>> Renee: GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO "KENTUCKY TONIGHT" PIPE RENEE SHAW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

TONIGHT A DISCUSSION ABOUT SCHOOL CHOICE.

LAST YEAR, LAWMAKERS NARROWLY PASSED A LAW THAT OFFERS TAX CREDIT TOSS USE FOR PRIVATE SCHOOL TUITION OR EXPENSES AT PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAT ONLY APPLY TO THE STATE'S LARGEST COUNTIES.

IT WAS STRUCK DOWN BY FRANKLIN CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE PHILLIP SHEPHERD.

HE SAID THE LAW FELL SHORT OF A CONSTITUTIONAL MANDATE PROVIDING AN EFFICIENT SYSTEM OF COMMON SCHOOLS AND THAT NOT ALL COUNTIES WOULD BENEFIT FROM THE TUITION CINCHES, JUST THE LARGEST ONES.

THIS YEAR IS GENERAL ASSEMBLY IS CONSIDERING LEGISLATION THAT WOULD EXPAND THE PROGRAM TO THE ENTIRE STATE.

CRITIC LAST YEAR AND THIS YEAR SAY TAX CREDITS TAKE MONEY AWAY FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SOMETHING SUPPORTERS DENY.

TO TALK ALL ABOUT THE SCHOOL CHOICE ISSUE TONIGHT WE'RE GLAD TO BE JOINED IN OUR LIGHTNING STUDIO BY SENATOR RALPH ALVARADO BE A REPUBLICAN FROM WINCHESTER.

REPRESENTATIVE TINA BOJANOWSKY, A DEMOCRAT FROM LOUISVILLE AND A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE EDUCATION COMMITTEE.

ANDREW VANDIVER PRESIDENT OF EDCHOICE KENTUCKY.

AND EDDIE CAMPBELL, PRESIDENT OF THE KENTUCKY EDUCATION ASSOCIATION.

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IN OUR STUDIO.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU ALL.

LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW WE GOT HERE FOR JUST A LITTLE BIT.

I MENTIONED HOUSE BILL 563 WAS THE LAW THAT WAS STRUCK DOWN.

WE THINK THAT THE KENTUCKY SUPREME COURT COULD HEAR THAT ANY DAY.

MR. VANDIVER, DO YOU HAVE ANY INTEL ON THAT MIGHT COME UP FOR A HEARING?

>> REALLY ANY DAY NOW.

WE KNOW THE COURT IS CONSIDERING THE MOTION TO TRANSFER THE CASE TO THE SUPREME COURT, AND WE'RE HOPEFUL THAT THE COURT WILL HATER SOON.

WE KNOW THAT THIS PROGRAM IS URGENT NEEDED BY STUDENTS, AND WE HOPE THAT IT'S TAKEN UP IN TIME FOR STUDENTS TO ACTUALLY PARTICIPATE OUR SCHOOL YEAR 22-23.

>> SO IF THE SUPREME COURT ACTS IN YOUR FAVOR, WOULD THE BILLS THAT ARE CURRENTLY PENDING FOR THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, WOULD THERE NOT BE A NEED?

>> NO, WE BELIEVE THAT THE RIGHT POLICY IS TO GO STATEWIDE.

THE PROGRAM, AS PASSED, WAS CONSTITUTIONAL.

HOUSE WILL 563.

IT WAS A PILOT PROGRAM, FIVE-YEAR PILOT PROGRAM FOCUSED ON KENTUCKY'S EIGHT LARGEST COUNTIES WHEN IT COMES TO TUITION ASSISTANCE AND OTHER SERVICES WOULD BE AVAILABLE STATEWIDE, BUT WE BELIEVE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO, GO AHEAD AND MOVE FORWARD, MAKE THE PROGRAM STATEWIDE.

THE NEED IS JUST INCREDIBLE ACROSS THE STATE.

WITH COVID IT'S JUST WREAKED HAVOC WITH LIVES OF STUDENTS ALL ACROSS THE STATE, HARMFUL EFFECTS THAT ARE GOING TO RIPPLE ACROSS KENTUCKY FOR YEARS TO COME.

THERE'S AN URGENCY TO MOVE NOW.

MAKE THIS STAYED STATEWIDE.

MAKE SURE AS MANY STUDENTS THAT WANT TO PARTICIPATE CAN PARTICIPATE.

>> SO I WANT TO GO TO YOU, SENATOR ALVARADO YOU'RE CHAIR OF THE SENATE HEALTH AND WELFARE COMMITTEE BUT YOU ARE THE SPONSOR OF SENATE BILL 50 SO HOW DOES THE CHAIR OF THE HEALTH COMMITTEE COME TO BE THE SPONSOR OF THIS PRETTY LARGE EDUCATION MEASURE?

>> YEAH, PERSONAL TO ME.

I THINK I'VE TOLD MY STORY BEFORE PUBLICALLY.

MY PARENT WERE IMMIGRANTS DO THIS COUNTRY.

THEY -- THEY DECIDED WHEN I WAS PRETTY YOUNG THEY WANTED ME TO GO INTO A DIFFERENT TYPE OF NON-PUBLIC EDUCATION THAT WAS IMPORTANT FOR THEM CULTURALLY, FROM A RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND, THEY WANTED ME TO LEARN ABOUT CHRIST IN SCHOOL AND THAT WASN'T GOING TO BE OFFERED IN PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEMS.

MY FOLKS WERE NOT WEALTHY PEOPLE.

MY PARENT WERE HARD WORKING.

THEY BOTH HAD TO WORK TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THING AT HOME.

I DIDN'T HAVE WEALTHY FRIENDS TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT AND PINCHED A LOT OF PENNIES, WORKED REALLY HARD TO STAVE MONEY, SACRIFICED REALLY, AND AT TIMES ULTIMATELY BORROWED MONEY AGAINST A HOME AND DIFFERENT THINGS TO MAKE SURE I COULD GET THAT TYPE AN EDUCATION.

I KNOW A LOT OF KIDS WHO, SOME OF THEM HAD SCHOLARSHIP OPPORTUNITIES BUT SOME WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY, MANY FAMILIES OF COLOR NOW IN LEXINGTON AND LOUVRE THAT I'VE TALKED TO WHO WOULD LOVE TO HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY BUTT THAT HAVE NO EQUITY IN THEIR HOMES, NO OPPORTUNITY.

THEY RENT.

THEY CAN'T AFFORD THAT AND THEY WOULD LIKE THAT OPPORTUNITY TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A DIFFERENT OPTION FOR THEIR WINNER THAT THEY THINK MIGHT BE BETTER.

I NOW HAVE THAT OPTION FOR MY KIDS.

I CAN SEND THEM ANYWHERE I WANT.

MANY FAMILIES DO.

SCHOOL CHOICE EXISTS FOR CERTAIN FAMILIES BUT NOT FOR ALL FAMILIES.

AND SO WHEN I LOOK AT THE PROGRAM THAT WE'VE PROPOSED, WHEN I READ THESE OPTIONS, THIS WOULD HAVE HELPED MY FAMILY, AND I LEARN ABOUT IT WHEN I APPLIED FOR COLLEGE.

I APPLIED TO SOME REALLY WELL RENOWNED SCHOOLS IN THE BAY AREA AND CALIFORNIA WHERE I GROUP, AND I REMEMBER MY FATHER HAVING THE DISCUSSION SAYING, SON, WE'RE PROUD OF WHAT YOU HAVE DONE WITH YOUR SCHOOL WORK.

YOU'VE GOTTEN GOOD GRADES.

IF YOU GO INTO THOSE SCHOOLS WEAR TAPPED OUT.

WE CAN'T HELP YOU GET THERE PUNCH TO BE ABLE TO DO IT ON YOUR OWN.

SO THERE ARE LOTS OF DIFFERENT OPTIONS FOR PEOPLE.

I'VE HEARD FROM A LOT OF OTHER PARENTS AROUND THE STATE WHO HAVE SAID WE'D LIKE TO HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY.

WE JUST CAN'T AFFORD IT.

IS IT REY FAIR FOR CERTAIN FAMILIES TO HAVE SCHOOL CHOICE AND NOT FOR OTHERS?

THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO TRY TO BROADEN THAT AND LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD.

>> SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNT, RIGHT?

THE SAME AS THE SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDITS.

THESE THINGS ARE KIND OF INTERCHANGEABLE.

BUT ANOTHER EUPHEMISM IS OFTEN SCHOOL VOUCHERS.

SO, EDDIE CAMPBELL, I WANT TO ASK YOU DO YOU THINK THAT THESE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS ARE REALLY SCHOOL VOUCHERS IN DISGUISE AND WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THEMES A SUCH?

>> YES, WE WOULD CALL THEY SCHOOL VOUCHERS.

ANY TIME YOU TAKE PUBLIC MONEY AND YOU PROVIDE IT TO A PRIVATE INSTITUTION, PUBLIC TAX DOLLARS AND PROVIDE IT TO A PUBLIC -- A PRIVATE INSTITUTION, IT'S A VOUCHER, AND WE CAN DISGUISE IT ANYWAY WE WANT.

IT'S STILL GOING TO BE A VOUCHER, AND ANY SCHEME THAT WE PUT TOGETHER IN THAT FORM.

THE REAL QUESTION HERE IS WHY AREN'T WE REALLY FOCUSING ON FUNDING OUR UNDERFUNDED SCHOOLS IN THE STATE RIGHT NOW.

>> AND SO GIVE US THE RECORD OF HOW EDUCATION HAS IMPROVED SINCE CARA, SKINS THE 1990 KENTUCKY EDUCATION ACT AND I AM WHY APPROVE STUDENT OUTCOMES IF IT REALLY IS DOING WHAT IT WAS INTENDED TO DO, THEN WHY ARE THESE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT ALTERNATIVES BEING HAD AT SUCH BIGGER -- >> SO WHEN KERA PASSED IN 1990 AND WE GOT INTO OUR SCHOOL REFORM, OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS TOOK OFF BECAUSE THEY WERE GETTING THE NECESSARY FUNDING.

WE EQUALIZED THE FUNDING SO THAT NO MATTER WHERE THE STUDENT ATTENDED SCHOOL IN ANY PART OF THE STATE, THEY HAD THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES, THEY HAD THE SAME PROGRAMS THAT COULD BE OFFERED, BUT SINCE 2008 WHEN WE HAD THE ECONOMIC TURNDOWN, DOWN TURN, RATHER, THE FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS HAS BEEN MOOT.

IT'S NOT GROWN.

WE'RE ABOUT 17 PER MEDICINE IN OUR SEEK-BASED FUNDING.

WE HAVE CUT AFTER CUT AFTER CUT WITH EXTENDED SCHOOL SERVICES, TEXTBOOKS BE, RESOURCES, WHOLE CHILD SERVICES LIKE COUNSELORS AND MENTAL HEALTH AND NURSES, AND EVERY TIME WE DON'T FUND OR INCREASE OURAL SCHOOL FUNDING YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR, WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE CUTTING SERVICES TO TOWER STUDENTS, WE'RE CUTTING -- TO OUR STUDENTS, WE'RE CUTTING RESOURCES TO OUR STUDENTS, WE'RE MAKING CLASS SIZES LARGER SO IT MAKES IT HARDER AND HARDER TO MEET THE NEEDS OF STUDENTS, AND OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS OPEN THEIR DOORS TO STUDENTS EVERY SINGLE DAY AND EDUCATORS OPEN THEIR ARMS WIDE AND SAY, COME HERE, WE'RE GOING TO MEET YOUR NEEDS BY WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY, AND THAT'S BECOME HARDER AND HARDER SINCE 2008.

>> REPRESENTATIVE BOJANOWSKY, YOU ARE A SPECIAL EDUCATION TEACHER.

FIRST OF ALL THANK YOU FORE BEING HERE.

THIS IS YOUR FIRST TIME IN OUR STUDIO SO THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHY ARE THESE SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDITS OR EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS A THREAT TO PUBLIC EDUCATION?

>> WELL, AND I'M GOING TO START WITH JUST AN ANSWER AND SHARING A LITTLE BIT OF MY STORY JUST AS SENATOR ALVARADO DID.

MY MOTHER WAS ALSO AN IMMIGRANT.

SHE EMIGRATED HERE FROM GERMANY, AND WE DID PRETTY WELL AT THE BEGINNING, BUT THEN MY PARENTS GOT DIVORCED AND SHE RAISED US ON A SINGLE-PARENT INCOME.

WE DID PUBLIC SCHOOLS ALL THE WAY THROUGH, INCLUDING BEING BUSSED TO CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL DURING THE MANDATORY DESEGREGATION, AND BOTH MY SIBLINGS WENT TO BROWN UNIVERSITY.

I MEAN, WE HAD A PHENOMENAL PUBLIC EDUCATION.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK AS A TEACHER, I THINK THAT WE DO A REALLY GOOD JOB.

I THINK TO THAT PART OF THE CONCERN ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WANTING TO HAVE ALTERNATIVES, JUDGE SHEPHERD MENTIONED IN ONE OF HIS STATEMENTS THAT MAYBE WE'RE NOT FUNDING OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS ADEQUATELY TO PROVIDE THE ADEQUATE OPPORTUNITIES FOR ALL CHILDREN, AND SO I THINK THAT THAT'S REALLY SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT CLOSELY.

IF WE LOOK AT THE SEEK NUMBER, THE ACTUAL SEEK NUMBER IS HIGHER THAN IT WAS, BUT IF YOU TAKE THE 2008 NUMBER AND ACCOUNT FOR INFLATION, WE'RE ABOUT $54 MILLION SHORTER.

SO -- >> EVEN WITH THE PROPOSAL BEFORE THE HOUSE, IT STILL COMES UP SHORT, IN YOUR OPINION.

>> YES.

SO WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WHAT WE'RE DOING IN PUBLIC EDUCATION IS PROVIDING AN ADEQUATE OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL CHILDREN WITHIN THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.

>> SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT JUDGE PHILLIP SHEPHERD HAD MENTIONED WAS ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT THESE SCHOLARSHIP HOUSE CREDIT OR TAX BILL 563 BECAUSE IT WASN'T THE WHOLE BILL BUT IT WAS PORTIONS ENOUGH THAT WOULDN'T HAVE MADE IT ENFORCEABLE HAD IT REMAINED INTACT WITHOUT THE OBJECTIONABLE PARTS, TALKED ABOUT THIS IDEA OF THE COMMON SCHOOLS, AND THAT IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

SO IF SOMETHING IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, DO YOU NOT MAKE IT CONSTITUTIONAL BUTT BY PUTTING IT BEFORE THE VOTERS?

AND SHOULD BE THAT BE THE ROUTE THAT THIS TYPE OF MEASURE TAKES?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

THERE ARE TOM THAT ARE ARGUING TO DO THAT, PUTTING OF THIS THESE THESE MEASURES BEFORE THE VOTERS IN CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS TO KIND CHANGE A LOT OF THIS.

SO THERE ARE SOME THAT ARE PROPOSING THOSE IDEAS.

I'VE HEARD RUMBLINGS IN THE HOUSE.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S BEEN PROPOSED OR NOT.

>> DO YOU SUPPORT THAT?

>> NI IF IT'S GOING TO -- THIS WE'VE HAD PLENTY OF LIST LAWS THAT WE'VE PASSED THAT THE SUPREME COURT HAS SAID IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

I'VE GOT A BILL THAT I FILED OVER AND OVER AGAIN TRYING TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION DAUS BECAUSE I THINK IT'S SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO MAKE THAT DECISION ON.

SO IF THAT'S GOING TO BE THE ARGUMENT, I THINK ENOUGH PEOPLE IN IN COMMONWEALTH WANT THIS.

POLLING SHOWS 70% OF KENTUCKIANS WANT SCHOOL CHOICE OF SOME SORT OR OTHER, AND I THINK YOU HAVE YOU FOUND, I THINK WE'RE ONE OF FIVE STATES REMAINING IN THE COUNTRY THAT HAS -- DOESN'T HAVE SCHOOL CHOICE FOR PARENTS GLOBALLY ACROSS THE BOARD.

IF IT'S SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE WANT AND OUR CONSTITUTION IS CAN BELONG IT, MAYBE IT'S TIME FOR US TO CONSIDER CHANGING OUR CONSTITUTION TO KEEP UP WITH PEOPLE WANT IN THIS STATE, AND YOU'RE SEEING IT GLOBALLY.

IT'S NOT JUST SOMETHING THAT CERTAIN GROUPS WANT.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S SUPPORTED ACROSS ALL POLITICAL LINES, ACROSS RACIAL LINES, ACROSS SOCIOECONOMIC STAT US.

PEOPLE WANT THIS AND PARENTS WANT THIS FOR THEIR FAMILIES AND ESPECIALLY NOW AFTER WE'VE GONE THROUGH THE LAST COUPLE YEARS.

THERE'S THAT MUCH THAT MUCH MORE FOCUS.

THE IF IT REQUIRES THAT, I THINK WE NEED TO CONSIDER IT AND THERE'S SOMETHING THAT COULD BE PROPOSED TO BE PROPERTY FORWARD.

THERE ARE A LOT OF CHANGES THAT PEOPLE ARE PROPOSING IN MANY AREAS TAUGHT THAT'S BUN WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY IT'S NOT ENERGIES TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION.

THE PROGRAM AS PASSED IS CONSTITUTIONAL AND THESE PROGRAMS HAVE BEEN CHALLENGED IN STATES ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHETHER THAT'S STATES LIKE FLORIDA OR INDIANA, BUT EVEN UP TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, AND THEY'VE ALL BEEN UPHELD.

TAX REPRESENTED PROGRAMS HAVE A PERFECT RECORD IN THE COURTS.

DIDN'T TAX CREDIT PROGRAMS.

THE DECISION FROM JUDGE SHEP ERRED FRANKLIN CIRCUIT COURT WAS ONE BAD CASE FROM ONE JUDGE.

WE'RE CONFIDENT THE KENTUCKY SUPREME COURT IS GOING TO UPHOLD THE PROGRAM AND SO THERE'S NO REASON TO WAIT.

PARENTS WANT THIS PROGRAM.

I WOULD DISPUTE BEYOND THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SIDE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT INFLATION ADJUSTED DOLLARS, PUBLIC EDUCATION SPENDING HAS INCREASED, AND RIGHT NOW WE'RE SITTING AT ABOUT $14,000 PER PUPIL.

>> AND THAT'S COUNTING FRAM AND STATE DOLLARS, CORRECT?

>> YES.

SOWARRY DAWNING TALKING ABOUT FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL DOLLARS.

WE SPEND ABOUT $8 BILLION WHEN YOU COUNT ALL THOSE RESOURCES TOGETHER AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THAT PUBLIC SCHOOL HAVE IM.

WE'VE SEEN THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP THAT HAS LITERALLY BEEN THE SAME OVER A DECADE AND HAVEN'T GOTTEN BETTER.

IT'S TIME TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

TAKE BOLD STEPS.

I DENY THE FACT THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE HARMED BY SCHOOL CHOICE, AND THERE'S A NEW REPORT THAT I HAD THE BENEFIT OF LOGIC A TODAY THAT PROVIDE SOME REALLY CONCRETE DATA ON THIS POINT, AND IT LOOKS AT, YOU KNOW, THE STATES THAT HAVE HAD THESE PROGRAMS FOR DECADES AND ALSO THE STATES THAT HAVE THE LARGEST PROGRAMS, SO YOU WOULD THINK IF THERE'S ANY IMPACT ON PUBLIC SCHOOLS, IT WOULD BE IN THOSE STATES WHERE YOU HAVE HAD PROGRAMS FOR A ALONG TIME AND THEY'RE VERY BIG, AND I GENERALLY DON'TID TRY TO READ IN THIS PROGRAM BUT I AM GOING TO READ A SEGMENT OF THIS REPORT BECAUSE EYE THINK IT IS IMPORTANT.

SO THEY'RE LINING ATTARS, FLORIDA, INDIANA, OHIO AND WISCONSIN MOST REBUS CHOICE PROGRAMS IN THE DESCRIBE, AND IT WILL SAYS IN INLAND STATES WITH THE OLDEST AND LARGEST EDUCATIONAL CHOICE POLICIES, THE INFLATION ADJUSTED PER PUPIL FUNDING HAS INCREASED AND THE AVERAGE PERFORMANCE OF DISTRICT SCHOOLS IS GOOD OR BETTER THAN WHEN THE CHOICE POLICIES WERE FIRST ENACTED.

SO -- >> WHERE DOES THAT STUDY COME FROM?

>> THIS IS AN EDCHOICE GROUP OUT OF INDIANAPOLIS UNITED CHOICE KENTUCKY.

>> BUT THEIR AFFILIATED WITH EDCHOICE.

>> WE'RE NOT AFFILIATED IS IF BUT THEY'RE AN ADVOCACY GROUP.

>> THEY'RE PART OF THE MOVEMENT.

BUT WE'RE LOOKING AT NAPE COURSE FROM THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

THEY'RE LOOKING AT THE EDUCATION QUALITY INDEX AND THESE ARE INDEPENDENT STUDIES THEY'RE LOOKING AT, AND I WOULD CHALLENGE THE OTHER TIED SIDE TO POINT TO ANY EVIDENCE THAT PUBLIC SCHOOL, THAT THE PROGRAMS ARE DOING WORSE.

THEY'RE NOT.

THEY'RE ACTUALLY DOING BETTER AND THEIR FUNDING HAS INCREASED.

YOU ANT DISPUTE WHETHER THE NAEP SCORES HAVE GONE UP OR NOT OR ANYTHING ANYBODY CAN LOOK THE OR WHETHER THE FUNDING HAS GONE UP ARE THINGS YOU CAN LOOK AT.

HOW DOES THAT MATTER TO KENTUCKY?

>> AND WHETHER IT TRANSLATE TO KENTUCKY WHICH IS A BIG UNKNOWN.

>> IT'S NOT UNKNOWN.

WHEN YOU HAVE VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THIGHS STATES THAT HAS ONE THESE PROGRAMS THAT SCHOOLS ARE DOING BETTER OR HAVEN'T DONE ANY HARM, THERE'S NO DAMAGE, THAT'S PRETTY MUCH INDISPUTABLE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PROGRAMS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND SINCE THE LATE 90s.

ALSO TO THAT POINT HOW DOES THIS REFLECT ON KENTUCKY?

WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACT YET BUT ONCE IT'S ENACTED IT'S GOING TO IMPROVE THE LIVES OF THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS.

WE KNOW THAT.

ALSO, WHEN YOU LOOK AT FUNDING, THE EDUCATION FUNDING DOLLARS GOING UP, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY FUNDED 140 MILLION MORE DOLLARS TO KINDERGARTEN FUNDING FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS AT THE SAME TIME THEY PASSED THIS PROGRAM.

AND YOU'RE PROBABLY GOING TO SEE ANOTHER INCREASE FOR PUBLIC SCHOOL FUNDING THIS YEAR.

SO WHY NOT ALSO TRY TO DOAL SCHOOL CHOICE?

YOU CAN DO BOTH.

THIS SIDE OF THE TABLE, WE BELIEVE YOU CAN SUPPORT PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND THE SCHOOL CHOICE.

>> YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GET ALL YOUR POINTS IN RIGHT NOW.

THEY CAN A BREATH THERE.

JUST A SECOND BECAUSE -- >> I GOT A LITTLE EXCITED.

>> THAT'S OKAY.

THAT'S WHY YOU'RE HERE BUT WE DO WANT TO HEAR FROM A MADISON COUNTY TEACHER BECAUSE TO SENATOR ALVARADO'S POINT THAT THE PANDEMIC DID KIND OF THE HEIGHTEN THIS ISSUE MAYBE FOR FOLKS WHO HAD BEEN BEANIES DISY GAUGED SO AT THE SCHOOL CHOICE RALLY YOU HAD A QUESTIONS GUESS PAY WEEK AGO THERE I WAS WOMAN FROM NAD SON COUNTY NAMED DESIÉE CAUDAL AND HERE'S WHAT SHE SHARED WITH THE CROWD.

>> TWO OF MY GREAT CHILDREN, MY TWO YOUNGER CHILDREN ATTEND A PRIVATE SCHOOL IN MADISON COUNTY.

IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS MY YOUNGEST SON STRUGGLED WITH THE LARGE CLASS SIZESES AND WEI HE HAS SENSORY ISSUES WHERE HE COULD NOT FUNCTION IN A LOUD ENVIRONMENT.

DURING THE COVID PANDEMIC I WATCHED MY CHILDREN FAIL TO KEEP UP WITH VIRTUAL LEARNING.

THAT IS WHEN I MADE THE DIFFICULT DECISION TO ENROLL THEM IN A PRIVATE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

THEY ARE NOW THRIVING IN THEIR NEW ENVIRONMENT.

THEY BENEFIT FROM SMALL CLASS SIZES, PERSONAL ATTENTION FROM THEIR TEACHERS AND THEY HAVE MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR HANDS-ON LEARNING.

MY CHILDREN WAKE UP EVERY DAY SO EXCITED TO GO TO SCHOOL.

THEY HAVE TRULY FALLEN IN LOVE WITH LEARNING.

BUT AS A SINGLE PARENT, I PINCH PENNIES TO PAY FOR THE COSTLY TUITION.

TOO OFTEN I HAVE HAD TO CHOOSE BETWEEN PAYING TUITION OR PAYING MY BILLS.

BEING FROM MADISON COUNTY, MY FAMILY DOES NOT QUALIFY FOR THE TUITION ASSISTANCE IN THIS NEW KENTUCKY SCHOOL CHOICE LAW.

WITH THE EXPANSION OF COOL CHOICE ACROSS ALL OF KENTUCKY COULD CHANGE THE FUTURE FOR MY FAMILY.

MY CHILDREN COULD CONTINUE TO GROW AND LEARN IN A NUR CHURNING ENVIRONMENT.

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF KENTUCKY FAMILIES THAT ARE JUST LIKE MINE, BUDGETING THEIR LAST DOLLARS TO GET THEIR CHILD INTO THE RIGHT LEARNING ENVIRONMENT.

SOMETHING WE SOME FAMILIES CANNOT AFFORD A CHOICE AT ALL, AND AS A PARENT WE JUST WA TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE THE RIGHT EDUCATION ENVIRONMENT FOR OUR CHILDREN.

>> SO REPRESENTATIVE BONNELL, I WANT YOU TO ANSWER THAT.

SHE JUST WANTS TO RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO CHOOSE THE BEST EDUCATIONAL OPTION FOR HER CHILD.

>> I THINK EVERY PARENT SHOULD BE ABLE TO CHOOSE WHAT'S BEST FOR THEIR OWN CHILD, BUT I THINK THAT AS LEGISLATORS, WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION, AND I WOULD LIKE TO PUSH BACK ON MR. VAN DIVERS STATEMENT THAT IT WAS JUST A BAD CHOICE.

IF YOU READ SHEPHERD'S DECISION, THERE'S NO CONTEST TO THE FACT THAT NOT SUBMITTING THIS TO THE VOTERS TO APPROVE PUBLIC MONEY GOING FOR PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

AND IT'S VERY SPECIFIC ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW HE GOES THROUGH AND TALKS ABOUT HOW CAN BE RAISED OR COLLECTED FOR EDUCATION OTHER THAN COMMON SCHOOLS UNLESS THE QUESTION OF TAXATION IS SUBMITTED TO THE LEGAL VOTERS.

SO TO JUST DISMISS THE UNCOLT OF BILL AND UNCONSTITUTION ALT OF THE BILL, AND IN ADDITION TO THAT THEY HAVEN'T RESOLVED IF WE ARE CONSTITUTIONAL ON SECTIONS 1, 171, 183 OR 186.

AND THEN I ALSO WANT TO TAKE US BACK -- >> BUT HE DIDN'T RULE ON ALL THOSE PARTS.

>> THEY DID NOT RULE BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION YET.

THEY DIDN'T SAY YES OR NO.

SO WE DON'T KNOW AT THIS POINT.

I WANT TO TAKE US BACK AGAIN TO THE ROSE DECISION FROM 1989.

AND AT THE HEART OF THE ROSE DECISION IS THAT EVERY CHILD, EVERY CHILD IN THE COMMONWEALTH SHALL BE PROVIDED WITH AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION.

AND THAT MEANS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY AND ACCESS TO AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION FOR EVERY CHILD.

AND HERE WHAT WE HAVE IS PUBLICALLY AIDED PRIVATE EDUCATION FOR THE SELECT FEW THAT WILL THEN DISCRIMINATE AGAINST THE MANY.

>> AND THAT POINT WAS MADE BY CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERT STEVENS BACK IN THE 1989 ROSE DECISION, AND WE HAD A COMMENT THAT WAS SUBMITTED FROM PENNY CHRISTIAN WHO IS A FAYETTE COUNTY PARENT WHO SERVES WITH THE KENTUCKY COALITION FOR ADVANCING EDUCATION, AND SHE WROTE US TO SAY THE KENTUCKY LEGISLATURE HAS CONSISTENTLY REFUSE TODAY ABIDE BY THE RULING WHICH MANDATED EQUITABLE AND IF YOU WILL FULLY FUND EDUCATION FOR EVERY CHILD.

ANY LEGISLATION FOR STATEWIDE SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT 1ST DESIGNED TO CIRCUMVENT EXPECTED PENDING LITIGATION BECAUSE AT ITS CORE THIS LAW DOUSE THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT IT CLAIMS.

IF THE IMPLICATIONS IS THAT UTILIZE ON OUR TAX DOLLARS TO USE MONEY IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS WHY NOT USE THE SAME RESOURCES TO FULL OFY FUND THOSE PRIVATE SCHOOLS YOU CLAIM ARE SO INFERIOR.

TO THAT POINT, SENATOR ALVARADO, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO MS. CHRISTIAN?

>> TAKE A LOOK AT HOW MUCH FUNDING THERE IS FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION RIGHT NOW FROM OUR STATE.

WOULD I SAY BETWEEN FEDERAL AND STATE FUNDING YOU'RE LINING AT ABOUT $8 BILLION FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY WHEN YOU COMBINE THEM BOTH.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS BETWEEN 25 AND 50 MILLION DOLLARSS WHICH NOT PUBLIC MONEY.

THIS IS PRIVATE MONEY.

THAT'S LIKE GIVING YOU $8,000, SOMEONE ELSE GIVES THIS PERSON $50, AND YOU'RE SAYING THAT $50 IS GOING TO RUIN ME EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE GOT AN $8,000.

THAT'S THE EQUIVALENT AS FAR AS RATIOS OF FUNDING.

YOU'VE SEEN INCREASED FUNDING STEADILY FROM THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

WE HAVE SEEN PROPOSED INCREASED FUNDING RIGHT NOW.

WE'VE SEEN PROPOSED FUNDING FOR FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN THAT'S BEEN ASKED FOR FORE A VERY LONG TIME.

AS TO THE ISSUE.

>> IT CAME DOWN THE ON HIS PIKE.

IS THE SENATE GOING TO ENDORSE THAT?

>> WE'RE TAKING A LOOK AT IT.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE MORE DELIBERATE IN WHAT WE'RE DOING.

IT'S GOING TO TAKE A FEW WEEKS TO SORT IT OUT.

BUT TAKING A LOOK AT ADEQUATE EDUCATION, WHO DETERMINES WHAT'S AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION?

I WOULD ARGUE THAT PERSONAL ARE PARENTS FOR THOSE CHILDREN.

OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE GREAT.

THEY DO A GREAT JOB.

I'VE GOT A GREAT SYSTEM OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN MY DISTRICT.

VERY PROUD U.

THINK GO GREAT WORK.

THE THEY RANK VERY HIGH.

THEY DO WONDERFUL.

MOST PARENTS SAY, THIS IS A GREAT EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY, BUT IT'S NOT FOR EVERY PARENT, AND I THINK IT SHOULD BE UP TO THAT PARENT, THIS ISN'T WORKING FOR MY CHILD.

I WANT A DIFFERENT OPTION, TO GIVE THEM THAT OPTION.

SOME PEOPLE CAN DO THAT.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE THAT OPTION, BUT NOT EVERYBODY DOES.

AND WE TALK ABOUT EQUITY AND THAT SORT OF STUFF.

WE TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT IT DOES EVEN FOR PEOPLE WITHIN A RACIAL CONTEXT, THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO DON'T HAVE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES YOU CAN TO GO LOUISVILLE AND HAVE A GREAT PERFORMING HIGH SCHOOL RIGHT DOWN THE ROAD DIFFERENT COMPOSITION OF STUDENTS FROM A CERTAIN RACE DON'T DO VERY WELL AND DON'T HAVE THOSE SAME OPPORTUNITIES BASED ON WHERE THEY LIVE AND ON THAT ZIP CODE, AND I THINK WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GIVE THEM THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES.

>> SO ONE OF THE CRITICISMS OF OF ON HIS BILL 5EY THAT WAS TRUCK STRUCK DOWN, AND I WANT TO ASK YOU, SENATOR ALVARADO, IF YOUR SB 50 DOES ADD PROVISIONS.

THIS QUESTION FROM WOLFE COUNTY.

DOES THE BIFFLE PREVENT MEASURES IN PLACE THAT WILL ENSURE NO SCHOOL IS ABLE TO DENY A STUDENT ADMITTED ANSWER BASED OFF THEIR IDENTITY OR BACKGROUND IN THIS PERSON WORRIES THAT STATE TAX DOLLARS WILL BE FUNNELED INTO SCHOOLS ARE DISCRIMINATING AGAINST MARGINALIZED STUDENTS OR STUDENTS WERE LEARNING CHALLENGES OR STUDENTS WITH BEHAVIORAL PROBLEMS OR MINORITY STUDENTS.

IS THERE A GUARANTEE IN SB 50 THAT ALL STUDENTS WILL BE SERVED AND NOT CHER-PICKED?

>> I DON'T THINK -- FIRST OF ALL, WE TAKE A LOOK AT STUDIES THAT HAVE BEEN DONE.

, THOUGH, I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING SPECIFICALLY SAYING YOU CANNOT DENY SOMEONE.

THAT'S ALREADY UNDERSTOOD.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A LOT OF SCHOOLS THAT SERVE CHILDREN WITH DISABILITIES.

THERE ARE SCHOOLS THAT ARE DEDICATED TO KIDS WITH AUTISM WHERE PARENTS MIGHT SAY, I'D LIKE TO SEND MY CHILD TO THAT SCHOOL BUT I CAN'T AFFORD THE EXPENSE AND I'D LIKE FOR THEM TO GO THERE, AND IF THIS WOULD BE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM THEY COULD USE IT FOR THAT PURPOSE.

SO CURRENTLY I THINK THERE'S BEEN AT LEAST -- AND I'VE GOT HERE TEN STUDIES THAT HAVE EXAMINED THE IMPACT OF SCHOOL CHOICE ON RACIAL SEGREGATION THAT HAVE BEEN OUT THERE.

NINE HAVE FOUND THAT SCHOOL CHOICE PROGRAMS MOVES STUDENTS INTO LESS SEGREGATED SCHOOLS, AND ONE FOUND THERE WAS NO NET EFFECT ON RACIAL SEGREGATION IF THE NONE OF THEM FOUND THAT SCHOOL CHOICE PROGRAMS INCREASE SCHOOL SEGREGATION.

IF ANYTHING IT WILL GIVES THOSE CHILDREN MORE OF AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THIS.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON THAT, IF I MAY.

>> SURE.

>> ON HOUSE BILL 563, 51 MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE VOTED AGAINST AN AMENDMENT THAT WOULD DECLARE THE THAT SCHOOLS COULD NOT DISCRIMINATE BASED ON RACE, CREED, COLOR, ETHNICITY, NATIONALITY, DISABILITY, AGE, SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR GENDER IDENTITY.

AND THAT IS ALSO NOT IN HOUSE BILL 305.

AND I'M ASSUMING NOT IN -- >> SENATE BILL 50.

>> >> THE OTHER BILL AS WELL.

HERE'S WHAT THE PROBLEM IS.

THE PROBLEM IS, IS THAT THESE PROGRAMS WILL, BY DESIGN, DISCRIMINATE.

THEY WILL SELECT STUDENTS THAT THEY WANT TO SELECT.

SO, WEK I HAVE -- I KNOW SOMEONE WHO HAS A CHILD WITH A DISABILITY.

THEY WANTED THAT CHILD TO ATTEND A CHRISTIAN SCHOOL.

THEY WERE TOLD THAT THERE WAS NO ROOM, THERE WAS NO STAFF FOR THAT CHILD, SO THE PARENT SAID, OKAY, WE'LL PAY FOR AN ASSISTANT.

NO, YOU CAN'T DO THAT.

AND THEN I HAVE ANOTHER FRIEND WHO I BUMPED INTO AT TARGET LAST WEEKEND.

WE WERE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, OH, I SEE THAT YOU HAVE GRANDCHILDREN, YOU KNOW, AND SHE SAID, DID YOU KNOW MY DAUGHTER'S MARRIED TO A WOMAN?

AND I THOUGHT, THESE GRANDCHILDREN, BECAUSE THEY FAITH-BASED SCHOOL DOES NOT APPROVE OF SAME-SEX MAJORS WILL NOT LET THESE CHILDREN ADD I HAD THE DANCE.

>> THE EXCUSE, THE NON-PUBLIC SCHOOLS KENTUCKY ARE THERE TO SERVE STUDENTS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE IMPACTS OF THOSE PROGRAMS, IT'S POSITIVE WHEN YOU LOOK A STATES LIKE INDIANA, ROUGHLY 20% OF THE POPULATION IN INDIANA STUDENT POPULATION IS NON-WHITE BUT 40% OF STUDENTS HOE PARTICIPATE IN THOSE PROGRAMS ARE NON-WHITE AND FLORIDA, A MUCH MORE DIVERSE STATE THAN KENTUCKY BUT IT'S 70% HISPANICS AND BLACK STUDENT PARTICIPATE FROM THOSE PROGRAMS.

WHETHER YOU LOOK AT EQUITABLE SCHOOLS IT'S MADE OUT THAT PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE UNFRIENDLY, PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE FRIENDLY AND THAT'S THE GOSPEL TRUTH, BUT THE REALITY IS THERE IS A GROUP, THE GAYE, LESBIAN AND STRAIGHT EDUCATION NETWORK THAT LOOKED AT STUDENT OPINIONS.

HOW IS THE STUDENT PERCEPTION OF THE FRIENDLIEST OF THEI ENVIRONMENT, BULLYING, WHETHER PEOPLE ARE USING HOMOPHOBIC EPI TASTES AND THINGS AND THE STUDENT SUR SURVEY FOUND THAT PRIVATE SCHOOLS HAVE A FRIEND LER ENVIRONMENT OVERALL THAN PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SO IT'S ONE THING TO HAVE A POLICY THAT SAYS WE'RE WELCOMING TO EVERYONE BUT THAT MAY NOT BE THE AMOUNT OF FOR STUDENTS.

NOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT DIFFERENT TYPES OF SCHOOLS, PARENTS ARE GOING TO HAVE DIFFERENT VALUES, THEY'RE GOING TO WANT DIFFERENT THINGS, AND I THINK ONCE A STUDENT'S IN THE SCHOOL, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO -- YOU WANT TO CREATE A SAFE AND WELCOMING ENVIRONMENT FORE STUDENTS.

YOU WANT TO STRIVE TO DO THAT BUT THAT'S NOT ALWAYS TRUE.

I'LL TELL THE STORY LAST YEAR.

THERE WAS A YOUNG MAN IN FLORIDA NAMED ELIJAH WHO WAS A GAY STUDENT WHO GOES BASS WAG BEING BULLIED SEVERELY IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL TO THE POINT THAT HE ALMOST COMMITTED SUICIDE, AND HIS MOM SAID THE ADMINISTRATION'S NOT DOING ENOUGH.

I'M PULLING HIM OUT OF SCHOOL AND I'M GOING TO PUT HIM IN THE SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT PROGRAM SO HE CAN GO, AND HE WENT TO A CHRISTIAN SCHOOL THAT APPARENTLY HE WAS THRIVING IN.

YOU SEE HIM INTERVIEWED.

HE'S VERY HAPPY.

SO THOSE STUDENTS WE'RE FIGHTING FOR.

WE'RE FIGHTING FOR PARENTS BECAUSE WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THE STUDENTS AND THEIR WELL-BEING WHO IS GOING TO KNOW THAT BEST THAN THE PARENTS, EMPOWER THE PARENTS AND THEY'RE GOING TO GO TO A PLEASE THAT'S GOING THE WORK FOR THEM.

>> YOU'RE WATCHING KENTUCKY TONIGHT.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EDUCATION COMMUNITY ACCOUNT,ETS.

I WANT YOU TO RESPOND RESPONDS TO JIM SHORE IN NEWPORT.

HE SAID I READ IN WASHINGTON POST THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE LOSING STUDENTS TO HOMESCHOOLING AND NON-PUBLIX SCHOOLS BECAUSE CHALLENGES FACING PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

WHY NOT ALLOW THE SCHOOL CHOICE LEGISLATION TO GO THROUGH?

>> SO I WANT TO MAKE A POINT.

WE HAVE SCHOOL CHOICE HERE IN KENTUCKY ALREADY.

PARENTS CAN CHOOSE TO SEND THEIR STUDENT, THEIR CHILD WHEREVER THEY WANT.

YOU KNOW, THE BIG QUESTION HERE SENIOR WE USING PUBLIC TAX DOLLARS TO FUND THAT.

CORPORATIONS, INDIVIDUAL CAN DETAIN TO THESE PRIVATE SCHOOLS RIGHT NOW.

THESE PRIVATE SCHOOLS CAN OFFER ALL OF THE SCHOLARSHIPS THEY WANT.

TO HELP SUPPORT STUDENTS IN THOSE.

THESE BILLS DON'T HELP THE MAJORITY OF STUDENTS IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

90% OF THE CHILDREN IN KENTUCKY ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

60% OF THE COUNTIES MOSTLY RURAL COUNTIES, DON'T EVEN HAVE A NON-PUBLIC SCHOOL OPTION.

SO IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A VIABLE OPTION FOR THESE -- >> LET ME PUT A PIN IN THAT.

563 DID ALLOW FOR THECH BORDERS FOR STUDENTS TO BE ABLE TO GO TO SCHOOLS OUTSIDE OF THEIR DISTRICT.

DOES SB 50 ALLOW FOR THAT?

>> YES, IT DOES.

>> SO IT WOULD APPLY TO PRIVATE AND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

>> PUBLIC SCHOOLS, ABSOLUTELY.

SO AGAIN IT'S PART OF THE CHOICE OPTION.

AGAIN, THE LEGISLATION ALLOWS FOR THESE FUNDS TO BE USED FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION AS WELL, AND I'VE TALKED TO MY LOCAL SCHOOL DISTRICT SAYING YOU OUGHT TO CONSIDER OPENING THIS UP TO HELP FUND YOUR PRE-K PROGRAMS.

THERE'S FOUR STATES IN UNION THAT USE THIS TO FULLY FUND PRE-KINDERGARTEN IN THEIR STATES.

THIS CAN BE USED BY PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO HELP WITH TEXTBOOKS, TECHNOLOGY, TUTORING STUDENTS, LOTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS IT CAN BE USED FOR.

IT CAN USED FOR PUBLIC AND PRIVATE EDUCATION.

>> I WANT TO ASK MR. CAMPBELL BECAUSE YOU TALKED EARLIER ABOUT THE SUPPORT SERVICES THAT HAVE BEEN DIMINISHED BY THE STATE INNINGS 2008.

GIVEN WHAT SENATOR AVERAGED JUST SAID, THAT WOULD BE COULD BE USED FOR TO HIS SUPPORT SERVICES, TEXTBOOKS, TUTORING AND THE LIKE.

>> TEXTBOOKS, TUTORING ALL THOSE SUPPORT SERVICES PROVIDED BY PUBLIC SCHOOLS FOR FREE.

EVERY STUDENT THAT COMES INTO A PUBLIC SCHOOL HAVE THOSE SERVICED EVER SERVICES PROVIDED TO THEM.

THEIR TEXTBOOKS ARE PROVIDED, ANY TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY NEED IS PROVIDED.

IF THEY NEED INDIVIDUAL EDUCATIONAL SUPPORTS, EACH STUDENT HAS AN INDIVIDUAL LEARNING PLAN TO MEET THE NEEDS OF THEIR STUDENTS.

THERE IS A PROCESS BY WHICH THAT CAN HAPPEN AT OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THE PROBLEM IS WE HAVE UNDERFUND OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS FOR SO LONG THAT AND THEY'VE BEEN WORKING ON A SHOESTRING BUDGET THAT THEY'VE HAD TO CUT SERVICES OR PULL BACK ON SERVICES.

THEY'RE NOT PROVIDING ART AND MUSIC AND ALL THOSE OTHER PROGRAMS THAT HELP TO ENRICH THE STUDENTS THAT ARE GOING TO OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

SO WHY ARE WE NOT FOCUSING ON MAKING SURE WE'RE REALLY PROVIDING A MANY AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION BY PROVIDING THE FUNDING TO OUR UNDERFUNDED PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY?

WE'RE NOT DOING THAT RIGHT NOW.

AND WHEN YOU ADJUST FOR INFLATION, LIKE REPRESENTATIVE BOJANOWSKY SAID, WE ARE ACTUALLY ALMOST BACK WHERE WE WERE IN TERMS OF FUNDING BEFORE THE ROSE DECISION.

>> SO THIS COMMENT FROM JOEL WOLFORD AND THIS IS TO SENATOR ALVARADO AND HE SAYS, "IF SENATOR ALVARADO WANTS TO MAKE PRIVATE SCHOOLS MORE AFFORDABLE, WHY NOT FILE BILLS TO INCREASE WAGES BEGINNING WITH A MIDGE THAT LIFTS KENTUCKY HAVE ANSWERED OUT OF POVERTY?"

WOULD I SUPPORT THAT IF THIS IS ABOUT PROVIDING AN EQUITABLE SITUATION.

WOULD YOU SUPPORT A WAGE HIKE IN THE MINIMUM WAGE IN ORDER GET FAMILIES TO THE -- >> I DON'T THINK WE NEED TO.

I THINK WE'RE SEEING WAGES INCREASE THE OTHER OWN.

FEW TAKE A LOOK AT WHO YOU WANT TO HIRE FOLKS IT'S GOING TO BE HARD TO HIRE SOMEONE WITH THE MINIMUM WAGE WHAT IT IS.

I THINK THE MARKET IS TAKING CARE OF THAT.

YOU KNOW WITH THE INFLATION INCREASE WE'VE SEEN UNDER THE BRYANT ADMINISTRATION IT'S BEEN VERY TOUGH FOR WORKING FAMILIES IN THE STATE RIGHT NOW.

I THINK WE'RE TAKING A LOOK AT TAX REFORM IN IN STATE FOR EVERYONE WHO HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE MORE MONEY IN THEIR POCKET SO WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO GET THAT DONE THROUGH TAX POLICY.

TO INCREASE THE MINIMUM WAGE, SOMEONE IS GETTING HIRED A $7 OR $8, YOU'RE DID NOT GOING TO GET ANYBODY HIRED THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

I THINK THE FREE MARKET IS TAKING CARE OF A LOT OF THAT RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE HOPING TO TAKE MONEY FROM PRIVATE INDIVIDUALS WHO CANNOT AFFORD THIS.

WHAT THIS BILL SUS DID TAKES PEOPLE FROM MONEY PRIVATELY.

, PUTTING IT INTO A PRIVATE FUND.

>> BUT IT DOES AFFECT THE STATE COFFERS, THOUGH, BECAUSE IT'S DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR, AND S. THE MONEY THAT THE TAX CREDIT IS ACTUALLY PART OF THEIR TAV LIABILITY.

THEY CAN DEDUCT THE AMOUNT FROM YOU ARE THEIR TAX IT WILL LIABILITY SO IT DOESN'T BACK TO THE STATE.

>> ARE THERE PLENTY OF TAX CREDITS.

LOTS OF THEM.

I HAVE SEVERAL LIVED WITH HOUSING TAX 1 VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER TAX CREDITS.

ALL OF THOSE TAX CREDITS THAT ARE BEING PROPOSED FOR VARIOUS THE TO SAY IT COMES FROM THE FUNDING FOR SCHOOL IS UNTRUE.

>> IF I COULD SAY YES, I DO HAVE A TAX CREDIT BILL AND THAT BILL WOULD PROVIDE TEACHERS WITH A $250 TAX CREDIT FOR MATERIALS THEY SPEND OUT OF POCKET.

THIS IS SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

THIS I COULD ALMOST CALL A VOUCHER TAX SHELTER BECAUSE CORPORATIONS CAN DETAIN OR WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS UP TO $1 MILLION, AND ALMOST GET A ONE-FOR-ONE CREDIT FOR THAT MONEY, SO WHEN YOU DO A CHARITABLE DONATION, WHAT DO YOU GET?

A PERCENTAGE.

RIGHT?

NOT ONE-TO-ONE.

AND THEN IF THE TYPE OF DONATION THEY MAKE IS A MARKETABLE SECURITY, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY A CAPITAL GAINS TAX ON THAT.

SO A CORPORATION COULD ESSENTIALLY MAKE MONEY FROM RUNNING THEIR MONEY THROUGH THIS TAX PROCEDURE.

THE FUNDING FOR THE PROGRAM IS 100% RAISED BECAUSE THE STATE LEVIES INCOME TAX.

THAT FUNDING IS COMPLETELY DEPENDENT ON THE COERCIVE POWER OF THE STATE TO COLLECT THE TAX.

THIS LEGISLATION IS SIMPLY ALLOWS THE FAVORITE GROUP OF TAXPAYERS TO REFLECT THE INCOME TAXES THAT THEY OWE TO PRIVATE AGOs AND THEN THAT WOULD ELIMINATE THEIR TAX LIABILITY.

I AGREE THAT THIS DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY TAKE MONEY FROM THE EDUCATION PART OF THE BJ BUDGET, BUT IT DOES REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT POTENTIALLY COULD BE IN THE GENERAL FUND.

AND HERE'S THE PROBLEM, AND IT BECOMES A SLIPPERY SLOPE.

WE STARTED WITH $25 MILLION IN THE BILL LAST YEAR.

SENATOR ALVARADO HAS $50 MILLION.

REPRESENTATIVE CALLOWAY'S BILL IN THE HOUSE HAS $100 MILLION.

WHAT HAPPENS IN OTHER STATES IS THIS MONEY GETS LARGER AND LARGER AND LARGER TO THE POINTWHERE WHERE OVER TIME APPROXIMATELY $1 BILLION HAS GONE THROUGH THE FLORIDA TAX CREDIT PROGRAM.

AND OUT OF THAT MONEY WE'RE TAKING 10% OF IT FOR ADMINISTRATIVE.

EVEN JUST FROM AN ECONOMIES OF SCALE, DO WE WANT TO HAVE A COMPLETELY SPRATT SEPARATE SYSTEM THAT HAS EXTENSIVE ADMINISTRATIVE COSTS TO ALLOW CORPORATIONS TO POTENTIALLY MAKE MONEY OFF OF FILTERING THEIR MONEY THROUGH THESE TAX CREDITS AND THEN PUT IT INTO ORGANIZATIONS OVER WHICH WE DON'T HAVE ANY ACCOUNTABILITY MEASURES FROM THEM, WE DON'T HAVE ANY JURISDICTION, WE DO NOT -- WE CAN'T RESTRICT THEIR -- >> SO TO THAT POINT, SO THIS QUESTION FROM SCOTT COUNTY.

I WON'T READ THE ENTIRE QUESTION BUT PART OF WHAT THIS PERSON ASKED IS HOW WILL YOU ENSURE ALL CHILDREN, INCLUDING THOSE WITH SPECIAL NEEDS, GET EDUCATED?

WE ANSWER THAT HAD A LITTLE BIT BEFORE BUT YOU CAN EX POINTED IF YOU'D LIKE.

BUT THE BIGGY IS Q.Y IS HOW WILL YOU ENSURE EDUCATIONAL PROGRESS AND FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY?

IS THIS MEANT TO BE A TAX SHELTER FOR BIG CORPORATIONS AND WEALTHY SPREADS?

>> THE FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY A GREAT QUESTION.

REPRESENTATIVE BOJANOWSKY TALKS ABOUT THE NEED FOR A TAX CREDIT FOR TEACHER EXPENSES FOR CLASSROOM EXPENSES THAT TEACHER HAVE TO PAY OUT OF POCKET.

HOW IN THE WORLD DO WE HAVE AN $8 BILLION EDUCATION BUDGET, $14,000 PER CHILD AND TEACHERS ARE HAVING TO PAY OUT OF THEIR POCKETS FOR CLASSROOM SUPPLIES?

YOU TALK ABOUT ADMINISTRATIVE ACCOUNTABILITY, HOW IN THE WORLD DOES THAT HAPPEN?

AND WITH THIS PROGRAM, THIS IS NOT MONEY THAT'S JUST $25 MILLION OR $50 MILLION, WHATEVER THE PROGRAM END UP BEING, THAT'S JUST TAKING -- THIS IS MONEY, 90% OF WHICH IS GOING TO GO TO STUDENTS, DIRECTLY TO STUDENTS.

CAN WE SAY THAT FOR OUR CURRENT EDUCATION SYSTEM THAT WITH EVERY DOLLAR I PAY IN TAXES, 90% IS GOING TO STUDENTS?

NO WAY.

THERE MUST BE SOMETHING HAPPEN BETWEEN $8 BILLION WE SPEND AND IT REACHING THE CLASSROOM WHEN TEACHERS ARE HAVING TO PULL INTO THEIR OWN POCKETS TO BUY CLASSROOM SUPPLIES.

NOW, REPRESENTATIVE BOJANOWSKY YOU CYTES FLORIDA AS IF IT'S SOMEONE CARRY WHEN FLORIDA IS RANKED NUMBER THREE IN THE COUNTRY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE EDUCATIONAL QUALITY ACCOUNTS ASSESSMENT, WU WHEN YOU LOOK PA NAPE SCORES, IMPROVEMENTS THAT.

>> SO WHILE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR THAT, NIMA BREWER FROM FAYETTE COUNTY ASKS THIS QUESTION.

HOW DO WE KNOW IF PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE DOING BETTER THAN PUBLIC SCHOOLS IF PRIVATE SCHOOLS AREN'T HELD TO THE SAME TESTING STANDARDS ADDS PUBLIC ONES, IF PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE NOT REQUIRED TO TEACH ALL KIDS?

>> WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR IS FLORIDA WAS RANKED AT THE BOTTOM OF THE COUNTRY IN THE LATE '90S BEFORE THEY HAD SCHOOL CHOICE.

2009 THEY ARE RANKED SEVENTH ACCORDING TO THE EDUCATION WEEK QUALITY COUNTS, AND THEN 2021 THEY ARE RANKED THIRD IN THE COUNTRY.

SO THE INVESTMENT THAT THEY'RE MAKING THROUGH THE SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT PROGRAM IS A GOOD ONE BECAUSE THE STUDENTS ARE PARTICIPATING, ARE ACTUALLY SEEING LONG-TERM OUTCOMES SUCH AS HIGHER COLLEGE ATTENDANCE, HIGHER COLLEGE GRADUATION, AND THESE ARE LOW-INCOME STUDENTS WHO ARE SEEING THESE OUTCOMES, AND YOU'RE ALSO SEEING PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAT ARE AMONG THE BEST IN THE COUNTRY, SO IT'S NOT AN EITHER/OR.

YOU CAN DO BOTH SCHOOL CHOICE AND HAVE HIGH QUALITY PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

>> SENATOR ALVARADO.

>> IT'S NOT JUST FLORIDA.

YOU'VE GOT PLACES LIKE CHICAGO, WASHINGTON, DC, MILWAUKEE, NEW YORK CITY.

THEY HAVE THESE TYPES OF PROGRAMS AND ALL OF THEM SHOW IMPROVEMENT FORE ALL KIDS ACROSS THE BOARD NOT ONLY NON-PUBLIC BUT ALSO THOSE IN THE PUBLIC SYSTEM.

ALL THOSE SCORES IMPROVED APPLYINGEN TO THIS TO IT'S ALWAYS INTERESTING I WONDER IF THIS WILL WORK IN KENTUCKY.

THAT'S LOOK A BOULEVARD MANY BLOOD PRESSURE MEDICATION.

I'M A DOCTOR.

IF YOU HAVE A BLOOD PRESSURE MEDICATION THAT HAS COME UP THAT'S BRAND NEW, YOU MIGHT HAVE SOME DOCTOR SAY, WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF I WANT TIGHTS FOR MY PATIENTS.

I'M NOT CERTAIN CERTAIN.

I WANT TO SEE WHO IT WORKS BEFORE I PUT NIGHT PLACE.

YOU'VE GOT DECADES OF DATA, 45 STATES THAT ARE DOING THINGS SIMILAR TO THIS AND IT'S BEEN SHOWN TO WORK EVERYWHERE IT GOES.

THE 23 YOU'RE SAY THE SAFETY HAS BEEN PROVEN AND EVERYTHING HAS IMPROVED IN TERMS OF STUDENTS ALL ACROSS THE BOARD, ON TO SAY THAT IT DOESN'T WORK IS DISINGENUOUS.

WE'VE GOT ALL KINDS OF PROOF.

THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN WITH BIPARTISAN ADMINISTRATIONS 37 ACROSS THE BOARD.

PULLING TO MILWAUKEE, I HAVE HAD A CHANCE TO GO TO THAT CITY, HEAR ABOUT THEIR PROGRAMS, TREMENDOUS IMPROVEMENTS.

THIS IS SOMETHING SUPPORTED BY BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

IT'S SUPPORTED BY PARENTS ACROSS THE BOARD.

>> AND WHY DO WE SEE THESE PROGRAMS INCREASE IN FUNDING?

IT'S BECAUSE THEIR POPULAR.

IT'S BECAUSE PARENTS ARE DEMANDING THEM.

AND THE OTHER SIDE WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE THAT WE CAN'T TRUST PARENTS, THAT PARENTS, THEIR PREFERENCES BE SHOULDN'T MATTER.

WE CAN PUT EVERYONE INTO A ONE SIZE FITS ALL SOLUTION.

THAT'S THE YES I WANT TO PUT TO THIS SIDE, DO YOU TRUST PARENTS?

>> I WANT TO BRING US BACK BECAUSE I THINK THESE THAT'S A RIDICULOUS QUESTION.

I THINK THAT PARENTS WILL MAKE THE BEST DECISION FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

BUT I WANT TO BRINGS BACK TO OUR CONSTITUTION.

>> SO IF THEY GET SCHOOL CHOICE, THEY'LL MAKE THE BEST CHOICE.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO OUR CONSTITUTION, AND, YOU KNOW, IN OUR CONSTITUTION EDUCATION IS A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT.

THE STATE CANNOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST STUDENTS.

WE CANNOT -- IN OUR CONSTITUTION WE CANNOT PROVIDE AID TO PRESERVATIVE SCHOOLS.

IF THE STATE RAISES ANY SUM OF MONEY FOR EDUCATION THAT GOES OUTSIDE THE COMMON SCHOOLS, IT NEEDS VOTER APPROVAL.

AND IF THE STATE DELEGATES EDUCATION DUTY, IT MUST BE STRICTLY MONITORED BY THE STATE.

AND THEN WITH THIS ONE SIMPLE TRICK OF CREATING THESE VOUCHER TAX CREDITS WITHOUT ONE SIMPLE TRICK, WE ERASE THE KENTUCKY CONSTITUTION'S REQUIREMENTS.

OUR CONSTITUTION IS STRONGER FOR EDUCATION, FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION, FOR COMMON EDUCATION THAN MANY OF THESE OTHER STATES.

THIS IS WHY IN ILLINOIS THEY'VE NEVER HAD A ROSE DECISION BECAUSE IT DOES NOT DECLARE THAT EDUCATION IS A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT IN ILLINOIS.

PLEASE DON'T INTERRUPT ME.

>> I THOUGHT YOU WERE FINISHED.

I THOUGHT YOU WERE FINISHED.

I APOLOGIZE.

>> SO WHAT I AM SAYING IS WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO OUR CONSTITUTION.

WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE ROSE DECISION.

WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE FACT THAT EVERY CHILD IN THE COMMONWEALTH MUST BE PROVIDED WITH EQUAL OPPORTUNITY AND AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION.

AND IF SO MANY CHILDREN ARE NOT HAVING AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION, THEN WE NEED TO REVISIT IT AS A GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND BY LAW WE, AS A GENERAL ASSEMBLY, MUST FUND IT.

>> SO LET ME GO BACK -- >> THIS IS IMPORTANT.

>> BUT CAN I ASK A QUESTION AS THE MODERATOR OF THE PROGRAM?

>> SURE.

>> PLET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE ELIGIBILITY OF -- BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T REALLY GOTTEN TO THE NIT I GRITTY OF THIS.

I UNDERSTAND THAT SENATE BILL 50 WOULD INCREASE THE THRESHOLD TO 200% OF REDUCED MILL ELIGIBILITY MAKING 70% OF KENTUCKY CHILDREN ELIGIBLE.

200% OF THE FEDERAL POVERTY LINE IS $170,000.

FAMILY OF FOUR.

HOUSE BILL 305, $21,175 FOR A FOAM OF TO YOU.

SO 'EM PEOPLE WOULD SAY THIS IS NOT FOR POOR KIDS, NOT FOR POOR MARGINAL I'D KIDS IN THEES WEST END OF LOUISVILLE.

THIS IS FOR UPPER MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES AND THERE'S ANOTHER AGENDA HERE A STAKE.

SO TO THAT CRITICISM BEFORE YOU LAUNCH INTO YOUR OTHER DIATRIBE PLEASE ANSWER.

>> EYES IT'S NOT AS DIATRIB.

I DO HAVE SERIOUS ANSWERS ON THE CONSTITUTION BOUGHT I DO HAVE A QUESTION FOR THAT ONE TOO.

175%, WE'RE GOING TO HELP FUNDS.

SENATOR ALVARADO'S BILL INCREASES TO IT 200% ABOVE REDUCED LUNCH.

REPRESENTATIVE CALLOWAY'S BILL IS 250%.

ONE THING TO KEEP IN MIND, 50% OF THE STUDENTS UNDER THIS PROGRAM HAVE TO BE BELOW LUNCH, AND WITHIN THAT RANGE THOSE STUDENTS OF ARE PRIORITIZED WITH THE HIGHEST NEEDS.

ONCE YOU GO ABOVE THAT THRESHOLD YOU CAN GO TO HIGHER INCOME STUDENTS BUT IT'S MEANS TESTED.

THE HIGHER INCOME YOU MAKE, THE LESS YOU CAN RECEIVE.

THE IDEA THAT THIS IS FOR RICH FAMILIES, AND I KNOW SOME FOLKS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TABLE HAVE SAID THAT IT'S UNTRUE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER, AVERAGE SCHOOL TEACHER SALARY IS 5F.

$4,000 A YEAR FOR THE STATE AND YOU LOOK AT JEFFERSON COUNTY IT'S $64,000 A YEAR, SO UNDER THE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNT THAT WAS PASSED LAST YEAR, THOSE 15 FAMILIES WOULD BE EXCLUDED BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE CONSIDERED TOO WEALTHY TO QUALIFY.

T. I THINK THE PROGRAM PASSED LAST YEAR IS A GOOD START BUT I THINK SENATOR A ALVARADO AND CALLOWAY ARE RIGHT THAT THESE FAMILIES WHO MAKE ABOVE 175% HAVE A FINANCIAL NEED, AND I GUESS I PUT IT TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE TABLE ARE PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS RICH?

BECAUSE THAT'S THE CLAIM THAT'S BEING MADE, THAT ANYBODY MAKES ABOVE THIS AMOUNT IS WEALTHY AND THAT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT STATE TROOPERS, TEACHERS, MIDDLE INCOME NAMES THAT HAVE A FINANCIAL NEED.

AS SENATOR ALVARADO SAID INFLAYS IS BAD.

COST OF LIVING IS HIGH EXPECTED SHOULDN'T BE SOMETHING PEOPLE HAVE TO TAKE OUT SECOND MORTGAGES AND LOANS AND THINGS LIKE THAT TO AFFORD A QUALITY EDUCATION.

I DO WANT TO BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION.

>> CAN I ASK E. ANOTHER QUESTION BEFORE YOU GET INTO THAT.

SO WHAT ARE THE QUALIFICATIONS FOR EDUCATORS IN THESE SCHOOLS?

ARE THEY CERTIFIED?

WHAT ARE THE QUALIFICATIONS AND HOW WOULD YOU ENSURE THAT THEY ARE ALSO RESPECTING ALL OF THE RULES OF DIVERSITY, THAT YOU HOPE THIS THEY WOULD UNDER THESE MEASURES?

>> I MEAN, TEACHERS CAN CHOOSE TO BE EXPERT IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

IT REALLY U.

IS UP TO THE PARENTS.

>> SO THEY MAY NOT BE AS QUALIFIED AS A PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATOR.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT IT'S REALLY UP TO THE PARENTS AND WHAT THEY THINK IS APPROPRIATE CRITERIA.

YOU CAN HAVE SOMEBODY THAT HAS A DEGREE IN ACCOUNTING TEACH ACCOUNTING.

THEY MAY NOT BE A CERTIFIED TEACHER BUT I TRUST SOMEBODY WITH 30 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN ACCOUNTING TO TEACH MY KIDS.

RALLY TRUST PARENTS.

THEY LOVE THEIR KIDS.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT THEIR CHILDREN THAT A CLASSROOM THAT THEY FEEL THEY'RE GETTING ADEQUATELY SERVED AND ONCE AGAIN DO WE FROM US PARENTS.

I THINK PARENTS ARE GOING TO DO THAT VETTING.

>> YOUR POINT?

>> ON THE CONSTITUTION, THE ONE THING WE KEEP GOING BACK TO IS REPRESENTATIVE BOJANOWSKY SAYS WE'VE GOT TO GO BACK TO ROSE.

WE'VE GOT TO GO BACK.

WE KEEP HEARING THAT.

I WAS A SMALL CHILD WHEN THE ROSE DECISION WAS MADE.

WHY DO WE KEEP LOOKING BACKWARDS?

WE'VE GOT TO LOOK FORWARD.

WE'VE GOT TO LOOK TO NEW SLUGS THAT ARE GOING TO HELP OUR CHILDREN DEET SUCCEED.

THE ROSE DECISION, FOR WHATEVER IT WAS, IT DOES NOT BAR EDUCATIONAL CHOICE.

THERE'S NOT REALLY ANYTHING DIFFERENT FROM THE STATES THAT HAVE CONSIDERED K.D.

THIS AS FAR AS THE CONSTITUTIONAL GO AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION IT SAYS NO THUMB SHALL BE RAISED, THAT IS REFERRING TO TAXING AND SPENDING DOLLARS.

THE STATE CAN'T TAX AND SPEND DOLLARS ON PRIVATE SCHOOLS BUT PUTTING TO IT A PUBLIC REFERENDUM.

THE IF YOU TOOK THAT LITERALLY, IF YOU SAID NO STUM CAN BE RAISED, THAT WOULD MAIN I CAN'T RAISE MONEY EVEN RIGHT.

NOR A PRIVATE SCHOOL BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

>> BUT IF YOU GO THROUGH THESE AGOs YOU CAN.

>> FOR A TAX CREDIT PROGRAM THAT'S COMPLETELY CONSTITUTION BECAUSE IT'S PRIVATE DOLLARS THAT'S BEING RAISE PD THE CONSTITUTION DOESN'T BAR PUBLIC FUNDING IT.

JUST MEANS YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PUBLIC REFERENDUM FOR A PUBLICALLY FUNDED VOUCHER PROGRAM.

THIS ISN'T A VOUCHER PROGRAM.

THIS IS A TAX CREDIT PROGRAM.

AND JUSTICE KENNEDY WHEN THIS ISSUE CAME BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT AND THE OTHER SIDE ARGUED, WELL, TAX CREDITS ARE PUBLIC DOLLARS, ADJUSTED KENNEDY SAID THAT THAT IDEA HAS NO BASIS IN MODERN LEGAL JURISPRUDENCE, NONE, AND HE'S RIGHT.

EVERY STATE THAT'S TAKEN THIS ISSUE UP HAS SAID THE TAX CREDITS ARE NOT STATE APPROPRIATIONS, AND THEY'RE RIGHT.

>> I'M GOING DO DISAGREE.

>> MR. CAMPBELL.

IF I CAN GET MR. CAMPBELL IN.

>> TAX CREDITS, TAX CREDITS ARE APPROVE THAT ARE OWED TO THE STATE THAT THE LEGISLATURE MAKES DECISIONS ON WHETHER OR NOT TO PROVIDE.

SO TAX CREDITS ARE THE FIRST DOLLARS THAT ARE PAID OUT OF GENERAL FUNDS FOR ALL OF OUR PUBLIC SERVICE.

SO ALL OF THE TAX CREDITS THAT HAVE BEEN PROPOSED OR TO BE PROPOSED ARE THE FIRST DOLLARS THAT ARE PAID OUT OF THE GENERAL FUN.

ANYTHING LEFTOVER IS WHAT WE USE TO FUND PUBLIC WORKS IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE A BIG PART OF THAT PUBLIC WORKS.

SO WHEN WE START GIVING AWAY LARGE SUMS OF MONEY AND DOING DOLLAR-FOR-DOLLAR TAX CREDITS, THAT'S REDUCING OUR GENERAL FUND, AND THE ABILITY OF GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO MEET ITS OBLIGATIONS TO FULLY OR TO ADEQUATELY FUND A SYSTEM OF COMMON SCHOOLS IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

>> SO THIS -- OKAY.

REPRESENTATIVE BOJANOWSKY, I'LL ASK YOU.

>> I TOTALLY LOST -- >> YOU THINK ABOUT IT.

WE'RE MOVING FAST TONIGHT.

I LIKE IT.

I LIKE IT.

SO THIS VIEWER FROM JEFFERSON COUNTY SENT IN THIS STATEMENT.

WHY CAN'T THE STATE ALLOW PORT AB SEEK FUNDING TIED TO STUDENT WHEN AN IDENTIFIED LEARNING DISABILITY THEY THEY CAN ATTEND A SCHOOL THAT WILL HELP THAT STUDENT BE SUCCESSFUL AND INDEPENDENT?

THE SEEK FUNDING IS ONLY PARTIAL OF WHAT IT COST TO EDUCATE STUDENTS WITH A LEARNING DIFFERENCE BUT IT WOULD BE A HUGE HELP FOR FAMILIES AND INSTITUTIONS THAT SERVE THEM AND PERHAPS MAKE IT TO BE FOR THAT STUDENT TO ATTEND A SCHOOL THAT IS DESIGNED TO MEET THEIR NEEDS.

I THINK THIS IS UP YOUR ALLEY.

>> WE CAN START WITH HOW MUCH DOES IT COST, AND GENERALLY AN INDEPENDENT SCHOOL FOR CHILDREN WITH LEARNING DIFFERENCES IS OFTEN MORE EXPENSIVE.

SO IF YOU LIVE IN JEFFERSON COUNTY, AND I BELIEVE OUR SEEK IS MAYBE $2,560 PER CHILD, AND THEN YOU GET AN ADD-ON SO THERE'S A SPECIFIC ADD-ON DEPENDING ON WHAT YOUR DISABILITY IS, BUT TUITION AT A SCHOOL FOR CHILDREN WITH LEARNING DIFFERENCES IN MIDDLETOWN, KENTUCKY IS ALMOST $19,000 A YEAR.

AND SO EVEN IF YOU WERE ABLE TO HAVE YOUR SEEK MONEY TRANSFER THAT IS APPROPRIATED, YOU KNOW, THAT IS DESIGNATED FOR YOUR CHILD, THERE IS NO WAY THAT IT WOULD MEET THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND WHAT TUITION IS.

AND THAT LEAD TO ONE -- TWO, ONE OF TWO OF THE SIGNIFICANT BARRIERS FOR THE LOWEST INCOME CHILDREN ON A SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT TYPE PROGRAM.

SO THERE ARE TWO AREAS WHERE OUR LOWEST INCOME CHILDREN STRUGGLE WITH THESE PROGRAMS AND OFTEN CANNOT PARTICIPATE, AND THAT IS PAYING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT A SCHOLARSHIP AMOUNT IS AND WHAT A TUITION AMOUNT IS, AND THEN THE SECOND PIECE IS OTHER EXPENSES SUCH AS TRANSPORTATION.

SO IN SOME CASES THE CHILDREN CAN'T AFFORD TO BE TAKEN TO THE SCHOOL :ALES.

ALES.

THE THIRD THING WHICH ISN'T FINANCIALLY BASED BUT DEFINITELY A BARRIER FOR MANY OF MY STUDENTS IS THAT THE PARENTS, THEY MAY BE DOING SEVERAL JOBS, THEY MAY JUST NOT HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE TIME OR THE ENERGY TO SIT DOWN AND DO THESE APPLICATIONS FOR THESE PROGRAMS, BUT MY KIDS, THE ONES WHO, WHEN IT'S MAY AND YOU SAY WHAT MIDDLE IS YOUR CHILD GOING TO WHEN YOU'RE IN FIFTH GRADE AND THEY'RE LIKE, I HAVE NO IDEA, THESE ARE THE PARENTS WHO AREN'T GOING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ANY OF THESE SPECIAL PROGRAMS BECAUSE THEY DON'T -- THEY AREN'T GOING TO DO THE RESEARCH AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO APPLY FOR PROGRAMS AND SO FORTH.

>> ARE YOU SELLING PARENTS SHORT, REPRESENTATIVE BOJANOWSKY?

>> I'M NOT IN THE LEAST BIT.

I'M TALKING ABOUT THE REALITY.

THE REALITY IS THAT A LOT OF PARENTS DO NOT GO THROUGH THE PROCESS OF EVEN APPLYING FOR MIDDLE SCHOOLS IN JEFFERDS COUNTY.

THEY JUST GO TO WHERE THE SCHOOL ASSIGNS THEM.

THEY MAY NOT -- THEY MAY NOT HAVE THE TIME.

THEY MIGHT BE WORKING THREE JOBS.

I MEAN, I DON'T CONSIDER IT A DISPARAGEMENT AGAINST PARENTS, BUT IT'S A REALITY.

AND THAT BARRIER ALSO MEANS THAT WE NEED TO APPROPRIATE ALL THE MONEY THAT POTENTIALLY COULD GO TOWARD PUBLIC EDUCATION FOR THE EDUCATION OF ALL OF OUR CHILDREN.

>> SO THE TRANSPORTATION ISSUE, BECAUSE THAT CAME UP WITH 563, IS THAT ADDRESSED IN SENATE BILL 50?

>> AS FAR AS TRANSPORTATION, NO, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE ANY MONEY AS FAR AS TRANSPORTATION IN THE BILL PER SE.

>> KENTUCKY DOES HAVE A SUBSIDY FOR PRIVATE SCHOOL TRANSPORTATION.

NOT ALL COUNTIES PARTICIPATE.

WE'D LOVE TO EXPAND THAT AND HAVE IT MOYER MORE STUDENTS AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE WOULD CERTAINLY ADVOCATE FOR.

563 DOES ALLOW SOME EXPENSES FOR TRANSPORTATION TO BE COVERED.

NAS AN ALLOWABLE EXPENSE AS WELL.

I THINK THE THING I JUST TAKE ISSUE WITH IS I THINK PARENTS MORE MOTIVATED.

KHEAA McNEARY HAS BEEN DOWN HERE BEFORE.

SHE'S SOMEBODY THAT DID NOT GET THE BEST EDUCATION GROWING UP AND SHE TALKS ABOUT THAT BUT SHE IS HIGHLY MOTIVATED FOR HER KIDS, AND SHE'S COME DOWN TO FRANKFORT, SHE'S MET WITH THE LEGISLATORS.

>> THAT'S BEEN ON THIS PROGRAM.

>> BEEN ON THIS PROGRAM.

ANY TOO MANY I CALL HER UP, YOU READY TO GO?

SHE'S READY TO GO.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PARENTS LIKE HER.

JUST BECAUSE SOME PARENTS MIGHT NOT PARTICIPATE, WHY NOT GIVE THOSE OTHER PARENTS AN OPPORTUNITY?

AND HOW DOES THAT HURT PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO GIVE THEM THAT OPPORTUNITY?

>> THAT DOES BRING UP A QUESTION ABOUT THE DEALING CAMPAIGN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO PERHAPS TO INFORM PARENTS OF THIS CHOICE AND MAYBE THE VIGORS OR NOT THAT IT WOULD REQUIRE FOR THEM TO GET THEIR CHILD IN A SCHOOL OF -- THAT WOULD PRODUCE BETTER OUTCOMES.

THAT IS GOING TO BE A CAMPAIGN THAT YOU ALL HAVE TO WORK ON.

>> WE WERE GEARED UP TO LAUNCH THAT GAIN CAMPAIGN BEFORE THE DECISION FROM JUDGE SHEPHERD AND UNFORTUNATE THE RIDICULOUS THING THAT YOU EVEN HEAR IS THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS GOT $140 MILLION MORE DOLLARS FOR 52-DAY KINDERGARTEN.

THAT'S GREAT AND THIS PERHAPS IS $25 MILLION.

INSTEAD OF GRATING THAT VICTORY A SMALL GROUP OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS GOT TOGETHER AND DECIDED TO TAKE 50 CENTS PER CHILD IN THEIR DISTRICT AND FUND A LAWSUIT CHALLENGING THIS PROGRAM.

SO AS WE WERE GETTING READY TO EDUCATION PARENTS WE HAVE SIX ORGANIZATIONS WHO HAD APPLIED TO BECOME ACCOUNT GRANTING ORGANIZATIONS WHO WERE READY.

WE HAD SCHOOLS TAKING UP THE STEPS TO EDUCATE THEIR FAMILIES WITH THIS PROGRAM.

>> WHO ARE THESE ACCOUNT GRABSING ORGANIZATIONS?

I MEAN, WHAT ARE SOME NAMES AND WHAT ARE THEIR BACKGROUNDS AND CREDITS IN.

>> I'LL NAME SOME OF THE ONES THAT I KNOW OF.

THE CHILDREN'S TUITION FUND IS ONE THAT'LL BE STATEWIDE.

THEY SERVE INDEPENDENT CHRISTIAN SCHOOLS BUT THEY ALSO SERVE SECULAR SCHOOLS.

THEY'RE GOING TO BE SERVING A JEWISH SCHOOL IN I WILL HAVE LOUISVILLE.

THEY'RE GOING TO BE STATEWIDE.

THIS CATHOLIC EDUCATION FOUNDATION CURRENTLY SERVICE 4,000 STUDENTS IN THE ARCH ARCHDIOCESE.

THE ALLIANCE FOR CATHOLIC EDUCATION IN NORTHERN KENTUCKY IS ANOTHER GREAT ORGANIZATION THAT SERVES A LOT OF KIDS.

THERE ARE SOME OTHER KIDS I WON'T NECESSARILY NAME BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW IF THEY WANT TO BE PUBLIC YET BUT THERE ARE SCHOOLS THAT ARE DOING LIKE THING DUAL EDUCATION CREDITS IN RUMOR AREAS THAT MAY NOT HAVE PRIVATE AS SOON AS EXPECT 7 OUT OF THE EIGHT COUNTIES DO HAVE PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

AND ORGANIZATIONS READY TO SERVE STATEWIDE.

THEY APPLIED.

UNFORTUNATELY, THIS DECISION MUD EVERYTHING ON HOLD BUT WE'RE READY TO INVEST.

THAT'S GOING TO BE OUR TOP PROPRIETOR IN 2022 ONCE THIS PROGRAM IS AVAILABLE TO EDUCATE PARENTS, GET THEM SIGNED UP FOR THIS PROGRAM.

>> REPRESENTATIVE BOJANOWSKY.

>> IF I COULD RESPOND ABOUT THE STATEMENT OF ABOUT WHY DO WE KEEP GOING BACK TO THE ROSE DECISION.

THERE'S THIS THING IN LAW CALLED PRECEDENT, AND IN THE ROSE DECISION THEY EVALUATED OUR CONSTITUTION.

AND SO IT'S NOT JUST GOING BACK TO SOMETHING THAT'S OLD.

IT'S A PRECEDENT.

IT IS A STATEMENT ABOUT THE CONSTITUTIONAL FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO PUBLIC EDUCATION IN KENTUCKY.

AND SO I DON'T DISMISS CONSTITUTIONAL PRECEDENTS EASILY.

I THINK THAT WE NEED TO READ.

IF YOU READ THE ROSE DECISION AND YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT THE INTENT WAS AND THE HOPE TO PROVIDE ALL OF THE STUDENTS AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY FOR AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION, AND ADEQUATE IS KIND OF A MINIMIZING SOUNDING WORD, BUT ADEQUATE IS -- RIGHT NOW WE HAVE EIGHT CAPACITIES, AND SO TO PROVIDE AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION, YOU WOULD PROVIDE THESE EIGHT CAPACITIES FOR OUR STUDENTS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT WE ADEQUATELY FUND OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS SO THAT THEY CAN GRANT OR TEACH OUR CHILDREN AND OFFER THEM THESE CAPACITIES SO THAT -- FOR ALL CHILDREN.

>> LET ME GET TO YOU SOME NITTY GRIT OAT POLITICS OF IN.

WE KNOW THAT THE BILL NARROWLY ESCAPED THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, BOTH IN TERMS OF WHEN IT WAS IPAD AND SENT TO THE GOVERNOR AND THEN WHEN YOU WERE OVERTRADING GOVERNOR'S VETO, AND I UNDERSTAND EVER UNDEREVER UNDERSTOOD IT BACK THEN THAT THE 911 COUNTIES THAT WERE CHOSEN BASED ON THEIR SIZE, POPULATION OF 90,000 OR MORE, THAT WAS MORE POLITICALLY PALATABLE TO THE RURAL LAWMAKERS.

SO NOW THAT YOU'RE GOING TO TAKE THIS STATEWIDE, SENATOR ALVARADO, AND THERE IS A COMPANION PIECE IN THE HOUSE, WHAT'S THE POLITICAL APPETITE TO TAKE IT EVEN BROADER THAN WHAT YOU PASSED THE FIRST TIME BY RAZOR THIN?

>> WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT WE'VE GOT A LOT OF COSPONSORS THAT ARE READY TO JUMP ONTO THESE BILLS IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE 237 I THINK AGAIN WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS HAS CHANGED THE DYNAMIC IN THE STATE OF WHAT PARENTS ARE ASKING FOR.

WHAT YOUR HEARING ON ONE SIDE IS ABOUT FUNDING SYSTEMS.

I'M ABOUT FUNDING STUDENTS.

THE PARENT WHO TALKED ABOUT A.

MONEY FOOLS THE STUDENT.

I'VE GOT.

-- MONEY FOLLOWS THE STUDENT MOST PARENT WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOMETHING HAPPEN.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT'S POPULAR.

I THINK FAMILIES SHOULD MAKE THE DECISION ABOUT CHERRY THINNER WHAT BE WHERE SHOULD EXPECT EVERYTHING SHOULD TO GO SCHOOL INSTEAD OF SAYING, WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR, YOU YOU MIGHT NOT BE BRIGHT ENOUGH TO FILL OUT THESE FORMS.

WE'VE HEARD THAT.

I THINK WE NEED PARENTS WITH AN THAT.

I THINK A LOT OF OUR RURAL COMMUNITIES ARE MORE VOCAL THAN EVER BEFORE.

A LOT OF OUR URBAN COMMUNITIES ARE MORE VOCAL, AND THAY A LOT OF OUR LEGISLATORS ARE HEARING THAT MEANINGS LOUD AND CLEAR.

>> MR. CAMPBELL, I'LL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD IN 45, 50 SECOND.

>> I WANT TO ADDRESS WE'RE FUNDING FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN NOW.

WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THAT THE WHOLE TIME.

UWE TALKING ABOUT FUNDING STUDENTS.

WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FUNDING STUDENTS.

YOU TALKING ABOUT UNIVERSAL PRE-K SO ALL FOUR-YEAR-OLDS HAVE THE OPTION.

WE SHOULD BE FUNDING THAT RIGHT NOW.

WE HAVE A HISTORIC BUDGET RIGHT NOW SURPLUS.

SO WE CAN AFFORD TO DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO FOR OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

>> BUT FOR PARENTS WHO ARE FRUSTRATED BECAUSE OF COVID RULES AND RESTRICTIONS AND PUBLIC SCHOOLS, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY THE TO THEM IF THEY'RE LOOKING FOR ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS?

>> I THINK OUR PARENTS NEED TO BE ENGAGED IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THEY NEED TO COME AND BE INVOLVED AND ENGAGED AT ALL TIMES IN THOSE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

I THINK EVERY PARENT WANTS A HIGH QUALITY PUBLIC SCHOOL JUST DOWN THE BLOCK.

THEIR COMMUNITY SCHOOL WHERE THEY GO TO FOOTBALL GAMES, WHERE THEY GO TO BASKETBALL GAMES, WHERE THEY GATHER FOR CONCERTS AND MUSICALS.

THEY WANT THAT NEVER SINGLE COMMUNITY AND EVERY SINGLE STUDENT DESERVES THAT IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

>> I THINK THAT'S ONE POINT WE CAN WEI ALL CAN AGREE ON, JUST A DIFFERENT WAY GETTING THERE.

THANK YOU THIS.

THIS WAS AN EXCELLENT DISCUSSION.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

NEXT MONDAY NIGHT SAME TIME, SAME STATION, WE'RE GOING TO BE TALKING ABOUT CHILD ABUSE IN KENTUCKY, AND MEASURE SB 8 SENATE BILL 8 THAT'S LOOKING TO ADDRESS THAT SO WE HOPE THAT YOU WILL JOIN US AGAIN MEDICATION MONDAY AT 8:00 EASTERN.

MY COLLEAGUE CASEY PARKER-BELL HAS A REPORT FROM FRANKFORT 11:30 TONIGHT ABOUT ALL THE HAPPENINGS IN THE LEGISLATURE.