(soft upbeat music) - Welcome to "At Issue."

I'm H. Wayne Wilson.

Thank you so much for joining us for a conversation about the Methodist Church.

The Methodist Church, in 1968, merged with the Evangelical United Brethren Church.

And now, the subsequent United Methodist Church is going through what is called a disaffiliation process where the church is splitting into possibly more than two parts.

We're going to talk about that disaffiliation process with two pastors here from Central Illinois.

First, let me introduce to you Reverend Eric Swanson.

He is the Pekin Grace United Methodist Church directing pastor, welcome to the program.

- Welcome, thanks for having me.

- [H. Wayne] And also with us is Dr. Bob Phillips.

Dr. Phillips is the Peoria First United Methodist Church retired directing pastor.

We thank you for joining us.

- Thank you.

- And let me say to the audience before we get started that you may see these two gentlemen on opposite sides, but you may see them on the same side because this is not a, you know, left and right decision.

This is a very complex situation and there's a lot of sameness between what we know as the United Methodist Church, the Free Methodist Church now, the Collegiate Methodist Church, Independent Methodist Churches.

So let's start with a definition.

First of all, how did we get here?

How did we get to this?

Because in 2019, there was a general conference of the United Methodist Church.

The vote was taken on the issue of LGBTQ.

It did not pass.

If I may use the term, the conservative side prevailed, but a disaffiliation process was put in place until the next general conference, which is 2024.

How did we get to this state in a short version?

- In a short version, general conference 2019 was called to deal with the single issue of human sexuality and how the church would respond to that.

And as you indicated, they essentially realigned or continued their alignment with a more traditional historic view of the nature of a marriage and similar related issues.

There was also a realization that many, in deep sincere conscience, did not believe that that reflected current truth and that the teaching of the church was unfair and unjust to those, say, who were in a committed same-sex marriage.

And so another approach was to include within the legislation a way for churches and individuals that honorably did not feel they could abide by the existing church teaching to exit honorably to continue their ministry consistent with their conscience.

And since that time, we had both the delay of the next general conference, which is to be every four years, but thanks to COVID, it was delayed till now 2024.

We had a number of conferences, churches, regions that said, "We do not agree in conscience with what the general conference decided regarding sexuality, and we will not obey it."

And you had a number of traditional churches and regions say, "That's not fair.

We don't think you can be selectively obedient to our common connectional system."

And so, out of that, this paragraph in our "Book of Discipline," our rule book, related to disaffiliation is now being used mostly by those who are more traditional who basically are saying, "We no longer want to fight about this.

We think folks that want to go one way should go that way and we want to go another."

And that's where it stands.

- Pekin Grace United Methodist is remaining United Methodist.

- Correct.

- Could you explain, and you didn't even have a vote- - Yeah.

- The decision to stay united?

- Yeah, we actually began a conversation before 2019 because we were anticipating what was going on with 2019 and making sure that our congregation was informed.

We've had some town hall meetings, stuff of that nature to talk about the various issues, whether it's about human sexuality, which is a major push within these conversations, but other issues within the denomination as well.

And our leadership board has subsequently decided that the majority of our congregation still feels aligned with the greater United Methodist Church.

And so staying with the United Methodist Church is where our heart is and where we will continue to be.

- If there was a vote, how does that process work?

What are the rules for becoming disaffiliated?

- Well, a church leadership team would begin that conversation, usually with the pastor and the leadership board making a decision to engage a formal process.

You would then engage the district superintendent, who's an administrative leader within our denomination helping cover a region.

And then you'd begin a series of conversations within your church to inform the congregation about the issues that you're having around disagreement with the stance or agreement with the stance on human sexuality, as well as the ramifications of a vote to leave, so the financial costs, the time, the membership, the voting rights.

I mean, everything that's aligned with being a part of an organization and leaving that would be discussed and outlined for you over a period of several months leading up to a final vote where a 2/3 majority would be required to vote your congregation out.

We learned, really at 2019, the votes were so close, like 50.1 to 49.9, we had a house divided.

And so that 2/3 majority is a reflection that a healthy division requires a healthy size of the congregation to go forward.

And a house divided of that tenseness that we've seen at the global level and the local level would be very harmful.

So we follow that kind of a pattern.

- Bob, is this a question just of human sexuality or is there more to it?

- Well, actually, in the big picture, human sexuality is a relatively minor role, though it's symbolically become the issue.

The United Methodist Church, in my judgment, has what other mainline churches have, which is called a wicked problem, a screen filled with targets and challenges that have all come together related from demographics, our modal age is 67, demographics of location, 80% of our congregations are located where 20% of the nation's population lives, trust deficits, that was outlined in a major study done by the denomination in 2010, dysfunctions in terms of how the system works, a sense of denial, theological dysphoria, confusion over who we are and what it means to use words such as disciple or resurrection of Jesus.

And so putting all this together, that has led to the result of a denomination with 55 years of sustained decline in our country and a need to push the reboot button, which, if we view this as a mitosis moment, a cell division, similar to what happened when the Protestants separated from the Catholics and produced a better Catholic church as well, or when the Methodists separated from the Church of England, or the Salvation Army formed out of the Methodist Church, if we see it in that way, we can remove a lot of the rancor of a bitter divorce or a civil war and see that this is a cell division at work so that all sides can look at it themselves and begin to take actions they need.

- Eric, with regard to the declining attendance, the declining membership, you've been concerned about that for a decade, if not longer.

- Yeah, my entire ministry.

Yeah.

- This division, might it harm that, might it exacerbate that decline?

Because now you're going there's Free Methodist, there's Global Methodist, there's the Collegiate Methodist, United Methodist, and Independent.

- I think it's twofold.

One, it addresses on a global level, yes, it will harm.

When you look at the total numbers of United Methodist persons, that obviously will decline as people choose to disaffiliate.

Our Global Council on Finance and Administration did a study where they estimated about 17 to 25% of the denomination, if conservative leaving, would leave.

And we're seeing about 20% leaving right now.

And that's split off between Global Methodist, Collegiate Methodist, and frankly, just Independent.

But then we also have the subtext of the local church level.

And there's many spots where local churches are still growing and thriving.

The congregation that I began control of as their pastor, not control of, but assumed leadership of as their pastor in 2019, even though we went through a season of COVID, facing age demographics, the average age was in the 70s, we have been able to reestablish even with death and COVID losses to get almost back to the number we were at when I arrived there in 2019 because we've been able to reach new people.

So on the fundamental level, the local church, no matter whether you're conservative or progressive or centrist, has a issue of needing to grow its metrics.

And I really believe that, on that local level, we'll see healthy change going forward as healthy leadership absorbs roles.

But for the denominational, you'll see a decline until there's a stabilization.

- Bob, the question about the declining membership, this is across the board- - Yes.

- regardless of Global, United, what have you.

And now you have a shortage of pastors as retirement, and you're retired, as retirement occurs, we don't have enough pastors to fill those slots.

So what does that portend for the future of the Methodist Church in general?

- Well, for the Methodist Church in general, it depends on the individual expression.

The United Methodist Church has its system for identifying, preparing, and growing clergy.

The Global Methodist Church, of which I became a part on June 1st, has an approach that focuses on a sleek and succinct process toward ordination with accountability and the like, fewer overlays of requirements and the number of years needed to check all the blocks.

And thus, at this point, there are more clergy than there are churches in the Global Methodist Church.

Also, there is an openness to seminaries, some in particular where there have been arrangements made and agreements signed for students, for example, at Asbury Theological Seminary, which is the largest Wesleyan-oriented seminary in the world, their second-largest contingent of students are Independent.

They're receiving a Wesleyan theological education and there is a great deal of eagerness for these younger students to align with Global Methodist congregations.

So they're exploring these new ways of seeking to identify the very real clergy shortage that has emerged, and not just with Methodists.

Other faith groups are dealing with this as well.

- And when Bob refers to Wesleyan, that's in reference to John Wesley?

- Yes.

- Do we say founder?

- That's a fair statement.

- So let's say that a church decides to disaffiliate from United Methodist, and I'd like both of you to address this particular issue.

It's a 2/3 vote, so let's say that those who were on the prevailing side, fine.

Those who are on the other side, what happens to them, they can either stay Global or Collegiate, whatever it is, and they really want to be United Methodist, what kind of options are there?

And for that matter, what kind of option is there for the pastor who might not be in line with that vote?

- Okay, if a church chooses to disaffiliate, without exception, those who did not vote that course of action are certainly welcome to remain.

It's the same thing if a church votes not to disaffiliate.

Those who disagree are welcome to remain.

If a person feels that they wish to remain United Methodist when the congregation has voted to disaffiliate, the conference leadership, United Methodist leadership, has a process in place for an honorable relocation as desired of their membership to a nearby United Methodist congregation until such time as the individual decides where he or she might wish to have their permanent membership reside with a United Methodist identity.

- And with regard to the pastor, what options are there for a pastor?

- Yeah, a pastor might choose to, if they're seeking to go Global, they might seek to go with the Global Methodist Church.

And if they do, they would surrender their orders to the bishop.

The bishop would mark that on their certificate of orders and then they would be able to choose to either join the Global Methodist Church or any other expression that would have them.

And if the church disaffiliated but the pastor wanted to stay, the pastor simply needs to inform their district superintendent and they would put them back into the pool to get a new church so that they can continue to serve the United Methodist Church.

As United Methodists, just going back to the laity for a second, we're really aware that, for those who do wish to stay United Methodists, that we need to reach out and care for them.

So for many of the churches where people are voting to disaffiliate, we make sure that every member has the right to choose yes or no whether they want to disaffiliate with that church.

If they choose to stay, we've been seeking to provide care for them by either helping them find another church, plant a church, or assume some form of annual conference-level membership until such time that they can make that decision.

- And then there's the question of pension for the pastor.

- Yep, and the first piece of business that passed in 2019 was actually to protect the pensions of all clergy.

And you see that our pension body, called Wespath, will protect the pension of anyone who has served in the United Methodist Church.

And a part of the disaffiliation process is a requirement of compensation for the local church that leaves to meet the unmet pension liability that they would bear as an individual church in the future before they leave.

So they would make sure that they were honoring those who had served them in the past.

- There's a question of the property.

Who owns the church?

Who does own the church?

- In the United Methodist system, a trust clause is part of the process, which is to say that local congregations have the property in trust, but it actually legally belongs to the annual conference, to the denomination.

And there's a historical reason for this.

When John Wesley in England in the 18th century found some local preachers who were using Methodist chapels or preaching stations to come up with some really wild and crazy stuff, so it was a way to hold the integrity of the message by saying, "If you're going to come up with a message that is not consistent with what we teach, we're not gonna let you use our property to do that."

Now, in the change for churches that say disaffiliate with the Global Methodist Church, the understanding is that the local church, comprised of the people who built and paid for buildings and such, that that can stay with them, that there's that level of trust, and that the issue of the original historic purpose for the trust clause no longer has the same sense of urgency as other matters today.

- So in essence, the congregants own the church, the physical church, so to speak.

- Yes, and the Global Methodists and some other expressions of Methodism as well.

- There are other issues.

We referenced the apportionment process.

How does that work?

- The apportionments, now, again, as we've talked previously, is not a word used in the Bible or in heaven or anywhere else, but it's a functional term that refers to the money a church gives to the denomination to help fund its ministries at the denominational level, missionary schools, the bureaucratic overlay, and I don't use the word bureaucratic in a disdainful manner.

And so what we find is, for the United Methodist Church, that amount tends to vary from 9 to 14% for a congregation.

And that is, the amount of money that they receive in a given year, the next year, that becomes the basis for determining that apportionment amount.

In the Global Methodist Church, for example, that percentage would be more like 5% because there is not the same overlay of organizational and denominational structure primarily, and also because of a decision that more money rest with the local congregation to dispense in support of their ministries.

- The apportionments that the United Methodist Church receives is intended in a lot of cases to be a tithe, like we ask a lot of people to consider in theirs.

And in part, the difference, as I've read the transitional documents from the Global Methodist Church, it's really on what we're prioritizing and what we're focusing on and what we'll assume is a local church's responsibility and what's a denominational responsibility.

So some of it goes to things like holding a bishop and district superintendents, some of it goes to supporting the mission funds, the different agencies that we have to help administer a global denomination.

And some of it also goes to making sure that the appointment process is maintained so that, if your pastor were to move, or tragically, if one passed away, that you would receive an appointment promptly, that the funds that are associated with the search aren't no longer there.

And so a part of it is just in a understanding when you talk about the apportionments and the dollars on what the prioritization of the denominations are, not right or wrong, just that they have different expressions in what those percentages represent.

- You mentioned mission, and there's an organization called COR- - UMCOR.

- Yeah, UMCOR, United Methodist.

And might that be harmed in terms of the money collected to help continue those missions because they are separate, now three or four possible Methodist churches?

- Yeah, definitely.

Any one of our boards and agencies, including our mission agencies when there's disaffiliation stand the risk of declining income.

We stand that risk even if we have a declining church if it was due to membership or any other cause.

And so our boards and agencies, though, especially our mission agencies, we are trying to keep as healthy as possible and really think strategically about how we can fund them, how we can partner with them, how we can do things in a way that still effectively allows us to be generous with the ways in which we share the gospel of Jesus, not only with the words that you hear on a Sunday morning, but with the actions that we uphold and do as a denomination.

- Yeah, there are a number of ways in which the apportionments, as Eric said, are utilized to these kinds of good ends.

When I was a pastor at Peoria First United Methodist, there was an issue that arose because one of the agencies supported by our apportionments, the Board of Church and Society, came out with a position that it still maintains, that Israel is an apartheid nation and that Caterpillar is an immoral organization because it sells tractors to Israel.

And therefore, the United Methodist Church should divest from and boycott Caterpillar, despite the fact that the United Methodist Secretary of State at the time, Hillary Clinton, said, "That's a crazy idea."

So we didn't send money to the General Board of Church and Society and that meant that we didn't get an award for being, you know, fully supportive of.

So those are some of the political sides of things that have also played into this for people when they get frustrated at the more general level at some of the positions that the church may take through its agencies without sufficient conversation with those who would be actually affected.

- I wanna turn to the Bible for just a moment, Revised Standard Version, the Good News Bible, King James, there's interpretation of several passages, Leviticus 18:22, there's Romans 1:26-28.

And you read these Bibles, and it's different in each Bible, as to the question of homosexuality.

How important, and translation has a lot to do with this, from Greek, Latin, Hebrew, German, how important is the interpretation of this with regard to this question of disaffiliation and the homosexuality issue?

- Well, the issue of interpretation is very important.

One of the gifts of John Wesley to the larger church was his saying that, "all opinions that don't strike at the root of Christianity, we think and let think."

So there's always been, in the Wesley understanding, a great freedom to think at all opinions that don't strike at the root of Christianity.

When it comes to this specific issue, on the one hand, there are seven verses that reference homosexual behaviors in the Old and New Testament, about the same number of references that one finds, say, to a behavior such as incest.

So it's not highly emphasized in that regard.

The understanding and the traditional interpretation, held for 2,000 years by Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, and today by 95% of world Christianity is that those passages that refer to moral behaviors, behaviors, are self-evident in the sense that they refer to, as you referenced to, like the Good News Bible says, "A man does not have sex with another man."

Something of that sort- - It's just plain and simple.

- Now, I know that one of the professors I studied under at Princeton, Bruce Metzger, was the general editor of the Revised Standard Version.

And I know personally and firsthand how he understood that, and that was just that there was no proviso that said, "In this situation, that's wrong.

But in other situations, it's okay."

Richard Hays, first from Yale and then from Duke, same thing.

It's dealing with the behaviors.

- And with that, we have run out of our half hour of time.

The conversation certainly needs to continue.

We appreciate Pastor Eric Swanson at Pekin Grace United Methodist Church, thank you for being with us, and also Dr. Bob Phillips, who is the Peoria First United Methodist Church retired directing pastor.

Thank you both for being with us on that issue.

We'll be back next time.

We're going to be looking at animals at Peoria and Miller Park Zoos that are on the endangered list, and what those zoos are doing to make sure we don't lose them to extinction, on the next "At Issue."

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