(dramatic orchestral music) - The Spring Session of the Illinois General Assembly is drawing to a close, but not before news from the Federal Courthouse in Chicago rocked the State House at mid-week.

Joining me now on "Illinois Lawmakers" is Amanda Vinicky, corespondent for WTTW's "Chicago Tonight."

Amanda, you were on the job in Springfield this week when the story broke that a federal grand jury indicted Tim Mapes, the former Chief of Staff to former House Speaker Mike Madigan on charges of perjury and attempted obstruction of justice.

It's all connected to the ongoing bribery investigation into the utility giant Commonwealth Edison.

What was it like in the Capitol when the news broke?

- Well, I mean, shocking given that Tim Mapes had been the guy who ran the House.

I mean, for so long the Capitol was run by of course, Speaker Michael Madigan, and then his right-hand man, his kind of everything, the guy who actually was on the floor calling the shots, running, keeping the trains going on time, that was Tim Mapes.

And so, I think to have this come down, particularly you can't help but notice the timing of course, that this occurred in the final throes of the legislative session, particularly when a big energy bill is on that agenda, you can't help but notice because the energy bill, because of course, as you noted, Jak, that this is part of that ongoing investigation into corruption that ties into corruption that ComEd has admitted to a long-running bribery scheme, trying to influence Madigan.

Madigan, not charged, but pretty much everybody else at this point who was very close to him has been.

- What exactly is Mapes accused of doing?

What are the Feds trying to find out from him?

- So, this is something that I talked to a lot of people and they're kind of almost confused, didn't get it.

Because Mapes, not a dumb guy by any means.

And he was granted immunity to testify before a grand jury answering questions, as very clearly this still ongoing federal investigation seeks to get the dirt on Madigan.

He'd been asked a lot of questions about Madigan and another individual close with Madigan who has been indicted, and that's former lobbyist, Mike McClain.

And in response to many of these questions, Tim Mapes said, "I don't recall.

"I don't recall, I don't know."

He has been charged with perjury and you know, essentially lying because the Feds say, wait, how would you not know?

You didn't answer that.

We have phone tapes where you are in discussions.

We have emails between you and McClain.

So you did know.

And again, this is sort of where some of the confusion in the Capitol.

Mapes had to have been well aware that these emails and phone calls existed.

His attorneys have said that the questions he was asked were vague and that he did nothing to perjure himself, that he entered, he answered honestly about events from long ago that he may not have remembered years down the line.

- And we should point out that Speaker Madigan, or former Speaker Madigan has not been charged in connection with the investigation.

He has denied any wrongdoing.

And as you pointed to, Mapes' attorneys basically came out and said that there were problems with the questions he was asked.

It was a long time ago.

He did not intentionally mislead the grand jury.

- Exactly.

It still seems like he was perhaps playing with fire.

Maybe that's the rote response, "I don't recall," because how can you say whether somebody recalls or not?

But when you have somebody like Mapes' reputation for having quite the steel trap of a memory, that's where I think that there's some who find that an incredulous response.

- One of the things of course, that this is, could throw a monkey wrench into is the negotiations to get a new energy bill through here in the last closing days of the session.

And of course Exelon and Commonwealth Edison are trying to get rate subsidies to keep some nuclear power plants open.

They had a high number that they were wanting to be approved by the Legislature and then go back to the rate payers.

All of this was complicated enough from what we know, and then you throw this on top of it.

- Yeah, you have to wonder if this is a signal from the Feds, "Hey, watch what you're doing.

"Remember this whole scheme over there, "Illinois legislators?"

Just a very bright blinking reminder of what has gone on.

But maybe oddly enough, Jak, this will actually make negotiations move and reach some point of agreement, because from what people have been saying, Exelon not really willing to move up from, move away from their very high number of this subsidy that they want rate payers to pay.

So, maybe something like this will move Exelon off of that number, realize that they can't get it and lead to some sort of agreement.

- We've got about one minute left.

Remapping for legislative districts and supreme court districts, appellate court justice districts, a very big story this week as well.

Democrats have thrown their map down on the table.

Republicans are furious because it puts so many of their candidates at risk.

Will there be a map by the end of the month?

Actually, by the end of June?

- Yeah, I mean, Democrats have the power.

They have the votes to pass a map regardless of all of the grumbling from Republicans.

And by the way, not just the GOP this time.

It is pretty striking.

There've been some hearings on redistricting, and the community groups who have been part of this, be it the Latino Policy Forum, MALDEF, Black Chamber of Commerce, Asian Americans Advancing Justice, they're all really upset by these maps, as well.

And so I do expect, however, that Democrats are going to listen to all of that and say, "Okay, thank you very much.

"Move along and pass maps that are in their interest," whether it's this one or probably we'll see actually a second draft.

We'll get a new form of maps and that's what will be voted on in the next coming days.

- Amanda Vinicky, thank you so much for your time.

Always appreciate it.

- Thanks.

- Senate President Don Harmon joins us now on "Illinois Lawmakers."

Good to see you, sir.

Thanks for making time for us during this very busy week.

- Good to see you, as well.

Thanks for having me.

- The big topic this week of course has to do with the legislative redistricting map that's been drawn up by Democrats over the past few months.

You revealed what the contents of the map are on Friday of last week.

And Republicans are not very happy with it at all, since it draws a lot of their members into the same districts, and they are promising a big fight in days to come.

- Well, we're in the middle of our redistricting hearings, following the publication of the maps.

We're taking public input.

Happy to make adjustments to the maps as warranted by that public input.

But by and large, I think we've accomplished what we set out to do, which was to draw fair districts that reflect the diversity of the state and make sure that all communities of interest are heard.

If Republicans have particular ideas, we're eager to see their proposed map, and happy to consider whatever suggestions they might make.

- But at the end of the day, though, this is Democrats are still in the driver's seat in the House and the Senate, and this basically solidifies your party's control over the General Assembly for the next 10 years, whatever the maps ended up being.

- The maps are intended to be fair maps that reflect the diversity of the state.

I think that the composition of the General Assembly has been fairly consistent with the political views of Illinois voters.

And I would expect that would be continued.

- What numbers are being used to actually craft the maps on the democratic side?

The actual census numbers aren't in yet.

- The Census Department has of course released the American Community Survey numbers.

We learned that other states were using that dataset to construct their map and explored that.

We had testimony from a redistricting expert in committee this week, that the survey data is actually historically very similar to the final census data.

So we're confident that the data set we're using is consistent with the eventual census data.

- You said earlier in the discussion that this map is a fair map that reflects the ethnic diversity of the state of Illinois.

How does it work out for minority populations in the state, as far as those districts are being drawn for inclusivity and for fair representation?

- We've done our best to follow the Voting Rights Act.

And the important ingredient there is maintaining the continuity of Voting Rights Act districts.

And I think we've lived up to our obligations both legally and morally to make sure voices of the African-American and Latino communities are heard.

- I want to talk next about the budget.

There's been some motion in recent days on that.

The state's fiscal numbers are looking better in terms of tax receipts coming in.

Some of the discussions now center on using state money to pay back some of the money that we borrowed earlier in the fiscal year to get through this fiscal year.

- You know, if you'd told me 14 or 15 months ago that the financial picture would be as optimistic as it is, I would have questioned you.

We thought at the beginning of the pandemic that the economy was gonna go off of a cliff.

And believe me, there were enormous disruptions for countless families across the state and the country.

It is not a rosy picture at all.

But the aggregate numbers have been much better than what we were bracing for.

And as a result, the federal borrowing that we took to ensure we would get through the pandemic, we're gonna be able to pay back early.

And I'm very pleased that there's alignment with the Governor and the Speaker of the House and myself and our caucuses on trying to make sure when that happens that we are financially prudent and good stewards of taxpayer dollars and that we pay our debts.

- In terms of the federal dollars that are coming in, so, over $8 billion.

Now, as far as we know this, these are one-time funds.

How do we build a future budget for the state of Illinois based on one-time numbers?

- Well, you hit the nail on the head, and it's something that we've all been talking about.

These are one-time numbers or one-time funds.

They will not be here a year from now or a year after that.

So we can't build them into the budget in terms of new or expanded programs.

We can use them to offset some revenue shortfalls in key areas, but mostly we have chance to invest in ways that will help our economy rebound.

There are certainly parts of the economy that were hit harder by the pandemic; the convention business, the tourism business, the hospitality industry, that all revolve around it need a kickstart to get back up to speed.

We can use the money to do some of those things that are responsible.

There are also some one-time expenditures that could bend the arc of the state.

We've been wrestling with affordable housing as an example, of an issue that was made all the more starkly revealed by the pandemic.

We could invest over the next two or three years in meaningful affordable housing programs that might leave us off better off than we started.

- Governor Pritzker of course, has been pressing for closing tax loopholes of about $923 million if I remember the number correctly.

Republicans oppose those, saying that those are vital for the business community in the state of Illinois.

Are closing those tax loopholes still on the table at this point?

- I think at this point, what we need to determine is what's a tax loophole and what is a tax expenditure?

My Republican colleagues would say, as you said, these are vital for job creators.

My view is this.

The reason these tax expenditures exist is to spur employment and job creation.

There's nothing wrong with bringing 'em out and putting 'em on the table and inspecting them to see if they're working.

And I would expect businesses across the state would be eager to come to a Senate Committee hearing to explain how this tax expenditure that is generating jobs.

If they're working, we can leave them in place.

If they're not working, we should reconsider.

- What about energy reform this session?

There are a number of bills trying to work their way through the process.

Still a lot of negotiations to be done here in the closing days.

What do you expect to happen?

- That is one of the most difficult and contentious areas of negotiation in the final days of session.

I'm still cautiously optimistic we will be able to deliver a meaningful energy package, one that balances the needs of the existing workforce with the energy future of Illinois.

We have always viewed it as a competitive advantage to have reliable and affordable power.

And we need to make sure for rate payers in particular, that we maintain that.

We all saw recently what happened in Texas as a result of not investing in the energy infrastructure.

We never want that to happen in Illinois.

At the same time, I'm not keen on bailouts for multi-billion-dollar corporations that are happy to have the state overpay to ensure the reliability of the energy system.

- We've got about a minute to go here.

Will there be an elected Chicago School Board?

And if so, what will it look like?

- That's a great question.

And after the energy negotiations, that may be the next most complicated and contentious negotiation.

There is certainly an appetite, and I have supported an elected Chicago School Board.

Chicago is the only school district in the state without an elected school board.

We're just trying to make sure that whatever we do, we get it right, that there is an orderly transition from an appointed school board to an elected school board.

- Senate President Don Harmon.

Thank you so much for your time on "Illinois Lawmakers."

We appreciate you making the time for us has always, sir.

Thank you very much.

- Glad to be back with you.

- We continue the conversation on "Illinois Lawmakers" with Representative Tim Butler.

Representative, thanks for joining us.

- Absolutely, happy to be here.

It's been awhile, I'm glad to be back on "Lawmakers."

- You know, the big topic this week that we've got to dive right into is the redistricting issue.

A couple of maps have been released as we record this.

We haven't seen the Congressional maps yet.

But the Republican reaction has been, wait a minute.

We're not using census numbers.

This isn't a fair process.

Can you explain that a little bit more?

- Sure, there's many of us that have advocated for years to get the map-making process out of the hands of politicians, give it over to a non-partisan commission, a bipartisan commission.

That's what many of us have advocated for.

Unfortunately, that's not the process that's taking place this spring.

Once again, we're seeing that the majority is drawing maps behind closed doors with really out, without really input from the public when it comes to actually drawing the maps.

And beyond that, we have a unique situation this year because of the lengthy delay in the census, that we don't have the numbers, the actual, the decennial census numbers that we've used every time to draw maps.

Those won't come out until August.

So right now a map was unveiled last week, last Friday, that was a PDF just to start with.

You couldn't get down on the granular level.

But it was using what's called American Community Survey data, which goes out to about 200,000 folks in Illinois.

And that's about it out of a state of 12.8 million people.

And it's just an estimate.

It's a poll basically.

And that's what the Democrats are using to draw the maps.

And we believe that that data is wildly inaccurate for using it in the redistricting process.

It has huge margins of error, especially when you get down on the local level, the block level for where you live and things like that.

And we believe that's a real problem for drawing the maps.

And beyond that, the map that was unveiled a few days ago, certainly I think anyone can tell is a very partisanly drawn map that maximizes the Democrats' power and minimizes the Republicans'.

- Still the Democrats hold control of the Legislature and the Governor's office.

How far do you think the Republican party and other opponents are willing to go in terms of challenging this map if it does pass before the end of session?

- Well, I think the first thing is that the Governor needs to be held to his word that he will veto a partisan map.

His office has said that.

The Governor said that he would support a commission as well when he ran for office.

And obviously that went by the boards; it's something that he didn't follow through with.

But we believe the Governor should veto these maps, 'cause at the end of the day, whether it's the map today or one that comes out in the next few days, it's gonna be one that we think is incredibly partisan.

And the Governor said he would veto it.

So I think that's the first step.

If the Governor does not veto that, then look, every 10 years redistricting is litigated.

Not just in Illinois, but around the country.

This is one of the most litigated things that we do as a governmental body, as a legislative body.

So I am sure that there will be organizations that will file lawsuits.

We've heard a lot of testimony from a lot of very good advocacy groups that have huge concerns across the political spectrum, very honestly, with the fact that this data will be inaccurate.

And I think the potential for litigation is very high for this as we move past the phase where potentially the Governor would sign a political map.

I just think that's probably something that is on the horizon.

- A highly partisan issue, this hangs over yet another big issue, and that's the budget that has to be passed by Monday at midnight.

How do you think those negotiations are going?

Is the map a bargaining tool as a part of that?

- Well, the map is certainly not any sort of bargaining tool on our end.

We are very straightforward on the fact that we believe the decennial census data which comes out in August should be used.

And the fact that we don't believe that the maps should be drawn by politicians.

As for the budget, you know, I think there are a lot of discussions up until the last few days with Republicans when it came to the budget.

I talked to our top budgeteer Tom Demmer last night, who said that we've basically been shut out of the process so far, which is a similar pattern we've seen in the past.

They engage us early on, then the Democrats get behind closed doors and come up with a budget.

And we've got real issues here.

We have a lot of federal money coming down the pike that we believe should be used to pay for our bills that we owe to people who do business with the state of Illinois.

And beyond that, we will continue to have probably a billion to a billion and a half dollar budget fall we need to fill.

And being shut out of those conversations is not very helpful.

So I think we're going to see over the next few days probably a budget that comes out that will be interesting to see how they, you know, string it together to try to get it done.

But we continue to have huge structural budget problems here in Illinois.

And the idea that we're gonna continue to expand programs, which has been one of the majority's signatures, is they want to continue money going into new programs instead of just, you know, shoring up the programs we have is a real problem.

But, you know, to be seen what happens and to be seen if more federal money comes down the pike as well.

- Just a few days left of the session.

I appreciate you taking the time during this busy week, Representative Tim Butler.

Thanks so much.

- Absolutely, thank you.

- Back on Illinois Lawmakers with Representative Carol Ammons, a Democrat of the Champaign-Urbana area.

Representative, thanks for joining us.

- Thank you so much for having me.

- The last week of session is always dominated with the budget, so I thought I would start there.

It's looking like things may come together a little more easily than you may have thought when session began.

Better than expected revenue estimates, and some help from the federal government.

Do you think things will shape up a fairly easy?

- I think it, I don't know about easy 'cause you know Springfield, but I do think that it will shape up.

You know, the financial health of our state is incredibly important, and the federal government's help has made this much easier than we anticipated back in January, actually in February when the Governor did his budget address.

Right now we're on track to really, really doing some great work around the budget.

The Governor's proposal really to basically pay back earlier than expected the money that we borrowed at the height of the pandemic, this is an incredible opportunity for the people of Illinois.

So we're excited about what the budget is looking like right now.

- One of the things that the budget can do in terms of policy is that you can put funding in places where you think that you need it.

I know that the Black Caucus had a very specific agenda at the start of this session and kind of moved along by the election of Chris Welch as the new Speaker of the House.

How do you think the Caucus' agenda is moving?

Are the priorities being addressed in your mind?

- We have worked with our Joint Caucus Chair, Sonya Harper, and the Senate members for us to build out the provisions within the Black Caucus Pillars, all the bills that were passed that were subject to appropriation.

And so, because of the, again, the budget is shaping up a lot better than we thought it would back in January, we've submitted requests to fund very important programs for our communities, which under normal circumstances, this might've been more difficult.

But now that we have the additional support from the federal government, our revenues projected have come in much higher than we thought that they would, we have put in additional resources for the Pillars so that we can fund things within community; afterschool programs that may need additional support for infrastructure building.

We're looking at ways to help grow healthy food in communities.

So some of the areas in the Pillars that needed this additional support, including the Commission for Inclusion, Historical Inclusion, that commission will also be funded.

So we're putting together our requests so that we can move forward with the Pillars.

And I believe the community will be very, very supportive ultimately what comes out in the budget process.

- When it comes to that package of bills, I wonder how you think that things are moving?

Outside of funding, there were a lot of priorities when it comes to police reform, education reforms, you mentioned some of the history that needs to be included in the curricula.

Are those things moving forward as quickly as you want?

Do you still feel the same momentum?

- You know what, things are moving forward actually.

I'm having a meeting very shortly here on the workforce development portion of the higher education pillar that really looked at trying to see how we are utilizing all of our workforce development in the state of Illinois across these 13 or 14 agencies, and how we can work together to consolidate them and provide a kind of one-stop shop for people who might have to return to the workforce and not know where to start.

So, that is moving ahead.

We have a report from the Governor's office already on the workforce development piece, which we're very excited about.

ISB has already moved on several of its commissions in task force, as well as our higher education with IBAG.

Things are moving ahead that can move ahead based on our timeline, but some things do need appropriations and those things we're working on.

- Certainly in the last several days of session.

A little less than a minute that we have remaining.

Redistricting hangs over every piece of legislation that you're going to try and pass in the next several days.

Do you think that these new legislative maps, and as we see them, the Congressional maps and others will get the support needed?

And is this just a partisan issue at this point?

- Well, redistricting is always historically a partisan issue.

We have done all that we can with the House Democratic Caucus hosting 45 public hearings throughout the state of Illinois, so that we can hear from the public to make sure we have fair and equal representation, and that communities of interest are protected ultimately in this map.

So, we believe that Illinoisans that will ultimately see these maps if they go to the website and check out the proposal, I think people will generally be supportive of what we've seen.

This proposal provides an opportunity to grow and build on all of the progress we've already made in Springfield.

So, I think that's the type of progress that people in Illinois really want.

And that's what they said at the ballot box as well.

So we look forward to finishing the process on the maps as well as the budget.

- As usual, out of time before we're out of topics.

Representative Ammons, thanks so much for your time.

- Thank you so much for having me on.

- That'll do it for us here on "Illinois Lawmakers."

For the entire team, I'm Jennifer Fuller.

Thanks for watching and we'll see you next week.

(dramatic orchestral music)