(bright music) - Welcome to "At Issue."

I'm H Wayne Wilson, Thank you for joining us.

This time, the conversation will be on a word called decolonization.

Base word, colony.

You may be familiar with the first definition, that's when a colony achieves independence, decolonization.

We're going to be talking about a different definition of decolonization with the curator of anthropology at Dickson Mounds Museum.

Logan Pappenfort is with us, thank you, Logan, for joining us.

- Thank you for having me, H. - And let's start by giving that second definition of decolonization.

We know that people are familiar with the superpowers of the 1700s, the 1800s.

For instance, Ghana achieved independence in 1957 from Great Britain.

So they were able to achieve that independence through this decolonization process.

Maybe we didn't use that term back then, but we do today.

What is this new definition?

- So this new definition of decolonization is different from the example of Ghana, but in many ways, it also has its roots in freedom.

And so that is that decolonization is taking the colonial or Eurocentric aspect that we tend to look at things through in our current modern day society and deconstructing that and looking at it from new perspectives.

And one of those perspectives when we're talking about decolonization that we look at really heavily is from the Native perspective.

So we essentially look at it not from the point of the colonizers or the Europeans that came after the discovery of the Americas but from the perspective of the people that have been here since time immemorial.

- And Dickson Mounds is part of this decolonization discussion.

Dickson Mounds, for the audience's benefit, is a part of the Illinois State Museum.

And Dickson Mounds since 1927 has had displays with Native American artifacts, et cetera.

In fact, Don Dickson started it when he discovered a burial mound down in Fulton County in 1927, the state took it over in 1945.

And how is decolonization, just real broad perspective, how is it impacting Dickson Mounds in terms of how you interpret local Native American history?

- So when we're looking at it from the lens of Dickson Mounds State Museum and how we're interpreting the history of the Central Illinois River Valley, the main thing we're looking out of decolonization is how we're telling these narratives and these stories.

So for example, in the past, these stories have always been told from the perspective of the outside or looking back, whereas the perspective that we're looking at it now is a continuous line of history, stretching back from 13,000 years ago and further to the modern day as one continuous line.

- I wanna talk more about that in just a moment, but just to refresh memories, it was about 1992 when there was controversy, obviously there was controversy over Dickson Mounds because of the display of Native American remains.

Then the decision was made by then Governor Jim Edgar that yes, we are going to shut down that portion of the Dickson Mounds display, believe it's cedar boards that covered it up.

They weren't reinterred, they were just cedar boards permanently placed over the remains.

Can you reflect back on that?

And I don't wanna get into the political aspects of it, but can you reflect back on that and how this new perspective is a chance to tell a different story?

- Absolutely, and so one of the things that we're looking at with this new perspective and the stories we're trying to tell are ones that put Native people first.

And that act of putting those cedar boards over the ancestors is one thing that we are trying to have a different perspective to address, to say that this is their resting place, this is a cemetery and has always been a cemetery and a very sacred place for Native people, and as such it should be a place that is a center for Native knowledge and giving agency and voice to those people.

- We wanna talk more about that and how the displays may change, but in 1990, there was the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, and repatriation returning.

And Illinois seemed to lag behind other states in terms of embracing that act.

What was the holdup?

Why was there a delay?

And I know that part of the problem was these tribal groups coalesced over time.

It wasn't just the Peoria Tribe or the Kaskaskia Tribe.

Was that part of the problem?

Or what else was involved in this?

- So I think part of the problem back in the '90s when NAGPRA first passed, and Illinois State Museum and Illinois as a state did do NAGPRA for things from 1673 forward, but the area that they struggled with was the area before 1673 and what was termed as culturally unidentifiable.

And so one reason that Illinois has lagged behind is as NAGPRA, as the law, and as practices have moved forward within the field to address some of these challenges, the Illinois State Museum in the past had not continued to reach out to tribal nations and pursue how to best return these ancestors and funerary objects to their descendant communities.

And so I think what's happening now is that we are reaching out, working collaboratively with our tribal partners to do what should have been done years ago.

- How do you go about making sure that there is some sort of ancestral connection in terms of, because there really wasn't much of a written language back then, and so with these tribes that have coalesced and fissioned over time, is there a method that you're using to say, "Yes, there is a connection here"?

- So we use lots of different methods to determine the people that would've been in this area.

So we use occupational history, we use treaty information, we use oral traditions from tribal partners, we use language groups.

And so all those cumulatively come together to help us make a determination of who to contact for consultation and to work collaboratively with these nations in order to make sure that everyone who has a history in the Central Illinois River Valley and Illinois in general has a say in that consultation process.

- Because there was, I'm gonna use the word overlap between these tribal groups, does that make your job more difficult?

Even using the oral traditions, et cetera, because, and this goes back quite a ways, but the Mississippian and the Oneota overlapped for a period of time as the Mississippians declined.

So does that complicate the issue?

- So that was a thought back in the early days of NAGPRA, that that would complicate the issue, but in my experience working within NAGPRA work for the past almost decade, tribes generally work very well together, and as long as everyone's in the room having that conversation, the overlap is not really as much of an issue as you might expect.

Because generally if there are two tribes that have an occupational territory that overlaps, the tribes will be able to work among themselves to figure out who is the one that makes the claim or if they decide to make the claim jointly.

- I wanna make sure the audience understands this isn't just about the 234 or so remains at Dickson Mounds, this is a broader issue.

And you're working in collaboration with your counterpart down at the Illinois State Museum, Brooke Morgan.

- Correct.

- How is that process working, that collaboration in trying to make sure that the state does communicate with these tribal groups and repatriation can occur in a proper manner?

- So one of the big things that we always try to work with, me and Brooke work very closely together on this particular consultation project, and one of the things we try to do is maintain constant communication with not only each other but with tribal partners.

And in that vein, we do have regular check-in meetings with tribal partners.

And since I've been employed by the state, we've had full cooperation from the leadership at both Illinois State Museum and Department of Natural Resources in order to get done what we need to get done as far as the consultation goes.

- How difficult was it to open that first door, if I may use the term, because decisions, when the Repatriation Act first occurred back in 1990, the decisions were more or less within the realm of the State of Illinois.

So there may have been some mistrust or distrust with these Native tribes.

How do they, how are they viewing you now?

- So I think that initially many tribes had that feeling of distrust or not quite knowing where we stood, but I believe now that we have shown a commitment to tribal partners, and we have continued to make strides step-by-step to building that trust and making sure that we are a reliable partner in this project.

And so, that is just one thing we continue to do and we're not where we need to be yet for true trust to be built, but we will continue to put one foot in front of the other and do that next right thing until we have that full trust from our tribal partners and the tribal community.

- But there are significant conversations between the state and the tribal groups?

- Yes, yes.

So there's active conversations between tribal groups as well as the state, and one examples of those is the input tribal nations had on the new burial law that just passed here recently.

- Another arena is for people who've been down to Dickson Mounds, when you go down the outside ramp and you go through the doors, the receptionist is on the right-hand side, and on the left-hand side is a room.

That room has been used for various displays, but it's a a new type of display in that this is a cooperative effort.

- Yes, so that was formally called the Emiquon Gallery and it was started as a gallery space to tell the story of the natural wetlands around Dickson Mounds.

And so one thing when we got there and we were looking at that space and how to move forward with that project, we were actually approached by the Peoria Tribe of Indians of Oklahoma with an idea for a grant.

And so that grant would be their grant with the museum, signing as a supporting organization.

And the Peoria Tribe has succeeded in that grant and has secured $50,000 to essentially create a exhibit talking about the occupational history in Emiquon from that Native perspective, which, in many cases, exhibits like this happen, but this is the first that I've heard of where the tribe is the primary writer for that grant and is in the driving seat, whereas the museum is the supporting one.

- We should point out that Dickson Mounds is a building where Don Dickson found the remains, but it's broader than that.

There are other mounds, there's Ogden-Fettie, et cetera.

Could you describe the total area?

- Absolutely.

So, I am slightly biased, but I find the area to be one of the most beautiful in Illinois.

And so this is a natural wetlands area, Emiquon is a fantastic sprawling wetlands, and among that wetlands there are many ridges and hilltops and mound sites that exist within that area.

Ogden-Fettie being one of them right there by the museum, another one being Larson, which is up on that ridge as a Mississippian village and would've been one of the main settlement areas for the people that were using Dickson Mounds as their cemetery.

- Do you work much in conjunction with the Nature Conservancy, and for the audience's benefit again, the Nature Conservancy operates Emiquon Preserve, which used to be a farm for 80 or 90 years, and they returned it to its natural Flag Lake and Thompson Lake and bringing back nature.

Is there a symbiotic relationship between Dickson Mounds and Emiquon Preserve?

- Absolutely, so Dickson Mounds is part of a group of partners in the area of natural wildlife researchers and organizations.

And we work actively with them, it's called the Emiquon Partnership.

And we work actively to make sure that we are supporting each other and supporting the research that is done, but also helping each other out for programs and outreach and things of that nature.

So yes.

- So, I wanna talk about Dickson Mounds itself other than the one display that you talked about.

How is this new approach where you talked about Dickson Mounds would be the supporting partner of this new display on the lower level.

How will the displays in general change, and what is the intent, what is your hope for what Dickson Mounds may represent in the future?

- So the hope and the intent for Dickson Mounds in the future is that once the museum has completed its repatriation and built that trust with tribal partners, to be able to work with tribal partners collaboratively, to re-envision the perspective that we are telling the story of the Central Illinois River Valley from.

And so when I say that, I mentioned earlier the continuous stream of history rather than looking back on history from an outsider's lens.

So with this, in using tribal oral tradition and ecological knowledge and many other factors, we hope to tell a more holistic and accurate representation of the history of the Central Illinois River Valley and how that plays in not only to the museum but also the area surrounding Emiquon and Chautauqua included.

And so we hope that that's something that all Illinoisans will value.

- Can you gimme some examples, because right now, just as as one example, there are a lot of arrowheads on display.

Will those kinds of things stay, and is there an example you could give, and I know this isn't all in concrete yet, but what people might physically see?

- Yes, absolutely.

So as far as things like arrowheads, bifaces, things of that nature, those are part of the telling of that story, so things of the nature will remain.

Our intent is to remain using archeology as a tool to tell this story.

And so one example, and this is one of my favorite examples that if anyone has visited the museum I've probably mentioned to them before, but in our museum, we have a cast of a pottery vessel that on it has a motif of a footprint underneath a river.

And in this pottery vessel, that footprint represents a story that my grandfather told me when I was about five years old.

And that's the story of the Piasakee.

And so Piasakee are supernatural dwarves in our tradition and our culture, and it was readily apparent to me when I first saw that depiction what it was talking about.

And so I envision having this oral tradition represented in a better way to educate the public about these stories and narratives that people are still telling today the reach back 2, 3,000 years into the past.

- You mentioned our tradition, so I should point out that this is personal to you because your great-great-great grandfather was George Washington Finley.

Can you tell me more about your family connection here?

- Absolutely.

So my great-great-great grandfather was George Washington Finley, and he was a full-blooded Piankashaw.

And so Piankashaw are part of the Peoria Tribe.

The Peoria Tribe is a Confederated tribe.

So among the Peoria, how we look at them today, there are the Peoria, the Kaskaskia, the Piankashaw, and the Wea.

and all those make what we call the Confederated Peoria.

And so this is personal to me because this essentially is home.

And 200 years removed, but it's home.

My family initially left Illinois in 1818, and I was hoping I could return by 2018 to make it a clean 200 years, but I returned in 2021, and it is personal.

And I brought my two-year-old daughter with me from Oklahoma to be raised in her ancestral homeland as one of the first of my people in hundreds of years.

- It's interesting to note that your family left in 1818, the year that Illinois achieved statehood.

- Mm-hmm.

- So I don't know if there was some reason for leaving that particular year, but (Logan chuckles) (chuckles) maybe they knew property taxes were going to go up, I don't know.

(Logan chuckles) So, let me go back to the displays and making sure that you communicate in a different way the history of the tribal groups.

This is going to cost money.

- [Logan] Mm-hmm.

- How are you going to go, and I know there's a grant for that lower-level display that you were talking about, but how are you going to go about funding all of this?

- So our goal with that is that we will be actively pursuing grants to help fund these renovations and re-imagining of these exhibits.

And obviously there are supporters of us through the Illinois State Museum Society, but one of the big things is going to be grants.

And with grants comes not only getting the grant but managing those grants and making sure we stay on task to accomplish this.

And so we imagine that that process will be one that while we're not ready to start looking for those grants now, we're thinking about what type of grants we might end up going for.

And so it will be a lot of grant funding to fund this, 'cause unfortunately money makes the world go round.

(both chuckle) - So, I'd like to talk about how the state is doing right now, because part of that act of 1990 was repatriation, and I don't know how many, there's thousands of remains and funerary items, et cetera, in Illinois' collection.

Is the intent to have at least some of those go back to the tribal groups, or is there a process in place here?

- Yes, so anything that we consider as ancestors or associated funerary objects, our goal is to consult with tribal partners and to repatriate those to the tribes.

And so when I say repatriation, at the end of that goal is to transfer control of those ancestors and objects to the tribes and to give them agency to do what they need to do with their own ancestors and their own objects.

- Is there an issue with some tribal groups?

Because the United States government doesn't recognize every single tribal group.

And is there some faction saying, "Well we can't do that because the US hasn't recognized that group and so therefore, not being recognized, we can't interact with them"?

- In the consultations that I've been engaged with with Illinois, we haven't run into that issue as of yet.

But due to the nature of NAGPRA, federally-recognized tribes are how we usually have to quantify that.

And so that's who we're actively working with, are those federally-recognized tribes.

- But that may expand in the future as that trust builds up and as you move further down the path of cooperation.

- Yeah, potentially it could.

- Mm-hmm.

How big is the staff at Dickson Mounds?

- So we currently have six full-time staff members right now.

- So this makes it difficult because your vision is quite significant.

- Mm-hmm.

- With six full-time staff, and I know you have some contributors, you know, people like Alan Harn, who's been there forever.

- Mm-hmm.

- Does a wonderful job, but he's retired.

How do you go about moving forward at the speed that you want?

(Logan chuckles) Or are you not moving forward at this moment?

- Well, so, what's one of the biggest challenges we have is the capacity to do the work.

And so the best way I've looked at approaching that is we take the small victories as we can, and as I mentioned earlier, we put one foot in front of the other towards that goal.

And I think that as momentum builds for this kind of act and these kinds of actions, we will see more and more support from those outside forces, but it's my hope also that within the organization of Illinois State Museum and DNR as a whole, we can move forward altogether collaboratively and make these big goals and visions I have a reality.

- And to follow his progress, you can go to www.illinoisstatemuseum.org, and then when you see that, you'll see Dickson Mounds is one of the items where you can click on that icon.

So, illinoisstatemuseum.org and click on Dickson Mounds.

Before I say thank you to Logan Pappenfort, I would like to have a moment to say something personal.

I've been covering news for 57 years in the State of Illinois, started in college at Illinois Institute of Technology in 1966.

For the past 45, or 35 years, gee whiz.

(chuckles) For the past 35 years, I've been the host of "At Issue."

"At Issue" started with me in 1988.

As time moves on, it's time to say goodbye to all of you.

The process over the last 35 years has been very educational to me, I hope you have learned along with me.

And I will say that this is my last "At Issue."

I thank the viewers for having been regular viewers of "At Issue."

And as I turn to Logan Pappenfort and say thank you for joining us on "At Issue," I appreciate you being the last guest on "At Issue."

I turn to you and the audience and say thank you for being with me.

Until I see you again, I bid you all adieu.

(bright music)