♪♪ Scott: Sacramento's police chief, Daniel Hahn, will be retiring after four years of leading his department.

Chief Hahn joins us today to share his perspective on his time at command and the events that he has faced along the way.

Welcome, Chief.

Why are you retiring?

Why now?

Daniel: Well, um, I've been doing this for 34 years and then I've actually-— By-— Come December, I will have been Chief for almost 11 years.

And, um, so I think the average, last I heard, of a tenure of a chief is about three years.

And so, um, it's time.

It's time to do something different.

Um, it's a good time for me and my family.

It's a good time, I think, for the city and the department, as opposed to, say, a year ago when we were in the... in the midst and the... the... the center of, uh, a lot of protests and a lot of volatility in the community.

Um, and, you know, it's a stressful, challenging job.

And, uh, you know, the-— I...

I think, uh, there's a time for leadership to change, and that time is now.

Scott: Stressful.

Focusing on that word for just a moment.

You were just featured on a CNN episode or... or feature talking about how-— the exodus of police chiefs around the country.

While all these police chiefs, including yourself, have different reasons, I'm just curious-— Are there any common themes that may be weighing on chiefs around the country as they consider whether to continue on or not?

Daniel: Yeah, I... I-— Uh, well, I mean, not for all chiefs.

Um, you know, there's-— You know, every city's different, every dynamic's different, every... every chief is in a different place in their career, and things like that.

But, for some of the ones that I know well, I think there is...

Uh, one common theme is that, um, uh, especially with some of the African American police chiefs that I know and communicate with regularly, um, there's this feeling-— a legitimate feeling-— that, um, our skills and abilities aren't being fully utilized.

And our experience, both personal and professional, are not being used to the-— our full ability.

And that can be very frustrating.

Scott: You say, "being utilized to its full ability."

Could you expand on that word a little bit?

Would it include, potentially, being appreciated?

One of the... the difficult things that, from observation, it appears across the country, is that Black police chiefs-— Sometimes, it seems as if you hold an additional burden.

How do you respond to that?

Daniel: Well, I don't think there's any doubt that a Black police chief holds additional burdens.

Um, but, I also believe Black people, in general-— no matter what their job is-— especially in leadership roles, holds a diff-— additional burdens, and maybe we could spend a whole show on proving that.

Um, uh, but I also think many of the police chiefs that I know, especially the African American ones-— We kind of have an informal group, at least in California, um, where we talk fairly regularly-— Um, you know, as you know, my story growing up in Oak Park, and being adopted, and witnessing a murder when I was nine, and being arrested, and my younger brother being killed-— A lot of the African American police chiefs have somewhat similar personal backgrounds.

And as we're talking about, um, the well-being and equity in communities such as the one I grew up with, you know, I think I have something to offer in regards to that.

Not just my professional experience, but my personal experience, um, and my work in those communities, even professionally.

And I just think, across our state and across our country, a lot of times, um, when you see the blue uniform, whether you're a elected person, or even in the community at times, all other things are erased and, um, we're not utilized.

So, ego -wise, appreciation, I think, goes to your ego, but I...

I don't-— I know that's not what it is for me, and I don't think that is what it is for some of the other chiefs.

Yeah, you know, we all could use our ego being stroked from time to time, but, uh, the frustration of not being able to use our skills to the fullest ability, I think, is a lot more, uh, impactful than the ego-stroking.

Scott: I want to follow up on that piece in just a moment, but I want to share with you something, and this is from The Sacramento Bee.

When they were gathering reaction to the news of your upcoming retirement, they reported that Stevante Clark, Stephon Clark's brother and the community activist said, quote, he "was glad to hear that Hahn was retiring.

I love the chief, but I'm glad he's stepping down.

As a Black man, we thought he was going to represent us and our cause and our fights and it-— and how it feels to be a Black man.

He did not."

In... in just following up on the, uh, answer you gave just a moment ago, what's your reaction to Mr. Clark's statement?

Daniel: Well, I mean, that's what's great about our country-— Everybody can have an opinion.

Um, and so, I have no issues with his opinion.

That's what he feels.

He's completely entitled to that.

And, uh, as police chief, I represent everybody.

But I do have a unique, uh, set of experiences as a Black man and where I grew up and how I grew up, um, that does give me insight that maybe you wouldn't have if you weren't a Black man, and I fully utilize that.

And-— But he's entitled to his opinion.

Uh, you mentioned "“when I announced my retirement.

"” I think that's the other unique thing about being an African American police chief, or, again, an African American leader in any profession-— So, when I announced, I-— uh, pretty much every news outlet, um, came to interview me the following day.

Um, every one, except for one, uh, insinuated and asked that I was being fired-— Scott: Hold on.

Who... who-— Which outlet did not seek, uh, seek you out?

Daniel: Oh, no.

They all sought me out, but they all asked-— except for one-— asked me these similar questions.

Um, so only one did not go down this road.

Um, so they asked, um, repeatedly, if I was being fired, if I was being forced out, you know, some negative reason for leaving, which-— No.

The answer to that is no.

Um, then, uh, uh, at least one outlet PRA'd my emails in regards to retirement, PRA'd my letter in regards to announcing-— or letting the city manager know.

Um, and I only say that because there's at least two other police chiefs here in California that, within a couple of weeks of me announcing, they announced, and those things weren't asked of them.

They were not PRA'd.

Uh, none of that happened... Scott: "“PRA,"” uh, Public Records Act request, right?

Daniel: Right.

Right.

So, I kind of anticipated that would happen, but-— You know, there's a difference, uh, between what occurred after I announced versus what occurred when other chiefs announced who were not African American.

Scott: Right.

So, going back, though, to the beginning.

One of the earliest reporting quotes, uh, attributed to you was that you came back to "“save your city.

"” How did you do on meeting that objective?

Daniel: Well, I would never ca-— say, "I came back to save my city," because I don't think any one person can save, uh, uh, a city.

Nor do I think our city's to the point where it, like, literally needs saving.

To that-— Maybe that's a little strong term for my liking.

But, um, I came back because I felt this is where I belonged, and I wanted to finish the work of my mom.

And... and I felt that this is where I was supposed to be.

Um, and I wanted to serve my city.

And, um, although we've had many challenges, uh, in... in the time I've been here, uh-— some of... some of the most challenging times we've had in our city-— I...

I do think I've led and served exactly how I said I would, with care and compassion and love for this city and this police department.

So, in that sense, um, I think, uh, I, and we, were successful, uh, in the sense that I thought, uh, and I think, um, I always think we can be farther than we are, but, you know, the... the things that challenge us, the root of what challenges us, has been built over hundreds and hundreds of years.

So... Scott: Let... let's talk a little... Daniel: ...we're not gonna get to that in days.

Scott: Yeah.

Let's talk a little bit about those challenges.

Daniel: Yeah.

Scott: At the beginning of your tenure, there were cases, uh, uh, in the press like those related to Joseph Mann, Stephon Clark, others.

And you were hired, in part, to change what-— at least what were the perceptions related to the Sacramento Police Department and its interactions with... with the community.

How is the department different today, as you're in the process of stepping down, than it was when you arrived?

Daniel: Well, I think, the core of... of changing, like, culture and-— or I should say "modifying" culture and... and, really, society culture, it takes time.

So, I think we have made progress in that, but, you know, things like culture doesn't turn on a dime.

But there are tangible things that are drastically different now than they were then.

For example, how do we interact, treat with compassion, um, families that are involved in either community violence or officer-involved shootings?

Um, how do we treat those families?

The fact that we release video, but we meet with the families before we ever, uh, release video.

We... we never release video without the family having those first.

We meet and answer questions, all the questions we can.

So that is-— All of that.

The fact-— Body camera, having body cameras, releasing video, and how we, um, interact and, um, communicate and-— uh, uh, with families is totally different.

Some of which is just completely new, um, from just the last couple of years.

Scott: Hm.

What'’s left undone?

Daniel: Well, I think, uh, we... we constantly fall short in the sense that, when we talk about police-community relations, or just the things that are causing protests in our streets and... and anger and, um, you know, uh, being upset and disappointed and angry over not living up to the ideals of this country, what's written in the constitution and things like that.

Um, we often talk about law enforcement, but we need to talk about society, as a whole, when we talk about that, because law enforcement is part of society.

And at the root of all of this, in my opinion, um, is the issue of race and the issue of difference, and how we treat those two things in society.

Um, and we have to deal with it.

It's one-— It's like-— To me, it's our country, our community, our society's dirty little secret that we are, um, too scared to deal with.

And that is really what we need to deal with.

We're doing it in the police department.

Um, but if we only do it in the police department, we're going to fall woefully short because our members are part of society.

They're part of the larger community.

And, um, as these things go on in society, just having some classes and some experience in one small segment of that is not gonna, um, make a drastic difference for somebody living in Del Paso Heights or somebody living in, uh, Meadowview every day-— the struggling to survive and raise their family and things like that.

Scott: With all that complexity, Chief, what achievement are you most proud of, that you were able to get across the finish line, during your time?

Daniel: Well, I wouldn't say anything's completed because it's a constant process, but I...

I would say some of the things that I'm most proud of is... is... is getting through those significant changes.

Those, uh, body camera releases, the policy around that, the communicating with families, communicating with the community, as a whole.

Those were extreme changes, not only for our department, but for our community.

For example, um, the... the... the protests regarding Stephon Clark shooting were going on for a couple days before we released the video, after three days.

And they changed when we released the video.

They became more volatile.

That's when the Kings game was blocked, and it's the only NBA game in the history of the NBA that was blocked, and it was done twice in our city.

And I-5 was blocked.

That happened after the release of the video, and I think the video was like the final straw that... that pushed it over to that kind of a protest.

But I still think it was the right thing to do, and I think, uh, it happened like that because that's really the first time in the country that people saw a video like that, so close to the actual incident.

Um, and now, it's pretty commonplace for videos to be released across the county, soon to that.

So, being the first to go down that road caused a lot more volatility.

So, I think some of those things are, um, what, uh, I think are the most proud, but when you go through those changes, both internally and community, collectively, are challenged by that.

And so, we had officers that absolutely did not agree that that was the right thing to do.

We had community members, the families, did not think that was the right thing to do.

There-— We have not had a family yet that wants the video released publicly.

Um, and so, now, if you look at what officers in community, uh, feel about it, it's changed.

Officers want the video released now.

Uh, the community, uh, wants it to be.

I still don't think it should be as public as it quite is.

I...I-— Obviously, the family should be able to see it, and then they should decide how public.

But, I think, going through all that change to get to the point where people see the value in it, and because of that, they are now good with it, um, is-— We don't talk about that process and how challenging that process is.

So, I'd...

I'd say some of those things are what I'm most proud of, that, uh, we were able to lead, uh, our community and the department through those challenges to get to a... a better place.

Scott: That action that you just described in releasing the tape-— Risky move.

Some would say a brave move.

But it took leadership.

And I'm curious, what letter grade would you give the city of Sacramento'’s elected leadership during that time, and during your tenure, for their actions and support in dealing with the multiple crises that you've highlighted thus far, and that you faced overall?

And that's everything from Stephon Clark to the uprisings related to George Floyd, and beyond.

Daniel: Yeah.

I...

I'm not gonna give a grade to politics, uh, as I...

I don't weigh into politics, but I will say this... Scott: Did you feel supported?

Did you feel the department was supported?

Daniel: At times, yes, and at times, no.

Um, and... and this is a little probably ego and selfishness talking, um, there is nobody in this city that cares about this city more than me.

And there's nobody in this city that cares about this police department more than me, at the same time.

And so, I always think, like, I want to be the one in charge when we're at our lowest moment, and we're-— and, you know, it's... it's one decision away from our city exploding versus our city being calm, I want to be the one right in-— right up front.

I want to be the one that's making that decision because I don't trust anybody more than I trust me, in terms of care for this city.

So, uh, and, you know, if you're elected, sometimes you have a different mission or a different, um, uh, uh, I guess, call to action... Scott: You know, when you... when you say that, does that mean that, potentially, public office might be in your future?

Daniel: Uh, I can't imagine it's in my future, at this point.

But, you know, 10, 20 years from now, who knows?

But, definitely, has nothing to do with me retiring, and I'm not running for office.

So, uh, but I...

I would just say this-— Uh, uh, has there been disagreements between myself and some elected leaders at all different levels?

Yeah, there has.

On one hand, I think that's a good thing.

I think if we always agree on everything, we're not going to get to a good decision.

Uh, it has been frustrating at times because I think it led to more volatility in our city and anytime there's volatility in our city, people will get harmed, or could get harmed, and could get hurt.

And typically, it's the least among us that suffer the largest burden on getting hurt, and so... Scott: Can you... can you point to one decision made by our electives that if-— that was adverse to how it is that you and the department would have made the call, that would have led to a better outcome, in your opinion, than what we might've experienced?

Daniel: No, I can't point to any one particular thing.

It's just, uh, I'm a big proponent of process and communication.

And if you get process wrong, and communication wrong, you... you can wind up with the same final decision, but the ramifications are drastically different just because of the way you went about it.

And so, um, you know, I have a responsibility not only to the community, but to the members of this department, to keep both safe.

So, in the midst of volatile protests, I have a responsibility to keep the members of my department, that are in the center of it, safe, and have a responsibility to keep not only the protestors safe, but the community at large safe... safe at the same time.

And that's... that's something I take very serious.

As you know, we lost an officer while I was chief of police, and I stand at every graduation, and I promise the families that we're going to do everything we can to keep our members safe.

And at least one time, as chief, I had to let parents know that we didn't do that.

Scott: How do you think the rank and file of the police force that you led would characterize your tenure and your leadership?

Daniel: Well, as you know, we have over 1,100 members of this department, so you could probably get 10 different opinions on that, um... Scott: How would you hope-—Then how would you hope that they would remember you?

Daniel: I...

I would hope that they would say that I led, um, with-— at every, uh, point-— at every decision point, I did what I thought was right.

And, uh, with keeping in mind, uh, the well-being and safety of everybody involved, both the members of our department and the community.

Now, I will say, there'll be some people that will say that I cared too much about the Black community, I cared too much about the community and not the officers.

Um, there'll be, uh, all sorts of different opinions, but, you know, I...

I don't think that's a bad thing.

I...

I...

I would be worried about a department or an organization where everybody 100% said, "Oh, he's the greatest leader of all time," because you cannot lead in an important role, in an important function, and think that more than, probably at any given time, 60% of the people are going to agree with you, because when you lead-— like, you really lead-— you make controversial decisions.

And, uh, I'm okay with that because I've always led with, "I'm going to do what I think is right, no matter what the consequence."

If that means tomorrow, I'm going to be fired because I made a decision I thought was right, I'm good with that.

Fire me tomorrow, because... Scott: You know, I want to...

I want to step in on that, because you talk about making controversial decisions and that 60% of folks-— more than that-— are unlikely to be with you.

I want to ask you about the local advocates.

You have either been blessed, or cursed, with, uh, more local advocacy and input than probably any police chief in history.

But, on a specific issue related to defunding the police, how well do you think local advocates who call for that defunding actually represent the thinking and the concerns of the residents of the neighborhood that they're-— they claim to be in advocacy for?

Daniel: Well, as you know, I've lived my entire life in this community.

So, I think I have a pretty good feel of what the... the... the general community thinks, and I don't think they... they agree at all.

Um, and, unfortunately, what I believe will happen, and is already happening, is what has happened throughout history.

Um, you know, we have this advocacy and this movement to, whether it's "defund the police" or any other, um, significant, uh, proposal, and what we see is not enough thought goes into it.

Not enough bringing people to the table, goes into that decision, from different walks of life, to where we can make the best decision for everybody.

It's, you know-— A certain segment of our society comes forward with a... a proposal.

Um, they don't want to include, for example, me, or the police department, or anybody in law enforcement.

So, now you're not-— you're going to lose perspective of-— If we take, say, 10 million from the police department, what does that mean for the police?

Like, what are you going to cut?

What are you going to move?

Well, you don't have that because you don't allow the police department to the table to talk about that.

It's not that you have to agree, but you should at least know what is the police chief gonna do if $10 million is cut out of their budget?

So, what happens is, you know, maybe some not holistic decisions are made, and you see what's going on across the country now.

Crime is increasing drastically, and violent crime.

So, what's going to happen is the community is going to get so frustrated over violent crime, they're gonna go all the way back to the other extreme-— which isn't good either-— of locking everybody up.

Let's build five more prisons and lock-— let's lock-— Then crime is going to go down drastically again, like it has over the last three or four decades.

And then, we're going to talk about-— We're going to be at the same place-— And, uh, you know, what happened over the last three or four decades with zero-tolerance, and Three Strikes, and all this "get tough on crime," is it damaged further the relationship between law enforcement and the community, 'cause we just walked into a community, arrested, you know, everybody that committed even the most minor crime, and walked out.

We didn't build relationships.

And so, then we ended up where we're at now.

Well, we're headed back there.

Instead of going, "Look, we have issues.

Let's all sit down at the table.

Let's have some disagreements.

Let's come up with the best solution possible, so we don't keep going from one extreme to the other," because in every instance, the least among us are the ones that suffer.

If you look at who is dying in our communities now, it's in the communities that I grew up in.

It's not in the other communities.

Scott: I want to ask you-— This has been a... a... a very, uh, event -filled tenure of yours, and one of the things that a lot of people wonder about is we see how you're in front, on the front lines.

How has this affected your family?

Daniel: Well, my... my wife was actually here today, um, uh, getting notarized signatures for our retirement.

Um, so, you know, people like my wife go back and forth.

She's very proud of the fact that, you know, I'm the police chief and, you know, our family, um, but she's also, uh, been through some really challenging times.

I often say our spouses, or our significant others, have it harder than we have, in many situations, because we have a little bit of control.

Right?

When I'm at work, in a volatile situation, I have a little bit of control over that.

I can defend myself.

I can-— I have tools and all-— I can make decisions, but our spouses are sitting at home with no control over anything.

They're just watching this go down.

And so, it's been tough on, uh, my family as, you know, I've had specific death threats with knowing my address and saying they're going to come to my house and kill me, and if my kids are around, well, too bad for them.

Literally, I've had those threats.

I've had too many nights where, 24 hours a day, I've had guards at my house.

I have-— Since I've come back as Chief, I've had cameras installed on my house because of that.

Um, and so, now that-— on a fairly regular occasion, my wife will see a car she doesn't recognize park in our neighborhood, and she'll call me thinking that's somebody that's going to harm her, or our kids.

And I might add, at the same time, in the middle of this, COVID hit, and, uh, so our kids were sent home.

Our daughters were sent home to do school at home on... on the laptops.

And my wife is at work, I'm at work, while we have people threatening to come to our house.

And so, uh, you know, I'm calling home.

My wife is calling home.

"Is everything okay?"

At the same time, not trying to alert our daughters that there might be something wrong, uh, at any given moment.

So, and they're wondering, "Why do you keep calling me?"

So, it's been... it's been a challenge that is not normal for-— I mean, there's a lot of challenges that come with being a police chief, but those challenges are not typical.

Scott: And Chief, unfortunately, we're out of time and we're going to have to leave it there.

We'’re, uh-— Thank you for your service, and thank your family for their service, as well, as you just described.

We look forward to seeing what's next for you.

Daniel: Me too.

Thank you.

Scott: All right.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guest, and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪ Scott Syphax: All episodes of Studio Sacramento, along with other KVIE programs, are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.