♪ [♪♪] Good evening.

Welcome to Kentucky Tonight.

I'm Renee Shaw.

Thanks for joining us.

Our topic tonight: school choice.

It could be the most talked-about item on the ballot this November: amendment two, the so-called school choice amendment.

(FULL SCREEN) IF PASSED, THE AMENDMENT WOULD ADD LANGUAGE TO THE KENTUCKY CONSTITUTION STATING, IN PART•.

QUOTE•.

“THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY MAY PROVIDE FINANCIAL SUPPORT FOR THE EDUCATION OF STUDENTS OUTSIDE THE SYSTEM OF COMMON SCHOOLS.” UNQUOTE.

THE PHRASE “COMMON SCHOOLS” REFERS TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

SUPPORTERS SAY THE AMENDMENT, IF PASSED, WOULD MEAN MORE EDUCATION OPTIONS FOR PARENTS.

CRITICS SAY IT WOULD DRAIN MONEY FROM ALREADY-UNDERFUNDED PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

INSTEAD OF A BATTLE BETWEEN LEFT AND RIGHT, SOME SAY THIS IS SHAPING UP AS A BATTLE BETWEEN URBAN AND RURAL KENTUCKY.

TO DISCUSS IT ALL, WE ARE JOINED, IN OUR LEXINGTON STUDIO, BY: JOEL WOLFORD, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE KENTUCKY EDUCATION ASSOCIATION; JIM WATERS, PRESIDENT OF BLUEGRASS INSTITUTE FOR PUBLIC POLICY SOLUTIONS; CHAD MEREDITH, ATTORNEY AND FORMER KENTUCKY SOLICITOR GENERAL; AND JASON BAILEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE KENTUCKY CENTER FOR ECONOMIC POLICY.

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WELCOME TO OUR GUESTS.

>> I WANT TO BEGIN WITH YOU Mr. MEREDITH TO TALK ABOUT THE LANGUAGE OF THE AMENDMENT.

THIS HAS BEEN A LONG CONTESTED BATTLE IN THE STATE HOUSE THIS PAST SESSION.

OVER THIS BALLOT QUESTION.

TELL US WHAT IT WILL EMPOWER THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO DO IF THE VOTERS DO RATIFY IT.

>> SURE, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME TODAY.

JOEL, JIM, JASON THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

THIS IS JUST OF SUCH 'IMPORTANT SHOW, THE J'S AND THE C'S.

THIS IS A WONDERFUL SHOW IT'S VERY IMPORTANT FOR PUBLIC DISCOURSE IN KENTUCKY AND I'M GLAD WE CAN BE HERE TO DISCUSS SUCH AN IMPORTANT TOPIC.

WHAT DOES THE AMENDMENT DO?

IT DOES ONE SIMPLE AND IMPORTANT THINGS.

AND THAT IS IT GIVES THE PEOPLE OF KENTUCKY THROUGH THEIR ELECTED LEGISLATORS THE RIGHT TO SET EDUCATION POLICY FOR THEM AS OPPOSED HAVING IT DETERMINED BY PEOPLE IN THE 1800'S.

WHAT I MEAN IS THIS...

THE EDUCATION PROVISIONS IN OUR CONSTITUTION WERE WRITTEN IN 1891.

AND THEY ADDRESSED PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCES THAT EXISTED AT THAT TIME.

AND THOSE THE CHOICES THEY MADE THEN MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN RIGHT FOR THEM AT THAT POINT BUT THEY STILL BIND US TODAY.

AND THOSE CHOICES IN LARGE MEASURE PUT HANDCUFFS ON OUR LEGISLATURE AND THEY CONSTRICT THE POLICY DECISIONS THEY CAN MAKE PERTAINING TO EDUCATION.

I DON'T THINK THOSE RESTRICTIONS MAKE SENSE TODAY.

I TRUST OUR LEGISLATORS I'VE WORKED WITH A LOT OF THEM AND KENTUCKY'S LEGISLATORS ARE GOOD PEOPLE AND WORK HARD AND CARE DEEP WHETHER I ABOUT THE COMMONWEALTH.

IT MAKES SENSE TO TAKE THE RESTRICTIONS OFF.

LET THE PEOPLE OF KENTUCKY MAKE DECISIONS TODAY SELECT THE EDUCATION POLICY THEY WANT AS OPPOSED OF HAVING IT DETERMINED FOR THEM BY THE RESTRICTIONS PUT ON IN THE 1890s.

>> Renee: AND THE QUESTION DOESN'T LAYOUT THE OPTIONS OR ANY PARTICULAR PATH, RIGHT?

>> THIS DOESN'T SET POLICY IT TAKES THE HANDCUFFS OFF AND SAYS THE LEGISLATURE GETS TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS.

IF THIS AMENDMENT PASSES ON DAY ONE, NOTHING CHANGES.

ALL THAT IT MEANS IS THAT THE LEGISLATORS, THINGS CHANGE IN THE SENSE THE LEGISLATORS GET TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT IS UP FOR THE LEGISLATORS TO DECIDE.

>> Renee: 183, 184, 186 THAT ADDRESS THE COMMON SCHOOLS WOULD HELP IF YOU DEFINE THAT, IS THAT ONLY APPLICABLE TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

>> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION, RENEE.

COMMON SCHOOLS IS A TERM USED IN THE CONSTITUTION.

AND THE MEANING OF THAT IS OFTEN HOTLY DEBATED.

I THINK THAT SOME OF THE JURISPRUDENCE AS STRAYED FROM THE ORIGINAL UNDERSTANDING OF 183, 184 AND 186.

I THINK FOR INSTANCE THE CASE IN FRONT OF THE KENTUCKY SUPREME COURT, I THINK FOR INSTANCE, THE CHARTER SCHOOLS CAN WIN THAT CASE NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE AMENDMENT.

THERE'S ENOUGH ROOM IN THE CONSTITUTION TO ALLOW THAT.

SO BUT, WHAT THIS AMENDMENT DOES IT SAYS NO MATTER WHAT THE SECTIONS SAY OR MIGHT RESTRICT, WE'RE NOW GOING TO ALLOW THE LEGISLATORS TO SPEND PUBLIC MONEY ON WHATEVER SCHOOLS, COMMON SCHOOLS, PUBLIC KHAFRTER SCHOOLS WHATEVER EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS THEY WANT AND IT BRINGS US INTO LINE WITH OTHER STATES WITH WIDE RANGING EDUCATIONAL FREEDOM OPPORTUNITIES.

>> Renee: AND JIM YOU HAVE BEEN ON THE PROGRAM BEFORE Mr.

WATERS, WE'VE TALKED A LOT ABOUT THIS ISSUE AND YOU'VE BEEN ON MANY OF THE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THIS.

IT DOESN'T AS THE AMENDMENT IS PRESENTED DOESN'T CREATE A POLICY.

BUT THERE ARE OPTIONS THAT ARE OUT THERE THAT CERTAINLY PROVIDE A TEMPLATE FOR STATE LAWMAKERS WHEN THEY RETURN IN JANUARY.

CAN YOU DEFINE MORE WHAT THOSE OPTIONS CAN LOOK LIKE?

>> THAT IS A GREAT POINT.

THESE ARE IN THE OTHER STATES AND WHAT WE CAN DO IS DO AN OUTSTANDING JOB WITH THE POLICY THE CREATION OF SCHOOL CHOICE POLICY BY LOOKING AT WHETHER WHAT IS WORKED AND WHAT HASN'T WORKED IN OTHER STATES.

THAT IS A GOOD POINT.

AND THERE'S ALL KINDS OF OPTIONS.

WE'RE SEEING PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS LIKE CHAD MENTIONED, EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTEDS LIKE WE HAVE PASSED HERE.

DURING COVID, RENEE, PARENTS GOT MORE CREATIVE AND CREATED THEIR OWN SCHOOLS MICRO SCHOOLS.

AND KIND OF RETURNED TO THE ONE-HOUSE ONE ROOM SCHOOLHOUSE IN THE MODERN TIME.

BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO GET THEIR KIDS EDUCATED AND THAT WAS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE SYSTEM OR NECESSARILY THE VEHICLE BY WHICH THAT WAS ATTAINED.

SO, YEAH, YOU ARE RIGHT.

THIS WILL ALLOW A FULL DEBATE TO TAKE PLACE WITH LEGISLATORS KNOWING THAT WHATEVER THEY PASS IT'S NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO STOP THE COURT BECAUSE OF CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES.

IT IS LIKE A BUSH HOG I WROTE THIS LIKE A BUSH HOG CLEARING THE WAY FOR THAT DEBATE TO TAKE PLACE.

I THINK THOSE WHO OPPOSE THIS, ARE REALLY SAYING THAT THEY OPPOSE HAVING ANY DISCUSSION AT ALL ABOUT ANY CHANGE IN OUR EDUCATION THE WAY WE DELIVER EDUCATION.

AND THAT OUGHT TO BE THE FOCUS.

ARE WE DELIVERING EDUCATION IN A WAY THAT BENEFITS STUDENTS AND NOT JUST KEEPING A SYSTEM IN PLACE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE'VE HAD SINCE 1890s.

>> Renee: JASON BAILEY WITH THE CASE APP, KENTUCKY CENTER FOR ECONOMIC POLICY.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

YOU'VE WRITTEN A RECENT OP-ED AT THE END OF MAY AND THERE'S NO GUESSING GAME WHAT STATE LAWMAKERS WILL DO IF THIS AMENDMENT PASSES STATES LIKE FLORIDA AND ARIZONA THAT STARTED WITH SMALL AND TARGETED PRIVATE SCHOOL VOUCHER PROGRAMS ARE GROWING THEM INTO EXPENSIVE GIVEAWAYS THAT ARE BUSTING STATE BUDGETS, GIVE US MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> THIS AMENDMENT IF IT WERE TO PASS WOULD OPEN THE DOOR TO PRIVATE SCHOOL VOUCHERS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN KENTUCKY.

AND JIM CALLED THE CONSTITUTION BUSH HOG, WE AGREE, I THINK THIS WOULD SHRED THE 133-YEAR-OLD CONSTITUTIONAL COMMITMENT TO PUBLIC EDUCATION AS A RIGHT TO ALL KENTUCKIANS AND THE STATE'S RESPONSIBILITY AND THE LEGISLATURE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO FUND THAT.

AND IT WOULD JUST SAY TRUST US TO THE POLITICIANS AS TO WHAT THEY WILL DO.

AND WE KNOW BASED ON A LAW THAT IS ON THE BOOKS THE ONE THAT WAS TOSSED OUT BY THE SUPREME COURT AND THE REASON THIS IS ON THE BALLOT WHAT THEY WILL DO.

AND THAT'S TO PROVIDE PRIVATE SCHOOL VOUCHERS TO TAKE PUBLIC DOLLARS THAT GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAT ARE AVAILABLE AND OPEN TO ALL CHILDREN, AND REDIRECT THEM TO PRIVATE SCHOOL VOUCHERS AND THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OTHER STATES.

THEY START WITH SMALL PERHAPS AND THEY GROW LARGE AND BECOME UNIVERSAL AND THEY ARE BUSTING STATE BUDGETS.

FLORIDA IS SPENDING $4 BILLION ON PRIVATE SCHOOL VOUCHERS.

1.1 BILLION IN OHIO.

1.1 BILLION IN ARIZONA.

AND MOST OF THAT MONEY GOES TO KIDS IN FAMILIES ALREADY IN PRIVATE SCHOOL ABOUT 70% ON AVERAGE.

SO WE ARE TAKING DOLLARS AWAY FROM THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT SERVES EVERYBODY AND GIVING IT TO THOSE WHO ALREADY ARE BETTER OFF ON AVERAGE.

WE CAN'T AFFORD THAT ESPECIALLY IF YOU LOOK IN RURAL KENTUCKY WHERE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM IS HEAVILY FUNDED BY THE STATE BECAUSE THERE'S LOW PROPERTY WEALTH IF YOU SEND IT TO THE PLACES WITH PRIVATE SCHOOLS WHICH IS HALF OF THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE IN THREE COUNTIES IN KENTUCKY IT WILL BE DEVASTATING TO RURAL AREAS THAT HAVE ALREADY LOST SO MUCH THEY ARE FACING A TEACHER SHORTAGE, A BUS DRIVER SHORTAGE AND PROBLEMS WITH FUNDING THEIR SYSTEMS FROM THE TYPES OF BUDGET CUTS WE'VE SEEN.

>> Renee: LET'S DO A GLOSSARY OF TERMS.

WE THROW AROUND TERMS.

SCHOOL VOUCHERS VERSUS EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS WHICH THE KENTUCKY SUPREME COURT STRUCK DOWN schools anymore.

Another thing this if it passes, this could be the last referendum you see because it not not withstanding the section.

We have to take these things.

The people.

So it's less Democratic we know what vouchers have done in other states.

We know what they've done to their their budgets.

Kentucky's public schools are doing their jobs there, the hubs of their communities there are a vital part of our rule, communities and are people know that.

>> Mister Mayor.

If I do want to go to that point, the missed just made about how there is a ballot question for statewide.

But there is not another procedure, a process by which local communities could then buy ratify their participation in 2 a school voucher program as an example.

>> Sure.

Well, let me before I address that address something The Joel said they want to take a little issue with.

He said this.

If this amendment passes, there will not be an obligation of the Constitution to fund public schools.

That's just not sure when it says that not withstand section one, 83, it doesn't mean that it's wiping one 83 off the books.

What it's saying is that that the legislature who wants can use public funds on outside the common school system.

That's that's it's taking away any restriction that section one 83 might put on funding not come to school.

So what it's saying is to the extent the section one, 83 would prohibit funding schools outside the common schools that restrictions taken away.

It's not saying we're taking away the obligation to fund public schools.

That obligation will remain one.

83 will stay on the books.

So there still will be a constitutional obligation to fund public school does not to the current level well know that they're there with there will be there absolutely will be and obligation under the Constitution to fund to fund common schools.

Now, what's interesting is nearly all of the funding for common schools today comes from the general Fund.

The Constitution says that the school fund has to be obligated for comma schools.

But the reality is the school fund is is.

Extraordinarily small compared to the general fund.

Almost all of the money for schools comes from the general fund.

The Constitution does not obligate that money to go to schools.

And yet the General Assembly gives it to schools anyway.

So I think you're going to see the same thing.

If this passes.

All this does is it takes restrictions off.

We can trust our legislators.

They're good people.

They live in our communities.

They want the best for our communities.

They want the best for public schools.

This is not the death sentence for public schools in Kentucky.

All this does is it takes the shackles off of public policy for the Legislature.

Just unveiling the rose decision that said that our school funding was unconstitutional in 1989.

>> Specifically looked at both the adequacy and the equitable, equitable equity of of school funding and found it to be.

>> To not meet the constitutional standard.

What this change says is that notwithstanding the requirement that we do that we can provide money outside of that system.

So the constitutional obligation could be met by just shifting dollars away from that comment school system to the to the non to the to the private schools.

And that is the purpose of this.

I mean, this is about taking dollars.

They have been dedicated for many years to that system.

Dollars that have been cut already from budget cuts over the last 15 years and diverting them to private schools.

That's when it opens the door to him.

Mister Meredith has said twice now I trust the Legislature.

So that is what this is telling us.

Trust us trust the legislature to as to what they're going to do and how they want to fund and what they want to fund and it's a blank check.

It opens the door wide open to fund anything.

And we know from other states what that means.

It's unaccountable private school vouchers, private schools that that aren't aren't subject to that anti-discrimination laws that don't have to meet the same accountability requirements that don't accept all kids and you go on and on.

And in many cases in many states, what we're seeing is schools that pop up and then close a couple years later creates a lot of turn and that sort of thing that that this opens the door to him that we're seeing in other states and given we only have so many resources in the budget.

Diverting more dollars away from the system that it is open to all kids is a very dangerous path that that denies a students that need something different than what the public education system gives.

>> My question would Mister Bailey admitted that these programs are growing in other states and I wonder if he stopped to consider why that Why is it that parents are wanting options?

Why is that?

The families are choosing some of these options that are available and his claim most of these scholarships are going to families that don't need them or can't use them is just not true.

For example, in charter schools around the country, a majority of charter school students are low-income minority students in our nation.

And that's we're talking about 3.7 million kids going charter schools, almost a million children in America in schools of choice through a scholarship that they normally would have been able to get before.

So we've heard Mister Bailey talk about the system, the system, we've got to fund the system.

But this really ought to be about what's best for our students, whether they need.

And then I think we should do everything we can to make sure our students are going to have a successful future.

And right now we have some problems with that considering just about one in 3 of our kids are reading professionally in that number drops with low-income minority into the teens.

So he's right about Kara.

Kara, a promise that every child can learn at the highest level and it promised that those dollars would be used to close the gaps.

But we've seen the fixing of the funding.

And I think that's proper.

I mean, I was out in Jackson County last week, beautiful place and, you know, they get a lot more of their funding from the state, then saying that Creek school district are some of the wealthier districts, too.

But the fact is the fact is that we're not seeing the progress with academic performance.

We've more than tripled are fending and many of our school districts.

And and Jackson County, only 8% of their 8th graders can breed can after officially in only a in the teens can do can re professionally.

So so at what point does this become about what those dollars are for and what they're producing, whether the end results of those and why are so many parents and other states warning to use these and why are those numbers growing?

So we also talked to some educators.

There's a group called protect our schools, Kentucky.

That opposes amendment number 2.

>> It's holding events around Kentuckyian in an event and Warren County last week included the superintendent and a teacher.

Here's what they had to say.

>> Here locally in the state of Kentucky.

We are in opposition of amendment 2 because we understand how critical the quality of our public schools are for the fabric of all of our communities.

We know that in our current situation, the funding has not met the need for now more than a decade.

In fact, we're still advocating for funding levels that would put us on par with where we were in 2008, more than 16 years ago.

And although our legislature has provided additional funding here in the legislative session.

Book of those funds really are going to sure up the pension system that's been woefully underfunded for again, more than a decade.

>> Public education is the cornerstone of our community, its home base for those kids, its home base for those families, its home base for the community leaders because they're always pitching in and helping where they can.

If this voucher amendment passes, I'm scared of what it's going to be for my students.

I'm not just scared of what it's going to do for me.

I'm scared of what it's going to do for those kids.

All of our kids diverting money out of the system, draining resources, more resources away from schools.

It weakens our schools and it hurts our students period.

Vouchers divert critical resources away from public schools and it's instead to unaccountable private schools.

Who do they answer to?

They don't answer to the same people.

We do.

In every state that vouchers are present.

These costs ballooned very quickly.

Over time the strain placed on public schools by this voucher scheme becomes too much and it leads to radical disinvestment in the public schools.

Vouchers would lead to cuts in services.

We would be able to provide our students and families with otherwise.

We provide so many things that the community doesn't even know about.

I would love for you to take a walk in a teacher.

She's one day just to see all of the things that we provide that people don't even register, that we give our students day in and day out and a lot of times because the money's not there.

It comes out of our pockets.

We're not complaining because that's what we do because we love the kids.

But if you're taking more things away from public schools, your teachers are going to have to pony up even more.

And lot of us are staying because we love it, but some of them can afford to stay.

So much to offer.

Want to go to you first to react to what you just heard that educators say.

>> She's exactly Public schools are the cornerstone of our communities in during the flooding in eastern Kentucky.

We made the trip after trip up there taking supplies.

We didn't take him to the fire department.

We didn't take in the city hall.

We took them to a public school.

And there to receive them and distribute them to their to their neighbors where public school teachers and classified employees, these public schools are vital to our rural communities.

This is going to be a giveaway.

To private schools in the don't try almost rule counties don't have private schools.

So I think what this means it was saying is right on the money.

Public schools are vital and they're especially vile in rural areas.

>> So earlier this evening on our week night newscast, Kentucky Edition, we told you all the viewers about a recent kids count data book the results of which were released today and they have several metrics that, of course, kind of gauge the well-being of our come to Kentucky kids and Stack set up with kids across the nation and it's not just education, but for the purposes of tonight's or just go look at a few of these key What they found was is that 69% of 4th graders score below proficient in reading in 2020 to 79% of 8th graders score below proficient in math in 2022.

10% of high school students don't graduate on time in 2021.

22 2020 in 2021. and 20% or more than that.

25 1% of children are chronically absent the last academic school year.

So want to go to the dentist role for Mister Bailey to say, you know, you look at those numbers that were just on the screen and it makes the case for some that traditional public school environments are just not cutting it.

And they're just not making the great give us the defense of why those numbers are the way they are and why public schools need more support.

>> Well, you know, they're definitely schools and classrooms that are struggling in its highly coordinate, coordinate correlated with communities that are struggling with individuals that are struggling.

People, kids that are facing homelessness that are facing hunger that, you know, our our our alright households that don't have living wage jobs and we have to do more to invest in our schools and we have to do more to solve the problems.

Entire communities face to, to make to to make all the entire situation.

But if we can't put everything on our schools, but our schools can do more and they want to do more.

But a lot of the the the interventions that we know work, particularly to deal with those kids that are more disconnected, do costs resources and it requires wrap-around extra extra tutoring, support.

It requires that we have teachers in the classroom and we have a teacher shortage that is growing so that there's higher turnover and there's entire classes that are not being filled.

We have bus drivers if that seats that are filled so kids can even get to school on time necessarily particular day.

So so there there are solutions to these problems.

They do require that we we we invest in a definite require that we don't dis invest in those public schools because, again, the places that are experiencing these biggest, the biggest problems in these areas are going to be the ones that lose public dollars if we shift to about this team because they don't have private schools and no vouchers going to stand up a private school in these rural communities.

>> So to that point, kind of viewer from Owenton says, quote, Public schools will lose funding if students leave.

Most rural counties won't see a change in enrollment so they won't see a loss of funds.

We've got several questions coming in and we'll try to get the mostly statements and we'll try to integrate those into the conversation tonight.

I do want to ask the side of the table, though.

Do we know that private schools that accept whether it's public school dollars and used in whatever form that they actually serve students better at those students actually have better academic outcomes.

>> Well, the students that need that opportunity, yeah, they serve them better.

And that's the whole point here is that you hear again here talking investing in systems are in and in the schools.

But this really ought to be about what students need them.

We know if a special needs student, for example, needs need services or they need a different kind of than the traditional public school can provide.

We even have public schools that are referring students to private schools in order to get what they need.

So the other side table needs this to be about an either or situation.

But the fact is we want to expand the opportunities, not not limit.

Then we want to expand that and the dollars are for educating students.

So that's that's why all the polling that we've seen shows tremendous support among Kentucky families in rural and urban areas.

So there may be more score, but are the outcomes there to make the case?

>> Well, when we the only thing around the country that's closing gaps, for example, between black and white students in key academic areas of public charter schools, which are public schools.

But they're managed differently.

Their run differently.

And I hear the other side.

The table wants no change.

They want no consideration of how to deliver education differently.

That's not realistic.

And the time we're living, there's too many different needs.

And I think they're great public schools doing a great job with students, but that doesn't mean they're going to be able to educate every student in the school.

So there needs to be opportunities and options.

And there was a comment made about these are all vouchers know the Supreme Court has recognized that an education opportunity accounts were a scholarship.

For example, government never touches that many.

That money is donated by individuals and businesses to a 3rd party nonprofit that hands out the scholarships, the qualifying students.

That's not a voucher.

They want to use that term because they think it's a negative turn.

What's negative here is we're going to deny students that need something different.

We're going to deny them because we want to KET the system and prop up this system that is educating that one in 3 of our kids professionally, insufficient.

That alter results of the last decade have been.

>> Pretty dismal.

If you look at there's been studies in Ohio and Indiana in Louisiana and they show academic results that are behind the public schools.

What happens when you pass about your program like this?

A constitutional change would allow, is it primarily funds about 70% funds.

Kids already in private school.

So they're already there.

Their families can already afford it.

For those who you know that there's they're not able to afford those elite private schools, even with a voucher because their families don't have the resources to do so.

>> So it ends up being sort of these pop-up schools.

They just aren't able to provide the quality of education that kids need.

And and that's why the results are poor.

And that's why many of them end up closing the kids have to go back to the public school.

It's it's hard to run a school like it is expensive to run a school and we have our hands full as a poor state running our system of public schools.

Do we want to add a whole other system on that funding with school vouchers that if you look at these other states, the costs are tremendous.

So this question from Honey, Goldman, all why is this amendment not to return to segregation?

So there was some conversation about.

>> Private don't have to abide by the same level of accountability as public schools that they can and essence cherry pick the types of students that they want.

Only high-achieving from high source to resourced families and could they not KET race and the so that it still prices many out of the market who you're with alleged would benefit the most.

>> What we're finding is that when there is a supply and the ability to create schools.

We're seeing we're seeing private schools or nonpublic schools work with families in order to meet those educational needs it.

There tuition is higher than than the than what the families able to pay.

There's all kinds of options there that are being done.

That's just that statement.

Just ignores all of the great things happening in in these programs in other states.

And that's one of them that if if you can't meet if you can't pay the full press, we're going to find a way to educate your children.

And I would challenge the other side to find where that's not happening.

And by the way, the reason is a private school or even a charter school would fail is if the parents are not satisfied with the education being delivered by that school, that's a far different thing than we see in the traditional public education system where if a school doesn't meet the needs of it, students, it never closes.

We pour more money into.

We put more resources there.

We don't really give parents the option, which would be a great dynamic to cause public education to improve.

And Renee in other states in Florida, for example, the more choices they have offered people there, the better their public education system has performed.

And so we think that the answer to a better public education system is not more money because we've already increase spending dramatically.

I mean, in Jackson County, $24,000, almost per pupil.

We're spending there.

So that's not getting the job done.

So we need to ideas.

I'd like to hear what they are.

If it's not giving parents options and empowering parents giving them freedom, then is it going to be propping up the system at so it continues to fail.

>> So Mister mayor of the question to you about all the legality of it all, because there there's been a lot of question about standards and would private schools have to adhere to the same type of standards?

Could the General Assembly out if this was ratified by the voters, then an act law that also stipulated to private schools, what they should do in terms of accepting certain types of students.

You know, enrollment types of measures, that kind of thing is that wise and has that done elsewhere?

The so?

>> Let me just say that the state legislature has what we call the police power.

The federal government doesn't have that, but states do and what?

And that's not literally pertaining to police but remains is the state legislature has a general regulatory authority over everything that goes on in the state with exceptions, of course.

So, yeah, there's a lot that the Legislature can do just are generally regulate education in the state.

They want to bring this back the amendment for a second point out that this is a great discussion we're having about policy right?

But you know where this discussion should be taking place in the legislature, but it can't take place in the legislature by and large because of the restrictions placed on the legislature's authority.

The constitution restrictions were put there in 18, 91.

By the way.

So all this amendment does is clear away.

Those restrictions to get the legislature, the authority to go and make policy.

This amendment doesn't make policy for anybody.

Doesn't set any policy for anything.

All it doesn't says people of Kentucky, you now have the authority to make whatever education policy you want.

And with some exceptions, of course, you've still got to fund public schools minute, but that's a pretty important thing in the United States Supreme Court has referred to the state legislature's as laboratories of democracy.

And what that means is the idea for each state is each take it to set its own policy for itself and states get to experiment with policies and figure out what works best and what doesn't work.

And the idea is that over time, the best ideas rise to the top right?

And so we've had school choice and charter schools in this country for decades.

Now.

And at this point in history.

You have 45 states and the District of Columbia that have charter schools.

If this were a really bad idea, it would not have spread that far.

So I don't I don't really understand why we would want to.

KET our legislature from having the full range of of options before it like other states.

Do.

This was going to destroy this in their school choice would destroy public education.

>> I mean, we would have seen this happen in many other states.

Well, we are seeing.

>> The voucher programs explode just over the past few years ago in Florida, spending for billion dollars.

So the the the the experiment, the laboratory is happening around the country and we're seeing the harmful where money is being diverted from from public schools to to an accountable private schools.

I want to sail around the discriminatory point that, you know, when we have a a program on the books, a private school tax credit voucher there was an amendment on the floor to require that the that anybody receiving that school received that does not discriminate.

And then amendment was voted down.

So so we know that there's a bad track record here mean vouchers.

A rose originally in response to school desegregation as a way to to maintain those those divides.

And so that there's nothing in this amendment that would require the General Assembly to to to prevent those sort of things.

There's nothing in this amendment to require the General Assembly put accountability measures in place.

It is a blank check.

2 politicians to do whatever you want to do and the reason in 18 91, we put this in our Constitution is because we know that public education is so important to a strong democracy.

We wanted to put protections in place.

And this throws those out and for it it it not withstand 7 sections of the Constitution and throws those out.

And I think the voters of Kentucky should be very wary before tossing out a commitment to public education.

When we see what's happening in other state.

And we also see that they're very powerful interests, billionaires who are funding these efforts in other states that, you know, that their interests are not about education there about in challenging the fundamental the our fundamental rights and and our our system of democracy.

public education is at the core that are in effect.

And that's something that that Mister Bailey said are quickly.

I think you said that.

>> These these constitutional provisions were put in place in 18.

91 to protect public education and for some of them, that's that's true for certain section.

23, the first couple clauses of section.

24.

But a lot of the clauses that have been used to restrict school choice or not put there to protect public education.

The report there as taxpayer protection measures, for instance, the last claw, the last couple clauses of Section.

24 were talks about taxation yet in that require a referendum before you can have taxation for education that was put there in response to a Kentucky Court of Appeals decision from 18, 90 called he can be prayer a pretty before the current constitution.

The 18 50 constitution said that any taxes raise for education had to go straight to the common school system can go anywhere else.

The Legislature institute attacks specifically for the University of Kentuckyian all the money went to Kentucky.

There's a lawsuit over that because the question was, this is education.

This is money raised for education.

Shouldn't go to the common schools and the Kentucky Court appeal says, well, we know that's what the Constitution said, but we're going to go to UK anyway.

So the people in the constitutional convention, we're very concerned.

This is going to open the floodgates to more taxes that would not go to the common schools.

They thought the populace was already over taxing the didn't want more taxes.

So this was this was really a taxpayer protection measure, not a high school protection measure.

So it's very important to understand the history behind this.

And so over time, some of that history, we've lost sight of some of that history and all this amendment does is clear out that thicket and say people of Kentucky, we trust you not to trust people to trust the legislators.

And KET in mind, the legislators go to Frankfort and act.

They're not acting for themselves.

They're acting as proxies for the people.

So if you trust the people of Kentucky, just given this opportunity just give them, give them, give them the opportunity to set policy for themselves.

>> I want to go back to our original question.

I think I asked you earlier, as you've said a few times that this does allows them to have more options right?

That's right.

Could they then say then pass it?

This is ratified coming to a session.

Maybe it's 25.

Maybe it's 26 to say now we want to empower local communities to make that choice themselves.

Just like a wet would work.

>> I thought about that.

I have to think about some more, but I think it may be conceivable.

I'm not.

>> Well, I just wanted from this perspective.

If that would satisfy you more, if the voters speak in November, the first Tuesday in November and say we approve and we want the lawmakers to have a wider range of options and let them set policy.

Would you support a policy that would allow the vote to actually be held in local communities?

I would >> the public knows how good our schools are.

They will talk about trusting people every morning people.

The Commonwealth of Kentucky make the conscious decision to put their child on a school bus or drop them off at school and put them into the hands of public educators.

They trust our teachers.

They trust the staff at school school is a refuge for a lot of our children.

Public schools do that.

The province schools have no accountability academically.

No accountability financially.

80% of the students receiving vouchers in Arizona were already attending private schools.

This is just a discount for their parents and talking about financial accountability.

Some of the things that were spent.

In Arizona.

The voucher lodge about supplies, books, things of that nature.

Paid for skiing equipment and troops.

It paid for theme park tickets.

Chicken Coops, Hawaii vacations, hunting lessons driving lessons in luxury cars and calf roping.

That's what you've got in Arizona.

>> Was that part of an education curriculum and someone?

>> I don't know what.

>> Let's say.

They are met your passengers.

We will talk about rest.

Let's trust parents.

I think parents know what's best for their children versus the bureaucrats.

The superintendent's, the the system.

They know what's best.

And I when we talk about trust and by the way, the question about Natalie, to marry a Camry, know Lopez, she manages the research for the National Alliance for Public Charter Schools and she compared student demographics and charter schools versus those of traditional public school districts found that charter schools have a higher portion of students of color compared to district schools and have had for the past 17 years.

Nearly 71% of public charter school students were minorities in the 2021.

22 school year.

That doesn't mean it was a poor versus just as they were.

Minorities doesn't mean that they come from was severed.

>> I was answering the question about segregation, but it supposed to be more to help the neediest of Co. We also have to also of well resource, right.

But we also know that there's about a million kids in using these programs that wouldn't be able to if they didn't have that opportunity.

So I think the trust issue here is with parents and plus, look, I'm not saying this is a silver bullet that, you know, is going to solve our problems.

We've seen a lot of financial malfeasance in the public system as well.

We've got people in prison to 9 from here in Kentuckyian just recently been convicted of of practicing financial mismanagement.

But what accountability is there for that system.

And so if school closes because they're not doing well as as they've mentioned several times now, that's actually a good thing.

We don't want bad schools open failing students.

We want them to close and you see that in the public in in Florida time after time, children would get up.

The go to school.

The teachers would arrive there.

This sign on the door of their private school.

It said.

>> School is closed.

The students had nowhere to go.

The teachers were not pie.

That's anecdotal onto its also the truth.

I'm talking about the day, though, that the tree was not that these kids were standing out there.

>> Well, in Florida.

Wanting to go to school and couldn't because their school had closed.

There was no warning, no, nothing.

What about the kids who can't read but they get a diploma in Kentucky and there was a key point on that.

But I KET your The national economy is booming and 9% of the people who are driving the economy went to a public school or schools were and we need.

And so that's fine.

If they're working great, then why not?

The parents will decide, right?

We trust parents, they'll make the decision that will make the decision to send their children to the public school.

And this amendment will change at this time and will Tanya will drain the state budget and will hurt Communities who don't have the option to go to a private school.

Well, actually, by the way, on that point, the Heritage Foundation's done some interesting research about rural schools and 7 out of 10 families in America live within 10 miles of some kind of nonpublic school.

There He's at the case in Kentucky.

That's the case in Jackson County where there's a couple of small nonpublic Christian schools.

They're they're operating so to say that those in and if we have the opportunity where kids could get financial help and families and lower-income area could get that.

I think we would see more.

We've heard that we would see.

>> But we've also heard legislators, Republicans say that the traditional public school will be the prominent and prevailing method of education in Kentucky.

>> It's not the first.

It covers 90% of kids.

Now it will.

It will continue to have that many even after vouchers, because what vouchers are going to first is fun.

The kids are already in private schools that's not spread throughout the state.

Half of those schools are in 3 counties, existing Kentucky.

So it's going to take money out of these rural areas where the the public school is the center of the community, where it is the only option and they're just won't be enough money in vouchers to is to stand up private schools, private schools that are operating in these areas.

Now these are wealthier areas where people have more of their own resources.

They're putting into that of voucher is not going to make a difference to make new schools pop-up.

They're all throughout.

Kentucky State is going to take money from the existing public schools that Artie serves folks in.

That's already been half of missile for.

We already have school choice in many ways.

You have magnet schools.

You have schools and districts of innovation.

Remember that that concept.

>> Many, many years ago.

I mean, if if you're doing it well, as throughout the state now, well, that's right.

So we're going to pose when we did it.

So it seems as if perhaps that for some kids, they are deserving and in need of an alternative to help them reach higher levels of learning.

What is wrong with that to give the parents the choice?

>> If a child needs special care, honestly don't think they're going to get a private school.

Most private schools are not equipped to help children with special needs.

That's still on the public school to do that.

Well, a lot of public schools are not set up to meet some of those special needs.

We've, as I said earlier.

>> Some of our public schools are referring children to other like the some of the county in Louisville, for example, they're referring kids with severe disabilities or some kids that need another option.

They're they're referring to them to that.

So and the far if our public schools are doing great, then that's their.

Then parents are going to say, hey, this is great for my children.

But if it's not working, then kids does or it should be about what each student needs and by allowing that we actually make our public system better, we make them perform better and we make it more efficient.

We've seen this in other states.

They've spent less than Kentucky in many cases and gotten a better result like Florida.

So it's competition work.

So why wouldn't work and the education space?

Why would it help all boats rise if you have this competition from private schools, why would help publicists?

>> Because it's going to take resources from the system that we have work.

We don't have endless resources.

>> To to sort of divide among both public and private systems.

>> If we if we would provide vouchers to the 58,000 kids already in private school in Kentucky, which is exactly what's happening in other states.

That would be hundreds of millions of dollars.

Where is that going to come from?

I haven't heard anybody talk about raising taxes or this magic pot of money it's going to come from.

It's going to come out of those schools.

And so it's going to be they're going to be less able to do the kind of things that that that we need them to do.

And in public schools are required to accept all students.

They required to do everything they can to serve them.

When they win.

Their resources are reduced which they already have been even before vouchers and will be even more.

So after vouchers, if this amendment were to pass, it is going to be harder for them to serve every child to the to the degree that we need them to.

>> So this that came in earlier this evening from Lexington viewer.

If amendment 2 passes and parents can get vouchers for any private school.

They want.

Will that allow parents to use their public tax dollars to pay for schools that teach things like the Earth?

It's flat.

And we've gotten a few questions about ideologies and religiosity in their kids being exposed to that.

And that being funded through public dollars again, I think parents should be able to send their children to school.

That's not going to undermine their values, whatever those are.

>> And that could be a whole list of things.

Whether it's we're talking about religious values, cultural values, they should have that option.

They should not be forced to do.

We think really the parent should be forced to send their child to a school that doesn't support their values or their beliefs or doesn't properly a just so if a as a mater of Black Lives Matter, it should be funded.

The is one that we do office.

It was exactly because I remember the difference in the public and nonpublic school is the accountability factor in the greatest accountability is.

>> Those are schools of choice.

Parents choose to send their children to those schools.

And if they choose not to the school doesn't exist.

That's the greatest level of accountability I can think of.

>> For an economic one I appreciate the bit.

I think there's something very important to understand here.

Mister Bailey keeps talking about vouchers, understand he's very passionate about that issue.

But let's be very clear this this is not a voucher program.

This amendment does not make any policy.

This amendment does not institute vouchers.

That does not choir vouchers.

There will not magically the vouchers the day after this passes.

All this does again is it puts the ball in the court of the Legislature to make policy if the Legislature decides to make to cry about yours, then we'll have a system like that.

If they don't, we won't.

This amendment has nothing to do with vouchers.

All this amendment does is it sets the stage for the legislature to be able to make education policy unfettered of any restrictions were put on the 18 90's.

If there's to be a voucher program.

That's a policy question for the Legislature.

This amendment does not address that.

It does not make that decision.

It may never come to pass that we have actors in Kentucky.

So I understand Mister Bailey passion about it.

But that's that's like that's comparing apples and oranges.

We have about your program on the books.

It was it was passed in 2021.

It was this is a tax credit program.

It was tossed out by the Supreme Court unanimously unanimously about for violating our commitment to >> a public education.

And it's still in the General Assembly has not repealed it.

So we know what they're going to.

They've already put it into law.

They wanted.

It's a voucher program.

It's not even if you look at other states that don't have the constitutional protections for public education that Kentucky has.

They started with a small targeted program like that one.

And they've expanded them over the last year.

So so the idea that they want that this amendment would overturn 130 year commitment to public education.

And they're not going to create a new policy on them and they're not going to do anything with a dramatic change to the Constitution.

I think it's hard to buy this is this is it.

This is here for a reason for not doing anything.

We cannot make any changes.

The think there is not any room for discussion and debate.

That's what >> this amendment will simply allow, that we can't even have that debate right now.

So what what is the problem when are you afraid of that?

We might have some changes to even if it's going to answer that.

That might benefit students.

You KET talking about unfettered.

That would be unfettered the be unfettered by our Constitution.

>> They would have unfettered unchecked power to do what they want with our public schools to make any policy want without.

You're right.

It's not.

They haven't said it's about vouchers.

We're going to give them the unfettered unchecked power.

Something.

But no, it was Meals would mean we know.

Mister Bailey's point they did in 2021 past education.

Opportunity accounts, right?

Well, that >> they did.

Yeah.

And that was that was so why would they do?

That's not a voucher program, though.

They may very well do it.

But my point is all this does is it gives the legislature the opportunity to make policy for itself versus having options taken away from it.

And of course, there will still be other constitutional restrictions mean there are there things that the government cannot do just because, you know, you've got all the the bill of rights.

You got all these restrictions that the government cannot transgress.

So those are all still be there.

You'll still have an obligation to fund public schools that will still be there.

That will still happen.

Section one.

83 is not going off.

The books are a lot of laws on the books that are not withstood every year.

The legislature.

>> And that there's no right prevent them from notwithstanding that 6, the cause.

That's right.

And the Commonwealth does not fall to pieces because that happens.

The Legislature has free free rein to set policy on most things.

And it does a pretty good job.

It has.

It has free rein to set to set the criminal justice policy that works out.

Fine has free rein to set tax policy had free rein also to make ensure that any private school that came in Kentucky will not discriminate on the basis of race, gender.

Religion.

Sorry.

That's right.

And they decided not to do that.

I'm not.

I'm not.

And how well I'm saying that you say that Russell legislatures.

I'm sure there are nice people collectively they voted to allow discrimination in private school.

I'm not sure if you're talking about because it's it's illegal to discriminate on those bases.

House Bill 570, 32 years ago.

But you can't you can't discriminate on the basis of race religion.

You just you can't.

Yeah.

to shun.

And there was an amendment to the bill that was voted on the floor.

>> That would prohibit discrimination.

It was voted down.

Many of these programs in other states do not have a anti-discrimination provisions.

About half of them don't have anything about race that they're They they require people to suspend their rights as far as disabilities.

Concern to to take the voucher and go to the private school.

There are all kinds of ways in which they they do not that the whole purpose of of wanting to change the Constitution to fund as fun schools outside of that common schools is to remove public a kind of, you know, when you say suspend their right.

So when someone deals with disabilities, what do you mean by that?

That they don't have to?

>> Require certain require certain accommodations.

There's federal law associated with that in these these are private institutions that they can do that and and they will be in.

They can do that now.

But the difference is if this was to pass.

>> And the policies with a voucher policy would be put in place, which is what we should expect because it's already on the books.

Is it they would be funded with public tax dollars and this should be just a different level of scrutiny in a kind of this last week was happening.

And that's just against the constitution that says the so that's that's just that's just a scare tactic that's never going to come to for signs White.

Why if I'm a parent with a special needs student in I need that and they need that.

I'm not I'm not going to choose that school.

>> Here's here's the point I want to make their is school choice of Mister Bailey is right.

We do have school choice in Kentucky if you're wealthy.

Yeah, school, you can.

You can send your child to a private school and write the check for the tuition.

>> Do you dispute the fact that 80% of those would already go to private and those numbers from the other states were right.

But I did when I I there.

Yes, that's I don't.

That's not right.

We're seeing tremendous enters the bone middle and lower income families and kids hockey in in not well in other states.

That was the court.

That was the point about weather.

People were in other states where wealthy people are using We're using the scholarships.

But the other point not all school choices.

The same.

What about public charter Mister Bailey has has opposed even having that.

That's just simply a different way of delivering public education.

So that's not even involving a voucher or a scholarship.

Why?

Why such opposition that doing something different in trying new ideas?

This question real quickly from would like to know if the members of the panel attended public or private secondary schools.

>> Public school.

>> Public school public school.

And this isn't going to change that.

This is this is giving this is expanding the options for parents.

If you like your public school, this is not going to be, in fact as chance that this amendment is not going to set policy at all.

It's going to simply allow us to have that discussion.

And I don't know why there would be such fire with that.

>> As you mentioned earlier, why stop there?

Why didn't you wouldn't just give the allowance without doing something with the permission has been granted by what what is done is still to be decided.

What is that now?

We have a some of that.

Would you agree that there's been some discussion to give path forward on the options available education opportunity accounts about issues?

I think you'd be wrong not to with only 1, 3 of our kids reading professionally and they could be wrong not to talk about new ideas, but what's what that's going to be?

I think we need to just have a debate about it.

45 states have public charter schools.

33 states have nonpublic school choice options.

The sky has fallen in.

It's many of their public systems have done better and spent less.

So as we round out here, it just got a couple of minutes remaining.

We mentioned at the top of the show that this is one of the most interesting items on the Kentucky ballot this year.

We expect to see a lot of money on both sides of the on this issue to to push it across.

I do want to give you Mister offered.

If you want to give a last pitch for, I'm making the case for why voters in November should reject amendment.

What would you say?

I love your speech.

>> Voters should reject this amendment because it not withstand 7 sections of our Constitution.

It gives our Legislature unfettered power to not fund our schools to not have referendums on school, financial issues.

People in Kentucky trust their public schools that they trust public educators.

I think that's going to show up in the event.

>> we also think, as I mentioned in the intro that this is not going to be red versus blue Republican versus Democrat, but urban versus rule.

Mister Meredith, you care to chime in on that.

>> Yes, a good question.

And I am I'm originally from a ruel part of the state and a proud graduate of Grayson County High School.

if that may very well be the but I think people across the state recognize the value in having 19th century restrictions removed from educational policy and they recognize the value in allowing their legislators to act on their behalf and have their trust and their confidence allowing those people to make the decisions that they think will best benefit the Commonwealth.

One got 20 seconds.

Mister Bay, there's reasons you put things in the These are core The bill of Rights was mentioned earlier.

We don't just throw that up to the Legislature to vote on.

>> In the same way, public education has long been a communique.

Me give you the final word.

Mister Waters We need to focus on students rather than systems and this can be a both and this can be expanding ideas.

New ideas for education.

And we need that in Kentucky.

According to our outcomes.

>> All right.

Good discussion, very robust conversation will probably have it again before the election November next week on Kentucky.

Light will look at the state of the media.

That's going to be a good one.

Be sure to join us each week night as well at 6.30, Eastern 5.30, central for Kentucky Edition, we break down these types of issues in the activities going on around them and then join Bill Bryant and a team working journalist to discuss the News of the week on comment on Kentucky Friday at 8 Eastern 7 central.

Thank you so much for watching Kentucky tonight.

I'm Renee Shaw and I'll see you tomorrow night for Kentucky.

Addition, take good care.

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