(bright music) - [Sueann] We're in Spokane, Washington for the final episode of "Traverse Talks" Season Two, and I'm Sueann Ramella with Greg Mills, McKayla Fox, our producers, our audio engineers.

And this podcast is really only existing because of the two of you, why did you wanna keep it going?

- [Greg] Probably, I would say for the same reason that we wanted to start it, I guess it was twofold.

We work in public broadcasting.

And our audience is, dare I say, not young.

In general.

- [Sueann] For the traditional.

- Right.

- For the radio and the TV, and.

- Yeah, yeah.

And I think the we're seeing even a difficult transition, and have been for several years, even with traditional and commercial radio sources and television as well, trying to find a way to make our products, something that works in digital platforms and is distributed in non-traditional ways.

And I would say that that's really probably at the heart of the very reason that McKayla and I wanted to pursue this, is because it's a thing.

Podcasts are a thing, and they have been a thing for quite some time (chuckles) So, short story long, I think that that is at the heart of probably why we wanted to.

Because we need to move forward and we need to start thinking about distributing our thoughts and our creative endeavors in ways that are not over terrestrial, radio or cable or even terrestrial TV.

And we'll get into it, I'm sure, a lot more as we go, but I certainly have been, in the last two seasons, very pleasantly surprised at what started out as a very simple idea because we work at Washington state university's campus.

And so, we were very close to a lot of different writers and they were coming in.

- [Sueann] Visiting writers.

- [Greg] Visiting writers.

- [Sueann] And authors, and then you came in here, like, look.

- [Greg] Let's just do this.

- [Sueann] Look who's visiting.

- [McKayla] Yeah, my thought was, why would they say no?

Right?

To an, like an NPR station.

- [Sueann] The reputation is enough to get them in the door.

- [McKayla] Yeah, even if they did say no, that's the worst thing that could happen.

- [Sueann] Yeah.

- [McKayla] So, that was kind of our thought, was like, why would they say no?

And then even if they did say no, the worst thing that they said was no, and you just go, great, then we'll find the next person, and they'll hopefully say, yes.

- [Sueann] No, we got them through the door and they made me cry.

- [Greg] Almost immediately.

- [Sueann] I say that, well, look, you can't see this, dear listener, but they brought a box of tissue for me for this finale episode, just in case I teared up.

- [Greg] I'm pretty sure it's the same box of tissues we wanted to make sure that it was authentic from the studios in Pullman, Washington that we've done at least your part of the recordings.

- [Sueann] It is the WSU low bid sandpaper re-keyed.

I think the crime though, is because all our guests and their various ways, except for maybe a couple of them, have really spoke to very authentic, deep feelings about life, which is why I think this podcast is so good, people open up and share their life experiences, and some of those are pretty difficult.

- [McKayla] Which, I guess, to start the series, right?

We had Rika Aoki who usually had a connection with, I mean, the first season was all about your mother and we didn't know it was gonna be a crying season until Rika came on, and Rika came on and it was like, you brought in an Asian-American.

And it doesn't matter if she was Japanese, it's just that she's Asian-American, and I was like, my mom.

And she was like, my mom too (giggles) - [Sueann] The pain, and the pain is real, but it's not.

Okay, just so you know, even though I complain and the pain is real and the tears are real, there's just this really deep love with your Asian mother, because whether or not we wanna believe it, the sacrifices they may to come to this country and give you this opportunity and remind you that they sacrifice, it's so deep.

So, like I'm hearing her story and I felt it.

And we emailed, I emailed Rika afterwards and we talked about recipes and we talked about, wouldn't it be nice if we were closer, we could meet up.

There're just some people you meet in work that you wanna maybe become friends with after.

- [Greg] Yeah.

- [Sueann] Rika was great in discussing parts of identity, what part of the interview where you guys struck by?

- [McKayla] Well, we listened to an interview that she had with WSU a couple of weeks before we even interviewed her.

And it was the first time we listened to that poem that she reads, she doesn't actually read in the episode, it's a bonus extra, if you want to see it on our YouTube channel.

- [Greg] That poem spoke to anybody.

- [Sueann] To be accepted.

- [Greg] To, yeah, and do I reflect well on my family in the way that you'd be proud of me, sort of thing.

- [Sueann] Yeah.

- [Greg] And she certainly had a more tumbled in her growing up life than I have, but I can still relate to that poem, I guess that's why it was so touching, I thought, yeah.

- [McKayla] And I think with Becky Albertalli and Scott Leadingham, that kind of connection of how you present yourself to the world and how people react to that, like presenting.

She, in that poem, was more considered about her grandma.

And why did she make her grandma proud?

Where like Becky, she wrote as a, quote, unquote, cis-person and then came out so late after these books came out, it was like a backlash where maybe Rika maybe didn't have to deal with that since she presented herself.

- [Greg] So much earlier.

- [Sueann] The exploration.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- [Sueann] So, Albertalli's exploration was happening in front of an audience, while Rika had her transformation not so public.

- [McKayla] Exactly, and it was kind of just like, here I am, this is who I am, you can like it or not like it, where I think Becky had to deal with, I've already been successful, but now I'm going to come out as bisexual.

- [Sueann] And they see it as a marketing ploy.

- [McKayla] Exactly, Kind of, oh, this is just to sell your book.

- [Sueann] But I thought it was so interesting in her interview with Scott, that she was writing about herself.

- [McKayla] Subconsciously.

- Right.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- [Sueann] And how your brain can be sending you messages or your instincts and you keep ignoring it.

- [Greg] Right.

- [Sueann] You got a list there on your leg, Greg, what's on your list?

- [Greg] I guess Jennifer Griffin is the one that I have written down next.

- [Sueann] Jennifer Griffin, the dyslexia, she's not a dyslexia expert, her title is something different.

- [McKayla] She's a speech pathologist, in her emphasis, is dyslexia.

- [Sueann] Okay, and you have to explain how we got her as a guest.

- [McKayla] Basically, after I graduated college and I got into the real world, I like felt like there were certain situations where I started to learn about dyslexia and kind of more dived into it, and I was like, this seems like maybe this is something that was a part of my life.

And so, I would talk with Greg and one of our other coworkers, Matt, all the time about it.

Their favorite thing to do, is whenever we would have scripts or anything, they would love for me to read them aloud.

- [Sueann] Like big brothers.

- Exactly, exactly.

- Right.

- [Greg] 'Cause I, and I make fun of them for everything as well, so.

- [Greg] They call it bullying in HR.

- [McKayla] Yeah.

But so, whenever there was a script or something, they would always make me read a loud just because they thought it was hilarious whatever words I could come up with.

And so, I started researching dyslexia and then it kind of became this thing of like, okay, but I already graduated college, I have a job, who cares if I'm labeled dyslexic or not.

And then there was an article in this like Pullman newsletter about this dyslexia center called the Summit Dyslexia Center, which is where Jennifer Griffin works.

And so, when we had this opportunity of this podcast, I was like, Greg, I think we should get this lady on in a way of not having to pay copay.

Like if we get this lady in, then.

- [Greg] I might kinda know.

- [Sueann] Okay, so, just so you know, dear listener, McKayla also comes up with questions, we all do research.

Greg and I do research on all the guests and we compile our questions, and then I put them into my words and stuff.

But when I got the questions for Jennifer from McKayla about dyslexia, they were very specific questions.

I was like, dang, and then you told me.

You told me, you were like, yeah, this is kind of a personal one, and so, please ask these questions.

- [McKayla] Exactly, I was like, I know that six year olds aren't listening to our podcasts.

- [Sueann] Right.

- [McKayla] So, this might be beneficial for someone who's like, what are the signs I should be looking for?

So, I set up an appointment with Jennifer and we ended up doing three sessions.

And then a few leaks after, she called me and was like, show, yeah, you fit the profile of someone who does have dyslexia.

So, it is the sounds, right?

'Cause when she first asked like, well, why do you think you have dyslexia?

I'm like, sounds don't make sense to me.

Just the other day, squish.

- [Sueann] Squish.

- [McKayla] And I was like, I don't know what combination of letters make up the words squish.

- Sure.

- Because in your brain, there's a different way of connecting.

- [McKayla] Yeah.

- [Sueann] That is not what the majority has.

- [Sueann] Yeah, it's so good that she says it's like your brain, right?

Which- - It's not you.

- It's not you, right?

You're not being obnoxious about being like, can you spell that slower for me or whatever?

Like, I know the first letter is S, but it's like, as if all the letters in the alphabet just jumped into a Black Hole and were like, bye.

- [Greg] Yeah, the Q and the U jumped off first.

- [McKayla] Yeah, yeah.

And so, then I have to be like, Alexa, can you spell squish for me?

And she's like, yeah.

And then but then she spells it too fast, and I'm like, I only got the S, I'm like, I'm still stuck on the S. And I guess Jennifer said that like, some people with dyslexia, it's almost like they have to picture the letter in their brain for them to be like, okay, that's the letter I need to like write down.

Which sometimes, I feel like, so, when someone, I'm like, hey, how do you spell this word?

And they just rattle it off, I do get stuck 'cause I'm like, okay, I pictured the first letter you said, but then I was trying to picture what the second letter you said, and now you're already on seventh letter.

- [Sueann] What I love about this, is we are learning that, I mean, I think logically, we know not everybody thinks like we do, but it's such a shallow way of saying it, like literally people have different synapse that do or do not connect.

And they literally think differently than you do.

- [McKayla] Yeah.

And like the short-term memory and long-term memory, is it doesn't stick.

So, she was like, you're poor in short-term memory and long-term memory.

And so, it's this idea that I could figure out the word, squish, and then the next day I can be writing and it's gone.

- [Sueann] What does it feel like to have this answer?

- [McKayla] I think maybe more doubt, I feel validated in the sense that if I read something wrong and someone goes, that's not how that's pronounced.

And I go, oh, I have dyslexia.

And they go, if someone goes, oh, you're just saying that, it's like, no, no, I did the test.

- [Sueann] It'll take me 10 minutes to read this contract.

- [McKayla] Oh, if you hand me a piece of paper, I'm not reading it.

Oh yeah, like if there's any time a direction sheet she came around, and they're like, read the directions and like, pass it along.

I'd get it and I would wait the appropriate amount of time.

- [Sueann] You act.

Imagine how many people have acted all their lives.

- [Greg] Sure.

- [McKayla] Oh yeah.

And that was actually the thing Jennifer talked about is, during my test, she's like, okay, so, yes, we found out that you fit all the signs of someone who has dyslexia, but when I made you do things, 'cause a lot of the test was like, we use these words, they call they're made up words, what she does, and it's to get you out of this realm of- - [Sueann] What you memorized.

- [McKayla] what you've memorized, exactly.

But when we got into the test where it was real-world application, she was like, you got it down.

So, she's like, whatever tricks and trades you have learned, you've made it in the real world.

- [Sueann] It's working for you.

- [McKayla] Exactly.

- [Sueann] Speaking of making it in the real world, then we had a conversation with a dementia care specialist Judy Cornish.

- Yep.

- Yep.

- [Sueann] And we talked about different levels of losing dementia.

I was blown away when she said, if you reach the age of 80, you are definitely gonna have some form of dementia in America, by the time you die.

- [Greg] Yeah, and with our life expectancies increasing, our brains aren't necessarily following suit.

- [Sueann] And that dementia is not just Alzheimer's.

- [Greg] Right.

- [Sueann] That I did not know.

And then I really appreciated the way she described five ways that you think are your reasoning skills and how you lose maybe three of them by the time you get dementia, and what families can do to help save family wealth by caring for their elders at home.

Because I don't think Americans think they can.

- Yeah.

- Right?

Like everybody's like, if you get dementia, I'm putting you in a home.

- [Greg] Yeah, well I think there are some more traditional families, I guess, that are carrying on longer family traditions that will be more adept because they naturally feel like you take care of your elders as they age.

But I'd say by and large, the American family is not equipped.

- [Sueann] No, or they don't even think they can.

- [Sueann] Right, and part of it, is just 'cause they don't have any experience with it, what it drops out a generation or two ago, and you don't have any experience with it.

- [Sueann] Yeah, that's interesting when she said that.

- [McKayla] Well, even, what's her name?

- [Greg] Christine Hemp?

- [McKayla] Yes, Christine Hemp, where she talks about, actually like recognizing the reality that they're in.

- [Sueann] Yeah, bring them back to our reality isn't necessarily healthy.

- Yeah.

Then you said in the interview, we tend to wanna correct.

- [Sueann] Yeah, we do.

- [Greg] Instead of, it just joined them where they're at and take the stress out of that.

- [Sueann] Which I think we can apply to other areas of our societal life, is why do we insist on correcting people when they tell us, I'm really a man in a woman's body, or I have dyslexia, no, you don't, you graduated from college, you're fine.

Like, why do we feel like we have to correct people in order to fit what reality we think should be?

- [McKayla] Or even like Jesse Clyde, right?

Where his reality is just like, I'm living life.

Even after that interview and he left our studio, we were just like, I could not live that life, but why we putting our life onto him?

He seems so fine with it.

- [Sueann] Oh, he's so fine.

It was such a challenging interview for me because he didn't fit.

- [Greg] Oh, yeah.

- [Sueann] Like I am assuming, and this is so wrong of me to assume, that artists have pain, but Jesse.

- [Greg] Has joy.

- [Sueann] He's a just the happy guy.

- [Greg] I know.

I mean, you asked one question after another about whether or not he was supported by his family, did he run into sort of bullying and separation in school?

And the answer every single time, was no, I was just fully accepted, I just have nothing but great memories of all of it, thank you very much.

- [Sueann] Yeah, were you panicking?

- [Sueann] I was.

- [McKayla] As you were going through, I mean, 'cause, like you've said earlier, me and Greg would write a list out and you'll write a list out.

And I mean, the list usually isn't long, 'cause usually, people will talk, or you'll find something else to say.

I mean, you were going through that list pretty quickly.

- [Sueann] Well, we burned through that list.

And I try with the yes or no questions and extrapolate with him, but yeah, it was like.

- [McKayla] And then you turned it on, and said, okay, do you have questions?

'Cause he was so smitten with you the whole interview.

- [Greg] He was.

- [Sueann] I liked him at the end too after I got over myself, like he's not answering any of my questions, God damn it.

Like, wait a minute, slow with this guy, man, I want what you're on.

- [Greg] Exactly, and then you found it.

- [Sueann] I did, and then we had fun chat.

And when he asked me, what is it about my mother's painting?

- [Greg] Grab the tissues next to you.

- [Sueann] I'm gonna try my best.

I was like, wow, Jesse, way to go.

And I honestly would like to, he lives in Moscow, so I would really like to hang out with him because I find his way of looking at the world intriguing and I wanna know more because it seems peaceful, and he's onto something.

- [Greg] Right.

- [McKayla] Even when he talked about how like, you were like, oh, well, sometimes people paint and it's like pain, and people don't wanna confront that.

And he's like, well, that's just a part of you, or that's like as a fleeting part of you.

And like, again, it kind of the dyslexia, it's a part, but it's not like who you are.

And it can be something separate and you can kind of like find that, divide that, it it's my brain, it's not me.

And it's kind of him with like, it's that pain in that moment, but it's not who you are.

- It doesn't define.

- Yeah.

I thought that would part was like really just insanely interesting.

- [Greg] I did too, that interview in the end, especially the edited end, surprised the heck out of me, because it wound up being just this really fantastic, just got off the freeway and had a conversation that didn't, oh, every one of the conversations had its own individual flavor to it and a ride sometimes bumpy, sometimes not, between you and the person you were talking with, but that one was a real side road.

And it was cool because of that, I thought.

- [Sueann] He was, and I learned a lot.

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- [Sueann] Jesse's lifestyle, the artist, was inspiring to me because he doesn't need a lot.

- [McKayla] Yeah.

- [Sueann] And I have grown up needing a lot, and now I'm faced with this change.

But even with talking to a lot of our guests on the podcast, just different ways of living and being, it's you really don't need a lot.

- [Greg] But I think it brought up, and we've discovered it in many of the different guests that we've had, that it does get us to these places where we're really thinking about some things that we hadn't before, or.

- [Sueann] In our own lives, yeah.

- [Greg] In our own lives.

I mean, I don't know how many times we talked about relationship stuff, and I know we talked about Christine Hemp briefly.

Another chief part of her interview, was about a relationship that she had that was toxic with somebody that she saw as a real kindred spirit.

- [Sueann] Yeah.

- [Greg] And that one just stuck with me in so many levels because I could just look back and go pieces and parts of it and not everything was so toxic that I had to just leave it completely in the dust or whatever.

But just different relationships with people where you realize that it wasn't quite what it seemed.

And she had a really, I don't know if it was an artsy way of looking at it, it was kind of a whole way of looking at it.

I thought the way that she solved those problems kind of worked her way through realizing that she was in a toxic relationship and an emotionally abusive one, and she got out.

- Yeah, that's a game change.

- And not everybody gets out, or you don't get out with so big a scar, that you're as hurt as the person who was, that you were dealing with, as she said, definitely a person with deep hurt that she thought was her perfect match kind of thing.

And I guess along the lines of so many people that we talk to, and about so many different things that you talk to, it feels like we did.

- We do.

- [Greg] He had these headphones on, we listened to them, and editing them and finishing them, but so many perspectives and so many solutions to problems, especially with relationships.

And that one really hit me, it's like, gosh, I know somebody who was in one of those, wait a minute, that's kind of, sort of, at least in a sideswipe sort of way, kind of like a relationship I had, and.

- [Sueann] What did she say where she felt that she was living a lie, because the outward presence of the relationship was perfect, but when they went home and closed the door, it was a Jekyll Hyde kind of thing and she did not like living a lie.

And I really applaud her upbringing, it sounds like her family was really helpful for her and knowing her true North, knowing where her feelings were.

Because I think especially for a lot of women, we are really good at ignoring our true North and instincts because we want to please, or we want, or vision visualize the way it should be and we think can make it that way.

- [McKayla] The speaking of relationships, I also think that Sandy Williams also really talked about that as well, right?

The relationship from living as a black woman in Spokane and just like, as a White person who's just moved up to Spokane, there's this thing of, I can walk into any of these kind of stores and not really feel any kind of thing, right?

Because everyone there is White.

But she views this town as home, yet she walks into everyday life in feeling like she's still an outsider, and yet I've lived here month and a half or whatever.

- [Sueann] And you blend.

- [McKayla] And I can blend, exactly.

I really appreciated that point she made, because it made me realize that growing up, especially on an air force base in Tacoma, there were a lot of kids that looked like me and a lot of moms that look like my mom, and it felt good.

And then when we moved to (indistinct) because it had a higher school district.

I mean, I realized I didn't fit in so well.

Even though I blend, it was different.

It wasn't quite the same, people didn't get me any more, but that's okay, but you learn, it makes me a stronger person.

- [Greg] Right.

And Sandy said a lot of that too, about the strength, but also a lot about being exhausted by.

- [Sueann] And going home and finally relaxing and closing her door and just being herself.

- [Greg] Yeah, your whole life has a degree of exhaustion that just never goes away.

- [Sueann] 'Cause it's work.

- [Greg] Yeah.

- [Sueann] 'Cause you're always kind of assessing situations and choosing words.

When I have a feeling when you're with your people, and I don't want people to think I'm being divisive when I say this, but I think you get what I mean when you have your friends, your inner circle, and you can say the craziest shit and it can be funny and they roll with you, but you cannot do that with everybody.

- [McKayla] No, I mean like when you asked her, where is it safe for you to be Black in Spokane?

And she's like, my house.

- [Sueann] You just reminded me of something I talked with my mom about, 'cause we can't get through this interview without me mentioning my mom.

- [McKayla] Of course, and we were hoping, yes.

- [Greg] This podcast is essentially about you.

- [McKayla] I Know, it really shouldn't be called, "Ramella's Mom."

- [Sueann] "Ramella's Mom."

- [Greg] But I'm glad we're sticking with "Traverse Talks," 'cause then we can just sort of keep it as an underlying theme, and not have to.

- [Sueann] And there is no danger of her ever hearing these conversations, she doesn't even know what email is.

Okay, so, she's said to me.

My mother is very conservative.

So, like her version of Korean culture and married to a military man and just they're conservative and religious.

But I was so happy to hear her say this story.

When she goes shopping, she always looks for the youngest cashier.

Boy or, girl, White or Brown or Black, young one.

Because the young ones treat her nice, like she belongs there.

The older ones, she said they have, the older ones already knowhow to treat people like me, but the younger ones, they haven't been yet.

And I was so sad for her.

- [Greg] Yeah.

- [Sueann] But then I said, but mother, it's the young ones that you keep complaining about that they're actively not othering people.

- [Sueann] Yeah, and I think we've talked about this after the podcast too, right?

Of like, it seems like that group is really trying to make sure that we break the cycle.

- [Sueann] Yes.

- [McKayla] whether it was in our own home or not, that you're breaking the cycle of what the generation before you did and saying, I'm actively every day waking up going, I'm not gonna do that.

- [Sueann] There's a lot more thinking internally.

And I think there's more mixing of family, so, you may have a cousin who is a person of color, or thank you gaze, you may have a family member who is outwardly gay and you're like, oh, I still love you.

So, if you're different, but I can still love you, then can I still love other people who are different than me?

I think all of that combined has made this younger generation more open.

Like my daughter, she's grown up with, have you seen Shira, by the way?

The new Shira.

- [Greg] No.

- [Sueann] Is so inclusive, body types, colors, relationships.

I'm watching this, and I'm like, oh my God, Shira is a lesbian?

And then I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait.

And then we, we went through this whole show to her, it doesn't even, right?

- [Greg] That's just what you're speaking of, that after a while, you finally insist on changing enough that your generation does, or maybe it takes the next one.

- [McKayla] And then they're just like, yeah, - Yeah.

- Who cares?

- Yeah.

- Right?

- [Sueann] What I've noticed about all of our guests, is how much internal thinking they have done about who I am, where I belong, why am I treated this way?

Why do I treat people this way?

- [Greg] Right.

- [Sueann] And so.

this internal self absorbed, this is a healthy one compared to the other one, which is you owe me, this is my world, you comply to me.

- [Greg] I thought that was made just blisteringly clear when you spoke to Chigozie Obioma, who talked about racism and inclusion, and his experience is coming from Nigeria, but being this just way out there award-winning author, because of his outside himself sort of thinking, and how he applied that to his writing.

But his experiences were so personal, so down to earth, so real and raw when he was talking about the racism that he experienced in Turkey in particular, where he really learned some lessons there and he had made it clear to you that he had come from a family of means.

They were able to afford to send him to college, but the people that he was using as a parts of his stories were people that weren't so fortunate.

- [Sueann] Yeah, I always like when I talked to international people particularly, to ask them about their American-raised children, because I am always so curious how their culture background and watching their American children grow up, messes with the parents lines.

Because Nigerian, you raise these children in America.

In Nigeria, you were well off, but America is so amazingly wealthy.

- [Greg] Yeah, he said that a lot too, Chigozie did.

- [Sueann] Yeah.

Which was like, he took it home for me, America has no idea how wealthy it is.

- [McKayla] I like the word he used, was comfortable.

- [Sueann] Very comfortable.

I don't know if I said it at the interview with him, but I was like, man, a part of me really wishes my husband could get a sabbatical in another country just so I could show my kids.

This isn't what the world lives like, this is fantasy land in the rest of the world.

I just want my kids to have that experience because I think it gets lost as the more comfortable and older the generations get.

Perspective is always healthy, I think.

So, Chigozie, I also really appreciated how he's able to, well, that he uses so many, he knows so many languages.

And so, he understands a lot about culture.

And his one essay, which I don't know if we talked about, but it was, I wish I could unlearn a language, because he could hear what people were really saying about him, and that was really set to me.

- [McKayla] Yeah.

Well, that kind of like jumps into, I think with like Harold Scott.

- [Sueann] His idea about policing and community-based policing, and knowing who people are, and knowing who his neighbors are, so he could better help them instead of arresting them.

I feel bad thinking why that blew my mind.

- [Greg] Well, I think it falls under, he's giving the examples that a lot of what the perceptions are, I guess of what defunding the police are about.

He's talking about making sure that you are training people, so that they do know the people in the community and that they treat them with respect.

And a lot of the things that have gotten away from the police departments and precincts around the country that don't have that kind of respect for the people in their community, and then we've seen the obvious examples.

- [Sueann] I think there are examples of police who like they'll play basketball with the kids, get to know the homeless and they know them by name.

But those stories don't bubble up, and when there's times of real strife, those stories get forgotten.

- [Greg] Right, well, I mean, but a lot of it has to do with distribution of wealth and it has to do a great deal of poverty, it has to do with an incredible amount of, mostly, unrecognized, systemic racism.

- [Sueann] The history of why we have this style of policing, why they're armed.

- [Greg] Exactly.

- [Sueann] Well, this is the other part of that conversation, is human error.

I really think we don't give enough grace for the fact that there's a lot of human error in what we do on every level of work.

Not just policing, but even in this conversation, we could go back and a fact checker will be like, actually, technically, that wasn't quite accurate.

- Right.

- So, yeah, This is an opinion podcast, people, you need to look up stuff for yourself to make sure we're being accurate.

Send us an email after you download the podcast.

- [McKayla] Yeah.

- [Sueann] What else do we have?

We have.

- Josh Gortler and Esmy Jimenez, talk both immigrated to the United States, but in, well, I suppose similar, but different ways.

- [Sueann] One papered and one un-papered, is that what I would say, documented.

- [Greg] Documented, yeah, yeah, for sure.

- [Sueann] So, Josh Gortler escaped the Nazis with his family entirely intact, which is like amazing.

- [Greg] Amazing.

- [Sueann] And they end up in Arizona, which is Jewish and Arizona, probably the only Jewish family in the whole place, and realized he was White when he got on a bus.

- [Greg] He's an old enough gentlemen to have experienced that kind of segregation.

- [Sueann] Yeah, and he was like, holy crap, I'm White.

- [McKayla] But what I really liked about that episode, is that we had (indistinct) who is one of our coworkers, she came on and she said, talked about diversity.

And so, I think a lot of times when we talk about diversity, we are talking about skin color, but then there is this thing of, there is diversity in religion, - [Sueann] She came out.

- [McKayla] She, yeah, Jewish, Jewish, right?

Which in the office, we all knew she was Jewish and it never really- - [Sueann] Like her audience doesn't.

- [McKayla] Her audience doesn't.

- [Sueann] And the trepidation she felt about that, I mean that tells you what humanity has done to the Jewish people is so intense that a woman in 2021 is hesitant to say on air she's Jewish.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

That's something to think about.

And then Esmy Jimenez, her parents were hesitant for her to apply to be a dreamer.

- [McKayla] Yeah.

- [Sueann] They did not want her to be documented like that.

- [McKayla] There is a risk factor with that, and that's just, it's the thing that most Americans don't even have to deal with as they walked through life.

- [Sueann] Right.

Again, my mother was telling me the story about coming to the states on the airplane in 1976.

And the whole middle aisle of this jumbo jet was full of Korean or Korean-American adoptive babies, still in their prams.

So, the whole middle aisle, and there was a few women taking care of them, right?

And she, that whole plane ride was mostly full of children, and they all were being sent to America for a better life.

Now, they did get their papers and they were brought over through the church in Holt International and stuff.

But just the fact that there are people who are sometimes throwing their children across the fence, hoping to God that their life is better than what their came from.

- [Greg] Right.

- [Sueann] Oh my God, America, such a big responsibility.

That they're so desperate that they'll break the law in order to get their kids here, that's pretty intense.

- [McKayla] Yeah.

- [Greg] And a lot of your conversations with so many of our guests, we're at times pretty intense, we managed to hit on some sort of deep subjects.

And you said, when we started things off today just in this conversation, how wonderful it was, how opened up people became during those conversations about their feelings, about their experiences, about their emotions, about your emotions, about your mother.

Which is, I mean that I say that and we laugh, but it's one of my favorite parts about this season in particular, but this podcast is just how embedded in the conversation, you became an invested in it.

- [Sueann] Oh, thanks.

- [Greg] You are to be commanded, we really couldn't have done it without you as the host, I don't think, and had it moved forward so much.

I think we moved forward really fast.

- [Sueann] It's you guys who made me move forward.

- [Greg] No, that's great, I hope that, and I think we feel like we are certainly a part of that, but we really need to have somebody who's having those conversations who gets that stuff out of them.

- [Sueann] Well, thanks guys, I think that's a wrap.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, wrap on season two.

- [Sueann] Excellent.

- [McKayla] See you in season three.

- [Greg] Cheers.

- [Sueann] Cheers.

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