WELCOME TO "KENTUCKY TONIGHT."

I'M RENEE SHAW.

THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

OUR TOPIC TONIGHT: SCHOOL CHOICE.

TODAY FRANKLIN CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE PHILLIP SHEPHERD CLARIFIE HIS RULING ON KENTUCKY'S SO-CALLED SCHOOL CHOICE LAW.

HE RULED PART OF THE LAW UNCONSTITUTIONAL ON OCTOBER 8TH TODAY HE SAID HIS RULING DOES NOT APPLY TO SECTIONS OF THE BILL DEALING WITH OPEN ENROLLMENT POLICIESAL BUT HIS RULING DOES APPLY TO THE LAWS EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS.

P UNDER THAT PART OF THE LAW KENTUCKIANS COULD RECEIVE A TAX CREDIT IF THEY RECEIVED MONEY TO THAT ACCOUNT MONEY FROM THAT ACCOUNT COULD THEN BE USED TO HELP PARENTS PAY SCHOOL EXPENSE JUDGE SHEPHERD AGREED WITH SCHOOL CHOICE CRITICS WHO SAID UNDER THE BILL MONEY MEANT FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS WOULD END UP GOING TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

BACKERS OF SCHOOL CHOICE THEY SAY POSSIBLY PLANNING AN appeal TO DISCUSS THAT RULING AND THE PROS AND CONS OF SCHOOL CHOICE, WE ARE JOINED IN OUR LEXINGTON STUDIO BY: ANDREW VANDIVER, PRESIDENT OF EDCHOICE KENTUCKY.

BRIGITTE BLOM, PRESIDENT AND CE OF THE PRICHARD COMMITTEE FOR ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE.

JIM WATERS, PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE BLUEGRASS INSTITUTE FOR PUBLIC POLICY SOLUTIONS.

AND TOM SHELTON, SPOKESMAN FOR THE COUNCIL ON BETTER EDUCATION.

WE WETTER THAN WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU SO SEND US A question OR COMMENT ON TWITTER @KYTONIGHTKE SEND AN EMAIL TO KYTONIGHT@KET.

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AND WE WANT TO GET TO THE LATEST NEWS THAT HAPPENED.

I JUST ALLUDED TO IT RIGHT AT THE VERY TOP.

HERE'S SOME SOUND FROM LANK LYNN CIRCUIT COURTS JUDGE PHIL SHEPHERD LAYER COLLEAGUE THE RULING ON HOUSE BILL 563.

>> SO LET ME REITERATE THAT THE COURT'S RULING DOES NOT APPLY IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM TO SECTIONS 1 THROUGH 4 OF THE BILL, AND I WILL, YOU KNOW, SPELL THAT OUT AGAIN, AND OBVIOUSLY THE COURT DID USE SHORTHAND, I GUESS, IN REFERRING TO HOUSE BILL 563 WITHOUT SPECIFICALLY SPECIFYING THAT THE COURT'S REFERENCE TO HOUSE BILL 563 IN THE, IN THE RULING WAS A REFERENCE TO SECTIONS 5 THROUGH 17 OF THE BILL, AND AGAIN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SECTIONS 1 THROUGH 4, AND APPARENTLY THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION HAS, YOU KNOW, APPARENTLY HAS CONSTRUED THE COURT'S RULING IN THAT RESPECT, AND I'LL STRAIGHTEN THAT OUT.

>> A STATEMENT THAT WAS ISSUED BY A SPOKESPERSON FROM THE KENTUCKY DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION GIVEN IN AFTERNOON READS THIS, AND WE WILL PUT IT TO THE SCREEN P WHILE WE HAVE NOT SEEN ANY WRITTEN ORDER CLARIFYING THE COURT'S OCTOBER 8th OPINION AND ORDER, WE ARE PLEASED TO HEAR THE COURT INTENDS TO PROVIDE CLARIFICATION ON THIS MATTER.

THE COURT'S OKAY L. OCTOBER 8th ORDER REFERRED TO HOUSE BILL 563 IN ITS ENTIRETY.

FOLLOWING THE HEARING THIS MORNING K DEVELOPMENT UNDERSTANDS THE COURT WILL CLARIFY IN WRITING THAT ITS OCTOBER 8th ORDER DOES NOT APPLY TO SECTIONS 1 THROUGH 4 OF HOUSE BILL 563.

WITH THIS MUCH NEEDED CLARIFICATION K DEVELOPMENT WILL MOVE FORWARD WITH CLARIFICATION EFFORTS REGARDING SECTIONS HB 563.

LATER ON THIS AFTERNOON WE RECEIVED THIS STATEMENT FROM BENFIELD WHO IS AN TERN FROM THE SUBSTITUTE FOR JUSTICE THAT INTERVENED INPORT OF LAW THAT READS, THE KENTUCKY CONSTITUTION HAS NO PROVISIONS THAT PREVENT THE COMMONWEALTH FROM PROVIDING TAX CREDIT TOSS SUPPORT GIVING FAMILIES ALTERNATIVES TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.

WE LOOK FORWARD TO VINDICATING THIS FACT ON APPEAL AND ULTIMATELY AT THE KENTUCKY SUPREME COURT.

SO WITH ALL THAT SET UP THERE, I'M GOING TO GO RIGHT TO YOU, TOM SHELTON, TO STRAIGHTEN OUT HOW THE COUNCIL FOR BETTER EDUCATION, WHAT YOU WERE FILING FOR IN JUNE, AND DID YOU GET THE CLARIFICATION YOU WERE SEEKING, AND DID JUDGE SHEPHERD'S CLARIFICATION TODAY MAKE IT EVEN MORE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE AFTER?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE NEVER, AS PART OF OUR FILING HAD NEVER HAD ANY PORTION OF THE OPEN BORDERS PROVISIONS, AS IT'S CALLED AS PART OF OUR FILING AS PART OF OUR SUIT.

IT WAS NEVER CONSIDERED.

IT WAS NEVER DISCUSSED.

THE ONLY PORTION THAT WE DISCUSSED WERE THE SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDITS, AND THAT WAS A PORTION THAT WE HAD ASKED FOR THE MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT FOR JUDGE SHEPHERD TO DECLARE THOSE UNCONSTITUTIONAL, WHICH HE DID.

WE BELIEVE THE ORIGINAL ORDER WAS CLEAR.

BUT THERE WERE SOME WHO THOUGHT THAT THERE WAS SOME QUESTION, INCLUDING SOME OF THE INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICTS WHO ALSO FILED A MOTION FOR CLARIFICATION TODAY THAT JUDGE SHEPHERD DENIED AS WELL.

BUT IT WAS CLEAR TO US IN THE ORIGINAL RULING ON OCTOBER 8th AND IT WAS EVEN MORE CLEAR TODAY THAT THIS WAS ONLY ABOUT THE PORTION THAT WE HAD ASKED FOR IN OUR ORIGINAL FILING RELATED TO THE SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDITS.

>> SO YOU DON'T HAVE ANY QUALMS WITH THE REST OF HOUSE BILL 563?

>> NO.

COUNSEL FOR BETTER EDUCATION DID NOT CONSIDER THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, AS HAS BEEN MENTIONED AND IS CLEAR, THAT'S COMPLETELY LEGAL.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONSTITUTION ABOUT THE OPEN BORDERS PROVISIONS, AND SO WE ONLY SOUGHT TO FILE AGAINST THINGS THAT OUR ATTORNEYS ADVISED US WERE VIOLATIONS OF THE CONSTITUTION.

>> AND SO GIVE US A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE CONTEXT AND THE HEART OF YOUR ARGUMENT ABOUT THESE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS.

WHAT'S YOUR BEEF?

>> SO BASICALLY WHEN A SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT, GIVEN AS A TAX CREDIT, IT'S A DOLLAR-FOR-DOLLAR REDUCTION IN THE TAX LIABILITY OF THE DONOR, SO TECHNICALLY IT'S NOT LIKE A DEDUCTION THAT YOU WOULD TAKE ON YOUR TAX RETURN WHEN YOU MAKE A CONTRIBUTION.

IT IS A TAX CREDIT.

SO IT'S NOT REDUCING YOUR TAXABLE INCOME.

IT'S REDUCING THE ACTUAL AMOUNT OF TAX YOU OWE.

AND TECHNICALLY YOU WOULD ACTUALLY NOT BE MAKING A DONATION BECAUSE ONCE YOU'RE GIVEN THAT MONEY BACK THROUGH A TAX CREDIT, IT'S DOLLAR-FOR-DOLLAR OFFSET TO THE AMOUNT THAT YOU CONTRIBUTED.

SO SINCE THIS WOULD BE A REDUCTION IN REVENUE TO GO TO THE GENERAL FUND AND OUR CONSTITUTION IN KENTUCKY VERY SPECIFICALLY SAYS THAT IN KENTUCKY NO PUBLIC FUNDS CAN BE USED FOR PRIVATE SCHOOL PURPOSES, THAT WAS THE REASON THAT WE SUED.

>> ANDREW VAN DID I EVER WITH EDCHOICE KENTUCKY, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE AGAIN ON THIS ISSUE.

WHAT DID YOU TAKE AWAY FROM JUDGE SHEPHERD'S CLARIFICATION TODAY?

AND I'M SURE WE KNOW THAT THE INSTITUTE IS PLANNING ON APPEAL.

YOU SUPPORT THAT.

AND WHERE DO YOU STAND ON ALL THIS?

>> WE ABSOLUTELY SUPPORT THE APPEAL.

EDUCATIONAL CHOICE IS COMING TO KENTUCKY AND THIS DECISION IS NOT GOING TO IMPACT THAT BECAUSE, FOR ONE, WE KNOW THAT THE PROGRAM IS YOU CONSTITUTIONAL.

WE KNOW IT'S CONSTITUTIONAL BECAUSE SIMILAR PROGRAMS HAVE BEEN UPHELD ACROSS THE COUNTRY OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, SO IF FIRST TAX CREDIT PROGRAM WAS PASSED IN THE LATE 90sNESSES ARIZONA.

SINCE THAT TIME THERE'S BEEN 23 PROGRAMS THAT HAVE PASSED ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND EVERY TIME -- >> THAT ARE VERY SIMILAR TO HOW KENTUCKY'S WAS DEVISED?

>> VERY SIMILAR AND SIMILAR CONSTITUTION AND IN EVERY ONE OF THOSE INSTANCES THE STATE SUPREME COURT HAS UPHELD THOSE PROGRAMS.

THE ONLY EXCEPTION WAGS THE MONTANA STATE SUPREME COURT.

IN THAT INSTANCE THEY STRUCK DOWN THE PROGRAM.

THAT -- THE PARENTS ARE INVOLVED IN THAT LAWSUIT, APPEALED TO THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT, AND THE U.S. SUPREME COURT ACTUALLY REINSTATED THE PROGRAM.

SO YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A PERFECT LEGAL REPORT RECORD WHEN IT COMES TO THESE TYPES OF PROGRAMS, AND FOR THAT REASON I'M CONFIDENT THAT THE KENTUCKY SUPREME COURT WILL ULTIMATELY UPHOLD THE PROGRAM.

ALSO, IT'S JUST THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS A PROGRAM THAT'S GOING TO BENEFIT THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES ONCE IT'S IMPLEMENTED.

FAMILIES THAT JUST WANT WHAT'S BEST FOR THEIR KIDS.

THEY WANT TO GET THEIR CHILDREN IN A CLASSROOM THAT IS GOING TO WORK GUESS FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

I'M CONFIDENT NOT ONLY IS THE COURT GOING TO UPHOLD THE PROGRAM BUT THE LEGISLATURE IS GOING TO COME BACK, BUBBLE DOUBLE DOWN, EXPAND THIS PROGRAM HOPEFULLY STATEWIDE, THEY'RE GOING TO DO A LOT OF GOOD THING HERE IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THAT THIS IS A SETBACK AND WE'RE DISAPPOINTED ABOUT THIS, BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE IN KENTUCKY IS A SHIFT.

WE'RE SEEING A SHIFT BECAUSE KENTUCKIANS WANT TO SEE A STUDENT-FOCUSED EDUCATION PLATFORM.

THEY WANT TO SEE A -- THEY WANT TO SEE POLICIES THAT FUND STUDENTS, NOT SYSTEMS, AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING WITH THIS LAWSUIT IS THE SYSTEM'S FIGHTING BACK.

THEY'RE FIGHTING THE CHANGES THAT ARE COMING TO KENTUCKY BECAUSE IT MAKES ONE COMFORTABLE.

THEY FEAR CHANGE.

BUT THE CHANGE IS GOOD AND IT'S BEEN GOOD IN MORE STATES, AND THAT'S WHY I'M CONFIDENT THAT IN THE END PARENT GOING TO PREVAIL, AND I'M PROUD TO STANT WITH THOSE FIGHTING THIS LAWSUIT.

>> AND WE'LL GET BACK TO YOU ANDY HAVE YOU EXPLAIN.

MR. YOU WATERS, OTHER STATES HAVE ACTUALLY BENEFITED FROM THIS.

LET'S DO YOU, MS. BLOM, ABOUT WHAT THE PRICHARD'S COMMITTEE'S STANCE IS ON THIS.

YOU'VE TESTIFIED ABOUT IT, AGAINST THIS ISSUE WHEN IT CAME UP BEFORE THE KENTUCKY GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THE RULING TODAY?

AND ARE YOU SATISFIED?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THE COMMITTEE HAS A SINGULAR MISSION, AND THAT IS TO PROMOTE VASTLY IMPROVED EDUCATION OUTCOMES IN THE STATE.

TAX CREDITS, SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDITS ARE NOT GOOD POLICY BASED ON THE RESEARCH THAT CURRENTLY EXISTS.

THERE'S INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE THAT SCHOLARSHIPPING KIDS INTO PRIVATE SCHOOLS INCREASES ACADEMIC OUTCOMES.

IN FACT, THERE'S RESEARCH THAT SHOWS THAT IT CAN NEGATIVELY IMPACT EDUCATION OUTCOMES.

SO FOR THE PUBLIC DOLLAR, THIS IS A BAD INVESTMENT AND IT'S BAD PUBLIC POLICY.

SO WE HAVE CONSISTENTLY SAID THAT AS THESE BILLS HAVE COME TO THE LEGISLATURE.

WE'RE OPPOSED WHEN THIS BILL CAME UP IN THE LAST SESSION, CONCERNED WHEN IT PASSED.

$25MILLION OUT OF THE GENERAL FUND TO DR. SHELTON'S POINT.

THIS IS SPENDING INTO THE TAX CODE TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

AND SO THAT $25 MILLION, WHAT IS THE OPPORTUNITY COST OF THAT $25 MILLION?

WHAT ELSE COULD BE DONE WITH THAT $25 MILLION THAT ACTUALLY DOES IMPROVE EDUCATION OUTCOMES IN THE STATE.

>> SO DID YOU HAVE ANY QUALMS WITH THE OTHER PROVISIONS OF HOUSE BILL 563, SUCH AS THE OPEN BORDERS, WHICH YOU SHOULD EXPLAIN, ALLOWED THE MONEY TO FOLLOW THE STUDENT IF THEY GO OUTSIDE OF DISTRICT.

AND THIS IS NOT JUST FOR PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

THIS IS FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS AS WELL.

>> THAT'S RIGHT, AND THAT'S AN IMPORTANT NOTE.

SO OPEN ENROLLMENT IS IF I LIVE IN PENDLETON COUNTY AND I WANT MY CHILD TO GO TO BRACKEN COUNTY SCHOOLS, OPEN ENROLLMENT ALLOWS ME TO DO THAT WITHOUT PURSUING EACH DISTRICT TO ALLOW ME TO MOVE MY CHILD.

THE PRITCHARD COMMITTEE HAS NOT HAD A DECISION ON OPEN ENROLLMENT.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT FIXED COST AND -- BUT WE HAVE NOT HAD A POSITION ON OPEN ENROLLMENT.

WHEN WE ASKED PARENTS LONG BEFORE COVID, WHEN WE ASKED PARENTS ABOUT THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF CHOICE, THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF CHOICE IN KENTUCKY WAS ABOUT OPEN ENROLLMENT, NOT ABOUT MOVING THEIR KIDS INTO PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT WHEN WE USED THE TERM "CHOICE," PARENTS HAVE CHOICES NOW, SO THERE ISN'T A LACK OF CHOICES.

PRIVATE SCHOOL DOES COST THE PARENTS, FAMILIES TUITION MONEY WHERE PUBLIC SCHOOL IS FREE, SO THE CHOICE IS THERE, AND DONORS CAN CURRENTLY DONATE FOR PRIVATE SCHOLARSHIP, KIDS AND FAMILIES WITH LIMITED MEANS.

CHOICE IS HERE.

THIS IS ABOUT THE MECHANISMS THAT INCENTIVIZE DONATIONS INTO PRIVATE SCHOOL SCHOLARSHIP FUNDS.

>> JIM WATERS.

>> SO WE WILL ALLOW PEOPLE TO MAKE THESE CONTRIBUTIONS BUT WE DON'T WANT TO ENCOURAGE TOO MUCH OF THAT IS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

THE JUDGE -- JUDGE SHEPHERD, I DON'T THINK HE CLARIFIED SOME THINGS IN THIS RULING.

FOR EXAMPLE, HE SAID THAT THIS TAKES MONEY AWAY FROM PUBLIC EDUCATION, THIS BILL, AND YET THERE'S A PART OF THE BILL, A BIG PART OF THE BILL WHICH YOU CAN USE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS, PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS CAN, FOR EDUCATIONAL SERVICES THAT THEY NEED, TUTORING OR EXTRA HELP OR MORE LEARNING DISABLE CHILDREN BEING ABLE TO GET THERAPIES AND SERVICES, SO HOW IS THAT -- IF THAT'S BEING USED BY YOU WILL BE.

SCHOOL STUDENTS, HOW IS THAT TAKING MONEY AWAY FROM PUBLIC EDUCATION?

WHAT IT DOES DO IS IT TAKES CONTROL AWAY FROM THE SYSTEM AND GIVES MORE OF THE CONTROL AND MORE OF THE SAY OF WHERE THE DOLLARS GO TO THE PARENTS, AND I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT.

IN TERMS OF THIS TAX CREDIT, AND YOU MADE A BIG DEAL ABOUT $25 MILLION, THIS IS A TINY PROGRAM COMPARED TO MANY OF THE TAX CREDITS WE HAVE IN KENTUCKY.

THIS YEAR THE LEGISLATURE BROUGHT BACK $75 MILLION FILM TAX CREDIT.

WE'RE HEARING NOTHING ABOUT THAT FROM THE ESTABLISHMENT, FROM THOSE WHO OPPOSE SCHOOL CHOICE.

WE'RE HEARING NOTHING ABOUT MANY OF THESE LARGE TAX CREDITS THAT ARE GIVEN NOW.

SO I I DON'T THINK IT'S SO MUCH ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF MONEY ON THAT.

RATHER, I THINK IT'S ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY CANNOT CONTROL HOW THESE DOLLARS ARE SPENT AND THAT THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE CONTROL OF THIS.

SO I AGREE WITH ANDREW.

I THINK EDUCATION DOLLARS ARE TO FUN STUDENTS, NOT SYSTEMS -- FUND STUDENTS, NOT SYSTEMS, AND IF THIS REALLY WAS ABOUT THE DOLLARS AND THE SIZE OF THIS PROGRAM WE WOULD HEAR LOTS OF OPPOSITION TO ALL OF THESE TAX CREDITS, BUT WE HAVEN'T HEARD THAT BECAUSE I DON'T THINK IT'S REALLY ABOUT THAT.

>> WE DO HEAR OPPOSITION TO TAX CREDITS.

IT'S NOT ON THAT PROGRAM.

>> I HAVEN'T HEARD IN IT THIS DISCUSSION.

>> WE'LL SEE IF WE CAN GET TO IT.

WE DID CATCH UP WITH McQUAY A McFARY.

THAT'S A FAMILIAR NAME TO YOU.

SHE IS PART OF THE INSTITUTE FOR JUSTICE AND SHE WILL BE PART POSSIBLY OF THE LAWSUIT, THE A BEEL THAT WILL BE FILED AND SHE TALKED WITH US ON FRIDAY ABOUT WHY THIS IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT ISSUE TO HER AND HER FAMILY.

>> A KIA McNEARY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR A FEW MINUTES.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> NO PROBLEM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> I KNOW THAT YOU'VE BEEN AN ADVOCATE FOR SCHOOL CHOICE IN KENTUCKY FOR A LONG.

>> YES.

>> SO I WANTED TO ASK YOU, YOU'RE A MOTHER OF THREE SCHOOL AGED CHILDREN.

IS THAT RIGHT IF YOU HAVE FOUR BUT YOU HAVE THREE CURRENTLY IN SCHOOL?

>> YES, I DO.

>> SO TELL MY WHY YOU'VE BEEN AN ADVOCATE FOR SCHOOL CHOICE AND YOUR REACT TO THE RECENT CIRCUIT COURT RULING ABOUT HOUSE BILL 563.

>> I ACTUALLY THAT STARTED BECAUSE I FELT THERE WAS A NEED DEFINITELY IN MY COMMUNITY WHERE OUR CURRENT ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IS AND MIDDLE SCHOOL DOES NOT -- ARE NOT PROFICIENT IN READING AND MATH.

THAT MEANS A MAJORITY OF STUDENTS THAT COME OUT OF OUR SCHOOL DISTRICT NOT ABLE TO READ OR WRITE OR DO MATH AT GRADE LEVEL.

>> SO WHAT ABOUT YOUR OWN CHILDREN?

HOW WAS THEIR ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE?

>> I HAVE ONE, MY OLDEST ONE THAT IS NOT IN SCHOOL.

HE WENT TO THE CURRENT MIDDLE SCHOOL.

HE WAS BULLIED REALLY BAD AND I FELT THAT ADMINISTRATION DIDN'T HANDLE IT WELL.

SO I TOOK A FINANCIAL HARDSHIP CHOICE AND PLACED HIM INTO HERITAGE CHRISTIAN ACADEMY WHICH WAS ONE OF THE LOCAL PRIVATE SCHOOLS IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD.

>> SO DID YOU HAVE ALL OF YOUR CHILDREN IN PRIVATE SCHOOL CURRENT?

>> NO.

>> OKAY.

>> I HAVE ONE THAT ACTUALLY IS IN PUBLIC SCHOOL.

HE DOES REALLY, REALLY WELL.

HE'S BEEN IN PUBLIC SCHOOL SINCE KINDERGARTEN.

HE THRIVES IN PUBLIC SCHOOL, SO I KNOW THAT SCHOOL IS NOT A ONE SIZE FIT ALL, BUT MY ISAIAH, HE DOES THRIVE IN PUBLIC SCHOOL.

>> YOUR REACTION TO WHEN THE FRANKLIN CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE RULED THAT PART OF THAT LAW WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, AND ARE YOU PREPARED TO CONTINUE THE FIGHT?

>> YES, I AM PREPARED TO CONTINUE THE FIGHT.

I WORK WITH THE INSTITUTION FOR JUSTICE.

AT THE TIME I WAS A LITTLE DISCOURAGED WITH THE RULING BECAUSE THAT IS RULING BECAUSE THAT IS A NEED FOR MY FAMILY AND OTHER KIDS THAT ATTENDS MY CHILDREN'S SCHOOL.

>> AND MANY PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY BECAUSE YOU DO HAVE ONE CHILD YOU SAID WHO DOES QUITE WELL IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT, THERE ARE MANY WHO SAY THAT THIS LAW NOW ON HOLD DOES ROB PUBLIC SCHOOLS OF THE NECESSARY FUNDING AND RESOURCES TO BE ABLE TO HELP KIDS PERHAPS LIKE YOURS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT ARGUMENT?

>> I KNOW THAT THE PRIVATE SCHOOL IS PART OF THE DEAL, BUT IT ALSO HELPS KIDS IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SETTING THAT ARE NOT POSITIONED AND DISTINGUISHED.

IT WILL ALSO HELP ISAIAH, WHICH IS MY MIDDLE SCHOOL SON, THROUGH DUAL ENROLLMENT PROGRAMS AT A COLLEGE SO THAT HE WILL BE ABLE TO HAVE HIS ASSOCIATES DEGREE OR WORK TOWARDS HIS COLLEGE CREDIT.

I THINK THAT THAT ASPECT OF THE DEAL HAS BEEN WASHED DOWN AND NOT RECOGNIZED, THAT IT JUST DOES NOT SNEAK TO PRIVATE SCHOOL, YES, PRIVATE SCHOOL IS, YOU KNOW, A PART OF THE BILL BUT IT DOES SPEAK TO GOING TO NEIGHBORING, NEIGHBORING, DIFFERENT NEIGHBORING SCHOOLS.

IT DOES OFFER THE PARENTS THAT TRANSPORTATION BECAUSE RIGHT NOW I DON'T KNOW ABOUT KENT COUNTY BUT IN BOONE COUNTY IF YOUR KID DOES NO GO TO SCHOOL INSIDE OF THEIR SCHOOL DISTRICT, THE PARENT HAS TO TAKE THAT CHILD, SO THAT PARENT WON'T BE ABLE TO WORK A FULL-TIME JOB BECAUSE THEY WILL HAVE TO WORK, YOU KNOW, LIKE 30 HOURS A WEEK IN ORDER TO TAKE THEIR KIDS BACK AND FORTH TO SCHOOL.

SO THAT'S ONE THING THAT I FEEL THAT IS IMPORTANT, THAT THEY WILL GET THAT BUS TRANSPORTATION AS WELL SO THOSE KIDS CAN GO TO THE SCHOOL OF THEIR LIKING.

I KNOW A FAMILY IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD CURRENTLY, THEY SPEAK FRENCH FLUENTLY.

THERE'S ANOTHER PUBLIC SCHOOL, ANOTHER PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS WHICH IS IN KEN-TON COUNTY THAT OFFERS FRENCH.

SO HE IS ACTUALLY FAILING AT OUR LOCAL PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A FRENCH PROGRAM.

BUT IF HE WENT TO THIS OTHER SCHOOL, WE WOULD COMPEL, WHICH HE WAS ABLE TO GO FOR A LITTLE BIT BUT HIS MOM HAD TO TAKE HIM OUT BECAUSE SHE COULDN'T KEEP TRANSPORTING HIM BACK AND FORTH TO THE OTHER SCHOOL.

SO IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THAT REALLY IMPACTS ME TO CONTINUE TO SPEAK BECAUSE THERE IS A NEED FOR SCHOOL CHOICE.

>> THANK YOU.

SO VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

WE REALLY PRESSURE IT.

>> NO PROBLEM.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO BRIJITTE BLOM, YOU CAN RESPOND TO WHAT YOU HEARD FROM MAKIA BUT MR.

WATERS RAISED EARLIER THAT WE DON'T HEAR FROM THIS SIDE IT TABLE ARGUMENTS ABOUT OTHER TAX CREDITS.

WHY IS THIS ONE OH DIFFERENT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, OUR JOB IS TO MONITOR EDUCATION IN THE STATE, SO WE'RE LOOKING AT THIS TAX CREDIT WAS BEING A WAY TO MOVE PUBLIC DOLLARS INTO THE PRIVATELY SETTING FOR EDUCATION.

IT'S -- I'M NOT GOING TO BE HERE TALKING ABOUT TAX CREDITS IN OTHER AREAS.

BUT IT IS ABOUT HOW THE STATE CHOOSES TO USE ITS GENERAL FUND DOLLARS.

AND WHEN WE SPEND MONEY AS A STATE ON TAX CREDITS, THAT'S SPENDING OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS, SO WE ALL PAY INTO THE GENERAL FUND.

THEN THE LEGISLATURE MAKES DECISIONS ABOUT HOW TO USE THAT MONEY.

IF THEY WANT TO INCENTIVIZE SOMETHING, THEY MAY USE SOME OF THAT MONEY HAD TO TO PAY IT BACK OUT TO A TAXPAYER, SO THEY ESSENTIALLY DIDN'T PAY TAXES.

SO THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

THERE ARE OTHER ORGANIZATIONS WHO CAN GIVE YOU THE EXACT NUMBERS OF THE MONEY GOING OUT OF THE GENERAL FUND IN TAX CREDITS, BUT IT'S A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY, AND THIS IS ONE MORE DROP IN THAT BUCKET AT A TIME WHEN WE DON'T FUND PUBLIC EDUCATION, SYSTEM OR NO, WE AGREED GENERATIONS AGO, DECADES AGO TO CONTRIBUTE AS A BODY INTO THIS COMMON GOOD THAT IS PUBLIC EDUCATION.

SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZED THAT WHEN WE OFFER A CREDIT FOR SOMETHING AND A DONOR CAN GET 95 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR BACK FOR THAT DONATION, THAT IS SPENDING OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS, NOT SPENDING OF PRIVATE PHILANTHROPIC DOLLARS.

>> THE COUNCIL FOR BETTER EDUCATION, TOM SHELLYON, THEY WERE THE ONES WHO STARRED THE WHOLE MOVEMENT FOR KENTUCKY EDUCATION REFORM, THE ACT OF 1990 BECAUSE OF THEIR ACTION 89, BASED ON THIS PHILOSOPHY OF VIOLATING THE COMMON SCHOOLS EDICT AND PHILOSOPHY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> EXPLAIN THAT TO US.

>> SECTION 1E.

WHY THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT IT'S A RESPONSIBILITY OF THE STATE TO PROVIDE FOR AN EFFICIENT SET OF COMMON SCHOOLS, WHICH IS THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM, AND THAT IS WHY THE ORIGINAL CARA LAWSUIT AS YOU MENTIONED TOOK PLACE.

THE CROWNS CAME INTO BEATING IN 1984 FOR THAT EXACT PURPOSE THAT WAS WATER WAS LOOKING FOR WAS ADEQUACY AND FUNDING FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION IN KENTUCKY.

WE SUED AGAIN IN 2004 FOR ADEQUACY OF FUNDING FOR EDUCATION.

IN 2018 WHILE I WAS PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL FOR BETTER EDUCATION, WE CONE DEDUCTED A VERY EXTENSIVE FUNDING STUDY TO PROVIDE TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY FOR WHAT IT COST TO PROVIDE AN ADEQUATE EDUCATION SYSTEM FOR THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS IN KENTUCKY.

SO WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ADVOCATES FOR ADDITIONAL REVENUE, LESS TAX CREDITS, SO THAT THERE'S MORE MONEY AVAILABLE FOR EDUCATION BECAUSE WE ARE WOEFULLY UNDERFUND IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

>> MR. VANDIVER, I WANT TO GO BACK TO YOU YOU MENTIONED EARLIER IN OTHER STATES, AND I THINK THERE'S 27 OTHER STATE -- KENTUCKY BECOMES 28 WITH SCHOOL CHOICE LAWS -- WHAT WO DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE ACADEMIC FORMS PERFORMANCE OF THOSE KIDS?

HAS IT INCREASED?

AND THE POPULATIONS THAT KENTUCKY SEEKS TO SERVE, THOSE WHO ARE AT 175% OF THE POVERTY LEVEL ARE GREATER, DOES IT REALLY WORK FOR THOSE POPULATIONS?

>> YES.

FROM A L. I AGREE WITH THIS SIDE OF TABLE IN THE SENSE THAT WHOEVER WHELMINGLY THE RESEARCH THOSE THESE PROGRAMS WORK, AND IT'S NOT JUST TEST SCORES.

IT'S TALKING ABOUT LONG-TERM ACADEMIC OUTCOMES, STUDENTS GOING TO COLLEGE, STUDENT GRADUATING FROM COLLEGE.

YOU LOOK AT FLORIDA'S TAX CREDIT PROGRAM, EADE A NOTICEABLE INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OFISTS KIDS GOING TO COLLEGE AND PARTICIPATING IN COLLEGE WHO PARTICIPATED IN THEIR TAX CREDIT PROGRAM AT HIGHERS RATES THAN THEIR PEERS WHO ARE ALSO LOW INCOME STUDENTS, SO THESE PROGRAMS DO WORK.

I'M NOT GOING TO BORE YOU WITH ALL THE RESEARCH.

WE WILL PUT THAT UP ON OUR TWITTER ACCOUNT IF ANYBODY WANTS TO FOLLOW US ON TWITTER.

JUST TO GIVE YOU ANOTHER EXAMPLE THE PUBLIC SCHOOL STATES ARE DOING BETTER IN STATES THAT HAVE EDUCATIONAL CHOICE PROGRAMS.

IT'S SIMPLY FALLS THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE PUTTER IN ANY WAY.

>> PUBLIC STUDENTS ARE DOING BETTER IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS THAT THEY CAN CHOOSE TO GO TO.

>> IT'S COMMON SENSE.

IF YOU GIVE FAMILIES A CHOICE AS TO WHERE THEIR CHILDREN'S CAN THRIVE AND SUCCEED, THEY ARE GOING TO PUT THEIR KIDS IN A CLASSROOM THAT'S BEST FOR THEM, AND I THINK WHEN YOU GET TO THE OTHER SIDE, WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT IS PARENTS REALLY DON'T KNOW BEST.

WE KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR KIDS.

AND THE BEST FOR MOST KIDS IN OUR OPINION IS THEY GET ASSIGNED TO THEIR PUBLIC SCHOOL BASED ON WHERE THEY LIVE, THEIR ZIP CODE, AND THE PUBLIC SCHOOL IN THEIR ZIP CODE MAY BE GREAT BUT IT MIGHT NOT TO BE RIGHT FIT.

I KNOW AKIA LIVES IN BOONE COUNTY.

THAT'S HOW I MET HIRTE AT A PUBLIC FORUM WHERE SHE CAME TO TALK ABOUT HER KIDS' FUTURE AND HOW HER KIDS WERE STRUGGLING IN THE ENVIRONMENT THAT THEY WERE IN, AND SO IT'S ABOUT MORE THAN JUST TEST SCORES AND ALL THOSE THINGS, ALTHOUGH I THINK THE EVIDENCE SUPPORTS THAT THESE PROGRAMS WORK WHEN IT COMES TO ACADEMIC ACHIEVEMENT, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT GIVING PARENTS THE DIGNITY OF BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THEIR OWN KID'S EDUCATION AND CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT, YOU KNOW, A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR THESE KIDS WHO MAY BE IN AN ENVIRONMENT IN THE PUBLIC SETTING WHERE THEY JUST DON'T FEEL COMFORTABLE OR MAYBE THERE'S BULLYING OR THINGS.

SO THERE'S A WHOLE RANGE OF REASONS PARENTS CHOOSE, BUT REALLY AT THE CORE OF THIS IS ARE WE GOING TO TRUST AND RESPECT PARENTS WITH THOSE CHOICES OR ARE WE GOING TO ENFORCE A ONE SIZE FITS ALL GOVERNMENT SOLUTION OF THEY GO OR THE GOVERNMENT TELLS THEM TO GO.

-- WHERE THE GOVERNMENT TELLS THEM TO GO.

>> I HAVE TO RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH THAT BECAUSE THIS SECTION OF THE BILL, WE'RE NOT TALKING AGAIN ABOUT THE OPEN BORDERS PROVISIONS BECAUSE THAT WITNESS ABBAS WE HAVE CLARIFIED THAT ALREADY, THAT'S TOTALLY A SEPARATE ISSUE AND JUDGE SHEPHERD CLARIFIED THAT TODAY, BUT THIS BILL DOES NOT CREATE ANY ADDITIONAL SCHOOL CHOICE THAT WASN'T THERE BEFORE.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT SCHOOL CHOICE.

THIS IS ABOUT FUNDING.

>> IT BRINGS NEW MONEY IN THAT PARENTS DESPERATELY NEED.

NOW, HERE'S ANOTHER -- >> LET ME MAKE MY POINT.

YOU INTERRUPTED ME FIRST.

>> WE'LL GET BACK TO YOU.

>> LET ME FINISH FIRST.

YOU KNOW, THAT THE REALITY OF IT IS IS THIS IS PROVIDING MONEY FOR PRIVATE PURPOSES, PUBLIC MONEY FOR PRIVATE PURPOSES.

IT DOESN'T INCREASE ANY CHOICES THAT WEREN'T ALREADY THERE TO BEGIN WITH.

>> BUT, MR. SHELTON, TO THE POINT, THOUGH, THAT MR.

WATERS MADE EARLIER THAT IT CAN PROVIDE MONEY FOR PARENTS TO GET -- PAY FOR EXPENSES SUCH AS TUTORING AND SPECIAL SERVICES, SO ARE YOU OPPOSED TO THAT?

>> WELL, THE ONLY THING THAT WE ARE OPPOSED TO IS USING PUBLIC SCHOOL FUNDS FOR PRIVATE PURPOSES BECAUSE THAT IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN BY OUR CONSTITUTION.

>> BUT THAT'S WHAT THE JUDGE ON THE ONE HAND HE SAID THESE DOLLARS ARE GOING TO FUND PRIVATE EDUCATION.

HE USED THE TERM "PRIVATE SIZING" WHICH IS A TERM FROM YOUR SIDE OF THE FENCE.

BUT THEN HE TURNS AROUND AND SAID YOU CAN'T USE THESE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS FOR ANYTHING.

AND MANY OF THESE EDUCATIONAL SERVICES WOULD BE TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF BY PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS, SO WHY CAN'T THOSE DOLLARS BE RELEASED FOR THAT?

AND TO THE POINT OF -- TO THE POINT OF SPENDING, I'D LIKE TO POINT TO YOU DR. JOHN GEREN'S STUDY THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY ECONOMIST'S RECENT STUDY ON SPENDING IN KENTUCKY, JUST A COUPLE OF KEY POINT ON THAT, THAT WE HAVE INCREASED OUR SPENDING SINCE CARA WAS PASSED, THE INFLATION ADJUSTED FROM 1990 TO 2019 BY 80%, INACCUMULATION FLYING J.

THIS IS COMING FROM TOP TOP OF RESEARCH BEING DONE AT UK, OUR STATE'S PER PUPIL OF REVENUE OF $12,844 IN 2019 WAS EVEN ABOUT 30% HIGHER THAN JUST THE BARBECUE ABOUT SEVEN, EIGHT YEARS EARLIER THAN THAT, AND THAT'S MORE THAN 10% LARGER THAN THE RISE IN SPENDING IN TENNESSEE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHICH HAD THE NEXT HIGHEST INCREASE AMONG THE BORDER STATES IN KENTUCKY.

IN FACT, KENTUCKY'S ACTUALLY INCREASED ITS RATE OF SPENDING IN THE 21st CENTURY MORE THAN EVEN MASSACHUSETTS WHICH OFFERS ONE OF THE BEST PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL EXPERIENCES IN THE COUNTRY, SO WE'RE TALKING HERE ABOUT SPENDING AND INCREASING DOLLARS AND YET WE'RE FINDING THAT WE HAVE INCREASED SPENDING MORE THAN MANY STATES, MORE THAN OUR -- CIRCUMSTANCES OF OUR SEVEN SURROUNDING STATES, AND WE'RE SPENDING ALMOST $13,000 ON AVERAGE PER PUPIL.

I KNOW THERE ARE MANY CHARTER SCHOOLS AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT ARE SPENDING ABOUT HALF THAT, SOMETIMES LESS THAN THAT, AND THEY'RE GETTING BETTER OUTCOMES FOR THEIR STUDENTS.

YOU KNOW, WHAT I WANT TO HEAR IS WHAT'S OUR PLAN FOR CLOSING THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP?

AND I THINK PRICHARD HAS DONE SOME GOOD WORK ABOUT EXPOSING THAT AND I I THINK THESE PEOPLE REALLY DO CARE ABOUT OUR KIDS AND WHAT'S HAPPENING, BUT I JUST THINK THAT THEIR SOLUTIONS FOR THIS AT SOME POINT IN TIME THAT CONCERN FOR KIDS BEGINS TO -- BEGINS TO WANE MORE IN FAVOR OF DOLLARS AND THE FOCUS BECOMES MORE AND MORE ON MONEY IN THE TRADITIONAL SYSTEM INSTEAD OF CHOICE AND INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON THE STUDENTS.

>> I WANT BRIDGET YOU BLOM TO RESPOND TO THAT REALLY QUICKLY.

WE KNOW THERE IS A SCHOOL FUNDING TASK FORCE THAT IS EXPECTED TO GIVE RECOMMENDATIONS IN THEIR NEXT MEETING IN A FEW WEEKS.

>> JIM, I APPRECIATE THAT.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE UNDERSCORE ALL OF THIS WITH THE PERSIST ACHIEVEMENT GAPS THAT EXIST IN OUR STATE, AND THE SOLUTIONS THAT ARE NECESSARY TO CLOSE THOSE GAPS, SO HOUR CHALLENGE TO THIS PUBLIC POLICY, TO HOUSE BILL 563 AND THE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS IS THAT THERE ISN'T -- THERE IS RESEARCH AS ANDREW MENTIONED, BUT THERE IS INSUFFICIENT RESEARCH SHOWING THAT THIS ACTUALLY HAS A POSITIVE ACADEMIC IMPACT WRIT LARGE ON STUDENTS.

WE CAN LISTEN TO ONE ANECDOTE.

WE CAN LISTEN TO MULTIPLE ANECDOTES WHERE MAYBE THERE WAS A POSITIVE IMPACT, BUT PUBLIC POLICY REQUIRES US TO LOOK AT A BODY OF RESEARCH AND EVIDENCE TO MAKE GOOD DECISIONS ABOUT THE USE OF PUBLIC DOLLARS.

THIS IS NOT A SOLUTION THAT IS GOING TO INCREASE ACADEMIC OUTCOMES OVERALL.

THERE'S THINGS THAT WILL, ARE THINGS LIKE INVESTING IN THE QUALITY OF TEACHING AND LEARNING IN THE CLASSROOM AND ENSURING WE'RE EVALUATING AND MEASURING THOSE RETURNS, WHICH BRINGS ME TO AN IMPORTANT POINT I THINK WITH THE EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS AND IS THERE'S NO ACCOUNTABILITY IN THAT BILL, SO THERE'S ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE USE OF THESE PUBLIC DOLLARS IN PRIVATE SETTINGS.

>> THERE'S AN IMPORTANT ISSUE THAT I NEED TO ADDRESS HER.

FIRST OFF THERE'S BEEN ABOUT 170 STUDIES ON THESE TYPES OF EDUCATIONAL CHOICE PROGRAMS.

WE TALK ABOUT EDUCATIONAL CHOICE AT LARGE HAS BEEN AROUND -- >> ACADEMIC STUDIES INY.

>> WHY ACADEMIC.

THESE ARE PEER-REVIEWED STUDIES.

THESE ARE RANDOM ASSIGNMENT STUDIES.

SO WE'RE LOOKING AT THE STUDENTS THAT USE TO PROGRAM VERSUS STUDENTS WHO DIDN'T USE THE PROGRAM, COMPARING STUDENTS, AND IT'S ACROSS A VARIETY OF INSTANCES.

I'M NOTE GOING TO GO THROUGH ALL THE STATES -- >> NOT INTEREST GROUPS TO HAVE HAVE WHO HAVE A LEGITIMATE INTEREST IN THE PERFORMANCE.

>> A VARIETY OF GROUPS.

AND THE REFERENCES I'M MAKING, AND THIS WILL BE UP ON OUR TIGHTER ACCOUNT AND PROBABLY ON OUR FACEBOOK AS WELL, YOU CAN GO TO THE RESOURCES, AND THESE ARE COLLECTIONS OF DIFFERENT STUDIES BY DIFFERENT GROUPS, AND SO LIKE JUST, FOR INSTANCE, THE IMPACT ON PUBLIC SCHOOL TO STUDENT TEST SCORES, THERE'S BEEN 27 TOTAL STUDIES ON THAT, 25 SHOWED A POSITIVE OUTCOME FOR PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT, SEVEN STUDIES HERE, FIVE SHOWING A POSITIVE IMPACT ON STUDENTS THAT PARTICIPATE IN THE SCHOOL CHOICE PROGRAM.

SO THERE IS RESEARCH.

WE COULD SIT HERE AND GO THROUGH.

THESE ARE NOT ANECDOTES.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN STUDIED AND IS THAT'S WHY STATES ARE ADOPTING THESE PROGRAMS.

THAT'S WHY STATES LIKE FLORIDA ARE EXPANDING THEY'RE PROGRAMS RAPIDLY BECAUSE THEY'RE WORKING FOR STUDENTS.

THE OTHER THING I WANT TO CORRECT IS PEOPLE TALK ABOUT A FREE PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATION.

IT'S NOT FREE.

JIM MENTIONED THIS.

THE NUMBER I GOT FROM THE KENTUCKY DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION'S WEBSITE TODAY IS WE SPEND ON AVERAGE ABOUT $14,000 PER PUPIL AND THAT'S FROM THE KENTUCKY DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION QUICK FACT WEBSITE.

>> THAT'S CONSERVATIVE.

>> JIM SAID $14,000 THE NUMBER THAT THE KDE HAS.

WEA ASKED YOU I AVERAGE PRIVATE SCHOOL IGS TUITION IN KENTUCKY IS AROUND $6,000 A YEAR.

AND $6,000, WOW, THAT'S A LOT LESS THAN THE $14,000, BUT FOR AIR PARENT LIKE AKIA WHO HAS LIMITED FINANCIAL MEANS, $6,000 IS A LOT OF MONEY AND THIS $25 MILLION FROM EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNT PROGRAM WOULD BRING NEW MONEY INTO THE STATE, INTO THE HANDS OF PARENTS, AND YOU TALK ABOUT EFFICIENCY AND TRANSPARENCY, YOU KNOW, THE NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE GOING TO MANAGE THIS MONEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH STATE AUDITS, THEY HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY THE STATELY AND ULTIMATELY WHEN THEY GIVE MONEY TO PARENTS, THE PARENTS ARE THE ONES THAT HOLD THE SCHOOLS ACCOUNTABLE.

SO IF THAT SCHOOL NOT WORKING FOR THAT CHILD, THEY CAN LEAVE.

HOW ACCOUNTABLE IS THE SCHOOL TO PARENTS WHEN THE PARENTS HAVE NO CHOICE TO GO-TO-THERE BUT BASED ON WHERE THEY LIVE.

>> THE OTHER PART OF ACCOUNTABILITY, WHAT AN KIND OF OF -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S VALUES -- THAT A SCHOOL CAN HAVE, SO IF, LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A SPECIAL NEEDS CHILD WHO THEY PICK A PRIVATE SCHOOL WHO THEY THINK CAN BEST SERVE THEM BUT YET THERE'S NOT NECESSARILY THE STAFF EQUIPPED TO DO THAT FOR IT'S A KID COLOR OR YOU NAME THE GROUP WHO NEEDS THOSE SPECIALIZED SERVICES, AND IF FOR SOME REASON THEY DON'T PARTICULARLY CARE FOR THAT CHILD'S EITHER PERFORMANCE OR BEHAVIOR THEN THEY CAN EXPEL THAT CHILD AT ANY MOMENT WHERE PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE BEHOOVED TO TAKE KIDS AND TO TAKE ALL KIDS.

SO SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT THERE IS A REALLY CLEAR ARGUMENT HERE BASED ON PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE BEHOLDEN TO THE IDEA THAT TREAT ALL KIDS, YOU EDUCATE ALL KIDS, AND PRIVATE SCHOOLS CAN CHERRY PICK IN A SENSE.

>> IT'S ONE THING TO HAVE AN IDEAL OF WHAT THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM SHOULD BE, I'M NOT HERE TO BLAST PUBLIC SCHOOLINGS.

I THINK PEOPLE COME WHO GO TO WORK EVERY DAY TO STRIVE FOR THAT IDEAL BUT THAT DOES NOT WORK OUT THAT WAY FOR EVERY SINGLE PARENT.

JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A SET OF RULES OR LAWS, THAT MEANS LITTLE TO A PATIENT THAT'S NOTE BEING SERVED, AND THE KID CAN TALK ABOUT HER KIDS BEING BULLY WAS AN EXAMPLE WHERE SHE DIDN'T FEEL LIKE THE ADMINISTRATION WAS TAKING CARE OF HER KIDS AND THAT WAS IMPACTING HER PA BUILT TO LEARN.

WE TALK ABOUT STUDENTS WITH SPECIAL NEEDS.

NOT EVERY SOOL IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO SERVE THAT STUDENT'S NEEDS, AND THAT'S THE SAME FOR THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

THERE ARE LAWS IN THE BOOKS NOW THAT IF A PUBLIC SCHOOL IS NOT MEETING THE NEEDS OF A CHILD WEEK THEY CAN SWITCH TO DIFFERENT PUBLIC SCHOOL.

THEY CAN EVEN TAKE THE PUBLIC DOLLARS AND GO TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL NOW UNDER FEDERAL LAW, AND THAT DOES HAPPEN.

NOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT PARENT SATISFACTION, WE TALKED TO PARENTS OF SPECIAL NEEDS STUDENTS WHO USE THESE PROGRAMS,NER SATISFACTION IN OTHER STATES ARE VERY HIGH, AND WHO ELSE IS GOING TO KNOW IF THEIR CHILDREN WITH SPECIAL NEEDS WHO ARE VERY UNIQUE AND SUCCEEDING BETTER THAN THEIR PARENTS WHO REPORT SOMETHING LIKE I THINK 87, 90 PERCENT SATISFACTION IN A STATE LIKE FLORIDA THAT HAS A SPECIAL NEEDS SCHOLARSHIP PROGRAM.

AND WE TALK ABOUT STUDENTS OF COLOR, THESE PROGRAMS DISPROPORTIONATELY BENEFIT STUDENTS CHLORO.

INDIANA 20% OF THE POPULATION IS NON-WHITE.

42% OF THE KIDS USING THEIR VOUCHER PROGRAM IN INDIANA ARE NON-WHITE.

IN FLORIDA 70% OF THE KIDS USING THE SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT PROGRAM ARE NON-WHITE, HISPANIC OR BLACK, AND SO THESE ARE PROGRAMS THAT DISPROPORTIONATELY BENEFIT THESE FAMILIES AND WHEN WE DO POLLING AMONG THE STRONGEST SUPPORTERS OF SCHOOL CHOICE ARE BLACK PARENTS.

>> , YOU KNOW, I AM CURIOUS ANDREW, THOUGH, OF THE ACCOUNTABILITY QUESTION.

SO WHAT ASSURANCES THERE ARE TO PARENTS AND TO THE PUBLIC THAT THE USE OF THESE DOLLARS THROUGH THE TAX CODE IS ACTUALLY RE RESULTING IN BETTER THAN WHERE THE CHILD WAS BEFORE OR -- BETTER OUTCOMES THAN WHERE THE CHILD WAS BEFORE?

>> I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

I WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION.

SOMETHING WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS NOT PUBLIC DOLLARS.

THESE ARE PRIVATE DONATIONS, AND THE IDEA THAT THIS IS PUBLIC MONEY IS SO RIDICULOUS THAT JUSTICE KENNEDY WHEN THIS ISSUE CAME BEFORE THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT AND THE OTHER SIDE SAID THESE TAX CREDITS ARE REALLY PUBLIC DOLLARS, JUSTICE KENNEDY'S RESPONSE WAS, THAT IDEA HAS NO BASIS IN STANDING LEGAL PRECEDENT, THAT A PRIVATE DONATION IS PUBLIC DOLLARS.

I MEAN, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A FANCY LAWYER -- I GET THAT I'M AN ATTORNEY, DONED DON'T HOLD IT AGAINST ME, BUT THE BASIC ARGUMENT IS EVERY DOLLAR IN MY WITH ALL THE IS ACTUALLY GOVERNMENT MONEY IN THE SENSE THAT THE MONEY BELONGS TO GOVERNMENT, BUT BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT LETS ME KEEP THAT MONEY, THAT THAT HAS SOMEHOW A GOVERNMENT APPROPRIATION.

THAT'S NOT CORRECT.

THAT'S NOT WHAT THE LAW IS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE LEGAL PRECEDENT FRANKLIN COUNTY CIRCUIT QUOTER IS ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF ALL EXISTING LEGAL PRECEDENT.

I APOLOGIZE, I DO WANT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE THAT KEEPS GETTING THROWN AROUND.

IT'S JUST NOT FACTUALLY CORRECT THAT THIS IS PUBLIC DOLLARS.

AS FAR AS ACCOUNTABILITY GOES, ACCOUNTABILITY STARTS WITH THE PARENTS, AND I THINK THAT PARENTS CAN JUDGE BEYOND JUST THE TEST SCORES, ALTHOUGH TEST SCORES DO HAVE A ROLE AND ARE IMPORTANT FOR CITY'SING STUDENTS BUT THEY CAN JUDGE HOW A CHILD IS DOING SAFETY-WISE AND PARENTS RATE SAFETY AS ALONG THE HIGHEST THINGS THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT, ACADEMICALLY, SOCIALLY, ALL THOSE THINGS.

PARENTS CAN JUDGE THAT.

THEN AS FAR AS HOW THESE PROGRAMS ARE PERFORMING, I'VE SAID BEFORE AND I'LL SAY IT AGAIN AGAIN, ALL OF THE RESEARCH OR THE VAST MAJORITY OF RESEARCH SHOW THAT THESE PROGRAMS ARE WORKING BECAUSE PARENTS ARE JUST IN A MUCH BETTER POSITION TO JUDGE WHETHER A SCHOOL'S WORKING FOR THEIR CHILD OR NOT.

>> MR. SHELTON.

>> I WAS JUST A COUPLE OF POINTS I WANTED TO MAKE.

FIRST OF ALL BACK TO MR. WATER'S POINT ABOUT THE INCREASE IN OVERALL SPENDING FOR KENTUCKY SCHOOLS PER STUDENT, THAT WAS DEFINITELY WELL NEEDED IF YOU LOOK WHERE KENTUCKY WAS PLACED IN SCHOOL SPENDING IN THE STATE, BUT IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE THAT'S COMING FROM, IT'S NOT COMING FROM THE STATE.

THE OVERWHELMING PORTION OF THAT INCREASE IS COMING FROM LOCAL TAXPAYERS THROUGH LOCAL PROPERTY TAXES AND TAXES THAT ARE PAID AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

THERE'S ACTUALLY A REDUCTION IN FUNDING FROM THE STATE LEVEL WHEN IT COMES TO INFLATION ADJUSTED MONEY OVER THAT SAME TIME SPAN.

THE INCREASE IS FROM LOCAL TAXPAYERS.

THE OTHER ISSUE IS WITH THE SCHOOL FUNDING TAX FORCE, WHICH I'M THRILLED THAT WE HAVE, AND I ADVOCATED FOR THAT FOR 30 YEARS, AND I'M GLAD TO SEE THAT IT'S HAPPENING, BUT IF ALL WE DO IS TAKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT BAER WE'RE PUTTING INTO PUBLIC EDUCATION NOW AND SHIFT THE WAY IT'S ALLOCATED, ALL IT'S GOING TO DO IS CREATE WINNERS AND LOSERS AMONG KENTUCKY SCHOOL DISTRICTS.

UNLESS WE GET ADDITIONAL FUNDING PROVIDED FROM THE STATE, AND AGAIN THE CONSTITUTIONAL IT IS THE STATE'S RESPONSIBILITY TO FUND PUBLIC SCHOOLS, UNLESS WE GET ADDITIONAL FUNDING, WE WILL HAVE WINNERS AND LOSERS AMONG POWER PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS WHICH DOESN'T HELP ANYBODY.

>> SO WHAT SHOULD THAT ADDITIONAL DAR AMOUNT BE IN YOUR VIEW?

>> THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE STUDIES.

THE DEPARTMENT HAS HAD STUDIES DONE, THE COUNCIL HAS HAD MULTIPLE STUDIES DONE OVER TIME.

BUT YET WHAT WE DO -- MOST PEOPLE THINK WHEN THEY HEAR, AND I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO TOO MUCH JARGON HERE -- THEY HA THE WORD SEEK WHICH IS THE, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, FUNDING FORMULA FORE KENTUCKY SCHOOLS.

IT'S NOT TRULY A FUNDING FORMULA.

IT'S AN ALLOCATION FORM LAW.

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, AND THIS IS LAWFUL, THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAS A RESPONSIBILITY TO SET THE AMOUNT OF FUNDING THAT GOES TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

OKAY?

THERE IS NO FORMULA THAT DETERMINES HOW MUCH MONEY SHOULD GO INTO THE SEEK FORMULA.

THE FORMULA JUST TELLS HOW THE MONEY SHOULD BE ALLOCATED AMONG THE EXISTING SCHOOL STUDENTS, AND SO WE NEED ADDITIONAL FUNDING TO BE PROVIDED BY THE STATE INTO THE FORMULA SO THAT THERE WILL BE AN OPPORTUNITY TO ACTUALLY PROVIDE BETTER OUTCOMES AND BETTER OPPORTUNITIES FOR STUDENTS.

>> BEFORE WE GET TO YOU, MR.

WATERS, I WANT TO, FOR OUR VIEWERS TO HEAR AN ACCOUNT OF STEPHANIE WINKLER WHO IS A MADISON COUNTY EDUCATOR WHO SHARES HER CONCERNS ABOUT EDUCATION ACCOUNTABILITY ACCOUNTS AND HOW BILL 563 IF ITS ENTIRETY.

STECHY WINKLER BE WITH THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THAT YOU GO.

>> YOU'VE BEEN PAY PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATOR IN MADISON COUNTY FOR HOW MANY YEARS?

>> THIS WILL MY 25th YEAR.

>> AND YOU ARE NOW TEACHING THE FIFTH GRADE.

>> FIFTH GRADE.

>> YOU TAUGHT FOURTH GRADE FOR A WHILE, RIGHT?

>> YES, I DID.

>> SO TALK TO US ABOUT YOUR VIEWS ABOUT SCHOOL CHOICE, EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS, ALL OF THAT.

SOMETIMES WE PUT ALL OF THOSE THINGS INTO ONE KIND OF TERM UMBRELLA.

YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THE THREATS YOU PERCEIVE IT TO BE TO PUBLIC EDUCATION.

>> FROM A PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER STANDPOINT, I THINK SCHOOL CHOICE EXISTS NOW.

WE HAVE LOTS OF CHOICES, ESPECIALLY IN MADISON COUNTY.

WE'RE HOME TO THE ONLY MODEL LABORATORY SCHOOL SPONSORED BY EASTERN KENTUCKY UNIVERSITY.

WE HAVE PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

WE HAVE PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS.

WE HAVE HOME SCHOOLS.

THERE ARE CHOICES, A PLETHORA OF CHOICES, NOT IN EVERY LOCALE BUT IN A LOT OF PLACES IT EXISTS, SCHOOL CHOICE.

THE PROBLEM IS AS A LAYPERSON IS WE DON'T OFTEN FOLLOW THE MONEY AND WE DON'T OFTEN UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHERE THE TAX MONEY GOES, AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW WHERE THEIR MONEY GOES, AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDITS, WHEN YOU USE THE WORD "SCHOLARSHIP" THAT SOUNDS REALLY GOOD TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW TRULY WHAT THOSE MEAN AND WHERE, IF YOU FOLLOW THE MONEY, WHERE IT GOES.

SO SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDITS ARE A SLIPPERY SLOPE, ONE BECAUSE OUR COMMONWEALTH ESPECIALLY, A LARGE PART OF OUR STATE BUDGET, OF COURSE, GOES TO PUBLIC EDUCATION.

WE WITH AN ALL OF OUR POPULATION TO BE EDUCATED, AND THAT, OF COURSE, TAKES MONEY.

BUT THAT MONEY IS EARMARKED FOR EDUCATION, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO RECEIVE STATE FUNDING FOR DIFFERENT REASONS, THEY CAN'T GET TO THAT MONEY.

AND SO YOU WILL FIND IN A LOT OF PLACES PEOPLE COMING OR TRYING TO COME UP WITH CREATIVE THE WAYS TO ACCESS PUBLIC EDUCATION DOLLARS.

LUCKILY FOR US, OUR FOREFATHERS WHEN THEY WERE CREATING OUR CONSTITUTION IN THE COMMONWEALTH, THEY MADE IT VERY CLEAR, WHICH THE JUDGE AGREED WITH, YOU KNOW, RECENTLY, THAT OUR KENTUCKY CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT OUR TAX DOLLARS ARE SPECIFICALLY TO BE EARMARKED FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION, A SYSTEM OF COMMON SCHOOLS, BECAUSE WE WANT EVERYONE TO HAVE EQUAL OPPORTUNITY AND ACCESS TO A FREE AND APPROPRIATE PUBLIC EDUCATION.

THAT'S FROM LOCAL TO THE NATIONAL LEVEL.

EVERYONE WANTS THAT FOR EVERY CHILD, ESPECIALLY EDUCATORS.

AND LAWS THAT WERE PASSED THAT START TO TALK ABOUT DIFFERENT TYPES OF EDUCATION AND STARTING TO MESS WITH THE MONEY, IF YOU FOLLOW IT, YOU FOLLOW IT TO PLACES WHERE IT SHOULDN'T BE.

>> SO FOR THOSE WHO SAY THAT, WELL, APPARENTLY THOSE RESOURCES AREN'T HELPING ALL KIDS BECAUSE SO MANY KIDS ARE FALLING THROUGH THE CRACKS, THE THREAT YOU SEE TO KIDS THAT YOU HAVE IN CLASS NOW, WHO HAVE WHATEVER CIRCUMSTANCES, WHAT DO YOU FEAR FOR THEM WHO ARE STILL IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM THAT THEY WILL BE DENIED IF SOMEHOW THESE TYPES OF SCHOOL CHOICE MEASURES ARE ALLOWED TO PROCEED?

IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY COULD COME BACK IN '22 AND MAKE SOME ADJUSTMENTS TO MAKE THAT SO.

>> SURE.

THEY'RE WITHIN THEIR RIGHT TO TRY AND DO THAT, BUT WHAT PEOPLE NEED TO BE CAREFUL OF IS THEY NEED TO FOLLOW THE MONEY, AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT A SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDIT, WHAT THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IS THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY WEALTHY CAN DONATE TO ANY SCHOOL.

LET'S SAY A NEW CHARTER SCHOOL OR A NEW PRIVATE SCHOOL OR A PAROCHIAL SCHOOL -- >> OR A PUBLIC SCHOOL.

OR A PUBLIC SCHOOL.

>> OR A PUBLIC SCHOOL, BUT USUALLY THAT'S NOT THE CASE, BUT IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO THAT, AND THEY DONATE TO THAT SCHOOL, THEY THEN GET A TAX CREDIT, WHICH TAKES FROM THEIR STATE INCOME TAX -- THEY GET THAT CREDIT -- WHICH TAKES AWAY FROM INCOME THAT WOULD NORMALLY BE GOING INTO OUR STATE COFFERS.

>> WOULD IT SATISFY EDUCATORS IF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY IN 2022 CAME BACK AND SAID, WE'LL GIVE TEACHERS X AMOUNT OF RAISE AND WE'LL PUT MORE SUPPORT BEHIND AFTER-SCHOOL SERVICES AND SUPPORT PROGRAMS FOR SCHOOLS, AND WE'RE STILL GOING TO ALLOW TO HAVE SOME SORT OF EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNTS OR SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDITS TO EXIST OR TO GO TO SCHOOL OUTSIDE OF YOUR DISTRICT.

CAN YOU HAVE IT BOTH WAYS WITH STEPHANIE WINKLER?

>> SO HERE'S THE TRUTH.

IS ANYBODY GOING TO TURN DOWN A RAISE?

OF COURSE NOT.

BUT IS A RAISE GOING TO FIX OUR PROBLEMS?

NO, YOU CAN'T JUST THROW MONEY AT A PROBLEM.

YOU CAN'T THROW A RAISE AT ONE GROUP OF PEOPLE AND SAY, OH, THAT'LL MAKE THEM HAPPY.

THAT'S NOT THE ANSWER.

THE ANSWER IS DIFFERENT FROM A JEFFERSON COUNTY, FROM AN OWLSLEY COUNTY, FROM A FULTON COUNTY, AND THE COMMONWEALTH IS UNIQUE IN THAT WE BORDER SO MANY OTHER STATES, WE HAVE PEOPLE THAT CAN GO AND TAKE OPPORTUNITIES IN OTHER STATES BECAUSE IT'S SO CLOSE, AND EVERY ONE OF OUR 173 SCHOOL DISTRICTS THAT IS DIFFERENT POPULATIONS, DIFFERENT NEEDS, AND THAT'S WHERE IT NEED TO STAY.

WE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE NEED OUR REPRESENTATIVES TO REPRESENT THEIR LOCAL POPULATIONS.

WE ARE SO FORTUNATE IN THIS STATE THAT WE HAVE SOMETHING CALLED SITE-BASED DECISION MAKING COUNCILS.

WE HAVE HAD THEM FOR MANY YEARS.

THERE ARE VERY FEW STATES THAT HAVE THE STRUCTURE OF PARENTS AND ADMINISTRATORS AND TEACHERS THAT ARE DRIVING THE VISION AND THE NEEDS OF THE SCHOOL.

WE HAVE ALL THE SYSTEMS IN PLACE THAT WE NEED IF WE USE THEM THE WAY THEY'RE SET UP AND MEANT TO BE.

WE JUST HAVE TOO MUCH OF FIGHTING FOR ONE GROUP OR ANOTHER INSTEAD OF FIGHTING FOR WHAT COUNTS, AND THAT'S KIDS AND OUR FAMILIES.

AND UNTIL EVERYONE IS TRULY FIGHTING FOR THAT, WE WILL NEVER ACCOMPLISH THE GOALS THAT WE WANT TO ACCOMPLISH.

>> STEPHANIE WINKLER, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> MR.

WATERS, I WANT TO COME TO YOU NOW BECAUSE YOU WERE GOING TO SAY SOMETHING BEFORE WE WENT TO THAT PIECE.

>> YEAH.

WELL, THERE ARE DIFFERENT REVENUE STREAMS, FUNDING REVENUE STREAMS GOING BACK TO WHAT MR. SHELTON WAS TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, FOR EACH STUDENT IN OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, THERE'S FEDERAL AND LOCAL DOLLARS AS WELL AS STATE DOLLARS.

WHEN YOU PUT ALL THOSE TOGETHER THERE'S BEEN A TREMENDOUS INCREASE IN SPENDING SINCE CARRIEA.

THAT WAS WHERE THE 80% SPENDING INCREASES.

SO TO ONLY TALK ABOUT ONE OF THOSE REVENUE STREAMS IS TO YOU GO MORE THE INCREASE OF ALL THOSE DOLLARS THAT HAVE OCCURRED SINCE KARA.

>> BUT THE ARGUMENT IS THE STATE APPROPRIATION HAS NOT MET INFLATIONARY PACES.

>> THE STATE APPROPRIATION HAS BEEN STAGNANT, AND PRETTY EVEN, BUT THAT -- BUT IF THIS IS ABOUT GIVING THE RESOURCES NEEDED TO EDUCATE STUDENTS, THERE ARE PLENTY, WE FEEL THERE ARE PLENTY OF RESOURCES TO DO THAT.

NOW, IN TERMS OF THE ACCUSATION THAT PRIVATE SCHOOLS CHERRY PICK STUDENTS, I WOULD ASK IF THAT'S -- IF YOU BELIEVE THAT, THEN THE FACT IS THAT CHARTER SCHOOLS CANNOT CHER PICK STUDENTS.

CHARTER SCHOOLS HAVE TO TAKE ALL OF THE STUDENTS THAT APPLY ON A FIRST COME, FIRST SERVE BASIS.

THEY CANNOT DO THAT.

SO WOULD YOU BE IN FAVOR OF THAT TYPE OF CHOICE?

THERE ARE MORE THAN ONE KIND OF -- THERE'S MORE THAN ONE KIND OF SCHOOL CHOICE.

INDIANA HAS ALL KINDS OF CHOICES.

IT'S AMAZING OVER IN INDIANA THEY ARE ADVERTISING PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE ADVERTISING THE IMPROVEMENT IN THEIR PERFORMANCE AND ASKING PARENTS TO RECONSIDER COMING BACK TO THEIR SCHOOL AND ENROLLING THEIR CHILDREN IN THEIR SCHOOL, WHEREAS IN KENTUCKY IT'S ACTUALLY POSSIBLE TO SET UP ONE ON SIDE OF THE STREET AND LOOK AT A SCHOOL ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STREET WITH A NEW SCIENCE LAB BUT NOT BE ALLOWED TO GO THERE BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO ENROLL IN THAT SCHOOL.

SO THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT I THINK WE MUST ADDRESS, AND MS. WINKLER TALKED ABOUT HOW SCHOLARSHIPS SOUND GOOD.

I AGREE.

SCHOLARSHIPS SOUND REALLY GOOD TO FAMILIES THAT HAVEN'T HAD ANY OPPORTUNITY OR ANY CHOICE.

>> MEANING THEY HAVE DIFFERENT MEANINGS BEHIND IT.

LET'S NOT CONFLATE THIS.

>> 20% OUR BLACK STUDENTS -- ONLY 14% OUT BLACK STUDENTS CAN READ PROFICIENTLY IN KENTUCKY.

ONE IN THREE MIGHT KIND CAN.

WHAT HAS ALL THIS SPENDING GOTTEN US?

>> I HAVE SOMETHING TO ADD ON THE SPENDING BECAUSE I THINK THERE'S SOME REAL IMPORTANT THINGS TO KNOW ABOUT HOW THIS BILL WAS IPAD.

THERE WAS A $25 MILLION EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY ACCOUNT PROGRAM, AND THEN THERE WAS ALSO PAIRED $140 MILLION IN NOW MINE FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO FUND ALL-DAY KINDERGARTEN.

>> FOR ONE YEAR.

>> FOR ONE YEAR BUT STILL, $140 MILLION, AND THAT IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE MAINTAINED FOR HERE ON OUT.

THERE IS SOME CRAZINESS IN SESSION WHERE PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT WALKING AWAY FROM $150 MILLION FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS BECAUSE THE BILL GAVE $25 MILLION TO ALLOW FAMILIES TO HAVE MORE CHOICES.

THAT SEEMS LIKE A WIN-WIN NO-BRAINER TO ME THAT YOU WOULD TAKE THAT BILL AND WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO FOUGHT.

SOME OF THE LEGISLATORS DID THE RIGHT THING, THEY PASSED THE PROGRAM AND THEY INCREASED FUNDING FOR OUR STUDENTS IN KENTUCKY, BUT THEN INSTEAD OF CELEBRATING THAT VICTORY, A GROUP OF, RAUL SMALL GROUP OF PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICTS GOT TOGETHER TO FUND THIS LAWSUIT AND I WAS ACTUALLY SPEAKING IN BOONE COUNTY IN PAST WEEK AND CAN BE ASKED ME, WHO IS BEHIND THIS LAWSUIT CHALLENGING THIS PROGRAM?

WHO IS FUNDING THIS?

I TELL HIM, ALL OF US HERE ARE FUNDING THIS BUS BASS THIS IS OUR TAX DOLLARS.

I LIVE IN BOONE COUNTY P. THE BOONE COUNTY SCHOOL DISTRICT PUT $10,000 IN THIS HALT.

I BETTED THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS THAT ARE GOING TO GO INTO THIS LAWSUIT BEFORE IT'S ALL OVER SO IT'S CRAZY FOR ME TO HEAR ALL THIS STUFF ABOUT PUBLIC SCHOOLS NEED MORE MONEY, AND THAT'S FINE.

THAT'S OKAY TO ADVOCATE FOR BUT THEN TO TAKE MONEY FROM THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO KEEP PARENTS GETTING WITH THAT THEY NEED SEEMS CRAZY TO ME.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU LEFT OUT IN THE HISTORY AND WE ALSO AT THE END OF THE DAY GOT TO EIGHT OR NINE COUNTIES THAT WOULD BE ELIGIBLE, THAT THEY KNEW THAT'S THEY COULDN'T MAKE THAT GO STATEWIDE SORE SIGNIFICANT HAVING DAVIESS, FAYETTE, WARNING, DAVIS ET CETERA, I'M WONDERING WONDERING WITH BRIJITTE BLOM YOU HAVE TO A PROBLEM WITH THE FACT THAT THERE'S GEOGRAPHICAL CHERRY PICKING BASED ON WHERE THIS PROGRAM EXISTS?

>> ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE WE'RE BACK TIE UNIVERSAL FREE AND PUBLIC EDUCATION THAT RESULTS IN IMPROVED OUTCOMES FOR STUDENTS, FOR KENTUCKIANS, INCREASES EDUCATION ATTAINMENT AS A STATE AND IMPROVES QUALITY OF LIFE AND OUR ECONOMY.

SO WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT ANY TYPE OF -- ANY TYPE OF STRATEGY LIKE THIS THAT RESPONDS TO ONLY CERTAIN AREAS OF THE STATE FOR NO CLEAR AND CONVINCING REASON, THEN ARE WE USING PUBLIC POLICY TO IMPROVE OUTCOME OVERALL?

AND ARE WE USING OUR PUBLIC DOLLARS THAT WE ALL CONTRIBUTE TO DO THAT?

AND IN BILL DOES NOT DO THAT.

I THINK THERE ARE SOME KEY WORDS THAT WE'RE HEARING AROUND THE TABLE THAT SHOULD CAUSE CONCERN TO LISTENERS, AND THOSE ARE WHEN WE HEAR THINGS LIKE PARENTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE THEIR CHILDREN TO CERTAIN PLACES RIGHT NOW, THAT'S NOT TRUE.

PARENTS ARE ALLOWED TO TAKE THEIR CHILDREN TO THE SCHOOLS THAT THEY CHOOSE.

IF IT'S A PRIVATE EDUCATION, THERE ARE TUITION DOLLARS ATTACHED TO IT BECAUSE THAT'S THE BUSINESS MODEL FOR PRIVATE EDUCATION.

BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN A PARENT IS NOT ALLOWED.

THERE ARE CURRENTLY SCHOLARSHIPS IN PLACE THAT PRESUMABLY PARISHIONERS OF THOSE PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS DETAIN TO.

THEY GET A STANDARD DEDUCTION FOR THOSE DOLLARS.

THIS BILL GIVES THEM $95 BACK ON $100 DONATION FOR THAT SCHOLARSHIP FUND.

SO WHEN WE HEAR TERMS LIKE "ALLOWED" OR WE HEAR TERMS LIKE "CHOICE," WHEN PARENTS ALLOWED AND ARE GIVEN A CHOICE, THAT SHOULD BE A FLAG FOR ALL OF US THAT IS THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON IN THE ADVOCACY FOR THIS BILL, AND WE NEED TO REALLY TEST WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS TAN EVIDENCE-BASED STRATEGY TO IMPROVE ACADEM OUTCOMES.

>> ONE POINT WITH I'M REALLY CURIOUS, MR. VANDIVER, WHAT IS IT THAT'S HAPPENING IN THESE SCHOOLS IN THESE STATES WHERE THEY HAVE INCREASED THE PERFORMANCE OF BLACK KIDS, AS YOU'VE CALLED THEM, JIM WATERS,S WHAT IT THEY'RE DOING THAT PUBLIC SCHOOLS CAN'T DO?

I MEAN, EXACTLY, NAME THE STRATEGY, NAME THE TECHNIQUES THAT THEY'RE USING THAT REALLY YIELD THE RESULTS THAT YOU'RE BOASTING ABOUT TONIGHT.

>> I THINK IT'S BECAUSE IT'S NOT A SYSTEMIC APPROACH, THERE'S NOT A ONE SIZE SYSTEMIC APPROACH TO FIXING EDUCATION.

IT'S ABOUT INDIVIDUAL FAMILIES BEING ABLE TO MAKE CHOICES FOR THEIR KIDS THAT IS GOING TO BE BEST FOR THEIR EDUCATION.

I CAN TELL IN YOU AKIA AS CASE AND IT'S A LOT ABOUT CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT FOR THEY ARE KIDS, AND THAT'S IMPORTANT FOR, AND IT'S HER -- HER CHILDREN -- ON ONE OF HER KIDS WAS IN A PRIVATE SCHOOL.

HE HAD TO GO TO PUBLIC SCHOOL FOR FINANCIAL REASONS.

AND SHE -- >> HE IS THE ONE THAT'S THRIVING IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL.

>> YEAH, AND IT'S NOT ANYTHING -- IN THAT SITUATION FOR HIM, HE FELL BACK, AND SO THAT IS A SIGN TO HER THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING SOCIALLY GOING ON, AND I THINK -- SO I THINK WHEN, YES, THE QUESTION ABOUT WHAT ARE THESE -- >> WHAT ARE THEY DOING?

>> I THINK IT DEPENDS THE ON SCHOOL, IT DEPENDS ON THE STUDENT.

I MEAN, I THINK THERE IS MORE FLEXIBILITY IN PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS THAN KIND OF THE BIG SYSTEMS THAT WE PUT OUR KIDS IN IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, AND SO I THINK THERE'S SOME OF THAT GOING ON.

>> I THINK THERE'S ALSO EXPECTATION.

WE FOUND THAT SOME OF THE LARGEST ACHIEVEMENT GAPS IN JEFFERSON COUNTY WERE IN THE SCHOOLS EAST OF I-65, WHICH THE WHITE STUDENTS ARE DOING TERRIFIC IN THOSE SCHOOLS, BUT THE ACHIEVEMENT GAPS BETWEEN WHITE AND BLACK STUDENTS ARE LARGER THERE THAN MANY OTHER PARTS OF THE CITY.

AND I BELIEVE THAT A LOT OF THAT IS THE EXPECTATION, DO WE REALLY BELIEVE THAT EVERY CHILD CAN LEARN AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL AND ARE WE WILLING TO TAILOR AN EDUCATION PROGRAM THAT MEETS THOSE NEEDS?

I THINK PRIVATE EDUCATION CAN DO THAT OR CHARTER SCHOOLS.

>> BUT WHAT ASSURANCE DOES A PARENT HAVE THAT A PRIVATE SCHOOL EDUCATION THAT PROBABLY LOOKS A LOT LIKE THOSE SCHOOLS ON THE EAST SIDE OF I-65 IS ACTUALLY GOING TO PROVIDE FOR THEIR CHILD A BETTER EDUCATION?

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE RESEARCH SHOWS US IN FACT IT'S NOT.

>> ACTUALLY, IF YOU GO TO OUR WEBSITE, WE HAVE FLORIDA VERSUS KENTUCKY SHOWING HOW THAT SCHOOL CHOICE HAS FLOURISHED IN FLORIDA, GROWN, AND HOW IT HAS CAUSED THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO IMPROVE THEIR PERFORMANCE, SO WHEN WE HEAR WHAT ABOUT THOSE KIDS THAT ARE LEFT BEHIND IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS WHOSE PARENTS DON'T GET THEM INTO A DIFFERENT SCHOOL, EVEN THEY'VE BENEFIT FROM SCHOOL CHOICE BECAUSE OF THE DYNAMICS FAR CREATED BY HAVING A CHOICE.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH A CHOICE?

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S WRONG WITH CHOICE.

>> SO HE SAYS THAT THAT WILLAL ACTUALLY HELPS BECAUSE OF THE COMPETITION, THAT IT CAUSES ALL THE BOATS TO RISE, MR. SHELTON.

>> LET'S GO BACK AGAIN ON A COUPLE THINGS.

ONE, THE CHOICE IS ALREADY THERE.

THIS BILL DID NOT -- >> NOT THIS -- >> -- ADD ANY TYPE OF CHOICE THAT WASN'T ALREADY THERE.

IT SIMPLY PROVIDE A METHOD FOR PUBLIC FUNDS TO PAY FOR IT.

BUT I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS WHICH I THINK HAS BEEN MISCHARACTER HERE.

ORIGINALLY THIS BILL WAS PROPOSED FOR THESE VOUCHERS, WHICH IS WHAT THEY REALLY ARE, SCHOLARSHIP TAX CREDITS, IT'S A MEANS TO GET SCHOOL SLOUCH VOUCHERS INTO THE STATE OF KENTUCKY.

IT'S OPENING THE DOOR.

IT WAS TRIED YEARS AGO IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHEN I WAS STILL WORKING WITH THE KENTUCKY ASSOCIATION OF SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENTS.

THE BILL'S BEEN TRIED MULTIPLE TIMES.

THIS YEAR WHEN THEY TRIED IT, THEY REALIZED IT WASN'T GOING TO PASS, AND SO THEY ADD TWO THINGS, ONE, THE OPEN BORDERS PROVISION, WHICH AGAIN WE'VE ALREADY MENTIONED EARLIER STILL IN EFFECT AND WASN'T AFFECTED BY THE LAWSUIT, AND THEN THEY CAME BACK AND PROVIDE AID SECOND BILL TO PROVIDE THE $140 MILLION FOR FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN.

NOW, I'M THRILLED THAT FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN WAS FUND.

THAT'S AGAIN SOMETHING WE HAVE ADVOCATED, AND MOST PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICTS OF MADE THE INVESTMENT LOCALLY TO PAW FOR THAT THE STATE SHOULD HAVE BEEN PAYING FOR YOU'LL ALONG.

BUT STILL, EVEN WHEN THEY ADDED THE OPEN BORDERS PROVISION AND ADDED $140 MILLION FOR FULL-DAY KINDERGARTEN, THE BILL STILL ONLY PASSED 48-TO-47.

I THINK THAT'S VERY TELLING.

>> PARENTS WHO DON'T HAVE THE MONEY, DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.

PARENTS WHO DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO PUT THEIR CHILD IN A PRIVATE SCHOOL, TO YOUR POINT, IT'S ALMOST LIKE, I HEAR -- WHAT I HEAR YOU SAYING IS SALON YOU HAVE THE MONEY, THEN YOU CAN PROVIDE A BETTER EDUCATION FOR YOUR CHILDREN.

WE OUGHT TO PROVIDE EQUAL EDUCATION, QUIET EQUALITY FOR ALL CHILDREN NO MATTER WHAT ZIP CODE THEY'RE IN, NOWHERE MATTER WHAT THE SIZE OF THEIR PARENTS A INCOME.

>> WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT MORE AND I'M SURE WE WILL HAVE CONVERSATION ABOUT SCHOOL FUNDING THAT WILL COME UP PERHAPS AFTER THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS.

THANK YOU ALL FOR WATCHING.

NEXT WEEK WE ARE GOING TO HAVE ANOTHER VERY RIGOROUS DISCUSSION, AND SO WE HOPE YOU WILL JOIN US AGAIN ON "KENTUCKY TONIGHT" JOIN BILL BRYANT AND A TEAM OF WORKING JOURNALISTS TO THE NEWS OF THE WEEK ON "COMMEN ON KENTUCKY," FRIDAY AT 8:00 EASTERN.