REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS THE DISTINGUISHED FORMER SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO, JEFF BINGAMAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>JEFF: THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

>>LORENE: WELL YOU'RE KIND OF A PILLAR OF THE BEST THAT POLITICS IN NEW MEXICO HAS HAD TO OFFER.

YOU WERE THE SENIOR SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO, BUT YOU SERVED FOR 30 YEARS AND IT'S FUNNY BECAUSE AND YOU WERE NINTH IN SENIORITY WHEN YOU LEFT.

YOU SERVED FIVE TERMS AND YET YOU WERE THE LONGEST SERVING JUNIOR SENATOR BECAUSE PETE DOMENICI SERVED EVEN LONGER AND YOU MADE A GREAT TEAM, OH MY GOSH YOU MADE A GREAT TEAM.

YOU WERE THE LONG-TERM CHAIR OF THE ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES COMMITTEE, YOU WERE ON OTHER VERY IMPORTANT COMMITTEES.

YOU WERE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF NEW MEXICO FROM 1979 TO 1983.

YOU WENT TO STANFORD LAW SCHOOL, I WANT TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT YOUR ENERGY WORK WITH GEORGE SCHULTZ THERE AND YOUR WORK WITH THE ETHICS COMMISSION BUT I WILL LET YOU TALK.

I AM GOING TO GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING, YOU GREW UP IN SILVER CITY AND AT AGE 15, YOU WERE AN EAGLE SCOUT, YOU WANT TO TAKE US FROM THERE.

>>JEFF: WELL I WENT ON TO COLLEGE AND LAW SCHOOL AND THEN PRACTICED LAW HERE.

WELL FIRST I WORKED FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AS AN ASSISTANT, THAT WAS MY FIRST JOB OUT OF LAW SCHOOL REALLY AND DID THAT FOR ABOUT A YEAR.

IN FACT I DID THAT DURING THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION THAT WE HAD HERE IN NEW MEXICO IN 1969.

SO I SORT OF GOT INTERESTED IN THE POLITICS OF THE STATE AT THAT POINT AND THEN WENT INTO PRIVATE LAW PRACTICE FOR EIGHT OR NINE YEARS AND RAN FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL AND SERVED THERE FOR FOUR YEARS AND THEN I RAN FOR THE SENATE AS YOU SAID I STAYED THERE 30 YEARS.

>>LORENE: YES AND WHEN YOU DID RUN FOR SENATE, YOUR OPPOSITION WAS HARRISON SCHMIDT, THE MAN WHO HAD MOST RECENTLY WALKED ON THE MOON AT THAT TIME.

A CAMPAIGN SLOGAN THAT SOMEONE CAME UP WITH THAT WAS JUST SO PERFECT WAS, "WHAT ON EARTH HAS HE DONE FOR US LATELY?"

SO, YOU DEFEATED HIM AND WENT ON TO SERVE YOUR 30 YEARS.

ONE OF THE REASONS I ASKED YOU HERE TODAY IS TO TALK ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK, BREAKDOWN: LESSONS FOR A CONGRESS IN CRISIS.

SO IN 30 YEARS YOU WERE ABLE TO SEE WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DIDN'T WORK AND YOU WRITE ABOUT IT HERE.

IT IS ONE OF THE MOST VALUABLE BOOKS I HAVE READ ABOUT POLITICS.

AND WHAT YOU BRING US IS STORIES OF A COUPLE OF BILLS THAT I WAS PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN - THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT WAS ONE.

YOU WERE ONLY ONE OF 23 SENATORS TO VOTE AGAINST THE WAR IN IRAQ, THANK YOU.

AND ALSO, THE VALLES CALDERA AND PUBLIC LANDS.

WHEN I READ IN THIS BOOK ABOUT WHAT IT TOOK, THE YEARS IT TOOK, THE DIFFERENT WAYS OF CONFIGURING IT SO IT COULD BE PROTECTED BECAUSE PEOPLE LOVE THAT, CAN YOU AT LEAST TELL US WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH TO PROTECT THE VALLES CALDERA.

>>JEFF: WELL A LOT OF PEOPLE WORKED ON IT AND I DON'T CLAIM SOLE CREDIT BY ANY MEANS, BUT WE WERE FORTUNATE IN THAT THE DUNIGAN FAMILY WHICH OWNED THE PROPERTY, THEY DECIDED TO SELL AND THEIR FIRST CHOICE WAS TO SELL IT TO THE GOVERNMENT SO THAT IT WOULDN'T BE BROKEN UP INTO SMALL TRACTS AND... >>LORENE: RANCHETTES.

>>JEFF: YEAH, RANCHETTES AND THAT SORT OF THING.

AND SO THEY CAME TO CONGRESS, THEY CAME TO TALK TO EACH MEMBER OF THE DELEGATION FROM NEW MEXICO, AND SAID, IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET THE GOVERNMENT TO BUY THIS AND THEY WANTED RIGHT AT ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS, I THINK ONE HUNDRED AND ONE MILLION DOLLARS FOR THE PROPERTY.

AND THAT WAS A PRETTY HEAVY LIFT AT THE TIME AND WE WENT THROUGH VARIATIONS OF HOW IT COULD BE ACQUIRED AND MY FIRST EFFORT WAS TO TRY TO DO IT THROUGH THE FOREST SERVICE, BECAUSE THERE WAS FRANKLY LESS OPPOSITION ON REPUBLICAN SIDE OF THE SENATE TO PROPERTY BEING ACQUIRED BY THE FOREST SERVICE THAN THERE WAS TO NEW NATIONAL PARKS BEING ESTABLISHED, ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

SO ANYWAY, WE GOT IT ACQUIRED AND SENATOR DOMENICI, OF COURSE, WAS ESSENTIAL TO THAT.

WE GOT IT FUNDED AND THEN SET IT UP IN A FORM WHERE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO PAY FOR ITSELF, WHICH NEVER MADE ANY SENSE, BUT THAT WAS WHAT WAS DEMANDED IN ORDER TO GET IT PASSED.

THEN EVENTUALLY WE GOT TO A POINT WHERE THE CONGRESS RECOGNIZED THEY HAD TO JUST GO AHEAD AND FORMALIZE THIS THING AND TREAT IT LIKE A NATIONAL PART AND SO WE WERE ABLE TO GET IT TRANSFERRED FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE WHERE THE FOREST SERVICE IS TO THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR WHERE THE PARK SERVICE IS.

AND SENATORS HEINRICH AND UDALL DESERVE THE CREDIT FOR GETTING IT FINALLY DESIGNATED AS A NATIONAL PARK.

>>LORENE: AH, WELL, YOU KNOW IT IS JUST THE PERSISTENCE YOU HAVE TO HAVE IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND ALSO YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN REGARDED AS A STATESMAN BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE, EVEN IN THIS TIME OF CLICK-BAIT, TOXIC PARTISANSHIP, YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO WORK AND TO RECOGNIZE THE VALUE OF WORKING TOGETHER.

IT SEEMS TO BE LESS POPULAR NOW THAN IT WAS AND YOU WERE A MASTER OF IT, BUT WE ARE VERY GRATEFUL, GRATEFUL FOR THAT.

SO TALK TO ME A LITTLE ABOUT WHAT ISN'T WORKING.

YOU HAD A LIST OF THE FIVE IMPEDIMENTS.

>>JEFF: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: AND THEN THE EIGHT WORTHY EFFORTS FOR THE PEOPLE'S BUSINESS.

>>JEFF: RIGHT >>LORENE: DO YOU WANT TO TELL US WHAT ARE THE IMPEDIMENTS, WHAT WASN'T WORKING.

>>JEFF: WELL THE IMPEDIMENTS I TRY TO DEAL WITH TWO BIG SUBJECTS.

ONE IS THE FUNCTIONING OF CONGRESS ITSELF AND THEN SECOND, THE OBSTACLES OR IMPEDIMENTS THAT INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS HAVE WHEN THEY COME TO CONGRESS INTENDING TO SERVE THE PUBLIC INTEREST, WHAT GETS IN THE WAY, WHY DOESN'T IT WORK OUT THAT WAY.

AND SO I TALK ABOUT THE VARIOUS PRESSURES THAT THEY ARE UNDER.

THE PRESSURE FROM SPECIAL INTERESTS, THE PRESSURES TO TOE THE PARTY LINE, THE PRESSURES THAT THEY ARE UNDER TO DO WHAT THE POLLS DICTATE THEY OUGHT TO BE DOING, PRESSURE FROM THE MEDIA, TALK ABOUT THAT AS WELL AND IDEOLOGY.

>>LORENE: ABSOLUTELY.

>>JEFF: IDEOLOGY GETS IN THE WAY BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE WHO COME TO CONGRESS WITH A VERY STRONG IDEOLOGY AND THE PARTICULAR IDEOLOGY I DISCUSS IN THE BOOK IS THE SORT OF ANTI-GOVERNMENT IDEOLOGY, WHICH I THINK BECAME FAIRLY PREVALENT DURING THE TIME I WAS SERVING IN WASHINGTON AND STILL IS.

YOU HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE IN CONGRESS, PARTICULARLY ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, WHO SORT OF MADE A CAREER OUT OF DEMEANING THE GOVERNMENT AND BASICALLY NOT WILLING TO ALLOW THE GOVERNMENT TO DO THINGS WHICH REALLY AREN'T GOING TO BE DONE IF THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T DO THEM.

BUT I TALK ABOUT THOSE VARIOUS IMPEDIMENTS AND THEN IN THESE EIGHT WORTHY EFFORTS THAT I TALK ABOUT I SORT OF GO THROUGH WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO DURING THE 30 YEARS I WAS THERE AND HOW THESE VARIOUS IMPEDIMENTS GOT IN THE WAY AND WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO ON ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE.

>>LORENE: AND THE ECONOMY.

>>JEFF: AND THE ECONOMY.

MAINTAINING A STRONG ECONOMY AND EXTENDING HEALTHCARE COVERAGE.

>>LORENE: HEALTHCARE, EDUCATION, PUBLIC LANDS.

>>JEFF: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: AND AVOIDING WARS, THANK YOU FOR YOUR IRAQ VOTE.

>>JEFF: WE MADE A FAILED EFFORT TO DO THAT.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

AND MOST PEOPLE WOULD CERTAINLY APPLAUD THAT THESE ARE WORTHY EFFORTS FOR THE PUBLIC BUSINESS AND YET THEY SEEM TO GET LOST IN THE SHUFFLE SO QUICKLY.

I THINK MAYBE IN TERMS OF DYSFUNCTION OF THE CONGRESS, CAN WE ADMIT THAT THEY MIGHT BE WORSE NOW THAN WHEN YOU WERE THERE.

>>JEFF: OH I THINK IT CLEARLY IS WORSE NOW.

I MEAN THE FOUR EXAMPLES OF SORT OF DYSFUNCTION THAT I DESCRIBE I CALL THEM, IN FACT, IT'S WHERE THE TITLE OF THE BOOK COMES FROM, I TALK ABOUT THE BREAKDOWN IN CONGRESSIONAL GOVERNING NORMS.

THAT'S A MOUTH FULL, BUT ANY RATE, THE FOUR EXAMPLES ARE SHUTTING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT.

I MEAN, WHEN I FIRST GOT TO CONGRESS, I WAS THERE FOR 12 YEARS BEFORE WE REALLY HAD A GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN AND THAT HAPPENED AFTER NEWT GINGRICH BECAME SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, HE HAD THIS CONFRONTATION WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON AND DECIDED THAT HIS STRATEGY SHOULD BE TO SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT AND BY DOING SO RATCHET UP PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT CLINTON TO BASICALLY BUCKLE UNDER AND AGREE TO WHATEVER THE REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED HOUSE WANTED.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, THAT KEPT GOING, HE STARTED IT, IT WAS 1995 AND IT RAN INTO 1996, THEY BROUGHT IT BACK AGAIN WHEN PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS IN OFFICE AND THEY SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT THERE AND THEN OF COURSE PRESIDENT TRUMP DECIDED THAT IF THE CONGRESS WANTED TO USE THAT TACTIC TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE PRESIDENT, WHY DIDN'T HE AS PRESIDENT USE IT TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE CONGRESS, SO HE SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT FOR 34 DAYS IN ORDER TO TRY TO FORCE CONGRESS TO FUND THE WALL THAT HE WANTED TO BUILD ON THE BORDER.

HE FINALLY GAVE UP AND CONGRESS DID NOT BUCKLE UNDER THERE JUST LIKE BILL CLINTON DID NOT BUCKLE UNDER BEFORE, BUT WE HAVE HAD A HISTORY NOW OF THESE SHUTDOWNS WHICH PEOPLE HAVE COME TO ACCEPT AS THE NORMAL WAY THAT GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONS AND IT REALLY ISN'T.

I MEAN IT IS NOT THE WAY WE HISTORICALLY HAVE FUNCTIONED, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE A GREAT STEP FORWARD IF WE COULD GET BACK TO SOME SHARED RESPONSIBILITY FOR KEEPING THE GOVERNMENT FUNDED, YOU KNOW QUIT THE SHUTDOWN.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

THERE ARE OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS THAT YOU HAVE MADE.

BY THE WAY ONE THING I LOVE ABOUT THE TITLE OF BREAKDOWN , NOT ONLY DO YOU DESCRIBE THE DYSFUNCTION AND DISINTEGRATION AS YOU SAY OF STANDARD GOVERNING NORMS, THAT BREAKDOWN IS A STRUCTURAL DISINTEGRATION, BUT YOU BREAK IT DOWN INTELLECTUALLY, SO CAREFULLY WITH ALL OF THESE ELEMENTS THAT WE LOOK AT AND I SAW THINGS IN A WHOLE NEW LIGHT.

SOME OF YOUR OTHER THINGS BESIDES REFORMING THE FILIBUSTER AND ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO FUNDING NATIONAL GOVERNMENT, BUT THAT POLITICIANS SHOULD AVOID MAKING THESE PLEDGES WHERE THEY WILL NEVER DO ANYTHING, YOU CAN'T COOPERATE, YOU CAN'T COMPROMISE IF YOU HAVE SWORN TO ALWAYS BAN THIS OR BAN THAT.

>>JEFF: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: AND SO THE WHOLE THING ABOUT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE SENATE IS A LESS HOT ENVIRONMENT THAN THE FIGHTS IN THE HOUSE AND IT ISLIKE TEA COOLED IN THE SAUCER AND EVERYONE CAN TALK ABOUT IT AND EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A ROOM TO GIVE AND TAKE A LITTLE BIT.

>>JEFF: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS YOU AVOID ARE THE ADVOCACY MEDIA.

SO BY THE WAY WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH FORMER SENATOR JEFF BINGAMAN ABOUT HIS WONDERFUL NEW BOOK CALLED BREAKDOWN .

THE MEDIA WHEN YOU STARTED OUT WAS EVERYONE WATCHED THE SAME BROADCAST NEWS.

>>JEFF: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: THE SAME NEWSPAPERS AND EVERYTHING.

AND NOW THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED ADVOCACY MEDIA WHERE EVERY POINT OF VIEW ON THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM HAS ITS CHEERING SQUAD AND ITS PREACHERS AND EVERYONE JUST TUNES INTO PEOPLE THAT REINFORCE THEIR OWN PERSONAL BELIEFS.

AND THERE IS NO DIALOGUE, THERE IS NO WORKING TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR EVERYBODY AND SO AS A MEMBER OF THE MEDIA, ALTHOUGH PBS DOESN'T DO THAT SO MUCH, I GRIEVE BECAUSE WE COULD BE HELPING EDUCATE AND ENLIGHTEN AND FIND SOLUTIONS AND A LOT OF THE THINGS I SEE ARE JUST THE DOORS SLAMMING SHUT, IT'S THIS WAY OR NOTHING.

>>JEFF: NO, I AGREE, I THINK THE MEDIA, AS THE COUNTRY HAS GOTTEN POLARIZED, THE MEDIA HAS ALSO GOTTEN VERY POLARIZED AND PEOPLE DO JUST WATCH THE CHANNEL OR SOCIAL MEDIA THAT THEY ARE MOST IN AGREEMENT WITH.

AND SO YOU DON'T HAVE DIALOGUE, YOU DON'T HAVE DISAGREEMENTS, WE ARE A LONG WAY FROM WHERE WE WERE WHEN I GOT STARTED IN POLITICS.

>>LORENE: WELL AND I OFTEN TURN TO THE BBC NEWS OR THE GUARDIAN NEWSPAPER JUST FOR HOW IT LOOKS FROM OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY.

>>JEFF: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE THERE'S SO MUCH SPIN IT IS REALLY HARD TO GET THE STRAIGHT STORY.

>>JEFF: NO, IT REALLY IS, I AGREE.

>>LORENE: YES.

SO YOUR SUGGESTIONS ARE SO ARTICULATE.

WHAT CAN PEOPLE DO, THE NORMAL PEOPLE, YOU KNOW WHO WATCH GOVERNMENT AND WANT TO KNOW MORE, WHAT IS THE ROLE OF THE CITIZEN TO... >>JEFF: WELL I THINK CITIZENS NEED TO VALUE INDEPENDENCE AND VALUE THESE VIRTUES THAT I THINK GO INTO BEING A GOOD MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND THEN THEY NEED TO TALK TO CANDIDATES ABOUT IT AND ASK THEM, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS YOUR POSITION ON THE IDEA OF SHUTTING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT, WHAT IS YOUR POSITION ON DEFAULTING ON THE NATIONAL DEBIT, IS THIS SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE PART OF DOING THAT OR ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP THINGS FUNCTIONING SO THAT WE CAN TRY TO DEAL WITH OUR NATIONAL PROBLEMS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK POLITICIANS, UNDERSTANDABLY, PAY THE MOST ATTENTION AS THEY ARE GOING INTO AN ELECTION AND SO WE ARE GOING INTO ONE RIGHT NOW AND THIS IS A GOOD TIME FOR CITIZENS TO GO OUT TO A RALLY OR SOMETHING AND IF THEY GET A CHANCE TO SPEAK TO THEIR SENATOR OR CONGRESSMAN OR CANDIDATE FOR CONGRESS ASK THEM THOSE QUESTIONS.

>>LORENE: YOU KNOW, ONE THING I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS THE TELEVISION EDGE BE VETTED FOR TELLING THE TRUTH.

>>JEFF: THAT WOULD BE GOOD.

>>LORENE: AND PEOPLE DEPEND ON MASS MEDIA FOR THEIR INFORMATION AND IT IS MISINFORMATION.

>>JEFF: OH YEAH.

>>LORENE: AND I WONDER IF THERE WILL EVER BE A BROADCASTER THAT WILL STEP UP AND SAY, "WELL THIS ACTUALLY ISN'T TRUE, AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO RUN IT."

>>JEFF: YEAH.

>>LORENE: I AM JUST WAITING FOR THAT DAY.

>>JEFF: NO, I THINK IT WOULD BE A GREAT STEP FORWARD.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

AND SO WHAT WE ARE CALLING OUT THE VOTERS TO DO IS TO DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND ALSO LOOK FOR INDEPENDENT SOURCES EVALUATING, SAY, THE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS OF THE CANDIDATES.

THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS DOES A VERY GOOD JOB, VOTENM.ORG, YOU CAN FIND THE PRO AND CON OF EACH YOU KNOW AND STATEMENTS FROM THE CANDIDATES SO THAT YOU CAN DO YOUR RESEARCH AND NOT BE SWAYED BY KIND OF HATE MONGERING ADS.

>>JEFF: RIGHT, NO, NO, THEY ARE VERY NEGATIVE.

>>LORENE: I WOULD LIKE TO COME BACK TO SOME OF YOUR EARLIER AREAS OF EXPERTISE.

YOU WENT TO STANFORD LAW SCHOOL AND YOU WERE THERE WITH A JOINT TASKFORCE WITH GEORGE SCHULTZ REVIEWING ALL THE STATE ENERGY LAWS IN ALL THE STATES AND FINDING OUT WHAT REALLY WORKS.

HAVE WE BEEN ABLE TO IMPLEMENT SOME OF THOSE SUCCESSFUL STRATEGIES HERE IN NEW MEXICO?

>>JEFF: WELL, WHAT WE DID WAS AS YOU SAY WE WERE TRYING TO SORT OF LOOK AROUND THE COUNTRY AND SAY, WHAT HAVE INDIVIDUAL STATES DONE TO TRY TO TRANSITION, ACCELERATE THE TRANSITION TO MORE USE OF RENEWABLE ENERGY, AND HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THOSE EXAMPLES AND HOPE THAT OTHER STATES WOULD PICK UP ON THOSE.

AND I THINK SOME HAVE, NOT BECAUSE OF THE WORK WE DID, BUT JUST IN GENERAL I THINK THERE IS MORE INTEREST NOW ON THE PART OF THE UTILITIES, OF COURSE, UTILITIES ARE UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE TO SHUT DOWN THEIR COAL-FIRED GENERATION AND MOVE TO RENEWABLE ENERGY AND IF THEY FOUND THAT SOME STATES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH THAT AND HELP ACCELERATE THAT, SO THAT'S WHAT WE WERE LOOKING AT AND I THINK IT WAS A GOOD EFFORT.

WE CAME OUT WITH A PUBLICATION, WHICH I HOPE SOME PEOPLE READ.

>>LORENE: WELL IT IS REFERENCED IN YOUR BOOKS.

>>JEFF: YEAH.

>>LORENE: THIS IS ONE OF THE BEAUTIFUL THINGS ABOUT THIS BOOK IS THAT ALL THESE THREADS OF POLITICAL INTRIGUE YOU HAVE A REFERENCE FOR THEM LIKE RUMSFELD'S KNOWN UNKNOWNS AND ALL OF THIS AND I THOUGHT THIS IS REALLY HANDY, THIS IS EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR RIGHT IN A LITTLE NOTE.

BUT I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR WORK WITH ENERGY BECAUSE AS CHAIR OF THE ENERGY COMMITTEE FOR SO LONG AND I ACTUALLY HAVE THE REFERENCE FOR THAT REPORT, I AM GOING TO LOOK AT IT AGAIN.

AND IT IS WONDERFUL THAT NOW THE PUBLIC IS BECOMING MORE AWARE OF THE CHALLENGE OF CLIMATE CHANGE AND MOVING, YOU KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE REALLY GOING SOLAR IN THEIR HOUSE, GOING ELECTRIC IN THEIR CARS, AND JUST TRYING TO MAKE STEPS FORWARD.

>>JEFF: YEAH, I THINK THAT IS RIGHT, I THINK PEOPLE ARE MORE, FOR A LONG TIME THE PUBLIC REALLY, YOU KNOW, AND FRANKLY THIS GETS BACK TO SPECIAL INTERESTS, I THINK PART OF WHAT THE LOBBYING CAMPAIGN AGAINST ACTION BY CONGRESS TO DEAL WITH CLIMATE CHANGE.

FOR A LONG TIME, MUCH OF THAT CAMPAIGN WAS TO UNDERMINE PUBLIC CONFIDENCE IN THE SCIENCE AND BASICALLY PERSUADE THE PUBLIC THAT YOU KNOW, WE DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING BOLD, WE DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE HERE, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW THESE ARE A BUNCH OF ALARMISTS, THESE SCIENTISTS WHO KEEP TALKING ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING.

SO THE PUBLIC I THINK HAS GONE PAST THAT NOW AND THEY SEE WHAT HAPPENED WITH RECENT HURRICANE DOWN IN FLORIDA AND THEY ARE REALIZING THAT A LOT OF FLORIDA IS GOING TO BE UNDER WATER IF WE DON'T FIND WAYS TO REDUCE THE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS.

>>LORENE: AND ANOTHER THING THAT PERSUADES PEOPLE, WHEN THE INSURANCE COMPANIES IN FLORIDA WOULDN'T DO A 30 YEAR MORTGAGE ON ANY BEACH SIDE PROPERTY, THAT'S ENOUGH TO MAKE EVEN A DENIER THINK, HUM, THE INSURANCE COMPANIES ARE VERY CONSERVATIVE AND THIS IS WHAT THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO DO, MAYBE I SHOULD PAY ATTENTION TO THIS.

>>JEFF: RIGHT, NO I AGREE.

NO I THINK A LOT OF THEM HAVE MUCH MORE OF A FOCUS ON THE LONG TERM IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE THAN THE REST OF US.

>>LORENE: BUT I DO GRIEVE THE ANTI SCIENCE THREAD, KIND OF UNDERCURRENT, THAT RUNS THROUGH A LOT OF PEOPLE.

OF COURSE, AS SOON AS A BABY GETS SICK, THEY ARE QUITE WILLING TO DO ANYTHING SCIENCE SAYS IN MOST CASES.

BUT SCIENCE IS A TWO-EDGE SWORD, BUT WE HAVE BEEN SO BLESSED ESPECIALLY IN HEALTH AND MEDICINE AND ALL THOSE THINGS.

DON'T THROW OUT THE BABY WITH THE BATH WATER.

>>JEFF: YEAH, WELL YOU KNOW THE WHOLE CLIMATE CHANGE PROBLEM IS ONE WE HAVE CREATED THROUGH THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WE AS HUMANS HAVE CHOSEN TO USE.

I MEAN WE ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE BEEN DIGGING UP ALL THIS COAL AND SPEWING THE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS INTO THE AIR.

SO JUST LIKE WE CREATED IT, WE CAN FIX IT.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>JEFF: I MEAN WE CAN MAKE DECISIONS TO USE CLEANER WAYS TO PRODUCE ENERGY AND I THINK THAT IS FINALLY HAPPENING.

>>LORENE: AND ESPECIALLY IN NEW MEXICO.

I MEAN IF GERMANY CAN POWER MOST OF THEIR NATION'S ENERGY NEEDS WITH SOLAR AND THEY ARE NOT SUNNY LIKE NEW MEXICO IS SUNNY.

>>JEFF: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: BUT FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO HONOR YOU AND THANK YOU FOR BEING SUCH A STATESMAN FOR ALL THESE YEARS.

>>JEFF: WELL THAT'S VERY KIND.

OF COURSE, IT IS EASY TO BE THOUGHT OF AS A STATESMAN ONCE YOU ARE NO LONGER IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIGHT.

>>LORENE: IN THIS BOOK AGAIN, LET ME SHOW IT, BREAKDOWN , YOU DETAIL, YOU MUST HAVE TAKEN GREAT NOTES, THINGS LIKE HOW WE GOT THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

>>JEFF: YEAH.

>>LORENE: THERE WAS SOME STATESMANSHIP INVOLVED IN THAT WITH MANY, MANY WONDERFUL NATIONAL LEADERS WHO REALIZED THAT WE NEEDED TO DO THIS.

ALSO, THE PUBLIC LANDS, THAT TOOK A LOT OF NEGOTIATING AND I LOVE HOW YOU WENT WITH THE FOREST SERVICE BECAUSE IT WAS MORE FRIENDLY TO THE OTHER SIDE THAN IT WAS, YOU HAD TO THREAD THE NEEDLE ON ALL THESE THINGS.

AND I WOULD LOVE IT IF IN THE FEW MINUTES THAT REMAIN IF YOU COULD ADVISE OUR PEOPLE OR JUST GIVE US SOME CLOSING THOUGHTS BASED ON YOUR THIRTY YEARS IN THE SENATE AND YOUR NON-STOP WORK IN ENERGY AND ETHICS AND GOOD GOVERNMENT.

>>JEFF: WELL I DO THINK AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THE FACT THAT WE ARE COMING RIGHT UP ON A SO-CALLED MID-TERM ELECTION, SORT OF FOCUSES THE MIND A LITTLE BIT ON THE PROBLEMS WE HAVE IN THE CONGRESS AND THERE ARE WAYS TO FIX THE PROBLEMS THAT I HAVE POINTED OUT IN THIS BOOK.

I TRY TO SUGGEST WHAT THOSE ARE AND THERE ARE WAYS THAT INDIVIDUAL CONGRESSMEN, CONGRESSWOMEN, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, I GUESS THAT IS THE MORE PREFERRED PHRASE THESE DAYS.

THAT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS CAN DO A BETTER JOB, BUT THEY HAVE GOT TO BE AWARE OF THESE PRESSURES THAT THEY ARE UNDER OR THEY ARE GOING TO BE UNDER ONCE THEY ARE ELECTED AND BE READY TO PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT.

I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT THEY PUSH BACK TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE DEFEATED AT THE NEXT ELECTION BUT THEY CAN PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT.

THEY CAN PROVIDE LEADERSHIP ON SOME OF THESE ISSUES WHERE THE PUBLIC HAS BEEN MISLED AND THAT IS A CRUCIAL PART OF BEING A PUBLIC SERVANT, I THINK IS YOU HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OF GETTING GOOD INFORMATION WHEN YOU ARE A MEMBER OF CONGRESS AND WHERE THAT INFORMATION DIFFERS FROM WHAT THE PUBLIC IS BEING TOLD, YOU OUGHT TO SPEAK UP AND TRY TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC AND NOT JUST GO ALONG.

>>LORENE: AND THE PUBLIC AND THE MEDIA NEED TO REALIZE THAT A GOOD LAWMAKER WILL SOMETIMES RECEIVE NEW INFORMATION AND CHANGE A STANCE, IT ISN'T FLIP FLOPPING, IT IS GROWTH.

>>JEFF: YEAH.

>>LORENE: IT IS AN INCREASED UNDERSTANDING, AND WE SHOULDN'T YOU KNOW JUMP ALL OVER THEM BECAUSE IF YOU CAN LET THEM EXPLAIN THEMSELVES, WELL I USED TO BELIEVE THIS, BUT RECENT SCIENCE HAS SHOWED US THIS.

>>JEFF: NO, THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

JOHN MAYNARD KEYNES IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE SAID AT A HEARING, I THINK IN THE BRITISH PARLIAMENT OR SOMEWHERE, THAT HE WAS ASKED, HE WAS BEING GRILLED BECAUSE HE WAS TAKING A POSITION CONTRARY TO THE POSITION HE HAD TAKEN BEFORE, A YEAR OR TWO BEFORE AND HIS RESPONSE WAS, "WHEN THE FACTS CHANGE, I CHANGE MY OPINION, WHAT DO YOU DO, SIR?"

I THOUGHT THAT WAS A GREAT RESPONSE.

>>LORENE: AND THERE IS NO COMING BACK FROM THAT.

>>JEFF: RIGHT, RIGHT.

>>LORENE: OH, OF COURSE, I DO THAT, TOO.

YEAH.

WELL, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR THIS BOOK.

AGAIN, IT IS BREAKDOWN: LESSONS FOR A CONGRESS IN CRISIS .

I LEARNED SO MUCH ABOUT THE PROCESS OF GOVERNMENT AND IT IS AN EXCELLENT BOOK, THANK YOU.

>>JEFF: WELL THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: WILL YOU BE DOING ANYMORE WRITING OR ARE YOU GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE BREAK?

>>JEFF: WELL, I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING ELSE THAT I AM EXPECTING TO WRITE BUT YOU NEVER KNOW.

YOU SORT OF WAKE UP EVERY MORNING AND IF SOMETHING STRIKES YOU, YOU TRY TO WRITE IT DOWN.

>>LORENE: WELL GOOD, GOOD.

I AM JUST GRATEFUL FOR YOUR THIRTY YEARS OF SERVICE IN THE SENATE.

>>JEFF: WELL, THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: MAY YOU CONTINUE TO HELP US FIND OUR WAY THROUGH THIS DYSFUNCTIONAL TIME.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS FORMER SENATOR FROM NEW MEXICO, SENATOR JEFF BINGAMAN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, WILL YOU COME BACK AGAIN?

>>JEFF: OH, ANYTIME, ANYTIME YOU GIVE ME AN INVITE.

>>LORENE: WELL I HAVE TO STUDY THIS SOME MORE BECAUSE WE HAVE ONLY SCRATCHED THE TOP PART OF IT, THERE IS MUCH MORE WE NEED TO LEARN FROM THIS BOOK.

THANK YOU, SENATOR.

>>JEFF: THANK YOU, LORENE.

>>LORENE: AND I AM LORENE MILLS AND I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM