>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE REFUSED TO BE BYSTANDERS TO FURTHER SUFFERING AND TO THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

>> PRESSURE MOUNTS ON ISRAEL AS THE UK, FRANCE, AND CANADA ANNOUNCE SANCTIONS ON ILLEGAL WEST BANK SETTLEMENTS.

I SPEAK TO FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, EHUD OLMERT.

> >> THEN, PURGES AT THE PENTAGON.

DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH TIGHTENS HIS GRIP AT HOME AS AMERICA WAGES WAR ABROAD.

FORMER AIR FORCE SECRETARY FRANK KENDALL JOINS ME.

> >> PLUS -- >> THIS IS GOING TO BE A REALLY TRANSLATABLE TECHNOLOGY ACROSS MANY DIFFERENT INFECTIONS.

>> A BREAKTHROUGH IN THE FIGHT AGAINST CANCER.

THE CHAIRMAN AND CO-FOUNDER OF MODERNA JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HOW A NEW mRNA VACCINE COULD STOP MELANOMA FROM RETURNING, AND HOW IT MIGHT BE USED TO TREAT OTHER CANCERS.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --/ THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ISRAEL IS FACING MOUNTING PRESSURE FROM SOME OF ITS LONG-STANDING ALLIES.

BRITAIN, FRANCE, AND CANADA HAVE ANNOUNCED THIS WEEK SWEEPING SANCTIONS ON TRADE WITH ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

IT IS A DRAMATIC SHIFT WITH THE BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY ACCUSING ISRAELI SETTLERS OF, QUOTE, ETHNIC CLEANSING AGAINST THE PALESTINIANS LIVING THERE.

ISRAEL HAS RESPONDED ANGRILY, ORDERING THE CLOSURE OF THE BRITISH CONSULATE IN JERUSALEM, BUT THAT ANGER SEEMS NOT TO BE SHARED BY ITS CLOSEST ALLY, THE UNITED STATES, WHICH HAS YET TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THE SANCTIONS OR EVEN SAY ANYTHING PUBLICLY.

AND IT COMES AS THE REALITY ON THE GROUND BECOMES HARDER TO IGNORE.

THE U. N. SAYS SETTLER VIOLENCE IS NOW AT UNPRECEDENTED LEVELS.

WHILE IN THE FIRST THREE MONTHS OF THIS YEAR, MORE PALESTINIANS WERE DISPLACED FROM THEIR HOMES THAN IN ALL OF LAST YEAR.

AND THERE IS GROWING PRESSURE FROM INSIDE ISRAEL TOO.

THIS SUMMER, DOZENS OF PROMINENT FIGURES SIGNED A LETTER DEMANDING ACTION TO ERADICATE JEWISH TERRORISM, AS THEY SAID, IN THE WEST BANK.

AMONG THEM WAS THE FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER EHUD OLMERT, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM TEL AVIV.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM, PRIME MINISTER.

SO CAN I START, PLEASE WITH YOUR REACTION - - >> GOOD EVENING, CHRISTIANE.

>> TO THE SANCTIONS.

OF COURSE, YOUR GOVERNMENT HAS RESPOND VERY ANGRILY SAY THAT EVERYTHING THESE COUNTRIES ARE SAYING IS A LIE.

DO YOU FEEL THAT YOUR COUNTRY IS FACING AN UNPRECEDENTED LEVEL OF PRESSURE OVER SOME OF ITS ACTIONS?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TO SAY HOW MUCH I DON'T LIKE TO, BUT I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT WHAT THE SECRETARY IS SAYING IS PRECISELY WHAT I SAY AND MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES AND FRIENDS AND CONCERNED ISRAELI CITIZENS SAID OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS, BLAMING THE GROUP, A LARGE GROUP OF ISRAELI SETTLERS IN WHAT WE CALLED AN EFFORT OF ETHNIC CLEANSING AGAINST PALESTINIANS LIVING IN THE WEST BANK.

WE ALMOST DAILY ATROCITIES CARRIED OUT AGAINST INNOCENT PEOPLE, BURNING AND SHOOTING PEOPLE IN THEIR HOMES, IN THEIR FIELDS, EVERYWHERE THEY CAN FIND THEM.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT CAN'T BE IGNORED AND CAN'T BE FORGIVEN.

AND THEREFORE I'M NOT SURPRISED AT THE STATEMENT MADE BY SECRETARY MILLIBAN AND THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY GREAT BRITAIN.

HOW EFFECTIVE IT WILL BE, I DON'T KNOW TO SAY.

DEFINITELY UNTIL THE COMING ELECTIONS, THIS GOVERNMENT WILL DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE IN ORDER TO DEFEND ITSELF AND ACCUSE, OF COURSE, GREAT BRITAIN, FRANCE, CANADA, AND ANY OTHER WHO WILL JOIN IN WITH ANTI-SEMITISM AND THE HATRED OF JEWS AND THIS OF COURSE IS NONSENSE.

WE IN ISRAEL, THE FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF OF ISRAELI ARMY, FORMER MINISTERS IN THE CABINET, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCE, MYSELF AND AMBASSADORS AND OTHERS ALL JOIN IN WITH THE SAME --THE SAME OBSERVATION, THE SAME CONCLUSION, THAT THIS IS AN EFFORT OF ETHNIC CLEANSING PERPETRATED BY MANY ISRAELIS IN THE TERRITORIES, AND IT HAS TO STOP, AND IT HAS TO STOP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

AND THIS IS WHAT ACTUALLY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE DONE.

THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN MEASURES AGAINST THESE SETTLERS IN ORDER TO REMOVE THE STAIN OF SHAME FROM THE FACE OF OUR COUNTRY.

THEY DIDN'T DO IT.

AND THEREFORE, IT BECAME INEVITABLE THAT SOME OTHERS WHO ARE FRIENDS OF ISRAEL, BUT THEY CARE ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS AND BASIC VALUES THAT WE SEEMS TO HAVE NEGLECTED ALTOGETHER.

>> OKAY.

LET ME ASK YOU THERE, BECAUSE YOU LISTED THE TYPES OF PEOPLE AND THE NUMBERS AND THE BROAD CROSS SECTION OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE SIGNED THIS LETTER AND WHO ARE PROTESTING.

AND MANY OF THEM APPEARED TO BE ESSENTIALLY SECURITY HAWKS.

IT'S NOT LIKE THEY ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO AND HAVE NEVER, YOU KNOW, DEFENDED THEIR COUNTRY, ET CETERA.

BUT ONE OF THE RETIRED GENERALS WHO SIGNED ALONG WITH YOU SAID, "ONCE A SOCIETY BEHAVES THIS WAY, THAT SOCIETY IS DOOMED. "

THE FORMER CONSERVATIVE DEFENSE CENTER TOLD AN ISRAELI OUTLET "WHAT IS JEWISH SUPREMACY?

AFTER YEARS AFTER THE HOLOCAUST, MEIN KAMPF IN REVERSE.

PRIME MINISTER, THESE ARE EXTREMELY VERY, VERY, YOU KNOW, I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO DESCRIBE IT, BUT VERY POINTED COMMENTS FROM AN ISRAELI ABOUT ISRAEL AND ABOUT JEWS.

WHAT EFFECT DO YOU THINK THESE WORDS WILL HAVE ON THE ISRAELI POPULATION?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TO SAY THESE VOICES ARE BECOMING STRONGER AND LOUDER IN THE PUBLIC DISCUSSION IN THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

SO IT MUST BE UNDERSTOOD, AND I'M NOT TRYING TO MINIMIZE THE TERRIBLE IMPACT OF THIS EVENTS.

THAT'S WHY I CALL THEM WHAT THEY ARE, ETHNIC CLEANSING, AND I JOIN IN WITH WHAT GENERAL AND OTHERS SAY ABOUT IT.

BUT THERE IS A LARGE PART OF THE ISRAELI POPULATION WHICH IS SICK AND TIRED OF THIS GOVERNMENT AND OF THESE ACTIONS DOING EVERYTHING IN ORDER TO STOP IT.

NOW WHETHER WE WILL SUCCEED TO DO IT DEPENDS VERY MUCH ON THE OUTCOME OF THE COMING ELECTIONS ON THE 27th OF OCTOBER.

BUT ONE MUST BE --ONE THING MUST BE UNDERSTOOD.

IT SHOWS A PART OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL, A PART OF THE ISRAELI POLITICAL BODIES IN THE UGLIEST POSSIBLE MANNER, WHICH IT IS.

WHEN YOU HEAR NETANYAHU AND THE MINISTER AND OTHERS TALKING ABOUT ALL THESE EVENTS, THERE IS NO WAY THAT YOU CAN IGNORE THE CHAUVINISMIST.

IT'S IMPORTANT AT THE SAME TIME THERE IS A LARGE PART OF THE ISRAEL POPULATION WHICH IS COMPLETELY AGAINST IT AND FIGHTING PUBLICLY AND TRYING TO HOPEFULLY BRING A CHANGE THAT WILL REMOVE THIS GOVERNMENT FROM THE NATIONAL AGENDA OF ISRAEL AND WILL BRING IT AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ATTITUDE.

>> SO LET ME JUST ASK YOU, THEN.

YOU DON'T HAVE A CRYSTAL BALL, BUT YOU ARE A FORMER PRIME MINISTER.

YOU'VE RUN FOR ELECTIONS.

YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING IN YOUR COUNTRY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE THE OUTCOME OF THIS ELECTION?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK I MIGHT DECLARE WHAT I HOPE, WHAT I WANT.

>> YES.

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> IT'S VERY TIGHT.

YOU MUST UNDERSTAND, AND I'M SURE YOU KNOW IT, BECAUSE YOU HAVE VISITED HERE, AND YOU ARE SO EXPERIENCED IN WATCHING EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIVES FOR GENERATIONS.

SO YOU KNOW THAT THE IMPACT OF THE 7th OF OCTOBER ON THE PART OF THE ISRAELI POPULATION WAS VERY SIGNIFICANT.

PEOPLE THAT USED TO SHARE MY POINTS OF VIEW, THAT THOUGHT THE TWO- STATE SOLUTION WAS THE ONLY POSSIBLE WAY TO RESOLVE HISTORICAL CONFLICT BETWEEN US AND THE PALESTINIANS HAVE SHIFTED, HAVE CHANGE THEIR MIND AS A RESULT OF THE TERRIBLE IMPACT OF THE MASSACRE AND THE ATROCITIES WHICH TOOK PLACE PERPETRATED BY PALESTINIAN, BY HAMAS.

THEY STARTED THE WHOLE THING ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

SO THERE HAS BEEN A CHANGE IN THE PUBLIC OPINION STILL.

ACCORDING TO ALL THE POLLS THAT WERE CONDUCTED FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, THE BLOC AGAINST NETANYAHU IS SLIGHTLY BIGGER.

EVENTUALLY IT WILL DEPEND ON WHETHER THE WINNING SIDE, I MEAN THE SIDE OF THE OPPOSITION TODAY LED BY I BELIEVE GENERAL EISENCOT, A FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF, WILL AGREE TO COOPERATE WITH OUR PARTIES, AT LEAST ONE OF OUR PARTIES.

I HOPE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WILL BECOME POSSIBLE.

NO ONE WILL SAY IT NOW BEFORE THE ELECTIONS BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO LOSE POSSIBLE SUPPORT AMONGST THE CERTAIN PART OF THE POPULATION.

BUT I BELIEVE THAT IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE THAT OUT AFTER THE ELECTIONS IT WILL BECOME POSSIBLE AND THAT WILL MAKE IT MORE DECISIVE.

BUT CERTAINLY, ONE MUST UNDERSTAND.

NETANYAHU'S BLOC DOESN'T HAVE MORE THAN 42% OF THE POPULATION IN ALL THE POLLS.

AND I HOPE THAT IT WILL BE EVEN SMALLER.

>> IT'S STILL QUITE A LOT, 42% IF YOU ARE HIM.

LET ME ASK YOU, THOUGH, YOU MENTIONED THE ELECTION AND YOU MENTIONED PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU.

AND I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A VERY EXPLOSIVE REPORT IN HAARETZ, WHICH COMES FROM A BOOK WRITTEN BY THE JOURNALIST SHLOMI UVAL.

I'M GOING TO READ IT AGAIN FOR OUR AUDIENCE SAYING THE EU PRESIDENT CALLED NETANYAHU TEN DAYS BEFORE OCTOBER 7th WARNING THAT YAHYA SINWAR, THE HEAD OF HAMAS WAS PLANNING A MAJOR MOVE AGAINST ISRAEL THAT COULD CAUSE BLOODSHED AND DESTABILIZE THE REGION.

IT GOES ON TO SAY THAT NETANYAHU REACTED CALMLY, ASSURING THAT ISRAEL WAS READY FOR ANY SCENARIO.

NOW NETANYAHU'S OFFICE IS SAYING THIS IS A COMPLETE LIE.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW, IF ANYTHING ABOUT ANY WARNINGS AND EARLY ON AFTER OCTOBER 7 th WE HEARD RUMORS THAT MAYBE EGYPT HAD WARNED ISRAEL.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR ALLIES IN THE ARAB WORLD.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS POSSIBLE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, IT'S BEEN SAID AND TALKED AND WRITTEN A LONG PERIOD OF TIME THAT THERE WAS A WARNING FROM EGYPT.

OF COURSE YOU DON'T EXPECT ANY OFFICIAL FROM CAIRO TO CONFIRM OR DENY.

THEY WILL PROBABLY JUST AVOID COMMENTING ON IT.

BUT WE HAVE A GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THEY WERE WARNED NETANYAHU A WHILE BEFORE THE 7th OF OCTOBER THAT SOMETHING IS COMING UP AND THAT HE SHOULD TAKE THE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS.

I HAVE NO DOUBT, I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT WHAT THE HAARETZ PUBLISHED IS ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE.

I HAVE A GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THIS IS ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE.

NETANYAHU WAS WARNED.

BUT I REMEMBER AN INTERVIEW I GAVE YOU MAYBE A DAY OR TWO DAYS AFTER THE 7th OF OCTOBER, AND I SAY AT THAT TIME ALREADY WHAT HAPPENED WAS, OF COURSE THE BRUTALITY AND THE MURDEROUS NATURE OF HAMAS.

THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

THIS IS THE CAUSE FOR THE EVENTS ON THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME I SAY THAT THE LACK OF ISRAELI RESPONSE ON THE FIRST FEW HOURS AND EVEN LATER WAS A RESULT OF ARROGANCE AND OVERCONFIDENCE THAT WE'LL NEED TO DEAL WITH THE PALESTINIANS.

THEY CAN DO ANYTHING.

WE DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY AND SO ON BECAUSE WE CAN MANAGE ANY WAY.

THE ARROGANCE HAS CHARACTERIZED THE GOVERNMENT ATTITUDE.

THE LACK OF ANY SERIOUS ATTEMPT TO DEAL WITH THE PALESTINIANS.

NETANYAHU REALLY THOUGHT THAT HE CAN BUY HAMAS WITH MONEY, AND THAT'S WHAT HE TRIED TO DO.

AND THEREFORE I THINK THAT WHEN HE WAS WARNED THAT THERE IS SOMETHING, HE DIDN'T BELIEVE BECAUSE WHO ARE THESE PALESTINIANS THAT THEY CAN THREATEN THE STATE OF ISRAEL AND CAN TAKE OVER 22 ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS WITHIN FEW HOURS WITHOUT TANKS, WITHOUT AIRPLANES, SO ON AND SO FORTH.

THE ARROGANCE HAS CAUSED THE COLLAPSE OF THE SECURITY MEASURES WHICH WE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN AND BE WELL PREPARED TO HANDLE WHEN THE TIME COMES.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE WERE NOT THERE.

>> CAN YOU --I'M STRUCK BY WHAT YOU SAID, "I HAVE REASON TO BELIEVE THAT, YES, HE WAS WARNED. "

>> YEAH.

>> CAN YOU TELL ME ANY MORE DETAILS OF THOSE REASONS?

>> MAYBE ONE DAY I'LL HAVE TO SAY IT IN COURT IF NETANYAHU WILL BE POWERFUL ENOUGH, COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO CHALLENGE THE HAARETZ IN THE PRESS.

I HAVE -- AGAIN, I SAY CHRISTIANE, I WANT TO BE VERY ACCURATE.

I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THE PUBLICATION HAARETZ WAS ACCURATE, AND I HAVE A GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE IT WAS ACCURATE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, JOURNALISTS AND EVEN POLITICAL PERSONS ARE NOT ALWAYS FREE TO OPEN UP THEIR SOURCES.

>> YEAH.

AND ALSO NEWS HAS STARTED TO FILTER OUT THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE POSSIBLY A SUIT.

YOU KNOW, THE PRIME MINISTER IS GOING TO SUE HAARETZ OVER THIS.

WE'LL SEE WHERE IT GOES.

BUT THAT IS WHAT I JUST READ IN THE NEWS COMING OUT.

>> HE NEEDS TO SUE THE HAARETZ IN ORDER TO COVER HIMSELF UNTIL THE ELECTIONS.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT WILL EVER TAKE PLACE IN REAL LIFE.

>> DO YOU THINK IN REAL LIFE IT WILL EVER TAKE PLACE WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU?

FOR INSTANCE, I WAS IN ISRAEL COVERING THE 2006 WAR WITH HEZBOLLAH, RIGHT, IN LEBANON, AND I REPORTED THAT WAR ALONG WITH MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES, AND IT DIDN'T GO VERY WELL.

I KNOW YOU CAN ARGUE, BUT LET'S NOT DO THAT.

WHAT WE KNOW IS AFTERWARDS, YOU, LIKE IS TRADITIONAL IN ISRAEL, DID FACE AN AFTER ACTION REPORT AND AN ACCOUNTING OF WHAT HAPPENED, WHAT WENT RIGHT, WHAT WENT WRONG, ET CETERA.

PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS NOT FACED THAT KIND OF SIMILAR INVESTIGATION, INTERNAL INVESTIGATION SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

DO YOU THINK THAT WILL EVER HAPPEN?

>> WELL, IF THERE WILL BE A NEW GOVERNMENT AFTER THE ELECTIONS, I ALMOST CONFIDENT THAT THE FIRST DECISION, THE FIRST RESOLUTION OF A NEW GOVERNMENT AFTER THE 27 OF OCTOBER ELECTIONS WILL BE TO ESTABLISH AN INQUIRY COMMISSION APPOINTED BY THE SUPREME COURT.

THERE IS NO QUESTION IN MY MIND THIS WILL BE THE FIRST STEP OF ANY NEW GOVERNMENT IN ISRAEL.

AND FOR MUCH BETTER REASONS THAN ARE ONES THAT FORCED ME TO --YEAH.

>> WELL, YEAH, YOU THINK HE'S GOT MORE TO ANSWER FOR.

IN ANY EVENT, YOU WERE VERY HEAVILY CRITICIZED, AND YOU HAD TO TAKE THAT PUBLIC CRITICISM.

>> YEAH, YES.

THAT'S RIGHT.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT GAZA, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE REST OF THE WORLD IS VERY FOCUSED ON WHAT ISRAEL DID IN GAZA AFTER THE HORRORS THAT YOU VERY ACCURATELY JUST DESCRIBED FOR US ABOUT HAMAS' ATTACK THAT DAY.

ONE ISRAELI IS QUOTED IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" BASICALLY SAYS, AND THAT IS QUOTING THE FORMER HEAD OF A DIVISION, "IF I HAD TO, I COULD MAKE A LEGAL DEFENSE OF WHAT THE ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES HAVE DONE IN GAZA.

BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY IN THE WEST BANK, IT IS INDEFENSIBLE. "

IT'S INTERESTING THAT THE WORLD IS FOCUSED ON GAZA AND FINDS IT INDEFENSIBLE AND HAS USED WORDS LIKE GENOCIDE AND WAR CRIMES, ET CETERA.

BUT IN ISRAEL, YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE WEST BANK AND NOT SO MUCH WHAT HAPPENED IN YOUR NAME IN GAZA.

>> YEAH.

NUMBER ONE, I THINK I SAID TO YOU AT CNN THE INTERVIEW THAT --AND I WROTE IN THE ISRAELI PRESS AND IT WAS PUBLISHED EVERYWHERE THAT WAR CRIMES WERE COMMITTED DURING THE WAR IN GAZA.

THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE TO BE KILLED AND THEY WERE KILLED, INCLUDING CHILDREN AND WOMEN AND PEOPLE THAT WERE NOT INVOLVED.

THE QUESTION WAS WHETHER THERE WAS A POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT.

AND I SAY WHILE I DON'T SUPPORT NETANYAHU, AS YOU CAN SEE, I DON'T THINK THERE WAS A POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT.

THERE WERE WAR CRIMES COMMITTED IN GAZA.

THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

AND IT CAN'T BE DENIED.

IT ALL STARTED WITH THIS TERRIBLE MASSACRE THE 7th OF OCTOBER.

BUT THROUGHOUT THE TWO YEARS OF FIGHTING, MUCH LONGER THAN WAS NEEDED ON THE FIRST PLACE, THERE WERE ALSO WAR CRIMES WHICH WERE COMMITTED WHICH IS ABSOLUTELY REGRETTABLE.

BUT THERE WAS NOT A POLICY OF GENOCIDE OR POLICY OF WAR CRIMES.

AND THEREFORE I SAY THAT I THINK THE DECISION OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT IN HAUGE TO ISSUE AN ARREST WARRANT AGAINST NETANYAHU AND THEN MINISTER OF DEFENSE GALLANT WAS NOT JUSTIFIED IN THE LEGAL CONTEXT OF THIS.

WHILE IN GAZA, WHILE IN THE WEST BANK WE ARE IN FULL CONTROL.

THERE IS NO ENEMY THERE.

THERE IS ONLY AN ISRAELI ARMY AND A VERY COOPERATIVE SECURITY FORCES OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, WHICH ARE HELPING STATE OF ISRAEL TO DEFEND AGAINST TERROR COMING FROM PALESTINIANS.

THERE IS NO REASON, NO BASIS THAT ISRAEL WILL NOT TAKE THE NECESSARY MEASURES TO STOP THE JEWISH TERRORISTS WHICH ARE PERPETRATING THESE ATROCITIES.

AND THEREFORE WHILE THERE MAY BE ARGUMENTS ABOUT THE RESPONSIBILITY AND WHO - - WHICH LEVEL IS RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN GAZA, THEY CAN BE NO ARGUMENT ABOUT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE TO THE WAR CRIMES CRIMES AND ETHNIC CLEANSING WHICH IS CARRIED OUT BY ISRAELIS, BY JEWS IN FRONT OF THE EYES OF THE ISRAELI POLICE, IN FRONT OF THE EYES OF ISRAELI ARMY THAT LED PEOPLE LIKE GENERAL YELLEN AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE ISRAELI AND NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCE TO ACCUSE THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT OF PERPETRATING THESE ATROCITIES IN SUCH HARSH AND UNUSUAL EXTREME TERMS AS YOU JUST READ OUT FOR ME.

>> PRIME MINISTER EHUD OLMERT, ALWAYS INTERESTING TO TALK TO YOU AND GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> NOW FURTHER AFIELD IN THE MIDDLE EAST, A MAJOR GAIN FOR THE IRAN-BACKED HOUTHI MILITIA, WHICH IS REPORTEDLY CAPTURED A STRATEGIC RED SEAPORT CITY.

IT BRINGS THEM ONE STEP CLOSER TO CONTROL OVER THE CRUCIAL BAB AL MANDAR STRAIT WHILE THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ REMAINS EFFECTIVELY SHUT.

MEANTIME AMID AMERICA'S STALLED WAR ON IRAN, ANOTHER BATTLE IS PLAYING OUT INSIDE THE PENTAGON.

DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH IS PUSHING AHEAD WITH HIS SWEEPING PURGES, WHICH SEEMS TO HAVE PROMPTED THE ARMY SECRETARY DAN DRISCOLL TO RESIGN LAST WEEK AFTER RAISING CONCERNS ABOUT THIS WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE LOSS OF SENIOR ARMY LEADERS, AND IT COMES AS THE CHALLENGES ARE PILING UP.

FROM A SHORTAGE OF KEY AIR MISSILES TO A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS SOME SAY IN THE NAVY, AND ALL AMID THIS ENDLESS WAR ON IRAN.

HEGSETH'S RESPONSE HAS BEEN TO TIGHTEN HIS GRIP, FIRING TOP JOURNALISTS AT THE MILITARY'S INDEPENDENT NEWSPAPER, BRINGING IN SO-CALLED MILITARY INFLUENCERS, AND ACCORDING TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES," USING POLYGRAPH TESTS ON OFFICERS AND CIVILIANS IN A HUNT FOR LEAKS.

OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS MANY OFFICERS ARE, QUOTE, APPALLED BUT AFRAID TO CHALLENGE WHAT THEY'RE SEEING.

HE IS FRANK KENDALL, WHO SERVED AS SECRETARY OF THE AIR FORCE UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN, AND HE RECENTLY RELEASED THE BOOK "LETHAL AUTONOMY. "

HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM VIRGINIA.

FRANK KENDALL, WELCOME TO THE WOMAN.

--PROGRAM.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> WE'VE GOT A BIT OF A DELAY.

YES, IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEING WATCHED ALL OVER THE WORLD.

THE NEWS THAT KEEPS COMING OUT OF THE PENTAGON, PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF WHO ARE WRITING ABOUT IT AND RAISING THE ALARM BELLS.

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU ARE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT WHICH FORCED YOU OR TOOK YOU TO WRITING THIS PUBLIC LETTER AGAINST WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE PENTAGON?

>> I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT HOW OUR MILITARY IS GOING TO BE USED.

IT'S ALREADY BEEN USED IN SOME WAYS WHICH ALMOST LEGAL AUTHORITIES BELIEVE IS UNLAWFUL.

THE MOST EGREGIOUS VERSION OF THAT IS THE EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLINGS OF ALLEGED DRUG DEALERS IN THE PACIFIC AND IN THE CARIBBEAN.

CAMPAIGN'S BEEN GOING ON FOR ABOUT A YEAR NOW.

BUT THEY'RE INITIATING A WAR IN IRAQ WHICH WAS NEVER AUTHORIZED BY CONGRESS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE.

AND SO FAR NONE OF OUR MILITARY LEADERS THAT I'M AWARE OF HAVE STOOD UP AND SAID NO, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.

WITH THE ELECTIONS COMING UP, I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT HOW OUR MILITARY MIGHT BE USED IN THE CONTEXT OF THE ELECTIONS, EITHER LEADING UP TO THEM, FOLLOWING THEM OR DURING THEM IF THERE IS UNREST.

THE PART IN THE PIECE I WROTE RECENTLY IS TO LET OUR SENIOR MILITARY LEADERS KNOW THAT THE THINGS THEY SEEM TO BE DOING AS DEFENSE MECHANISMS, PRETENDING EVERYTHING IS NORMAL AND THEN KIND OF PARTITIONING OFF THEIR ROLE IN TERMS OF ADVISING AND SUPPORTING THE PRESIDENT TO BE VERY NARROWLY DEFINED OF CURRENT MILITARY THINGS IS REALLY NOT APPROPRIATE.

IT'S A COP-OUT.

THEY HAVE MORE RESPONSIBILITIES THAN THAT.

>> OKAY.

SO I WANT --I WANT TO DRILL DOWN ON THAT, BECAUSE THE CURRENT CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, GENERAL DAN CAINE SAID I THINK IT WAS AT WEST POINT THAT THIS IS --WE NEED TO HAVE SOME SORT OF BEAUTIFUL AMBIGUITY.

I MEAN, I'M TOTALLY PARAPHRASING AND GETTING IT WRONG.

BUT WE SHOULD NOT CONFLATE WHAT WE CAN DO WITH WHAT WE SHOULD DO.

THAT'S FOR THE --THAT'S FOR THE POLITICIANS.

SO I GUESS MY QUESTION TO YOU IS THERE PRECEDENCE?

WE ALL HEAR ABOUT THE CHAIN OF COMMAND THAT THE MILITARY MUST DO WHAT THE CIVILIANS TELL THEM TO DO.

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU'RE SAYING MILITARY OFFICERS SHOULD BE DOING AND HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DO?

>> OUR OFFICERS ARE TAKEN AN OATH TO SUPPORT THE CONSTITUTION.

THEY DON'T TAKE AN OATH TO SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT.

NOW THERE IS A PRESUMPTION WITH THE PRESIDENT THAT WHATEVER THE PRESIDENT TELLS YOU TO DO SHOULD BE LAWFUL, BUT THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY TRUE.

LAWYERS ARE IN PLACE TO ADVISE OFFICERS ABOUT WHETHER ORDERS OR LAWFUL OR NOT.

SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, DONALD TRUMP HAS PUT LAWYERS IN PLACE THAT ARE LOYAL TO HIM THAT WILL JUSTIFY JUST ABOUT ANYTHING HE TELLS THEM TO DO.

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY PLACE WHERE THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THOSE EXAMPLES EARLIER.

DURING THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, DONALD TRUMP ORDERED THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS AT THAT TIME, GENERAL MILLEY, TO GO TO PORTLAND AND SHOOT PROTESTERS.

AND MILLEY TOLD THEM NO, ECAN'T DO THAT.

AND HE WAS BACKED UP BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AT THAT TIME, ATTORNEY BARR.

HE DID NOT DO THAT.

TRUMP HAS NOT FORGOTTEN THAT AS FAR AS I CAN TELL.

HE HAS NOW PUT A CHAIRMAN IN THE JOINT CHIEFS AND PURGED A NUMBER OF COMMANDERS FOR LACK OF PERCEIVED LOYALTY AND PUT IN PLACE PEOPLE HE THINKS WILL DO WHATEVER THEY'RE TOLD TO DO.

PEETE PEAY HAS REPEATEDLY EMPHASIZED THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE MAXIMUM LETHALITY.

WHERE OUR SENIOR LEADERS NEED TO REMEMBER THEIR OATHS.

AND WHEN THEY'RE TOLD TO DO SOMETHING UNLAWFUL, UNETHICAL, IMMORAL, SAY NO.

AND I'M NOT SEEING ANY EVIDENCE SO FAR THAT THEY'RE PREPARED TO DO THAT.

>> YOU RAISE PETE HEGSETH, AND HE IS OBVIOUSLY UNDER A LOT OF PUBLICITY AND SCRUTINY OVER A LOT OF THIS, INCLUDING OVER THE CONDUCT OF THE IRAN WAR, WHICH WE'LL GET TO.

BUT I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT HE SAID IN A SPEECH TO THE PENTAGON STAFF SOON AFTER TAKING OFFICE.

AND HE'S ARGUING THAT THE PERSONNEL CHANGES THAT WE'VE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT, WHETHER THEY'RE PURGES OR BLOCKING PROMOTIONS OR FIRINGS, ET CETERA ARE, A RESPONSE TO DEI INITIATIVES UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IN WHICH YOU SERVED.

SO HERE'S WHAT HE SAYS.

>> I THINK THE SINGLE DUMBEST PHRASE IN MILITARY HISTORY IS OUR DIVERSITY IS OUR STRENGTH.

I THINK OUR STRENGTH IS OUR UNITY.

OUR STRENGTH IS OUR SHARED PURPOSE, REGARDLESS OF OUR BACKGROUND, REGARDLESS OF HOW WE GREW UP, REGARDLESS OF OUR GENDER, REGARDLESS OF OUR RACE, IN THIS DEPARTMENT, WE WILL TREAT EVERYONE EQUALLY.

>> AND FRANK KENDALL, YOU KNOW THAT THERE'S MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE READ WHAT YOU'VE WRITTEN AND OTHERS AGREE WITH YOU.

THERE ARE OTHERS ALSO WHO SAY ACTUALLY THERE WAS WAY TOO MUCH DEI UNDER THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

HOW DO YOU ADDRESS THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THE DEI INITIATIVES THAT WE DID WERE LARGELY STARTED IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AS A RESULT OF GEORGE FLOYD AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT.

SO WE DIDN'T REALLY CHANGE POLICIES VERY MUCH.

THEY WERE WHAT SECRETARY HEGSETH IN THAT CLIP, TREAT EVERYBODY THE SAME.

THAT'S NOT NEW.

THAT'S FINE.

THERE IS A PERCEPTION APPARENTLY THAT PEOPLE WERE PROMOTED AND GIVEN POSITIONS SOLELY BECAUSE OF IDENTITY.

THAT WAS NEVER DONE.

WE PUT PEOPLE IN POSITIONS BECAUSE OF THEIR --THEY HAVE MERIT, BECAUSE THEY'RE PROFESSIONALISM AND THEIR CAPABILITIES.

WE DID TRY TO INCREASE THE DIVERSITY AT THE SENIOR RANKS BECAUSE IT'S NOT VERY DIVERSE THERE, AND THE FORCE AS A WHOLE IS DIVERSE AND DOESN'T SEE A SIMILAR FORCE, A SIMILAR MIX AT THE TOP OF THE ORGANIZATION.

PETE HEGSETH IS 100% WRONG ABOUT DIVERSITY NOT ADDING TO STRENGTH AND CAPABILITY.

IT'S VERY WELL ESTABLISHED SCIENTIFICALLY, DIVERSE GROUPS MAKE BETTER DECISIONS.

THEY GET MORE POINTS OF VIEW HEARD AND A RESULT OF THAT MORE OPTIONS ARE CONSIDERED AND BETTER DECISIONS ARE MADE.

I SAW A NUMBER OF EXAMPLES OF THAT WHEN I WAS SECRETARY.

IF EVERYBODY IS THE SAME, THERE WERE A LOT OF THINGS THAT THE GROUP IS JUST NOT EVEN GOING TO THINK ABOUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE SAME BACKGROUNDS AND ARE VERY HOMO O GENOUS.

HE IS RIGHT ABOUT US BEING A MERITOCRACY, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE CONTINUING.

>> I WANT TO DRILL DOWN BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE OUTRAGEOUS FIRINGS WAS THE FIRING OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, BROWN, AIR FORCE GENERAL, MANY, MANY COMBAT MISSIONS.

HE WAS IN OFFICE WHEN YOU WERE AIR FORCE SECRETARY, AND HE WAS ACTUALLY APPOINTED BY DONALD TRUMP, AS YOU SAY, AND IN FACT DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF WAS VERY PLEASED WITH HIMSELF, SAYING HE WAS A PATRIOT AND A GREAT LEADER, AND THAT HE, YOU KNOW, APPOINTED THIS BLACK AIR FORCE OFFICER GENERAL TO BE THE HIGHEST RANKING MILITARY OFFICIAL.

AND THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT HIS MERITOCRACY, AND HE HAS WRITTEN NOT NAMING TRUMP OR HEGSETH OR THE CONDITIONS OF HIS FIRING, BUT HE HAS SAID THAT HE IS VERY CONCERNED THAT THE MILITARY IS BEING POLITICIZED.

>> I READ THAT PIECE BY GENERAL BROWN, AND I THINK HE UNDERSTATED THE SITUATION, QUITE FRANKLY.

IT'S BEING POLITICIZED IN A VERY DRAMATIC WAY.

THERE ARE THE PURGES AT THE TOP, YOU KNOW.

25 ROUGHLY SENIOR OFFICERS.

THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF PEOPLE PULLED OFF PROMOTION LISTS.

WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THAT RIGHT NOW IS THE MILITARY SERVICES ARE THE PEOPLE THEY PUT FORWARD BECAUSE THEY WANT THEM TO GET THROUGH AND TAKE VARIOUS JOBS.

THE DAMAGE BEING DONE TODAY WILL TAKE AT LEAST A DECADE I THINK TO REPAIR.

BY THE TIME WE GO THROUGH ANOTHER TWO-PLUS YEARS OF THIS, IT'S GOING TO BE DEEP AND IT'S GOING TO BE SIGNIFICANT.

AND IT'S VERY MUCH POLITICIZATION.

WHEN I WROTE THE PIECE, I THOUGHT THERE WAS A DEFENSE MECHANISM PRETENDING EVERYTHING WAS NORMAL AND TRYING TO PRETEND PEOPLE WERE NEUTRAL.

SINCE I WROTE IT, A NUMBER OF PEOPLE HAVE REACHED OUT THE ME AND SAID IT'S MUCH WORSE THAN THAT.

THEY'RE BEING ACTIVELY POLITICIZED.

THEY'RE BEING ACTIVELY TOLD THAT THEY HAVE TO SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE THERE FOR.

AND THAT'S NOT WHAT THE MILITARY IS THERE FOR.

THE MILITARY IS THERE TO SUPPORT THE COUNTRY AND DEFEND THE COUNTRY AND CARRY OUT THE ORDERS AND FULFILL THE POLICIES OF THE PRESIDENT.

BUT THEY'RE NOT THERE AS POLITICAL OPERATORS WORKING FOR THE PRESIDENT AS A POLITICAL FORCE.

THIS IS UNFORTUNATELY DRIVING A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT.

IT'S HAVING AN EFFECT ALL THROUGH THE FORCE, AND IT'S VERY DYSFUNCTIONAL FOR THE FORCE.

>> AND WHEN YOU SAY DYSFUNCTIONAL, I WANT TO KNOW YOUR OPINION ON HOW IT AFFECTS ACTUAL WAR FIGHTING.

I MEAN, LOOK, WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OR THE UNITED STATES IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS SEEMINGLY UNRESOLVABLE AT THE MOMENT WAR AGAINST IRAN.

AND THERE'S BEEN MANY, MANY, YOU KNOW --WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO ANALYZE THIS FOR THE LAST SIX, SEVEN MONTHS SINCE IT STARTED, MORE THAN THAT NOW.

THERE'S BEEN APPARENTLY ACCORDING TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES" POLYGRAPH TESTS ADMINISTERED AGAINST THOSE WHO THEY THINK MIGHT HAVE LEAKED THE FACT THAT THERE IS A LACK OF AMMUNITION AND DWINDLING SPLICE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THE LEAKERS OF THESE TREASONOUS STATEMENTS ARE BEING HUNTED DOWN.

LONG-TERM JAIL SENTENCES WILL BE SOUGHT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE IMPACT OF THAT KIND OF, YOU KNOW, HUNTING THESE SO-CALLED LEAKERS DOWN?

AND IF THE LEAKERS DIDN'T LEAK THIS VITAL MILITARY INFORMATION, WHAT IS THE IMPACT ON ACTUALLY TRYING TO WAGE AND WIN A WAR?

>> THERE IS A SUPPRESSION OF ANY VOICES WHICH ARE CONTRARY TO WHAT THE LEADERSHIP WANTS TO HEAR.

THERE IS A LOT OF INTIMIDATION.

AND I'VE HAD A NUMBER OF PEOPLE COME TO ME AND TELL ME ABOUT INSTANCES WHERE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE HAVE VERY CONSCIOUSLY REFUSED TO DELIVER THE TRUTH TO THE SECRETARY BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT'S NOT WHAT HE WANTS TO HEAR.

I THINK THAT MAY BE HAPPENING AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS.

THE IRAN WAR IS A VERY LARGE SCALE EXAMPLE.

WHAT IRAN HAS DONE HAS BEEN UNDERSTOOD AND EXPECTED FOR DECADES.

THERE IS NO MYSTERY HERE EITHER ABOUT THE RESILIENCY OF THE REGIME OR WHAT THEY WOULD DO IF IRAN WAS ATTACKED.

THEY PLAYED OUT EXACTLY WHAT WE WOULD HAVE EXPECTED.

AND YET NOBODY STOOD UP AND SAID TO THE SECRETARY AND THE PRESIDENT THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE.

HERE'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

SO HERE WE ARE IN A WAR WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO GET OUT OF IN WHICH IRAN NOW CONTROLS THE TIMING OF WHEN IT'S GOING TO END, APPARENTLY.

THE PRESIDENT ADMITTED AS MUCH JUST RECENTLY.

SO IT'S A GLARING EXAMPLE OF THE FAILURE OF THE MILITARY PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO SPEAK THE TRUTH TO THE PEOPLE IN POWER AND TO AFFECT THEIR DECISIONS BY DOING THAT.

>> AND JUST TO THAT POINT, HE DID SAY, PRESIDENT TRUMP, THAT HE BELIEVED THE IRANIANS WERE LOOKING AT THE MIDTERMS, WOULD JUST CARRY ON THROUGH THE MIDTERMS AND THEN STOP AND ALL THE OIL PRICES WOULD GO DOWN AND THE COMMODITIES AND OIL PRICES WOULD GO DOWN.

BUT "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" IS REPORTING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S TOP ADVISERS, INCLUDING THE VICE PRESIDENT AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE, HAVE RAISED THE PROSPECT THAT THE IRAN COULD CARRY OUT THIS WAR TO FRUSTRATE PRESIDENT TRUMP TO THE END OF HIS TERM, JUST LIKE THEY DID WITH THE HOSTAGE CRISIS TO THE END OF THE JIMMY CARTER TERM AND RELEASED ALL THOSE HOSTAGES IN 1980 WHEN REAGAN WAS INAUGURATED.

SO THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE WILLING TO TELL HIM.

TELL ME HOW YOU READ THAT.

>> IT'S GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE IT'S PRETTY OBVIOUS.

AND THOSE PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT A POSSIBILITY.

NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

YOU MENTIONED DONALD TRUMP'S LATEST, YOU KNOW, PROGNOSTICATION ON THIS.

HE HAS BEEN SO WRONG SO MANY TIMES.

I DON'T KNOW WHY ANYTHING HE SAYS HAS ANY CREDIBILITY AT THIS POINT OTHER THAN TO NOTE THAT HE SAID IT.

BUT IRAN IS IN CONTROL OF WHEN THIS WAR IS GOING TO END, AS FAR AS I REQUEST TELL.

WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO DO ANYTHING THAT'S CHANGED THAT.

MOST RECENTLY, ESCALATION HAS OCCURRED.

IT STARTED WITH IRAN'S ATTACKS ON SOME OF OUR WARSHIPS, AND WE STARTED ATTACKING TANKERS.

AND THEN THAT'S ESCALATED NOW.

BUT THERE'S NO WAY THIS CLEARLY COMES TO AN END.

IRAN HAS RETAINED QUITE A CAPABILITY.

WE HAVE QUITE A BIT OF CAPABILITY TOO, AND WE CAN GO ON SHOOTING AT EACH OTHER.

THE STRAITS ARE GOING TO BE LARGELY CLOSED.

IT'S IN EVERYBODY'S INTEREST TO BRING THIS TO A CONCLUSION AND CUT A DEAL OF SOME KIND.

BUT RIGHT NOW NEITHER SIDE SEEMS BEING TO DO THAT.

THE U. S. , DONALD TRUMP WOULD REALLY LIKE TO HAVE THIS OVER.

BUT IRAN, AGAIN, IS CONTROLLING THE TIMELINE.

NOW WE'RE SEEING IT BROADENING.

YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, THE EXPANSION OF THE CONFLICT AND AN INCREASED ECONOMIC FACTOR AROUND THE WORLD.

>> I KNOW IT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT ONE TO FIGURE OUT WHERE IT'S GOING AND WHEN.

FRANK KENDALL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS REALLY IMPORTANT SUBJECT.

> >> NOW TO A MEDICAL MILESTONE.

IN A CLINICAL TRIAL, A VACCINE DEVELOPED BY DRUG COMPANIES MERCK AND MODERNA HAS SHOWN PROMISING RESULTS IN PREVENTING MELANOMA, WHICH IS A TYPE OF SKIN CANCER, FROM RETURNING.

IT RELIES ON mRNA TECHNOLOGY, THE SAME KIND USED IN COVID JABS, AND IT'S THE FIRST TIME IT'S BEEN REPURPOSED TO TREAT CANCER.

SCIENTISTS SAY THIS PROVES THAT PERSONALIZED CANCER VACCINES CAN WORK.

NOUBAR AFEYAN IS THE CO-FOUNDER AND CHAIRMAN OF MODERNA AND HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHAT THIS BREAKTHROUGH MEANS.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND NOUBAR AFEYAN, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE, THANK YOU.

>> EARLIER THIS MONTH, ALONG WITH THE PHARMACEUTICAL MAKER MERCK, YOUR COMPANY MODERNA ANNOUNCED A NEW TYPE OF TREATMENT FOR MELANOMA CANCER, AN mRNA VACCINE.

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THAT WORKS ON MELANOMA.

>> SURE.

WELL, I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE WILL HAVE HEARD ABOUT mRNA VACCINES IN THE CONTEXT OF COVID.

SINCE THEN, THERE HAVE BEEN ADDITIONAL RESPIRATORY VACCINES IN FLU THAT HAS BEEN DEVELOPED AS WELL AS A DISEASE CALLED RSV.

SO THAT TECHNOLOGY IS BROADLY OUT THERE.

WHAT PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE IS THAT ACTUALLY LONG BEFORE THE COVID PANDEMIC HAPPENED, MODERNA HAD BEEN WORKING ON USING THIS TECHNOLOGY TO TUNE THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST CANCERS.

AND TO DO SO INDIVIDUALLY, ONE PATIENT AT A TIME.

BY TAKING THE SEQUENCE OF THE PATIENT'S OWN DNA AND IDENTIFYING CERTAIN MUTATIONS THAT COULD THEN BE THE BASIS FOR A TREATMENT WHERE THE IMMUNE SYSTEM RECOGNIZES THESE TO BE THREATS AND GOES AFTER THEM.

>> SO THE MESSENGER RNA, THAT'S WHAT RNA IS.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> IS ABLE TO TAKE THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE TUMOR'S DNA, THE PATIENT'S DNA, AND BUILD A LITTLE FACSIMILE PROTEIN IN THE CELL OF THE PATIENT.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THAT'S RIGHT.

IN FACT, WHAT'S REALLY AMAZING IS WE STARTED THIS PROJECT ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO.

AND THERE WAS NOTHING TO PRECEDENT THIS BECAUSE NOBODY COULD TAKE THIS KIND OF INFORMATION AND STITCH TOGETHER SOMETHING UP TO 34 DIFFERENT WHAT'S CALLED NEOANTIGENS, NEW MUTATED VERSIONS OF LITTLE PEPTIDES.

AND WHEN YOU STITCH THEM TOGETHER AND PUT THEM INTO AN LMP PARTICLE, WHEN YOU THEN INJECT THAT INTO A PATIENT, THE PATIENT THEN TAKES THIS CODE, PRESENTS IT ON IF SURFACE OF CELLS THAT ARE TRAINED TO THEN ENGAGE THE IMMUNE SYSTEM, AND THE IMMUNE SYSTEM NOW SAYS WELL, I GOT GO AFTER THESE FOREIGN THINGS.

AND THE ONLY PLACE IN THE BODY WHERE THESE FOREIGN THINGS EXIST ESSENTIALLY IS ON THE TUMOR.

SO THE T-CELLS THEN HAVE FULL LICENSE TO GO AND FIND SPECIFIC T-CELLS FOR THAT PATIENT ALONE.

THE REASON IT'S CALLED A VACCINE IS THAT IT IS EVOKING THE IMMUNE RESPONSE.

BUT TRUTH BE TOLD, A VACCINE USUALLY HAS COME TO MEAN A PROPHYLACTIC APPROACH WHICH IS TO PREVENT THE DISEASE.

IN THIS CASE, IT IS A TREATMENT.

SO WE PREFER CALLING IT A INDIVIDUALIZED NEOANTIGEN THERAPY FOR CANCER.

BUT THE PRINCIPLE IS THE SAME.

AND THAT IS LET THE IMMUNE SYSTEM DO THE WORK.

JUST GIVE IT INSTRUCTIONS.

>> AND YOU SAY IT'S PERSONALIZED.

DOES THAT MEAN EVERY PERSON'S TUMOR IS DIFFERENT AND YOU MAKE A NEW DRUG FOR EACH PERSON?

>> INDEED.

THAT'S A REMARKABLE THING.

IT'S A VERY --IT'S A PRODUCT OF THE TYPE OF COMPUTATION APPROACHES WE DEVELOPED OVER THE YEARS, THE AUTOMATION WE HAVE.

SUCH THAT WE CAN WITHIN WEEKS OF GETTING A PATIENT'S SEQUENCE, JUST LIKE WE DID IN THE CASE OF COVID, WITHIN WEEKS WE TURNED AROUND WITH A VACCINE WE CAN TEST, THIS IS DONE NOW FOR INDIVIDUAL CANCER PATIENTS.

WE KNOW, THE FIELD KNOWS THAT EVERY SINGLE PERSON'S CANCER ACCUMULATES DIFFERENT MUTATIONS AND IT'S VERY SPECIFIC TO THAT PERSON.

NOW WE HAVE LOTS OF CANCER TREATMENTS THAT DON'T GO AFTER THE SPECIFICITY.

THEY GO AFTER THE GENERAL TYPE OF TUMOR.

AND WHAT THIS ONE DOES IS TO SAY NO, NO, I'M GOING TO MAKE YOUR BODY MAKE A DEFENSE SYSTEM AGAINST YOUR TUMOR AND BOOST THE IMMUNE SYSTEM'S ABILITY TO RECOGNIZE AND THEN ATTACK.

AND THE REASON, WALTER, THIS WAS A TRIAL DONE IN PARTNERSHIP WITH MERCK, AND THE WHOLE PROGRAM IS, IS BECAUSE MERCK IS A LEADER IN A COMPLIMENTARY APPROACH THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN IN THE MARKETS FOR MANY YEARS WHICH IS A PRODUCT CALLED KEYTRUDA.

AND THESE THINGS ARE A DIFFERENT APPROACH USING ANTIBODIES THAT ESSENTIALLY CREATE THE RIGHT ENVIRONMENT AROUND THE TUMOR SUCH THAT A T-CELL CAN GO AND DO ITS JOB.

SO PREVIOUSLY, BEFORE KEYTRUDA, WHAT'S CALLED AN ANTI-PD 1 ANTIBODY WAS IN THE MARKET.

IT HAS HAD A TREMENDOUS EFFECT ON MANY, MANY CANCERS.

TUMORS ESSENTIALLY PUT OUT SIGNALS THAT KEPT T-CELLS AT BAY.

THE INVENTIONS OF REALLY VERY, VERY BRIGHT SCIENTISTS FIGURED OUT THAT IF YOU COULD SUPPRESS THAT BRAKE SIGN, T-CELLS CAN GET IN.

NOW THE QUESTION IS HOW DOES THE T-CELL KNOW WHAT TO GO AFTER.

WE NOW CAME IN WITH A BOOST OF THAT AND SHOWED IN PHASE III TRIALS, THAT'S WHAT WAS ANNOUNCED A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, THAT WE COULD SHOW STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENTS IN THE RECURRENCE-FREE SURVIVAL IN LATE STAGE MELANOMA PATIENTS WHICH IS VERY ENCOURAGING.

>> JUST THE MAKE SURE EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS, THE T-CELL, IT MEANS YOU'RE USING AN IMMUNE SYSTEM TO TRY TO KILL THAT CANCEROUS CELL, AND YOU'RE PROGRAMING THAT IMMUNE SYSTEM FOR THAT PARTICULAR CANCER CELL.

IS THAT APPROXIMATELY RIGHT?

.

THAT IS VERY CORRECT.

AND IN FACT WHAT'S REALLY REMARKABLE IS THAT IN OUR BODIES, THESE T-CELLS, AND THERE ARE MANY KINDS OF THEM, PARTICULARLY KILLER T-CELLS DO THIS PROFESSIONALLY THROUGHOUT OUR LIVES.

OVER TIME, OVER AGE AND AS OUR IMMUNE SYSTEMS SOMETIMES ALSO WEAKENS, SOMETIMES THE CANCER ESSENTIALLY CAN FIGURE OUT WAYS TO EVADE THE IMMUNE DETECTION AND THEN IT BECOMES A BATTLE BETWEEN THE CANCER AND OUR IMMUNE SYSTEM.

THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN THE KIND OF THE WAY CANCERS ULTIMATELY PREVAIL.

IF WE CAN GIVE OUR IMMUNE SYSTEM A BOOST AND A DIRECTION TO GO AFTER THAT CANCER, WE THINK THAT WE CAN REALLY PROVIDE THE TYPE OF IMPROVED PERFORMANCE THAT COULD LEAD TO MANY CANCERS BEING HELD BACK.

>> YOUR mRNA WE JUST TALKED ABOUT HAS DONE A TREATMENT FOR MELANOMA.

THERE'S ANOTHER ONE THAT CAME OUT THAT DID PANCREATIC CANCER NOT TOO LONG AGO.

WHAT OTHER CANCERS ARE WE GOING TO SEE BEING TREATED BY mRNA TECHNOLOGY?

>> SO THE PANCREATIC CANCER ONE, WALTER, YOU'RE REFERRING TO IS AN EXCITING DEVELOPMENT BY ANOTHER TECHNOLOGY COMPANY WAS A SMALL MOLECULE DRUG NOT USING RNA, BUT IT WAS AN EFFECTIVE TREATMENT FOR A SUPER PROBLEMATIC CANCER IN PANCREATIC.

THERE IS A LOT OF HOPE THERE AND IT WAS APPROVED A DRUG JUST A WEEK OR SO AGO FINALIZED APPROVAL.

WE OURSELVES ARE WORKING TOGETHER WITH OUR PARTNERS AT MERCK ON MULTIPLE OTHER FORMS OF CANCER.

FOR EXAMPLE, A SMALL CELL LUNG CANCER.

WE'RE WORKING ON BLADDER CANCER, WE'RE WORKING ON KIDNEY CANCER.

AND THESE ARE --MANY OF THESE ARE LATE- STAGE TRIALS THAT WE EXPECT WILL BEGIN TO READ OUT OVER THE COMING SIX MONTHS TO A YEAR TIME FRAME.

AND THAT WILL BE INTERESTING BECAUSE IF WE CAN SHOW AN EFFECTIVENESS IMPROVEMENT OVER THE STATE-OF-THE-ART, THEN PEOPLE WILL BEGIN TO REALIZE WHAT WE HOPE TO SHOW WHICH IS THAT THE SAME MECHANISM OF IDENTIFYING A SEQUENCE, TELLING THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO GO AFTER IT WILL POTENTIALLY BE BENEFICIAL IN MULTIPLE KINDS OF CANCER.

SO WE HAVE TO GENERATE THE DATA.

BUT AS WE DO, WE'LL LEARN MORE.

EACH ONE OF THESE TEACHES US WHAT ABOUT THE ACTUAL SEQUENCES MAKES THEM MORE OR LESS IMMUNOGENIC, MORE OR LESS EFFECTIVE.

SO AS IN ANY MEDICAL RESEARCH WORLD THAT WE'RE GOING THROUGH, BUT YES, WE ARE WORKING ON.

AND THERE WILL BE AN EXPANSION OF THESE NO DOUBT AS THE FIRST WAVE OF DATA CAME OUT IN A VERY CONFIRMATORY WAY.

>> HISTORIANS ARE GOING TO LOOK BACK ON THIS PERIOD AND SAY THERE WERE TWO HUGE TRANSFORMATIVE TECHNOLOGIES.

THE FIRST BEING BASICALLY A BIOTECHNOLOGY, ESPECIALLY GENE EDITING AND USE OF RNA.

THE SECOND ONE, OF COURSE, BEING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AI.

SO WHAT EXTENT DID AI PLAY A NECESSARY ROLE IN DEVELOPING THIS?

>> WELL, VERY MUCH SO.

WE HAVE BEEN PIONEERS IN THE APPLICATION OF AI, YET THE DEVELOPMENT OF ANOTHER MODEL FOR MANY, MANY YEARS.

AS YOU KNOW, WALTER, BIOLOGY AS A FIELD IS RICH WITH DATA.

THE LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS WERE TRAINED ON INTERNET- BASED THINGS THAT HUMANS HAVE CREATED.

IN BIOLOGY, WE HAVE THE HISTORY OF EVOLUTION TO THANK FOR OUR A MASSIVE AMOUNT OF DIFFERENT FORMS OF PROTEINS AND DNA AND DIFFERENT MOLECULES.

SO ALL THAT DATA IS A VERY RICH ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH WE CAN DEVELOP MODELS.

YOU MIGHT SAY WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH OUR PARTICULAR THERAPEUTIC.

AND THE ANSWER IS IN THE BACKDROP OF THREE BILLION BASES, YOU HAVE IN ANY GIVEN PERSON HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS MAYBE MORE OF MUTATIONS THAT ARE RELEVANT IN PARTICULAR CANCER.

IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DETECT WHICH ONES OF THOSE WILL BE EFFECTIVE SIGNALS FOR THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TO EFFECTIVELY GO AFTER A CANCER, YOU NEED TO TRAIN MODELS.

AND WE'VE DONE SO FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

THESE MODELS ARE GETTING BETTER AND BETTER WITH THE NEW GENERATION OF AI.

SO AI HAS BEEN AN INTEGRAL PART OF THIS DEVELOPMENT, BUT FOR THAT MATTER, EXCITINGLY, ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT WILL COME OUT OF THIS MODALITY.

WE CALL THIS, WALTER WE HAVE FOR YEARS, PROGRAMMABLE MEDICINES.

SO MEDICINES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IDIOSYNCRATIC ONE-OFF THINGS, A CHEMICAL, A PROTEIN.

BUT WE KNOW THAT IN OUR BODIES THE CODE OF LIFE, DNA TRANSLATED TO --TRANSCRIBED TO RNA, THESE ARE CODE MOLECULES.

AND WE'VE LONG THOUGHT IF WE COULD CAPTURE THE ESSENCE OF HOW THE CODES ARE WORKING AND REPRODUCE IT IN AN AUTOMATED WAY TO MAKE SPECIFIC EFFECTIVE TREATMENTS, THAT'S A WHOLE NEW ERA IN MEDICINE.

AND SO WHEN AI AND THIS BIOLOGY GENETIC MEDICINES SAY PROGRAMMABLE MEDICINE WORLD CONVERSIONS, WE ARE QUITE EXCITED ABOUT WHAT WE CAN DO.

NOT ONLY, BY THE WAY, IN CANCER, BUT IN AUTOIMMUNE DISEASE WHERE THESE APPROACHES ARE ADVANCING.

WHERE THE IMMUNE SYSTEM TURNS AGAINST THE PERSON'S OWN PHYSIOLOGY, WE'D LIKE TO VERY PRECISELY BE ABLE TO DETUNE THAT.

WE'RE LEARNING WAYS 20 DO THAT.

WE HAVE CLINICAL TRIALS THAT ARE BEGINNING TO START.

SO THIS IS A WHOLE NEW PERIOD OF MATCHING COMPLEXITY TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST COMPLEXITY.

>> EXPLAIN TO ME THE NEW mRNA VACCINE YOU'RE GOING TO DO FOR FLU THAT'S GOING TO BE RELEASED NEXT WEEK.

HOW IS THAT DIFFERENT FROM THE REGULAR FLU VACCINE THAT I COULD GET OTHERWISE.

>> WELL, LOOK, THE REGULAR FLU VACCINES THAT ARE AVAILABLE TYPICALLY ARE EITHER BASICALLY PROTEINS THAT ARE MADE USING EGGS.

THIS IS AN OLD, OLD TECHNOLOGY, BUT A RELIABLE ONE.

AND SO THEREFORE PEOPLE -- THERE IS AN EXPRESSION OF THE PROTEIN, THE ACTUAL ANTIGENS YOU WANT TO INTRODUCE INTO THE BODY, PURIFIED, CONVERTED INTO A VIAL AND GIVEN.

THIS IS A PROTEIN- BASED VACCINE.

THERE IS ALSO OTHER VACCINES THAT ARE MADE IN OTHER SYSTEMS THAT ARE WHAT'S CALLED EXPRESSED OR USING TRADITIONAL RECOMBINANT DNA TECHNOLOGIES.

THOSE ARE THE CURRENT STATE-OF-THE-ART AND THEY'VE BEEN AROUND FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

WE ARE DOING THE SAME THING, BUT WITH RNA.

WHERE WE TAKE AN RNA SPECIFIC THROUGH THE PARTICULAR STRAINS OF FLU THAT ARE PREVALENT AND CREATE AN COCKTAIL THAT IS DELIVERED MUCH LIKE THE OTHER APPLICATIONS OF mRNA, AND SAME IMMUNE RESPONSE, BUT NOW GOING AFTER DIFFERENT MESSAGES, DIFFERENT TARGETS ALLOW US TO COMBAT THE SEASONAL FLU.

WHILE WE'RE AT IT, I SHOULD MENTION WE'VE ALSO BEEN WORKING ON A POTENTIAL PANDEMIC FLU STRAIN.

AS YOU KNOW, H5N1 IS A HIGHLY PROBLEMATIC BIRD FLU THAT'S BEEN CAUSING HAVOC IN MANY DIFFERENT ANIMAL SPECIES.

NOT YET AS MUCH IN HUMANS, BUT IT COULD -- IT IS A THREAT.

SO WE ARE AS WELL USING THE TECHNOLOGY, BUT A DIFFERENT SET OF VARIANTS TO GO AFTER H5N1.

SO THIS IS GOING TO BE A RELATABLE TECHNOLOGY ACROSS MANY DIFFERENT INFECTIONS.

YOU MAY KNOW THAT WE HAVE A VACCINE UNDER LATE STAGE DEVELOPMENT AGAINST NOROVIRUS FOR WHICH THERE ISN'T A VACCINE, THE ONE THAT CAUSES TRAVELERS DIARRHEA.

THERE ARE OTHER VACCINES WE'RE ALSO CONSIDERING.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A PLATFORM.

WE BELIEVE IT'S HERE TO STAY.

AND IT'S GOT TO EARN ITS PLACE ALONGSIDE THE TRADITIONAL VACCINE TECHNOLOGIES, WHICH HAVE SERVED HUMANITY QUITE WELL AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO.

>> WHEN WE TALKED EARLIER THIS YEAR ON THIS SHOW, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE CUTS THAT WERE BEING DONE IN RESEARCH FUNDING BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

YOU SAID THOSE COULD HAVE BAD, NEGATIVE EFFECTS ON OUR ABILITY TO KEEP UP WITH CHINA AND OTHERS IN CREATING DRUGS.

TO WHAT EXTENT COULD THIS NEW DRUG THAT YOU'VE DONE FOR MELANOMA, THIS NEW TREATMENT FOR MELANOMA, COULD IT HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT FEDERAL RESEARCH DOLLARS?

AND ARE YOU STILL WORRIED ABOUT THE CUTBACK OF FEDERAL RESEARCH DOLLARS?

>> YES.

I MEAN, I THINK, WALTER, AND YOU KNOW THIS VERY, VERY WELL, BECAUSE YOU STUDIED THE WHOLE SCIENTIFIC ENTERPRISE, THE ACADEMIC RESEARCH UNDERLIES ALL OF THE DOWNSTREAM APPLIED WORK THAT THEN LEADS TO IMPORTANT PRODUCTS THAT HUMANITY BENEFITS FROM, WHETHER IT'S DRUGS OR NEW ENERGY SOLUTIONS OR NEW SOURCES OF FOOD, ET CETERA.

SO IF I THINK OF IT AS THE FOUNDATION.

IF WE CAN --IF WE LOOSEN THE FOUNDATION, IT REALLY BECOMES PROBLEMATIC ON WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO BUILD ABOVE IT.

SO THE WAY IT WORKS IS PEOPLE WILL DO SCIENCE, AS I MENTIONED EARLIER, MOVE UNKNOWN THINGS INTO THE DOMAIN OF KNOWN THINGS BY EXPERIMENTATION, BY CRITICAL THOUGHT AND DEBATES.

THAT PROCESS THEN BECOMES A SUBSTRATE FROM WHICH WE THEN MAKE PRODUCTS, WHETHER IT'S THE mRNA FOR CANCER OR MANY, MANY OTHER DRUGS AND SOLUTIONS.

SO IF YOU STARVE THE UNDERLYING FOUNDATIONAL SCIENCE, SOMETIMES PEOPLE CALL THIS BASIC RESEARCH.

I DON'T PARTICULARLY SUBSCRIBE TO THAT BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING BASIC ABOUT IT.

IT'S ACTUALLY ALL ENABLING.

ENABLING RESEARCH WOULD BE A BETTER DESCRIPTOR BECAUSE WITHOUT IT, WE CAN'T DO THESE OTHER THINGS.

SO IT'S BY DEFINITION ENABLING.

BUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ENABLING AND APPLIED RESEARCH WHICH IS WHAT INDUSTRY OFTEN FUNDS IS IN APPLIED RESEARCH YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PRODUCT IN MIND.

IN ENABLING RESEARCH, YOU JUST HAVE A CAPABILITY IN MIND, YOU KNOW, WHAT IF I COULD MAKE A MATERIAL THAT'S ONE TIMES STRONGER THAN ANY OTHER MATERIAL MAN HAS EVER SEEN.

WELL, ANSWERING THAT QUESTION WILL ALLOW YOU TO MAKE LIGHTER AIRPLANES, ALLOW YOU TO MAKE ROCKETS THAT GO --ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE INDEPENDENT.

SO TO ME, ANY SCIENTIFIC SUCCESS IN THE FORM OF PRODUCTS SHOULD BE A REMINDER THAT THE FOUNDATION IS WHAT WE NEED TO REINFORCE.

BY THE WAY, OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE COMPETING ABSOLUTELY ARE FOLLOWING THE EXAMPLE THAT THE U. S. SET GOING BACK TO THE MID PART OF THE LAST CENTURY AND BENEFITTED FROM.

I THINK THIS IS AN IMPORTANT DEBATE THE COUNTRY IS HAVING.

WE'VE EXPRESSED OUR VIEWS THAT THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD IS THE BEST WAY FOR US TO NAVIGATE THE UNKNOWN.

AND EVERYBODY IS WELCOME TO PARTICIPATE IN IT.

AND THE KEY DIFFERENCE, THOUGH, IS IN THE WORLD OF SCIENCE, YOU HAVE TO ARGUE WITH FACTS.

OPINIONS AND FACTS CANNOT BE INTERCHANGEABLE.

AND I THINK THIS IS WHERE THE POLITICIZATION OF SCIENCE, NOT QUITE POLITICAL SCIENCE, BUT POLITICIZED SCIENCE IS PROBLEMATIC BECAUSE THERE IT'S REALLY PEOPLE'S OPINION THAT DOMINATES, NOT THE FACTS.

AND I THINK WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SAY NO, NO, I NO MORE WANT SOMEBODY'S OPINION TO GOVERNOR WHAT MEDICAL TREATMENT I RECEIVE BUT RATHER FACTS AND WHAT THE SOCIETY, THE INDUSTRY, THE MEDICAL SOCIETY THAT IS EXPERT DECIDES, THEN I WOULD IN TRYING TO RELY RELY ON WHERE WE SHOULD DIVERT AND INVEST MONEY, RESEARCH MONEY.

WE SHOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH THE WAY WE ARE FUNDING THE RESEARCH ESTABLISHMENT, AND THEN REAP THE BENEFITS OF IT THROUGH THE ENTREPRENEURIAL ENGINE WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY THAT IS INCOMPARABLE TO ANYBODY ELSE.

I THINK WE HAVE A HUGE ADVANTAGE THERE.

>> NOUBAR AFEYAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> POSSIBLY REALLY EXCITING FOR FUTURE.

> >> AND FINALLY, GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND CAREFULLY IN THIS CASE MEET HUGO, THE TALLEST HORSE IN THE WORLD WHO TOWERS OVER HIS OWNER.

THE 6'5" STALLION IS ONE OF THE NEW GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDERS.

OTHER WINNERS INCLUDE THE WORLD'S NARROWEST CAR, A FOOT JUGGLER, AND EVEN A GIANT HAIR DRYER.

>> I THINK IT'S REALLY EXCITING BECAUSE WHEN I WAS LITTLE, I WOULD LOOK AT THE GUINNESS WORLD RECORD BOOKS, AND I WOULD SEE ALL THESE AMAZING PEOPLE.

AND NOW TO SEE MYSELF IN THE BOOK IS SO INSPIRING.

>> AND ONE WOMAN FROM THE UNITED STATES SPENT A DECADE COLLECTING OVER 13,000 MODEL FROGS.

NOW SHE SAYS HER TASK IS COMPLETE.

WE THOUGHT WE'D HAVE A BIT OF FUN FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD TO END OUR SHOW TODAY.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

COM/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.