LAURE: Gary Walker, thanks so much for joining  me today to talk about weather modification.

GARY: You're very welcome.

LAURA: So, you're the co-owner   of S.O.A.R., which stands for Seeding  Operations and Atmospheric Research.

For those of us not familiar with the technology,  can you kind of give us the big picture overview   of what this sort of weather modification is?

GARY: Weather modification goes on   in more than 40 countries in our world.

Water is  an issue for all of us and the United Nations even   predicts that by 2050 that most countries  in our world will have water shortages.

Weather modification is a tool that's been in  existence for well over 50 years.

I spent 30 years   as the manager of a water conservation,  two water conservation districts in Texas   and the depletion of the Ogallala Aquifer was  one of the main drivers behind my involvement   with weather modification.

And so, in the  agricultural areas of the panhandle of Texas,   the South Plains of Texas, the eastern  New Mexico portions there in your state,   the groundwater depletions and declines are,  have been a very big concern for producers.

Cities as well, for many, many years.

LAURA: So, you're working with meteorologists and   watching forecasts.

And, you get those seedable  clouds and what happens next?

What's the process?

GARY: In the summertime, we're looking  for those cumulus type clouds that   have liquid water in them.

And, the airplane  will go into the, go into the air and go toward   the cloud identified by that meteorologist, that  will have suitable liquid water in it.

And, we   will disperse an ice crystal-type nuclea in that  cloud and that, that, that synthetic ice crystal   then will be attracted to the water particles,  those minute water particles.

And then,   they become heavy enough to fall out as a  raindrop.

Clouds are generally fairly inefficient   and that's why cloud seeding does work.

There's  a lot of, a lot of moisture in the atmosphere.

A   cloud is not like a pitcher full of water and once  it pours out, it's just empty.

The atmosphere,   suitable clouds that are seeded at the proper  time, research has shown that those, those clouds   last longer and produce more rainfall, because  that atmosphere continues to keep that, that,   that cloud more or less in a constructive thing.

LAURA: I know, the state of Utah has been doing   this for a while.

You mentioned California.

I'm curious, you've been doing this a while.

Is there more and more of a demand for  these types of services, as more people   are really seeing the effects of drought?

GARY: Absolutely.

You know, it, again,   cloud seeding is not the  silver bullet.

It's not gonna   end all droughts, in all countries.

But, just  like so many other things that we have, that,   that enhance either our computers or  enhance our gas mileage or whatever,   we can enhance the rainfall and the value of what  I call a return on investment many, many times,   is minuscule, compared to what it costs to  either build a pipeline or dig a new reservoir.

Those things take lots and lots of time and so,  not to say that we shouldn't be concerned with   conservation and reuse and even new supplies, such  as they have available on the coastal areas of our   country and other countries for desalinization.

LAURA: So, I imagine that you spend a lot of time   talking with people who are pretty worried about  the drought.

I'm curious if you could, you know,   talk a little bit about what you've seen change  over the decades, when it comes to drought   and people trying different things or new things… GARY: Yeah, well my last 25 years as a water   district manager was right up across the eastern  side of New Mexico in ?

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county area, plains,   Denver city area, our water declines in the  aquifer there many years was as much as two   to three feet a year.

So, a lot of those areas,  Laura, they may only have 20-20 percent less   than 30, 40 feet of saturated thickness left  in the aquifer… pretty easy to, you know,   to divide that by two and figure out about how  many years that you have left to irrigate.

And so,   we can extend the life of the aquifer a  little by producing some additional rainfall,   not to even talk about the savings and  the pumping costs for agriculture.

And,   of course, our ranching community, I mean,  they're, they're tickled to death to have a,   you know, have a half inch anytime.

But, it's certainly important for the,   for the production of our irrigated acres.

LAURA: Well, Gary thanks so much for talking   with me.

I really appreciate it and here's  hoping we all get some good clouds this summer.

GARY: Yeah, yeah.

No kidding.

We hope so as well.

LAURA:   Hannah Risley-White.

Thanks for joining me  today to talk about weather modification.

HANNAH: Thanks, Laura.

It's a pleasure to be here.

LAURA: So, when we're talking about weather   modification, what activities are we  actually… like, what do those encompass?

HANNAH: Largely, that encompasses either  ground-based or aerial based cloud seeding,   usually, using silver iodide or  calcium or potassium chloride.

And, the idea is to put tiny particles in the  sky under exactly the right conditions to help   induce droplets to form, to increase rainfall.

LAURA: So, this isn't something that's necessarily   new in the state of New Mexico.

Procedures  for the state to evaluate and potentially   approve these projects are codified in the  state's Water Quality Act, is that right?

HANNAH: So, yeah.

Actually, the  Weather Control Act was passed in 1965   and we at New Mexico Interstate Stream Commission  were only tasked with evaluating applications   for licenses, for cloud seeding in 2003.

The legislature moved that responsibility   from New Mexico Tech to us and so, just to be  clear, we aren't necessarily proponents of it.

But, we are tasked by statute with evaluating  applications for cloud seeding in New Mexico.

LAURA: So, one application for a proposed  project in Northern New Mexico, was   recently withdrawn.

Can you talk a little  bit about what that project would have   been and kind of what happened in the process?

HANNAH: Sure, so in October of last year, so 2021,   we received an application for a license from  a company called Western Weather Consultants,   they would be the actual entity that would  have conducted this particular project,   that was ground-based cloud seedings.

This would  have been a project to induce additional rainfall   over the Sangre de Cristo mountains, through  ground-based cloud seeding, using silver iodide.

They, however, were not this project sponsor.

That was Roosevelt Soil and Water Conservation   District, which received in the 2021 legislative  session funding for cloud seeding specifically.

But, we got a tremendous amount of interest  in that application.

One of the requirements   in our process in New Mexico is that any  application for a license for cloud seeding has   to be noticed publicly in newspapers.

We received  over 250 protests associated with that particular   application.

So, lots and lots of interest in  it.

And, we're glad to see that people care and   are concerned about water issues in New Mexico.

As  you, I think know, we've also been working on the   governor's 50-year water plan over the last year  and so I'm hoping that some of the folks whose   attention was caught by the cloud seeding efforts  might get interested in that process, as well,   given the sort of scarcities that we're facing.

LAURA: Do you anticipate or does the state   anticipate getting more of these  types of applications, is this   something we're going to see more of, you think?

HANNAH: You know, what I would not be surprised,   given that we're in the third year of  a significant drought across the state.

And, as I mentioned earlier, doing this work on  the 50-year water plan, you know, the anticipated   increasing scarcity to our water supplies across  the state is significant.

We're looking at a 25   reduction in water supplies by 2070.

So, I think  people will, you know, continue to have quite a   bit of interest in cloud seeding.

I should also  mention that in receiving the application that we   received last fall for the Sangres and in looking  at this current application that, you know, we   have some thoughts at the staff level, in terms  of potential changes to the rule.

The weather   enhancement rule, which is what governs how these  applications are handled… we also heard pretty   loud and clear from folks last fall that that  they'd like to see some changes.

For example,   protests have to be received in writing and  within certain time period.

And so, I do think,   and we flagged for our commission at our last  Interstate Stream Commission meeting that they   should anticipate some chain, potential changes  to the rule coming this year.

That would make it,   bring it into the 21st century a little bit,  make it easier for folks who care and want   to engage and also streamline the process for us.

LAURA: So, you mentioned some really stark numbers   there and I'm curious, because you know, looking  at the current application before the state, you   know, they note that industry standards suggest  that a 15 to 20 percent increase in rainfall is   likely over a normal summer seating season of four  to six months… like that seems like such a slim,   you know, like a slim chance that we're  taking.

But, is the water situation in   New Mexico such that we're just trying  to grab at any tool or possibility?

Like, how big of an impact could  weather modification really have?

HANNAH: I mean, I think it can be successful,  given certain, just the right circumstances.

So, from my understanding, even that 15 to 20  percent increases is, is, you know, in the under   exactly the right conditions, right?

So, I think,  you know, what's been interesting as part of this   50-year water planning effort, is there's a lot  of folks who's look to solutions that involve   increasing supply.

So, that could be cloud  seeding or inter-basin transfers or all those   types of things.

In my opinion, a lot of those are  challenging and expensive and sometimes where you,   you actually get the biggest bang for your buck  is conservation, right?

So, how do we look at   how we're using the water that we have now  in our existing basins and use it more wisely   and probably ultimately the solution will be  some combination of all of those things.

Lots   of tools in the, in the toolbox, but certainly  more work needs to be done on a basin by basin,   basis and with the water users and stakeholders  in each of those basins, to think through what are   the solutions that make sense in each of those  regions, given the scarcity that we're facing   and I don't think that cloud seeding is some  silver bullet that will solve all of our problems,   by any means, yeah.

But, it could be a part of,  it could be a part of the solution, especially for   communities that feel comfortable with it.

LAURA: Well, Hannah Risley-White.

Thank   you so much for talking with me about  this.

It's a really fascinating topic.

HANNAH: You're so welcome.

I'm  happy and thanks for having me.