[Upbeat music] - Sheriff Jim Cooper has tackled some of the region's most pressing challenges from homelessness and mental health to criminal justice reform and building bridges with communities of color.

Today, Sheriff Cooper joins us to explore his philosophy on effective policing, the toughest issues facing Sacramento County, and how his unique journey shapes his vision for public safety.

Welcome Sheriff Cooper.

- Thank you, Scott.

Appreciate you having me.

- Sure.

I wanna start with this, you know, law enforcement carries a balance between protecting public safety, but also some compassion for those populations that tend to be the most vulnerable, especially those experiencing homelessness or mental health challenges.

How do you thread that needle as the sheriff of Sacramento County?

- Well, number one, my experience helps me 15 years as a mayor and councilmember in Elk Grove.

Im in my thirty-third year in the Sheriff's office.

I served eight years in the state legislature in the assembly.

So I bring a lot of experience to the table that helps me make these decisions.

And it's interesting on, on homelessness a big issue.

It's at the forefront.

We see it.

And that's the part that really I find fascinating is we spend over $24 billion on homelessness.

It's gotten worse.

You cannot build your way out of it.

And a lot of folks wanna do that.

But until you address the issues of mental illness and substance abuse, we're never gonna fix it.

And we don't have robust systems in either one of those.

And what we found in doing our enforcement actions, going out there and getting folks to try and come outta the off the street for housing, a lot of folks refuse services.

And the reason they refuse services is because the addiction to drugs or alcohol and mental illness.

So it, it is tough to do that.

Until we change that narrative, things will not change.

And that's really the biggest issue.

A lot of folks don't wanna talk.

And we've seen it day in and day out.

The public has how some of these folks are through no fault of their own, but there are folks that wanna have them have freedom.

Even that means walking naked down the street, eating out of a trash can.

So at some point, someone has to be the adult in the room and make those decisions.

And that's really what it comes down to.

And I'm talking about conservancy for some of these people.

- Well, the way you phrase, the - Or I'm sorry, conservatorship way that you phrase that is really interesting because one of the things that it does appear that there's a shift on currently is that there has been an era, at least for the last 20, 25 years within this region where it is that let's provide services, let's be compassionate, but there is no reciprocal accountability and we can't ask for accountability.

The notion is we can't ask for accountability for those who are under duress for whatever it is that the issue is that they're facing.

Is there a balance where it is that in addressing the homelessness issue, there is compassion, but there is room for accountability for those who it is that that can exercise their own independent agency.

But then as you just closed with that, for those who are not capable of that, there have to be progressive measures.

Can you speak to that?

- So there is a balance.

So when I started, I came in office two and a half years ago.

For the most part, law enforcement stayed outta the homeless encampments at zero enforcement.

So I said, Hey, we're gonna go in and we're gonna keep stats and get data 'cause data's king.

And, and what I want is offer 'em help.

And if they don't want help, then we'll deal with it.

But we also asked about sexual assaults.

No one had ever talked about that.

The number of women being assaulted, being raped and sexually assaulted in these camps is dramatic.

And to me, you deserve protection, whether you're housed or unhoused.

So we talked about that.

Also, it didn't matter if you were on the wait waiting list to get into housing, whether you were a man or a woman with children, you were treated the same.

We got that change where a woman and children come first and a man living by himself on the streets.

So I, I think it's worked.

And we have a lot of crime, a lot of drug dealing in these camps.

So a lot goes on.

So if someone's involved in criminal activity, we'll deal with them.

If you wanna get help, we're gonna help you.

But it's really the carrot and the stick on this.

And, and so many folks don't wanna do that.

For so long, law enforcement didn't enforce the law in the camps.

And it's not sweeps, it's going in there and making sure they're safe as anybody else.

And that's really made a difference in the county versus other jurisdictions here in Sacramento.

- So how do you respond to those who say that having the sheriff or any of the, the other local enforcement agencies be involved in going into the camps and one, enforcing the law is one thing, but that a number of your officers are more like social service workers and that now there's a, a good and a bad.

They say, look, the sheriff shouldn't be doing social service work.

On the other hand, they say, but we need some of their money so that we can send in people that are better trained and better positioned to do that.

How, how do you view that issue?

- It, it's a balance.

And we have some great officers or deputies that go out day in and day out.

They have relationships and they work with these people.

And sometimes it takes maybe four or five times to convince someone to go into housing.

And, and it works.

It's not foolproof.

But with the social services, the way they act, they just drag it out for a long time.

And as you said earlier, this has been going on for 20 years.

It has been ineffective.

There's no accountability.

- What do you mean drag it out?

- If they'll let someone just stay there and just talk to 'em again and again and again.

And that person never comes to conclusion, Hey, I need to better myself and get off the streets and get into housing.

'cause some folks will never make that decision unless it's forced upon them.

And that's the big issue I see coming in and, and and being that carrot in the stick trying to work with folks.

But at some point.

- But you do believe in a carrot and stick approach.

- I do.

Absolutely.

Because up until now, there's been no accountability.

We, they're pretty much left their own devices to do whatever they wanted.

And we've seen how, what has happened with that.

It's, and the thing about that, the public sees it day in and day out and the public was fed up with it .

Prop 36 - - So you, so you've noticed that change in attitude yourself then?

- Yes, 100%.

But like I said, data is king.

You have to have data out there.

So before no one talked about it at the government level, who's refusing service.

They never talked about it.

They knew it was out there, but we've talked about it.

The number of folks that refuse service, they, they still want it.

So what do you, so what do you do then?

- You're starting to bring up Prop 36.

- Yes.

- And the whole issue of criminal justice reform.

You have not been a complete supporter of criminal justice reform.

What have been the challenges with criminal justice reform that you think actually have taken a step backwards rather than forwards?

- Well, there are some bad reforms.

There were also some good reforms, but it's gone on for 10 years.

And Prop 36 is a good one with Prop 47 in 2014.

So when I was in the legislature, I ran multiple bills to try and change Prop 47, the theft piece, because we saw it, you're in the store, things are locked up, you see folks walking out and not paying for things.

And that was a big deal to the public.

But I couldn't get it outta the public safety committee.

So I actually ran my own ballot measure previous to Prop three, six in 2020, prop 20 it, it lost.

We had billionaires come in and fund it money against it.

Same thing with Prop 36.

But the reason Prop 36 passed, it had gotten so bad, Scott, and think about that same year it passed, you had over 20 bills in the legislature that were introduced that dealt with theft issues that never saw a lot of day up until then because the public was mad and it had gotten so bad.

- Well, well, as an example, I, I can tell you that it is a frustration when you go into your local drugstore, whatever the brand is that you go into.

'cause I experienced this myself.

They're understaffed and everything's locked up behind a glass case.

Now.

You know, the staff will apologize and say, well that's because there's so many thefts.

I was down in San Diego and I watched somebody walk out of a store with two cases of beer, - Right.

- And the staff just said, well, you know, we can't do anything about it anyway.

And the cops, they're not gonna come.

So what's the point?

But what it's done is prices go up and frankly, it's become a big inconvenience.

- Right?

We had an outlet store here in Sacramento, in that national chain, they were number one in theft, number one in theft.

And that, that, that's crazy.

We all pay more.

You see, stores close prices are going up.

And, and I think because it was in your face and it was, it was visceral real with the public, that's where they got angry and, and really supported prop 36, 70% statewide.

Even in San Francisco, even in LA but no statewide official endorsed it.

And not many folks in the legislature.

So you see the polling, you know, people are full strongly about it.

Yet as a leader, you don't engage.

It's a disconnect.

- So I know that being a sheriff is a non-partisan office.

Okay.

But you've been registered as a Democrat?

Correct?

- Yes.

Yes.

- Okay.

I was at a dinner in, in Washington, DC a couple of months ago, and I was sitting with a couple of people from conservative think tanks, and they said the following, they said, California is a state where Democrats completely control the state politically statewide offices and the like, have absolute veto proof majorities.

And you're the home of the tech industry, which prints money constantly.

So you have all the money and you have all the power.

And what is the reason that you all can't solve problems like crime and homelessness when supposedly people from our, and they're talking about themselves, our political point of view, can't interfere with it.

Right.

What's your response to that?

As somebody who's been mayor, an assembly member, and now elective sheriff?

- Most of that's true.

It is a disconnect out there.

There are some folks, not everyone that feel that, you know, they want no accountability.

A lot of things have happened in the past, but they want zero accountability.

And that does not do our state any justice.

And that's really been the big issue.

Like I said, there were some needed reforms that got passed, but when you look back upon it, a lot of things have transpired.

And has it gotten worse?

Yes, it has gotten worse.

Crime is number one.

Before crime was always down there, very low, six or seven.

But with the theft pieces, the human trafficking, the homelessness, people see it.

And people are fed up and they want something done.

They're still compassionate.

Mind you.

But Democrats control this.

We've been in power for a long time.

So we own a big piece of this.

100%.

But it's interesting 'cause the capitol, when you're in the legislature, they vote in a void.

California is much more moderate middle of the road than people think.

- Really?

- But that's not, yes, it is.

We are, but it's not reflected in the legislature.

You come up here, you're, you're voting and your constituents have no idea what you're voting on.

Rarely do you get phone calls unless someone, you know, labor or somebody else says they got folks calling in and having you email for a certain issue.

But for most votes, and we vote on 3000 bills a year, you don't hear from your constituents.

- If there was one issue related to criminal justice reform that needs to be changed because of an unintended consequence, what would it be?

- Too many to to mention here and not enough time.

Way, way too many.

- Way too many?

Okay - Yeah.

Well even like they, they passed a bill recently.

Human trafficking of a child is a violent felony.

Up until then, it wasn't.

And that's a big issue.

And you think about some of these things.

So right now in California, these crimes are felonies, but they're not violent felonies, raping and drugging a woman, domestic violence, bombing a place of worship.

So if the law changed on that, all it would do is not allow you to be eligible for early release.

So you would basically do most of your time instead of getting out early.

So I think if you rape and drug a woman, or you bomb a synagogue or a mosque, or you're convicted of domestic violence, maybe you should stay in there and get the help you need instead of getting out early.

- That sounds almost like a, like a what we used to hear about three strikes years ago.

So are you a supporter of Lock 'em up until they're too old to offend again?

- No, no.

But you gotta have accountability for some of these things.

And people are getting out early.

For instance, we've, they're recent for a while.

They're a hundred folks a month that resist life in prison.

We're talking murderers that get out.

So if you take someone's life, yeah, you shouldn't come out.

Right now we've got a big problem with the mental health diversion.

So they expanded to about 300 different diagnoses for mental health diversion.

But it can be sleep apnea, OCD, ADHD, erectile dysfunction.

- Well, wait a minute.

You're telling me that someone can be diverted from serving time into some sort of diversion program for erectile dysfunction and sleep apnea?

- Yeah.

Caffeine.

If you have issues with caffeine, tobacco, cannabis, pretty much anything.

So here in Sacramento, this father had a 20 month old.

He was home with a baby, drank a pint of vodka, couple of beers, he beat the baby to death.

A baby girl.

Fractured her skull, broke her ribs, ruptured spleen.

I mean, he beat her to death.

Didn't remember how it happened.

He applied for diversion.

He got it.

He completed his classes.

And about two months ago in Sacramento, he was, he lives in San Francisco now, on a zoom, graduated from diversion, everyone's clapping for him and cheering for him.

His records expunged.

That arrest never happened.

So right now he can apply for a job.

They run his fingerprints and, and bring him back.

It shows no arrest.

So he can be a coach, he can be a teacher, he can be a Cub Scout leader.

He can work at a group home and be around children.

And that bill to fix that piece of that was heard in the legislature yesterday in the assembly Public Safety Committee.

I testified, they voted it down.

So - - On what, what policy grounds.

- They didn't want people, even though it was very specific, they painted it with a broad brush, which wasn't true.

And I'd been in that building for eight years.

So I know the shenanigans that go on, but when it comes to children, either you're going to be with children or you're gonna be with the offender.

And those folks chose to be with offenders.

We've had other cases where kids have been tortured and abused and these folks get diversion that, that's crazy.

And are they okay with that person watching their kids or being teaching their kids or interacting with their kids when they get out?

Nobody is.

There are some crimes that are unforgivable and that's one of them.

- Hmm.

Today in Sacramento County.

In talking about the, the safety of the public right now, what's the letter grade you would give?

The level of safety that we enjoy in Sacramento County, - In, in the county, in the sheriff's jurisdiction, I'd give us a b.

- What is that you - - Maybe a b plus.

- Where is the place where it is that your grade is the weakest - Resources?

And I'll tell you right now, child abuse, before the recession, I had 12 child abuse investigators.

I'm down to seven.

So we never got fully staffed after the recession of oh eight or oh nine.

And that's been the big issue.

And that's department wide.

- How does it, you, you, you said a few minutes ago you were talking about your, your career trajectory and you were the first elected mayor of the city of Elk Grove.

- Yes.

- Okay.

With, with being a chief executive of a municipality, being a legislator yourself, how did those previous roles and all of the years you've spent as a deputy sheriff before being elected, inform how you specifically look at issues?

That's different than say your predecessors.

Did - I feel like I got a PhD from going the legislature and some of those things because, you know, and one thing is, is compromise and legislature.

You gotta get through two houses, multiple committees and hope the governor signs your bill.

So learning to work with other people and accept different views, that was invaluable experience in my life, being on a city council where people come there and they live in your neighborhood and they'll tell you at the store what they like and don't like.

So it, it was a great education for me then being in law enforcement, you see everything.

So I've been very fortunate and blessed.

So it gave me a great foundation.

And that's, that's really what has helped me be who I am.

- You are the first black sheriff of Sacramento County and only one of, I believe, two in the state.

- Well, I was the second ever in California.

Second in ca And there's the sheriff of Sonoma County, Eddie Ingram.

He was the third.

- As you know, communities of color and, and in particular the black community have had tortured relationships.

- Right.

- With law enforcement.

How do you navigate your own lived experience and your professional experience embodied in one individual with some of the continuing criticisms of selective enforcement, racial profiling, unnecessary death or injury to people from the communities that typically we hear about that have adverse relationships with law enforcement?

- Sure.

So some of those criticisms were valid a hundred percent.

Things that happened in the past that, that weren't pretty and it never should have happened.

So, so what I do going forward, coming in as, as the sheriff of, of the biggest or largest department in Sacramento County, I've pretty much met with every employee I've been to every briefing and talked to 'em and told 'em what my expectations are.

Obviously the jail, that's where a lot of our issues are.

I've been in the jail probably 60 times downtown.

So the employees see me and they know what I expect.

So I walk around and really I manage by walking around.

I wanna see what's going on and tell 'em my experiences.

And they see that as, as a black man, as their leader and talk about some of those things.

We've had some difficult conversations with my executive staff and my managers with, and really set the tone for what I expect my officers to be.

And it's, it's, it's a work in progress every day.

- Is it a training issue as well?

- I think it's training.

It's, it's a lot of things.

It's tough.

A lot of folks don't wanna be in law enforcement.

You can't work at home.

You gotta go to the job.

You work weekends and holidays, you work, you work Christmas and Thanksgiving.

- Sure.

- You work different shift hours.

So the job doesn't appeal to a lot of people.

The job pays well and then you're dealing with humanity at its worst, quite often, sometimes at its best.

And it's not for the faint of heart.

'cause sometimes people wanna hurt you.

- Well, you know, let, let's go a little bit deeper on that because I do hear it's very difficult for law enforcement in general, but specifically sheriff's department to recruit these days.

- Right.

- And, you know, the pay is good, the retirement, some would say is even better.

- Right.

- And so what are the unique challenges that you have in trying to bring people, and especially people who are gonna embody the values that you want them to, to embody to come in to the Sheriff's department?

- Well, it's been tough.

I mean, you look at some of the smaller police departments in the Bay Area, they have signing bonuses from as low as $5,000 up to a hundred thousand dollars.

- A hundred grand?

- Signing bonus for a small pd.

'cause those small cities can afford it.

The counties, we have a lot of social services.

We're, we're the big mothership.

So besides law enforcement, the county has a lot, a lot of other responsibilities to do that.

So, so it's tough to hire.

And when I came in, I had about a hundred vacancies.

I'm still at that.

I think we're lowering it now.

We're getting more folks in the academy, more women.

That's one thing we've had.

So we're start starting to make a dent and get people of color in the department.

So we're much more diverse than when I came on, you know, back in 1984.

So things are changing slowly, but it's, it, it just, it's, it's difficult.

It is hard to hire.

And that's everywhere, every aspect.

And we're very young department, very young, very inexperienced.

And that's that's - Really?

- In law enforcement.

Yes.

- Very young.

- When you say young and inexperienced, tell me, tell me what you mean by that.

So when I went to patrol as a patrol officer, the training officers were military veterans that had been in patrol for, you know, 10 or 15 years.

So a great deal of experience in dealing with people.

Now I think our average patrol officer has only been in patrol three years.

You have folks that are training officers that have, that are three years in patrol.

So it's very young.

We either, our department on the graph is very young or very old.

So a lot of young people.

And that's not bad, but still it's lack of experience.

For instance, a lot of these young kids as you know, don't get their driver's license until they're 19, sometimes 20.

And some of 'em can't drive that good.

So they tend to have more accidents.

- Hmm, interesting.

- Yeah.

- So I wanna, I want to turn the conversation to you.

So in terms of your own journey and going into law enforcement, what first inspired you to take the road to become a deputy sheriff in the first place?

- So my dad was in the Air Force.

We, we came to Mather.

I graduated Cordova High School.

I was going to college and I was working part-time at Sacramento Six Drive-in at Bradshaw and 50.

And they had sheriff's deputies working their off duty.

I'd never been around cops, never shot a gun, knew nothing about law enforcement.

And I would talk to these officers, these deputies, and one day they suggested, Hey, we're hiring.

Take our test.

So, so I'm 19, I take the test, I pass it, and I just turned 20, I started the academy.

And so that's kind of what got me there.

- Hmm.

It, it's interesting because you have proudly, you know, flown the flag for law enforcement in the decades that you first arrived on the scene.

One of the places, and I want to come back to this, you talk about the relationship between the law enforcement and communities of color.

One of the, the criticisms of you is that within the African American community that you, you are not always seen as someone who is involved in addressing the issues of that community and other communities of color.

I just wanna put it out there - Sure.

- for you to respond to that, because it's not something that's typically said directly to you.

Right.

So I'm gonna do it - Right, - But I want you to, but you have, in your final words, what is your response to those people who think they know you, but maybe they don't?

- Well, it's, it's tough.

Sometimes you see one image, and I think anyone of color in law enforcement, it's a difficult job because you're seen as them and not one of us.

And you have a job to do.

And law enforcement you see a lot and, and you do a lot.

And I just, is it, is it unjust?

Yeah, maybe.

Yeah.

But that, that's just life.

I, I, I can't complain about it.

All I can do is go out and do the best job that I can and, and commit my best effort every day.

And I think I've been pretty good at it.

What's interesting is I've got 2,500 employees and, and Dan Hahn said it best, “I can be home, in bed asleep and get in trouble for something somebody else did.” Which, which is true, you know, but you try and do what's right and, you know, things we don't talk about in, in two and a half years, I've, I've fired over close to 30 people, sworn and non-sworn.

So I'm, I'm very, you know, direct in, in, in dealing with that.

And the same thing with folks when I got elected to sheriff, he's a democrat, he's liberal, no gun, no cc, no concealed weapons, permits.

He's not gonna enforce law.

I've had folks come up to me and say, “Hey, you know what?

I didn't vote for you.

I didn't think that much of you, but you've done a great job as sheriff.” Ive heard that a lot from both sides.

So, you know, you're in the middle.

You, you, you make some people mad, you make some happy.

That's, that's, that's probably the best you can do.

- And I think we will leave it there.

Thank you Sheriff Cooper for coming on and keep keeping us safe.

- Thank you very much, Scott.

Appreciate you.

- Alright.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guest and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time.

Right here on KVIE.

[Upbeat music] - All episodes of Studio Sacramento, along with other KVIE programs are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.