♪ ♪ >> Mary: AND NOW WE'RE GOING TO TALK ENERGY.

WE KNOW THIS STAT, GAS PRICES ARE UP 86 CENTS IN THE LAST MONTH, IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA, IT'S KIND OF AMONG THE HIGHER ONES IN THE NATION.

WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT IF RENEWABLES ARE HELPING OR NOT.

THESE ARE THE TWO PEOPLE THAT CAN ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS AND MANY MORE ON ENERGY.

WE HAVE DFL CHAIR NICK FRENTZ AND REPUBLICAN LEAD ANDREW MATHEWS.

SO, SENATOR FRENTZ, WHY ISN'T MINNESOTA DOING BETTER?

WHY ARE WE STILL AMONG THE BIGGERS INCREASES IN THE COUNTRY IF WE HAVE THESE REALLY AGGRESSIVE RENEWABLE ENERGY STANDARDS?

>> ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT GAS PRICES?

>> Mary: GAS PRICES, YEAH.

>> THE MAIN CHANGE IN GAS PRICES IS COMING FROM THE CONSTRICTION IN THE MIDDLE EAST, I HOPE IT'S TEMPORARY, I KNOW MINNESOTA DRIVERS HOPE IT'S TEMPORARY.

>> Mary: YEAH, WHAT ABOUT THE -- WHAT'S ABOUT MINNESOTA?

PEOPLE CARE ABOUT GAS PRICES, CONSUMERS FEEL IT.

>> YEAH, I WOULD AGREE.

THE PRICES HAVE BEEN GOING UP EVERYWHERE.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANYTHING TARGETING MINNESOTA.

I THINK WHAT WE COULD DO IS LOOK AT IF THIS DOES GO ON LONG, WHICH NO ONE HOPES IT DOES, WE SHOULD LOOK AT MAYBE A TEMPORARY GAS TAX HOLIDAY OR SOMETHING WE CAN CONTROL ON THE STATE END.

BUT, YEAH, PRICES ARE GOING BACK UP TO KIND OF HOW THEY WERE A FEW YEARS AGO AFTER HAVING SOME DECREASES IN THE LAST YEAR OR SO.

>> SO BACK TO THE RENEWABLE PART, DO WE GET RELIEF IN OTHER AREAS BECAUSE OF THE RENEWABLES IN THE STATE?

>> WE DO.

IN OUR COMMITTEE, WE'VE HAD SOME TESTIMONY ABOUT THE PRICE OF WIND AND SOLAR.

RIGHT NOW WIND AND SOLAR'S THE LOWEST COST IT HAS EVER BEEN AND IT'S VERY COMPETITIVE WITH OTHER FORMS OF ENERGY.

ONE OF THE THINGS SENATOR MATHEWS BRINGS TO THE COMMITTEE IS THE REMINDER THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE BASE LOAD ENERGY AS WELL.

SO WHERE WE ARE IN MINNESOTA TODAY, WE NEED BOTH BASE LOAD AND INTERMITTENT.

I THINK ONE OF THE AREAS WE'LL SEE IMPROVEMENT IN THE FUTURE IS IN BATTERY STORAGE.

I'M A BIG BELIEVER IN AMERICAN INNOVATION, AND I THINK AMERICANS ARE GOING TO SEE IMPROVEMENT IN THE ABILITY TO STORE IT, WHICH WILL HELP LOWER COSTS WITH THOSE INTERMITTENT RESOURCES.

>> Mary: WHAT ABOUT THAT IS BIPARTISAN?

WHAT DO YOU LIKE?

>> WELL, I'M OPEN TO ALL TECHNOLOGIES.

BUT RENEWABLES ARE VERY WEATHER DEPENDENT AND THEY HAVE A MUCH SHORTER LIFE SPAN.

AND THEY -- THEY'RE OFTEN CHEAPER BECAUSE A LOT OF FEDERAL SUBSIDIES THAT CAME IN ON THE FRONT END.

SO WE AVE TO KEEP THAT IN MIND WITH THE GROWTH OF RENEWABLES, THERE'S A LIMIT AT THIS POINT TO WHAT WE CAN DO WITHOUT IT BEING TOO FAR ON WEATHER DEPENDENT RESOURCES.

AND THAT'S WHY EVEN ON DAYS STILL TODAY, RIGHT NOW WE'RE STILL POWERED BY ABOUT 70 TO 75% BETWEEN GAS, COAL, AND NUCLEAR AS OUR FIRM BASE LOAD ENERGY.

>> Mary: AND THAT FEDERAL SUPPORT IS DIMINISHING OR GONE, WHERE ARE WE AT WITH THAT?

>> WELL, WE'RE GOING TO SEE SOME OF THE SUBSIDIES GONE AT THE END OF THE YEAR.

WE ARE ALSO TALKING ABOUT THE WAY THE STATES CHOOSE TO SENT ADVISE IT.

I'M IN AGREEMENT THAT ONCE A TECHNOLOGY'S ESTABLISHED THEN THERE'S LESS OF A REASON FOR GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES.

INCENTIVIZE.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, SOLAR PANELS ARE NOW DOWN ABOUT 90% FROM WHERE THEY WERE 'IN THE EARLY 2010s.

THAT'S A GOOD THING.

I NO LONGER FEEL THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF GOVERNMENT SUPPORT FOR THAT PARTICULAR ENERGY.

I STILL LIKE OIL AND GAS EXPLORATION.

THEY STILL GET A EDUCTION FOR THAT.

HOPEFULLY WE'LL PHASE THAT OUT.

OF COURSE, NOW HERE'S MORE OF AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE COST OF CLIMATE CHANGE, INCLUDING THE STUDY THAT CAME OUT THIS WEEK THAT SUGGESTED MINNESOTA'S GOING TO PAY $20 BILLION A YEAR FOR CLIMATE-RELATED COSTS.

SO STAY TUNED.

>> Mary: I DON'T THINK YOU WERE PEEKING AT MY NOTES, BUT THAT WAS IN MY OTES ABOUT THE STUDY THAT CAME OUT.

WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT THE CLIMATE CHANGE SAYING, 20 BILLION, THAT'S JUST FOR MINNESOTA, IF IT DOESN'T GET ADDRESSED.

>> YEAH, SENATOR FRENTZ MENTIONED IT IN COMMITTEE.

I HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET HERE.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF WIDE VIEWS ON IT.

AND STILL A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE DISAGREEMENTS OVER IT.

WITH HOW IT'S APPLIED AS TO HOW MUCH DOES IT JUSTIFY MORE REGULATION AND MORE COSTS ON MINNESOTANS.

AND THAT'S WHERE I THINK A LOT OF THE DISAGREEMENT COMES IN.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT HERE FOR THE MAN-MADE VERSUS WHATEVER DEBATE, BUT WHEN IT'S JUSTIFIED AS WHY WE'RE GOING TO SE MORE REGULATION OR MORE TAXES, YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T RAISE OUR TAXES TO FIX THE WEATHER.

THAT'S JUST NOT RESPONSIBLE GOVERNANCE.

SO THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT WE TRY TO PUSH BACK ON AND HAVE OUR COMMITTEE LOOK AT.

>> Mary: LET'S DRILL DOWN ON SOME OF THOSE COSTS BECAUSE ILLNESS WAS ONE OF THEM.

AND WE HAVE SEEN, YOU KNOW, THROUGH THOSE WILDFIRES THAT MINNESOTA HAD SOME OF THE WORST AIR QUALITY ANYWHERE THROUGH THAT.

SO THAT SEEMS LIKE A REAL COST.

DOES IT SEEM REAL TO THE TWO OF YOU?

>> I THINK IT IS.

WE'VE AD A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE COST OF HEALTHCARE GOING BACK TO WHEN WE STARTED ARGUING ABOUT HOW MUCH DOES IT COST THAT AMERICANS SMOKE CIGARETTES.

THERE'S LUNG CANCER, THERE'S HEALTH COSTS.

HOW MUCH?

I THINK IT'S A EASONABLE DEBATE.

BUT THERE'S NOT MUCH DEBATE THAT THERE IS A COST.

AND FOR CLIMATE CHANGE, YOU MENTIONED WILDFIRES, SAME THING, I THINK IT'S CLEAR THERE IS A COST.

WE HAVE STORMS NOW THAT ARE $50 BILLION, ONE STORM.

THOSE GO RIGHT TO INSURANCE R COSTS, INSURANCE COSTS COME RIGHT BACK TO PEOPLE AND PREMIUMS.

SO, WHILE WE MAY NOT AGREE ON THE AMOUNT EXACTLY, I THINK IT'S CLEAR THERE'S DOCUMENTATION THAT T'S A COST.

>> Mary: NSURANCE COSTS IS A REAL DATA POINT.

DO YOU AGREE THAT WE ARE SEEING AN INCREASE IN, YOU KNOW, CROP ISSUES, HEALTH ISSUES, SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS?

>> YEAH.

THERE'S AN INCREASE.

AND, YES, THE WILDFIRES HAVE KIND OF RUINED BOTH OF OUR LAST TWO SUMMERS THAT WE'VE HAD.

AND SOME OF IT IS POINTED BACK TO JUST POOR MANAGEMENT THAT HAVE LED TO THESE MORE WILD AREAS THAT HAVE BEEN PRONE TO GET FIRES LIKE THIS.

WE SAW THIS IN CALIFORNIA AND IN CANADA AND OTHER PLACES LIKE THAT.

SO FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO DO THE PROPER MANAGEMENT THAT WE NEED TO DO, AND THERE'S A LOT MORE THAT WE CAN CONTROL THAN WHAT SOME LIKE TO ADMIT.

>> Mary: WHAT ABOUT AGRICULTURAL IMPACTS, WE'RE SEEING THAT FROM LONGTIME FARMERS SAYING THEY ARE SEEING MORE EXTREME WEATHER, AND THAT'S A COST.

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY A FACTOR THAT WE HAVE TO WORK WITH AND ADAPT.

YEAH, IT'S ABSOLUTELY SOMETHING WE'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR.

>> Mary: HOW ABOUT DATA CENTERS, HAT'S THE OTHER BIG ISSUE THAT IS COMING FAST AND FURIOUS, AND BIPARTISAN CONCERN IN BOTH CHAMBERS.

HOW MUCH OF A DRAG IS THAT GOING TO BE ON ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE?

>> I'M GLAD YOU ASKED BECAUSE YOU'RE SITTING WITH TWO SENATORS WHO FEEL THAT THE BILL THAT WAS PASSED ON DATA CENTERS LAST YEAR IS A RESPONSIBLE BALANCING.

WE HAVE TO HAVE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, WE HAVE TO CREATE A SPACE FOR PEOPLE THAT BUILD THESE PLACES, THE PROPERTY TAX IMPACTS ARE SIGNIFICANT, BUT WE HAVE MINNESOTANS WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE ENERGY USE AND ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT.

IN MY OPINION, THE BILL THAT CAME THROUGH MINNESOTA LAST YEAR WAS A GREAT BILL, WE'RE HEARING OTHER STATES, INCLUDING OHIO -- >> Mary: NOTHING MORE?

THERE'S OTHER NEW BILLS ON, YOU KNOW, RELEASING INFORMATION, ARE YOU OKAY WITH WHAT PASSED OR SHOULD WE HAVE SOMETHING NEW?

BIPARTISAN BILLS GOING THROUGH BOTH CHAMBERS.

>> IT WAS A BIPARTISAN BILL, BUT I WENT FROM AUTHORING ONE OF THE FIRST DATA CENTER BILLS TO VOTING AGAINST THAT PACKAGE AT THE END BECAUSE IT MISSED ON OME REALLY IMPORTANT REGULATORY REFORM PIECES THAT WERE NEEDED.

IN LAST YEAR'S BILL, THERE WERE A COUPLE PIECES THAT I AM GLAD THAT THEY GOT AND THAT WERE OOD, BUT THERE WERE A BUNCH OF OTHER PIECES THAT I THINK WERE A NET DETRIMENT AND I'M WORKING ON TRYING TO BRING MY BILL BACK AGAIN, SEE IF WE CAN BACK UP, WE'RE FINDING, LIKE, A SECONDING ANGLE TO TRY TO GO AT IT TO HELP ESPECIALLY SOME OF OUR HOST COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE RETIRING PLANTS THAT NEED TO LOOK AT NEW ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

>> Mary: REAL QUICK, HORTMAN, SOLAR GARDENS, PASSED THE HOUSE, SENATE NEXT?

>> YES.

>> Mary: EASY?

>> IF THERE'S OPPOSITION TO IT, I HAVE NOT HEARD IT.

>> Mary: ANY OPPOSITION?

>> NOT THAT I'M AWARE OF.

>> Mary: THANK YOU, SENATORS.