>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", REPUBLICAN SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS SAYS SHE WILL GO TO CONFIRM JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

THEN, AFTER THE INFAMOUS OSCARS SLAP, WE LOOK AT THE IMPACT OF JOKES MADE AT THE EXPENSE OF BLACK WOMEN AND HOW WOMEN UNDER 30 HAVE CLOSED THE GENDER PAY GAP IN MORE THAN 20 U.S. CITIES.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS FROM DIVERSE PERSPECTIVES.

UP FIRST, THE FUTURE OF THE SUPREME COURT.

SENATOR SUSAN COLLINS OF MAINE BECAME THE FIRST REPUBLICAN TO BACK THE NOMINATION OF JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.

SENATOR JOE MANCHIN OF WEST VIRGINIA, ONE OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE, ALSO SAYS HE WILL VOTE TO CONFIRM PRESIDENT BIDEN'S PICK.

AND WITH NONE OF THE SENATE DEMOCRATS SAYING THEY WILL VOTE AGAINST HER, HER CONFIRMATION SEEMS ASSURED.

SENATOR COLLINS SAYS JUDGE JACKSON, QUOTE, POSSESSES THE EXPERIENCE, QUALIFICATIONS, AND INTEGRITY TO SERVE AS AN ASSOCIATE JUSTICE ON THE SUPREME COURT, END QUOTE.

SHE WILL BE THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO SIT ON THE HIGHEST COURT IN THE LAND.

JOINING ME TODAY ARE CONGRESSWOMAN ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, D.C.

DELEGATE; ANNE STONE, PAUL REPUBLICAN POLITICAL CONSULTANT; DANIELI, MOST OF THE PODCAST WOKE AF DAILY, AND COHOST OF DEMOCRACY-ISH, AND RINA SHAH, POLITICAL STRATEGIC ADVISOR.

SO, ELEANOR, IS THIS A SIGN THAT BIPARTISAN IS NOT DEAD YET?

>> Congresswoman Norton: I'M AFRAID IS NOT, BONNIE.

BECAUSE SUSAN COLLINS IS A MODERATE REPUBLICAN, AND I THINK WE COULD ALWAYS HAVE EXPECTED HER TO VOTE TO CONFIRM THIS NEW SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.

>> Bonnie: WELL, IS IT NOT ALSO THAT SHE -- SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY SHE WAS WOMEN A LOT FOR SUPPORTING JUSTICE KAVANAUGH'S CONFIRMATION?

>> Congresswoman Norton: PERHAPS SO.

BUT -- BUT I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND THIS MODERATE SENATOR TO BE WHERE SHE IS IN ANY CASE> Bonnie: HOW ABOUT YOU, RINA, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Rina Shah: YOU KNOW, BONNIE, THE WHAT ABOUTISM IS THIS ENTIRE AREA AND INCONGRUENT INFORMATION HEARING IS DRIVING ME INSANE.

I THINK WE HAVE FAILED TO LOOK AT KETANJI BROWN JACKSON FOR WHICH HE IS AS A PERSON IN STANDALONE.

LOOK, THE U.S. SENATE HAS THE DYNAMICS MAKE IT SUCH THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT EACH INDIVIDUAL SENATOR.WE HAVE JUST LEARNED THAT RECENTLY THAT SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM OF SOUTH CAROLINA, WHO THREW A HISSY FIT AND STORMED OUT OF THE CONFIRMATION HEARING, HE HAS SAID HE WILL NOT VOTE FOR KETANJI BROWN JACKSON.

I THINK THIS IS THE PROBLEM HERE, IS THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT EACH SENATOR AND WE HAVE TO SAY, WELL, WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

BUT I THINK WE CAN STILL EXPECT, HOPEFULLY, THAT SENATOR MITT ROMNEY AND SENATOR LISA MURKOWSKI MAY JOIN, TWO REPUBLICANS WHO AGAIN MAY CONFIRM, VOTE TO CONFIRM.

BUT WE REALLY HAVE LOST SOMETHING HERE, AND IT'S JUST LOOKING AT THIS INCREDIBLE JUDGE FOR WHO SHE IS AND NOT COMPARING HER TO THE OTHER JUSTICES, THEIR CONFIRMATION HEARINGS, AS WELL AS THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE ALSO BROUGHT IN THE RUNNING, SUCH AS -- >> Bonnie: I HAVE TO GET OVER TO DANIELLE.

DANIELLE, YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT IT.

IS A PREJUDICE, RACISM AT WORK HERE?

>> Danielle Moodie: I MEAN, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, BONNIE, HAS TURNED ITSELF INTO THE WHITE NATIONALIST PARTY.

I MEAN, WHEN WE WATCH THE CONFIRMATION HEARING, THE VILE THINGS ARE COMING OUT OF THEIR MOUSE FROM TED CRUZ TO LINDSEY GRAHAM, I MEAN, I THINK IT'S OBSCENE.

AND I THINK OUR DESIRE TO HAVE BIPARTISANSHIP IS A FALLACY.

MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DO NOT CARE.

MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WATCHING THIS RIGHT NOW DO NOT CARE AND I WOULD LOVE FOR DEMOCRATS TO BE ABLE TO CALL OUT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN AND WHAT WE SEE FROM THIS REPUBLICAN PARTY AS WHAT IT IS.

IT'S NOT IF THERE IS RACISM, IT IS HOW MUCH THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHTELL US WHY PEOPLE SHOULD CARE.

WHAT IS YOUR IMPACT GOING TO BE ON THE COURT?

>> Danielle Moodie: I MEAN, THE FACT IS WE HAVE A 6-3 COURT BECAUSE MITCH McCONNELL STOLE A SUPREME COURT SEAT.

WE HAVE A 6-3 COURT, SO KETANJI BROWN JACKSON RIGHT NOW IN THIS MOMENT IS NOT GOING TO HAVE A DEEP IMPACT ON THE DECISIONS THAT THE COURT IS GOING TO BE MAKING.

SHE WILL HAVE A DEEP IMPACT IN GENERATIONS TO COME.

IF WE ARE ABLE TO GET BACK TO A COURT THAT IS AN POLITICIZED, THAT IS NOT, YOU KNOW, THAT HASN'T LOST, YOU KNOW, THE FATE OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

SO GOD WILLING WE WILL SEE THAT AT SOME TIME, BUT RIGHT NOW WE ARE LOCKED IN THIS COURT.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

ANN, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> Ann Stone: I'LL PRESENT ANY OF YOU TO THE COUNTRY.

IF YOU RUN A TAPE OF THE KAVANAUGH HEARINGS VERSUS THIS ONE COMMUTE SEE THIS WAS NOT A VILE HEARING.

BUT I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE QUESTION OF SUSAN COLLINS, SOMEBODY WHO I'VE WORKED WITH FOR YEARS, GOOD FRIEND, WORKED ON MANY ISSUES REGARDING WOMEN.

AND I WILL TELL YOU, ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK REALLY WEIGHING ON HER WAS THE FACT THAT BROWN IS GOING TO BE THE FIRST AID WAS REALLY GOING TO BE AN IMPORTANT ROLE MODEL FOR WOMEN ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND THAT IS SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO SUSAN HE RUN FOR OFFICE DIFFERENT BECAUSE OF MARGARET CHASE SMITH, THE IMPACT, THE FIRST WOMAN ELECTED FROM MAINE, HAD ON HER AS A CHILD AND SHE KNOWS THE IMPORTANCE OF ROLE MODELS.

IS NOT LOST ON SUSAN.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

SO ASSUMING THAT SHE IS CONFIRMED, IS THERE ANYBODY THINKING THERE'S ANY CHANCE THAT SHE WON'T BE FOR SOME REASON?

>> Congresswoman Norton: SHE'S GOING TO BE CONFIRMED.

SHE IS GOING TO BE CONFIRMED.

THIS 50 PENNIES SAID IT IN THE VICE PRESIDENT BEING ABLE TO VOTE, THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT SHE IS GOING TO BE CONFIRMED.

>> Bonnie: .IS IT GOING TO BE A 51 TO 49 VOTE?

DID WE NOT THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY DOWN THE LINE PARTISAN VOTES FOR SUPREME COURT JUSTICES IN RECENT YEARS.

BUT IS THIS GOING TO BE ONE OF THEM?

AND WHAT DOES THAT DO TO HER IMPACT?

>> Danielle Moodie: I MEAN, I DO THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO BE A VERY CLOSE VOTE AND I THINK THAT IT JUST SHOWS YOU, IT SHOWS ALL OF US HAVE DIVIDED THIS COUNTRY IS, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEBODY THAT'S AS OVERLY QUALIFIED AS KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, THE REPUBLICANS VOTED FOR HER MANY TIMES BEFORE BUT ARE MAKING THE DECISION NOW WITH MITCH McCONNELL TO NOT VOTE FOR HER BECAUSE OF THE IMPACT IN THE HISTORICAL IMPACT THEREOF, IT SHOWS US WHERE WE ARE.

>> Ann Stone: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Congresswoman Norton: THE WHOLE CAR HERE, ALL THE RETIRING SENATORS, THEY COULD BACK CAST A VOTE FOR HER AND GET AWAY WITH IT.

>> Bonnie: WHO WOULD THAT BE?

>> Congresswoman Norton: THERE ARE THREE RETIRING SENATORS.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

AND DO YOU -- DO WE KNOW WHERE SHE IS GOING TO ROLL ON ANYTHING?

DOES SHE HAVE A TRACK RECORD?

I KNOW SENATOR CRUZ RAISED THE ISSUE OF, IF YOU CAN CAN CALL IT AN ISSUE, OF HER GIVING LENIENT SENTENCES TO CHILD PORNOGRAPHY VIEWERS.

DO WE KNOW -- AND THAT WAS DEBUNKED BY MANY DEMOCRATIC SENATORS.

BUT DO WE KNOW WHERE SHE'S GOING TO STAND ON IMPORTANT VOTES?

ANNE?

>> Ann Stone: I THINK ON ROE, SHE WILL BE ON THE SIDE OF THE PRO-CHOICE FOLKS.

AND AGAIN, I BELIEVE WITH WHAT RENA SAID EARLIER, AND THAT IS MURKOWSKI AND ROMNEY PROBABLY WILL VOTE FOR -- THAT MIGHT BE A COUPLE OF OF THE RETIRING SENATORS THAT WILL JOIN.

BUT I THINK MURKOWSKI AND COLLINS USUALLY MIRROR EACH OTHER AND ROMNEY, I THINK, MAY DO IT.

>> Bonnie: YOU THINK ROMNEY MIGHT?> Ann Stone: MIGHT, YEAH.

>> Bonnie: INTERESTING.

>> Ann Stone: HE'S TICKED OFF ENOUGH PEOPLE IN HIS STATE.

DOESN'T REALLY MATTER IF HE DOES OR NOT.

SO WHY NOT?

>> Congresswoman Norton: ROMNEY DID NOT VOTE FOR HER FOR THE COURT OF APPEALS, RIGHT?

>> Ann Stone: RIGHT.

>> Bonnie: HE'S GONE BACK AND FORTH.

AND MEAN, AS GOVERNOR, FORMER GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS, NOW A SENATOR FROM UTAH, I MEAN, YOU CAN UNDERSTAND HE'S GOT A DIFFERENT SUPPORT BASE AND HE HAS DEPLETED THOSE FACES.

>>> ALL RIGHT.

FROM THE FIRST BLACK FEMALE ON THE SUPREME COURT TO JOKES AT THE EXPENSE OF BLACK WOMEN.

EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE INFAMOUS OSCARS SLAP, AND SOME ARE WONDERING WHY ARE BLACK WOMEN SO OFTEN THE BUTT OF JOKES?

WILL SMITH SLAPPED CHRIS ROCK AT THE ACADEMY AWARDS AFTER THE COMEDIAN JOKED ABOUT JADA PINKETT SMITH'S ALOPECIA OR HAIR LOSS.

THE INCIDENT DOMINATED SOCIAL MEDIA THIS WEEK, BUT SOME COMMENTATORS SAY THE FACT PINKETT SMITH WAS TARGETED GOT LOST IN THE SHUFFLE.

THEY SAY SOCIETY SHOULD REFLECT ON WHY BLACK WOMEN MAY FEEL ESPECIALLY VULNERABLE WHEN THE TOPIC OF HAIR COMES UP.

ONE PERSON WHO ADDRESSED THAT DIRECTLY WAS REPRESENTATIVE AYANNA PRESLEY, MASSACHUSETTS DEMOCRAT, AND A WOMAN WHO ALSO HAS ALOPECIA.

SHE INITIALLY THANKED SMITH FOR, QUOTE, DEFENDING HIS WIFE, END QUOTE, LATER CLARIFYING THAT SHE DID NOT ENDORSE ANY KIND OF VIOLENCE.

LET'S START WITH JADA PINKETT SMITH.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, DANIELLE, ABOUT AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN FREQUENTLY, TOO FREQUENTLY BEING THE BUTT OF JOKES AND WHAT CHRIS ROCK MADE, YOU KNOW, MADE COMEDY OUT OF A SERIOUS PHYSICAL ISSUE?

>> Danielle Moodie: YEAH.

SO I WROTE ABOUT THIS FORADORA MAGAZINE ON MEDIUM THIS WEEK BECAUSE I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS IT INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

I MEAN, ONE, YOU KNOW, POINT OF COMEDY IS IN A LOT OF WAYS, WHEN YOU ARE A SKILLED COMEDIAN, AS I BELIEVE THAT CHRIS ROCK IS AT TIMES, IS TO BE ABLE TO BRING LIGHT TO SITUATIONS THAT ARE DARK FOR US TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT AND OPEN UP CONVERSATION.

HOWEVER, IN HIS JOKE, WHICH I DO NOT THINK THAT IT WAS, I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD BE JOKING ABOUT PEOPLE'S PHYSICAL -- PHYSICAL DISABILITIES, INVISIBLE OR VISIBLE DISABILITIES, WHICH ALOPECIA IS.

IT'S AN IMMUNOCOMPROMISED DISEASE.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, CHRIS ROCK DID A DOCUMENTARY CALLED GOOD HAIR, WHICH WAS ABOUT THE POLITICS OF BLACK WOMEN'S HAIR AND THE POLITICS THEREOF OF OUR APPEARANCE IN THE WAY IN WHICH THE SOCIETY HAS ALWAYS TREATED BLACK WOMEN.

AND SO, FOR HIM AGAIN TO MAKE A JOKE, AND I USE THAT LOOSELY ABOUT JADA PINKETT SMITH IN A ROOM FULL OF HER PEERS, RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD, WAS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

I DO NOT CONDONE VIOLENCE AND I DO NOT CONDONE THE ACTIONS THAT WILL SMITH TALK, BUT I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW YOU CAN BE WITH YOUR WIFE AND SEE THE PRIVATE STRUGGLES THAT THE WORLD DOES NOT SEE AND THE PAIN THAT SHE GOES THROUGH, WHICH HE HAS MADE PUBLIC FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, AND THEN WENT TO TAKE ACTION IN THAT.

IT WAS THE WRONG ACTION, BUT I CAN UNDERSTAND IT.

NO, I THINK THAT THIS OPENS UP A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT SHOULD AND SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO BE MADE FUN OF.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS PEOPLE'S APPEARANCE AND I THINK THAT THAT IS PEOPLE'S HEALTH AND WELL-BEING.

>> Bonnie: ELINOR, YOUR THOUGHTS.

FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU LIKE BLACK WOMEN ARE SINGLED OUT TO BE THE BUTT OF JOKES BY COMEDIANS, BY PEOPLE, AND JUST PEOPLE IN CONVERSATION?

>> Congresswoman Norton: I HADN'T PARTICULARLY NOTED THAT, BUT IT COULD BE THE CASE.

THE FACT IS THAT THE CONGRESS HAS JUST PASSED A BILL CALLED THE CROWN ACT, WHICH ACKNOWLEDGES AND BARS DISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF A PERSON'S HAIR.

NOW, YOU SEE ON THE SCREEN TWO DIFFERENT STYLES THAT AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN HAVE.

SO THE NOTION THAT IT WILL TAKE A BILL TO IN FACT GET RID OF THIS DISCRIMINATION DOES SAY THAT IT IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

OKAY.

I THINK NOTING IT WAS IMPORTANT.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

ANNE, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Ann Stone: WELL, IF I SAY THIS, PROBABLY GOING TO GET STUFF THROWN AT ME BUT I'M PROBABLY GOING TO ANYWAY.

BACK IN MY 20S WHEN I WAS FIRST GETTING INTO BUSINESS, BECAUSE I HAD BLONDE HAIR AND BLONDES ARE STILL THE BUTT OF JOKES AND STEREOTYPED AS BEING STUPID, I HAD TO OVERCOME, YOU KNOW, THAT VERY EARLY ON TO GET MAIL CLIENTS TO TAKE ME SERIOUSLY.

NOW, I DON'T EQUATE MY EXPERIENCE AT ALL WITH WHAT ELEANOR AND DANIELLE ARE GOING THROUGH OR ANY BLACK WOMAN, BUT I UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS TO BE, YOU KNOW, STEREOTYPED AND PUT DOWN.

AND IT DID.

IT TOOK A LOT TO OVERCOME THAT.

SO I HAVE ALWAYS STOOD UP FOR BLONDES.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHTO, RINA, ZARON WOMAN, DO YOU FEEL LIKE BROWN WOMEN ARE THE BUTT OF JOKES IN GREATER PERCENTAGES THAN OTHER GROUPS?

>> Rina Shah: I CAN.

>> Congresswoman Norton: THE IMPORTANCE OF HER BECAUSE I CAN COME FROM A CULTURE OF EAST INDIAN CULTURE THAT REALLY PRIORITIZES HAIR.

HERE HAS BEEN POLITICAL IN THE MODERN ERA, RIGHT?

WE REMEMBER BEYONC TALKING ABOUT BECKY WITH THE GOOD HAIR AND I, ON THE SHOW, HAVE TALKED ABOUT MY OWN PERSONAL EXPENSES OF BEING IN A METROPOLITAN AREA AND BEING ASKED IF I WAS ON MY OWN HAIR.

SO I UNDERSTAND THAT HAIR IS SO MANY THINGS TO SO MANY PEOPLE.

AND I THINK THE REAL PROBLEM HERE IS THAT WE DON'T RECOGNIZE THAT EVERYBODY'S STRUGGLE IS DIFFERENT IN THAT EACH INDIVIDUAL IS GOING TO TAKE A SITUATION THAT REFERS TO SOMETHING THAT IS PERSONAL TO THEM A DEAL WITH IT IN A DIFFERENT WAY.AND THAT IS WHAT WILL SMITH DID, AND WAS IT DEFENDING HIS WIFE'S HONOR?

I DON'T KNOW.

I REALLY THINK OBVIOUSLY I AGREE WITH DANIELLE, THAT VIOLENCE IN ANY FORM IS WRONG.

BUT I DO UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT HAIR, IS DIFFERENT AND SO MANY OTHER BEAUTY ISSUES.

AND ALOPECIA AFFECTS I THINK OVER 1 MILLION AMERICANS IN GENERAL, AND IT REALLY DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTS AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN MORE SO THAN WHITE NATION AMERICAN WOMEN.

SO WE REALLY NEED TO TAKE IN ACCOUNT THE PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCES.

I WAS GLAD TO SEE THE CROWN ACT PASSED, BUT I THINK IN GENERAL, HERE WE ARE IN A MOMENT WHERE AM GLAD AWARENESS IS BEING DRIVEN, BUT ALSO THERE IS A BIGGER CONVERSATION TO BE HAD ABOUT CANCEL CULTURE, VIOLENCE WHEN WE DON'T LIKE SOMETHING WE HEAR, AND JUST A GREATER IMPACT ON WOMEN IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE.

AND I WELCOME THAT> Bonnie: OKAY.

AND I WISH WE HAD TIME FOR ALL THAT TODAY, BUT WE DON'T.

BUT I DO WANT TO SWITCH OVER TO THE FAMOUS SLAP AND WHAT THE PENALTY, IF ANY, SHOULD BE FOR THATANIELLE, DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD -- WILL SMITH SHOULD BE ABLE TO KEEP HIS OSCAR FROM PLAYING THE LEAD ROLE IN THE MOVIE KING RICHARD?

>> LET'S BE CLEAR, WHEN MOMENT IS NOT DISCOUNT WILL SMITH'S ENTIRE CAREER BUBBLING UP TO THIS MOMENT OF THIS OSCAR.

THIS IS NOT LIKE OH, KIDS GOT INTO A FIGHT SO I'M GOING TO REMOVE THE TROPHY FROM A TENNIS MATCH OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT IN HIGH SCHOOL.

THIS IS OSCAR THAT HE WON OUT RIGHT.

I AM SAD FOR HIM THAT HE MARRED THAT MOMENT, HIS MOMENT IN THE MOMENT OF THE WILLIAMS FAMILY, BUT THE REALITY IS HE EARNED IT.

I THINK THAT THERE'S A LARGER CONVERSATION TO HAVE, AS RENA SAID, BUT TO TAKE IT AWAY, NOT.

I THINK THE OSCARS SHOULD THINK ABOUT OTHER WAYS THEY CAN ADMONISH HIS BEHAVIOR, BUT THAT, NOT.

>> Bonnie: ELEANOR, YOUR THOUGHTS, BECAUSE, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT WILL SMITH, IF HE GETS AWAY WITH NO PUNISHMENT, WILL THAT TURN THE OSCARS INTO MARI POVICH, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HITTING EACH OTHER WITH CHAIRS OVER THE HEAD?

>> Congresswoman Norton: I DON'T FORESEE WHEN SHOULD RECEIVE THE DEATH PENALTY FOR THIS TERRIBLE THING HE DID.

I REMEMBER WHAT HE WAS DOING.

HE WAS WITH HIS WIFE, AND HIS WIFE WAS INSULTED.

MANY MEN FRANKLY MIGHT HAVE TAKEN SOME ACTION AT THAT POINT.

SO I WOULD NOT GIVE HIM THE DEATH PENALTY, BUT I CERTAINLY BELIEVE HE SHOULD RECEIVE SOME PENALTY, AND I BELIEVE HE WILL.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

FROM JOKES THAT ARE NOT ALWAYS FUNNY TO PAY EQUITY.

WOMEN UNDER 30 ARE CLOSING THE PAY GAP, OR OUTPACING THEIR MALE COWORKERS, AND 22 METROPOLITAN AREAS.

THAT ACCORDING TO A NEW PEW RESEARCH CENTER POLL.

NATIONALLY WOMEN UNDER 30 WORKED FULL-TIME YEAR-ROUND ABOUT $0.93 ON THE DOLLAR, COMPARED WITH SIMILARLY SITUATED MEN.

BUT WOMEN BETWEEN 35 AND 48 ONLY EARN 80% OF WHAT MEN ARE.

THOSE SAME 35 TO 48 YEAR OLDS ONLY MADE $0.88 TO THE DOLLAR WHEN THEY WERE UNDER 30 IN BOTH THE NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON, D.C. METRO AREAS, YOUNG WOMEN WORKING FULL TIME AND YEAR ROUND ARE EARNING 102% OF WHAT MEN IN THE SAME AGE GROUP ARE EARNING.

ANNE STONE, DO THINK IT MISSES GREAT PROGRESS FOR I REMEMBER BACK 20 YEARS AGO SEEING AND STUDY THAT SHOWED FEMALE PHD'S AND DURING THE WORK FOR US NEARLY HALF OF YOUNG WOMEN AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE LIVING IN AREAS WHERE THE PAY GAP IS CLOSING.

WERE MAKING $0.98 ON THE DOLLAR TO MAIL PHD'S.

SERVICES PROGRESS THAT NOW ALL WOMEN AND ALL WOMEN IN SOME CITIES ARE MAKING 102 PERCENT OF WHAT MEN EARN?

>> Ann Stone: I HAVE BEEN TEACHING FOR 40 YEARS, SKILLS SEMINARS TO GET THEM SKILLS TO ADVANCE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE -- REPORT A LOT OF RESOURCES OUT THERE.

WOMEN IN CITIES HAVE MORE ACCESS TO THOSE RESOURCES AS WELL.

YOUNGER WOMEN HAVE MORE DEGREES THAN THE MALE COUNTERPARTS IN THAT AGE RANGE, SO THAT IS PART OF WHAT IS CONTRIBUTING TO IT UT UNDERSTAND THESE ARE SINGLE WOMEN.

IF YOU ADD IN THE MOMMY TRACK STUFF, THAT'S REALLY START TO LOSE IN THE PAY EQUITY ARENA.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S A LOT OF FOUNDATION THAT ALL OF US HAVE BEEN A BUILDING FOR A LONG TIME, TEACHING WOMEN IT WAS ALL RIGHT TO ASK FOR MORE MONEY N FACT, IT WAS ONE MEN MAKE THEIR MEASURE OF THE SUCCESS WITH THAT WE NEEDED TO START DOING IT TOO, BECAUSE SO MANY WOMEN ARE LIKE, OH, I LIKE MY JOB, LIKE MY PEOPLE, I WORK WITH -- I DON'T REALLY CARE ABOUT THE MONEY.

WELL, YOU BETTER, SOONER GOING TO GET MORE.

SO TEACHING THEM NEGOTIATING SKILLS AND ALL THE STUFF THAT WE'VE DONE FOR SO MANY YEARS IS FINALLY PAYING OFF.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

AND DO YOU AGREE, DANIELLE?

>> Danielle Moodie: YEAH.

I THINK TWO AND'S POINT, WHICH IS A GOOD ONE, IT WAS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SINGLE WOMEN AND WOMEN THAT ARE MARRIED WITH CHILDREN WERE SINGLE WOMEN THAT HAVE CHILDREN AND THE WAY THAT THEY ARE TRACKED.

YES, WOMEN HAVE HAD TO HAVE MORE DEGREES, HAD TO INCREASE THEIR SKILL LOAD JUST TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH MEN WHO DO THE BARE MINIMUM.

SO THE FACT THAT THERE IS SOME SUCCESS THAT IS BEING HAD RIGHT NOW, PROVEAUX TO THEM.

>> Bonnie: REMINDS ME OF THE GINGER ROGERS QUOTE, SAYING THAT WOMEN HAVE TO -- WOMEN DID THE SAME BACKWARDS AND IN HIGH HEELS.

IS THAT STILL THE CASE, DANIELLE?

THESE WOMEN ARE EDUCATIONAL SUPERSTARS.

IS IT HAPPENING TO ALL GROUPS OF WOMEN, INCLUDING WOMEN OF COLOR?

>> Danielle Moodie: I MEAN, I WOULD SAY THIS, THAT THAT QUOTE IS GOING TO LIVE FOREVER BECAUSE IT IS ABSOLUTELY THE TRUTH.

AND I THINK THAT WHEN YOU ADD ON OTHER METRICS, WHEN YOU ADD ON RACE AND ETHNICITY, ADD ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION, GENDER IDENTITY AND, ALL THESE THINGS, THOSE NUMBERS, THE PERCENTAGE BEGINS TO SLIP AND WE NEED TO ASK OURSELVES AS A SOCIETYWIDE, WHY CAN WE STILL NOT PASS THE EQUAL PAY ACT?

WHY IS IT THAT WOMEN HAVE TO DOUBLE UP AND TRIPLE UP THEIR EFFORTS IN ORDER TO COMPETE WITH MEN THAT ARE ABLE TO WALK IN WITH THE BARE MINIMUM?

AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, SOCIETY IS CHANGING.

BUT WE ARE STILL DECADES AWAY FROM WHERE WE SHOULD BE.

AND IT WILL BE 100 YEARS BEFORE WOMEN ACTUALLY MAKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY AS MEN AND THEN BE CONSISTENT REGARDLESS OF MARRIAGE OR NOT.

>> Bonnie: RINA, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> Rina Shah: WELL, BONNIE, I MADE MY CAREER ON THE RIGHT AND WANTING THAT'S BEEN SO FRUSTRATING FOR YEARS IS THE MILLENNIAL IS THIS REJECTION OF THE GENDER WAGE GAP BY THE RIGHT, BY AND LARGE, JUST LARGELY RUN OFF.

AND THERE THERE'S TONS OF DATA THAT WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN INTO.

BUT I ENCOURAGE OUR VIEWERS TO GO DIG AROUND AND SEE WHAT THE RIGHT IS SAYING STILL IN THIS ERA.

THAT ASIDE, I WANT TO BRING UP A PERSONAL VIGNETTE THAT REALLY HAS REALLY BEEN TROUBLING FOR ME.

A FEW YEARS AGO, BEFORE THE PANDEMIC SET IN, I WAS ASKED TO JOIN THE BOARD OF A NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION THAT HAD SOME 7 MILLION AND IN ASSETS TO OVERSEE.

I WAS SO EXCITED THAT I WAS BEING AS FOR THE 400 AND THE BOARD CHAIR JOIN BECAUSE I WAS A BROWN WOMAN AND BECAUSE HE THOUGHT I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN HELPING WITH EVENTS.

I'VE NEVER COORDINATED EVENT IN MY LIFE.

AND SEE, THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

WHEN AMERICAN WOMEN GO INTO THE WORKPLACE, WE DO DO THESE THINGS THAT ARE IN ADDITION TO BEING HIGHLY COMPETENT IN THE WORK THAT WE'VE CHOSEN TO DO.

BUT WE'RE ALSO THROWING OFFICE PARTIES.

WE'RE ALSO COORDINATING EVENTS BECAUSE THEY'RE SEEN AS THINGS THAT WOMEN DO.

AND THAT WAS DISAPPOINTING TO ME BECAUSE I'VE NOW SERVED ON X NUMBER OF NONPROFIT BOARDS IN HOPES THAT ONE DAY I'LL GET TO SERVE ON A CORPORATE BOARD.

SO THERE'S THIS FEELING I THINK, AMONG ELDER MILLENNIAL WOMEN THAT I CAN SPEAK FOR BECAUSE I FIT THERE THAT ONE DAY THIS WILL ALL GET LEFT BEHIND.

AND I WAS REALLY ALARMED WHEN I CAME TO SEE SOME STATS THAT TOLD ME THAT WOMEN RECEIVE SMALLER ANNUAL SOCIAL SECURITY PAYMENTS THAN MEN.

THAT'S RIDICULOUS.

WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE GENDER WAGE GAP THAT CAN COST WOMEN MILLIONS WHEN THEY GO INTO RETIREMENT.

AND THAT'S JUST NOT SOMETHING THAT I'VE HAD TO KNOW AND ACCEPT UNTIL I'VE SEEN THE RAW DATA.

SO AM I UPSET WHEN I HEAR THAT SOME DEMOCRATS ARE RENEWING THE PUSH TO REALLY SHORE UP WHAT'S CALLED THE CARE ECONOMY, WHICH I'M PART OF AS A MOTHER?

>> Bonnie: ELEANOR, YOUR THOUGHTS ON WOMEN MAKING THIS PROGRESS.

YOU BELIEVE IT?

YOU THINK IT'S REALLY HAPPENING?

DO YOU SEE IT HAPPENING IN THE CITY YOU REPRESENT, WASHINGTON D.C.?

BECAUSE THAT'S ONE OF THE TOP MARKETS WHERE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE GOING ON.

>> Congresswoman Norton: YEAH, I DO NOTICE WHERE THIS IS HAPPENING, IN CITIES LIKE NEW YORK AND AND D.C., AND LOS ANGELES.

AND A LOT OF IS IT HAPPENING BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT WORK, BECAUSE GOVERNMENT IS FAR MORE LIKELY TO PAY WOMEN EQUAL, EQUAL TO MEN THAN PLACES WHERE THE PRIVATE SECTOR DOMINATES.

SO I WOULD TAKE ALL OF THIS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT.

THIS IS ONLY IN 22 METROPOLITAN AREAS.IT DOES SHOW -- IT DOES SHOW INCREASING SUCCESS, BUT IT'S YOUNGER WOMEN, WOMEN 30 AND UNDER, THAT, IT SEEMS TO ME, SHOWS THE CHANGING NATURE OF WORK, WHERE WORK IS FAR MORE MIND INTO AN INTELLECTUAL-ORIENTED, THEN ORIENTED IN OTHER WAYS, AS HAS BEEN THE CASE BEFORE THIS.

>> Bonnie: WELCOME AND LET ME SAY WHAT I THREW IT BEFORE, AND YOUR RESPONSE, PLEASE.

BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN STUDIES OVER TIME.

IT'S ALWAYS YOUNGER WOMEN WHO MAKE JUST ABOUT EQUAL PAY WITH MEN.

AND BECAUSE THE PREJUDICE, THE TIME THEY TAKE OFF FROM WORK, THE PREJUDICE THEY FACE, ETC., DOESN'T SET IN UNTIL THEY ARE PROBABLY 30S, 40S.

IS THAT NOT TRUE?

>> Congresswoman Norton: YEAH.

WHEN YOU FACTOR IN OVERTIME THE OLDER WOMAN GETS, THE MORE LIKELY SHE IS HAS BEEN IN THE WORKFORCE, THE LESS MONEY SHE'S GOING TO MAKE.

SHE'S HAD CHILDREN.

WE STILL ARE NOT PROVIDING CHILDCARE.

THAT'S JUST ONE OF THE LEADING PRIORITIES IN THE CONGRESS TODAY.

AND UNTIL YOU GET THAT KIND OF EQUALITY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANYTHING CLOSE TO EQUALITY FOR WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU ALL FOR THIS GREAT SHOW.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

LET'S KEEP TALKING ON TWITTER, FACEBOOK, INSTAGRAM AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE, PBS.org/TOTHECONTRARY.

AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK "TO THE CONTRARY", SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

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