♪ > Welcome to a This Week In South Carolina Special Report, I'm Gavin Jackson.

And TWISC was in Washington last week as part of our push to cover more of our congressional delegation.

But politics being what they are, intervened.

And the federal government was shut down.

Despite our planning, House members were not in town as the shutdown fight lingered in the Senate.

But we had the opportunity to sit down with our Senior Senator Lindsey Graham, in a wide ranging interview.

So, Senator Graham, welcome to This Week In South Carolina .

Thanks for making time for us.

<Glad to do it.> We're in the middle of the federal government shutdown.

It's day seven.

We're recording this today on Tuesday, October 7th.

<Okay> Seven days into this federal government shutdown.

So what's it going to take to get a solution here to break the stalemate?

> Yeah.

Some common sense, I hope, will prevail.

What is this all about?

Well, there are some Obamacare subsidies that are going to expire at the end of the year.

This program was connected to Obamacare and Covid.

And if you're not on Medicaid or Medicare, there's some subsidies in the law to help with... pay Obamacare premiums that are going to go way up.

This program has been full of fraud.

Insurance companies get paid by the number of people they enroll.

Some of these people I don't think even exist.

CBO said, "Could be up to 1.4 million illegal immigrants."

But having said that, I'm willing to reform the program and keep some of it in place, but not by having a gun to our head about the government shutdown.

So to my Democratic colleagues, we're not gonna... tie these two together.

If it's health care today, it'll be something else tomorrow.

So let's open up the government, get a group of people working on dealing with the fraud issues, the reform issues, and run the place like, you know, we're adults.

So, I'm hoping that happens sooner, rather than later.

Because... it's going to begin to affect people at the airport and other places.

Gavin> Senator, to that end, when we talk about trying to make things move and get that solution, Democrats countered by saying, you know, "Put it in writing.

How will we get some sort of commitment here to make some moves with these subsidies?"

How can you guarantee that if everything kind of keeps moving?

Sen.

Graham> I can guarantee you that people on the Republican Party side want to reform this program and make it more efficient and less costly for the taxpayer.

It expires in December.

There's a bunch of us willing to do that.

This is just not the way.

If you start tying policy outcomes, to funding the government, it gets to be chaos.

We did this as Republicans.

So we shut the government down for 34 some, 34 days, I think trying to make Democrats build the wall.

Now, building the wall was popular some of these subsidies are popular, but it didn't work out for us, it's not gonna work out for them.

I just have learned let's don't take policy disputes and tie it to running the government, because there's, that's unending.

And the chaos is gonna show up.

People are gonna have a hard time getting through the airport.

There's some programs going to expire this week, and it really will begin to hurt people.

Gavin> Let's pivot to tariffs and inflation.

We're talking about costs.

That was a big issue when it came to the election.

Inflation remains stubborn.

Prices are still somewhat high.

The labor market is slowing.

There's concerns about stagflation.

Recession is not really a factor, but stagflation is.

I talked to Doctor Joey Von Nessen with USC recently, and he said that he called the economy "sluggish at this point."

How concerned are you about where things are going right now, and what do you think needs to be done to bring costs down and get a hold of inflation?

Sen.

Graham> I think it's a once in a lifetime opportunity to rebalance trade.

The tariffs sort of have a couple of purposes that make sense to me.

Mexico, if you're not helping us deal with the fentanyl poisoning of America and other countries, then we'll put tariffs on your products to get you to help.

That has really worked.

Canada is helping, Mexico is helping, other people are helping.

The threat of tariffs to deal with bad behavior has worked.

The threat of tariffs to get better trade deals has worked.

The deal with the European Union is a great deal for America and a really good deal for Europe.

It was only when Trump threatened tariffs that, that worked.

Now the other problem is if you just put tariffs on goods to raise money for the American Treasury, I think the world would pay a 10 to 15 percent surcharge to do business in America.

But you go much beyond that, then I think they'll retaliate and it could create inflation.

So three lanes, tariffs to change bad behavior.

Tariffs to break down, to get better trade deals, to break down unfair trade practices.

Like Australia would not buy American beef because it had GMOs.

Well that was kind of a... an unfair trade practice.

We all eat beef, we're fine.

Once he threatened tariffs against Australia, they changed their policy.

So that's all good.

But generally speaking, using tariffs to run the government to raise money to run the government has a limit to it and it could be inflationary.

Gavin> Okay.

But when we talk about that and the inflationary aspects of it and also look at the labor market, there too.

I mean, a lot of this is uncertainty tied to how the tariffs have been rolled out, how they've been implemented.

Businesses are having a hard time, wondering if they should be investing in America, even though that's been a big push for the president.

So how do we maybe make this a little bit more cohesive and uniform- Sen.

Graham> The more trade deals, the better because we now have certainty with Europe.

We're looking at doing trade deals with China, which is a big abuser of American trade.

And they steal our intellectual property.

They dump steel on the market below cost.

They do a bunch of things to deny us market share.

I want to use tariffs to get... Russia to the peace table.

An example of how tariffs could be effective, is start putting tariffs on countries that buy Russian oil and gas that keep Putin's war machine going.

The biggest offender is China.

China, Brazil, and India, are the three largest customers of Putin's... Russian oil or gas.

And Trump's gone after India.

And that's beginning to work.

Gavin> When's that going to actually take place?

I mean, we've been talking about this, but what's the hold up there?

Sen.

Graham> So he put a 25 percent tariff on India, for buying Russian oil.

He's talking about China, I talked to him yesterday.

I've got a bill to make Russia a state sponsor of terrorism under U.S.

law for kidnapping over 19,000, almost 20,000 Ukrainian kids.

My bill to authorize President Trump to put tariffs on people who buy Russian oil and gas has 85 votes.

And I want to pass that if I can, by the end of October to give him some juice, you know, some congressional blessing of what he's doing, which I think makes him stronger.

But Europe needs to step up.

They've sanctioned Russia to death, but they really haven't come after China or India.

I don't think you can solve this war in Ukraine until China helps more.

Gavin> We'll talk more about international affairs in a moment, because I know you have all the knowledge about that too.

But I want to talk more about economic development and investment.

We were talking about electric vehicle manufacturing, batteries and all the tangential suppliers related to that.

<Yeah> You were in Florence recently, campaigned there.

You were asked about AESC, the battery plant that's being built there.

It's a multibillion dollar investment.

<Yeah> When we look at that kind of money being thrown around and again, going back to the president wanting to bring those manufacturing jobs back to America.

But then you see this plant being paused because of tariff uncertainty.

And also the rescission bill when it comes to EV investment.

How do you, how do you bring manufacturing back when you have these issues?

Sen.

Graham> Well, so number one, we're becoming sort of a battery center for the EV world.

But the 7,500 dollar subsidy to buy an electrical vehicle skews the market.

Guess what?

When we did away with that tax credit to buy an electric vehicle, the price of an electric vehicle went down by 7,500 dollars.

So, what I want to do is make sure that you have choices.

If you want a battery car, electric car, you can have one.

If you want a hybrid, you can have one.

And our footprint in South Carolina is pretty impressive.

But I think you're going to see more hybrid... manufacturers where you'll have a combustible engine component plus a battery component.

I think that's probably going to be the bridge to to a bigger EV fleet.

Gavin> But are you concerned about what message it sends to the investment that's already kind of sunk their costs in somewhere?

Sen.

Graham> I think we need to send an honest message.

If you're going to build a battery plant, don't count on the 7,500 dollar... tax credit because that skews the economy.

But, I think President Trump, in terms of incentivizing people to come back to America, is actually working.

I hear a lot from the steel industry in South Carolina.

They feel more competitive.

He's relieving some of the tariffs on cars.

BMW, makes cars in Greenville, sells them all over the world.

I want American foreign manufacturers like BMW, who make the content in America, mostly and sell the car overseas to get a export credit against the tariffs.

<Okay> Because the goal is not only to get companies to come in to the country and come back, but create export opportunities, lower our trade imbalances.

So BMW is kind of a win-win there.

Gavin> So you are on the Judiciary Committee, ranking member there.

<Yeah> You're also on the Judiciary Subcommittee on Border Security and Immigration.

<Yes> Illegal immigration, a major issue everyone was talking about.

We're still talking about it.

We've seen border crossings, illegal border crossings dramatically decrease.

<Amazing> But we're also seeing a lot of aggressive enforcement tactics being taken place, in places like Los Angeles, now Chicago.

As a result of raids in Chicago, there have been more than a thousand arrests of immigrants.

But even American citizens and immigrants with legal status are getting swept up in these events.

So how do you characterize these tactics and raids?

Can this be done better to ensure that rights are guaranteed?

Sen Graham> Trying to find a balance or sweet spot, right?

So, the truth of the matter is we're going to need access to labor outside the country on rational terms like the agricultural industries, heavy immigrant workforce.

Why?

You just can't find the workers here, after you try.

I don't want any American or South Carolinian to lose their job because of some foreign work program.

But they'll come a point when you'll advertise in a meat-packing plant or agriculture, you know, some of the heavy, hard work industries that you just can't find the labor force.

Well bring in people outside the country who will work hard, pay taxes and do it right is a win-win.

Biden obliterated the border, there over 11 million people.

This thing started illegally- Going after gangs- And you do, you sweep some people up that are not, in that profile and they're still here illegally.

What I'm trying to do is make sure that we send the signals, that, "don't come here illegally."

It's not worth your time to slow down the inflow, trying to get a control of what's going on in the country, then move to a fix.

I've been working on this for years, and I talk to President Trump about it all the time.

We're declining population.

The birthrate in America is going down, and we're going to have a hard time, over time, having the labor force we need.

So rational immigration, that can be a win-win is the key.

The people who've been here a long time, who kept their nose clean and, you know, learn the language and get in back of the line.

I've always been open to that idea, but the point is, you got to control your border.

And sanctuary cities are magnets for future illegal immigration.

Like Chicago, there are over 100,000 illegal immigrants in Chicago.

Now, why is that bad for South Carolina?

Any time you have major sanctuary cities in America, it sends a signal throughout the world, "If you can get to one of these cities, you're okay."

Well, that puts pressure on the immigration system.

You'll never have legal immigration reform until you convince people in America that you can control your border, and you can control illegal immigration.

Once you convince them of that, I think we're a fair-minded people, then you can move to legal immigration.

Part of this, ICE, these raids, are to make sure that people who use cheap illegal immigrant labor, the employers, they have to pay a price.

So, but I am looking for balance.

I don't want it to go to the point that, you know, the tactics get to be, you know, so disruptive that you know, it traumatizes people unnecessarily.

Gavin> Some would say it's already kind of happening though.

Sen.

Graham> Yeah.

To some extent, we'll see.

I don't know how you fix this problem without disruption.

11 million people came across the border in four years.

That's twice the size of South Carolina.

We got to get a grip on it.

So the reason it's disruptive is because there's such a major problem.

The best way to have avoided this is to control your border.

So, you can talk about Trump and ICE all you want.

he's dealing with a mess that he inherited.

And the sooner we can control our immigration flow, the sooner we can move to a rational legal immigration system, that's a win-win.

And I've been trying that for years.

Gavin> Definitely have, sir.

But when we talk about, you know, warrants and needing to have it done legally, I mean, are there any concerns you know, what it might be doing to rights... our constitutional rights- Sen.

Graham> Well, you know, if you're here illegally, you know, you've broken our law.

You can't have it both- Once you obliterate the border and literally have twice the size of South Carolina come in here illegally, you're going to have to match that, with an equal effort.

We had mass illegal immigration.

We're going to have, have to have mass deportation to get back to balance.

This whole system is out of balance.

And the only way you're going to get it back in balance is to enforce the law and control your border.

Gavin> Senator, the FBI just released a document showing that Special Prosecutor Jack Smith, as part of Operation Arctic Frost, the investigation into the January 6th riot, obtained data about senator's phones, including yours, <Yeah> from January 4th through January 7th in 2021.

That data shows, when and to whom a call was made, as well as the duration and general location of that call, but it does not include the content of the call.

Sen.

Graham> That's what they say.

Gavin> Okay, what can you tell us about this?

What have you been made aware of?

Sen.

Graham> I got a call yesterday, from the FBI.

I was, like, floored.

I'm the Chairman of the Judiciary in January the Fourth through the Seventh.

We're trying to figure out, how should I vote to certify the election?

I wound up voting to certify the election, but I had a duty, like every other senator, to find out the best they could, what happened?

This is pretty chilling.

You know, from the time that President Trump announced in September of 2022, that he's going to run for president, he had five... efforts by different jurisdictions to indict and prosecute him.

I'm convinced, if he had never run for president again, that none of this would have happened.

Now, in 2023, they get eight United States Senators- The FBI under Jack Smith, apparently issues a subpoena to my, phone carrier wanting to know who I called, where I was at, and how long it lasted.

That bothers the heck out of me.

Whether you like me or not, that's not the issue.

I'm in a separate branch of government.

There's a check and balance process here.

That, this is really unnerving.

Gavin> But it was pretty unprecedented what happened on January 6th, too.

So, I mean, wasn't that- Sen.

Graham> Yeah... Gavin> To get that data, isn't that just part of an investigation, that they- Sen.

Graham> No, no, it's not, it's not okay to, seize the phone records of... existing United States Senator who has a constitutional duty to, vote to certify the election.

I'm the Judiciary Chairman, should I hold hearings?

No, it's not okay at all.

Not at all.

And I don't know what happened, but we're going to get to the bottom of it.

And if it's an abuse of the Constitution, I will sue.

Gavin> Talking more about... troops and enforcement <Yeah> and Department of Justice, we saw, National Guard troops have been deployed to U.S.

cities, even here in Washington DC, we see them out and about milling around a little bit.

Are you concerned at all when it comes to, you know, how this could be a slippery slope into something else?

There are people who are concerned that this could be turned into a way for the president to seize more power, in a sense, and invade cities and control cities.

<Yeah> Is that... is there any credence to that?

Are you concerned about that?

Sen.

Graham> I'm okay with what's going on because I live here, when I'm not at home.

This is my work site, and I can tell you it's better... going around Washington than it's been in the last, long time.

Chicago is a sanctuary city with over 100,000 illegal immigrants.

Now, what does that matter?

If a city is a sanctuary city, as I said before, it becomes a magnet.

So I'm glad we're dealing with this.

I, you know, I hate the fact it got this much out of control.

But the National Guard, if they can help expedite cleaning up this mess... good.

But generally speaking, no, I don't want to use troops in furtherance of law enforcement... functions, as for law enforcement.

But this is, this is different.

I think, the amount of drugs being trafficked into our country is, is a national security threat.

Blowing up the boats... Venezuela.

I told President Trump, right after he got elected "Do me a favor, look at these drug cartels as enemies of the United States."

They're killing more people than anybody.

The fentanyl coming across the border, a lot of it originates in the Caribbean and Venezuela and they're really at war with the American people.

Drug trafficking, human trafficking- Why shouldn't we treat these drug cartels, as national security threats, foreign terrorist organizations and use military force?

Every one of these boats, we believe, has drugs, bound for America that will kill Americans.

So stop them.

So I'm all for that.

Gavin> And when we talk about that, we're going to talk about international affairs as we wrap up and I appreciate your time, sir.

We hear the president say things like, "the enemy from within the country," and then people are again- Kind of going back to my previous question about using the National Guard troops to quell any violence that might not just be run of the mill violence in some ways.

But now we're throwing troops on the streets.

Sen.

Graham> Unlike... I don't know of anybody being put in jail for not liking Trump.

I know a lot of people that, that were around Trump, I wound up spending a million dollars to defend myself in Georgia for making phone calls to find out whether or not I needed to certify the election, so.

That kind of falls on deaf ears.

But we live in dangerous times.

And, you know, try to find the balance.

Gavin> To that end, we're speaking on the second anniversary of the Hamas invasion of Israel.

We're heading into the third year.

The cease ceasefire talks are loosely in process right now.

They're optimistic.

Trump says the deal's not too far away, which is promising.

<I hope> Do you believe a deal can be struck, a lasting deal?

Sen.

Graham> I don't know.

I Hope.

So what would make it lasting?

If Hamas disarms, if they don't disarm, they'll do it again.

Now, October 7th was two years ago, today.

We're doing this on Tuesday.

What people forget... it's not just the brutality, why did they film it?

Why did they want a record of their brutal assault, killing children and raping women?

They wanted to drive a wedge between Israel and the Arab world so that Saudi Arabia couldn't recognize Israel.

Iran's biggest nightmare, is if the Arabs and the Israelis make peace, leaving them behind.

Hamas is funded by Iran, almost completely even though they're a Sunni group.

I think the attack of October 7th was generated to stop normalization, that was very close to happening.

This was on Biden's watch.

I went to Riyadh and Jerusalem eight times with Tony Blinken and the entire Biden team, Brett McGurk, Jake Sullivan trying to build on the Abraham Accords to get Saudi Arabia to recognize Israel, which would be the effective end of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

It would have been a great success story.

I tried to help President Biden and his team, October the 7th was designed to stop that.

There was actually going to be an announcement of the framework of normalization by the end of October of 2023.

And it was designed to do what it did, to drive a wedge.

Support for a two-state solution is really low in Israel.

And the Arab world is inflamed because all they see on TV is kids being killed in Gaza.

So I'm going to try to reengage with President Trump.

Once Hamas is eliminated, I hope there will be a deal where the hostages are released and Israel moves back.

But Israel cannot withdraw until there's a commitment of Hamas to disarm.

Gavin> And if they don't, at that point, would you say it's- Sen.

Graham> Finish them off.

Finish them off.

I'm hoping and praying we can do this in two steps.

The hostages come out, then we can talk about a Palestinian Gaza, West Bank minus Hamas.

They disarm, they're no longer a threat, the Palestinian people of Israel.

If we can't pull that off, then let Israel finish Hamas off.

You can't have peace in the Mideast with Hezbollah still in being.

Gavin> So we're going to see how that plays out.

<Yeah> But, Senator, we have a hot war on the European continent with Europe, with Russia invading Ukraine.

It's been three and a half years now.

We see Russia now messing with NATO airspace.

At what point, do they, does NATO hit back?

I mean, when- Sen.

Graham> That's a really good question.

These drones are unarmed at this point, but they're very provocative.

I think Putin is going to go as far as he can until somebody stops him.

He's the aggressor, not Ukraine.

I don't blame Ukraine, I blame Putin.

In the mid '90s, the Ukrainians gave up 1,700 nuclear weapons they had in Ukraine as part of the old Soviet Union, when the, the Soviet Union collapsed.

They agreed to give those weapons to Russia, with a promise to honor their sovereignty.

The British, the French and the Russians made that deal.

Putin broke that deal.

He's invaded Ukraine twice.

I think he wants to gobble up as much of Ukraine as he can because it's minerally rich.

And, he has ambitions to recreate the Russian Empire.

I'm very pleased that President Trump is giving Ukraine long-range weapons to increase the cost of Putin to prosecute the war.

President Trump is putting tariffs on India, but we all need to up our game when it comes to China.

I don't think you're going to end this war until you get China to help.

And the more pressure we can put on China, the better.

Gavin> And I was gonna ask you more about China, but we don't have to get too much into it- Sen.

Graham> We'll do it again.

Gavin> You do see these alliances growing, but people give you a hard time for doing so much international, you're so involved in international affairs.

What do you say to those critics back home who say "he doesn't focus enough on South Carolina?"

Sen.

Graham> Yeah, I'm focused a lot on South Carolina.

I would say, "Remember 9/11."

When you take your eye off the ball, you pay a price.

If we could go back in time, what would we have done differently before 9/11?

We'd pay more attention to the build up of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

If you think Al-Qaeda is done with us, you're not living in the real world.

If you think ISIS won't come back, if they can get here, you're not living in a real world.

So here's what I would tell anybody... My job is to take care of South Carolina's interest in Washington, but also to take care of the nation's interest.

As long as I'm a United States Senator, we're going to keep the war over there, the best we can, so it doesn't come here again.

We're going to hit them before they hit us.

They're homicidal maniacs.

So they're not going to stop fighting you because you're tired of fighting them.

The good news is, we're making partnerships over there, where we have to do less of the fighting.

We haven't lost one soldier in Ukraine.

We're helping Ukraine.

When it comes to the Mideast, there's a new Mideast emerging where they're willing to do the fighting with our help.

So I would say this.

"If you want America to be safe, make sure Al-Qaeda and ISIS never get a chemical or a nuclear device that could attack our country."

And the best way to do that is disrupt them over there before they get here.

Yeah, I do a lot of things.

I help expand the Port of Charleston.

I was the Budget Chairman that passed the "One Big Beautiful Bill" with the tax cuts and money for the military and the border.

But one thing I'm proud of and I'll never back off on, is understanding the threats of the world, to make sure they don't come back to our shores.

As long as I'm your senator, I'm going to spend some time watching them over there to protect us here.

Gavin> And that being said, and wrapping up here.

You're 70 years old, you're running for your fifth term.

What motivates you?

And you kind of just put a button on it right there.

But, what's driving you to keep running, to keep serving?

Sen.

Graham> I think I'm better at my job today than I've ever been.

I talked to Bibi all weekend about what does he need to get this deal done?

I've become a very close friend of the President of the United States.

We're gonna play golf this weekend.

There's very few people in the world I don't know that matter to us, that I can't pick up a phone call and talk to.

When it comes to home, I was the Budget Chairman.

I was able to, to help get the bill through the Senate because I know how the Senate works.

When there's a problem at home, I think I'm in good position to fix it.

When we have a problem at the Port of Charleston, I can work with Democrats to help us.

I've tried to reach across the aisle to solve problems.

Kavanaugh... Think I had a big impact on getting us a conservative Supreme Court.

I think I'm better at my job, today than I've ever been.

I feel fine, but there will come a day when my time is up.

And... I'll tell you right now, as far as I'm concerned, I'm more able to do my job, I am better at it than any time since I've been in the job, because I've worked hard to learn what works and what doesn't.

And I like it.

I like it more today.

I like... being able to shape the future of our state and our country.

And if people will honor me with six more years, I'll make sure I don't let them down.

Senator Graham, Thank you, so much.

Sen.

Graham> Thank you.

Gavin> You can find that interview at youtube.com/@SouthCarolinaNews That's our new home for all of our news content.

And of course, you can always follow the South Carolina Lede podcast wherever you find podcasts.

For South Carolina ETV, I'm Gavin Jackson in Washington.

Be well South Carolina.

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