WELCOME TO "KENTUCKY TONIGHT."

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

ONE TYPO TONIGHT, SCHOOL CHOICE.

LAST WEEK THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY PASSED HOUSE BILL 563, A BILL THAT WOULD MAKE IT EASIER FOR STUDENTS TO ATTEND SCHOOLS OUTSIDE THEIR OWN DISTRICTS.

IT ALSO PROVIDES FORTH CREATION OF EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS.

DONORS WOULD RECEIVE TAX CREDIT FOR DONATING.

CRITICS SAY THAT WOULD PULL FUNDING FROM PUBLIC SCHOOLS, BUT PROPONENTS BELIEVE IT WILL GIVE LOW-INCOME FAMILIES THE ABILITY TO CHOOSE A SCHOOL THAT WOULD PROVIDE A BETTER EDUCATION FOR THEIR CHIL.

TODAY GOVERNOR ANDY BESHEAR SAID HE COULD ANNOUNCE A DECISION ON VETOING EDUCATION-RELATED MEASURES WHICH COULD INCLUDE HOUSE BILL 563 ON WEDNESDAY IF HE VETOES, IT THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WOULD HAVE THE CHANCE TO OVERRIDE THAT VETO WHEN IT RECONVENE NEXT week TO DISCUSS SCHOOL CHOICE WE ARE JOINED IN OUR LEXINGTON STUDIO BY: COMMISSIONER JASON GLASS OF THE KENTUCKY DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATIO GARY FIELDS, SUPERINTENDENT OF THE BOWLING GREEN INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT EDDIE CAMPBELL, PRESIDENT OF THE KENTUCKY EDUCATION ASSOCIATION.

AND ANDREW VANDIVER, VICE PRESIDENT OF EDCHOICE KENTUCKY.

IN YOUR LOUISVILLE STUDIO WE HAVE HEATHER HUDDLESTON, DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION POLICY AT THE BLUEGRASS INSTITUTE FOR PUBLIC POLICY.

AND BY SKYPE WE'RE JOINED BIAN ANNA BAUMANN, DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF KENTUCKY CENTER FOR ECONOMIC POLICY.

WE WANT YOU TO JOIN THE CONVERSATION.

IT SHOULD BE A ROBUST ONE.

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WELCOME TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS, GENTLEMEN IN THE STUDIO AND THE LADIES WHO ARE WITH US FROM AFAR.

THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE FOR THIS IMPORTANT DISCUSSION BECAUSE WE ARE IN THE THICK OF IT AS WE ARE JUST DAYS WEIGHT FROM GENERAL ASSEMBLY RECONVENING.

THIS COULD BE A BILL, ANDREW VANDIVER, THAT THEY ACT ON AGAIN.

I WANT YOU, AS I ALWAYS HAVE GUESTS TO, WHO ARE PROPONENTS BILL TO GIVE US THE OUTLINE.

THIS IS WHAT WE CALL MANDATORY ENROLLMENT OR WHAT I THINK CHAD McCRORY, REPRESENTATIVE CALLS IT, SCHOOLS BOUT BORDERS, THIS EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY COUNTIES AND IS VERY SIMILAR TO SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT PRESIDENTS GIVES READER'S DIGEST VERSION OF WHAT THIS BILL DOES.

AND IN YOUR OPINION WHY IS THIS BILL RIGHT FOR KENTUCKY RIGHT NOW?

>> SURE.

I'LL START WHY IT'S RIGHT.

LAST TUESDAY I WAS GREAT DAY FOR KENTUCKY PARENTS.

IT WAS A GREAT DAY FOR PARENTS WHO DESPERATELY WANT KNOWS BUT CAN'T AFFORD IT.

IT'S A GREAT DAY FOR PARENTS WHOSE CHILDREN ARE BEING BULLIED AND THEY SIMPLY NEED ANOTHER OPTION WHETHER THESE PUBLIC OR NON-PUBLIC SCHOOL OPTIONS.

IT'S A GREAT DAY FOR FAMILIES WHO SIMPLY WANT AN EDUCATION THAT REFLECTS THEIR FAMILY'S VALUES, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THAT'S A PUBLIC OR NON-PUBLIC SCHOOL.

SO JUST IN A NUT VEL WHAT HOUSE BILL 563 DOES IS IT DOES PROVIDE FAMILIES CHOICES ACROSS THE STATE WHEN IT COMES TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS, SO A FAMILY COULD CHOOSE A PUBLIC SCHOOL OUTSIDE THEIR DISTRICT STARTING IN 2022, AND WHAT THE PART THAT MY ORGANIZATION HAD AT CHOICE KENTUCKY SUPPORTING IS DOING IS CREATE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS, AND WHAT THOSE ACCOUNTS WOULD DO IS THEY PRO WOULD PROVIDE FAMILIES ACROSS THE STATE WITH ACCESS TO I PRIVATELY FUND UPPED ACCOUNT THAT WOULD GIVE THEM OPPORTUNITIES LIKE TUITION ASSISTANCE AT A PUBLIC SCHOOL, IT WOULD ALSO PROVIDE CURRENT TECHNICAL TRAINING, IT WOULD PROVIDE TUTORING SERVICES ACROSS THE STATE.

AND IN OUR LARGEST COUNTIES IT WOULD PROVIDE TUITION SAINTS NON-PUBLIC SCHOOLS K-12.

>> SO THOSE ARE FAYETTE, JEFFERS, KENTON, BOONE AND HARDIN AND THE BILL DIDN'T START OFF THAT WAY INCLUDING IT WAS ONE I MENTIONED.

IT WAS TARGETED FOR COUNTIES WITH POPULATION OF 150,000.

AN AMENDMENT WAS LADED LAST WEEK BY THE SENATE THAT MOVED THAT DOWN TO 90,000 PULLING WARREN COUNTY SUPERINTENDENT GARY FIELDS RIGHT, THERE BEING ELIGIBLE FOR THIS PROGRAM.

SO I'LL COME BACK TO YOU IN A MINUTE, MR. VANDIVER, BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, SUPERINTENDENT FIELDS, BECAUSE THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME DISSENSION AND DISCORD AMONGST THE SUPERINTENDENT RANKS ABOUT THIS BILL.

EVEN IF THEY ARE INDEPENDENT SCHOOLS DISTRICTS.

AND SO HOUSTON BARBER, THE SUPER OF FRANKFORT FRANKFORT INDEPENDENT SCHOOLS ASSESS SAID HOUSE BILL 563 PAVES THE WAY TO FUND PUBLIC OPPORTUNITIES AND THE PATHWAY WILL CONTINUE TO WIDEN.

JAY BREWER IN NORTHERN KENTUCKY eMAILED THIS TO ME, SINCE 2008 THE STATE HAS REDUCED ITS PORTION OF SEEK FUNDING PER PUPIL BY 12%.

EVERY KID IN KENTUCKY HAS LOST OUT ON FUNDING FOR TEXTBOOKS, TRANSPORTATION AND INSTRUCTIONAL SUPPLIES.

AND HE ASKS YOU AS A PUBLIC SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT, HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY A WILLINGNESS TO SUPPORT OPEN BORDERS THAT RESULT IN A LOSS OF STATES DOLLARS TO SUPPORTS PRIVATE SCHOOLS THAT ARE ABLE TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST STUDENTS.

YOUR RESPONSE.

>> WELL, I THINK JAY HAS A UNIQUE SITUATION IN DAYTON INDEPENDENT AND I THINK THE NORTHERN KENTUCKY SUPERINTENDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN VERY GOOD AT MAKING A LOT OF VISUALS TO ALL SHARE SHARE ABOUT THEIR OPINION ON HOUSE BILL 563, BUT I THINK BOWLING GREEN INDEPENDENT AND OTHER INDEPENDENT DISTRICTS IN OUR SITUATION, PINEVILLE, RACEnd, PAINTSVILLE, CORBIN, MURRAY AND AUGUSTA, MANY OTHERS AROUND THE STATE HAVE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

AND OUR PERSPECTIVE IS THAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR SCHOOL CHOICE FOR PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS, AND, YOU KNOW, WE ARE ONE OF 171 SCHOOL DISTRICTS IN THE COMMONLY.

51 OF THOSE DISTRICTS, INDEPENDENT DISTRICTS.

OUR DISTRICT WAS FOUNDED IN 1880.

SO WE ARE FUNDED JUST LIKE ALL OF THE COUNTY SCHOOL DISTRICTS.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE WAY THAT THE LAW IS WRITTEN IS THAT COUNTY SCHOOL DISTRICTS HAVE CONTROL OFWHERE STUDENTS CAN ATTEND SCHOOL.

90% OF DISTRICTS THAT'S NOT A BIG DEAL AND JAY BREWER UP IN NORTHERN KENTUCKY SAYS THEY GET ALONG FINE, THEY DON'T HAVE AN ISSUE.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE DO HAVE DISTRICTS AROUND THE STATE WHO ARE STRUGGLING WITH NON-RESIDENT STUDENT AGREEMENTS WHERE STUDENTS CAN ATTEND SCHOOL.

OUR EXAMPLE IS WE'RE A DISTRICT 4200 STUDENTS.

WE HAVE SEVEN SCHOOLS.

WE'RE ONE OF THE MOST DIVERSE SCHOOLS IN KENTUCKY.

65% FREE LUNCH.

WE HAVE 20% AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDENTS, 19% HISPANIC STUDENTS, 50 LANGUAGES, TWO LANGUAGES THAT ARE SPOKEN MOST FREQUENTLY ARE SPANISH AND SWAHILI.

EVE THREE SWAHILI INTERPRETERS I WOULD GUESS NO OTHER DISTRICT IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY HAS THAT.

BUT WE HAVE ALSO A LOT OF PARENTS THAT DON'T LIVE IN OUR SCHOOL DISTRICT, WHICH IS VERY SMALL.

THE DISTRICT WAS ESTABLISHED IN 1959 AS FAR AS THE BOUNDARIES CANNOT EXPAND FROM THAT POINT.

WARREN COUNTY IS ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING AREAS INX WOULDN'T TO GIVE PARENTS THAT CHOICE IF THEY'D LIKE TO COME TO BOWLING GREEN INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT TO MAKE THAT DECISION AND BRING ALONG THE SEEK FUNDS THAT COME WITH THOSE STUDENTS.

>> THE TUITION GO TO BOWLING GREEN INDEPENDENT?

>> THERE'S A SMALL TUITION.

WE CHARGE $500.

THAT IS AN OFFSET BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW IF YOU CHECK INTO INDEPENDENT DISTRICTS OR PROPERTY TAX RATE IS HIGHER THAN OTHER DISTRICTS SO THAT'S AN OFFSET THAT WE DO CHARGE.

>> SO THOSE STUDENTS THAT GO THERE, DO THEY PERFORM BETTER THAN IF THEY WENT TO A DIFFERENT PUBLIC SCHOOL IN THE COUNTY?

>> IT'S NOT ABOUT BETTER.

IT'S ABOUT OPPORTUNITIES.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE GET LOST IN THIS ARGUMENT.

I THINK SOME PARENTS, IT'S ABOUT PROXIMITY.

WESTERN KENTUCKY UNIVERSITY SITS IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR SCHOOL DISTRICT 1 SO IF A PARENT WORKS AT WKU AND THEY'D LIKE TO HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TO GO LUNCH WITH THEIR CHILD OR BE INVOLVED IN THEIR THE CHILD'S EDUCATION, THAT WORKS FOR THEM, AND THEY MAY LIVE 30 OR 40 MILES AWAY.

THE SAME WOULD GO FOR IF THERE'S CHILD CARE ISSUES.

IF THERE'S OPPORTUNITIES.

IF WE HAVE AN ORCHESTRA STRAW PROGRAM THAT A KID IS EXCITED ABOUT, THEY CAN COME.

WE DON'T HAVE AN AG PROGRAM SO WITH A SAID, HEY, MY KID VEIL INTERESTED IN AGRICULTURE STUDIES, I WOULD SAY YOU NEED TO GO TO ONE OF THE LOCAL COUNTY HIGH SCHOOLS BECAUSE WE CANNOT PROVIDE THAT.

WE DON'T HAVE RESOURCES FOR THAT.

SO I THINK IT'S ABOUT OPPORTUNITIES, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO GIVE FAMILIES IN KENTUCKY.

>> COMMISSIONER GLASS, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE WITH US.

AGAIN, ARE YOU OPPOSED TO HOUSE BILL 563?

AND IF SO, WHY?

>> I AM OPPOSED TO HOUSE BILL 563, AND IT'S NOT BECAUSE I'M AN IDEOLOG ON EITHER SIDE OF THIS DEBATE SAYING THAT KENTUCKY NEEDS TO TAKE UP PUBLIC SCHOOL CHOICE AND PRIVATE SCHOOL TAX CREDITS OR THAT WE SHOULD OPPOSE THEM ON ALL FRONTS.

GIVEN THE POLITICAL MAKE-UP, THE PARTISAN MAKE-UP IN KENTUCKY AND HOW THINGS HAVE SHIFTED WEBSITES PROBABLY TIME THAT WE START TALKING WITH SCHOOL CHOICE AND HOW THAT MIGHT COME TO BE IN KENTUCKY.

I'M OPPOSED TO THIS BILL.

I SPENT MOST OF MY CAREER AS AN EDUCATOR IN COLORADO WHICH LAST A ROBUST SYSTEM OF PUBLIC SCHOOL CHOICE AND A NUMBER OF CHARTER SCHOOLS, AND SO I'VE WORKED IN SYSTEMS THAT DO PARTS OF WHAT THIS BILL DOES.

AND WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS IT BRINGS POSITIVES AND IS NEGATIVES.

SOME OF THE POSITIVES THAT PARENTS WILL BE EMPOWERED.

SOME OF THE PROBLEMS YOU HEARD SUPERINTENDENT FIELDS TALK ABOUT, PARENTS WILL HAVE MORE OPTIONS, AND IT WILL CREATE DIFFERENT AND INNOVATIVE SCHOOL MODELS.

LIPPETT ALSO THIN THE RESOURCES AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, AND IT WILL LEAD TO DE FACTO SEGREGATION IN OUR SCHOOLS, SO IT'S A MIXED BAG.

THERE ARE BOTH POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES.

>> ARE YOU ENCOURAGE GOVERNOR TO VETO THE BILL?

>> I AM.

AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS THAT THIS BILL HAS BEEN CRAMMED THROUGH THE LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

IT'S ENORMOUSLY CONSEQUENTIAL AND IMPORTANT THAT WE GET THIS RIGHT.

KENTUCKIANS DESERVE A QUALITY PUBLIC POLICY WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION, AND THE FACT THAT THIS IS BEEN RUN THROUGH LATE IN THE SESSION WITH AN INTENTIONAL EFFORT TO LIMIT INPUT FROM STAKEHOLDERS IN KENTUCKY IS REALLY TROUBLING.

IT'S LED TO A SUBSTANDARD PUBLIC SCHOOL CHOICE ELEMENT THAT WILL LEAD TO CONSTITUTIONAL CHALLENGES AND COURT CASES, AND THE PRIVATE SCHOOL COMPONENTS IS EQUALLY TROUBLING, AS I THINK IT'S GOING TO LEAD TO GRIFT, CORAL SPRINGS, FRAUD, AND UNREGULATED, UNACCOUNTABLE SYSTEM.

>> WERE YOU FOR HOUSE BILL F. CONSECUTIVE WHEN IT WAS JUST FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS ONLY IN BECAUSE A FEW WEEKS AGO CHAD McCOY WAS ON "KENTUCKY TONIGHT," AND AT THAT TIME THAT ITERATION OF THE BILL HAD IT ONLY APPLYING TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

IS THAT SOMETHING YOU WOULD HAVE FAVORED?

>> NOT IN THIS FORM.

AGAIN I'M NOT AN OPPONENT OF SCHOOL CHOICE AND I THINK THAT IT'S TIME WE START TALKING ABOUT THIS IN KENTUCKY, BUT THIS BILL IS POORLY VETTED AND IT'S BEEN RUSHED THROUGH.

SO EVEN ON THE PUBLIC SCHOOL CHOICE COMPONENT OF IT, IF WE SLOWED DOWN AND THOUGHT BUT HOW TO CONSTRUCT THIS WHERE UNDER FINANCING WOULD COLOCONSTITUTIONALY, WE WOULD COULD MAKE SURE STUDENTS WEREN'T INS DISADVANTAGES OR DISCRIMINATED AGAINST IN THESE SYSTEMS, AND THERE'S MORE CLARITY ABOUT HOW THIS WOULD COME TO BE IN DISTRICTS ACROSS THE STATE, I COULD GET ONBOARD, TUT BUT THE CURRENT BILL THAT'S RUSHED THROUGH, HALF-BAKED I'M NOT THERE.

>> ON NOVEMBER 1st I BELIEVE OF THIS YEAR CAN BE WD KDE WOULD BE CHARGED REPORTING TO NRC AN EQUITABLE FRANCE FER OF UNEDUCATION FUNDS.

IS THAT CORRECT?

WHAT ELSE IS IN THE BILL THAT PERTAINS TO KENTUCKY DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION?

>> THAT'S AN EXAMPLE OF THE PROBLEM I'M TALKING ABOUT.

THE BILL SAYS GO FORTH AND CREATE THESE SYSTEMS AND TO HEAVEN TIME WE'LL FIGURE IT OUT.

YOU NEED TO HAVE THESE THINGS FIGURED OUT FIRSTHAND SO WE DON'T LEAD -- FOREHAND SO WE DON'T LEAD TO COURT CHALLENGES OR DISTRICTS THAT DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO THIS OR CONFLICTS ACROSS THE STATE ABOUT WHAT THE LAW MEANS.

THESE FINANCINGS NEED TO BE FIGURED OUT BEFOREHAND.

THIS SHOULD BE A LAY-UP FOR THIS LEGISLATURE.

I AIDE HATE TO GIVE BASKETBALL ANALOGIES, BUT GIVEN THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS WE HAVE IN THE LEGISLATURE, THIS SHOULD BE AN EASY BILL TO PASS, AND IF FACT THAT THERE'S A QUESTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY CAN MUSTER ENOUGH VOTES TO OVERTURN THE VETO SHOULD GIVE EVERYONE PAUSE THAT THIS NEEDS MORE ATTENTION.

>> Renee: WE'LL JUST REMIND FOLKS OR INFORM OTHERS WHEN IT PASSED LAST WEEK, IT PASSED THE SENATE 21-15.

IT PASSED THE HOUSE 48-47.

AND SO THOSE NUMBERS HAVE TO STICK BECAUSE 51 VOTES, EDDIE CAMPBELL, ARE NEEDED IN THE HOUSE IN ORDER TO OVERRIDE THE VETO, SO EITHER THOSE WHO WERE ON THE FENCE OR WHO WERE RELUCTANT THE FIRST TIME, THEY HAVE TO STICK SOME WAY IN ORDER FOR THIS TO BE A GO.

YOU HAD TESTIFIED LAST WEEK TO I THINK IT WAS THE SENATE A&R COMMITTEE AGAINST THIS BILL.

WE SHOULD REMIND FOLKS THAT YOU'RE A KNOCKS COUNTY MUSIC TEACHER AND YOU ARE IN THE FIELD.

WHY ARE YOU NOT FOR THIS?

TELL US WHAT YOUR OPPOSITION IS TO IT AND IS THE KEA.

>> KEA HAS BEEN A PROPONENT FOR OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS SERVE EVERY STUDENT IN THE STATE.

THEY OPEN THE DOORS OF OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

WE WELCOME ALL STUDENTS NO MATTER WHAT THEIR BACKGROUND, WHAT THEY BRING THIS WITH THEM, AND MAKING SURE THAT WE PROVIDE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES FOR EVERY SINGLE STUDENT ALL ACROSS THE STATE, NOT SINGING OUT JUST A SET OR A SMALL GROUP BUT PROVIDE THOSE OPPORTUNITIES ACROSS THE STATE.

IT SHOULDN'T MATTER WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO SCHOOL IN KENTUCKY, YOU SHOULD HAVE OPPORTUNITIES FOR A HIGH QUALITY EDUCATION, WHETHER IT BE IN PIKEVILLE OR PADUCAH OR IN NORTHERN KENTUCKY OR ALL THE WAY DOWN TO THE CUMBERLAND RIVER.

THOSE SCHOOLS SHOULD PROVIDE EVERY SINGLE OPPORTUNITY.

AND IF ANYTHING THAT COVID HAS SHOWN US OVER THE PAST YEAR IS THE OPPORTUNITY GAPS THAT EXIST OUTS THERE IN PUBLIC EDUCATION.

AND A LOT OF THAT IS ACCREDITED TO OUR TEACHERS WHO HAVE BEEN COVERING THAT.

THEY HAVE REACHED INTO THEIR POCKETS.

THEY PROVIDE SUPPLIES.

THEY PROVIDE RESOURCES.

THEY MAKE SURE THAT THEIR STUDENTS HAVE EVERYTHING THEY NEED, EVERY SINGLE PERSON THAT WORKS IN THE SCHOOL DISTRICT IS THERE FOR ONE REASON AND ONE REASON ONLY.

IT'S TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR STUDENTS ARE SUCCESSFUL, THAT THEIR STUDENTS HAVE OPPORTUNITY, AND THAT THEY'RE STUDENTS CAN SUCCEED IN LIFE MOVING FORWARD.

>> SO THE SEEK DOLLARS WOULD FOLLOW THE CHILD WHEREVER THEY WENT, RIGHT, ACCORDING TO THIS BILL.

EXPLAIN TO US HOW PUBLIC SCHOOLS STAND TO LOSE MONEY.

>> OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, AS WE HEARD EARLIER, ARE UNDERFUNDED AS IT IS, AND SINCE 2008 HAS BEEN REDUCED BY ABOUT 12%.

WE DON'T HAVE FUNDING FOR TEXTBOOKS OR RESOURCES.

WE DON'T HAVE FUNDING TO SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL LEARNING FOR OUR EDUCATORS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE KEEPING UP ON PRACTICES AND MOVING FORWARD SO THAT THEY HAVE EVERYTHING THEY NEED TO TEACH THEIR STUDENTS IN TERMS OF SKILLS.

WE DON'T HAVE FUNDING TO SUPPORT OUR NEW EDUCATORS THAT ARE GOING INTO THIS THE SYSTEM.

ANY TIME WE DON'T INCREASE ZEKE OR WE TAKE MAUN WAY -- INCREASE SEEK OR TAKE MONEY WAY AWAY FROM THAT TEM IT'S DETRIMENTAL TO ALL STUDENTS.

>> BUT IT'S NOT TAKING MONEY AWAY FROM SEEK.

IT'S FROM THE STATE GENERAL FUND.

SO IS IT DISINGENUOUS THAT CY IT'S WOULD BE TAKING MONEY AWAY FROM THE BASE SCHOOL FUNDING?

>> WELL, WE'RE NOT FUNDING -- ANY TIME WE TAKE A SEEK DOLLAR AND MIGHT HAVE FROM ONE DISTRICT TO THE OTHER WEBSITES LIKE ME TAKING A DOLLAR OUT OF ONE POCKET AND PUTTING IT INTO THE OTHER.

THE MONEY, THE AMOUNT OF MONEY HASN'T CHANGED.

>> I'M GUESS THINKING IN TERMS OF $25 MILLION CAP, THE TAX CREDIT PORTION OF THAT, THAT THAT'S NOT TAKING AWAY MONEY FROM EDUCATION FUNDING.

IT'S MORE AFFECTING THE GENERAL FUND DOLLARS.

>> I THINK WHEN YOU START GIVING OUT TAX CREDIT, YOU'RE GIVING AWAY MONEY THAT COULD BE USED FOR ALL BUBBLE SERVICES, NOT JUST PUBLIC EDUCATION BECAUSE THOSE TAX DOLLARS GO INTO THE GENERAL FUND P. THE GENERAL FUND FUNDS OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

IF WE'RE BEHIND 12%, THAT $25 MILLION COULD BE USED FOR TEXTBOOKS.

WE HAVE ZERO DOLLARS IN THIS CURRENT BUDGET THAT'S BEING PRESENTED FOR TEXTBOOKS.

WE HAVE ZERO DOLLARS FOR PROFESSIONAL LEARNING.

OUR TRANSPORTATION ISN'T FULLY FUNDED.

SO THERE'S LOTS OF WAYS THIS MONEY COULD BE PUT TO USE FOR ALL STUDENTS IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

>> AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT HOW TRANSPORTATION WORKS UNDERNEATH HOUSE BILL 563 IN A PERSISTENT 1 I WANT TO BRING IN HEATHER HUDDLESTON BECAUSE ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WE DID, TO THE POINT MR. CAMPBELL WAS MAKING, IS THAT COVID AND REMOTE INSTRUCTION, NON-TRADITIONAL INSTRUCTION, REALLY DID EXPOSE THE FLAWS IN THE PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM.

RIGHT?

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU AGREE WITH THAT OR NOT.

BUT I DO WANT YOU TO KIND OF TALK ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE BECAUSE YOU HAVE RUN THESE SCHOOL CHOICE SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAMS IN JEFFERSON AND OLDHAM COUNTIES, SO SPEAK TO US ABOUT HOW THE COVID EXPERIENCE LENDS MORE CREDENCE TO A BILL LIKE HOUSE BILL 563, BEAN AGO IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME, AND THEN TO YOUR EXPERIENCE DIRECTLY WITH RUNNING A PROGRAM LIKE THIS.

>> WELL, YES, THE PANDEMIC HAS REALLY HIGHLIGHTED THE LACK OF OPTIONS THAT, PARTICULARLY LOW INCOME FAMILIES HAVE IN CHOOSING THE RIGHT SCHOOL FOR THEIR CHILD.

WE'VE ALWAYS HAD SCHOOL CHOICE IN THIS STATE FOR FAMILIES WITH MEANS, AND THE LAST YEAR OF CHILDREN NOT BEING IN SCHOOL HAS REALLY SHOWN HOW FEW OPTIONS PARENTS HAVE.

THEY'VE HAD TO MANAGE NTI FROM HOME.

THERE'S NOT BEEN CHILD CARE.

THEY'VE NOT NOT BEEN ABLE TO TRANSFER TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT.

THERE'S NO SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAM FOR THEM.

AND THERE'S CERTAINLY NO, YOU KNOW, CHARTER SCHOOL OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF PROGRAM, AND IT'S BEEN A YEAR, AND SO PARENTS HAVE REALLY LEARNED HOW FEW OPTIONAL THEY HAVE.

AND FRANKLY IT'S BEEN VERY EXCITING TO SEE THEM REALIZE THAT THEY HAVE A VOICE AND START TO USE IT.

AND HOUSE BILL 563 COULD HELP THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN WHO REALLY NEED IT.

THEY MAY BE ASSIGNED TIE TRADITIONAL PUBLIC SCHOOL THAT'S JUST NOT THE RIGHT FIT FOR THEM.

EVERY SCHOOL IS NOT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL FOR EVERY CHILD.

AND THE HOUSE BILL 563 CAN PROVIDE OPPORTUNITIES FOR ALL PUBLIC STUDENTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE, EVERY CORNER OF THE STATE, AND FOR ADDITIONALLY PROVIDE RESOURCES FOR CHILDREN IN THE LARGEST DISTRICTS THAT YOU NAMED EARLIER TO HELP WITH PRIVATE SCHOOL TUITION THERE.

SO WE'RE VERY EXCITED ABOUT THIS SORT OF TITLE SHIFT FORY OF E. KENTUCKY'S FAMILIES.

>> SO CAN YOU TALK TO JUST BRIEFLY ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH THESE PROGRAMS, RUNNING THESE KIND OF PROGRAMS.

>> THE EXPERIENCE IS THAT THERE ARE MANY, MANY MORE FAMILIES WHO WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO SEND THEIR CHILD TO THE SCHOOL OF THEIR CHOICE THAN ARE ABLE TO, AND THEY REALIZE THAT THEIR NEIGHBORS WHO HAVE MORE MONEY ARE ABLE TO MOVE TO DIFFERENTIATE ZIP CODE OR PAY TUITION AT A PRIVATE SCHOOL, AND THEY REALLY DON'T HAVE THOSE SAME OPTIONS.

THE PANDEMIC HAS REALLY HIGHLIGHTED THAT FOR THEM.

>> I WANT TO GO NOW TO ANNA BAUMANN BECAUSE THE KENTUCKY CENTER FOR ECONOMIC POLICY HAS BEEN A PART OF THIS ISSUE, AND YOU'VE TESTIFIED AGAINST HOUSE BILL 563 AS RECENTLY AS LAST WEEK.

THIS QUESTION FROM ROB SAYS IN LOUISVILLE, IN THE DEBATE ABOUT 563 ITS SPONSOR CONTINUALLY SAYS THAT THE BILL WOULD PROVIDE OPPORTUNITIES TO THE POOREST OF THE POOR.

GIVEN THAT THE INCOME CUTOFFS TO QUALIFY FAR EXCEED THE MEDIAN INCOME OF KENTUCKY, HOW DOES THIS BILL ENSURE, QUOTE, THAT THE POOREST OF THE POOR ACTUALLY HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITY TO FEIGNED AND STAY IN PRIVATE SCHOOLS IF THEY CHOOSE?

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOUR POLICY BRIEF THAT WAS RELEASED EARLIER IN MARCH ADDRESSED.

CAN YOU ANSWER MR. MATHIEU'S QUESTION?

>> YES.

THE ANSWER IS THE BILL DOES NOT ENSURE THAT THE RESOURCES MADE AVAILABLE THROUGH THE TAX CREDIT PROGRAM WOULD GO TO THE FAMILIES WITH MOST NEED.

IN FACT, RESEARCH FROM OTHER STATES THAT HAVE PROGRAMS LIKE THIS SHOWS THAT GENERALLY.

MOST AFFLUENT PEOPLE WHO ARE ELIGIBLE END UP RECEIVING THE RESOURCES TO THE PROGRAM, AND IN KENTUCKY 63% OF CHILDREN WOULD BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE PROGRAM, AND REMEMBER, THE RESEARCH SHOWS THAT THE MOST AFFLUENT ELIGIBLE GENERALLY TAKE UP THE RESOURCES.

AND THAT'S JUST IN THE FIRST YEAR.

AND GOING FORWARD, PEOPLE WITH INCOMES UP TO 463% OF POVERTY, SO FOR A FAMILY OF FOUR THAT'S $121,000, COULD BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE AWARD AND IN FACT WOULD TAKE PRIORITY IN GETTING RESOURCES AND EVERY YEAR AFTER THE FIRST YEAR.

ANOTHER BIG CONCERN ABOUT THE WAY THIS BILL IN NO WAY ENSURES THAT RESOURCES WILL GO WHERE THEY'RE NEEDED IS THAT WHILE THERE IS A PROHIBITION AGAINST DONORS TO THE ACCOUNT ORGANIZATION GIVING MONEY FOR SPECIFIC STUDENTS, THERE'S NO PROHIBITION AGAINST THEM GIVING FOR PARTICULAR FAMILIES OR COMMUNITIES OR PARISHES OR PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

AN ACCOUNT ORGANIZATION ONLY HAS TO WORK WITH TWO EDUCATION SERVICE PROVIDERS AND PROVIDE 50 ACCOUNTS.

SO IT COULD VERY EASILY HAPPEN THAT A WEALTHY DONOR WOULD GIVE THE MAX ALL MANAGEMENT AND THEN THE GRANT ORGANIZATION COULD MAKE SURE THAT MONEY GOES TO A PARTICULAR COMMUNITY.

AND THAT MONEY AGAIN IS COMING OUT OF THE GENERAL FUND.

IT'S NOT A PRIVATELY FUNDED PROGRAM.

THOSE RESOURCES WOULD GO INTO THE GENERAL FUND AND THEY WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS AND HEALTH DEPARTMENTS AND PARKS AND OTHER IMPORTANT INVESTMENTS IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

SO THOSE RESOURCES WOULD GO TO THE GENERAL FUND EXCEPT FOR THEY ARE DIVERTED INTO THE ACCOUNT GRANTING ORGANIZATIONS THAT CAN THEN TARGET THEM TO PARTICULAR COMMUNITIES.

AND A BIG CONCERN OF OURS IS THAT THESE ACCOUNT GRANTING ORGANIZATIONS THEMSELVES CAN TAKE 10% OF THE MONEYS FORAY SALARIES AND BENEFITS AND OTHER EXPENSES.

THEY CAN CONTRACT WITH EITHER FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT GROUPS, THEY CAN DEVELOP LARGE AND GROWING CARRY-FORWARDS, SO THEY'RE TAKING MONEY OFF THE TOP.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, AND THEN GET WHAT THEY WANT TO DECIDE WHICH STUDENTS GET THOSE MONEYS.

AND THE FAMILIES THAT ARE -- THAT ARE MOST WELL SITUATED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE PROGRAM ARE GOING TO.

FAMILIES IN RURAL COMMUNITIES THAT DON'T HAVE MANY EDUCATIONAL ALTERNATIVES, THAT HAVE LIMITED ACCESS TO INTERNET AND TRANSPORTATION WILL FACE BARRIERS TO PARTICIPATING IN THE PROGRAM.

AND MEANWHILE I JUST WANT TO REITERATE THAT THE BEST WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE -- THE STUDENTS WHO HAVE THE MOST NEED GET THE RESOURCES AND THE SUPPORTS THEY NEED IS TO ADEQUATELY FUND OUR SEEK FORMULA.

THAT FORMULA IS DESIGNED TO PUT RESOURCES WHERE THEY'RE MOST NEEDED, WHILE THIS PROGRAM IS IN NO WAY DESIGNED TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE WHO NEED RESOURCES GET THEM.

>> AND THERE WAS A PART OF THIS BILL, AND I BELIEVE THAT IT WAS STRICKEN AND IT'S A SEPARATE PART THAT WOULD REQUIRE SOME STUDY ON ORE A TASK FORCE ON -- OR A TASK FORCE ON SEEK FUNDING, BUT I THINK THAT'S IN A DIFFERENT BILL NOW.

IS THAT CORRECT, MS. BAUMANN?

>> YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

>> I WANTED TO TURN NOW TO MR. VANDIVER.

>> I CAN CLEAR UP SOME STUFF.

>> BUT LET'S DO IT IN AN ORGANIZED FASHION IF WE WILL BECAUSE I DO WANT TO GET TO THE POINT THAT MS. BAUMANN MAKES THAT THERE IS NO INCOME LIMITATION ON WHICH FAMILIES WILL ACTUALLY BENEFIT FROM THESE EDUCATION ACCOUNTS.

NOW, IT SAYS 175% OF THE FEDERAL POVERTY LEVEL, WHICH EQUALS TO BE ABOUT $84,500 FOR A FAMILY OF FOUR, BUT THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE DEFINED SPECIFICITY FOR -- TO BE ANY KIND OF SPECIFICITY FOR THE CEILING.

>> THAT'S INCORRECT.

SO THE BILL SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT A FAMILY -- THAT FAMILIES UNDER THE REDUCED LUNCH INCOME LEVEL, SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LOW INCOME FAMILIES HAVE TO BE PRIORITIZED AND RECEIVE A MAJORITY OF THE AID.

>> THEY HAVE TO BE PRIORITIZED BUT WEALTH INNER FAMILIES COULD PARTICIPATE THROUGH A LOTTERY SYSTEM, THEY CANNOT EGG CORRECTED.

>> THE THEY'RE NOT WEALTHY ENEMIES TO BE FREE LUNCH.

I DON'T ANY ANYBODY CAN PRIORITIZE THAT AND WITHIN THAT CATEGORY YOU HAVE TO PRIORITIZE BEAM WITH THE GREATEST NEED.

ONCE THAT THRESHOLD IS MET YOU CAN GO TO 1 VIVE% ABOVE REDUCED LUNCH BUT THOSE ARE WORKING CLASS AND LOWER MIDDLE INCOME FAMILIES, AND TO GIVE YOU SOME PERSPECTIVE ON AVERAGE E. KENTUCKY SCHOOL TEACHERS MAKE 54 NOW HOW TO DOLLARS A YEAR.

IF YOU HAD TWO MARRIED PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS WITH ONLY TWO OR THREE KIDS, THEY WOULD MAKE TOO MUCH TO QUALIFY, AND I DON'T ANY MR. CAMPBELL OR 4 GLASS OR ANYBODY ELSE WOULD SAY THAT KENTUCKY SCHOOL TEVIS, WEALTHY PEOPLE.

THEY WOULD MAKE TOO MUCH TO QUALIFY FOR THIS PROGRAM.

SO THE BILL DOES HAVE INCOME LIMITS AND IT DOES PRIORITIZE LOWER INCOME CHILDREN.

I ALSO WANT TO SAY THAT THIS IDEA THAT A.

THIS WAS RUSHED THROUGH AND HASN'T BEEN VETTED, I'LL FORGIVE COMMISSIONER GLASS.

I KNOW HE'S BEEN OUT OF THE STATE FOR A FEW YEARS, BUT WE'VE BEEN TALKING THIS THING TO DEATH.

BILLS HAVE BEEN FILED FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS TO CREATE A TAX CREDIT SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAM AND NOW WE WORK ON ACCOUNT.

ACCOUNTS.

I KNOW THAT PUBLIC ENROLLMENT SCHOOL DISTRICTS HAVE EXISTED FOR ADDICTS, AND IT WAS KNOWN AT THE HEARING THAT THAT ISSUE WAS PUT TO A INTERIM STUDY COMMISSION, SO THAT ISSUE HAS BEEN STUDIED.

THE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNT BILL WAS FILED IN THE FIRST WEEK OF JANUARY.

HOUSE BILL 563 WAS FILED IN THE FIRST WEEK OF FEBRUARY, I BELIEVE.

SO THERE IS PLENTY OF TIME FOR INPUT AND THIS WAS INPUT.

>> 563 WASN'T FILED UNTIL MUCH LATER THAN THAT, RIGHT?

THERE HADN'T BEEN COMMITTEE IRREGULARS HEARINGS ON IT UNTIL THE LAST COUPLE WEEKS BEFORE THE SESSION WAS TO RECESS FOR A VETO PERIOD.

>> I WISH THEY WOULD HAVE PASSED THE BILL IN THE FIRST WEEK.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN MICE FOR ME.

BUT THERE'S NOTHING LIKE A DEADLINE TO GET FOLKS MOVING.

WE 2 GET PASSED AND THAT'S A GREAT THING.

IT'S SOMETHING WE'RE GRATEFUL FOR, BUT THIS ISSUE HAVE BEEN STUDIED.

THERE WERE MULTIPLE SESSIONS THIS SESSION.

AT LEAST THREE HEARINGS INVOLVED THE OPEN ENROLLMENT AND TWO ON THE OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNT PORTION OF THE BILL.

>> SO I WANT TO GET THE REACTION FROM THIS SIDE OF ROOM.

MR. CAMPBELL AND COMMISSIONER GLASS.

>> THANK YOU.

THE BILL DID COME LATE.

IT'S IN THE 25th 25th DAY OF THE 30-DAY SESSION AND THERE WERE INTENTIONAL EFFORTS TO LIMIT THE NUMBER OF KENTUCKIANS IN THIS.

I KNOW THE LANGUAGE IS LANGUAGE THAT WE HAVE SEEN FROM NON-PROFIT THINK TANKS THAT ARE FUNDED BY BILLIONAIRES ACROSS THE STATE.

WE SEE IT POP UP IN OTHER STATES.

IT'S TO BRING THIS LANGUAGE INTO KENTUCKY.

IF PRIVATE SCHOOLS WANT TO SUPPORT THE LOWEST INCOME STUDENTS IN KENTUCKY, I WOULD SUPPORT THAT, BUT LET'S REALLY LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD.

THAT MEANS THAT THE PRIVATE SCHOOLS SERVE ANY CHILD WHO WALKS IN THE DOOR WITH THE SAME FUNDING THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE, AND THEY'RE ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE SAME WAYS AND HELD TO THE SAME STANDARDS AND REGULATIONS.

THEY DON'T DISCRIMINATE AGAINST STUDENTS WHO HAVE DIFFERENT RELIGIONS.

THEY DON'T DISCRIMINATE AGAINST STUDENTS TO HAVE DISABILITIES.

SO IF YOU'RE GOING TAKE THE PUBLIC FUNDS, PICK UP THE MORAL RESPONSIBILITY THAT COMES WITH THOSE FUNDS TO SERVE EVERY CHILD.

>> AND TO THAT POINT, THIS COMMENT FROM KATE COOK FROM LOUISVILLE, AND THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT I WANTED TO SEGUE TO.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS MAKE ACCOMMODATIONS FOR ALL KIDS REGARDLESS OF RACE, SOCIOECONOMIC STATUS, GENDER OR ABILITY.

SCHOOL CHOICE WILL ALLOW TAX DOLLARS TO BE SPENT ON SCHOOLS AND SERVICES THAT DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THE THE SAME RULES OR TEACH OUR KIDS.

HOW IS THIS FAIR AND SAFE?

SUPERINTENDENT FIELDS, I'LL COME TO YOU TO ANSWER THAT BECAUSE THERE'S BEEN CONSIDERABLE DISCUSSION IN THE LEGISLATURE ABOUT THERE IS NO DIRECTIVE THAT IN THIS SCHOOL CHOICE BILL, THAT THEY HAVE TO SERVE KIDS OF ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT GROUPS THAT WE JUST MENTIONED.

THEY CAN STICK TO THEIR CREED.

SO TELL US HOW DOES THAT NOT RUN AFOUL OF WHAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE TO DO ALL THE TIME?

>> WELL, I THINK IN OUR COMMUNITY, LIKE CONNIVE TWO PRIVATE SCHOOLS WITHIN OUR BORDERS, BOTH OF THOSE DISTRICTS WE ADMINISTRATOR, ACTUALLY WE'RE GOING THROUGH A FEDERAL AUDIT RIGHT NOW OF OUR FEDERAL PROGRAMS THAT WE SEND BIG DEAL OF MONEY TO BOTH OF OUR PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS WITHIN OUR DISTRICT FOR STUDENTS OF POVERTY, FOR STUDENTS WHO HAVE DISABILITIES, FOR STUDENTS SPEAK ENGLISH AS A SECOND LANGUAGE, SO WE ARE SENDING MONEY TO THESE PRIVATE SCHOOLS ALREADY, AS WITH THE CARES MONEY THAT HAS RECENTLY BEEN SENT DOWN.

SO THE IDEA THAT THEY'RE NOT GETTING PUBLIC FUNDS IS NOT TRUE.

AND I GUESS WITH A WANT TO SAY IS I'M NOT HERE TO CARRY THE WATER FOR PRIVATE SCHOOL EDUCATION IN KENTUCKY, BUT THEY'RE NOT OUR END ME.

I THINK THAT WE'VE MADE EVERYBODY -- EVERYBODY'S OUR ENEMY, AND I THINK WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WAYS TO WORK TOGETHER.

IN OUR COMMUNITY WE WORK TOGETHER WITH OUR OTHER PUBLIC SCHOOLS, OUR PRIVATE SCHOOLS TO GIVE KIDS GOOD OPPORTUNITIES, AND SO THAT'S A DEBATE.

BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE'VE GOT TO REMEMBER THIS ISN'T -- THIS MAY HAVE BEEN RUSHED IN THE SENSE OF LATE IN THE SESSION, BUT WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS FOR OVER TEN YEARS.

JIM DECESARE, RETIRED LEGISLATE.

PROPOSED LEGISLATION THAT WE COULDN'T GET MOVED IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE.

WE HAVE HAD THIS INTERIM STUDY.

WE'VE HAD -- WE HAD MOVEMENT LAST YEAR BEFORE THE PANDEMIC HIT.

WE HAD SMAT SENATE BILL 170 WHICH WAS SENATOR WESTERFIELD -- I THANK HIM VERY MUCH -- VERY CLEAN CUT PUBLIC SCHOOL KNOWS.

THE PROBLEM IS, AND I APPRECIATE THE COMMISSIONER'S WORDS BECAUSE HE SAID IT ON AIR, AND I APPRECIATE HE'S WILLING TO LOOK AT THIS, BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION LAST THREE COMMISSIONERS HAVE BEEN AGAINST PUBLIC SCHOOL CHOICE, AND THEY'VE TOLD US THAT OUTWARDLY AND RULED AGAINST US.

THE K GROUPS HAVE BEEN NOWHERE TO BE FOUND.

KSS, WHICH IS A GROUP I'M A PART OF, THE SUPERINTENDENT'S.

>> SUPERINTENDENTS ASSOCIATION.

>> THE ASA, SCHOOL SUPERVISORS GROUP IN THE STATE,KEA, NO ONE WANTS TO STAND UP FOR THE BOWLING GREEN INDEPENDENTS, THE FAMILIES IN OUR DISTRICT, THE FAMILIES IN PAINTSVILLE, THE FAMILIES IN PINEVILLE.

ALL THESE DIFFERENT PLACES, UNTIL WE STARTED GETTING THE CALLS WHEN THE EOAs WERE ATTACHED TO THIS BILL.

THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN EVERYBODY WANTED US TO STEP BACK FROM SUPPORTIVING THIS BILL.

AND WE JUST HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT OUR TIME, WE'VE WORKED REALLY HARD FOR THIS.

IT'S ABOUT FAMILIES.

IT'S ABOUT CHOICE.

AND THIS IS HOW LEGISLATION IS MADE.

AND WE'VE WAITED FOR THE K GROUPS.

WE'VE WAITED FOR LARGE COUNTY DISTRICTS TO STAND UP AND SAY, INDEPENDENCE, WE SUPPORT UP.

SINCE THE CHARTER SCHOOL LEGISLATION IN 2017 THERE IS NOT ONE PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOL BEEN CREATED YET IN FOUR YEARS WITH, BUT IN THAT I'M TIME EV WOO LOST 60 STUDENTS FROM OUR COUNTY DISTRICT BECAUSE OF AN AGREEMENT BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO SEND US KIDS AP THOUGH THEY'RE GROWING EVERY 3-POINTER TEAK 60 WIDTH FROM US.

GRACELAND LOST 12 PERCENT OF END THEIR ENROLLMENT.

WE HAVE LOE FIVE INDEPENDENCE CONTRADICTS IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

SO FOR US IT'S A CRISIS OF THE INDEPENDENTS, AND NO ONE WANTS TO RECOGNIZE THAT, SO WHEN REPRESENTATIVE Mc McATTACKS ATTACHES TO THE BILL, THE PIECE THAT WE WANT IS IN THIS LEGISLATION, AND NO ONE WOULD SPEAK FOR US, AND SO WE HAD TO SPEAK FOR OURSELVES.

>> SO KEA, HOW YOU COME DON'T SPEAK FOR THE INDEPENDENTS LIKE MR. FIELDS AND OTHERS?

>> WE SUPPORTED ALL STUDENTS.

WOULDN'T ALL STUDENTS TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

AND THAT MEANS ALL OF OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, ALL OF OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE TO BE FULLY FUNDED.

AND UNTIL WE TAKE THAT MANTLE ON AND WE FULLY FUND PUBLIC EDUCATION AND OUR SEEK FUNDING IS UP TO DATE BECAUSE ANY DAY OR YEAR THAT WE DON'T PUT IN FUNDING TO SEEK A CUT TO PUBLIC EDUCATION.

THAT MEANS NOSE ARE DOLLARS, EVERYTHING ELSE GOES UP.

I'M NOT GOING TO DEBATE SCHOOL BOUNDARIES.

WE HAVE MEMBERS THAT SERVE ALL KIDS IN THESE IN BOTH SYSTEMS.

WOULDN'T TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL KIDS HAVE EVERY SINGLE OPPORTUNITY POSSIBLE, AND HAVING THAT OPPORTUNITY MEANS YOU HAVE HIGHLY QUALIFIED EDUCATOR THAT'S THERE TO EDUCATE THEM EVERY SINGLE DAY.

YOU HAVE PROGRAMS AND RESOURCES THAT ARE THERE FOR EVERY SINGLE STUDENT EVERY SINGLE DAY.

AND THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN KENTUCKY DO.

>> THERE'S SOMETHING I WANT TO JUMP IN HERE ON.

YOU KNOW, THIS MOTION THAT $25 MILLION IS SOMEHOW GOING TO HARM PUBLIC SCHOOLS IS JUST ASSEMBLY UNTRUE.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE STATES THAT HAVE THESE PROGRAMS, PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE DOING GREAT.

ALMOST ALL THE STUDIES HAVE LOOKED AT HOW THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE PERFORMING IN SCHOOL CHOICE STATES HAVE FOUND FOUND THAT THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE BOEING DOING PERIOD.

FLORIDA IS A GREAT EXAMPLE.

20 YEARS AGO THE JOKE WAS YOU SHOULD CALL FLORIDA, FLOR DUH BECAUSE THEY WERE GOING SO POOR.

WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE LAST 20 YEARS IS YOU'VE SEEN ACADEMIC OUTCOMES IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS INCREASE DRAMATICALLY AT THE SAME TIME THEY HAVE EXPANDED EDUCATIONAL CHOICE.

AND YOU HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS.

$25MILLION IS A VERY SMALL INVESTMENT IN OUR KIDS.

THIS IS GOING TO GIVE FAMILIES THE CHOICE THAT THEY HAVE SO DESPERATELY ASKED FOR OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.

SUPPORT PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THAT'S FINE PFM WE HAVE NOTHING AGAINST FUNDING PUBLIC SCHOOLS, BUT THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS CURRENTLY WILL HAVE ABOUT $8 BILLION IN FUNDING BETWEEN STATE, LOCAL AND FEDERAL DOLLARS.

WE'RE ONLY ASKING FOR A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT'S GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE LIVES OF THOUSANDS OF KIDS ACROSS THE STATE.

>> .2%.

>> .02% OF THE JENN FUND.

NOT 2%.

>> BUT LET ME ASK YOU, MR. DAN 75, WHAT WOULD BE WRONG WITH -- MAYBE IT'S TOO LATE -- FOR THE BILL HAVING HAD DIRECT LANGUAGE THAT WOULD ENSURE THAT PRIVATE AND PUBLIC SCHOOLS COULDN'T DISCRIMINATE BECAUSE OF RACE, IDENTITY, SEXUAL IN NATURE, OR ANY OTHER IDENTITY?

>> THERE'S THIS FALSE NOTION THAT NON-PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE THESE BAD PLACES FULL OF MALICIOUS PEOPLE THAT WANT TO HARM CHILDREN, AND THAT THAN THE COULDN'T BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

OUR SCHOOLS WANT TO SERVE.

THIS PAST YEAR WHEN A LOT OF PUBLIC SCHOOLS SHUT DOWN, OUR NON-PUBLIC SCHOOLS STEPPED UP AND THEY WERE SERVING HIGH NEEDS STUDENTS.

I KNOW SCHOOLS WHEN THE POVERTY RATE IS 60, 70 PERCENT.

AND SO THIS NOTION THAT WE DON'T WANT TO SERVE KIDS ARE WE'RE LOOKING TO TURN KIDS AWAY JUST UNTRUE.

NOW, WE TALK ABOUT CHOICE.

PARENTS ARE GOING TO HAVE DIFFERENT VALUES, AND SOMETIMES PARENTS' BELIEFS MAY NOT LINED UP WITH A PARTICULAR SCHOOL, AND THAT'S OKAY.

THEY MAY NOT WANT TO SEND THEIR CHILDREN THERE.

THIS IS ABOUT CHOICE.

NOBODY IS BEING FORCED TO SEND THEIR CHILD HAD TO A SCHOOL THAT THEY WOULDN'T AGREE WITH.

THERE'S EVEN OCCASIONS WHERE PARENTS MAYBE STREE WITH THE BLOWS A SCHOOL BECAUSE THEY STILL SEND THEIR KIDS THERE BECAUSE ACADEMICALLY THEY'RE YOU GOING TO DO PERT OR SOCIALLY, THEY'RE DEALING WITH BULLYING AND THEY HAVE TO GET THEIR KIDS OUT OF A SCHOOL.

THERE I WAS YOUNG IN AN IN ELIJAH HAS A GREAT STORY.

HE WAS AS QB QUEEN, BEING SEVERELY BULLIED TO THE POINT HE NEARLY TOOK HIS OWN LIFE, AND WHEN THAT HAPPENED HIS MOTHER SAID I'M ENROLLING NIM IN A SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT PROGRAM AND I'M GOING TO GET HIM INTO A NON-PUBLIC SCHOOL THAT WILL SUPPORT HIM, AND THAT YOUNG MAN IS THRIVING NOW, AND THOSE ARE THE FAMILIES WE'RE FIGHTING FOR INTEREST.

>> TO GO TO YOU, MS. HOLTSSTON BECAUSE MORGAN McGARVEY THE SENATE FLOOR LEADER MADE A COMMENT DURING THE FLOOR DEBATE LAST WEEK THAT -- OR MAYBE IT WAS THE COMMITTEE, EXCUSE ME -- THAT IN JEFFERSON COUNTY THE HALLMARK OF THEIR SYSTEM IS CHOICE, THAT THERE'S LOTS OF CHOICE WITH MAGNET SCHOOLS AND WHAT HE ALMOST CLASSIFIED AS BULK CHARTER SCHOOLS.

HE SAID THE ISSUE IS NOT ABOUT WHETHER CHOICE EXISTS.

IT'S ABOUT WHETHER PARENTS WHO ARE ABLE TO BE ENGAGED ENOUGH TO MAKE THAT CHOICE FOR A CHILD, THAT NO CHILD CAN FILL OUT THEIR OWN TAX SCHOLARSHIP APPLICATION, RIGHT?

SO IS THIS MISSING THE MARK IN THAT THERE'S STILL OVERNIGHT GOING TO BE PARENTS THAT ARE NOT TOUCHED BY THIS LEGISLATION BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE ACCESS TO MAYBE THE INTERNET OR THE OTHER MEANS OR TIME TO REALLY DEVOTE TO UNDERSTANDING WHAT THIS MEANS, LET ALONE UNDERSTANDING THE EDUCATION ACCOUNTS AND ALL OF THESE OTHER COMPLEX TERMS THAT SEEM MAYBE TO THEM OUT OF REACH FOR THEM.

HOW WOULD YOU DEFEND THAT?

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT THIS BILL IS TRYING TO SOLVE ALL OF THE DISPARATE PROBLEMS IN EDUCATION, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE, IN THE STATE, BUT ONE THING THAT I DID THINK WAS REALLY INCORPORATING WHEN SENATOR McGARVEY WAS TALKING ABOUT THE MAGNET SCHOOLS ALMOST BEING LIKE PUBLIC CHARTER SCHOOLS.

THERE'S A VERY IMPORTANT DISTINCTION IN THAT MAGNET SCHOOLS DO GET TO CHERRY-PICK THEIR STUDENTS AND CHARTER SCHOOLS DO NOT.

SO CHARTER SCHOOLS ARE COME ONE, COME ALL, AND, YOU KNOW, IT SOUNDS LIKE MAYBE HE'D BE A PROPONENT OF THAT, WHICH WE CERTAINLY HOPE SO.

IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE KENTUCKY IS ONE OF ONLY FOUR STATES IN THE COUNTRY THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY TYPE OF SCHOOL CHOICE.

SO THESE IDEAS ARE NOT REVOLUTIONARY THAT THIS BILL IS ATTEMPTING TO ENACT IN THE STATE.

KENTUCKY HAS NO CHARTER SCHOOLS, AS YOU KNOW.

WE HAVE A CHARTER LAUTT LAW BUT NOT SCHOOLS.

NO KIND OF PRIVATE SCHOOL CHOICE.

AND NO MANDATORY OPEN ENROLLMENT.

AND SO THIS BILL IS FIXING SOME OF THOSE PROBLEMS, AND THERE ARE STATES THAT ARE CELEBRATING THEIR 25th ANNIVERSARY OF SCHOOL CHOICE LEGISLATION, AND WE ARE STILL HAVING THESE DEBATES ABOUT SHOULD WE ENACT OUR VERY FIRST, VERY SMALL IN RELATION TO THE ENTIRE EDUCATION BUDGET, PROGRAMS.

SO IT'S IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF BEST PRACTICES AND IN A LOT OF OTHER STATES THAT WE HAVE LOOKED AT, ARE LOOKING AT, WILL CONTINUE TO LOOK AT IN ENACTING THESE PROGRAMS.

>> SO, ANNA BAUMANN WITH THE KENTUCKY CENTER FOR ECONOMIC POLICY, THIS IS JUST A PRIVATE PROGRAM.

FIVE-YEAR, TIME LIMITED AND THE $25 MILLION A YEAR WOULD GO FOR THOSE FIVE YEARS.

SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH TRYING THIS?

I THINK WE HEARD THAT A LOT DURING THE DEBATE.

WHY NOT SEE IF THIS PROVES TO BE EFFECTIVE FOR STUDENTS?

BUT I DO HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT HOW WILL WE KNOW THAT THEY'RE EVER WE'RE THERE?

ARE THERE PROVISIONS IN THE BILL THAT LAY OUT THE METRICS THAT MUST BE MET TO JUDGE WHETHER OR NOT IT'S SUCCESSFUL?

AND HAVE YOU FOUND THAT IN HOUSE BILL 563?

AND GIVE US YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> THANK YOU, YES.

THERE ARE SOME DATA REQUIREMENTS, BUT NO REAL STANDARDS FOR HOW WE'RE GOING TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THIS PROGRAM IS SUCCESSFUL.

IN TERMS OF THE FIRST QUESTION, YES, IT IS CAPPED AT $25 MILLION, AND OVER THE COURSE OF FIVE YEARS, THAT IS A GOOD BIT OF MONEY.

BUT WHAT WE KNOW FROM OTHER STATES ISY WHEN THEY OPEN THE DOOR TO VOUCHER PROGRAMS, WHICH IS WHAT THIS DOES, THOSE PROGRAMS GET BIGGER AND BIGGER OVER TIME.

THE FLORIDA PROGRAM WAS MENTIONED EARLIER.

THEIR PRIVATE SCHOOL TAX CREDIT PROGRAM COSTS NEARLY $900 MILLION THIS YEAR.

SO WE MAY BE TALKING ABOUT A LITTLE BIT NOW, BUT WE'RE OPENING TO THE DOOR TO A PROGRAM THAT WILL SIPHON RESOURCES OUT OF THE GENERAL FUND AND INTO PRIVATE SCHOOLS THAT ARE UNACCOUNTABLE TO ANY OF THE STANDARDS THAT OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE HELD TO, AND THEY'RE UNACCOUNTABLE TO PROTECTING STUDENTS FROM DISCRIMINATION AND TO SERVING STUDENTS NO MATTER WHERE THEY'RE FROM.

AND AGAIN, ALL OF THOSE STANDARDS ARE MET WHEN WE ADEQUATELY FUND PUBLIC EDUCATION.

AND LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE BIGGER CONTEXT TOO.

THIS BILL IS PART OF A NUMBER OF BILLS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED BY THE LEGISLATURE THIS YEAR THAT WILL DRAIN MORE RESOURCES OUT OF OUR GENERAL FUND AND MAY EVEN GET US A FEDERAL PENALTY, SO THERE'S A PROVISION IN THE AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN THAT SAYS STATES THAT PASS TAX CUTS OR THAT REDUCE NET REVENUE DURING THE PERIOD OF TIME THAT'S SET FORTH IN THE PLAN WILL HAVE TO PAY THAT AMOUNT BACKS TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

SO NOT ONLY WILL WE BE LOSING THAT $25 MILLION IN GENERAL FUND RESOURCES FROM THE PROGRAM ITSELF, BUT THEN WE MAY ALSO HAVE TO PAY THAT AMOUNT BACK TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AND THAT'S MONEY THAT SHOULD BE GOING INTO OUR COMMUNITIES AND TO OUR SCHOOLS AND HELPING STUDENTS WHO HAVE BEEN REALLY HARD HIT BY THIS PANDEMIC, AND COMMUNITIES, LOW-INCOME FAMILIES WHO HAVE REALLY STRUGGLED TO GET BY.

>> SO I WANT TO GET MORE TO THAT POINT AND ALSO SOME CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS THAT CAME EARLIER.

I WANT TO REVISIT THAT.

BUT I WANT TO GO TO YOU, MR. VANDIVER AND BE MR. FIELDS.

TO GET TO THE POINT ABOUT WHAT ARE THE MEASURES OF SUCCESS AND DOES THE BILL REALLY LAY OUT WHAT THOSE METRICS ARE.

ARE THEY STANDARDIZED TEST SCORES, GRADUATION RATES?

HOW WILL WE KNOW IT WORKED AFTER A FIVE-YEAR PERIOD OF TIME?

>> SO I WANT TO GET TO WHAT I THINK ARE, QUITE FRANKLY, ELITIST ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THIS PROGRAM.

SO NOBODY TALKS ABOUT OUR WEALTHY PARENTS WHO ALREADY HAVE CHOICE.

HOW ARE WE MEASURING THEM AND WHETHER THEY'RE GETTING TO THE RIGHT SCHOOL OR NOT?

IT'S ONLY WHEN LOWER-INCOME FAMILIES COME INTO THE EQUATION THAT WE START ASKING, CAN WE TRUST THEM TO MAKE A CHOICE?

DO THEY REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING?

AND I CAN TELL YOU I'VE MET PARENTS ALL ACROSS THIS STATE FOR WORKING CLASS FAMILIES.

THEY LOVE THEIR KIDS JUST AS MUCH AS WEALTHY FAMILIES, AND THEY DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO FETE THE EDUCATION SERVICE PROVIDERS THAT THEY'RE USING WHETHER THAT'S A NON-PUBLIC SCHOOLS OR ELSEWHERE.

THEY'RE ASKING AROUND.

THEY'RE DOING THE RESEARCH.

THEY'RE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO SEE THEIR CHILD SUCCEED.

AND SO I REALLY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT LINE OF THINKING AS FAR AS THOSE ARGUMENTS GO, THAT WE HAVE THE CHOOSERS AND THE NON-CHOOSERS.

PUT FAMILIES IN A POSITION TO CHOOSE, AND I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICES.

AND AS FAR AS THE ACCOUNT BILL, THE BILL DOES HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT REPORTS WALK TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

THE INCOMES OF THE FAMILIES BEING HELPED, HOW THE MONEY IS BEING USED, IT HAS AUDITS OF THE ACCOUNT GRANTING ORGANIZATION.

ALL THAT INFORMATION -- >> I'M TALK ABOUT ACADEMIC INFORMATION.

I UNDERSTAND THEY'RE ARE THERE ARE DMV PARTS THAT, AND THAT'S GOOD, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ACADEMIC PROGRESS?

HOW IS THAT GOING TO BE MEASURED?

AFTER THAT YOU WILL ALL WANT THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GETTING AT REMEMBER, RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THINGS LIKE TEST SCORES, TEST DISCOVERIES A USE BUT THAT SHOULDN'T BE A METRIC THAT ALL FAMILIES DON'T CARE ABOUT TESTERS AND, AND A LOT OF PUBLIC EDUCATORS.

I IMAGINE THE KEA HAS SOME PROBLEMS WITH THE EMPHASIS ON STANDARDIZED TESTING.

I KNOW THEY DO.

BUT WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THE URBAN INSTITUTE LOOKED A FLORIDA AND THE LONG-TERM OUTCOMES, COLLEGE ATTENDANCE, COLLEGE GRADUATION, AND JUST EYE POPPING NUMBERS.

I CAN TELL THAT YOU SHARP STUDENTS IN FLORIDA ACROSS THE BOARD OF LOWER-INCOME FAMILIES BECAUSE ALL THE KIDS IN FLORIDA ARE LOWER INCOME STUDENTS, THEY'RE 43% MORE LIKELY TO ATTEND A FOUR-YEAR COLLEGE IN THAT PROGRAM, 20% MORE LIKELY TO EARN A BACHELOR'S DEGREE, AND THEN IF THEY'RE IN THE PROGRAM FOR FOUR MORE YEARS, THEY'RE 99% MORE LIKELY TO ATTEND A FOUR-YEAR COLLEGE AND 45% MORE LIKELY TO GET BACHELOR'S DEGREE.

THOSE ARE THE TYPE OF OUTCOMES THAT I'M LOOKING AT.

IT'S THE LONG-TERM HEALTH OF STUDENTS AND HOW THEY'RE DOING, AND I TRUST PARENT TO FIGURE THAT OUT.

>> SO FOR THE FIRST FIVE YEARS THAT FLORIDA DID THESE SCHOOL CHOICE OPTIONS, DID THEY HAVE THAT KIND OF LEVEL OF SUCCESS OR HAS THAT BEEN OVER TIME?

BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN DOING THIS FOR SEVERAL YEARS.

SO IN THE FIVE YEARS CHACE HAD TO EXPERIMENT WERE THIS, ARE WE GOING ON TO SEE THOSE TYPE OF RESULTS?

>> I HOPE SO AND I THINK WE WILL.

THE THING ABOUT THIS PROGRAM, THIS PROGRAM HAS BEEN DEVELOPED OVER YEARS.

WE'VE TAKEN WHAT OTHER STATES HAVE DONE, THE BEST PRACTICES, AND PUT THEM INTO THIS LEGISLATION, AND WE'VE ALSO TALKED WITH A LOT OF THE STAKEHOLDERS HERE LOCALLY AND MADE THE BILL BETTER OVER TIME.

>> THE EDUCATION -- GO AHEAD.

>> I THINK WITH PUBLIC SCHOOL CHOICE, PARENTS ARE GOING TO DECIDE WHAT THEIR SEEK DOLLARS.

THAT'S GOING TO SHOW YOU IF A DISTRICT IS HAVING SUCCESS.

WHAT I PARENT COMMENTS TO THE BOWLING GREEN INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT THEY BRING THE SEEK DOLLARS WITH THEM.

THEY LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE DISTRICT.

IF THEY'RE NOT SATISFIED, THEY'RE GOING TO GO BACK TO THEIR HOME SCHOOL.

THE I THINK THIS OTHER POINT IS COMPETITION MAKES US ALL BETTER.

TRUST ME, WHEN STUDENTS ENROLLED FROM THE LOCAL PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS IN OUR DISTRICT, I'LL GIVE A HIGH FIVE.

THAT MEANS WE HAVE SOMETHING GOING ON, A PRODUCT THAT PARENTS WANT, AND THAT'S ENCOURAGING.

AND I THINK I'LL JUST END IT WITH KIND OF FOR BOTH SIDES, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY SEEMS TO BE VILIFYING POOR KIDS AND POOR PARENTS.

POOR PARENTS ARE ENGAGED IN THEIR CHILD'S EDUCATION.

THERE'S ALWAYS EXAMPLES OF -- THERE'S EXAMPLE OF WEALTHY PARENT THAT AREN'T ENGAGED EITHER.

WE NEED TO STOP WITH JUST BECAUSE OF I A FAMILY IS BOOR THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET THEIR KID ACTIVITIES.

WE'RE HAVING A BOOK FAIR AT ONE OUR POOR SCHOOLS, 98% POOR LUNCH, AND I SEE THOSE KIDS IN THERE AND BUYING BOOKS AND THEY SAID THEIR GRANDMA IS GIVING THEM MONEY AND THEIR PARENTS ARE GIVING THEM MONEY TO BUY -- THEY'RE INVOLVED IN THEIR CHILD'S EDUCATION.

SO I THINK WE DO A DISSERVICE TO POOR FAMILIES IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY YOU THE IT'S BY AJ LIKE SOMEBODY'S GOT TO TELL THEM WHAT TO DO BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FIGURE IT OUT THEMSELVES.

>> POINT TAKEN.

CHRISTIE FROM LOUISVILLE HAS THIS POINT THAT I THINK ADDS ON TO WHAT SUPERINTENDENT PHILS WAS TALKING ABOUT, COMMISSIONER GLASS AND HE SAYS WITH BILL WOULD BRING COMPETITION BACK INTO EDUCATION.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A GOOD TRACK RECORD FOR STUDENT QUIBBLES LOSE.

EDUCATION SHOULD BE A RIGHT.

ALL STAY TUNED STUDENTS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TIE GOOD EDUCATION.

AND SHE SEEMS TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THE WAY FOR GET THERE.

>> I THINK IT'S TIME THAT WE START TALKING ABOUT SCHOOL CHOICE IN KENTUCKY AND HOW THAT MIGHT FUNCTION, BUT I THINK THIS BEING BLOT FORWARD THIS LATE HALF-BAKED BILL WITH OUT-OF-STATE LANGUAGE IS HIGHLY PROBLEMATIC AND BRINGING IT FORWARD AND SAYING THINK IT'S FOR THE BENEFIT POOR STUDENTS I THINK IS NOT ACCURATE, EITHER.

WE DO HAVE 25 YEARS OF DIFFERENT STATES OPERATING THESE TYPES OF SCHEMES.

WE DON'T SEE POOR STUDENTS IN OTHER STATES LARGE IRRELEVANT LARGELY TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT TRANSPORTIVE.

SOMETIMES THEY DON'T HAVE THE SUPPORTS TO NAVIGATE THE COMPLEX TAX CREDIT STRUCTURE TO GET ACCESS TO THE FUNDS.

SOME OF THE SCHOOLS DON'T HAVE THE SUPPORTS NECESSARY IN TERMS OF LANGUAGE SUPPORTS OR COUNSELING SUPPORTS AVAILABLE.

SO I THINK WE HAVE A NUMBER OF GREAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN KENTUCKY WE HAVE A NUMBER OF GREAT PRIVATE SCHOOLS IN KENTUCKY.

SO IT'S NOTE AIR ZERO SUM GAME WHEN IT COMES TO GREATNESS.

BUT IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE SCHOOL CHOICE LAWS IN KENTUCKY, WHICH I SUPPORT, THEN LET'S SLOW DOWN AND DO THIS RIGHT.

WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO PUT IN PLACE GOOD PUBLIC POLICY BUT THIS RUSHED EXPERIENCE ISN'T GOING TO GET US THERE.

>> HOLD ON A SECOND HERE.

THE AVERAGE FAMILY INCOME IN FLORIDA OF THE SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT PROGRAM, THE LARGEST SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT PROGRAM IN THE YEAR IS $48,000 A YEAR.

ARE YOU TELLING ME THOSE FAMILIES ARE RICH?

>> WHAT I'M TELLING IS YOU WE'VE GOT 25 YEARS OF EVIDENCE ON THESE STUDENTS THAT SHOWS -- >> EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS IT WORKS.

>> LET ME FINISH.

ONCE THEE STUDENTS GO INTO THESE PRIVATE SCHOOL AND THEN THEY ARE WASHED OUT OR KICKED OUT OR REMOVED FOR WHATEVER REASON, THE EVIDENCE TELLS US THAT THEY PERFORM WORSE THAN STUDENTS WHO HAD STAYED IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

SO I THINK THAT TRYING TO CLOAK WHAT THIS IS ABOUT AND SAYING IT'S FOR LOW-INCOME STUDENTS IS JUST A RUSE.

IF WE REALLY WANT TO SUPPORT LOW-INCOME STUDENTS WITH PRIVATE SCHOOL TAX CREDITS, THEN LET'S I. INDEMNITY FIND A WAY QUESTIONABLE, THAT LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD BETWEEN PRIVATE AND PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

>> WE'VE BEEN AT WORK ON THIS FOR YEARS, LEGISLATORS HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD ON THIS BILL FOR YEARS.

IT'S REALLY AN ATTACK ON THEM AND AN ATTACK ON THE FAMILIES TO SAY THAT THIS IS HALF-BAKED AND, YEAH, YEAH.

THIS WERE DEVELOPED HERE IN KENTUCKY.

>> SO IT'S NOT A TEMPLATE OR A BOILERPLATE FROM A LENGTH OR OTHER ORGANIZATIONS THAT -- >> NO.

>> PLEASE.

>> WE TOOK WHAT INDEED ARE IN OTHER STATES, AND THAT WAS IMPORTANT.

WHY WOULD WE TRY TO REINVENT THE WHEEL WHEN WEAK TAKE THINGS THAT WORKED IN OTHER STATES?

>> HOW UNIQUE IS IT TO KENTUCKY?

>> IT'S VERY UNIQUE.

MAYBE THERE ARE THINGS, ASPECTS FROM OTHER STATES, BUT WHY WOULDN'T THERE BE?

OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS PROBABLY LOOK LIKE PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN OTHER STATES WHICH DOESN'T MEAN THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THEM.

IN FACT, I THINK COMMISSIONER GRASS IS GOING TEAK PRACTICES HE LEARNED IN COLORADO AND OTHER PLACES AND BRING THOSE TO KENTUCKY.

THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

AND THIS IDEA -- YOU'LL GET OTHER STATES, INDIANA FOR EXAMPLE HAS HAD HIGH SCHOOL CHOICE FOR SOME YEARS.

21 PERCENT OF STUDENTS OVERALL IN INDIANA OR 21% OF THE POPULATION IN INDIANA IS NON-WHITE.

41% OF THE STUDENTS IN THE SCHOOL CHOICE PROGRAM ARE NON-WHITE.

THIS PROGRAM DISPROPORTIONALLY HELPS THOSE FAMILIES WHO ARE STRUGGLING IN KENTUCKY.

WE WERE KNOW THE STRUGGLES OF BLACK FAMILIES IN KENTUCKY WHO YOU HAVE LARGE A INSURGENT OF KIDS IN THOSE SCHOOLS THAT CAN'T READ AT GRADE LEVEL, AND THAT'S AWFUL, AND THOSE FAMILIES ARE GETTING THE OPPORTUNITIES THEY'VE NEVER HAD BEFORE IN OTHER STATES, AND THIS IDEA -- I MEAN, IT'S IN THE BILL THAT THIS BILL PREDOMINANTLY FOCUSES ON LOWER-INCOME FAMILIES.

YOU CAN'T DISPUTE THAT.

IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE BILL.

>> SO IF IT'S ALL ABOUT KIDS, EDDIE CAMPBELL, WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?

IF THOSE WHO ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY NOT GETTING THE EDUCATION THIS THEY SHOULD AND THEY SHOULD DESERVE AND NEED, THEN IT SEEMS TO BE WORKING.

FLORIDA, INDIANA, TRACK RECORD SEEMS TO BE GOOD.

>> THEN WHY SHOULDN'T ALL OF OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS LOOK THAT WAY?

THIS DOESN'T PROVIDE ANY KIND OF THE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THOSE PUBLIC TAX DOLLARS.

IT DOESN'T PROVIDE ANY KIND OF OVERSIGHT FOR THOSE TAX DOLLARS BUT THOSE PUBLIC SCHOOLS DO THIS EVERY SINGLE DAY.

EVERY SERVICE THAT'S PROVIDED BY PUBLIC SCHOOLS IS REQUIRED BY LAW.

WE TALK ABOUT EDUCATION SERVICE PROVIDERS.

ALL THESE THINGS THAT ARE LISTED IN THIS BILL.

Y EVERYTHING IN THERE HAS TO BE PROVIDED BY OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

IF THIS SAME $25 MILLION OF TAX CREDIT THAT THEY'RE PROPOSING HERE WAS INVESTED IN EARLY CHILDHOOD, ALL THE STUDIES SHOW THAT EVERY DOLLAR YOU INVEST INTO EARLY CHILDHOOD PRE-SCHOOL, KINDERGARTEN, HEAD START, EVERY DOLLAR YOU PUT INTO THAT SHOWS SUCCESS ALL THE WAY THROUGH A STUDENT'S LIFETIME.

AND EVERY DOLLAR YOU INVEST RETURNS $7 OF THAT INVESTMENT.

SO WHY WOULDN'T WE BE PUTTING THIS FUNDING WHERE IT'S NEEDED MOST, AND THAT'S WERE WITH OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS HERE IN THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

I WANT TO CLEAR UP SOMETHING SAID IN THIS ROOM.

PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVE NOT BEEN SHUTDOWN.

OUR EDUCATORS HAVE BEEN WORKING LIKE CRAZY TO MAKE SURE THAT THE NEEDS OF THEIR STUDENTS HAVE BEEN MET OVER THIS PAST YEAR.

THEY HAVE LITERALLY MOVED MOUNTAINS FOR THEIR STUDENTS.

THEY HAVE CHANGED THEIR TEACHING PRACTICES.

THEY HAVE DEVELOPED NEW METHOD.

THEY WORKED ALL SUMMER TO PROVIDE PLATFORMS FOR THEIR STUDENTS TO BE SUCCESSFUL AND LEARN ON.

AND THEN THEY'RE WORKING BEYOND THE REGULAR SCHOOL DAY TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE CONNECTING WITH THOSE STUDENTS, TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE GETTING THE SUPPORTS THAT THEY NEED.

SO TO SAY THAT SCHOOLS IN E. COULD HAVE BEEN SHUTS DOWN THIS YEAR IS JUST WRONG BECAUSE OUR EDUCATORS HAVE BEEN MAKING SURE THAT OUR STUDENTS NEEDS ARE BEING MET.

>> IN-PERSON LEARNING IS REALLY IMPORTANT, AND I DO THINK THAT THE PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS HAVE LARGELY DONE THE BEST WITH WHAT THEY COULD IN THESE DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES.

I UNDERSTAND THAT.

IT'S NOT EASY ON ANYONE.

EVERYONE WANTS TO BE BACK IN SCHOOL.

I UNDERSTAND THAT.

BUT DURING THIS SITUATION WE HAVE HAD SCHOOLS WHO HAVE HAD -- NOT HAD IN-PERSON LEARNING FOR SOME TIME, AND I'M A PARENT OF A CHILD WITH ADHD AND HE COULD NOT SIT IN FRONT OF A COMPUTER ALL DAY AND LEARN A THING.

FORTUNATELY, WE HAD THE FINANCIAL MEANS TO SEND HIM TO A SCHOOL HERE HEE WAS GETTING IN-PERSON LEARNING THROUGHOUT MOST OF THE YEAR.

HERE'S A KINDERGARTNER.

HE'S READING, DOING GREAT.

HE'S HAPPY.

BUT I KNOW A LOT OF FAMILIES THAT DO NOT HAVE THOSE OPTIONS.

HAVE THEIR KIDS ARE CRYING BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO DO NTI.

THEY HAD FALLEN BEHIND.

IF WE HAD A PROGRAM LIKE THIS WOULD HAVE GIVEN A LOT OF THOSE LOWER INCOME FAMILIES AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE BECAUSE YOU TALK ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY.

IT LIES WITH THE PARENTS WITH A PROGRAM LIKE THIS.

IT GIVES PARENTS THE POWER TO SAY, IF THE SCHOOL THAT I'M ASSIGNED TO IS NOT DOING WHAT I WANT, I'M GOING TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE, AND THAT MIGHT BE A DIFFERENT PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT.

I KNOW THAT BOWLING GREEN INDEPENDENT SCHOOLS HAVE BEEN OPEN SINCE AUGUST FOR IN-PERSON LEARNING.

>> I WANT TO GET TO MS. UHLSTON IS ASK HER ABOUT THE ACCOUNTABLE PIECE WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION SERVICE PROVIDERS, AND THIS MAY BE THAT GO THAT ANDREA YOU NEED SYNDROME IN OPEN YOU.

HOUSE WILL 5 SKY3 DOESN'T DETAIL OUR PUBLIC SERVICE PROVIDERS ARE TO BE CREDENTIALED.

EVEN IF THEY ARE.

BACKGROUND CHECKS ARE NOT REQUIRED.

SAME KIND OF REGULATIONS THAT ARE OFTEN PUT ON PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS WE DON'T SEE FOR THESE EDUCATION SERVICE PROVIDERS.

IS THAT FAIR IN YOUR VIEW?

>> WELL, ACTUALLY I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING THAT I THINK IT WAS MR. CAMPBELL THAT I CAN'T ACTUALLY SEE THE REST OF YOU ON THE SCREEN, BUT I THINK MR. CAMPBELL WAS TALKING ABOUT PRIVATE SCHOOLS AND THEIR ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND I WANTED TO MAKE THE POINT THAT THEY ALSO GO THROUGH AN ACCREDITATION PROCESS WITH THE STATE.

AND THE ENTIRE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNT PROGRAM IS OVERSEEN BY THE STATE STATE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE.

SO THE FEAR THAT THESE PROGRAMS WILL JUST BE -- WILL OPERATE WITHOUT -- LIKE THE WILD WEST WITH NO LAWS AND NO RULES IS REALLY NOT GOING TO BE THE CASE IN PRACTICAL TERMS.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT FLORIDA ACHIEVEMENT, AND I HAVE ONE PIECE -- ONE STICKS THAT I REALLY WANT TO SHARE -- STICKS TICK.

IN 1992 THE NAEP SCORES FOR BLACK STUDENTS IN KENTUCKY OUTPERFORMED BLACK STUDENTS IN FLORIDA IN FOURTH GRADE READING BY 11 POINTS.

FAST FORWARD TO 2019, AND KENTUCKY STILL HAS NO CHOICE PROGRAMS AND ANOTHER VARIETY OF OTHER NARCOTICS, BUT FLORIDA STUDENTS, BLACK STUDENTS IN FLORIDA OUTSCORED KENTUCKY'S BY 12 POINTS BY THAT TIME.

AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THOSE ARE THE REAL STICKS TIS THAT WE NEED TO BE LOOK LIKE AT -- STATISTICS AND SAYING WHAT CAN WE DO TO HAVE THAT KIND OF CITIES, AND IS THIS OKAY WITH US.

>> SO FINALLY WAS AS WE HAVE JUST A COUPLE MINUTES REMAINING WI WANT THE GET, MS. BY A MINNESOTA TO EXECUTION.

SECTION 183 HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP AND SECTION 89.

IT'S ABOUT THE COMMON SCHOOLS, A SYSTEM OF COMMON SCHOOLS IN THE CONSTITUTION AND ALSO THAT NO PORTION OF ANY FUND OR TAX NOW EXISTING OR THAT MAY HERE AFTER BE RAISED OR LEVIED FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES SHALL BE APPROPRIATED CHURCH, SECTARIAN OR DENOMINATIONAL SCHOOL.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HOUSE BILL 563 IS CONSTITUTIONAL?

>> WELL, OTHER STATES THAT HAVE TRIED THIS QUESTION IN COURT HAVE DECIDED THAT IF STATES SPEND MONEY ON PRIVATE SCHOOLS THROUGH THE TAX CODE, TO HEAVEN IF THEY HAVE AN AMENDMENT PROHIBITING SPENDING ON PRIVATE RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS, THAT THAT'S STILL ALLOWABLE.

>> OKAY.

I'M GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

MR. VANDIVER REAL QUICKLY.

>> THIS HAS BEEN LITIGATED ACROSS THE COUNTRY, UP TO THE SUPREME COURT THREE TIMES AND WE HAVE WON EVERY SINGLE TIME.

PARENTS ARE ENTITLED TO CHOICE.

>> THANK YOU PALM IT'S BEEN A REALLY GOOD DISCUSSION.

I APPRECIATE IT.

ITS SEEMS ONLY FITTING THAT HEREAFTER A ROBUST DISCUSSION ABOUT SCHOOL CHOICE THAT WE REMEMBER A GIANT IN KENTUCKY JOURNALISM WHO EL CATED IRREGULARS USUALS IN SO MANY PROGRAMS HE MODERATED MR. AL SMITH.

MR. SMITH PASSED AWAY FRIDAY NEWS OF WHICH BROKE ON THE SHOW HE CREATED WITH "COMMENT ON KENTUCKY."

WORKED WITH AL FOR NEARLY 11 YEARS AND I REMEMBER HIM WITH ARMS FULL OF NEWSPAPERS SKITING INTO KET ON FRIDAY NIGHTS WITH HANDWRITTEN NOTES THAT WERE ALLEGEDLY A SHOW RUN DOWNTOWN LIVE BROADCAST TO COME.

THE TO EXPRESS HOW MUCH MR. SMITH WENT TO KENTUCKY, THE JOURNALISM COMMUNITY, KET AND THE KET STAFF, I WOULD NEED AN HOUR.

HIS LOVE FOR OUR COMMONWEALTH WAS UNDENIABLE AND THE FORUM HE CREATED TO DEBATE ITS ISSUES AND CELEBRATE ITS TRIUMPHS REMAINS THE GOLD STANDARD BY WHICH THE REST OF US WILL STRIVE.

I AND OTHERS WILL CLING HAD TO MEMBERS OF HIS FEISTY SPIRIT, CURIOSITY AND DEEP PASSION TO CONNECT OUR EXPERIENCES AND ELEVATE RURAL COMMUNITIES.

THANK YOU, MR. ALBERT P. SMITH, FOR ALL YOU HAVE DONE FOR ME AND COUNTLESS OTHERS.

MAY WHAT WE DO MAKE YOU PROUD WERE AND SMILE IN THE GREAT BEYOND.

GOD BLESS YOU, MR. SMITH.

OUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE WITH HIS CHILDREN AND HIS DEVOTED WIFE, MARTHA HELEN.

THANK YOU ALL FOR WATCHING TONIGHT.

I'M RENEE SHAW.

TAKE REALLY GOOD CARE, AND I WILL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.