♪ opening music ♪ ♪ Welcome to This Week in South Carolina.

I'm Gavin Jackson.

This week we talk with retiring SCDOT Secretary Christy Hall about her tenure, her agency's accomplishments, as well as the challenges that remain.

Secretary Hall, welcome back.

Sec.

Hall> Thank you so much, Gavin, for the invitation.

Gavin>So like I said, I want to talk about the latest projects going on in the roadways across the state.

But first, let's look at your time at SCDOT.

It's been quite the road you got to SCDOT as a fresh engineer out of Clemson University in the 90s.

You worked your way up to lead the agency in 2015 during a very difficult time.

I want to talk to you about that time because there was a need for more money to come to the agency because the roads were so neglected.

But there was also a lot of issues with leadership.

There were several secretaries that preceded you that really didn't get the job done.

So tell us about what it was like when you first got to the agency to lead the agency.

Sec.

Hall> Well, yeah.

So...

So I was recruited to DOT straight out of college and I took advantage of every opportunity that, you know, I had to really train in every aspect of the agency, whether it was maintenance, construction, ... finance, procurement, administration, project management, really kind of the gamut of pretty much everything we do.

And then really sort of what really made a difference for me career wise was when the agency went broke back in 2011, you may recall, the time when the contractors weren't getting paid.

Unbeknownst to many people in the public, power and water was being shut off at some of our facilities across the state and we really had a cash problem at that time.

We had a little less than $3 in the bank and more than $90 million in unpaid bills.

And I was asked to come back to Columbia to try to help resolve that situation, which, you know, I agreed to do as an engineer coming back, trying to run our finances, but took that challenge on.

And really, I think that really sort of set us set myself on, of course, to eventually become secretary.

Gavin> And when you got to be become the secretary, you also came in under difficult circumstances.

Like I was saying, you had some leaders that were there, in and out very quickly.

You got there in 2015, right after the 2014 ice storm, too.

So a lot going on in 2015 was the thousand year flood.

A lot of different things happening.

But what, what was it like when you got there in terms of what you were trying to accomplish at that point, in terms of getting more funding to the agency, which you know it needed?

How did you, how did you navigate that, dealing with the legislature and at the same time pushing for the 12 cent gas tax increase?

Sec.

Hall> Yeah, I mean, kind of dating back to 2011 when we had our cash issue, it was there was really no strategic vision for the agency.

And we really, honestly, we were doing whatever we did the year before and maybe just a little bit more with no clear understanding as to why we were spending a certain amount of money for paving versus bridges versus interstate projects or even safety.

It was really no, no good plan in place.

And, you know, we had several leaders come in and out of the agency, as you said, we had three secretaries in less than two years come in.

And, you know, when you have turnover at the top, it does affect the organization.

It, you know, a big organization like DOT tends to really want to run itself.

It's like a big machine.

A lot of good, talented people, but process driven and really was on cruise control.

And then when I took the helm, it was one of the very first questions I asked a secretary is how much are we spending on paving across the state in our annual program?

And I went to three different people and I received three very different answers, which I knew immediately we had an issue because there was no alignment to what we were trying to do and what the return on investment was.

So I immediately began to set upon a path to...figure out what we were doing, what the return on that investment would be and really carve apart our financial ask that we had been making to the legislature year over year of the funding gap, really understand what was in those numbers, and really carve that up and come up with what we felt like was realistic and achievable.

Gavin> Yeah, because there's no way you could have gone to those guys because they, no one wanted to give you more money in the first place.

They said that you had plenty of money, but you knew very well that you did.

But if you didn't even know where the money was going and how it was being spent, you couldn't even defend the ask in the first place, let alone say where we need it more, whether that's paving bridges or widening.

So how did you do that?

Like you clearly, must of had a big sit down, get everyone together and just kind of see where everything was and and then go from there.

How'd you, how did you do that?

Sec.

Hall> Yeah.

I mean, that's basically it.

You get the team in a room and you ask the questions of, you know, how much resources are available?

Where are we applying those resources?

What's the return on that investment that we're getting today?

In other words, are payment conditions are getting better or worse?

Are bridges getting better or worse?

What's our safety record looking like?

What are the things that have made a difference in the state?

And once you get that base conversation and set it to the side, then you look at, all right, well, where do we want to take it?

What's the vision for infrastructure?

And that really was what formulated the basis of the ten year plan that we're on now, whereas we said, all right, how much money would it take to improve payments by a certain percentage across the state?

Same thing with bridges, same thing with interstates, same thing with safety.

I mean, once we calculated what those numbers were, that was the basis of what my request was to the legislature to fund.

Gavin> Because that 12 cent gas tax increase translates into about but $700, $800 billion $800 million a year?

Sec.

Hall> Yes, sir.

About 800 million.

Gavin> And so, at this point, though, would you call that when you look at that, that fight that you helped lead, that you helped win, that obviously was a big morale boost for the agency too, to see that you were willing to fight, willing to put your reputation on the line, get the agency where it needed to be, get that money in there to fix things, because you guys were always the butt of the joke in terms of, terms of people saying, the roads are always horrible.

They're always horrible.

Even when we have more money coming in, people are still complain about the roads because it has taken a long time to get them back to where they need to be.

So do you...would you say that getting that extra money to the agency was your biggest accomplishment in your career?

Sec.

Hall> It certainly was one of the biggest ones for sure.

You know, my entire career up to that point had been the agency talking about how broke it was and how we needed all these additional resources.

Well, before I came back to headquarters in 2011, you know, the mantra was we need, we needed more funding to, to do more roadwork.

And while there's certainly no argument that the need was always there, I would agree with the folks that have said that we weren't ready for an increase prior to formulating this, this plan, because honestly, as I said, when I asked the question of how much paving are we doing across the state, and I got three very different answers.

I think that's indicative of an organization that really at that time had no strategic plan, no vision, and really couldn't articulate what the return on those taxpayer dollars was going to be.

So- Gavin>-Yeah, Sec.

Hall> I think really adopting and embracing that performance management approach, which is really what it is...is probably the biggest legacy that I will leave with the agency.

Gavin> And paving, I mean, when you talk about things so simple that people know and pay attention to so much, was that a reason maybe why you started there, because people just identify roads.

That's the most immediate need, essentially?

Sec.

Hall> Well, it's certainly the largest need from a financial aspect and from the network standpoint.

I mean, its bridges are obviously important, too, but everybody rides on roads every day.

And so when you think about the condition of the infrastructure, the pavement condition always is one of the first things that you think of.

Gavin> And things have improved?

Sec.

Hall> Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And I think it's evident when you drive the state.

I mean, we certainly have a lot more work to do.

It's, it's not finished and done by any stretch of the imagination.

But I think most people, when you drive certainly the interstates and a major highways, you can see a lot better pavement across the state.

Gavin> It also seems like you thrive in crises, too.

Obviously, that was a big, big crisis in itself.

But when we talk about natural disasters and emergency response, we had a spate there, you know, 2015 where we had the thousand year flood.

2016, we had Hurricane Matthew, Irma in 2017 and then 2018 was Hurricane Florence, which was a big one.

Tell us about Hurricane Florence and what happened.

What were some of the big issues that your agency faced and how you had to tackle those?

Sec.

Hall> Yeah, I guess, you know, I haven't always been, you know, the, the best and greatest at emergency disasters.

I think I sort of adapted to that role over time and I think probably one of the biggest lessons that I had very early on as acting secretary actually was, we had a...it was just prior ... right as the thousand year flood was starting to unfold.

And of course, you know, something like that, we, none of us had predicted the type of impacts that, that was going to have.

But as it started to unfold and we realized that it was a major event here for the Midlands and beyond, you know, I guess my management approach evolved and Governor Haley was certainly instrumental in that because she one of the things that she mentioned early on in some of our briefing sessions that we have with the governor during a disaster was, don't just think about today and what you're working on today, but think about where you need to be three days from now and make sure that you're planning ahead and pre-positioning things to be able to deal with the needs three days from now.

And so I think that was an important lesson and something that I've continued throughout, you know, my remaining time as secretary was to try to look around that corner and anticipate things to the maximum extent you can.

Gavin> But Hurricane Florence, I mean, we had, you know, the... the Grand Strand was about to get cut off and you had some emergency decisions to be made, some technology that hadn't really ever been deployed.

You know, those aqua dams that were going up.

Can you, do you have any memories from those times?

I think you were actually in the field for a good bit of that, too.

Sec.

Hall> Yes.

I mean, it was very...fluid not to over use that kind of term with a hurricane or a flood.

But yeah, I mean, we had analytics that were telling us that we should expect that ...a good portion of Horry County was going to be completely cut off from the rest of the state.

And so we were facing a potential situation of, you know, several hundred thousand citizens isolated away from the rest of the state.

And so there were all, all kinds of discussions as to how are we going to maintain a lifeline to that community, whether we were going to institute a, you know, an air operation with cargo jets and helicopters or pontoon bridges.

I mean, you could you could just imagine all the planning that can go into something like that.

But we eventually settled on the best approach was to identify one route, one land route, and throw everything that we can have it...at it to try to keep it open.

And, so that when we determined that that's what we were going to do, then it became how do we actually do that given the amount of flooding that we were anticipating.

So we reached out to a lot of different people, a lot of our partners at EMD and came back with the with the HESCO sand field barriers with a... a liner on top of them as well as, the aqua dams that you referenced, something that neither one of those, we'd ever used in the state but had heard of some other areas that had used them with success.

So we threw everything at it, mobilized the National Guard to help us with it.

We also secured those Aqua dams, actually, out of Texas and California, we had a trucking company that we engaged and had them literally drive all day and all night with rotating drivers to get the material here to get it in place.

Gavin> Wow!

And so I'm assuming that it has now since maybe been built into our emergency response plan, knowing that is something that would work in the future should this ever happen again?

Sec.

Hall> Yes, absolutely.

I think this...this notion of making sure that you're protecting a lifeline when things are predicted to be really bad is an important lesson for DOT.

Gavin> Yeah, because that was a wild storm.

It just sat over the Carolinas.

All that water coming down really flooding everything.

I don't think it ever really got cut off, but we were getting close to water, I guess getting over some of the tops of those bridges.

Sec.

Hall> Yes.

We had several inches of water that actually went over 501, that was impacted by the HESCO barriers.

And certainly the Aqua Dams did the job that we asked them to do, but I think luckily for everybody, it ended up being not quite as bad as had been predicted, but it certainly could have been.

And so we were prepared to respond to that.

Gavin> Has that become...?

I just asked you a little bit about that, but has that become more of a focus maybe for DOT in terms of knowing and identifying threats for the future and making sure that we are prepared so we're not maybe doing this on the fly?

Sec.

Hall> Yes, we have a lot of discussions about lifelines and what needs to be protected and what should be the priorities and making sure that we work those priorities during an event.

Gavin> Because you also have overseen the lane reversals which were always just such a third rail and no one ever wanted to deal with the lane reversals because of past issues.

But you've had to oversee those too, I mean, what was the difference between making sure that those actually went off smoothly versus the chaos of the past?

Sec.

Hall> Well, we had actually practiced those for years, many, many, many years, and never actually put it into play until I became secretary.

And then the time came- Gavin>-Your problem now.

Sec.

Hall> Yeah, then and then, then it was time to do it.

And...once the decision was made that we needed to, to actually reverse I-26, you know, we immediately went about putting that into place and you know, it did operate smoothly from the public outside view.

On the insider view, of course, you know, there's always issues.

There always is.

But, you know, we made sure that we resolved any issues at the lowest level possible so that, you know, we were quickly able to respond to any concerns or issues and gave that flexibility to our frontline folks, partnered with law enforcement to, you know, if a certain ramp needed to be closed versus open, then they had that authority to do so to make sure that it worked and were safe.

And so we were able to put it in place.

It worked very well.

And, you know, we're glad to have that as a tool in the toolbox.

I don't like to use it, if, and prefer not to, if we can avoid doing so, because it is very disruptive and very manpower intensive for an extended period of time.

Gavin> Secretary, I want to kind of go back to what we were talking about with the gas tax and your legacy there and how you worked with lawmakers to get that done.

We were talking about, it wasn't a matter of promising projects per se, or it was rather a matter of talking about what needed to be done, what needed to be prioritized.

Can you talk to us about how you went about doing that in terms of making this ten year plan, in terms of the urban versus rural divide that we continue to see play out a lot of ways?

When it comes to where all the infrastructure money goes towards, has the system become more equitable in how you choose projects, in your opinion?

Sec.

Hall> Yes, absolutely.

I believe it has.

So I think the blessing is, is that I was with DOT back in 2006, which was a time when probably one of the biggest reform efforts was put into play at DOT, and it really transformed the way that we select projects.

And it took the politics out of picking projects and required the agency to move to objective criteria for selecting projects.

So, when you look at that, that history kind of rolling in to the question of, all right, well, if we provide additional funding, how are you going to do it?

One of the core principles that I had during that whole discussion was I'm never going to promise anybody, a single, a singular project.

I just felt like that was, you know, the complete opposite of how the legislature intended for the agency to work, literally take politics out of picking projects, and it really focused more on how are we going to improve the network and how are we going to ensure that you know, that everybody is treated fairly.

So when you look at the state, you know, interstates is really sort of its own animal, across the state.

Not every county has an interstate, but certainly there are some differences between the urban areas that have repeated daily congestion and the rural segments that maybe don't have as much daily congestion but still have issues with when moving commerce up and up and around the network.

So we've been very careful to make sure that when we identify, for example, on our interstate program, that we look at both urban interstates for improvements, such as M alfunction Junction, the gateway in 85, 385 in Greenville, and the widening of the rural segment such as I-26 here in the Midlands area and I-95, that's we had to get under contract within the next 12 months.

So that's, that's been very deliberative on our part on the interstates.

Bridges, really kind of statewide.

It just depends on the condition of the bridges, and I believe that's how that should be evaluated.

But then on pavements, we at one time did consider those on a statewide basis, but we quickly realized that there were about a handful of counties, maybe half a dozen counties that just wouldn't have been eligible to receive any paving dollars using a statewide formula.

So we migrated to a formula that ensured that every single county in this state received paving funds out of the DOT budget.

Gavin> So, Secretary, when you talk about bridges specifically, I know there's been a big push from the governor to give you all about an extra what, $500 million or so to improve bridges just because of the state of conditions that they're facing.

Tell us about the need for this money.

I know ,I think the House has put about $200 million in their budget, which is going through the State House this week.

Excuse me, the Senate still has to work on the budget, but what's the need there for the bridges?

What's the concern?

What's happening there?

Sec.

Hall> So we spend roughly about $200 million a year on bridges and while we have seen a pretty good return on investments so far, we've replaced roughly about 330 bridges so far in the ten year plan.

It's, it kind of goes back to that lesson that I talked about earlier, looking around the corner and anticipating what's ahead.

And so when I look ahead on our bridge inventory, I can see that we have a significant number of bridges that are aging out, that are about to exceed their life expectancy, and will need either replacement or significant repairs.

So really, this investment that we're asking for is designed to address an emerging issue that we're having here in the state, but really kind of intercept the major problem before it becomes a major problem.

Gavin> Because one bridge just depends.

I mean, there are some bridges that are maybe prioritized over others at this point because they are so critical in the movement of freight and people.

And these aren't necessarily bridges that are not being addressed, I think in a sense, that's what I'm saying.

Sec.

Hall> Well, it kind of gets to your question earlier about urban versus rural.

So we recognize that our interstate bridges are critical and we need to pay attention to those.

That interstate was built really late 50s, early 60s in the state.

And so we're getting close to a lot of those bridges needing to be replaced or major repairs done to those.

You know, you look back at Christmas, we had the emergency closure on I-20 because we had a bridge issue.

You think back a few years prior to that, we had a issue with the Wando Bridge out on 526.

And, you know, like I said earlier, you know, we're always thinking of the what ifs and the lifelines in the state.

So what if we had an issue with the Lake Marion Bridge then what's the detour?

A hundred mile detour is significant, and we want to avoid that before it becomes a problem.

Gavin> Is the Lake Marion Bridge okay right now?

(laughs) Sec.

Hall> Yeah, it's fine.

Gavin> That's like a nightmare scenario, though, That's what you're talking about.

Sec.

Hall> Exactly.

You know, we have to plan ahead.

But it's not just the interstate bridges.

You think about our bridges in the communities in rural areas.

We have 62 closed bridges right now in our rural communities.

And every single one of those bridges, whether it carries 10,000 vehicles or 250 vehicles, is important to that community, and we need to address those.

Gavin> So, Secretary, we have less than 5 minutes, but are we keeping up with what we need to do here in the state?

I know we obviously we had decades of under-funding and the need to do more, but how are we doing right now?

Are we are we matching that pace?

We're still behind the curve, especially when you look at how we're the fastest growing state in the country.

We have all this commerce going through our state, the ports and economic development.

Are we keeping up?

Sec.

Hall> Well, I think we're doing the best we can right now.

You know, our emphasis has been on getting the system and the network to a state of good repair.

And we're well on the way of accomplishing that.

As I said earlier, not there yet.

But the you know, the path is laid and it's working towards that.

We are the fastest growing state in the nation and a lot of residential booming happened happening all across the state in areas where we've never seen it before.

And so I think that's an area that the agency and the legislature and leadership will still need to look towards to identify solutions to address those issues.

Gavin> Yeah, because we look at, you know, this joke where we talk about expansion, like just want more lane is going to fix it.

If we just make one more lane, things will be fixed.

But that's not necessarily the case.

I know you're doing that, but on 26 from Charleston to the Midlands, and that is very important too, but can you address (that).

We can only expand so much.

I mean, at what point do we need to maybe pivot or get smarter or look for different transit alternatives?

Sec.

Hall> Yeah, 100%.

Gavin.

And I think in our urban areas, we're definitely going to have to look at things that can increase the flow of traffic through an area, whether it's signal timing, intelligent traffic solutions, intersection improvements, things to deal with pinch points versus major widening projects.

A widening project has its place in a rural area like on I-26, it's desperately needed, but I wouldn't want to do a major widening project in through the you know, the Greenville say the downtown Greenville area because that would be a very disruptive project, very expensive.

And then you would wonder, you know, are you really getting that good return on that investment?

So I think those kind of solutions have to be in the toolbox.

Gavin> And then, of course, the major projects like Malfunction Junction and Carolina Crossroads, which is what three years into that project, that $1.7 billion project, the biggest in the state.

How is that progressing?

What's next for that and is it on track?

Sec.

Hall> Yeah, so it's doing really well.

So phases one and two are well under construction now and progressing very well.

If you happen to drive the area, you can see it on a daily basis, something changing on the ground every single day out on that particular project.

So, we recently have re-sequenced that work plan for that area and our next phase is a project will be to widen 20 and some other areas leading into the major interchange.

And while we do that widening, we're going to do the right of way and the utility relocation necessary at the main interchange so that when that project goes to contract, the contractor can really progress that work quickly.

So, we're excited about it.

It's certainly our biggest project to date on the interstate system here in Columbia area.

Gavin> So when that's done, when 26 is widened we're going to be 95 also starting to get widened at the entry points too, is that right?

Sec.

Hall> That's right.

So we're planning to widen at least first 33 miles.

And looking at again, looking around the corner at the remainder of 95, all the way up.

Gavin> Mmm hmm But also road safety has been your biggest priority as well in terms of helping lower the fatalities, the collisions on these secondary roads, too.

What's the status of that?

Have we've been seeing fewer fatalities or maybe fewer collisions?

What's new with that?

Sec.

Hall> Yeah, So where I'm excited to report to you that we've seen about a 24% reduction in fatalities in our rural, rural areas.

We believe that our rural road safety program is affecting those numbers somewhat.

Of course, driver behavior is part of the solution, as well.

So we're excited about the improvements that we've made so far and we're looking forward to continuing that plan going forward.

So I know you don't want to speak for your your successor here, your chief operating officer, Justin Powell, who'll be succeeding you, pending the Senate approval there.

But what do you see as the biggest priority now?

You've done as much as you can.

What do you see maybe happening in the future that he will now inherit, that he will take the ball on and run with, the biggest priority you see going forward for SCDOT?

Sec.

Hall> Well, I think you've already mentioned them, right.

So it's bridges and what are we doing to deal with the growth of this state?

I think those are the two remaining large issues that still need to be resolved.

Gavin> And then what about what's next for you, Secretary.

What are you going to be doing now in retirement?

>> Well, I'm going to take some time off and of course continue to watch you on ETV, Gavin.

(Gavin laughs) Sec.

Hall> But you know, really take a little time for myself and then I'm sure I'll climb back in the saddle doing something.

Gavin> You're going to miss the day to day.

You going to miss doing all this work for the state of South Carolina?

Sec.

Hall> I'm sure I will, somewhat.

Gavin> Well, that's retiring.

SCDOT Secretary Christy Hall, thank you so much.

Sec.

Hall> Thank you, Gavin Gavin> Appreciate it.

You can stay up to date with the latest news throughout the week by checking out the South Carolina Lede.

It's a podcast that airs on Tuesdays and Saturdays that you can find on SouthCarolinapublicradio.org or wherever you find podcasts.

For South Carolina ETV, I'm Gavin Jackson.

Be well, South Carolina.

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