[♪♪] GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO KENTUCKY TONIGHT.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

AS WE BEGIN WEEK 4 OF THE 2024 KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY, OUR TOPIC TONIGHT IS HOUSE BILL 5, THE PROPOSED SAFER KENTUCKY ACT — A SERIES OF ANTI-CRIME MEASURES.

LET’S BEGIN BY LOOKING AT SOME OF THE KEY COMPONENTS OF THE BILL: FIRST, A THREE-STRIKES PROVISION FOR VIOLENT OFFENDERS - MEANING THOSE CONVICTED OF THREE VIOLENT FELONIES FACE A LIFE SENTENCE BEHIND BARS.

THE BILL WOULD TOUGHEN PENALTIES FOR KNOWINGLY SELLING FENTANYL OR A FENTANYL DERIVATIVE THAT RESULTS IN A FATAL OVERDOSE.

FENTANYL IS POWERFUL SYNTHETIC OPIOID THAT'S A FACTOR IN MOST OF KENTUCKY'S OVERDOSE DEATHS.

IT CREATES A STAND-ALONE LAW FOR CARJACKING.

THE BILL PUTS NEW RESTRICTIONS ON CHARITABLE BAIL ORGANIZATIONS THAT KEEPS THEM FROM FURNISHING BAIL THAT’S OVER $5,000 OR FOR PEOPLE CHARGED WITH A VIOLENT CRIME HB 5 CREATES A NEW OFFENSE OF “UNLAWFUL CAMPING,” MAKING IT ILLEGAL TO SLEEP OUTSIDE IN PUBLIC AREAS.

THE MEASURE ALSO ENHANCES PENALTIES FOR SEVERAL CRIMES...

INCLUDING A POSSIBLE DEATH SENTENCE FOR KILLING A POLICE OFFICER OR FIRST RESPONDER, AND THE BILL UPGRADES PENALTIES FOR FLEEING OR EVADING THE POLICE.

AND, BUSINESS OWNERS WOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE REASONABLE FORCE ON SUSPECTED SHOPLIFTERS TO KEEP THEM FROM ESCAPING.

TO DISCUSS ALL THIS, WE ARE JOINED IN OUR LEXINGTON STUDIO BY: STATE REPRESENTATIVE JASON NEMES, A MIDDLETOWN REPUBLICAN AND HOUSE MAJORITY WHIP; STATE REPRESENTATIVE KETURAH HERRON, A LOUISVILLE DEMOCRAT; STATE REPRESENTATIVE JARED BAUMAN, A LOUISVILLE REPUBLICAN AND PRIME SPONSOR OF THE SAFER KENTUCKY ACT; GEORGE EKLUND, DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION AND ADVOCACY FOR THE COALITION FOR THE HOMELESS; RYAN STRAW, KENTUCKY STATE FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE VICE PRESIDENT & DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS; AND KUNGU JUGUNA, POLICY STRATEGIST WITH THE ACLU OF KENTUCKY.

SEND US YOUR QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS BY X — FORMERLY TWITTER -- AT K-Y TONIGHT K-E-T.

SEND AN EMAIL TO K-Y TONIGHT AT K-E-T DOT O-R-G. OR USE THE WEB FORM AT K-E-T DOT O-R-G SLASH K-Y TONIGHT.

OR YOU CAN CALL 1-800-494-7605.

WELCOME TO OUR GUESTS.

A LONGER INTRO THAN USUAL BUT WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE OUR GUESTS UNDERSTOOD PARAMETERS OF OUR DISCUSSION AND THE BILL DOES MORE THAN THAT.

AND WE WILL PEA GET TO AS MUCH AS WE CAN.

QUESTIONS ARE ALREADY COMING IN AND YOU EXPECTED THAT TO HAPPEN, RIGHT?

I DESCRIBED A LOT OF THE VIOLENT OFFENSES THIS BILL HAS THE KENTUCKY ACT WOULD APPLY TO ARE THERE OTHER OFFENSES MAYBE NONVIOLENT THAT THIS APPLIES?

>> YEAH, I THINK REALLY TO START I THANK YOU, RENEE FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW TONIGHT.

AND JUST WANT TO START WITH COMMENTS AROUND YOU KNOW, THE PUBLIC SAFETY, SECURITY AND DECKIONS ASPECT OF THIS BILL AND IT IS FOUNDATIONAL TO ACHIEVING PROSPERITY FOR THE FOUR-AND-A-HALF MILLIKEN KENYANS TO CHOOSE THE CALL THE COMMONWEALTH HOME.

IT IS THE FOUNDATION ON WHICH WE WILL BUILD A THRIVING ECONOMY.

THE FOUNDATION ON WHICH WE WILL SUPPORT THE KENTUCKY FAMILY.

THE CHIEF SUCCESS IN EDUCATION AND GENERALLY ACHIEVE A HIGH QUALITY OF LIFE IN OUR STATE.

AND SO SOME OF THE NONVIOLENT PROVISIONS THAT COME TO TOP OF MIND HAVE TO DO WITH THE STREET CAMPING THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY NONVIOLENT.

SO I WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING VERY CLEAR REGARDING THAT PROVISION.

I KNOW IT'S POPULAR IN THE MEDIA AND IN THE PUBLIC.

THAT BEING HOMELESS OR UNSHELTERED IS NOT A CRIME IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY TODAY.

AND BEING HOMELESS UNSHELTERED WILL NOT BE A CRIME AFTER WE PASS HOUSE BILL 5.

>> Renee: THOUGH IT'S INCLUDED IN HOUSE BILL 5.

WHY?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

WELL, BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN THAT A LOT OF CRIME PROLIFERATES OUT OF THESE HOMELESS ENCAMPMENTS.

THE HOMELESS NUMBERS IN THE CITY THAT I SERVE HAVE SKYROCKETED OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

SO WE KNOW BASED ON THE RESEARCH WE'VE DONE THAT UNSHELTERED PERSON IS 500 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO COMMIT A CRIME THAN SOMEONE THAT IS NOT.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE FOLKS HAVE ADEQUATE RESOURCES FOR SUPPORT.

THAT WE HAVE THOSE FOLKS IN DESIGNATED AREAS WHERE THEY HAVE RUNNING WATER, BATHROOMS AND ARE ACCESSIBLE TO THOSE ADVOCACY GROUPS THAT WANT TO PROVIDE SERVICES.

>> Renee: AN IMPORTANT QUESTION ABOUT WHY THE STATE LEGISLATURE REPRESENTATIVE NEMES?

BECAUSE THIS WAS PROPOSED IS PROPOSED BY A CALLEDRY OF COMPANIES IN JEFFERSON COUNTY.

MANY PEOPLE WOULD SAY THAT THE BILL WOULD ONLY APPLY TO LOUISVILLE AND TO LEXINGTON.

WHY NOT THIS KIND OF MEASURE BE HANDLED AT THE LOCAL LEVEL?

YOU WERE A PROPONENT OF HOME RULE THE LOCAL OFFICIALS ARE CLOSEST TO THE PROBLEMS AND HAVE THE BEST SOLUTIONS THE WHY BYPASS THE GOVERNMENT AND DO TO THE LEGISLATURE.

>> THE KENTUCKY PENAL CODE IS THE KENTUCKY STATUTE.

THERE'S HOME RULE AND THERE OUGHT TO BE, THE PENAL LAWS ARE STATE LAWS HAS THEY HAVE ENGINE IN KENTUCKY HISTORY.

THIS BILL WOULD NOT JUST APPLY TO LOUISVILLE IT WOULD BE STATE-WIDE.

VIOLENT CRIME IS INCREASING ACROSS THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY.

KENTUCKY IS ONE OF THREE STATES WHERE VIOLENT CRIME HAS INCREASED IN THE LAST YEAR.

AND SO THIS IS NOT JUST A LOUISVILLE SPECIFIC BILL THERE ARE PROVISIONS IN HERE WE'RE PROUD OF THAT WILL REDUCE CRIME AND A LOT IS ABOUT LOUISVILLE.

WHEN YOU TALK TO THE LMPD CHIEF AND THE MAYOR AND OTHER PEOPLE IN LOUISVILLE FOR EXAMPLE, ONE THING YOU HEAR IS THE VIOLENT CRIME SPIKE.

THERE ARE 150 LOUISVILLE LOUISVILLIANS KILLED FROM VIOLENT CRIME.

AND WHAT THEY TELL US IS IT'S LARGELY YOUNG PEOPLE THAT ARE THE TRIGGER PULLERS.

AND I THINK THAT IS ONE THING Mr.

STRAW CAN TALK ABOUT TONIGHT AS WELL.

ONE THING IN THE BILL IF YOU ARE AN ADULT AND USE A KRILD TO COMMIT A CRIME FOR YOU HAPPENING A LOT.

WE HAVE A SIGNIFICANT GANG PROBLEM IN LOUISVILLE.

THEN THAT PENALTY IS ENHANCED.

DO NOT USE KIDS TO COMMIT CRIME.

THE ANSWER DIRECTLY IS THE KENTUCKY PENAL CODE HAS BEEN A STATE LAW FROM THE BEGINNING OF KENTUCKY.

THAT IS NOT A LOCAL RESPONSIBILITY THAT IS A STATE RESPONSIBILITY.

>> Renee: REPRESENTATIVE HERRON I WANT TO GET YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT.

DO YOU THINK THIS SHOULD BE DEALT WITH ELSEWHERE?

AND THE STATE LEGISLATURE SHOULD BE TAKING THIS UP?

>> I DEFINITELY THINK THERE'S A FEW PROVISIONS THAT SHOULD BE DEALT WITH ON THE LOCAL LEVEL.

HOWEVER WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT SAFETY MEANS IN KENTUCKY, I DEFINITELY THINK THAT THE STATE LEGISLATURE HAS A HUGE RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE MAKING EVERYONE SAFE.

AND I DON'T BELIEVE THIS IS THE PIECE OF LEGISLATION THAT IS GOING TO MAKE US SAFE.

AND THE SAME STUDY IN WHICH REPRESENTATIVE NEMES TALKED ABOUT, YES, CRIME DID INCREASE BY A LITTLE BIT.

BUT FROM 2012-2022, VIOLENT CRIME DECREASED BY 5%.

SO FOR ME, I BELIEVE THAT WE NEED TO BE LOOKING AT WHAT IS HAPPENED IN KENTUCKY OVER THE LAST FIVE OR 10 YEARS NOT TAKING A SNAPSHOT OF ONE MOMENT IN TIME AND SAYING WE ARE GOING TO LEGISLATE BASED OFF OF THIS.

BUT I THINK AS STATE LEGISLATORS WE HAVE A HUGE RESPONSIBILITY.

I JUST DON'T AGREE THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS BILL YOUR IMPRESSIONS?

>> WE HEAR THE SAME GOAL.

EVERYBODY WANT A SAFE KENTUCKY AND PROSPEROUS KENTUCKY BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S POSSIBLE YOU CANNOT INCARCERATE YOUR WAY TO PROSPERITY.

WE KNOW ENHANCED PENALTIES, NEW CRIMES DO NOT MAKE US SAFER.

THEY DO NOT DETER CRIME THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO MAKE KENTUCKY SAFE.

THIS IS NOT A WAY TO DO THE THINGS THAT HE SEEKS TO DO IN TERMS OF MAKING KENTUCKY SAFE.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT AT THE HEARING, WE HEARD A LOT OF CONCERNS ABOUT THIS BILL.

IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THIS BILL IS SUPPOSED TO BE VOTED ON TOMORROW.

WHY THE RUSH?

LET'S TALK, LET'S HAVE CONVERSATIONS LIKE THIS IN FRANKFORT AND SEE IFS CAN'S POSSIBLE WE CAN AGREE.

AND SLOW THIS BILL DOWN.

LET'S HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS.

AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE THINGS THAT TRULY MAKE US SAFE.

WHICH IS INVESTING IN PEOPLE, AND IN COMMUNITIES.

>> Renee: IS THE BILL GOING TO BE CAUGHT UP ON THE FLOOR?

>> IT WILL NOT BE.

TWO QUICK POINTS IF I MIGHT.

AND THAT IS THIS BILL HAS NOT BEEN FAST TRACKED WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT FOR NINE MONTHS IT WAS THE SUBJECT OF A COMMITTEE HEARING.

I'VE TALKED WITH ALL THREE OF THE FOLKS ON THE OTHER SIDE AND BOTH ON THIS SIDE AND WE'VE INCORPORATED SUGGESTIONS THAT WERE MADE BY REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS AND ADVOCATES.

REPRESENTATIVE HERRON AND I TALKED ABOUT IMPROVING THE GOOD SAMARITAN LAW AND STATE ONE THING THAT MY FRIEND NJUGUNA SAID WE ARE NOT TRYING TO INCARCERATE OURSELVES OUT OF THE PROBLEM.

THIS IS ONE BILL.

THERE ARE A LOT OF BILLS.

WE ARE VERY PROUD OF WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY AND THE GOVERNOR IS TOO BECAUSE HE MADE IT PART OF THE STATE OF COMMONWEALTH.

WE HAVE MORE TREATMENT AND RECOVERY BEDS IN KENTUCKY THAN ANY STATE IN THE COUNTRY MORE THAN ANY STATE IN THE COUNTRY.

WE ARE NOT TRYING TO INCARCERATE OURSELVES OUT.

THIS BUT TREAT OURSELVES OUT OF THIS.

IF SOMEONE KEEPS COMMITTING VIOLATIONS OF THE LAW, ESPECIALLY VIOLENT VIOLATIONS OF THE LAW WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO GET THEM OFF OUR STREETS TO TENG THE PEOPLE.

>> Renee: QUICKLY IF I CAN GET Mr.

STRAW THAT WAS MENTIONED IN COMMITTEE LAST THURSDAY AND IT WAS BY CONSERVATIVE THINK TANK FREE, SARAH WAS THE ONE WHO TALKED ABOUT HOW YOU CAN'T INCARCERATE YOUR WAY OUT OF IT COSTS MORE.

AND SOMETIMES THESE ENHANCED PENALTIES, LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE FOR CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FELONY OFFENSES VIOLENT FELONY OFFENSES ENDS UPKEEPING PEOPLE BEHIND BARS THAT END UP IN ENDANGERING THE CORRECTIONS OFFICIALS.

ANSWER THAT FOR US?

>> I DON'T THINK WE CAN PLAY THE UP THE IDEA THAT SOME LAW THAT IS PASSED IS GOING TO MAKE IT MORE DANGEROUS THAN IT IS.

CLEARLY RIGHT NOW, WHAT IS HAPPENING ISN'T WORKING.

WE DO HAVE AN ISSUE IN KENTUCKY WITH OUR DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS ESPECIALLY AND THAT WOULD DEFINITELY NEED TO BE LOOKED AT AS WELL AS THIS BILL GOES THROUGH.

THE CORRECTIONS OFFICERS THEY DO A WONDERFUL JOB THEY WOULD ADAPT AND NOT BE ANYMORE UNSAFE AND THEY ARE TRAINED TO HANDLE THAT AND WE'LL PUSH FOR BETTER TRAINING AND CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THOSE IN THE ROLES.

BUT TO SAY THAT WE INCARCERATE OURSELVES OUT OF THE PROBLEM, I JUST DON'T SEE IT.

BECAUSE SEVENTH MOST INCARCERATED STATE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IF WE WERE OUR OWN COUNTRY, YOU DON'T SA SEE THAT ON THE STREETS RIGHT NOW.

OUR COPS ARE OVERWHELMED.

WE NEED HELP.

AND THIS BILL HELPS.

>> Renee: AND YOU ARE FULLY BEHIND EVERY PROVISION IN THIS BILL?

>> WE SUPPORT THE BILL COMPLETELY.

>> Renee: ALL THE PROVISIONS?

>> YES.

>> FISCAL NOTE AND BACK TO YOU AND I WILL GET YOU INVOLVED Mr. EKLUND.

WE HEARD TESTIMONY THAT THERE'S THE FISCAL NOTE THERE WILL BE AN IMPACT TO STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS.

WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE COST?

Mr. BAUMAN CAN YOU ANSWER THAT?

>> THE COST IS LISTED AS UNDETERMINED.

AND WE KNOW THAT.

BUT THERE WILL BE COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH THE BILL AND WE ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO WORK ON THAT.

BUT THE COST OF DOING NOTHING OUTWEIGHS THE COST OF THIS BILL.

SO THE COST OF DOING NOTHING IS FUTURE VICTIMS.

WE TALK ABOUT THE THREE STRIKES WHAT DO WE SAY TO THE VICTIM OF THAT FOURTH FAMILY THAT IS PERPETRATED BY A VIOLENT EXPERIENCED CRIMINAL?

WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO HAVE A RESOLVING DOOR FOR VIOLENT OFFENDERS.

WE HAVE TO ENSURE THAT WE HOLD THOSE FOLKS ACCOUNTABLE.

THE PENDULUM HAS SWUNG TOO FAR WHERE THERE IS A LACK OF RESPECT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

SO WE HAVE TO RESET, ENSURE THAT WE REASSERT SIMPLE TRUTHS THAT SOCIETY IS NOT ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE ACTIONS OF CRIMINALS.

THE CRIMINALS THEMSELVES ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

>> Renee: SO FISCAL NOTE, DON'T KNOW WHEN IT WILL BE DETERMINED ARE YOU GOING TO VOTE ON THIS BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH IT'S GOING TO COST?

>> WE HAVE A FISCAL NOTE IT SHOULD BE PUBLISHED ON THE WEBSITE.

AND HOW MUCH WE SPEND ON CORRECTIONS IN KENTUCKY WE SPEND 4-5% OF OUR BUDGET ON CORRECTIONS THAT IS THE NOT THAT MUCH WITH THE FACT THAT WE SPEND MOREOVER FOUR TIMES MORE ON PENSIONS FOR STATE WORKERS THAN ALL OF THE CORRECTIONS COSTS.

WE HAVE HIGHER INCREASE JUST THE INCREASE IN MEDICAID COSTS OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS THAN WE SPEND ON ALL OF THE CORRECTIONS COSTS.

CORRECTIONS IS MAJOR RESPONSIBILITY OF GOVERNMENT AND WE DO NOT SPEND TOO MUCH ON IT.

SPEND MORE THAN I'D LIKE TO.

BUT IT'S NOT AN EXORBITANT AMOUNT AND WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A THIRD STRIKE.

PEOPLE COMMITTED THREE VIOLENT OFFENSES.

TH SIS NOT THEFT OR BURGLARY.

THIS IS ASSAULT WITH A DEADLY WEAPON.

THIS IS RAPE.

THIS IS MURDER.

NOT MANSLAUGHTER.

THESE ARE VERY, VERY SERIOUS CRIMES.

IF YOU'VE DONE IT THREE TIMES CAUGHT, CONVICTED, SERVED TIME WITH THE PROGRAMMING, DID IT AGAIN AND DID IT AGAIN?

HOW MANY TIMES BEFORE WE START THINKING MAYBE WE OUGHT TO PROTECT THE POTENTIAL VICTIMS.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO.

BOTH SIDES OF THE COIN ON COSTS.

>> Renee: I WANT Y'ALL TO ANSWER THAT Mr. EXLUCK?

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING SAID ABOUT ACCESS TO TREATMENT BEDS AND THE NUMBER OF TREATMENT BEDS.

IT'S GREAT WE HAVE THE HIGHEST PER CAPITA NUMBER OF BEDS IN KENTUCKY BUT THE QUESTION IS HOW ACCESSIBLE ARE THOSE?

AS WE HEARD AT THE HEARING, WHEN AN INDIVIDUAL SAY YOU GET ARRESTED AND YOU SOBER UP IN JAIL AND THEN YOU TRY TO GET INTO A FACILITY IF YOU HAD MEDICAID YOU DON'T QUALIFY.

YOU CAN'T GET IN.

THAT BED IS NOT ACCESSIBLE.

EVEN IF YOU HAVE PRIVATE INSURANCE ESPECIALLY IN OUR RURAL AREAS THERE'S ONLY ONE OR TWO PROVIDERS IF THAT PROVIDER DOESN'T TAKE YOUR INSURANCE, YOU GOT TO TRAVEL MILES AND MILES TO ANOTHER FACILITY TO GET TREATMENT.

THERE ARE SERIOUS ACCESS ISSUES WITH TO THOSE TREATMENT BEDS.

AND THIS BILL DOESN'T PROVIDE ANY OF THAT.

ADDITIONALLY AS A SAID IF WE GET PEOPLE FROM TREATMENT BEDS TREATMENT IS A FIRST STEP, 6-9 MONTHS AND AFTER THAT THOSE INDIVIDUALS NEED HOUSING, THEY NEED TRANSPORTATION, AND THEY NEED ACCESS TO EMPLOYMENT.

THIS BILL DOESN'T HELP WITH ANY OF THAT.

>> THIS BILL, BUT THE BUDGET DOES.

>> Renee: Mr. EKLUND WE'RE FORGETTING THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM ABOUT HOUSING?

>> KENTUCKY HAS AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING CRISIS EVERY COUNTY HAS AN ISSUE WITH RENTAL.

WE HAVE A HUGE DEFICIT IN AVAILABLE INVENTORY.

EVEN IF WHEN SOMEBODY EXITS WHEN SOMEBODY EXITS TREATMENT IF SOMEBODY WHO IS WORKING MINIMUM WAGE CANNOT GET INTO HOUSING WHAT ARE WE TO EXPECT SOMEBODY NEWLY IN RECOVERY STARTING THEIR JOURNEY TO BE ABLE TO ATTAIN THAT AFFORDABLE HOUSING?

IT IS A AN ISSUE ACROSS EVERY COUNTY FOR US TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS HOMELESSNESS WE NEED TO ADDRESS OUR AFFORDABLE HOUSING ISSUE.

>> Renee: PICK UP ON THE PROVISIONS THAT TEND TO THE UNHOUSED AND THE PENALTIES THEY WOULD INCUR FOR BEING UNHOUSED AND SLEEPING ON THE STREET OR IN THE CAR.

>> WE BELIEVE THAT HOUSE BILL 5 IS CRUEL AND UNNECESSARY.

LIKE THERE ARE A SLEW OF STATUTES ON THE BOOKS THAT CAN BE USED TO ADDRESS THE BEHAVIORS ASSOCIATED ASSOCIATED WITH HOMELESSNESS.

IF SOMEBODY IS USING THEY CAN BE CHARGED WITH LOITERING.

HARASSING SOMETHING THEY CAN BE CHARGED.

IF THEY ARE CAMPING ON A SIDEWALK THEY CAN BE CHARGED WITH BLOCKING A PUBLIC PASSAGE WE HAVE THE TOOLS ON THE BOOKS.

I DON'T SEE A NEED TO HAVE AN ADDITIONAL CHARGE LIKE LAID ON THEM.

THAT IT'S GOING TO CREATE A NEW BARRIER FOR US TO MOVE PEOPLE INTO HOUSING.

AT THE SAME TIME, BY DEFAULT THIS IS NOT TARGETING HOMELESSNESS AS A CRIME, BY DEFAULT MOST COUNTIES DON'T HAVE A SHELTER N LOUISVILLE WE HAVE 1600 PEOPLE HOMELESS EACH NIGHT AND WE HAVE 750 BEDS WHAT.

IS WORSE WE HAVE 50 FAMILY SPOTS.

BY DEFAULT WE HAVE 20 FAMILIES THAT ARE ON THE WAITING LIST TRYING TO GET INTO SHELTER.

SO FOR US THIS IS A NOT ADDRESSING THE ISSUES WE HAVE AT HAND AND IT'S REALLY NOT GOING TO GUILD THE RESULTS THE SPONSORS ARE LOOKING FOR.

>> Renee: TO THE QUESTION ABOUT THE HOMELESS POPULATION.

THERE IS A SIZABLE YOUTH AND UNDERAGE HOMELESS POPULATION AND WOULD THOSE SAME RESTRICTIONS AND PENALTIES APPLY?

WE UNDERSTAND DURING THE 2021-22 YEAR, THE LAST COMPLETE DATA OF FROM KDE, 21062 CHILDREN WERE IDENTIFIED AS HOMELESS AND ONE-14 KIDS YOUNGER THAN SIX IS HOMELESS.

SINCE THERE IS NOT A MINIMUM AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY WOULD THE CHILDREN POSSIBLY A FOUR-YEAR-OLD BE SUBJECT TO PROSECUTION UNDER HOUSE BILL 5?

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT THIS BILL IS WITH RESPECT TO HOMELESSNESS.

WE DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO BE CHARGED.

GEORGE SAID IT WAS CRUEL AND UNNECESSARY.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS CRUEL.

WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW IS CRUEL.

WE'RE TRYING TO WORK WITH THE MAYOR TO GET MORE FUNDS AND MORE TREATMENT.

BUT WHAT IS CRUEL IS ALLOWING THE PEOPLE ESPECIALLY THE YOUNG KIDS YOU'VE IDENTIFIED ALLOWING THEM TO CAMP OUT OVER THE COMMUNITY.

WE NEED TO HAVE SPOTS FOR THEM.

THIS BILL CALLS ON MAYOR GREENBURG AND LOCAL OFFICIALS TO HAVE A DESIGNATED AREA WHERE PEOPLE CAN CAMP.

IT HAS WATER AND FACILITIES LIKE PORT-A-POTTIES.

TRYING TO GET THE PEOPLE TREATMENT AS WELL.

WITH RESPECT WHETHER THEY ARE CHARGED IF THEY DON'T FOLLOW THE LAW AND GO TO THE DESIGNATED AREA WE ARE HOPING JUDGES DIVERT THEM AND WE HAVE PROGRAMS THAT WE FUND TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TREATMENT.

THIS IS DIFFICULT.

AND I WANT TO COMMEND GEORGE FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE NT THE ADVOCATES WE ARE WITH YOU.

BUT WHAT WE ARE DOING RIGHT NOW IS NOT RIGHT.

AND MAYOR GREENBERG IS SWEEPING UP HOMELESS CAMPS.

IT IS NOT ONLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO FOR THE BUSINESS OWNER AFFECTED, IT'S RIGHT FOR THE PARTICULAR HOMELESS PERSON.

WE'RE TRYING TO GET THEM TREATMENT.

WE ARE NOT TRYING TO HURT ANYBODY.

THIS IS A DEVIL INITIALLY DIFFICULT ISSUE.

>> AND YOU CAN FINE THEM UP TO $250 AND CARRY A JAIL SENTENCE UP TO 90 DAYS.

>> THERE HAS TO BE A PENALTY.

WE'RE TRYING WHEN THEY DON'T VOLUNTEER GIVE ENOUGH OF A UM OF FOR THEM TO GET INTO TREATMENT.

YOU WANT TO GET HOUSING, WE WANT TO DIVERT YOU AND GET YOU TREATMENT BUT THERE HAS TO BE A STICK IF THEY DON'T VOLUNTEER.

>> Renee: REPRESENTATIVE HERRON YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS PART?

>> THIS IS NOT THE WAY WE SHOULD BE CREATING POLICY.

THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

WE ALL AGREE THERE IS A HUGE ISSUE WITH OUR HOMELESS POPULATION AND I ALSO THINK IT'S UNFAIR TO ASSUME THAT EVERYONE WHO IS HOMELESS HAS A MENTAL HEALTH OR SUBSTANCE ABUSE ISSUE THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

I KNOW OF A SINGLE MOTHER WHO HAD TWO KIDS AND HER LANDLORD SAME AND SAID I'M SELLING MY HOUSE YOU GOT 30 DAYS TO GET OUT.

THAT FAMILY WAS HOUSELESS FOR 90 DAYS.

THEY HAD PEOPLE THAT THEY COULD GO AND STAY WITH.

>> THAT IS IMPORTANT.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE HOMELESS NUMBERS THE UNSHELTERED HOMELESS ARE DIFFERENT THAN THE NUMBERS OF HOMELESS.

THE HOMELESS PEOPLE SLEEPING ON THEIR NEIGHBOR'S COUCH OR THE BROTHER'S COUCH THEY COUNT AS HOMELESS.

BUT THEY ARE NOT UNSHELTERED.

THERE ARE VERY, VERY FEW UNSHELTERED CHILDREN.

I WANT TO MAKE THAT DISTINCTION.

>> BUT THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE.

BECAUSE THAT SAME FAMILY SLEPT IN THE CAR A COUPLE NIGHTS.

IT'S THE SAME PEOPLE.

>> WHAT WITH WE THINK OF AS HOMELESSNESS PEOPLE WITH SEVERE MENTAL ILLNESS AND THAT IS 30% OF OUR POPULATION POINT ON OUR COUNT THAT WE DO EVERY JANUARY.

IT IS MUCH MORE MULTIFACETED WHEN WE TALK ABOUT HOMELESSNESS WE HAVE 500 PEOPLE AT ANY GIVEN TIME ARE FLEEING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

500 KIDS INCLUDING 50 ON THE STREETS OR IN THE CARS.

WE HAVE 400 VETERANS THAT ARE HOMELESS.

IT'S NOT A ONE-SIZE-FITS-ALL LIKE TREATMENT PLAN OR LIKE INTERVENTION PLAN.

AND FOR US, LIKE OUR WORST DAY IS FRIDAY.

LIKE WE GET A SHELTER WAITING LIST OF HOW MANY FAMILIES ARE IF IN SHELTER IN THE CARS AND HOW MANY ARE IN THE CAMPS.

AND THE WEEK OF CHRISTMAS WE HAD 11 FAMILIES SELF REPORTING THEY WERE SLEEPING RIGHT THERE.

IT IS GOING TO IMPACT CHILDREN.

IT IS GOING TO IMPACT FAMILIES AND IMPACT THE PERSON THAT IS STILL WORKING AND TRYING TO GO TO WORK EVERYDAY WHILE THEY ARE COUCH SURFING OR SLEEPING IN A CAR.

>> Renee: YOU AGREE WITH ALL THE PROVISIONS IN HOUSE BILL 5.

WHY THIS PARTICULAR ONE DO YOU THINK IS NEEDED WHEN IT COMES TO ADDRESSING THE HOMELESS POPULATION?

>> I TALKED ABOUT THE BILL OVERALL BEING A SAFETY ISSUE FOR OUR OFFICERS.

AND THAT CLEARLY IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST ONES IS WHEN YOU ARE COMING UP AND WANTING TO HELP BUT HAVING JUST THE LARGE POPULATION AGAIN, I CAN ONLY SPEAK FROM MY TIME IN LOUISVILLE.

IT'S JUST SO OVERWHELMING YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE WALKING INTO.

HAVING TOOLS AND AVENUES TO LOOK AT TO GET THE FOLKS HELP WE WILL BE SUPPORTIVE OF THAT.

I PARTICIPATED IN THE WALK FOR THE HOMELESS COALITION IN JANUARY TO COUNT THE FAMILIES TO CHECK ON THAT.

IT IS A WONDERFUL THING ALL OF OUR GROUPS ARE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN.

BUT TO SPEAK TO REPRESENTATIVE NEMES AND I THINK A LOT OF OUR FOLKS, WE NEED MORE.

WE NEED MORE HELP AND CLEARLY THIS BILL IS GOING TO GIVE US THAT.

THERE'S NO LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER THAT WILL BE EXCITED ABOUT GOING OUT AND TRYING TO ARREST SOMEBODY SLEEPING IN A CAR OR SLEEPING ON THE SIDEWALK.

THEY WANT TO GET THEM HELP AND WE WANT TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT WE DO THAT ALREADY.

>> Renee: SO WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A POLICE OFFICER COMES UP ON SOMEBODY OR PEOPLE WHO WERE SLEEPING IN A CAR.

WHAT WOULD THE RESPONSE BE?

>> THERE'S IT DEPENDS THERE'S CIRCUMSTANCES.

THERE IS NO ONE RESPONSE TO IT.

IF THEY ARE NOT COMMITTING A CRIME.

I RECOGNIZE WHAT THE BILL WILL DO BUT IN THE CURRENT FORM THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER WILL FIGURE OUT SOME WAY TO GET THAT FAMILY HELP, ESPECIALLY IF THERE ARE CHILDREN.

I CAN'T TELL YOU THE NUMBER OF STORIES I KNOW A POLICE OFFICERS GONE AND SPENT THEIR OWN MONEY TO PUT PEOPLE UP FOR THE NIGHT TO GET THEM OUT OF THE CAR OR SOMEONE WHO NEEDED A MEAL OR KIDS GETTING THEM TO SCHOOL.

LAW ENFORCEMENT DO SO MANY THINGS THAT THE COMMUNITY HAS NO IDEA ABOUT.

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TO DO IS TO SERVE AND PROTECT AND THAT IS A WIDE RANGING SCOPE OF THINGS.

I DON'T THINK THAT THE IDEA OF THE BILL IS TO GO OUT AND SEE HOW MANY HOMELESS PEOPLE LAW ENFORCEMENT CAN ARREST.

I THINK IT'S TO GO OUT THERE AND GIVE US A DIFFERENT AVENUE SHOULD WE NEED THAT ABILITY TO DO THAT.

>> Renee: THIS QUESTION AND I WILL COME BACK TO YOU AND MAYBE PERHAPS YOU CAN RESPOND, THERE WAS A HOMELESS MAN FROM THE VIEWER THAT FROZE TO DEATH IN VERSAILLES LAST WEEK.

HOW DOES THIS BILL DO ANYTHING TO SAVE OTHERS IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS?

>> ISN'T IT THE POINT?

THAT POINT IT'S THAT MAN.

IT'S COMMUNITY LARGELY.

THAT'S NOT COMPASSIONATE TO LET THAT MAN DIE OF FREEZING.

WE WANT TO CATAPULT THE SITUATION FORWARD.

WE WANT LOCAL OFFICIALS TO HAVE A DESIGNATED SAFE AREA WHERE WE CAN HELP PEOPLE.

AND IF THEY WON'T DO THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE A STICK.

THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE CRIMINAL LAW ALL AROUND BUT WE'RE TRYING TO HELP THAT PERSON.

WE'RE ALSO TRYING AS WE KNOW, OUR TOURISM NUMBERS IN LOUISVILLE ARE DOWN.

GOING BACK UP THANKFULLY.

BUT PEOPLE IN OUR NECK OF THE WOODS TELL US AND ALSO PEOPLE COMING TO LOUISVILLE FOR PROGRAMMING FOR CONVENTIONS, SAY OUR HOMELESS PROBLEM IS A PROBLEM.

IT'S NOT NEARLY THE PROBLEM IT IS IN SAN FRANCISCO AND CHICAGO AND ATLANTA.

LET'S NOT GET THERE.

WE'RE TRYING TO ARREST THE PROBLEM NOW.

GIVE OPTIONS.

WHAT WE'RE DOING RIGHT NOW IS NOT WORKING.

>> Renee: I WAS GOING TO SAY IF WE'RE REALLY TRYING TO HELP, HOW DOES IT HELP TO SUBJECT THEM TO ARREST AND FINES THAT WE KNOW THEY CAN'T PAY.

>> THEY HAVE EVERY OPPORTUNITY OF INCARCERATING THEM ESPECIALLY IN LOUISVILLE WHERE WE HAD ISSUES WITH OUR JAIL.

ALL OF OUR GOAL IS TO DO THE THINGS THAT RYAN TALKED ABOUT, WHY DON'T WE HAVE PROVISIONS IN THE BILL THAT DO THAT AND GET RID OF THE CRIMINAL PENALTIES AND FINES THAT THE INDIVIDUALS CANNOT PAY.

>> WHEN PEOPLE DON'T DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE DOING.

WE ARE TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TREATED NOT ALL ARE MENTAL HEALTH OR SUBSTANCE ABUSE 70% ARE.

THAT IS WHAT THE STUDIES SHOW.

WHILE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE THOSE ISSUES.

70% HAVE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES OR SUBSTANCE ABUSE AND WE NEED TO GET THEM HELP.

>> WE ALL AGREE.

THAT IS CLEAR HERE.

ALL SIX OF US AGREE THAT WE HAVE TO HELP THIS POPULATION.

THE STATUS QUO IS NOT GOING TO WORK.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO ACCEPT THAT BECAUSE THE POPULATION IS EXPLODING ESPECIALLY IN THE AREA THAT WE SERVE.

WE HAVE PROPOSED THIS CHANGE.

>> AND WHAT YOU WANT THE PEOPLE HERE TO KNOW AND THE VIEWERS THE KENTUCKIANS TO KNOW IS THAT NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE THIS BILL BUT WE ALSO HAVE HOUSE BILL 18 THAT PUTS RESTRICTIONS ON HOUSING BASED ON INCOME.

SO AND ONE SETTING WE SAY NO WE WANT HOUSING FOR FOLKS.

BUT THEN ANOTHER PIECE OF LEGISLATION LATER ON MAYBE THIS WEEK, THAT WE'RE GOING TO PASS A BILL THAT SAYS LANDLORDS CAN DENY A RENTAL FOR FOLKS BASED ON INCOME.

SO THESE TWO THINGS ARE GOING TO BE COLLIDING.

SO WITH THOSE TWO PROVISIONS THAT TWO BILLS WE'RE GOING TO BE IN TROUBLE HERE.

>> MAKE THAT MAKE SENSE.

>> HOUSE BILL 18 SAYS THAT IF YOU ARE AN OWNER AND YOU MADE THE INVESTMENTS YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE SOMEONE WHO RECEIVES SECTION 8.

THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN SOURCE OF INCOME.

YES, SECTION 8 MIGHT BE CONSIDERED INCOME BUT IT'S SAYING AND IT'S ONLY THAT LAW ONLY EXISTS IN LOUISVILLE.

IF YOU MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT IT'S PROBLEMATIC NOT TO HAVE THAT LAW WHAT ABOUT FRANKFORT?

A LOT OF PEOPLE SAID IT IS A RACIST LAW IS FRANKFORT RACE NIFT I DON'T THINK THAT A FAIR ARTICULATION WHAT HOUSE BILL 18 IS.

THAT NOT THE SAFER KENTUCKY ACT.

BUT HOUSE BILL 18 IS NOT WHAT THAT SAID.

>> Renee: A VIEWER ASKED HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THIS WILL COST TO IMPLEMENT EVERYTHING PROPOSED IN THE BILL GOING BACK TO THE FIRST QUESTION I ASKED.

HOW DIFFERENT WOULD THE STATE LOOK SHE SAYS IF WE USE THOSE FUNDS AND REENTRY THAT WORK AND MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES AND CREATE PROACTIVE THINGS FOR OUR YOUTH TO DO?

>> YES.

AND WE HAVE REENTRY IN THE BILL.

WE HAVE REGULAR EVALUATIONS OF OUR PROGRAM.

SO WE CAN IDENTIFY THE PROGRAMS THAT ARE WORKING WELL ADEQUATELY FUND AND INVEST IN THOSE PROGRAMS.

WE HAVE GROUP VIOLENCE INTERVENTION.

>> Renee: WHAT WHICH MEANS WHAT?

INCH.

>> AND THE COST THE PAROLERIES THAT IS DEMONSTRATED A REDUCTION IN RECIDIVISM.

>> Renee: IN LOUISVILLE THAT IS NOT PROVEN?

IT'S SLOW TO SHOW THERE'S SUCCESS WITH THE VIOLENT PRE-- >> THAT IS NOT TRUE.

THE PROBLEM WE'RE HAVING IT'S NOT REQUIRED.

THE PEOPLE WHO GO IT HELPS.

BUT THE PEOPLE THAT GO THE MOST THEY DON'T GO IT IS NOT REQUIRED.

SO WE'RE REQUIRING IT.

AS JARED SAID WE ARE GOING TO LOOK AT OUR PRISON PROGRAMS FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE SUCCESS AND NOT COMMIT ACTS OF VIOLENCE.

AND HERE IS A PROBLEM I'M HAVING WITH THE DISCUSSION IT IS A GOOD HEALTHY DISCUSSION IT IS NOT AN EITHER OR.

THE BILL IS NOT AN EITHER OR.

THE LEGISLATURE IS NOT AN EITHER OR.

EITHER TREATMENT OR TOUGH ON CRIME.

IT'S BOTH AND.

WE WANT TO LOVE ON YOU.

IF YOU NEED TREATMENT ADDICTED WE WILL THROW TREATMENT AT YOU.

IF YOU DON'T WANT IT WE WANT TO THROW IT AT YOU ANYWAY.

WE WANT YOU TO DO RIGHT FOR YOU AND NOT ONLY THE COMMUNITY YOU MIGHT HARM AND AT THE SAME TIME AND THIS IS AN AND.

IF YOU COMMIT ACTS OF VIOLENCE AGAINST OUR PEOPLE WE WANT YOU TO GO TO PRISON.

THIS IS A BOTH AND THIS IS NOT WE'RE BEING TOUGH AND NOT FOR TREATMENT.

IT IS THE OPPOSITE.

>> THAT'S REALLY NOT A LOT OF REENTRY THERE.

OBVIOUSLY IT'S GOOD THING TO EVALUATE THE PROGRAMS WE HAVE FOR INDIVIDUALS.

I WILL SAY ONE PROVISION IS AROUND THAT AND THAT IS GIVING ID'S TO INDIVIDUALS LEAVING COUNTY JAILS AND EXPANDING THAT.

I WILL SAY THAT WILL NEED AN APPROPRIATIONS TO ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING.

SO I'M LOOKING TO THE OTHER SIDE TO GET THAT INTO THE BUDGET THAT IS WHAT IS GOING TO BE NEEDED.

OTHER THINGS GREAT FOR REENTRY IS GETTING PEOPLE BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE.

AND ONE WAY OF DOING THAT IS PEOPLE WHO ARE JUSTICE INVOLVED AND HAVE RECORDS IS AUTOMATED EXPUNGEMENT.

MAKING IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO GET EXPUNGEMENTS AND GET HIRED.

THOSE ARE THINGS THAT ARE REENTRY.

>> AND REPRESENTATIVE MOESER HAS A BILL THAT I SUPPORT AND I HOPE MOVES FORWARD AND I AGREE ON THAT.

THE BILL IS ONE BILL OF MANY.

AND WITH RESPECT TO GETTING PEOPLE UP AND READY TO GO BACK TO WORK, THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE MOST THE BEST AND THE MOST PER CAPITA ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY PLACES LIKE THE HEALING PLACE.

WHICH SAVES LIVES.

LIKE THE VOA.

>> Renee: VOLUNTEERS OF AMERICA.

>> ISAIAH HOUSE.

THESE THINGS ARE WHAT DESIGNED TO DO THOSE TYPES OF THINGS WE HAVE MORE THAN ANY STATE.

DO WE HAVE ENOUGH?

NO, WE NEED MORE BUT WE ARE DOING BETTER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE IS.

>> REN NEW, THE ISSUE I HAVE IS I THINK MY COLLEAGUES CARE ABOUT THE ISSUE AND THEY REALLY WANT TO FIND SOLUTIONS.

THE ISSUE I HAVE WITH THE PROVISIONS AND HOW THIS WAS DONE, WE HAD A JAIL AND PRISON TASK FORCE IN THE INTERIM.

AND THE JAILERS TOLD US THAT THEY ARE HURTING.

THAT IT'S OVERCRUDDED.

THEY CAN'T FIND PEOPLE TO WORK AND THE OTHER THING THEY TALKED ABOUT WAS A LACK OF CLASSIFICATION.

WHAT THAT MEANS IS BASICALLY YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE SITTING IN JAIL AND THEY CAN'T GET CLASSIFIED FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS.

IF FOLKS ARE NOT CLASSIFIED THEN THEY CAN'T GET INTO PROGRAMS.

SO THE ISSUE I HAVE IS RIGHT NOW THE CURRENT SYSTEM AND WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS NOT WORKING.

SO WHAT I WOULD HAVE PREFERRED WHAT I THINK IS BEST POLICY MAKING IS THAT WE FIND OUT WHAT DO WE NEED TO GO WHERE ARE THE HOLES?

NOT THAT CREATE 26 PLUS NEW PROVISIONS, CREATE A NEW LAW DO ALL THE ENHANCEMENTS AND DO THAT AT THE SAME TIME.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET THE RIGHT ANSWER.

SO THAT HAS BEEN MY ISSUE WITH THIS AND THEN, OF COURSE, THE ISSUE THE FACT WE DO NOT HAVE A FISCAL IMPACT STATEMENT.

I THINK THAT IS BAD POLICY MAKING.

I THINK THAT THAT IS TO ME THAT IS DANGEROUS.

IF YOU TALK ABOUT MAKING SOMETHING UNSAFE, HAVING A 72-PAGE CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL THAT IS LOOKING AT MORE PENAL CODES 0 ENHANCEMENTS AND NOT KNOWING HOW MUCH IT'S GOING TO COST THAT'S DANGEROUS.

>> IT'S NEEDED, THOUGH, BECAUSE OUR STATUTE NEEDED MODERNIZATION.

WE NEEDED THAT.

A LOT OF KENTUCKIANS WOULD BE SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT ATTEMPTED MURDER IS NOT CONSIDERED A VIOLENT CRIME IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

CARJACKING IS NOT CONSIDERED A VIOLENT CRIME.

ARSON THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VERY HAIN NOWS VIOLENT CONTACTS HAT ARE NOT CONSIDERED SO UNDER KENTUCKY STATUTE AND WE NEEDED TO MODERNIZE THOSE.

>> I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE THIS SHOULD BE DONE ON A SURGICAL LEVEL WHAT ARE THE ACTUAL ISSUES WHAT REPRESENTATIVE HERRON WAS SAYING RATHER THAN THE WIDE EXPANSE OF APPROACH WHERE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT LOWERING THE THRESHOLDS FOR CRIMINAL MISCHIEF FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE RENTING.

RIGHT NOW IF YOU COMMIT OVER $500 OF DAMAGE WANTLY TO A RENTAL UNIT YOU CAN BE CHARGED WITH A CLASS A MISDEMEANOR.

THIS BILL WOULD LOWER THAT DOWN TO $1.

IF YOU PUT A HOLE IN THE WALL AND IT COSTS $3.50.

>> THIS IS NOT FOR HANGING YOUR TV ON THE WALL BUT KNOWINGLY DESTROYING PROPERTY.

>> IT IS GOING TO IMPACT PEOPLE WITH SMALL CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WITH PETS.

>> IT'S GOING TO IMPACT PEOPLE THAT INTENTIONALLY DESTROY PROPERTY.

>> BUT ALL THAT DAMAGE SHOULD BE COVERED BY YOUR SECURITY DEPARTMENT.

IN LOUISVILLE WE SPEND $2500 PER PERSON WE PUT INTO HOUSING FOR THE SECURITY DEPOSIT.

THAT SHOULD COVER ALL OF THOSE EASILY LIKE SMALL DAMAGES TO A UNIT.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT SOMEBODY WHO POURS CONCRETE DOWN THE TOILET.

>> I AGREE BUT THOSE SECURITY DEPOSITS WILL CONTINUE TO RISE AND THEY HAVE BECAUSE OF THE DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTIES THE LANDLORDS -- >> AND THAT IS THE PROPERTY OF THE LANDLORD F THERE IS A FINANCIAL BOND THAT THE LANDLORD IS HOLDING IN A BANK ACCOUNT THAT SHOULD COVER IT.

WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO GO AFTER.

>> -- DON'T DESTROY THE PROPERTY.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO GET BACK TO YOUR POINT ABOUT THE MODERATION OF OUR PENAL CODE.

I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT WE NEEDED THAT.

AND REPRESENTATIVE NEMES MY FIRST YEAR IN THE SESSION HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION 87 WHICH YOU COSPONSORED TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT OUR CRIMINAL CODE WAS WRITTEN OVER 40 YEARS AGO.

AND THAT OVER TIME WE HAD CUSTOM CRIMES, UNEVEN PENALTY SCHEMES AND WE NEEDED TO CREATE A TASK FORCE TO LOOK AT THE CRIMINAL CODE AND WE AGREED WITH YOU.

HB5 IS NOT THAT.

SO WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION 87 AND NOT HOUSE BILL 5.

>> Renee: LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT SOME CALLED THE DRUG INDUCED HOMICIDE LAWS.

ENHANCEMENTS FOR SELLING FENTANYL THAT COULD BE LEADING TO A FATAL OVERDOSE.

THIS QUESTION FROM A VIEWER HOW DOES THE PROVISION IMPACT THE GOOD SAMARITAN LAW THAT LAW PROTECTS DRUG USERS FROM PENALTIES WHEN THEIR FRIENDS DIE OF AN OVERDOSE.

>> THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

>> AND WE HEARD DURING THE TESTIMONY ON THURSDAY THAT THERE WAS KENTUCKY DERBY THIS COULD IN FACT DO HARM AND PEOPLE WOULD NOT DO WHAT THEY WOULD HELP TO EN REMEMBER EMERGENCY AID WHEN THEY WITNESSED AN OVERDOSE.

>> THAT LAW WILL BE IN PLAY COMPLETELY.

[AUDIO INTERRUPTION] ABECAUSE WE INCLUDELY WANT TO STILL PROVIDE THAT FOR FOLKS THAT ARE TRYING TO HELP SOMEONE IN AN OVERDOSE SITUATION.

WE DO NOT WANT THAT PERSON BEING HARMED CRIMINALLY FOR THAT.

>> Renee: THIS IS ABOUT TRAFFICKING FENTANYL NOT SHARING IN THE USE OF A DRUG THAT COULD CONTAIN.

>> CORRECT.

>> FENTANYL.

>> SELLING.

>> I WOULD DISAGREE.

THE DISDISTRIBUTION NO AMOUNT.

>> WE KNOW THAT THIS FENTANYL IS POISON AND IT'S KICK OUR PEOPLE.

WILLING OUR PEOPLE.

SO -- KILLING OUR PEOPLE.

WE NEED TO CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE IF YOU KNOWINGLY SELL FOR-PROFIT MOTIVE POISON TO SOMEONE AND KILL THEM, THEN YOU WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

>> THERE ARE TWO PROVISIONS.

WE AMEND THE MURDER STATUTE TO WHERE IT SAYS IF YOU KNOWINGLY SELL FENTANYL ZERO AMOUNT AND A DEATH RESULTS OF THAT, YOU CAN BE FOUND GUILTY OF MURDER.

THEN THERE'S MANSLAUGHTER WORDS FOR BASICALLY DISTRIBUTION WHERE YOU DISTRIBUTE IT AGAIN NO AMOUNT WHICH YOU ARE GOING TO CAPTURE USERS BUT -- SO THE AMOUNT IS NOT THERE.

WHAT YOU END UP GETTING ARE PEOPLE LIKE ME WHEN I WAS IN ACTIVE ADDICTION, YOU SHARE YOUR SUBSTANCE, SOMEONE HAPPENED TO BE THERE AND DIE, I COULD BE CHARGED WITH A HOMICIDE.

AND HERE IS THE OTHER THING.

YOU CAN GOOGLE IT NOW AND LOOK TO SEE WHEN THE CURRENT MANSLAUGHTER CHARGES HAVE BEEN FILED AGAINST INDIVIDUALS IT IS A FRIEND OR A FAMILY MEMBER.

I DON'T THINK LAW ENFORCEMENT HAS EVER CHARGED ANYBODY UNDER THAT WHO WAS BRINGING TONS OF FENTANYL INTO THE COUNTRY.

>> Renee: THAT BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT IS IT GOING TO TARGET THE WRONG PEOPLE THE FAMILY AND FRIENDS WHO WITNESS THE OVERDOSE AND NOT THE HIGH DEALING DRUG TRAFFICKER?

>> NO, IT DOES BOTH.

IF YOU SELL IT FOR-PROFIT MOTIVE, THAT IS A HIGHER CRIME.

BUT WHAT HE WAS SAYING IS IF YOU KNOWINGLY DISTRIBUTE FENTANYL WE KNOW THAT.

>> Renee: YOU KNOW THE DRUG HAS IT IN IT AND SOMETIMES PEOPLE DON'T KNOW.

>> THEN THEY WOULD NOT VIOLATE THE LAW.

>> Renee: HOW DO YOU PROVE?

>> THE KNOWINGLY LEVEL.

>> KNOWINGLY IS DEFINED IN KENTUCKY LAW FOR 100 YEARS A TERM OF OURS THAT WE USE.

IF YOU DON'T KNOW THERE'S FENTANYL IN IT IT DOESN'T QUALIFY.

IT SAYS HE OR SHE KNOWINGLY DISTRIBUTES FENTANYL TO ANOTHER PERSON, WITHOUT REMUNERATION AND THE INJECTION INHALATION OR INTRODUCTION OF THE FENTANYL CAUSES THE DEFENDANT OF THE PERSON.

KNOWINGLY DISTRIBUTES FENTANYL TO A PERSON.

IF YOU DON'T KNOW THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING THEN YOU HAVE NOT VIOLATED THIS.

THIS IS VERY -- >> WE NEED TO MAKE THAT CLEAR BECAUSE I THINK THERE'S CASE LAW WHERE THE KNOWINGLY IS NOT WHAT MOST PEOPLE AND TO CLEARLY KNOW THAT YOU SHOULD SAY YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT THAT INDIVIDUAL HAD ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE IT HAD FENTANYL OTHERWISE YOU ARE GOING TO CAPTURE A LOT OF FOLKS.

IF WE CAN WORD IT BETTER IT'S WORDED CORRECTLY BUT WE'RE OPEN FOR THAT.

WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE WHO ARE EVEN USING THINGS THOUGH THEY SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT TO BE CHARGED.

WE KNOW FENTANYL IN TRACE AMOUNTS IS DEADLY.

>> Renee: ABSOLUTELY.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY AS UNFORTUNATE THAT WOULD BE AND FOLKS CAUGHT UP IN IT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE ON THE LAW ENFORCEMENT SIDE, WE DON'T DIFFERENTIATE THAT THAT COULD KILL US IF WE'RE COMING TO HELP YOU I APPRECIATIVE ADDICTION AND APPRECIATE GETTING ALL THE TREATMENT, BUT IT CAN KILL OUR PEOPLE.

AND WE'RE TRYING TO HELP YOU AND I GET THAT THERE IS AN ARGUMENT IF IT IS A CHOICE OR NOT A CHOICE.

BUT WHEN WE'RE HAVING TO CARRY NARCAN NOT JUST TO HELP OTHER PEOPLE, BUT TO HELP SOMEONE THAT MIGHT BE RESPONDING ON A CALL OR HOPE TO GOD SOMEONE HELPS US IF WE HAVE AN ACCIDENTAL OVERDOSE FROM FENTANYL.

FENTANYL SHUT DOWN AN OFFICE IN LOUISVILLE FOR TWO DAYS.

THE SIZE OF IT WAS HALF OF A DIME.

AND SOMEONE BROUGHT THAT IN AND LEFT IT THERE.

IT IS AN ABSOLUTELY IT IS THE POISON OF THE WORST POISON.

>> Renee: THIS BILL IS NOT TO UNDERCUT HARM REDUCTION EFFORTS, GOOD SAMARITAN LAWS THOSE THINGS?

BUT DO YOU SEE WHERE THAT COULD BE IN SOME PEOPLE'S EYES COMPETING BASED ON SOME OF THE LANGUAGE IN THE BILL?

>> WE DO.

WE DISAGREE WITH THAT THOUGH THEY SAID IT WE DISAGREE WITH IT.

THE FLOOR AMENDMENT IMPROVES THE GOOD SAMARITAN LAW.

WE'VE TAKEN THAT WHICH WE DON'T THINK WAS RIGHT OUT OF GOOD FAITH IMPROVED OUR GOOD SAMARITAN LAW ACROSS THE BOARD IN THE FLOOR AMENDMENT.

>> THIS IS A CLEAR DEMONSTRATION HOW OUR TEAM SOME FOLKS SAY IT'S RUSHED, BUT WE HAVE WORKED WITH THE THREE FOLKS ON PANEL HERE WITH US TONIGHT, AND ALL STAKEHOLDERS ANYBODY THAT WANTED TO SEAT AT THE STABLE AS WE'VE GONE THROUGH THE PROCESS HAS BEEN GIVEN A SEAT AT THE TABLE AND WE HAVE LISTENED TO FEEDBACK AND ADAPTED AND ADJUSTED OUR POLICY EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

WE FILED HOUSE BILL 100 THAT CAME OUT OF DISCUSSIONS WITH Mr. EKLUND TO HELP ENSURE THAT THE HOMELESS POPULATION RECEIVES BIRTH CERTIFICATES WHEN NEEDED.

WE'VE WORKED VERY WELL WITH ALL STAKEHOLDERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THESE ISSUES.

>> Renee: THAT BILL HAS NOT BEEN VOTED ON HOUSE BILL 100?

IT'S COME OUT OF COMMITTEE BUT HAS NOT BEEN ON THE FLOOR YET.

WE'LL LOOK FOR THAT SOON.

APPRECIATE THAT BILLTH THAT IS A BASE HIT EFFORT.

>> ANYTIME WE CAN PASS POLICY THAT WILL MOVE PEOPLE TOWARDS HOUSING THAT IS WHAT WE'RE WORKING ON.

GETTING PEOPLE ID'S AND BIRTH CERTIFICATES AND GETTING MORE HOUSING ON THE INVENTORY THAT IS GREAT.

ANYTIME WE CAN PREVENT HOMELESSNESS ADDRESSING WHAT REPRESENTATIVE HERRON WAS SAYING GIVING PEOPLE THREE-MONTH OFF-RAMP TO FINDING A NEW RENTAL HOUSING IF THEIR LANDLORD IS ENDING THE LEASE.

THOSE ARE THE POLICIES WE WOULD SUPPORT.

BUT THIS IS STILL LIKE I FEEL LIKE HOUSE BILL 5 IS STILL NOT MOVING US TOWARDS GETTING PEOPLE INTO HOUSING.

>> Renee: HOW MANY FLOOR AMENDMENTS?

>> MY FRIEND HERE HAS FOUR.

[LAUGHTER] >> .

>> Renee: MAYBE FIVE.

>> 12 THAT HAVE BEEN FILED SOME WE WILL INCORPORATE AND SOME WE WILL HAVE A SPIRITED DEBATE AND A VOTE ON THE FLOOR.

>> Renee: TIMELINE WHEN THAT COULD HAPPEN?

>> I DON'T KNOW YET.

>> THIS QUESTION TO BOTH OF THE REPRESENTATIVES ON THIS SIDE FROM CATHERINE FROM LOUISVILLE.

MANY PARTS OF THE BILL WERE LIFTED FROM RIGHT-WING POLICY THINK TANK CAN YOU SPEAK TO HOW YOU WORK WITH THEM TO FILE THIS LEGISLATION?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT IS TRUE WE LIFT TO DO STRAIGHT FROM THEM.

WE CERTAINLY CONSIDERED A LOT OF DIFFERENT INPUTS AS PART OF OUR PROCESS WHEN IT CAME TO DATA AND RESEARCH AND WE CERTAINLY CONSIDERED SOME OF THEIRS.

WE DID NOT PLUG AND PLAY DIRECTLY FROM THEM.

>> THAT IS RIGHT.

JOHN TALKED TO A NUMBER OF GROUPS TO GET THOSE PROVISIONS IN THERE.

BUT THIS IS A KENTUCKY-DRIVEN PROCESS.

REPRESENTATIVE BAUMAN TO HIS CREDIT DRAFTED ALMOST ALL OF THIS.

THERE ARE A COUPLE PROVISIONS WE WORKED ON I DID THE MENTAL HEALTH PROVISION AND FLEMING AND SUSAN AND CALLAWAY, WE'VE WORKED TOGETHER ON THAT THIS IS DRAFTED BY KENTUCKIANS FOR KENTUCKY THIS IS NOT AN OUT OF STATE OR RIGHT-WING ORGANIZATION THAT DRAFTED THIS.

>> SHE SAID IN COMMITTEE LAST WEEK, I BELIEVE THERE'S 10 BILLS ROLLED INTO ONE.

DO YOU SEE THIS BILL EVOLVING WHERE PARTS ARE INCLUDED?

AND OTHER PARTS FALL AWAY?

>> CONTINUING TO EVOLVE.

I WOULD SAY THAT REPRESENTATIVE FLEMINGS' MA'AM BUS BILL IS IN ONE WHICH I THINK IS GOOD.

WHEN YOU HAVE GOOD HERE WHAT IS WRONG?

WE'VE REDUCED THINGS AND TOOK THINGS OUT THAT HAD TO DO WITH THE PAROLE BOARD BECAUSE WE HAD MEMBERS.

>> Renee: AND WIRETAPPING WAS OUT.

WE HAVE BEEN ADAPTING FROM THE BEGINNING THIS WILL NOT EVOLVE IT WILL CONTINUE TO EVOLVE AND THE SENATE WILL HAVE ITS SAY ALSO ABOUT HOUSE BILL 5.

>> I WANT TO SAY SOMETHING AND I APPRECIATE BOTH OF THE REPRESENTATIVES WHO ARE HERE.

WE TALK ON A REGULAR BASIS.

REPRESENTATIVE BAUMAN SITS IN FRONT OF ME SO WE JOKE EVERYDAY.

BUT I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR.

WE WERE NOT CRUDED IN THIS UNTIL -- INCLUDED UNTIL THIS POINT.

>> THAT IS NOT FAIR.

>> NO, THAT IS VERY FAIR WHEN THEY ROLLED OUT THIS BILL IT WAS ALL REPUBLICANS FROM JEFFERSON COUNTY SAID THIS IS WHAT THEY WERE GOING TO DO.

IT WAS AFTER THE FACT.

I DIDN'T SEE THIS PIECE OF LEGISLATION UNTIL DECEMBER 14TH.

YES, I KNEW THE CONCEPTS BUT TO SAY THAT WE WERE AT THE TABLE THAT'S NOT ACCURATE.

AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME.

YES, WE HAVE HAD GOOD COMMUNICATION.

BUT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE PEOPLE OF KENTUCKY TO KNOW WE WERE NOT AT THE TABLE AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS.

>> BUT YOU HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE.

>> THAT IS NOT ACCURATE.

>> WE MADE THAT PUBLIC AND GAVE EVERYONE THE OPPORTUNITY.

KUNGU NJUGUNA CAME TO MY OFFICE AND YOU COULD HAVE AS WELL.

CHOSE NOT TO.

>> I WILL TELL YOU LIKE YOUR COLLEAGUES TELL ME, IT'S HARD TO SAY YES OR NO ON SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE LANGUAGE.

THERE WAS AN IDEA, IDEAS FLOATING AROUND.

THERE WAS NEVER A PHONE CALL SAID, HEY, JEFFERSON DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS, LET'S GET TOGETHER THESE ARE THE THINGS WE'RE THINKING ABOUT.

LET'S SIT DOWN.

THAT NEVER HAPPENED, EVER.

>> WE HAD A NUMBER OF MONTHS WHEN IT WAS OUT THERE AND TALKED TO A NUMBER OF PEOPLE INCLUDING MEMBERS OF OUR CAUCUS.

SO I'M PROUD OF THE PROCESS HERE.

THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST TRANSPARENT PROCESSES SINCE I'VE BEEN THERE.

AND IT HAS BEEN.

AND THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING.

WE HAVE MADE A NUMBER OF CHANGES BASED ON SUGGESTIONS FROM OUR FRIENDS ACROSS THE AISLE AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO THAT.

I KNOW OUR FRIENDS LIKE TO TAKE SHOTS WHEN THEY DON'T LIKE THE PROCESS BUT THIS IS -- >> IT IS NOT A SHOT.

I WANT KENTUCKIANS TO KNOW WE ARE PART OF THE PROCESS NOW.

I SENT YOU AN E-MAIL, BUT WE WERE NOT THERE AT THE BEGINNING AND THAT IS VERY ACCURATE AND KENTUCKIANS NEED TO KNOW THAT.

>> Renee: LET ME ASK A QUESTION THERE WAS A REPORT THAT CAME OUT AND ITS ANALYSIS OF HOUSE BILL 5 AND THERE'S BEEN AN INCREASE OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES WHEN IT COMES TO DRUG LAWS AND PARTICULARLY FENTANYL AND FENTANYL DERIVATIVES THERE ARE THREE BILLS SENATE BILL BILL 192, HOUSE BILL 333, AND HOUSE BILL 215 IN 2022.

ARE THOSE WORKING?

AND IF THOSE ARE WORKING, WHY DO YOU NEED THIS?

AND IF THEY ARE NOT WORKING, THEN IT'S SAYING THAT THERE MAYBE NEED A DIFFERENT APPROACH ALL THE WAY AROUND PERHAPS?

>> SO I THINK I DON'T THINK WE CAN GET SERIOUS ENOUGH ABOUT FENTANYL AND FINALLY WE'VE REACHED THE RIGHT RESULT.

FENTANYL IS DIFFERENT IN KIND IT'S DIFFERENT ACROSS THE BOARD IT IS NOT COCAINE OR METH OR HEROIN WHERE IT HURTS THE USER.

FENTANYL KILLS COPS WHEN THEY TOUCH IT.

FENTANYL KILLS KID.

FENTANYL IS DIFFERENT IN KIND.

THIS IS THE RIGHT RESULT.

AND MY FRIEND WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN HE WAS YOUNGER AND I'M PROUD OF HIM OVERCOMING HIS SUBSTANCE ABUSE PROBLEMS.

HE IS A LOCK TIME FRIEND BOUGHT THIS WASN'T THE SAME.

THESE WEREN'T THE DRUGS THAT WERE AROUND WHEN WE WERE YOUNGER.

AS YOU KNOW.

I'M NOT PREACHING TO YOU YOU KNOW THIS.

THIS IS DIFFERENT IN KIND.

SO IT NEEDS TO BE TREATED DIFFERENTLY IN KIND.

>> I WILL DISAGREE IN A SENSE THAT AS I SAID AT THE TESTIMONY WE ARE IN THE AGE OF SYNTHETIC OPIOIDS.

THIS IS JUST THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE GOING THERE.

AND A FOCUS JUST ON THE SUBSTANCE DOESN'T FIX IT.

WE NEED TO FOCUS ON TREATMENT.

I THINK AS KY POLICY FOLKS HAVE SAID WE KEEP PASSING LAWS AFTER LAWS AFTER LAWS IN THE LAST DECADE FROM 2011-2001 -- 2021.

INCARCERATION AND THE PENALTIES DON'T WORK IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SAFER KENTUCKY ACT AND MAKE US SAFE AND INCREASING PENALTIES.

THAT'S FAILED POLICIES.

>> Renee: SO GO AHEAD Mr.

STRAW.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER THAN REPRESENTATIVE NEMES ON THE FENTANYL ISSUE.

I THINK THAT THERE IS AN ARGUMENT IN LOOKING ON SOCIAL MEDIA OR READING THE STORIES ABOUT SAFER KENTUCKY IT'S FOP OR LAW ENFORCEMENT WE DON'T SHOW COMPASSION IN THE MOMENTS AND THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO BE COMPASSIONATE AND SAY WE UNDERSTAND THE COMMUNITY WE ARE DEALING WITH.

I THINK WE ARE BEING COMPASSIONATE AND SAYING LOOK WE WANT TO GET YOU THE HELP BUT THIS STUFF IS SO DANGEROUS YOU ARE ASKING US TO BE COMPASSIONATE ABOUT SOMETHING THAT COULD KILL US BY JUST GOING TO A AGAIN, NO CALL IS GENERIC BUT TO ANY CALL THAT HAS FENNAL INVOLVED IN IT YOU ARE ASKING US TO WALK IN THAT ROOM, AND PUT OUR LIFE AT STAKE TO HELP SOMEONE THAT WE WANT TO HELP BUT WE CAN'T.

YOU'RE ASKING US TO BE COMPASSIONATE IT'S DIFFICULT WHEN YOU ARE ASKING US TO HARM OURSELVES TO GET TO YOU.

>> Renee: GOING BACK TO THE HOMELESS PROVISIONS THIS QUESTION FROM A VIEWER WHAT HAPPENS AFTER AN INDIVIDUAL COMPLETES MANDATED TREATMENT AND THEN THEY RETURN TO HOMELESSNESS?

>> IT'S IT WILL DEPEND ON THAT PERSON.

ARE THEY LUCKY ENOUGH TO GET INTO HOUSING?

TO HAVE A SUPPORT STRUCTURE THAT IS GOING TO THEN THEM IN THEIR JOURNEY TO RECOVERY?

TREATMENT IS A GREAT CLINICAL SPACE TO ACHIEVE SO BRIGHT AND DETOX.

WHAT WE LACK IN KENTUCKY IS THAT CONTINUUM OF SERVICES AND OF HOUSING AND SUPPORTS THAT ARE GOING TO ADDRESS ALL THE OTHER SOCIAL ISSUES AND SPIRITUAL ISSUES PEOPLE NEED.

SO I MEAN, HAVING TREATMENT BEDS IS GREAT BUT WE NEED A LONG-TERM CONTINUUM OF CARE THAT IS GOING TO LIKE SOLIDIFY PEOPLE INTO THAT.

>> AND GEORGE IS RIGHT ON THAT.

100%.

THERE'S NO AIR BETWEEN US.

THAT IS ONE OF THE WORST THINGS WE HAVE ACROSS THE BOARD EVERY STATE AND KENTUCKY WE KNOW THAT SUBSTANCE ABUSERS THEY ARE NOT SAVED THE FIRST TIME.

THEY RELAPSE.

I HAVE A CLOSE FAMILY MEMBER THAT I WORRY ABOUT ALL THE TIME BECAUSE SHE CONTINUES TO LAPSE AND TWO YEARS SHE WAS CLEAN AND LAPSED AGAIN AND THAT HURTS HER KIDS SO IT IS DEVASTATING.

WE'RE ALSO TRYING TO DO OTHER THINGS.

REPRESENTATIVE HERRON IS WORKING WITH CALLAWAY ON HOUSE BILL 124, WHICH SAYS LET'S REMOVE BARRIERS LICENSING BARRIERS POUR PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF FELONIES TO GET INTO THE WORKPLACE.

THIS IS NOT THE ONLY BILL.

WE'RE TRYING TO LEAD WITH A BIG HEART AND HELP OUR PEOPLE OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS OUR KIDS AND COUSINS AND FAMILY MEMBERS AND NEIGHBORS.

AND ALSO I CAN'T SHORT SKWIFT THIS IF MY FAMILY DOES SOMETHING A NUMBER OF TIMES AND WON'T DO RIGHT THEY NEED TO BE INCARCERATED WE ARE DOING BOTH AND NOT EITHER OR.

>> I FEEL LIKE WE'RE CREATING A SYSTEM WHERE ALL WE'RE DOING IS CREATING MORE STICKS AND PEOPLE SLEEPING, HOMELESS IN AND OUT OF SHELTER ALL THEY SEE IS STICKS.

KY STAY OUTSIDE I GET RAINED ON AND HARASSED BY PEOPLE AND I GO TO THE SHELTER I CANNOT BE WITH MY DOG AND MY STUFF.

AND I GOT WOKEN UP AT SICK AM AND GET KICKED OUT.

>> HOUSE BILL IS NOT A STICK IMPROVING IMPROVING [INAUDIBLE] THOSE ARE CARROTS AND THAT IS A HEART.

I DON'T THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY ALL WE'RE DOING AS STICKS.

AS GOVERNOR BESHEAR SAID IN THE STATE OF THE COMMONWEALTH HE SAID HE IS PROUD OF IT AND I'M PROUD OF IT ALSO WE HAVE MORE TREATMENT BEDS IN KENTUCKY PER CAPITA THAN ANY STATE IN THE COMMONWEALTH AND I'M DAMNED PROUD OF IT.

>> NOT ALL BEDS ARE ACCESSIBLE.

>> SO THIS FROM A PERSON WITH LIVED EXPERIENCE, SABBY JEFFERSON CON TU AS I AM A PERSON OF LIVED EXPERIENCE HAVING BEEN IN JAIL AND WORKING WITH OTHERS WHO HAVE.

THE PROGRAMS IN THE FACILITIES DON'T WORK.

WILL YOU BE DESIGNING REALISTIC PROGRAMS WITH PEOPLE WHO ALSO HAVE LIVED EXPERIENCES AND CAN SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCE WITH THOSE WHO ARE COMING OUT OF PRISON?

>> YES, I THINK THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION AND SOMETHING WE WANT TO DO THAT IS WHY WE WANT TO EVALUATE THE PROGRAMS FOR REENTRY SO WE CAN FUND AND INVEST WHERE THE JUICES WORK THE SQUEEZE.

BUT ALSO I THINK THERE IS PERHAPS AN OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN FROM THOSE LIVED EXPERIENCES AND MAYBE GET SOME NONPROFIT OR PRIVATE SECTOR FOLKS INVOLVED AS WELL AND EXPLORE WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK LIKE MOVING FORWARD.

>> PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSEST TO THE PROBLEM ARE CLOSEST TO THE SOLUTION.

AND I WONDER IF ANYONE IN THE ROOM WHEN HB5 WAS WRITTEN HAD SLEPT ON THE STREET OR TAKEN A DRUG.

>> Renee: DID YOU CONSULT WITH THOSE WHO LIVED ON THE STREETS?

>> WE CERTAINLY HAVE.

I'VE NEVER SLEPT ON THE STREET AND TAKEN A DRUG OTHER THAN BOURBON I'M NOT MAKING LIGHT OF THE SUBJECT.

I HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS THE CLOSEST PEOPLE IN THIS.

AND I KNOW A LOT OF US DO.

AND YES, WE DID.

WE REACHED OUT TO THEM AND ASKED WHAT THEY WANTED.

WE ALSO REACHED OUT TO VICTIMS' FAMILIES.

WE PASS ADD BILL THROUGH THE HOUSE THAT SAID THAT WE CAN'T HAVE CORPORATIONS BAILING PEOPLE OUT AND IT DIDN'T PASS THE SENATE.

IT HAD PASSED THE SENATE THERE WOULD BE A NUMBER PEOPLE INCLUDING A MAN JAKE, A 10-YEAR-OLD, WHO WOULD STILL BE LIVING TODAY.

WE HAVE TO THINK OF THEM ALSO.

WE CAN'T JUST THROW BIG NUMBERS AROUND AND TALK ABOUT WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT WHO IS HARMED.

THERE ARE REAL PEOPLE WHO ARE HARMED WHEN WE DON'T DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO KEEPING KENTUCKIANS SAFE.

MADELINE TROUT DIED.

JAKE DIED.

WE ARE TRYING AND THERE ARE PROVISIONS IN THE BILL TO ADDRESS THE HORRIFIC SITUATIONS THAT OCCURRED TO THEM.

>> Renee: WE SAW THE BRAVE FAMILIES TESTIFY LAST THURSDAY.

LAST POINT WE WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE TONIGHT A COMMENT FROM A YOU VOOER FROM GREENVILLE RESEARCH SHOWS FUNDING PUBLIC EDUCATION IS KEY TO CRIME REDUCTION WHY ARE WE NOT EXPLORING THE ONION?

>> WE ARE FUNDING EDUCATION MORE THAN WE HAVE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PENSION FUNDING.

WE'RE FAR OUTSTRIPPING INFLATION FROM THE 2008 NUMBERS THE NUMBERS OUR FRIENDS ALWAYS PICK THE 2008 BECAUSE THAT WAS THE HIGH-WATER MARK.

WE ARE OUTSTRIPPING THAT.

WE ARE FUNDING EDUCATION AND I THINK THIS BILL THAT REPRESENTATIVE PETRI OUR CHAIRMAN PUT TOGETHER IN OUR BUDGET IS GOING TO BE THE BEST FUNDED EDUCATION BUDGET IN THE HISTORY OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF KENTUCKY.

>> AND I WILL SAY THIS, TOO, I STARTED THE PROGRAM TALKING ABOUT THE KENTUCKY ECONOMY AND THE RESEARCH THAT I HAVE STUDIED DRAWS A DIRECT CORRELATION BETWEEN CRIME IN YOUR COMMUNITY AND POOR PERFORMANCE IN THE CLASSROOM.

SO, AGAIN, THERE IS A DIRECT CONNECTION BETWEEN CRIME IN THE STATE OF THE KENTUCKY AND POOR EDUCATION PERFORMANCE.

SO THIS BILL COULD ALSO HELP WITH EDUCATION PERFORMANCE AND CLASSROOMS ACROSS THE STATES.

>> I ALSO THINK IF YOU ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THAT YOU NEED TO TALK ABOUT ECONOMIC STABILITY, ACCESS TO FOOD, WHAT PEOPLE'S ENVIRONMENTS ARE, IT'S MORE.

AND IT IS ROOT CAUSES OF WHAT WE NEED TO GET INTO.

I'M GLAD THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT.

AND THIS PIECE OF POLICY, DOES NOT ADDRESS THOSE ROOT CAUSES.

AT ALL.

BUT YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT.

ACCESS TO FOOD.

HOUSING.

EDUCATION.

ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO BE DOING AS LEGISLATORS AND THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT KENTUCKIANS WANT US TO DO.

>> Renee: WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE I'M SORRY.

WE COULD GO ON AND ON MAYBE WE WILL HAVE A PART TWO BECAUSE WE DIDN'T GET TO SEVERAL OF THE PROVISIONS.

CHARITABLE BAIL AND OTHER THINGS.

WE'LL SAVE THAT FOR ANOTHER SHOW.

WE HOPE YOU'VE LEARNED AND GOT SOMETHING OUT OF IT AS WELL.

MONDAY WE PLAN ON TALKING ABOUT THE DEBATE OVER DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION DEI IN EDUCATION.

JOIN US FOR THAT MONDAY NIGHT AT 8:00 P.M. EACH WEEKNIGHT 6:30, 5:30 CENTRAL IS KENTUCKY EDITION WHEN WE FOLLOW WHAT IS HAPPENING IN YOUR STATE GOVERNMENT AND FRANKFORT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

HAVE A GREAT NIGHT I'M RENEE SHAW AND I'LL SEE YOU TOMORROW NIGHT FOR KENTUCKY EDITION.