♪ ♪ GRAHAM: Good evening everyone, and welcome to P and P Live.

I'm Brad Graham, the co-owner of Politics and Prose, along with my life, Lissa Muscatine.

And we have a very revealing event for you this evening, especially for all you Washingtonians, because our guest is JoAnn Hill, who's here to talk about her new book, Secret Washington, DC.

JoAnn has lived in Washington for nearly two decades, writing about local experiences and also about travels with her husband on a blog called DCGlobeJotters.org.

She served as a DC public school teacher for 17 years before co-founding Capitol Teachers, a tutoring company servicing the greater DC area.

In Secret Washington, DC, JoAnn focuses, as her subtitle says, on the weird, wonderful, and obscure.

She tells stories about scandalous and creepy spots, highlighting some of the capital city's darker past.

It's really a fun and fascinating guide.

JoAnn will be in conversation with Andrea Peterson, a writer and artist here in DC.

She covered technology policy for the Washington Post before leaving the paper several years ago, and worked as an investigator at the Project on Government Oversight, and produces creative projects under her Plain Great Productions brand.

Please join me now in welcoming JoAnn Hill and Andrea Peterson.

HILL: Well, thank you, Brad.

And for the team at Politics and Prose, it is such a pleasure to be with all of you.

And thank you all who are joining us today.

I was at the Union Market location earlier today, signing a bunch of books.

And I had shared just how, just how awesome this is.

Politics and Prose has been one of my favorite bookstores for a very long time, not just in DC but really just throughout life.

And so to be able to do a book event and to be able to be a guest is just such a special treat and such an honor.

So thank you very, very much.

PETERSON: I'm so glad to be joining you to talk about this book, which is a wild and wonderful ride through our home city.

And let's get started with talking a little bit, JoAnn, about how you wrote the book.

How did this all come about?

HILL: Yeah, so it's kind of a crazy story, in the sense that if you would have asked me five years ago if I ever had plans to write a book, I never would have had plans to write a book.

I can tell you that.

So long story short, as Brad mentioned, I do write a travel blog and a DC-focused blog, as well.

And over a decade ago, my husband and I were traveling to Egypt.

And we met a couple from Galveston, Texas, who we hit it off with right away and kept in touch with over the years.

And so many, many years later, Christine, the wife of the couple, she'd been following my blog and so forth, and would share my blog with her community and so forth.

And so she reached out to me in fall of 2019.

And she texted me and said, hey, I'm writing a travel guide for Galveston, Texas.

And I think that you should write a travel guide for DC.

And of course, that took me by surprise.

You know, I don't know how to write a book.

But she put me in touch with her publisher, Reedy Press, which now is my publisher.

And before you know it, I was in contact with them.

And I sent some writing samples.

We talked through some possible topics and so forth.

And a few weeks later, I had a book contract.

And that's kind of how this all started.

And it was as surprising to me as...

But it's one of those things that, when an opportunity arises and it's a good opportunity, and it's a promising opportunity, you say yes.

And you make it happen.

So that's kind of how it started.

PETERSON: Well, and I know actually, once folks read the book, it will not be a surprise to anyone that you're an author.

It's just a fun collection of tidbits and stories and history.

And I'm a history nerd, so it all worked out perfectly for me.

And actually, if I can do a little bit of narcissism, let's talk a little bit about why I'm here actually talking to you about it.

And that's because I'm in the book.

HILL: So you are in the book.

And I, of course, I want you to talk about your beautiful artwork I have.

And we're going to talk about several artists who are featured in my book.

But you, of course, are prominently featured in my book for your amazing 10,000-penny shower stall.

And of course, I know you have so many other, you know, pieces of art around your house and so forth.

But I came across your story in DCist.

During my research, I researched and found so many different sources.

And that's how I came across your story and then got in touch with you, contacted you, and said, hey.

Can I come to your house and see your shower?

PETERSON: And I said, of course.

Because I love to show people my shower, as it turns out.

HILL: Yeah, it's a pretty incredible piece and it's something that I.

Initially, when you think of a shower stall that is decorated, adorned with pennies, you know, you're not sure what to expect.

But when my husband and I came over, I mean, we were blown away with just how stunning it was, how accurate it was, and just how bright and lustrous it was.

I mean, it really is a piece of art that I think it, for sure, exceeded expectations.

And I mean that.

And I already had high expectations, so to say the least.

But yeah, I mean, that was, you were one of, like I said, several artists who I was able to meet throughout this project, which I would say is probably, I would say, one of my favorite parts of this project.

And I had a lot favorite parts of this project, getting out and exploring and being able to go outside, especially during the pandemic, as I was researching outside places.

But also getting to meet fascinating people who I probably would have never met, if it wasn't for this project, right?

I mean, you and I probably wouldn't have, our paths may have not crossed if it wasn't for this book.

And I think other artists, as well, who I met, and musicians and so forth.

And so that was a real, that was a gift.

And that was something that happened very just organically but also just really delightful that happened, yeah.

PETERSON: Yeah.

I know that you featured actually some of my favorite sort of other outsider pieces of art in the book, including James Hampton's The Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations' Millennial General Assembly, or just The Throne, which is a piece of work by, as I said, James Hampton, who is an artist who lived in Washington, DC.

He was really largely unknown during his lifetime but created this beautiful, immersive piece of religious art that is now featured in the Smithsonian American Art Museum.

Let's talk about his art for a little bit.

HILL: Yeah.

So when I started writing this book, I sought out some friends who are historians and tour guides and curators and people who I knew.

And I met with one individual who was just such a wealth of knowledge.

And he led me to The Throne of Third Heaven, among many other places in the book.

But you know, he's like, there's this huge, enormous art installation in the American Art Museum.

And I don't remember what it's called.

It has tin foil, and it's made of all these different scraps and so forth.

And you need to go see it.

And so of course, the following weekend, I went to the art museum.

And I think you and I were talking about it, Andrea.

What's fascinating is that when you go see it, you can't believe that you never saw it before because it is so huge, right?

It is immense.

It is an enormous structure.

But at the same time, it is often overlooked, right?

In the sense that, you know, it's not in, it's not the neon map that people obviously go to often, or like the main places that people often go.

PETERSON: Like the Portrait Gallery and the President's Hall.

Like those, people know.

But like, if you go, it's on the main floor.

It's kind of like off, almost I think, past a gift shop.

You access like this and sort of there usually are other rotating galleries.

But part of the permanent exhibit, there on the sort of far corner on the main floor, is this enthralling throne.

HILL: And it's incredible.

In my book I call it, you know, like one man's junk is another man's masterpiece.

And it truly is a masterpiece.

But it's created out of recycled materials, right.

Tin foil, coffee cans, jelly jars, furniture, flower vases.

I mean, kind of like everything in the kitchen sink.

And it took about 14 years or so to create this structure.

And what's fascinating is James Hampton, he did this pretty privately and pretty quietly.

Most people didn't know he was doing this.

And he did this in this carriage car that he was renting.

He started in 1950, so in 1964, I believe, he passed away.

And it wasn't until the landlord discovered this masterpiece, after he passed away.

And then of course, it eventually made its way into the Smithsonian Art Museum.

PETERSON: Where it belongs.

HILL: Where it belongs.

And actually, it's so revered by the Smithsonian that, when they were doing renovations and they reopened in 2006, it was the first piece of art re-installed into the museum.

So that's how revered it is.

It's incredible.

It's two levels.

It's completely symmetrical.

The right side is attributed to the New Testament and Jesus.

The left side is the Old Testament and Moses.

I mean, it is a stunning piece of art.

You do not have to be religious to appreciate just its magnitude and just how incredible it is.

So yeah, that was one piece of art.

I know Brad mentioned the Vanadu House.

Should we talk about that?

PETERSON: Let's talk about that.

HILL: So the Vanadu House is, it's interesting because there are a lot of parallels between the Vanadu House and The Throne of Third Heaven in the sense that it's the use of recycled material and a lot of junk that you wouldn't necessarily think belongs in art.

And yet, it works.

And so Clarke Bedford, he is the individual behind the Vanadu House.

It's in Hyattsville, about seven, eight miles away.

And I have not met Clarke Bedford in person yet, just because of the pandemic.

We spoke many, many times.

Actually, he emailed me today.

We talk on the phone, and he is quite a character.

And I mean that in all the best ways.

He's lovely and wonderful.

PETERSON: All of the best people are characters.

HILL: Yeah.

And so, but you know, he's a former museum conservator.

And he basically decided to transform his very, you know, typical house into this piece of art.

And by using, you know, mosaics and mirrors and cut up license plates and all these things.

And has this really eccentric, highly ornate house.

And he also has four cars that are very ornate.

And he drives them around, and they make all this noise.

And they, of course, attract a lot of attention, which he loves.

And so it's another place that's in my book that is just, it's worth going to and making the trip.

And he takes people on tours, if you want, and so forth.

And so pretty fascinating, so anyway.

PETERSON: Yeah, definitely his house is sort of my long-term art goal.

It's probably not my husband's long-term art goal, but I think we can work towards it, maybe make some compromises.

I'm not, he'll probably at least let me do a weird art vehicle long-term.

HILL: Well, like Clarke is the man to ask.

He's the guy to talk to if you ever want me to connect you, yeah.

PETERSON: Oh, I know.

And I think you mentioned that you're hoping to do an event with him later this summer.

And I'm 100% first in line for that.

HILL: When we solidify a date, I will let you and the world know.

Absolutely, yeah.

PETERSON: Speaking of other characters, I would like to talk about James Mendelsohn.

HILL: So James Mendelsohn is the man behind all of the metro songs.

And so he's kind of considered like the metro guy.

And so he is another wonderful guy.

He's originally from Florida and moved to DC.

And as a musician decided that he wanted to pay tribute to this city that is now his adopted city.

And he wrote a song for every single metro station.

There are 91 metro stations in the whole... PETERSON: It's a lot!

HILL: It's a lot.

It's actually more than I ever knew, right?

Because you think about, you go all the way to Vienna and Greenbelt and so forth.

And so the 91 songs, they span eight albums.

And it took him about six and a half years or so to complete this project.

But I think what I love about this project is, A it's just such a quirky project, right?

But also the songs are very... PETERSON: They're good!

HILL: They're good.

And they are indicative of the neighborhood where that metro station is.

And he really does pay tribute to the neighborhoods.

Congress Heights Metro Station, for example, is about Saint Elizabeth's Hospital, which is actually featured in my book, which is a very crazy connection.

But you know, Saint Elizabeth's Hospital was like the first federally run psychiatric hospital in the nation.

And it's still over in that area.

But that song focuses on that.

And so if you go to each song, it really highlights the neighborhood, the culture, the people.

What I like about it is like the albums kind of connect, just like the metro kind of connects these neighborhoods together, too.

And so he's a great guy.

Not as, I would say, eccentric as Clarke Bedford, for example.

You know, a little more reserved.

But just wonderful.

He used to perform a lot at 930 Club and other places.

I think, you know, after the, everything slows down with the, you know, things kind of start to re-open up, we're also looking to do maybe a joint event.

So I'll keep you all posted about that.

But his songs are great.

They're available on like Songkick and so forth.

So he's awesome, yeah.

And the songs are, like you said, they're good.

They're really good.

PETERSON: Like and I didn't mean to suggest that they would be otherwise.

But you know, sometimes, when you do like a concept album, you stretch it out a lot.

And 91 is an awful long concept album.

It's more than 69 Love Songs, and I'm a big Magnetic Fields nerd.

I actually have like a concept album of like a series of feminist murder ballads that I wrote a few years back, under my folk band name MidMountain.

But there's only a handful of them.

There's not, there are not 91.

But if you want to find them, they're on Spotify and pretty much everywhere else under MidMountain, all one word.

HILL: Excellent.

I think that we should maybe get into some scandals and controversies that are in the book.

PETERSON: Let's do it.

There are plenty to choose from.

HILL: So when I say scandals, some of them are not dark and dismal.

And some of them are fun, and some of them are... And then also just some stories about some iconic places in DC.

So why not start with the more like light, and then we'll go a little dark?

Does that sound okay?

PETERSON: Let's do it.

HILL: Okay.

So obviously, a lot of places in my book are off the beaten path, places that people might not know about.

So for example, Chuck Brown Memorial Park in Northeast, which is a lovely park.

Or International Park in Upper Northwest, where Newton apple tree has been cloned and replanted there.

So those are some places that people might not know much about.

But of course, the National Mall is, you know, is obviously known, and for good reason.

So there are a lot of places in my book featured on the Mall.

But more so about the history or the hidden stories or maybe secrets of those iconic places that people might not know as much about.

So one place, and this is my favorite, one of my favorite stories in the entire book, is about the carousel on the Mall.

So the carousel actually came from an amusement park in, right outside of Baltimore called Gwynn Oak.

And this carousel was there.

And on the same day in 1993, I'm sorry, 1963, excuse me, that Martin Luther King delivered his "I Have A Dream" speech, that amusement park, Gwynn Oak, discontinued segregation.

And so it was also the same day that an African American child rode on the carousel with two white children.

And so it was really incredible and really kind of, you know, exemplified King's message of, you know, racial harmony, integration, and so forth.

And so fast-forward, that carousel eventually made its way to the Mall, right?

And so of course, it's there in the Mall.

And that story wasn't known until years later.

And when that story came out, I mean, what an amazing story.

And actually now, if you go to the carousel, there is a plaque that commemorates, that story of the children riding on the carousel together.

But it's also, how incredible that the carousel sits at a spot not too far from where King delivered this speech, right?

And so it's all kind of, that's one of my favorite stories and a very feel-good story.

Another nice story that I like is at the World War II Memorial, if you look behind the Pennsylvania Pillar, there is what looks like graffiti.

It's a sketch.

And it's of this bald-headed man with this very long nose.

And there's an etch that says "Kilroy was here."

And so the reason why that graffiti is there today is that during World War II, this actual graffiti, this piece of art, quote unquote, was kind of found at different places around the world where battles were fought.

And the whole point of this graffiti was to let soldiers know, while they were in battle, that they were not alone.

That someone was there.

Kilroy was there.

So it's just kind of to remind these frightened soldiers, like, you're not alone even though you are in this terrifying, dangerous situation.

Someone is here to give you comfort.

And so next thing at the World War II Memorial, if you go behind Pennsylvania Pillar, you have to really look for it.

It's just, you know, and it's interesting, right?

I've been to that memorial countless times.

I go running there.

I walk my dog there.

I never would have known it was there, and I definitely didn't know the story before researching.

So it's a nice place to go and visit and just to see and just to kind of know the story behind it, for sure.

PETERSON: It's also just a nice piece, again, about how art sort of connects us all.

HILL: Exactly, absolutely.

PETERSON: And you find it in the places that you may least expect it.

HILL: 1,000%, yeah.

PETERSON: Also, I have another finding things in a place that you least expect it one from the Mall, before we go on to more tragic stories there.

The miniature Washington Monument that's underground.

HILL: This was so fun to find.

As Brad mentioned, I am a former DC public school teacher, and I taught third grade.

And in third grade in DC public schools, you teach in social studies all about DC.

So it's all about the city of DC, landmarks, memorials, monuments, neighborhoods, and so forth.

And so I have taken students on the Mall and to the Washington Monuments countless times.

I've had park rangers come for visits and so forth, right?

But I found out, through my research, that there's actually a little replica of the Washington Monument that measures 12 feet tall.

And it's underground.

So it's under a manhole.

But what's really cool about this replica, actually, it's meant to be as helping with a system, like for surveyors, as part of a system that helps maps and synchronize maps all around the country.

So it's part of like a million-point system.

But what's interesting is usually these markers that do this are not replicas of, you know, a national monument.

They're metal rods or metal cups or something like that.

So it's really quite fascinating that instead, they chose to do a 12-foot replica.

And so you can't see it.

It's covered.

But in, I'm just checking dates to make sure, in 2019, the National Park Service actually did unveil it to individuals.

And people were able to see it for a very short amount of time.

And, you know, ooh and aah over it.

And then it was deposited again underground.

I have been told that if you find the right park ranger and so forth, it's right next to the Washington Monument.

So it's in that area.

You know, some park rangers will help you find it and will even uncover it.

I have not been able to do that yet, so.

But there are stories of some park rangers.

It's there, and it's worth trying the next time you see a park ranger.

PETERSON: And I throw it out out here, park rangers generally very helpful, wonderful people.

They have the good stories.

You should ask them.

There are plenty.

Like, they may not have all the good stories in JoAnn's book.

But generally, they're very useful, wonderful people.

HILL: You know, when I was researching this book and I was out on the Mall and so forth, this is a little bit before the pandemic, when they were, you know, park rangers were out and about a little bit more, I mean, I went on walking tours.

I did so many things.

But I would go up to park rangers and just ask questions and say, hey I'm writing a book.

Like, do you have a couple minutes?

You know, especially I would find individuals who were by themselves, not leading a tour.

And every single individual, and not just park rangers, but you know, docents and tour guides, were more than generous with their time.

And they want to share their information with you.

They want to share their knowledge, and they're excited to share that.

So yeah, ask questions.

Because I promise they will tell you things that they know that you may not know.

So yeah.

But we have some dark things on the National Mall, too.

PETERSON: Yeah, let's talk about bad things.

HILL: Okay, so let's talk about bad things.

So one of the bad things, and then I'll talk a little bit about more like a fun story.

So in front of the National Gallery of Art, that used to be a railroad station.

It was Baltimore-Potomac Railroad Station.

And that was actually where James Garfield was assassinated.

So President James Garfield, our 20th president, he only served for four months.

He was assassin... he was shot there.

And the story's so very bizarre, in the sense that the gentleman who shot him, his name is Charles, PETERSON: Charles Guiteau!

HILL: Charles Guiteau.

He was an attorney.

And he was definitely someone who was, you know, known in society and was a pretty, you know, prominent individual in society.

He campaigned for Garfield.

And so but he became quite obsessed and quite delusional.

And so he felt that he was kind of the individual who was responsible for winning the election, right?

So winning the presidency.

He thought that he single- handedly kind of did this, whereas he was not responsible.

You know, he had a couple campaign, PETERSON: He was a man who had a lot of delusions.

I actually read this fascinating book about him several years ago, specifically about his trial.

And I believe it was literally called The Trial of the Assassin Guiteau, that was about how this was actually.

His trial was actually a landmark case in how we handle sort of insanity defenses, at the time, because he was one of the first high-profile cases to try and claim that defense.

HILL: Yeah, absolutely.

And so what's even kind of crazier about this story is, so he, you know, he's delusional.

And he feels slighted, right?

He wants more of a role in the, you know, in the administration.

He doesn't get it.

Garfield kind of dismisses, well, doesn't kind of.

Dismisses him.

And he becomes very angry, and he feels, you know, has resentment.

And he ends up shooting Garfield.

But what's even kind of, to make it even more tragic, is that Garfield didn't die right away.

And actually, it's been kind of discussed that you know, if it was today or more modern times, when, you know, medicine was more advanced or instruments were sterilized, right, he actually probably could have lived.

So they were, you know, for almost two months or so, doctors were probing him.

And, you know, but they were like sticking instruments in him that were not sterilized and caused... PETERSON: Turns out, it's a good thing to wash your hands.

We learned that a little bit too late for President Garfield.

HILL: Right.

And so, and also they continued to feed him really like rich food that he obviously couldn't handle.

He wasn't well enough to handle this really rich, indulgent food.

And so you know, it's... Guiteau definitely shot him and so forth.

But you know, he definitely died just because of modern medicine and just lack of knowledge at that time.

And so it's kind of, so yeah, very short presidency, four months.

And yeah.

PETERSON: 1800s was not a good time to be shot, although frankly, there is never a good time to be shot.

HILL: Never a good time to be shot, but definitely not in the 1800s, when medicine isn't as advanced as it is today.

PETERSON: Do you want to talk a little bit about some spooky things related to the Lincoln assassination?

HILL: Oh, yes.

And I can talk, I actually have two great... PETERSON: Several.

You have many options, JoAnn.

Where do you want to go?

HILL: Well, you know what's crazy, too, and I did a podcast a couple of weeks ago.

And they asked me, you know, was there a certain era that you found yourself researching more?

And the Civil War era for sure.

And a lot of, a decent amount, a good amount of entries in my book revolve around the Civil War, Civil War era, and especially Lincoln.

I mean, there's, it's fascinating, right?

Of course, a devastating, dark time for our country and so forth.

But yeah.

So if you go to, we're going to go off the Mall for a little bit.

But then I want to go back to the Mall.

Remind me to talk about, go back to the Mall after this story, after these two stories.

If you go to Chinatown and you go to the restaurant Wok and Roll, which is, PETERSON: You should go to.

HILL: You should go to and eat there.

PETERSON: But more importantly, do the karaoke.

HILL: Yeah, that was, yes.

I remember karaoking there many years ago, when we first moved here.

So in Chinatown, next time you go, you might, you will see it probably.

There's a small plaque that commemorates that it used to be a boarding house.

It was the Mary Surratt Boarding House.

And so during the Civil War, Mary Surratt and her husband, they buy this space.

It's converted to a boarding house.

And her husband passes away.

And so she then, you know, runs this boarding house.

And individuals obviously would come in and out.

And but notably, the people behind, you know, plotting to kidnap and assassinate Lincoln are coming, including John Wilkes Booth.

She ends up working with them and actually provides them with guns and other things.

PETERSON: She's helping out.

HILL: She's helping out.

She's helping with the plotting of his assassination and so forth.

And so she actually, in history, was the first woman in American history to be executed for her role by hanging.

And so she obviously was found guilty for her involvement in this plot and of course, everything that happened.

So now, many years later, it is a Asian restaurant.

PETERSON: A delicious one with great karaoke that you can enjoy the history at when you're nearby.

HILL: But has a little bit of, you know, some dark history behind it.

And in speaking of Lincoln, Mary Todd Lincoln is fascinating.

PETERSON: She is a character, if you will.

HILL: She is a character.

And I learned a lot about her.

The entry in my book about Mary Todd Lincoln is, so during the Civil War era, seances, spirit circles became, PETERSON: Spiritualists.

HILL: Yes, became pretty popular, and popular among many individuals.

So whether you were an elitist or whether you were considered high society and wealthy... PETERSON: Most probably believed in ghosts.

HILL: You probably believed in ghosts.

And there was a good chance you attended these seances or spirit circles, mostly because you were trying to reconnect with someone who may have died in the war, right?

And so sadly, a lot of individuals did turn to these seances because there was so much death and so many casualties that they, that was the way to connect.

And so that's what Mary Todd Lincoln did.

She attended seances.

And she was a believer that she could be connected with her son, Willie, who died.

And so these mediums would come, and they would run these seances.

And there were, you know, rappings on the wall.

And there was, you know, sounds and, you know, maybe scratching on your arm and pulling the hair and so forth.

So President Abraham Lincoln, he was known to attend a couple with his wife.

Based on my research, not so much because he believed in the occult but more so just because he wanted to check it out, right?

He wanted to see if they were credible.

He wanted to make sure his wife was careful and being protected and so forth.

Well, long story short, there was this one individual medium who he doubted.

And this individual claimed that he was a duke, or I'm sorry, an illegitimate son of a duke.

And so Lincoln had his reservations about this man, and kind of sought out and talked to different individuals, and kind of had people investigate.

And of course, after some investigation, found out this man was indeed a fraud.

So but of course, this gentleman was angry that he was called a fraud and threatened to kind of you know disclose Mary Todd Lincoln's participation in these seances.

But also there to say, people knew that she was participating.

There was gossip.

You know, people had an idea.

PETERSON: She had a reputation for, even during her day, for sort of being in the like offensive terms of the time, a hysterical woman, et cetera.

When in fact, she was a woman who dealt with a lot of death and trauma within her immediate family.

And I think turned to different resources to try and manage that.

You know, another thing, this is like a fun sort of side trip of this, that sort of after Lincoln's death, she also was the target of a sort of ghost photo fraud person named Charles Mumler, who took like basically double-exposed pictures of things that showed like the loved ones of people hovering over them as sort of a comfort.

And was saying like oh, I can capture the spirits of your loved ones around you.

And instead, like in this new technology of photography, but was instead like the subject of another like really aggressive lawsuit about like fraud and photography and spiritualism.

HILL: Yeah, yeah.

It's, it's kind of crazy.

I mean, you really have to feel for what she went through.

I mean, so, like you said, just so much tragedy surrounding her.

But the other thing, but you know, the news kind of never, they kind of put a kibosh on it.

And it never kind of went out or got out.

But when they were in the, there were stories that she still continued to, it didn't deter her.

She still participated and attended seances and spirit circles in the White House.

And I have a good story in my book that we don't have to talk about right now.

But that of just about stories of the White House being haunted and different individuals seeing, you know, the ghost of Lincoln and so forth.

But she, again, wasn't deterred.

And there's no evidence that Lincoln, President Lincoln joined her at these seances at the White House.

Just at the soldier's home, which is now Lincoln's Cottage, which I know I go to often for bluegrass festivals and so forth.

PETERSON: It's a beautiful part of town.

HILL: Yeah, exactly.

So that's Mary Todd Lincoln and her participation in seances.

And then, which kind of leads me to many other fascinating women.

I researched and wrote about and.

So one of my favorite stories, I had mentioned the carousel was a favorite.

I mean, I love all the stories I wrote about.

But of course, you do have, PETERSON: It's like choosing a favorite child, I am sure.

HILL: Right.

But you do have ones that kind of, not children, but you know, you have ones that kind of stand out or resonate with you a little bit more, right?

And so this is another one that resonates with me.

So the Museum of the American Indian.

So now we're back on the National Mall.

The Museum of the American Indian was actually a former brothel.

This brothel was owned by a madam, Mary Ann Hall, who is buried in Congressional Cemetery, along with many prominent people.

I actually have two great entries in my book that take place in Congressional.

But this brothel that she owned, where the American Indian Museum now stands, wasn't just any brothel, right?

It was one of the most prestigious, one of the most successful, PETERSON: It was the good brothel.

HILL: It was the like, the creme de la creme of brothels.

And during this time, during the Civil War time, there were about 100 brothels, give or take, in the city.

PETERSON: It was a happening place.

It's still a happening place, but happening in a different way then.

HILL: Right.

So there was this area between, let's see, like Capitol Hill and Federal Triangle, give or take, that was called Hooker's Division.

And this is where a lot of the brothels stood.

And I mean, if you think about it during the Civil War, individuals, especially traveling men, were coming into the city.

Soldiers and generals and so forth.

And so brothels became a huge, huge business.

And so Mary Ann Hall opened up this brothel.

And like I said, it was pretty much considered the most successful brothel in the city, which for someone as a woman during that time to be this leading businesswoman.

And she was highly respected.

She was a socialite.

She was not judged or looked down upon.

And she was known to also take care of women.

So she provided healthcare.

She made sure that they were taken care of and so forth.

But years later, of course, after digging and so forth for the American Indian Museum, when they were excavating the land, they found a lot of artifacts and remnants from the brothel.

They found, you know, champagne flutes.

And they found china dishes and porcelain and things that led, that kind of proved they lived a quite, PETERSON: Evidence of people having a good time.

HILL: Yes.

But also that they were pretty well-to-do.

Like things that a lot of people didn't have access to, like champagne flutes and so forth.

So they were living quite a nice, quite a nice life and doing very, very well, yeah.

Can I quickly talk about some other just great outdoor places?

Just because I know, I think one of the things that I want to like kind of stress is that when I was writing this book, I started before the pandemic, right?

I started in fall of 2019.

And then of course, in March 2020, kind of everything changed.

And so some places that I wanted to be featured in my book, I just couldn't get to.

They were closed.

I didn't know when they were going to open, you know.

And so I shifted a lot to outdoor places.

And so places that I could get to, places that honestly, were also kind of gave me, helped my sanity, to be able to go out and explore and so forth.

But also, I knew that my readers could get to and, of course, being that they're outside, free.

And so the Arboretum, for sure, right?

PETERSON: That's my spot, to be honest.

It's like absolutely where I escaped to the most during the pandemic.

HILL: It's amazing.

So I have two entries in the book about the Arboretum, one being the Capitol Columns and just the, PETERSON: Just so people know, they're hard to miss.

HILL: They're hard to miss.

There are 22.

They're huge.

They're stunning, and they came from the capitol, the US Capitol.

And they're stunning.

But then also the other entries about the bonsai collection and the infamous bonsai tree.

So the bonsai museum is this great museum within the Arboretum.

What's amazing about this particular tree is that it survived the bombing of Hiroshima in 1945.

PETERSON: It is, and it's hundreds of years old.

HILL: It's about 400 years, give or take.

And so this survived the bombing.

And fortunately, so did its owners in Japan.

They survived, as well.

But then years later, the grandsons of the gentleman who owned this house and the bonsai tree came to visit the Arboretum from Japan to see the tree that belonged to their grandfather and that had survived.

So it's just this like beautiful story... Yeah, what are some other outdoor.

Well, (inaudible) place that I found myself at a lot of cemeteries.

There's a bunch of cemeteries featured in this book.

PETERSON: I have one outdoor place and then one cemetery story.

So my outdoor spot is Mallows Bay.

It's south of town a bit, but it is a ship graveyard where they have sunk all sorts of things from all sorts of different and naval engagements and all sorts of different eras of US naval history.

And you can launch there, kayak.

And on clear days, just like look down and see all of these ship ruins.

It's eerie and beautiful, and I thoroughly recommend a good kayak trip out there.

Although I also thoroughly recommend a good kayak trip, almost anywhere.

HILL: Anywhere, yeah.

No, that was a fun place to discover, yeah, Mallows Bay and shipwrecks.

PETERSON: And then my one cemetery story is actually about a place that's no longer there.

So the Columbian Harmony Cemetery was once where the Rhode Island Metro stop is now.

And it was one of the freemen's, African-American cemeteries that was built after the Civil, well, among free African Americans before and after the Civil War.

It housed a lot of the bodies of a lot of really luminaries of the African-American community here in DC, including Mary Ann Carey Shad, who was the first Black female lawyer in the US, who graduated from Howard here.

Her home is on the National Registry here, as well as Osborne Perry Anderson, who was the sole Black survivor of John Brown's raiding party on Harper's Ferry, who lived to tell this phenomenal story of it through a book that you can easily find online because it's in public domain, called All the Boys From Harper's Ferry.

If you have not figured this out, I am a huge John Brown nerd.

I do a lot of artwork related to him and also sort of the connections between Kansas history and the free states and Exoduster movement, which is free people who moved to Kansas, in part because they were inspired by the free-state movement sort of epitomized by John Brown's activities out there against the border ruffians of Missouri.

HILL: Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's incredible just how many amazing places.

I want to, really quickly, from Mallows Bay, which is so great, because I wrote about it.

And I haven't been able to kayak there.

They just started to open up kayaking tours once again.

And so I'm going kayaking there with the shipwrecks in July.

And so you can now book a tour and go there, which is amazing.

PETERSON: See, you don't even need your own kayaks now.

HILL: Yes.

And my one last outdoor place that I want to talk about, and then Q and A, that I can't believe, I'll keep it short, Barbie Pond.

PETERSON: Yes, we missed Barbie Pond.

HILL: So Barbie Pond, Avenue Q, which I know Brad mentioned at the very beginning, is, it's in Northwest on Q Street between 14th and 15th.

So like DuPont, Logan Circle.

And what it is, it's basically, it's the front yard of a couple who lives there that you can just walk by on the sidewalk.

And they are artists.

And they pretty much try to keep themselves anonymous, right?

Most people don't know who they are.

Even when I was corresponding with them through Instagram messaging, I don't know their names.

They're very nice.

So they basically do these art installations with Barbie dolls.

But they are incredible.

And so what's great is that, PETERSON: And rotating.

They change all the time.

HILL: Once a month or so, they rotate these installations and these displays.

But they're always themed, right?

And so if you go during Halloween, it's incredible.

If you go during Saint Patrick's Day, you know.

So they do a lot around holidays.

But then they also do themes around the political climate, right?

So during the election, they had these great installations about, you know, urging people to vote and so forth.

They also do themes about inclusion.

They also do themes about pop culture.

They're just so smart, so creative, so much more than just Barbie dolls at that.

And every time I go, I leave with a big smile on my face.

And people just walking by just stop, look.

I mean literally, you know.

And then right now, I think, or at least the last one I saw on Instagram was the Roaring Twenties.

And so they have these Barbie dolls dressed in flapper dresses with champagne flutes and so forth.

And I love that it's, you know, kind of like paying tribute to the Roaring Twenties, in the 1920s.

But also now, as we kind of emerge out of the pandemic and the city starts to reopen, now like the 20s are kind of roaring again.

So they're just, they're clever, they're smart, and they're very innovative.

And it's a feel-good place to go, Barbie Pond.

PETERSON: Yes.

And if you want sort of regular updates on the Barbies, you can obviously find them on Instagram, where I first discovered them, I think through Friends of Petworth or the PoPville blog, which is a pretty well-known local Internet haunt.

HILL: Yeah.

But I think we might have some questions.

PETERSON: I have here this question from my friend Neil Gordon.

Are you planning to write another book?

Because I know the answer, JoAnn.

Go for it.

HILL: This is a great question.

I actually, very happily in the last two weeks, I signed two new book contracts with my publisher.

And so... PETERSON: I can't wait to read them.

HILL: The next book is a scavenger hunt.

It's a scavenger hunt throughout the city.

And it's going to take through 17 neighborhoods throughout DC, maybe Old Town as well, some other places outside the city.

And I'm currently writing that right now.

It's written very differently.

It's riddles and so forth.

It's super fun.

And then after that one, I will be writing a book about unique eats and eateries and restaurants and so forth throughout DC and stories about restaurant tours and just, so yes.

I am super excited for these upcoming projects, both DC-focused.

Thanks for the question.

PETERSON: It's going to be so good.

We also have another one about a character that you know we talked about in our prep meeting, but we didn't get to.

Answering live here from Robert.

What about the harmonica guy?

HILL: Ooh, is Hoff here?

Oh my goodness.

You know, Hoff is this amazing, amazing individual and just human being.

And he is this incredible, creative, eccentric man, I mean that in the best way, who owns the largest collection of harmonica cases in the world.

He owns over 500.

PETERSON: Mind blown.

Totally blown.

HILL: And they're incredible.

They are pieces of art.

And they are designed to hold his harmonicas.

He works very closely with different artists to design them, you know, very meticulously.

They're beautiful.

Some are focused on Vermont, where he spends a lot of time in the summer.

Some are family-focused.

And they have, some are focused on, you know, different travels that he's taken.

And so and his wife were so generous to invite me and my husband to his house in Virginia about a year ago or so.

And we were able to see his collection and just marvel at the collection.

He told us so many fun stories about them, and just, they're incredible.

None of them are for sale.

But they're an amazing collection to see, and I'm really fortunate that I got to meet Hoff.

And we talk still regularly.

And he's just a wonderful, wonderful individual.

PETERSON: Alright.

I also wanted to flag a question from Dee Locklear here.

Do we have favorite gargoyles at the National Cathedral?

I do.

HILL: Oh.

So I have a story about the cathedral in my book, but not about a gargoyle.

So if you want to take that one, Andrea, feel free.

PETERSON: Yeah.

So the National Cathedral is covered by different gargoyles.

And my favorite one, because I'm a nerd, is that there's a Darth Vader one up there.

So the very darkest of the Dark Side, assuming that you, like I have, mostly blocked out what happened in the latest trilogy.

Also, I like this one.

What's a good place in her book that you would recommend for a first date, JoAnn?

What's the most romantic spot that you covered?

I know that we've covered a lot of gory things, so let's find some place cheerful.

HILL: Okay.

So that's a great question.

I would say definitely somewhere outside.

Well, let's stick with outside.

So there is the Franciscan Monastery, which is in Brookland.

Now, the story in my book is about the underground catacombs, which are cool.

And they're underground passageways and tunnels.

And they were actually replicated from the catacombs in Rome that monks created.

But so that's the entry in my book.

However, the draw, though, if you ever go to this monastery, the grounds are immaculate, and they're pristine.

I was actually just there a couple of weeks ago, in all of its bloom.

They are sunny, and I don't know if a lot of people know about the monastery.

And people can go and walk around.

And it is beautiful.

It'd be nice for a first date.

You can walk the gardens.

There's an upper level and, you know, a lower level.

There are different chapels and so forth.

But it's just stunning.

The grounds are probably some of the most meticulously, pristine-gardened grounds, greenery, that I've seen in the city that I would say.

PETERSON: It's definitely beautiful.

HILL: Right?

PETERSON: Yeah.

HILL: I think that's what I would say.

Or, I mean... PETERSON: I have one other from your book, as well, I think.

And we didn't quite get to her, but the Joan of Arc statue in Malcolm X Park, who has a sword that is constantly being stolen.

And I want to make one weird shoutout to the DC musical scene.

There's a meme about Carly Rae Jepsen getting swords given to her by fans.

And there is a DC cover band that occasionally comes out called Gnarly Ray Jepsen that, if you ever have an opportunity to see, I recommend.

Also a good first-date opportunity, if you find them.

HILL: That's great.

Meridian Hill Park is a great open space that's nice.

You know, you can bring your picnic and so forth.

But yeah, the Joan of Arc statue, the story in my book is the number of times her sword was stolen.

Three different times.

And hopefully now secure, thanks to, you know, the National Park Service and so forth.

But it took quite a while.

But that's a great date place to.

I just think a lot of outdoor places, right?

So the Arboretum's another great date place, I think.

Rock Creek Park, right?

PETERSON: It's perfect.

I will again plug Mallows Bay and kayaking.

Nothing's more romantic than the water, assuming that you guys have separate kayaks so if things go bad, you can go your separate ways.

HILL: Absolutely, yeah.

So go outside and explore.

PETERSON: So and here's another one from Zakshee Helan.

You know, what things did you discover during the pandemic that surprised you?

I know there were plenty of places.

But like, is there something that just made you go, I couldn't believe that was there?

I know it's all Secret DC, but I'm sure you have a lot of ideas.

HILL: So how about like a crazy story?

PETERSON: Yeah, let's do it.

HILL: Okay.

So if you know the Big Chair in Anacostia?

PETERSON: Yes.

HILL: Okay.

PETERSON: Maybe not everyone will know the Big Chair, so maybe explain the Big Chair.

HILL: Okay.

So if you, not too far from the Anacostia Metro is this enormous wooden chair.

It's huge.

But it's actually the replica.

it's not the original chair.

So it's on Martin Luther King Avenue and B Street in Anacostia.

So I go to Anacostia for various reasons, and so I have known this chair, and I've seen this chair.

And again, it's humongous.

You cannot miss it.

But the crazy story that I found about it is that years ago, there was this furniture store.

So like in the late 1950s, this furniture store wanted to do a publicity stunt to get them attention and free advertising and so forth.

And so, why not?

Right?

So the original chair was almost 20 feet tall and about 4600 pounds, okay?

It was, at the time, the largest chair in the world, at the time.

It's no longer the largest chair.

But what's crazy that I found is that they decided to have, they built this glass cube up top.

And they hired a model to live there.

So this glass cube had three closings and an opening, where people would bring up food and other things.

And she lived there for 42 days, on top of this cube.

And this was the way to get attention and so forth.

She was paid $1500.

PETERSON: That's awesome.

HILL: She couldn't take it and left the cube.

But now, the chair that's there now is not the original chair.

It's a replica.

But again, it's a chair that I have walked by numerous times.

And to know this crazy, bizarre, really weird story, that this woman lived there for over a month.

PETERSON: That whole thing happened.

HILL: Pretty wacky.

So that was maybe one of the surprising things that I discovered.

More of a story, for sure.

PETERSON: Alright.

And we have like a few more here.

This one coming in from Cynthia Edwards.

You know, where do you start looking for places to write about?

Like what was your first research point?

HILL: Yeah, so my first research point was, so when I was a teacher, an individual, his name is Tim Crep.

Maybe people might know him.

He is, he lives in Capitol Hill.

He was a former parent of mine, at my school.

And he is a tour guide, a historian.

He's written some books, and he is just wonderful.

He's a wealth of knowledge.

As soon as I signed my contract, I contacted him and said, hey, can we meet for coffee?

Because I'm writing a book, and I would love some insight.

And so we met at a coffee shop in Capitol Hill.

I brought my computer.

And he literally just, he was the one who gave me the idea for The Throne of the Third Heaven.

He told me about some scandals, some controversies.

And I was just typing and typing and typing and taking copious notes.

And so I would say he kind of got me started.

He gave me probably about 25 to 30 ideas for the book.

And the majority of them made the book.

So from there, then of course, you research something.

You go and explore.

You talk to a tour guide.

I went on walking tours with DC By Foot, you know, Scary DC, all of the tours.

You talk to tour guides.

They give you stories.

They give you ideas.

And then they lead you to someone else.

So that's kind of how it evolved.

Like I said, I talked to park rangers.

I talked to everybody and anybody who was willing to talk and had information.

Like I said, I was very lucky in the people who I met.

That's kind of how it started.

PETERSON: You know, as a reporter I can say usually, talking to people is the best way to find things out.

It sounds like you did a great job of it.

I know you talked to me and well, almost everyone else you mentioned in the book.

And that's a lot of conversations.

HILL: A lot of conversations.

But I mean, just how they were so valuable, right?

I mean, they were invaluable, really, for this project to succeed.

So yeah.

But Tim Crep really kind of is who launched it all.

Knowledgeable tour guide.

He gave me a lot of information, yeah.

PETERSON: I'm going to have to ask, answer one from my friend, Julian, who would like to know if there are any other occult... Masonic-Lovecraftian beliefs that are featured in 19th-century architecture.

This is largely an in-joke because we play a lot of Lovecraftian board games together.

But I bet you can come up with some weird things.

HILL: Well, I don't know... PETERSON: What's the strangest architecture?

HILL: Okay, I don't know if it falls under all that category, and so excuse me if it doesn't.

But I am thinking about, I have a story about the Pentagon being like why...

There are theories about the Pentagon being connected with the Illuminati and actually being like the secret headquarters of the Illuminati.

Not really the occult per se, and I understand that.

You know, it's kind of that hidden society.

But so like I don't know if that really answers that question.

But it was fun to research and fun to kind of read about all these like different theories and, you know, conspiracies and so forth.

And yeah.

I don't know if that was the best... PETERSON: Yeah.

HILL: Answer to end off on.

PETERSON: Way to throw us off-topic at the end here, Julian.

GRAHAM: Well, many thanks for moderating, Andrea.

And JoAnn, you've shown that even in a city as extensively visited and written about as Washington, there's still more to discover.

And now, you've given us a guide filled with other fascinating places not to miss.

To everyone watching, thanks for tuning in.

From all of us here at Politics and Prose, stay well and well-read.

ANNOUNCER: Books by tonight's authors are available at Politics and Prose bookstore locations or online at politics-prose.com.

♪ ♪