COMING UP NEXT ON ARIZONA HORIZON...

QUESTIONS INVOLVING A WEBSITE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO REVEAL FUNDING SOURCES BEHIND DARK MONEY, POLITICAL DONATIONS... ALSO TONIGHT, LAW STUDENTS WIN SIGNFICANT RECORDS CASE AGAINST THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMI SECURITY.

AND NEW RESEARCH SHOWS THAT CLIMATE-CHANGE IS CAUSING PLANT AND ANIMAL EXTINCTIONS AT AN INCREASING RATE.

THOSE STORIES AND MORE, NEXT, O ARIZONA HORIZON.

GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO ARIZONA HORIZON.

I'M TED SIMONS.

NOGALES RANCHER GEORGE KELLY WILL NOT BE RE-TRIED FOR 2ND- DEGREE MURDER IN THE SHOOTING DEATH LAST YEAR OF A MIGRANT CROSSING KELLY'S PROPERTY.

A JURY FAILED TO REACH A VERDIC IN THE CASE EARLIER THIS YEAR RESULTING IN A MIS-TRIAL.

PROSECUTORS HAD REQUESTED THAT THE CASE BE LEFT OPEN SHOULD NE EVIDENCE OR TESTIMONY COME TO LIGHT, BUT A SANTA CRUZ COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE RULED THAT THERE WAS, QUOTE, "NO REASONABL PROBABILITY" THAT SUCH EVIDENCE WOULD BE DISCOVERED.

THE JUDGE DISMISSED THE CASE WITH PREJUDICE, WHICH KEEPS PROSECUTORS FROM REFILING THE CHARGES.

TWO CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL GROUPS ARE FILING SUIT OVER THE STATE'S ELECTION MANUAL.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC, WHICH REPORTS THAT TH TWO NON-PROFITS CLAIM THAT THE GUIDEBOOK STIFLES FREE SPEECH B PROHIBITING THREATENING OR HARRASING BEHAVIOR AIMED AT VOTERS, A PROVISION THEY CLAIM IS OVERLY BROAD.

THE GROUPS ARE ALSO TARGETING A PROVISION THAT A COUNTY'S VOTES WILL NOT BE COUNTED IF THAT COUNTY'S SUPERVISORS REFUSE TO CERTIFY ELECTION RESULTS BY THE STATE'S CANVASSING DEADLINE.

THE SUIT CALLS FOR AN INJUNCTIO AND RE-WORKING OF THOSE TWO PROVISIONS.

NEW YORK CONGRESSWOMAN ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ TODAY INTRODUCED ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT AGAINST SUPREME COURT JUSTICES CLARENCE THOMAS AND SAMUEL ALITO.

THE IMPEACHMENT ARTICLES CITE FAILURES BY BOTH JUSTICES TO REPORT MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN GIFTS WHILE ON THE HIGH COURT.

THE CONGRESSWOMAN'S IMPEACHMENT EFFORTS ARE SYMBOLIC, AT BEST, DUE TO A REPUBLICAN-LED MAJORITY IN THE HOUSE AND LITTLE CHANCE OF CONVICTION IN THE SENATE.

AND, ACTOR GEORGE CLOONEY TODAY BECAME THE LATEST PROMINENT DEMOCRAT TO CALL FOR PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN TO STEP ASIDE FROM HI RE-ELECTION BID.

CLOONEY, A MAJOR DEMOCRATIC DONOR, MADE THE CALL IN AN OP-E FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, IN WHIC HE WROTE THAT HE ADMIRED BIDEN BUT THAT BIDEN TODAY IS NOT THE SAME JOE BIDEN OF 2010 OR EVEN 2020.

CLOONEY WROTE THAT BIDEN CANNOT WIN THE FIGHT AGAINST TIME AND CALLED FOR KEY DEMOCRATIC LEADERS TO ASK BIDEN TO, QUOTE "VOLUNTARILY STEP ASIDE."

INFORMATION IS NOW OPEN TO THE PUBLIC ABOUT WHO IS DONATING BIG-MONEY TO POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS.

BUT THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT'S ACTUALLY BEING FOUND ON THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S "SEE THE MONEY" WEBSITE.

MARY JO PITZL OF THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC REPORTED ON THIS STORY SHE JOINS US NOW... GOOD HAVE YOU HERE.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

BEFORE WE GET STARTED, THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S "SEE THE MONEY" WEBSITE.

WHAT IS THAT?

>> THAT IS A WEBSITE WHERE CAMPAIGN FINANCE INFORMATION IS POSTED.

YOU CAN GO THERE, AND YOU CAN LOOK UP THE LAWMAKER OR THE CANDIDATE WHO'S RUNNING FOR LEGISLATURE AND FIND OUT -- LOOK AT THEIR REPORTS, FIND OUT WHO THEY'RE GETTING MONEY FROM.

YOU CAN DO THAT FOR POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEES, AND NOW BECAUSE OF VOTER APPROVAL OF PROPOSITION 211 TWO YEARS AGO, YOU CAN NOW FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING FROM SOME OF THESE INDEPENDENT EXPENDITURE COMMITTEES.

>> AND ARE THERE CERTAIN LEVELS, ONCE YOU'RE ABOVE A CERTAIN LEVEL, YOU HAVE TO REPORT THIS, CORRECT?

>> CORRECT.

YEAH.

IT GETS A LITTLE TECHNICAL, BUT IF AN INDIVIDUAL DONOR GIVES $5,000 OR MORE TO AN INDEPENDENT EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE THAT'S ALREADY SPENT $50,000, THEN YOU MUST NAME THE PRINCIPLE DONORS THAT ARE OVER $5,000.

THE IDEA TO LET THE PUBLIC KNOW WHO'S FUNDING THESE CAMPAIGNS, WHICH UP UNTIL NOW, HAVE BEEN SECRET.

CANDIDATES HAVE TO DISCLOSE WHO'S GIVING THEM MONEY, PACTS HAVE TO DO THAT.

BUT IF YOU SEE AN AD PAID FOR BY ARIZONANS FOR TOOTHPASTE, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO'S -- WHO IS THE MAJOR MONEY BEHIND THAT, THE LAW CHANGES THAT.

>> OKAY.

SHINING A LIGHT ON THESE DARK MONEY GROUPS, IF YOU WILL, WHO -- BEFORE WE GET TO WHAT IS SEEN AND WHAT IS NOT SEEN RIGHT NOW ON THE WEBSITE, WHO ENFORCES ALL THIS STUFF THAT YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT?

>> THE WEBSITE IS AT THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE, AND THE ENFORCEMENT IS DONE BY THE CITIZENS CLEAN ELECTIONS COMMITTEE.

THEY'VE HAD THEIR OWN ISSUES BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE THE REPORTS TO SEE THE MONEY TO KNOW IF THERE'S ANYTHING THAT NEEDS TO BE EXAMINED.

>> OKAY.

WHY ARE THE REPORT SO HARD TO FIND?

WHAT'S GOING ON HERE?

>> WELL, SECRETARY OF STATE ADRIAN FONTES CHALKS IT UP TO TURNOVER IN HIS IT STAFF TO LACK OF FUNDING.

EVERY SECRETARY OF STATE COMPLAIN BESIDE LACK OF FUNDING, WITH SOME MERIT, AND ALSO JUST DEALING WITH OLD TECHNOLOGY.

HE CALLS IT LEGACY TECHNOLOGY.

THEY JUST CAN'T SEEM TO MAKE IT WORK.

WE FOUND OUT AFTER ASKING, WELL, WHERE ARE THESE REPORTS, BECAUSE WE KNOW THE MONEY'S -- WE KNOW THESE THINGS ARE HAPPENING, WE KNOW THESE CAMPAIGN MESSAGES ARE OUT THERE.

WE KNOW -- YOU KNOW, WHY ARE WE NOT SEEING THEM?

WE HAVE THE REPORTS, BUT WE CAN'T SEE THEM ON THE WEBSITES.

THEY HAVE FIX THAT SAID WITHIN A COUPLE OF DAYS OF GETTING A LITTLE ATTENTION DRAWN TO THAT.

>> YEAH.

ATTENTION FROM YOUR STORY.

SO 1 PERCENTAGE, DO YOU THINK -- DO YOU FAUX WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE FOLKS THAT SHOULD BE ON THAT WEBSITE ARE ON THAT WEBSITE?

>> THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

AND I JUST INQUIRED THIS AFTERNOON BECAUSE I'VE HEARD THAT THERE'S ANOTHER CAMPAIGN THAT'S RUNNING AROUND DOWN IN SOUTHERN ARIZONA.

THEY CLEARLY SPENT MORE THAN $50,000.

WE'VE SEEN NOTHING FROM THEM.

SO IS THAT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T BOTHER TO FILE THE REPORT?

WHICH WOULD BE SOMETHING THE CLAIM ELECTIONS COMMISSIONER MIGHT WANT TO LOOK AT, LIKE YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE REPORTING, OR IS THE REPORT IN, BUT JUST UNABLE TO GET IT TO APPEAR ON ITS WEBSITE.

THEY DO HAVE REPORTS FROM EIGHT DIFFERENT COMMITTEES THAT ARE ONLINE NOW.

>> IF THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE HAS THE INFORMATION BUT THEY CAN'T TRANSFER IT OVER, IF I WANT TO KNOW, THIS GROUP BEHIND THE TOOTHPASTE THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED, I WANT TO KNOW THIS.

IT'S NOT ON THE WEBSITE, WILL THEY BE ABLE TO TELL YOU WITHOUT IT BEING ON THE WEBSITE?

>> WELL, YOU MIGHT HAVE TO DO A PUBLIC RECORDS REQUEST.

THOSE THINGS TAKE TIME, AND THE VALUE OF DOING THIS FOR THE REPORTS THAT DID SHOW UP BY LATE LAST WEEK, IT PROVES THE POINT ABOUT WHY PROPOSITION 211 WAS PASSED.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS A GROUP CALLED ARIZONA TAXPAYERS FOR A SECURE BORDER.

IT APPEARS THAT THEY'RE GONNA BE THE PEOPLE IN ARE GOING TO PROMOTE BALLOT REFERRAL THAT LAWMAKERS MADE IN WOULD MAKE CROSSING THE BOARDER A CRIME THAT AIR ARIZONA CAN PROSECUTE.

SO YOU LOOK AT THE REPORT AND CAN SEE THE DONORS, SOME OF THE BIGGER DONORS ARE FROM COLORADO AND FROM ARKANSAS.

SO IT SORT OF -- YOU KNOW, AND THEN YOU SEE THE ARIZONA TAXPAYERS FOR A SECURE BORDER.

AT LEAST IT HELPS YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE THE MONEY IS COMING FROM AND THEN YOU CAN DO SOME RESEARCH AND FIGURE OUT WHY SOME MILLIONAIRE/BILLIONAIRE NEW COLORADO WOULD BE INTERESTED IN DOING THIS OR WHY SOME GUY DOWN IN ARKANSAS.

>> YEAH.

AND I WOULD IMAGINE THE MORE YOU LOOK INTO THESE THINGS, THE MORE YOU'RE GOING TO FIND THESE BIG MONEY DONORS FROM OUT OF STATE, THEY'RE OFTEN INVOLVED IN THIS KIND OF THING; ARE THEY NOT?

>> WELL, WE BELIEVE THEY HAVE BEEN.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW.

>> AND THERE'S ALSO A BELIEF THAT BECAUSE OF PROPOSITION 211 A LOT OF THESE GROUPS, MAYBE THEY JUST WON'T PLAY.

THEY DON'T WANT THEIR NAMES OUT THERE.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE LAWSUITS TRYING TO BLOCK THIS THING, THAT THIS VIOLATES, YOU KNOW, MY FREE SPEECH RIGHTS AS A DONOR.

SO SOME -- I THINK WE MIGHT SEE FEWER OF THESE THINGS HAPPENING BECAUSE PEOPLE JUST AREN'T GOING TO PUT MONEY INTO THOSE CAMPAIGNS.

>> OR COULD WE SEE A MORE MUDDLING OF THE PIPELINE?

>> WELL, THE PIPELINE IS SORT OF MUDDLED RIGHT NOW.

>> EVEN MORE SO.

>> HOW SO?

>> WELL, JUST, I MEAN, YOU'RE TRYING TO FIND OUT WHO'S HERE, AND YOU GOTTA GO BACK HERE AND THEN YOU GOTTA GO BACK -- CAN YOU GO BACK FAR ENOUGH, CAN PEOPLE MADE TO THEY GO BACK FAR ENOUGH STILL?

>> NO.

BUT IF THE -- IN ONE OF THESE COMMITTEES IT GOES BACK TO TRADE UNIONS, AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHO THOSE DONORS ARE.

I MEAN, THE UNIONS ARE SUPPORTED BY THE UNION DUES, WHETHER THERE IS SOMEBODY IN THERE WHO PAID $10,000 IN ADDITION TO THE DUES, THAT IS NOT REQUIRED UNDER THE LAW.

>> YEAH.

SO LAST QUESTION, WHAT DO WE TAKE FROM ALL THIS?

YOU FOUND OUT ASK FROM WHAT YOU'RE HEARING FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE, SOUNDS LIKE THEY'RE TRYING TO GET THEIR ACT IN ORDER.

WHAT DO WE TAKE FROM THIS?

>> WELL, THEY NEED TO GET THE TECHNOLOGY FIXED, AND, YOU KNOW, THE MONEY ARGUMENT, THE CLEAN ELECTIONS COMMISSION IS SAYING WE GAVE YOU $72,000 TO STAND UP THIS PART OF THE WEBSITE.

IF YOU NEED MORE MONEY, COME ASK.

YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE IT.

THEY COULD GIVE THAT TO THEM.

THINGS DON'T ALWAYS HAPPEN QUICKLY, AND I JUST HEARD THIS AFTERNOON FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE THAT THEY ARE WORKING ON BASICALLY A NEW AND IMPROVED VERSION OF THIS WEBSITE, BUT IT PROBABLY WON'T BE AVAILABLE UNTIL AUGUST, WHICH IS AFTER THE PRIMARY, BUT IT WOULD CATCH A LOT -- IF IT HAPPENS, IT WOULD CAPTURE A LOT OF THE ACTIVITY BEFORE THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.

>> CERTAINLY THE BALLOT MEASURES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

MARY-JO PITZL, ARIZONA REPUBLIC, GREAT JOB.

THANKS FOR SHARING.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> SURE.

>>> COMING UP... ♪ ♪ THE.

>>> A RECENT STATE SUPREME COURT DECISION RULED A JOURNALIST CAN QUALIFY AS RESEARCHERS AND THUS BE ELIGIBLE TO OBTAIN PROTECTIVE SERVICES RECORDS FRO THE ARIZONA DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC SECURITY.

JOINING US NOW IS GREGG LESLIE OF THE 1ST AMENDMENT CLINIC, WHICH REPRESENTED OUR OTHER GUEST JOURNALIST AMY SILVERMAN, WHO IS INVESTIGATING THE AGENCY'S RESPONSES TO ABUSE ALLEGATIONS.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU BOTH HERE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

I WANT TO START WITH YOU, THE FIRST AMENDMENT CLINIC, WHAT IS THAT?

>> IT'S A CLINIC THAT ALLOWS THE MOVEMENT IN LAW SCHOOLS TO MAKE LAW SCHOOL MORE PRACTICAL.

TO TEACH STUDENTS HOW TO ACTUALLY LITIGATE CASES, AND SO CLINIC WILL TAKE ON A SPECIFIC TOPIC, AND OURS IS THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

>> YES.

>> SO WE TEACH, I TEACH KIDS IN LAW SCHOOL HOW TO ACTUALLY LITIGATE THESE CASES AND TWO OF THEM GOT TO ARGUE BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT.

SO -- >> THEY DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF IT THERE.

AND THIS IS YOUR CASE.

WHAT EXACTLY WERE YOU RESEARCHING AND WHAT KIND OF WALLS WERE YOU HITTING, AMY?

>> SO IN 2020 I DID A YEAR-LONG PROJECT WITH PRO PUBLIC AND ARIZONA DAILY STAR DESIGNED TO INVESTIGATE SERVICES FOR PEOPLE WITH INTELLECTUAL AND DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITIES AND WHAT THEIR LIVES ARE LIKE IN THE COMMUNITY BECAUSE WE'VE CHANGED THE LAWS A LOT OVER THE YEARS AND GONE FROM INSTITUTIONS TO THE COMMUNITY AND SMALLER GROUP HOME SETTINGS, WHICH IS GREAT, UNTIL YOU START TO DRILL DOWN AND SEE THAT PEOPLE'S LIVES AREN'T NECESSARILY MUCH BETTER.

AND A LOT OF THE RECORDS THAT ARE KEPT, A LOT OF THE INFORMATION IS VERY HARD TO GET TO.

IT'S VERY HARD TO SOURCE THIS, AS YOU MIGHT IMAGINE.

PEOPLE LIVE IN EYES LAYING, WHICH IS HARD.

AND SO GREGG WORKED WITH ME ON A COUPLE DIFFERENT PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS, INCLUDING THIS ONE, WHICH WAS FOR ADULT PROTECTIVE SERVICES INVESTIGATORS BACKGROUND MATERIALS, BECAUSE THEIR SUBSTANTIATION RATE IS SO INCREDIBLY LOW WHEN YOU FILE A COMPLAINT APS, YOU MAYBE DON'T HEAR BACK AT ALL, AND ULTIMATELY, IT'S MAYBE 3% OUT OF THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS, AND THAT BEING SUBSTANTIATED.

SO WE REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON TO THE MOST VULNERABLE PEOPLE.

>> AND SO TO GET THOSE RECORDS, DES BASICALLY SAID NO, WE CAN'T DO THIS.

THERE'S CONFIDENTIALITY ISSUE HERE.

WHAT WAS DES SAYING AND HOW FAR WERE THEY WILLING TO GO ON THIS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S A CLASSIC PROBLEM WITH PUBLIC RECORDS LAWS.

THERE'S A COMMITMENT TO OPENNESS, BUT THERE'S ALSO A GUARANTEE OF PRIVACY.

AND OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE LEGITIMATE PRIVACY INTERESTS WHEN THIS KIND OF INFORMATION IS AT STAKE.

SO THERE'S A STATE LAW HERE SAYING THIS SHALL BE CONFIDENTIAL.

SO IT'S AN EXEMPTION FROM THE PUBLIC RECORDS LAW, AND THEN THAT MAKES EXCEPTIONS TO ITS OWN SECRECY PLEDGE AND SO UNLESS YOU'RE DOING BONA FIDE RESEARCH.

AND SO THE AGENCY, JOURNALISTS IS DOING BONA FIDE RESEARCH.

THEY SAID, NO, THAT'S ONLY RESEARCH THAT HELPS US RUN THE AGENCY.

AND SO THEY GAVE US NOTHING.

THEY WERE NOT WILLING TO GIVE ANYTHING.

AND SO THAT'S WHAT THE FIGHT WAS THAT WE TOOK TO THE SUPREME COURT, AS A JOURNALIST, DOING BONA FIDE IN RESEARCH.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, MOST JOURNALISTS WHO DO INVESTIGATIVE WORK, ESPECIALLY, THAT IS -- THAT IS RESEARCH.

>> I DID HAVE TO ASK WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING THE LAST 30 PLUS YEARS.

>> HOW DID YOU RESPOND WHEN YOU GOT THAT KIND OF RESPONSE FROM DES?

>> WE WEREN'T ALL THAT SURPRISED BECAUSE THIS CERTAINLY ISN'T THE FIRST TIME THAT THAT'S BEEN USED AS AN EXPLANATION.

BUT I ALWAYS IN MY INITIAL REQUESTS SAY, YOU KNOW, I EXPECT THAT THE MATERIAL WILL BE REDACTED, IF IT'S GOING TO BE ONEROUS TO DO THE REDACTIONS, I'M HAPPY TO TALK ABOUT JUST DOING THE SAMPLE SIZE, TWEAK MY REQUEST TO MAKE IT WORK FOR BOTH SIDES.

AND THAT WENT IGNORED .

>>> YEAH.

SO HERE COMES THE CASE, HERE COMES THE FIRST AMENDMENT CLINIC.

WHAT WAS THE ARGUMENT, HOW WAS IT PRESENTED?

>> WELL, WE SAID, LOOK, THERE'S A STATUTE THAT SAYS, YES, IS THERE ARE PRIVACY INTERESTS THAT HAVE TO BE PROTECTED, BUT BONA FIDE RESEARCH IS EXEMPT FROM THAT, AND THAT HAS TO MEAN SOMETHING, AND BECAUSE IT INCORPORATES, RIGHT, WITHIN THAT DEFINITION THAT THERE WILL BE REDACTIONS FOR PRIVACY REASONS, IT SHOULD MEAN THAT ANYTHING DONE IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST IS WORTH -- QUALIFIES AS BONA FIDE RESEARCH.

SO, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE TRYING MAKE IT EXEMPT SO THAT LAWYERS WHO ARE LITIGATING CASES DON'T GO THERE AS A FIRST WAY OF GETTING INFORMATION AND THAT PEOPLE DON'T JUST -- FOR COMMERCIAL REASONS, GATHER ALL THIS INFORMATION, BUT IF YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST, I WOULD ARGUE -- I DID ARGUE YOU CAN FIT NICELY WITHIN THAT EXEMPTION.

>> AND AGAIN, DOING INVESTIGATION AS A JOURNALIST, YOU'RE NOT DOING IT FOR GIGGLES HERE.

YOU'RE DOING IT FOR THE PUBLIC INTEREST EVERY TIME, AREN'T YOU?

>> I MEAN, THAT'S -- WE WANT TO REVEAL THE TRUTH.

>> RIGHT.

SO THIS PARTICULAR DECISION, HOW DOES IT -- NOT JUST ON THIS CASE, BUT IMPACT YOU AS A JOURNALIST OVERALL, IN FACT, ALL JOURNALISTS DOING RESEARCH WORK?

>> IT IS NARROWER THAN I HAD ORIGINALLY THOUGHT.

SO I'M GONNA LET GREGG EXPLAIN THAT.

BECAUSE IT JUST APPLIES TO DES, CORRECT?

BUT CAN IT HAVE BROADER IMPLICATIONS?

>> IF THERE WERE A SIMILAR STATUTE, I THINK THE WORDING OF THE SUPREME COURT COULD BE USED IN OTHER SITUATIONS, BUT IN THIS CASE, VERY SPECIFICALLY, THIS ONE STATUTE IS ABOUT DES RECORDS.

>> OKAY.

SO NARROW HERE BUT A POSSIBILITY FOR A LITTLE MORE BROADER RULE.

>> BECAUSE THE SUPREME COURT DID SOMETHING ELSE INTERESTING.

THEY SAID, IF YOU DO THAT, IF YOU SAY THAT IT CAN ONLY BE FOR THE REQUEST THAT ACTUALLY HELPS THE AGENCY AND ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THAT, THEN YOU'VE GOT THE FIRST AMENDMENT CONCERNS TO WORRY ABOUT.

SO THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE DREAM OF PUBLIC RECORDS LITIGATORS, IS TO SAY THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT A STATUTE THAT GIVES ACCESS, IT'S ABOUT A FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT, YOU KNOW.

AND SO THEY OPENED UP THAT DOOR, AND I THINK IN A VERY GOOD WAY.

PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE WILL SAY, NO, THERE'S A FIRST AMENDMENT INTEREST AT STAKE.

>> AND NOW THIS GOES BACK TO TRIAL COURT, TRUE?

>> RIGHT, YES.

>> AND THE PROCESS THERE IS?

>> WE JUST GOTTA ARGUE ABOUT HOW THEY CAN IMPLEMENT THIS AND DISCUSS HOW ADVERTISE WILL BE AND WHAT RANGE OF RECORDS THEY CAN WORK ON.

>> AND WHILE ALL THIS IS GOING ON, YOUR INVESTIGATION GOES WHERE?

>> WELL, I'VE CONTINUED THIS WORK, BECAUSE THAT'S MY BEAT.

AND ACTUALLY I WAS ABLE TO DO A PROJECT FOR KJJZ WHERE I WORK NOW USING SOME OTHER RECORDS THAT GREGG HELPED ME GET.

SO THIS WON'T GO, YOU KNOW, UNREPORTED ONCE WE GET THE INFORMATION, BUT WE ARE ALREADY FOUR YEARS, AND SO THEN HAVE YOU CONCERNS ABOUT HOW OLD THE INFORMATION IS, WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS, AND HOW MUCH LONGER IS IT GOING TO GO ON?

SO WHILE -- I MEAN, I'M SO INCREDIBLY GRATEFUL TO GREG AND THE FIRST AMENDMENT CLINIC, IT WAS A GOOD LESSON FOR ME IN THE CHALLENGES OF LITIGATING SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

>> YEAH.

AND THE POSSIBILITY OF FLOOD GATES OPENING ONCE THIS IS ALL SAID AND DONE, TRUE?

>> YOU MEAN A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT'S COME THROUGH?

>> YES.

>> WELL, THAT'S A DREAM.

KIND OF A SICK DREAM, BUT IT'S A DREAM.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN IT WOULD BE QUITE A BIT OF INFORMATION.

I'M NOT EXPECTING -- I THINK WE WOULD NEGOTIATE A MORE MANAGEABLE AMOUNT FOR THE AGENCY.

I DON'T WANT TO KEEP THEM FROM BEING ABLE TO DO THEIR JOBS.

>> YES.

MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

>> OH, YEAH.

YEAH.

NEGOTIATION IS GOING TO BE IMPORTANT, BUT WE WON THE BIG PRINCIPLE.

SO WE HAVE OUR TRIES TO GO TO COURT AND DEMAND SOME ACCESS NOW.

>> OKAY.

AND THE BIG PRINCIPLE, AGAIN, NARROW HERE BUT THE POSSIBILITY OF EXPANDING AT A FUTURE DATE?

>> RIGHT.

SO THAT ANYTIME YOU SAY CERTAIN RECORDS MUST BE SEALED, AS LONG AS YOU ARE -- MUST BE KEPT CONFIDENTIAL -- AS LONG AS YOU ACCOMMODATE THE FACT THAT THERE ARE WAYS TO PROTECT PRIVACY INTERESTS, THERE SHOULD BE GREATER PUBLIC ACCESS.

THAT'S REALLY WHAT THIS CASE IS ABOUT.

>> WELL, GREAT JOB REPORTING.

GREAT JOB LITIGATING.

AND CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU BOTH THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR STORY.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

CLIMATE CHANGE IS LEADING TO THE LOSS OF ANIMALS.

THOSE EXTINCTIONS INCLUDE THE YARROW'S SPINY LIZARD, WHICH FO MILLIONS OF YEARS, AND UNTIL RECENTLY, WAS FOUND IN THE MULE MOUNTAINS OF SOUTHERN ARIZONA.

TO TALK MORE ABOUT THIS, WE WELCOME JOHN WIENS, A EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGIST AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

YOU STUDIED THIS ONE LIZARD THAT HAS BEEN THERE FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS.

>> ABOUT 5 MILLION YEARS OR SO.

ALL OF THESE AREAS DOWN INTO MEXICO.

>> SO BASICALLY, IN THE MULE MOUNTAINS, THEY'RE BEAUTIFUL, BUT NOT SO BEAUTIFUL WITH THE LIZARD.

>> SO ENVELOPE 2014, THEY WERE DOWN ABOUT 5, 700 FEET IN THE MULE MOUNTAINS.

WE CAME BACK IN 2022, 2023, THEY WERE JUST SURVIVING A LITTLE BIT NEAR THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN, UP ABOVE 7,000 FEET.

AND THE REAL PROBLEM THERE, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A TALL MOUNTAIN RANGE.

THEY'VE ONLY GOT ABOUT 300 FEET OF ELEVATION LEFT, AND AFTER, THAT THEY'RE GONE.

SO IF THE SAME RATES THAN WE'VE SEEN BEFORE, THEY'RE PROBABLY GONE THE NEXT YEAR OR TWO.

>> I WAS GONNA SAY, DID YOU NOT GO BACK AND TRY TO LOOK FOR THEM AND YOU COULDN'T FIND ANYTHING?

>> WELL, I ACTUALLY GOT SLIGHTLY BETTER NEWS ON THAT BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL THERE.

WE WENT A LITTLE TOO EARLY IN THE YEAR BACK IN MARCH.

AND SO IT'S NOT QUITE AS BAD AS IT LOOKED ON PBS.

SO WE HAVE EXTINCTION BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU GOTTA KEEP GOING HIGHER TO NOT GET SO WARM.

WHAT HAPPENS TO EVOLUTION, WHICH SAYS, OKAY, IT'S GETTING WARMER, YOU NEED TO ADAPT.

THEY JUST CAN'T ADAPT?

>> THAT'S A GREAT POINT.

SO THERE'S 18 AREAS WHERE THE LIZARDS ARE.

SOME ARE GOING EXTINCT AND SOME AREN'T.

IT'S THE ONE MOST GENETICALLY VARIABLE THAT ARE ABLE TO SURVIVE.

A COUPLE THE HOTTEST POPULATIONS ARE SURVIVING AND THOSE ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE A LOT OF GENETIC VARIATIONS.

>> BUT THE YELLOWS NOT SO MUCH.

>> THE ONE THAT'S IN THE MULES, NOT SO MUCH.

YEAH.

>> SO BASICALLY, UNLESS AND UNTIL THAT LEVEL DROPS BACK DOWN OR AT LEAST HOLDS STEADY, THIS IS NOT A GOOD STORY.

>> NO, IT'S NOT.

>> AND THIS IS NOT AN UNUSUAL STORY, IS IT.

>> NO.

IN FACT, NEAR DEMMING, THAT'S JUST ABOVE 7,000 FEET, YOU KNOW.

IT'LL PROBABLY BE NEXT.

>> HOW OFTEN IS THIS HAPPENING WITH OTHER SPECIES?

>> SO I JUST SURVEYED BACK IN 2016 WITH 976 SPECIES, AND THERE WAS THESE CLIMATE-RELATED LOCAL EXTINCTIONS IN 47% OF THEM.

>> OH MY GOODNESS.

>> YEAH.

>> SO THERE COULD BE MILLIONS OF CREATURES FACING EXTINCTION IN THE NEXT DECADE OR SO.

>> YEAH.

ESTIMATED WHEN IT CAME OUT LAST YEAR, MAYBE 3 TO 6 MILLION SPECIES WILL BE LOST IN THE NEXT 50 YEARS OR SO, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 15 AND 30% OF ALL SPECIES MIGHT BE LOST, EVEN UNDER AN INTERMEDIATE CLIMATE CHANGE SCENARIO.

>> AND THERE'S NO QUESTION, THIS IS WARMING.

YOU CAN'T DENY WHAT'S GOING ON HERE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

IN THE CASE OF THESE LIZARDS, WE CAN SHOW IT'S THE POPULATIONS THAT HAVE EXPERIENCED THE MOST WARMING OF THE ONES THAT ARE DISAPPEARING AND COMBINED WITH A GENETIC VARIATION.

>> WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THE ENDANGERED SPECIES ACT?

IS THAT NOT WORKING ANYMORE, IS IT TOOTHLESS, WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE?

>> THIS HAS HAPPENED REALLY QUICKLY, AND IT'S NOT -- THIS IS JUST IN SEVEN YEARS THAT THIS POPULATION AT MULES IS ALMOST GONE.

AND I'VE BEEN IN TOUCH WITH FOLKS IN THE SENATE FROM BIOLOGICAL UNIVERSITY AND THEY'RE GOING TO TRY TO FAST TRACK GETTING THIS MULE POPULATION LISTED BUT IN THE INTERIM, WHAT CAN YOU DO, RIGHT?

>> EXACTLY.

AND WHAT CAN BE DONE?

OBVIOUSLY, WE KNOW THE HUMAN IMPACT, AT LEAST MOST PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND THE HUMAN IMPACT OF THE WARMING TEMPERATURE.

BUT, I MEAN, FOR THESE LITTLE GUYS, THESE LIZARDS, I MEAN, IT'S -- THEY GOT NOWHERE TO GO.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

AND THERE'S LOTS OF PLACES IN THE WORLD LIKE THIS.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN AUSTRALIA, THESE BEAUTIFUL RAINFORESTS IN AUSTRALIA, NONE OF THE MOUNTAINS THERE ARE THAT HIGH.

THE SAME SORT OF SITUATION.

THE WESTERN GOTH IN INDIA, INCREDIBLE BIODIVERSITY, BUT NOT TALL MOUNTAINS THERE EITHER.

>> AND MAYBE BRANCH OFF, WHO KNOWS, IN ANOTHER MILLION YEARS TO SOMETHING ELSE, CORRECT?

>> YEAH.

BUT THEY'VE GOTTA GET THROUGH THE NEXT 50 OR 100.

>> AND THAT'S ANOTHER QUESTION I WANTED TO ASK YOU.

WE'VE HEARD OF EXTINCTIONS.

WE CALL GET THAT.

BUT IT'S HAPPENING AT A VERY UNUSUALLY FAST RATE.

>> YES.

YES.

>> IF WE LOSE, YOU KNOW, 20% OF SPECIES IN THE NEXT 50 YEARS, THAT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, UNPRECEDENTED.

>> WHAT GOT YOU ON THIS RESEARCH?

>> I JUST LIKE THESE LIZARDS, AND SO I STARTED DOING SURVEYS IN 2013 AND 2014, AND YEAH, THEN I KIND OF WENT BACK.

I NEVER EXPECTED THAT WE'D SEE SUCH BIG CHANGES IN JUST SEVEN YEARS.

>> YEAH.

WELL, THEY'RE A GOOD-LOOKING LIZARD.

>> THEY ARE.

NICE AND FIRM.

THAT ONE IS FROM THE CHERACABA POPULATION, AND YOU CAN GET UP REALLY CLOSE TO THEM AND THEY'RE REALLY COOL.

>> YOU CAN MESS WITH THEM A LITTLE BIT AND THEY DON'T MIND, HUH?

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT'S NEXT FOR YOUR RESEARCH?

>> I HAVE A GREAT STUDY OF LOOKING AT PATTERNS ACROSS THE WORLD, INCLUDING 5,000 SPECIES.

AND WE'RE ALSO LOOKING AT THE LOCAL ONES IN MORE DETAIL AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENING, WHAT'S ACTUALLY CAUSING, YOU KNOW, WHERE -- WHAT'S THE ACTUAL MECHANISM THAT'S CAUSING HOME TO GO EXTINCT BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> AND WORKING IN CONJUNCTION IN OTHER AREAS WITH OTHER FOLKS, CORRECT?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

>> GOOD LUCK TO THE LIZARDS.

THAT'S JUST A GOOD-LOOKING FELLA THERE.

COME ON, YOU'RE ROOTING FOR THEM, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU THINK THEY HAVE NOWHERE TO GO.

BUT WE WISH THE BEST FOR THEM, CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR RESEARCH, THANK YOU FOR COMING OUT AND TALKING TO US ABOUT IT.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

I'M TED SIMONS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.