Welcome back.

Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell is here on the auto strike and the possible U.S. government shutdown.

Our lead story is the auto strike and Mr. Trump to visit UAW strikers on the our panel this week, Zachary Gorchow, Paula Gardner and Bill Ballenger sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the record.

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And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thanks very much.

Welcome to our program.

We are taping on Thursday afternoon and so lots of stuff will happen after the show is out and everything we say here will be irrelevant.

But we're going to put a show in that can bring us up to speed on the auto strike.

Any glimmer of hope that an agreement is close?

Not not to them.

Not to us.

No, not to the rest of the world.

Inside the negotiating rooms, possibly.

We don't know.

We'll find out on Friday as we sit here whether the strike will be extended.

And, you know, as I said, we have no idea.

How is this playing out?

Well, for now, because it's limited to three plants and only one in the state of Michigan.

It's not the kind of Armageddon scenario of like all three companies being struck by the UAW and almost 150,000 workers going on strike.

That was the nightmare kind of scenario people were thinking about.

So the UAW has been very strategic.

Pick these three plants to start with high priority vehicles.

I think to Paula's point, the big question is, do they expand the stand up strike, as they're calling it?

Do more more workers walk out from other plants on strike?

And then what does that mean?

So right now, I think it's in some ways a curiosity for those of us not involved directly.

Obviously, it's matter of critical importance to the workers themselves.

I only think if it starts to expand as that political dimension, take on a stronger component.

But beyond the political dimension, the economic impact is already spreading.

So we've got each of the automakers has laid off additional workers.

We've got suppliers, including in Michigan, panicking, and they are very worried, especially two tier, second tier, third tier suppliers who basically have no bankability, they can't get loans.

They're wondering how they'll be able to stretch things out.

They may only have one customer among the big three.

They may only make one part for those those vehicles.

And that's a real question mark right now from Michigan Bill.

Previous auto strikes in our beloved state have not had draconian implications beyond the bargaining table.

This one, a lot of people are framing as to the future of the auto industry as we know it today is really on the table, too.

Right?

I think it is.

And I hate to sound pessimistic, but I think it's likely the strike is going to be extended.

I think there are going to be more layoffs.

I think the ripple effect into the suppliers and so forth that we've just been hearing about is going to be pronounced in the electric vehicle issue.

As part of all this going on is really key.

And you know how the UAW can absorb that.

And we already know Shawn Fein is withheld support for President Biden of the UAW, support for President Biden, because they're very, very worried about the future of autoworkers with an electric vehicle economy, particularly when you bring in the south where you've got nonunion plants, you know, it's a potential disaster economically down the road if this isn't somehow resolved, not just in the bargaining now, but going forward.

Some have suggested the Tesla's the real winner here.

Tesla already won when you look at the top ten EV sales in the nation first half of this year, the top two were Tesla's with a combined 320,000 units and the closest of the closest big three maker on the list then is number three with 24,000.

That's the gap is enormous.

So let's do the math.

If these autoworkers picketing now, get more money for the autoworkers that are making batteries, the competitive price between Tesla and the American vehicle goes wider.

It's it's like it is sort of this precipice moment.

The workers are looking back and saying, hey, wait a minute, we gave up a lot during the Great Recession.

And, you know, hey, don't go.

But, you know, Detroit three automakers don't go starting these new plants that aren't union organized.

But, you know, we've seen in the last few years in Michigan, you know, Ford, GM, they are willing to go to nonunion states and places and invest mass and countries and invest massive amounts of money.

And these are not union organized places.

So it really does feel like there's some kind of a tipping point here.

Will the management decide to do what they used to do in some ways, which was we got to keep, you know, labor happy.

And if it means maybe we've overpaid down the road, we'll deal with it.

Or do they say, no, we're we're not going to make the mistakes we did in the past.

But broadening it, I think where the US is going to have to ask itself as a result of this strike, what are we willing to accept for manufacturing?

So if we're comparing to Tesla, their production workers are also making about $20 an hour, the $20 an hour that we're fighting in Michigan, we're watching a fight to increase.

So, you know, is it a race to the bottom then?

Do we still value manufacturing in the same way?

And even policy wise, the nation and the state is subsidizing it.

And also, to your point about the politics of this story, Donald Trump is really on this issue and here's what's going on there.

This he tried to exploit this auto strike.

And of course, he is he tends to try to exploit everything that he can.

When former President Donald Trump comes to Michigan later this month to meet with striking UAW workers, he will not have to worry very much about getting an audience as 46% of all union members, including those from the UAW, are supporting Mr. Trump in Michigan.

But if you're President Joe Biden, Michigan pollster Bernie Porn asserts that he should be concerned because he was elected last time with strong union support.

But that support now is not there at the levels that it needs to be according to Mr. Plan.

And now with that at risk, Mr. Biden could lose this election if UAW workers don't come home.

That is, I think, entirely possible.

Part of Mr. Trump's UAW support released to his opposition to the president's push for more electric vehicles, which Mr. Trump says will cost UAW members their jobs.

And while the Biden administration is pushing a counterargument to create more UAW jobs by building EV batteries in Michigan and elsewhere, current assembly line jobs, however, could be lost while they're waiting for those new jobs to come online.

Right, Mr. Plant?

That is, I believe, a problem.

That's why he needs to try and come up with some messaging that talks about transitioning and getting the cooperation of the Big Three and doing that.

Meanwhile, the UAW president fired off a news release calling Mr. Trump a millionaire and adding this He doesn't really have any understanding as to what it's like to live paycheck to paycheck and yet there's another challenge for Democrats, assuming that these strikers do get higher salaries for those who create the EV batteries that will increase the cost of those cars compared to the lower sticker price on the Tesla EVs produced by nonunion workers.

Yeah, these are all concerns that have to be worked out.

And if the Democrats don't work this out, they could have a heap of problems next Election Day in 2024.

So, Mr. Ballenger, has Mr. Trump scooped the issue away from the DS?

Absolutely, at least for the time being.

Now, Debbie Dingell, I've heard her on national shows and she says, no, it's not a problem for Democrats.

We can handle this.

But she whistling through the graveyard.

I think she is right now.

Look, Trump is a master at seizing on particular issues and exploiting them to the max.

And it's obvious that he has seized on these as a bugbear that is going to kill the Michigan economy in the national economy.

And he's coming into Michigan and he's going to wreak havoc.

And the real question is, who is he going to meet with these UAW workers?

I like to see who they are.

They better be careful.

But that's going to be an interesting session.

And what kind of publicity is going to come out of that?

I mean, it's the fall of 2023.

I just can't unless this turns into a total meltdown in a year, they're still on strike or something like that.

I just don't think this is ultimately going to amount to much.

Does it get Trump some news cycles?

Yes.

Do the Democrats appear to be on the defensive a little bit with this?

Yes, they do.

And you look, Trump went from winning Macomb County by 12 points in 2016 to about eight points in 2020.

He had these kinds of people who are out on strike.

These are some of the votes he lost.

He needs to get back and it could help at the margins.

But there's just so much to go before this.

This is really.

With all due respect, this issue is not going away.

Let's assume they've resolved the strike.

You still got a plant going down in Marshall, which is causing a controversy.

You've got a plant going in big rapids.

Look at the Republicans will ride this thing as long and as hard as they can to keep it alive.

Well, you.

See what's in the past, the Republicans would have come in big on the side of business here and said they are just the UAW is trying to destroy the economy.

Union bosses, we would have heard all that, haven't heard a peep about that, which is, again, a sign of how much things have changed.

They're sympathizing with the workers, but then saying this is Joe Biden's fault that the strike is happening, which is really an interesting pivot from where the Republicans have been historically.

And I find the Donald Trump situation pretty interesting, too.

Not a political insider, but he's he's he's made his name by speaking for people who feel like they have lost something.

And many of these autoworkers feel that way.

However, they're also working a different side of it right now with the negotiations.

And it doesn't seem like you can logically even find a place.

Now, this is a perfect issue for the Republicans because it's a12 punch.

Punch one is the VS, the second punch is the money for EVs is going to.

You know what, communist China, huh?

Yeah, absolutely.

You know, you're absolutely right.

I think that's exactly what Trump is explaining.

Debbie Dingell, when I've heard her, this is the congresswoman from down river.

She said, you know, down river.

She has said that basically what's happened is that the I'm washed my train of my fault.

Lenny, basically, she thinks they can get their way out of this thicket.

They can they can figure this out and it's a long term problem.

And the Democrats will be on top and people won't understand.

I don't know.

It's it's an interesting again, for the Democrats where they struggle with this environment and worker divide.

It's been a, you know, issue for them for a long time.

And the one hand, you know, climate stopped, climate change, cleaner vehicles and so forth.

But on the other hand, it takes fewer workers to produce an electric vehicle, electric vehicles cost a ton more, which, again, kind of goes against their old working class base, a base the Republicans are peeling votes away from.

So it it creates some challenges for them, but and some new opportunities for Republicans.

But again, I don't believe the 2024 election is going to be decide.

When I was going to say is that Debbie Dingell believes that Donald Trump was the worst president we ever had because he sent jobs to China.

That's the argument she claims the Democrats are going to be able to make to refute everything that Trump is trying to exploit right now.

Now, whether she's able to do that or not, that remains to be seen when.

We do know in this state that China does resonate as a political issue.

Yes, Jennifer Gray.

Yeah, absolutely.

Ask Mark Brewer.

Acidic divorce.

Yes, absolutely.

Long time ago, 18 years ago, Democrats tried both sides have tried the China card.

Since then, it hasn't had nearly the potency as it did in 2000.

I think it's.

Lost some of its own.

I think it's it's not the nickel.

It's use the old John Engler thing.

I think he wants to have this on the show.

It's not a potent issue.

It once was.

I mean, look, Buick makes cars in China.

All three, big three make cars in China.

It is it is not as potent.

Yes, it is still something that you can use and, you know, take some shots at for sure.

GM sells more cars in China than they do in the US and also more Chinese.

Chinese automakers are expected to come to the US and possibly Michigan, not just suppliers, but there are a lot of startups in the Ivy world.

Has the governor been very vocal on all of this?

Not a.

No.

No.

Have you noticed at all she was very quiet.

Why do you think?

Because she's pushing this every green energy agenda and a lot of that is meeting a lot.

Of resent gets the last word.

Go ahead.

Oh, I will say they do not want to talk about the jobs are losing.

It's like the push for education, the push for for training, the push for all of that and the new jobs that require more training, blah, blah, blah.

It's all a smokescreen for all the jobs are losing or could lose.

All right.

Let's go to our interview with Debbie Dingell.

Hi.

We are pleased to welcome back to the off the record program.

Ms.. Dingell, first of all, thank you for doing this.

Let's cut right to the chase.

You were recently quoted as calling the White House with a complaint on how they were handling this auto strike.

What was your beef, Madam Congresswoman?

Well, with what was reported was perhaps something that I said not thinking it would be written about.

I communicated to President Fein that I had been surprised at what the president had said on Labor Day, because I did believe that we could be where we are now and we are looking at a strike in the United Auto Workers against all three companies.

What kind of grades would you give the White House on handling this situation to date?

Look, quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of everybody asking what the White House is doing.

This is a bargaining negotiating table between the companies and the employees.

The president should not be intervening in this strike.

I think all of us, policymakers, Republicans and Democrats, need to understand what policies can help have a competitive auto industry, make sure the workers are being supported and being paired off, paid a fair wage, which they are, you know, 2008 in 2009, everybody gave to help save this industry.

It's now we need to level the field for the workers, make sure they're being paid for the jobs that they're doing, that they're not having to work overtime.

The people are getting the cola that they lost in 2008 and 2009.

But quite frankly, I don't think we I think all presidential candidates should be staying out of this actual negotiation off the table.

And we need to understand, okay, what do we need to do to make sure we stay about 20 auto.

Industry listening to what kind of marks would you give the White House on handling the strike?

I mean, they're not handling the strike game.

That's my first thing.

But two, the president has talked to all sides but made it clear last Friday that he was standing with the workers.

Mr. Engel, all the politicians, including you, have been rushing to the defense of the UAW picketers.

But once you were a General Motors lobbyist in Washington, DC back in the day before you were elected to public office.

So what about General Motors and the big three in this situation?

Are they the villains or are they the bad guys?

You know, Bill, I've been very careful.

If you listen to my language, I want people to understand what the workers are fighting for, what they gave in 2008 and 2009.

And quite frankly, it was management mismanagement because what happened in 2008 and 2009 and nobody wanted to see them go bankrupt, but those workers gave up their cola.

And in real terms today they're making with inflation and they're making less money than they made in 2008 and 2009.

So they want their cola back.

You've got two years now online where you've got people doing the exact same stuff that are making significant, significant difference and the two salaries that they're making and they want job security.

I want a competitive auto industry.

If we don't have a competitive domestic auto industry, they're not going to be jobs for them to work at.

But it is the workers have a right to have these issues addressed.

And that's what this is about.

Congresswoman, what about this, the 32 hour workweek concept?

There's some pieces that, as I've read this from afar, that some hours.

And so this is just a bridge too far or is that kind of the next wave of worker reforms and that sort of thing to go to something like a 32 hour workweek?

What do you make of a proposal like that?

I think present chain put out as you do what he said publicly is what happens at the beginning of any labor negotiation.

And by the way, what you're hearing at that table isn't not similar to what we are all hearing by a lot of people.

You know, I, quite frankly, think people should still be in offices as we come out of the pandemic and a lot of people want to work from home.

I think you've got to have these discussions at the table between the management and the workers and figure out where that common ground is so that you get the job done, deliver a good product, but recognize that the worker is still the backbone of success.

What among the what the workers are asking for, do you think pushes it too far for competitiveness for the automakers and might put them at risk of bankruptcy or acquisition in the next few years?

I'm not going to I'm not going to bargain at a table as much as I love you all and off the record and all of you, I'm not going to bargain for them at the table.

These are real.

I'm not in that room either.

I'm not at the table.

They're looking at financial figures.

They're talking to each other.

I know that the UAW knows.

So got to have companies that are in business.

They don't want to drive sales to other companies, to companies that aren't paying a decent wage and are building cars that are too expensive for anybody to afford.

So that I'm not in that room and I'm not going to give you those concerns.

What about the jobs bank that the UAW wants back?

Can you explain what that is?

And is that a reasonable request?

Again, it's not the jobs banks.

What you and I were showing that we're seasoned is something that was there a while ago.

They are trying to keep community strong and talk about if someone is displaced or needs something, is there a way for them to get back in the community or stay in the community again?

They're talking about it at the table.

I'm not in the room.

I'm not going to get into the details.

I can explain to people what these key issues are and the three issues that absolutely matter.

And you and you must ask are cola, tears and job security.

Ms. TINGLE Did Mr. did Mr. Trump did Mr. Trump scoop the Democrats on the issue?

What does that mean?

Scoop I don't think.

He's taken ownership of that issue when he is making hay and he's coming into this state and you guys look like you're playing defense it tell me if I'm wrong.

Let me be very clear.

I've been very clear that we are it's not either or.

We've got to do both.

We've got to worry about the environment.

Look at the floods, the tornadoes.

We just had a michigan.

Stand that the question was didn't.

Have to build electric vehicles.

So he says we're going to build them 100% in time.

Nobody's arguing about that.

I'm asking you, did Mr. Trump take this issue away from him?

Did not.

And he did not take it away from us.

So what he's doing is being A.B.

right now, we are competing in a competitive global marketplace in Europe.

More than half the sales are alternative fuels, mostly electric vehicles, by the way, we're selling in that market.

So Donald Trump's not fighting to do it here, doesn't think we should be doing it.

Do you remember how many of you were around?

And I think most of us were when Japan beat us because the domestic auto industry wasn't ahead of the curve, didn't see what the product demand was going to be.

And we weren't ready to build small cars.

And we took a beating then.

Well, we can't take a beating.

We've got to be ready to build those electric vehicles now, and we have to make sure that we're doing it in a competitive way.

And we've got to make sure that as we transition to the vehicles of the future, the worker is part of that.

And we have to make sure the companies are competitive.

Do you think the.

UAW will eventually endorse President Biden?

The UAW endorsed Joe Biden.

You know, Bill, I don't know.

I'm not going to speculate.

Right now.

They're focused on getting the deal for the workers.

They're focused on the discussions between them themselves and the companies keep they've made it very clear how they feel about Donald Trump and that he would be another Trump term would be a disaster.

You go from.

There, Congresswoman.

Are you encouraging leadership and other Democrats in the legislature to adjourn the legislature for the year earlier than usual so that the earlier presidential primary law will take effect in time?

Yes, I've had continued discussions with the governor's office and the legislature.

It's been a 40 year fight to have a heartland state be part of the early primaries.

Our issues really reflect the issues that determine what the presidential outcome is.

Our legislature and others promised the DNC if Michigan got moved up early that we would meet that date.

I am not that discussions are ongoing in Lansing between all about what's going to happen, but I do believe and it is critical that this is bad.

Carl Levin started it.

Some of you will remember that the first ten years we can't change the rules in the middle of the game.

We've worked very hard to get to this point.

The two small states like New Hampshire and Iowa should not have the disproportionate impact they do on nominating presidential candidates.

And I think it's good for the Republican Party and I think it's good for the Democratic Party.

When we took it on it in the last few times, the Republicans and the Democrats did this together.

We all support it.

But national Republican Party this time, because they have a very complicated political situation, did their rules earlier than the DNC did in the long term?

This is going to be a win for the country because we're going to be talking about issues that matter to everyday people.

And in 2028, there will be a heartland state that is in the early states that reflect the issues that matter in the November election.

The legislature is going to adjourn early.

Is that what you're saying?

I don't know, Bill.

I know that we're going to have a presidential primary.

The DNC was told by leadership we will have a presidential primary in February, the date that we now know.

You feel that if for that to happen, for the legislature to make good on the promises you said was made that they need to adjourn early, do what it takes to make it happen.

I don't tell the legislature what to do.

I'm not I don't get into their business.

Then I'll get into mine.

We all worked hard to have a state like Michigan.

And by the way, I'm going to tell you that Michigan business supported this strongly as you need to and others did, because they know how important it is to have presidential candidates talking about everyday issues that matter to people like us in the heartland, which have a diversity of all kinds of issues from manufacturing to farming.

I'm going to take it back to the strike.

That's all I'm thinking about right now.

What I'm saying, public support was 50 some percent possibly to decline.

The longer it goes and the further it reaches, the Democrats still stand behind the union at that point.

And where where does that go?

Okay.

Could you restate that?

I think if public support diminishes for the union, what happens politically among Democrats?

Look, I know that I don't take I've never been a person that takes a stand because of the way the wind blows.

What I do is to do what I think is right.

And I think that you will see Republicans supporting me.

You need to just for the record, and some of them are in Michigan.

I'm going to stand for the workers and the issues that I just laid out and I want to I hope it's not a long strike.

I think the strike is going to remind people about the importance of the auto industry and that we're still the backbone of the American economy.

But I'm not a person who goes with the political wind.

I'm someone who stands up for what's right on all sides.

Congresswoman, you have agreed to do it over time with her.

So let's just take a pause right here.

We'll look at cruise credits and we'll be back more with this inquisition, excuse me with questions for you in just a little bit.

Okay.

Inquisition is a good word.

Thank you for also joining our program.

We'll see you next week right here for more off the record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

Learn more at martinwaymire.com.

For more off the record, visit wkar.org.

Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of off the record.