ABDALLAH: I AM ABDALLAH FAYYAD.

NOT ON GREATER BOSTON, ALLOWING FOR MORE MULTIFAMILY HOMEBUILDING AROUND MBTA STATIONS, MANY CITIES AND TOWNS CANNOT AGREE ON HOW TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN INCLUDING BROOKLINE.

I WILL GET AN INSIDE LOOK AT THE CONFLICTS AND EFFORTS TO COMPROMISE.

PLUS NEARLY FIVE DECADES AGO BOSTON WAS THE CENTER OF RACIST UNREST OVER THE START OF INTEGRATED BUSING.

A DOCUMENTARY IS PRAISING THE VIOLENCE AND ITS IMPACT FELT TODAY -- TRACING THE VIOLENCE AND ITS IMPACT FELT TODAY.

REZONING AREAS AROUND MBTA STATIONS TO MAKE ROOM FOR MORE HOUSING.

THAT IS THROUGH THE MBTA COMMUNITIES ACT TO ENCOURAGE THE USE OF PUBLIC TRANSIT, ALL CITIES AND TOWNS CONNECTED TO THE SUBWAY HAVE UNTIL THE END OF THIS YEAR TO COMPLY.

MANY COMMUNITIES, THE PROCESS HAS BEEN COMPLICATED, AND CONTENTIOUS INCLUDING BROOKLINE WHERE FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION CHRIS DEMPSY IS PART OF A WORKING GROUP ON A COMPROMISE.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

GIVE US A LAY OF THE LAND.

WHERE DOES BROOKLINE STAND TOWARDS COMPLYING WITH THE MBTA COMMUNITIES ACT?

CHRIS: BECAUSE IT IS A COMMUNITY WITH SUBWAY SERVICE IT HAS TO COMPLY WITH THIS ACT BEFORE MANY OTHER COMMUNITIES ACROSS MASSACHUSETTS.

THERE ARE 177 CITIES AND TOWNS THAT HAS ZONING THAT REFLECTS THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS ACT.

MOST COMMUNITIES HAVE DO IT BY THE END OF NEXT YEAR.

ABDALLAH: WHAT HAPPENS IF THE TOWN DOES NOT COMPLY?

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS THREATENED TO SUE JURISDICTIONS WHO DO NOT COMPLY.

WE HAVE A QUOTE WHERE SHE SAYS COMPLIANCE WITH THE ZONING LAWS NOT ONLY MANDATORY IT IS AN ESSENTIAL TOOL FOR THE COMMONWEALTH TO ADDRESS ITS HOUSING CRISIS ALONG WITH OUR CLIMATE AND TRANSPORTATION GOALS.

WHAT IS AT STAKE IF THE TOWN MEETING DOES NOT MEET THE DEADLINE?

CHRIS: THE ATTORNEY GENERAL SHOULD BE APPLAUDED FOR BEING CLEAR THAT SHE BELIEVES THIS IS NOT JUST A CHOICE, IT IS A REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW.

I THINK SHE IS RIGHT AND IT IS IMPORTANT THAT SHE IS SAYING THAT.

WHAT IT DOES IS IT PUTS A LITTLE BIT OF FRIENDLY PRESSURE ON OUR COMMUNITY LIKE BROOKLINE WHO I THINK VOTED FOR THE GENERAL LIKE 80-20 IN THE LAST ELECTION.

MANY PEOPLE REALLY LIKE HER AND SHE IS SAYING YOU HAVE TO DO A LITTLE BIT BETTER ON HOUSING.

IF WE GOT TO THE END OF THIS CALENDAR YEAR AND HE DID NOT HAVE THE COMPLIANCE ZONING, WE HAVE ACTION WE NEED TO TAKE.

WHO WOULD BE OPENED UP TO ALL SORTS OF LAWSUITS WHETHER IT WOULD BE -- WE WOULD BE OPENED UP TO ALL SORTS OF LAWSUITS, BROOKLINE IS NO LONGER IN COMPLIANCE, IT IS NOT IN COMPLIANCE AND IT HAS AN OBLIGATION AND A REQUIREMENT TO DO SO.

IN THAT CASE, YOU CAN SEE THAT A JUDGE MAY STEP IN AND WRITE THE CODE FOR BROOKLINE.

IT IS A POTENTIAL OUTCOME OF US NOT BEING IN COMPLIANCE.

SOME FRIENDLY AND UNFRIENDLY PRESSURE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE TOWN IS LIVING UP TO THE OBLIGATIONS OF THE ACT.

ABDALLAH: YOU ARE ONE OF THE FIRST TOWNS TO BE COMPLYING WITH THE ACT.

LEXINGTON PASSED REFORMS EARLIER THIS YEAR.

HAVE YOU BEEN LOOKING AT OTHER TOWNS TO SEE MODELS OF POTENTIALLY HEALTHY COMPLY WITH THE COMMUNITIES ACT THAT YOU THOUGHT WERE GOOD -- BUT EVENTUALLY COMPLY WITH THE COMMUNITIES ACT YOU THOUGHT WERE GOOD?

CHRIS: KUDOS TO LEXINGTON, THEY PASSED THEIR ZONING A YEAR AHEAD OF WHEN THEY WERE REQUIRED TO DO IT.

THEY CO COMPROMISE ACROSS MANY COMMUNITIES.

ONE WAY THAT BROOKLINE IS UNIQUE FOR A COMMUNITY IT IS STILL A TALENT FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

JUST AS MILTON IS.

EVERY OTHER COMMUNITY IN THAT ENTER CORE IS A CITY.

THEIR ZONING HAS TO BE APPROVED BY CITY COUNCIL.

IN OUR CASE IT IS A TOWN MEETING.

WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE ELECTED IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS, IT IS A MESSY, SMALL DEMOCRATIC FORM OF GOVERNMENT.

WE DO NOT ALWAYS AGREE, WE HAVE LOUD AND NOISY DEBATES.

OFTEN WHAT YOU SEE IS THAT DIFFERENT GROUPS OF PEOPLE CAN COME TOGETHER AND POURED SOME COMPROMISE.

THE-- AND FORTE SOME COMPROMISE.

THE CONSENSUS PLAN IS AGREED TO BY THE MAJORITY OF THE SELECT BOARD AND THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT AND OTHERS IN TOWN.

IT WOULD DO REZONING IN MUL EXISTING MULTI-FAMILY ZONING THAT ALLOWS FOR MORE PUBLIC HOUSING AND TO ALSO REZONE THE CORRIDOR OF HARBOR STREET WHICH IS THE MAIN COMMERCIAL CORRIDOR THAT GOES NORTH AND SOUTH IN THE TOWN, OR THE BUS RUNS AND ONE OF THE BUSIEST + CITY GREATER BOSTON AND WAS -- THE BUSIEST GRADE CITY CENTER, THE CORRIDOR IS IN NEED OF ATTENTION THAT IS A JEWEL OF OUR COMMUNITY.

IT COULD BE IMPROVED THROUGH REFORM OF ZONING OUT OF THE IS WHAT WE ARE HOPING TO DO.

ABDALLAH: THERE ARE A LOT OF FEELINGS AND STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT HOUSING WHEN IT COMES UP IN A COMMUNITY.

ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS THAT OPPONENTS HAVE RAISED THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS ESPECIALLY WHEN THE PLANNING BOARD SUBMITTED THEIR FIRST IDEA, A ROUGH IDEA OF WHAT THEY THOUGHT SHOULD BE REZONED AROUND HARBOR STREET IS THE CONCERN ABOUT COMMERCIAL SPACES AND WHETHER OR NOT THERE WOULD BE ENOUGH COMMERCIAL SPACE SAVED.

HOW WOULD THAT PLAN ENSURE THAT THAT CONCERN IS ADDRESSED?

CHRIS: THE ORIGINAL REGULATIONS THAT WERE PROPAGATED BY THE STATE SAID THAT CITIES AND TOWNS COULD NOT REQUIRE FIRST FLOOR COMMERCIAL.

THEY COULD ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN, BUT THEY COULD NOT MAKE IT A REQUIREMENT OF THE ZONING.

IN AUGUST OF THE STATE UPDATED THOSE REGULATIONS OR GUIDELINES.

INDICATED THAT IN FACT, CITIES AND TOWNS LIKE BROOKLINE COULD REQUIRE COMMERCIAL ON THE FIRST FLOOR.

THAT HAS WON OVER SOME OF THE OPPONENTS OF THE INITIAL PROPOSAL WHO WERE CONCERNED THAT LITTLE SMALL BUSINESSES, SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS WOULD BE DISPLACED AND INSTEAD LUXURY HOUSING WOULD COME IN.

IT HAS BEEN GREAT FOR BROOKLINE THAT THAT CHANGE HAPPENED.

WE WANT A MIXED USE, VIBRANT, WALKABLE COMMUNITY.

WHAT I SAY TO MY FRIENDS IN BROOKLINE WHO ARE OPPOSED TO ANY CHANGE, ANY ZONING REFORM IS THAT IS WHAT MAKES BROOKLINE SO GREAT.

IT IS TRANSIT ORIENTED, IT HAS DIVERSITY OF HOUSING AND DIVERSITY OF THINGS YOU CAN DO IN A COMMUNITY.

BROOKLINE IS BY NO MEANS UNIQUE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

WHAT THIS LEGISLATION IS TRYING TO DO IS BIG ADVANTAGE OF THE FACT THAT SO MANY OF OUR COMMUNITIES WERE BUILT AROUND DOWNTOWN THAT HAD TRANSIT SERVICE AND THAT GROUP IN A WALKABLE WAY OR YOU CAN GET ON A TRAIN AND GET INTO BOSTON -- THAT GREW INTO A WALKABLE WAY AND YOU CAN GET INTO BOSTON, WE HAVE ENCOURAGED MORE SPRAWLING DEVELOPMENT, YOU MAY LIVE IN A HOME YOU CANNOT WALK DOWNTOWN.

IT IS REALLY BAD WHEN WE ARE LOOKING AT REDUCING HOUSING COSTS AND THE MILES PEOPLE HAVE TO DRIVE TO GET ACCESS TO A JOB OR SCHOOL, LOCAL AIR POLLUTION.

WE ARE TRYING TO RETURN TO WHAT MADE MASSACHUSETTS AND NEW ENGLAND SO SPECIAL.

ABDALLAH: I WANTED TO ASK ABOUT THAT BECAUSE YOU LIKE YOUR HISTORY AND YOUR SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION KNOWS A LOT ABOUT THE COMMONWEALTH HISTORY.

BROOKLINE HAS A RICH HISTORY OF BEING A STREETCAR SUBURB.

HOUSING AND DEVELOPMENT IS ALWAYS SCARY FOR A LOT OF FOLKS.

NOT JUST FOR ANY SINISTER REASON, BUT BECAUSE CHANGE IS HARD.

HOW DOES THE MBTA COMMUNITIES ACT WELL INTO THE HISTORY OF BROOKLINE BEING A DENSE STREETCAR SUBURB FROM BOSTON?

IS IT PART OF THAT RICH HISTORY OF THE STREETCAR SUBURB OR IS IT ACTUALLY TAKING IT TOO FAR?

CHRIS: THIS IS EMBRACING THAT HISTORY.

THE TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM THAT WE NEED IN THE FUTURE ACTUALLY LOOKS A LOT LIKE THE ONE WE HAD AROUND 1900 OR 1910 IN GREATER BOSTON.

PEOPLE WHO HAD A LOT OF OPTIONS OF HOW TO GET AROUND WHETHER IT WAS WALKING, BIKING, TAKING TRANSIT OR DRIVING OR TAKING A HORSE TO GO THAT FAR BACK.

PEOPLE HAD GOOD OPTIONS.

WHEN YOU HAVE WORN DOWN THOSE OPTIONS OVER TIME -- WE HAVE WORN DOWN THOSE OPTIONS OVER TIME.

IF YOU ARE RELIABLE BUS AND SUBWAY LINES AT AND THERE WERE BACK THEN.

WHAT THIS ACT IS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH, I THINK, ULTIMATELY, IS TRYING TO ADDRESS A MAJOR PAIN POINT FOR FAMILIES IN MASSACHUSETTS.

IT IS SO EXPENSIVE TO LIVE AND STAY HERE.

THE TWO MOST EXPENSIVE PARTS OF ANY FAMILY'’S BUDGET IS HOUSING AND TRANSPORTATION.

FOR SOME OF THOSE FAMILIES, THE COST OF THOSE TWO ITEMS IS 50 OR 60 OR 70% OF THEIR MONTHLY BUDGET.

WHAT THIS ACT WILL ALLOW PEOPLE TO DO IS LIVE CLOSER TO TRANSIT, HAVE MORE HOUSING SUPPLY WHICH SHOULD HELP THEM DOWN OR AT LEAST STOP THE CRAZY INCREASES IN HOUSING COSTS.

MAYBE ALLOW THEM TO GO FROM A TWO CAR HOUSEHOLD TO A ONE CORE HOUSEHOLD.

THAT CAN SAVE THEM $8,000 A YEAR.

GETTING A T PASS INSTEAD.

FOR SAVING A THOUSAND DOLLARS BECAUSE ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY IS COMMUTING BY MBTA .

IN AN ERA OF INFLATION AND SO MANY PEOPLE'’S BUDGETS ARE STRETCHED THIN, THIS IS GETTING AT THE CORE PROBLEM AND IT WILL NOT CHANGE OVERNIGHT BUT IT IS THE DIRECTION WE HAVE TO MOVE IN.

ABDALLAH: THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO WILL ALWAYS SAY THAT THIS DOES NOT GO FAR ENOUGH, ONE THING ABOUT THE MBTA COMMUNITIES ACT IS IT ASKS TOWNS TO REASON BUT THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT FOR NEW DEVELOPMENT.

AFTER BROOKLINE PASSES THIS, HOW CAN YOU MAKE SURE THAT DEVELOPERS ACTUALLY DO INCREASE THE DENSITY IN BROOKLINE?

CHRIS: HOUSING DOES NOT CHANGE OVERNIGHT.

I LIVE IN A HOUSE THAT WAS BUILT IN 1918.

IT HAS BEEN AROUND OVER 100 YEARS AT THIS POINT AS ARE MOST OF THE HOUSES ARE ON MY BLOCK.

WHEN YOU BUILD IT, IT CAN LAST FOR A LONG TIME.

WHEN YOU GET STARTED ON BEING A STATE THAT BUILDS ONE HOUSING LIKE WE USED TO ASHLEY NEED TO START BE -- WE NEED TO START BEING A STATE THAT BUILT HOUSING LIKE WE USED TO.

7000 ADDITIONAL HOUSING UN ITS.

OTHERS HAVE SIMILAR UNITS.

THAT MIGHT SOUND LIKE A LOT OF UNITS BUT IT IS SAYING THAT THE ZONING MUST ALLOW THAT.

IT IS NOT SAYING THAT THOSE UNITS WILL SHOW UP ON DAY ONE.

IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL SHOW UP ON DAY 10, OR A YEAR 10.

OR THE THIRD OR FOURTH DECADE.

IT IS SAYING LET US ALLOW ZONING THAT GETS CONSISTENT WITH THE HISTORICAL CHARACTER OF THE COMMUNITIES.

IT IS LEGAL IN BROOKLINE TODAY TO BUILD A SINGLE-FAMILY HOME ESSENTIALLY ANYWHERE ACROSS THE ENTIRE TOWN.

IT IS ILLEGAL TO BUILD A TRIPLE-DECKER ANYWHERE ACROSS THE ENTIRE TOWN.

WE SCRATCH OUR HEADS AND SAY WHAT IS HOUSING SO EXPENSIVE?

OUR ZONING DICTATES MORE EXPENSIVE FORMS OF HOUSING.

WHAT THIS ACT IS ALLOWING OR PERMITTING OR ENCOURAGING BROOKLINE TO DO IS REFORM THAT SO IT CAN BE A LITTLE BIT MORE ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYBODY.

ABDALLAH: JUST TO CLOSE THIS OUT, ONE CONCERN I HEARD FROM SOME OPPONENTS IS THE STATE HAS NOT GIVEN THE TOWNS ENOUGH TIME TO COMPLY OR COME UP WITH THE LONG-TERM PLANNING EFFORT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE CONCERNS?

HAS BROOKLINE HAD ENOUGH TIME?

CHRIS: WE HAVE HAD DECADES TO REFORM OUR HOUSING AND HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO DO IT.

THE STATE PASSED THIS LAW IN 2021, THIS WAS COMING.

WE HAVE HAD A GOOD TWO YEARS NOW TO GET THIS RIGHT.

THE PLAN THAT THE PLANNING DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN FOR HAS BEEN THROUGH COUNTLESS PUBLIC MEETINGS AND SHAPED BY THAT PUBLIC INPUT AND THE SELECT BOARD, THE VARIOUS COMMITTEES THAT FORM TOWN GOVERNMENT IN BROOKLINE.

THIS IS THE RIGHT PLAN AT THE RIGHT TIME AND IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

ABDALLAH: WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

NEARLY 50 YEARS AGO BOSTON POLICE OFFICERS STOOD GUARD OUTSIDE OF SCHOOLS IN SOUTH BOSTON AS LACK AND WHITE STUDENTS WERE BLESSED WITH A DIFFERENT CITY SCHOOLS FOR THE FIRST TIME.

THE PROGRAM ESTABLISHED TO BE IN FEDERAL COURT DESEGREGATION ORDER WAS MET WITH OVERWHELMING DISPLAYS OF RACISM AND, ANGER, AND VIOLENCE.

>> IT IS CLEAR THAT WHITES DID NOT WANT BLACKS IN THEIR SCHOOL AND ACTING IN THE SAME WAY AS VIOLENT WHITES IN THE SOUTH.

>> IT WAS AN ANGRY, ANGRY TIME, NO MATTER WHAT WE SAID, ALL OF THESE PEOPLE WE LOOKED UP TO IN OUR LIVES WERE TURNING AGAINST US.

>> YOU COULD FEEL THE PALPABLE FEAR AND ANIMOSITY THAT JUST HUNG OVER THE CITY, LIKE AN EXPLOSION JUST WAITING FOR A MATCH.

TO BE LIT.

ABDALLAH: THAT DAY WAS THE BEGINNING OF A LONG FIGHT WITH LONG LASTING IMPACTS ALL OF WHICH IS COVERED IN THE NEW DOCUMENTARY FROM AMERICAN EXPERIENCE , THE BUSING BATTLEGROUND .

SHARON GRIMBERG AND CYNDEE READDEAN WROTE THE DOCUMENTARY.

I WATCHED IT LAST NIGHT, I WANTED TO START WITH YOU AND ASKING ABOUT HOW THIS DOCUMENTARY CAME TOGETHER.

WHAT WAS THE INSPIRATION FOR STARTING THIS PROJECT?

SHARON: I WAS NOT PRESENT, MY SON WHO WAS 14 WAS ASSIGNED TO READ COMMON GROUND.

A PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING BOOK ABOUT THE DESEGREGATION OF SCHOOLS IN BOSTON.

I FELT A LITTLE ASHAMED THAT HAVING LIVED FOR 25 YEARS I HAD NEVER READ THE BOOK.

I SAW HIM RITA AND I SUGGESTED TO GEORGE WHO IS THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE AND THEY ASKED ME TO INVESTIGATE AND I DID AND I REALIZED THAT LUCAS'’ A BOOK WHICH IS A TOUR DE FORCE OF RESEARCH IS A PARTICULAR STORY AND IT LEAVES OUT A LOT.

WHEN HE LEAVES OUT IS THE BLACK ACTIVISM -- WHAT HE LEAVES OUT IS THE BLACK ACTIVISM THAT PREDATES THE ORDER.

THEY HAD BEEN FIGHTING FOR 20 YEARS TO ACHIEVE SOME SORT OF EQUITY WITH THE WHITE SCHOOLS.

BLACK SCHOOLS WERE FAILING AND WERE INFERIOR.

THAT WAS A PIECE OF THE STORY THAT IS NOT REALLY COVERED IN COMMON GROUND AND THAT IS WHAT I THOUGHT WE COULD BRING TO THE TABLE.

LOOKING AT ALL OF IT, THE COMPLEXITY OF RACE AND CLASS.

ABDALLAH: WHAT EXCITED YOU ABOUT THE PROJECT?

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THIS STORY THAT TOLD YOU THAT YOU WANTED TO WORK ON THIS?

CYNDEE: SHARON INVITED ME TO COME ON OUT OF THE MORE SHE WOULD TELL ME ABOUT THE ACTIVISM OF BLACK BOSTONIANS DURING THIS TIME PERIOD AND THEIR EFFORT TO GET SCHOOL EQUITY AND GET A DECENT EDUCATION FOR THEIR CHILDREN.

IT EXCITED ME.

I HAD NEVER HEARD IT, IT WAS AN UNTOLD STORY.

I WAS HAPPY TO SIGN ON TO IT.

ABDALLAH: THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME I HAD HEARD ABOUT IT AS WELL.

I THINK YOU DID A NICE JOB OF THAT.

ONE THING ABOUT SCHOOL BUS IN PARTICULAR WAS ABOUT THE POLITICS OF THIS, IT WAS SUCH A DEEPLY UNPOPULAR THING TO DO.

SO FRAUGHT.

THE WHITE PARENTS IN BOSTON WERE VERY ANGRY ABOUT IT.

A LOT OF WHITE STUDENTS WERE TOO.

THERE WERE OPEN DISPLAYS OF RACISM.

A LOT WAS BEING ASKED OF BLACK PARENTS WHO WERE PUTTING THEIR KIDS IN DANGER TO BUST THEM TO THESE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SCHOOLS -- BUS THEM TO THESE PREDOMINANTLY WHITE SCHOOL.

THE DANGER THAT THESE PARENTS HAD TO PUT THEIR CHILDREN IN AND THE DECISIONS THEY MADE DURING THIS TIME.

>> ARE REPORTED TO KEVIN WHITE ON OPENING DAY THAT NO BLACK CHILD HAD BEEN KILLED.

WE THOUGHT THAT WAS A VICTORY.

IT WAS THE SADDEST DAY IN BOSTON'’S HISTORY.

IF A BLACK CHILD HAD BEEN KILLED , IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A CIVIL WAR.

>> BLACK LEADERS HAD TO MAKE A TOUGH DECISION TO ASK BLACK PARENTS TO STAY THE COURSE.

TOUGH DECISION.

ALL ALONG THE WAY, BLACK PARENTS HAVE HAD TO MAKE VERY DIFFICULT DECISIONS IN ORDER TO ASSERT THEIR RIGHTS AND USE THEIR KIDS IN THE PROCESS.

ABDALLAH: REPORTING OUT THIS DOCUMENTARY, DID YOU LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT THE STRUGGLE FOR RIGHTS WHEN IT CAME TO BLACK PARENTS?

WAS THIS TOO BIG OF A POLE FOR THEM OR DID PEOPLE THINK IN THE END IT WAS WORTH IT?

SHARON: I THINK THAT WHAT BLACK PARENTS WANTED WAS EDUCATION FOR THEIR KIDS.

WITH THAT AND THE NAACP, THE ONLY WAY TO GET THAT WAS TO GO INTO THE WHITE SCHOOLS WHERE THE MONEY WAS, THE WHITE FAMILIES WOULD INSIST ON A BETTER EDUCATION SO THE KIDS WOULD BE IN THE BETTER SCHOOLS.

IT WAS NOT THE ASK OF THE CHILDREN, IN FEBRUARY OF 275 746 BLACK -- OF 1975, CHILDREN ASKED YOU PLEASE DO NOT CONTINUE ON THIS PATH.

THE NAACP SAID THIS IS THE ISSUE, THIS IS THE WAY THAT THE LAWS BEING BROKEN BY SEGREGATING THE SCHOOLS.

BUT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL -- THAT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

THEY PROCEEDED DOWN THAT ROUTE AND CONTINUED TO REFINE THE PLAN AND BUS THE KIDS FOR A SECOND AND MANY MORE YEARS TO COME.

ABDALLAH: I WANTED TO ASK YOU, A LOT OF PEOPLE WHEN THEY LEARNED ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS IN AMERICA WE HEAR ABOUT SELMA AND MONTGOMERY, THE BUS BOYCOTTS.

WHY IS THE STORY OF BOSTON SUCH A NATIONALLY RESIDENT STORY?

-- IMPORTANT STORY?

CYNDEE: WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN BOSTON IN THE 1970'’S OUT OF SCHOOL EQUITY, PARENTAL RIGHTS, INCLUSIVE EDUCATION THESE ARE ISSUES WE ARE WRESTLING WITH TODAY AND FOR SOME REASON ACROSS THE COUNTRY PEOPLE ARE HAVING A HARD TIME AGREEING ON WHAT THOSE THINGS MEAN AND WHAT IS BEST FOR KIDS.

THESE ARE THE SAME ISSUES THAT PEOPLE IN BOSTON WERE WRESTLING WITH.

I FIND THE STORY RELEVANT.

EXTREMELY RELEVANT TODAY.

ABDALLAH: WE HAVE ANOTHER CLIP THAT DESCRIBES WHAT BOSTON WAS LIKE IN THE YEARS BEFORE BUSING.

THAT SETS THE TONE FOR WHY THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SO MUCH RESISTANCE TO THE PROGRAM.

>> BOSTON HAD BEEN A VERY WHITE CITY IN THE 1950'’S, PEOPLE COME UP FROM THE DEEP SOUTH.

THEY ARE COMING INTO THESE NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE PLAQUES ARE ALLOWED TO LIVE, THE SOUTH END, ROXBURY.

THEY CANNOT MOVE OUT BECAUSE OF RACIAL COVENANTS WRITTEN INTO THE DEEDS.

AT OR OUTSIDE OF THOSE BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS, THEY FACED TREMENDOUS DISCRIMINATION.

>> THEY WERE PATTERNS -- THERE WERE PATTERNS OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION EVERYWHERE, THEY DID NOT LIVE IN THE CITY.

>> THE NEIGHBORHOODS WERE THEIR OWN WORLDS, PEOPLE FROM SOUTH BOSTON DID NOT COME INTO ROXBURY , PEOPLE FROM ROXBURY TO AN EIGHT INTO SOUTH BOSTON.

-- GO INTO SOUTH BOSTON.

ABDALLAH: BOSTON HAS BECOME MUCH MORE DIVERSE AS A CITY.

AT THE SAME TIME IT IS STILL PRETTY SEGREGATED INCLUDING THE METRO AREA MORE BROADLY, VERY SEGREGATED.

WHAT LESSONS ARE THERE IN THIS DOCUMENTARY FOR PEOPLE TODAY?

WHAT LESSONS ABOUT HOW THEY CAN DESEGREGATE TODAY?

SHARON: I DO NOT KNOW I CAN SAY THAT -- HOW WE CAN DESEGREGATE TODAY.

I DID NOT MAKE THIS FILM TO POUR SALT INTO OLD WOUNDS.

A LOT OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 1960'’S AND 1970'’S HAPPENED BECAUSE THE COMMUNITIES WERE SO DISTANT FROM EACH OTHER AND ALSO BECAUSE THERE WAS A LOT OF DISTRUST.

I'’M HOPING THAT THE FILM WILL ALLOW PEOPLE TO STEP BACK AND LISTEN A LITTLE BIT TO THE FRUSTRATIONS OF BOTH COMMUNITIES.

THE CITIES HAVE COME -- THE CITY HAS COME FORWARD, SO MUCH MORE EDUCATION FOR CHILDREN.

THAT WAS A LAST THOUGHT AND NOT REALLY WELL ATTENDED TO.

I AM HOPING THAT PEOPLE CAN LEARN FROM AND LISTEN.

WE TRY TO PRESENT A LOT OF DIFFERENT VIEWPOINTS IN THE FILM.

TO UNDERSTAND SOME OF THE FRUSTRATIONS IN THE WHITE COMMUNITY AS WELL AS GREAT FRUSTRATION AND INJUSTICES THAT WERE BEING PERPETRATED ON THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

ABDALLAH: I WANTED TO ASK YOU, YOU MENTIONED THIS EARLIER, THERE ARE A LOT OF PARALLELS WITH SOME OF THE ISSUES COME UP IN THIS DOCUMENTARY AND ISSUES IN SCHOOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY TODAY.

NOTABLY WE ARE SEEING IN SOUTHERN STATES AND FLORIDA, SOME EFFORTS TO CHANGE THE KIND OF HISTORY THAT IS BEING TAUGHT.

ESPECIALLY BLACK HISTORY THAT IS BEING TAUGHT.

ARE THERE ANY PARALLELS THAT RESONATED WITH YOU IN LOOKING AT THIS HISTORY 50 YEARS AGO?

LOOKING AT THE CHARACTER OF THE SUPERINTENDENT OF THE BOSTON SCHOOLS WHO BOSTON BEING A NORTHERN LIBERAL CITY AT THE TIME SPOKE A LOT IN DOG WHISTLE THAT WE ARE MORE FAMILIAR WITH TODAY.

DID ANY OF THOSE PARALLELS STRIKE YOU AS INTERESTING FOR UNDERSTANDING TODAY'’S POLITICS AROUND SCHOOLS?

CYNDEE: YES.

IT DID.

LOWA STATE HICKS WAS A MASTER IN TALKING IN DOG WHISTLES.

YOU KNOW HOW I STAND WITH HER SLOGAN.

THE WINK WINK, NOD NOD, I AM AGAINST PUTTING BLACK KIDS IN SCHOOLS WITH MY WHITE CONSTITUENTS.

I WILL NOT DO THAT.

YOU VOTE FOR ME, YOU ARE SAFE.

I FEEL LIKE TODAY, THERE ARE DOG WHISTLES.

DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU SIT POLITICALLY, I THINK SOME OF THE THINGS AROUND PARENTAL RIGHTS IS IN SOME WAYS A DOG WHISTLE.

AND MEANS YOU DO NOT WANT TO TEACH BLACK HISTORY.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO TEACH A HISTORY OF PEOPLE WHO PERHAPS HAVE DIFFERENT LIFESTYLES.

SOME OF THESE THINGS ARE ALSO TREATED IN WAYS THAT WHIP PEOPLE UP INTO A FRENZY INSTEAD OF TALKING ABOUT EDUCATION AS A WAY TO INVOLVE ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE.

TO BE VERY INCLUSIVE IN HOW WE TEACH.

ABDALLAH: I HAVE A QUESTION FOR BOTH OF YOU.

YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON THIS TOPIC, IT IS A VERY RICH HISTORY HERE IN BOSTON.

IN PUTTING THIS TOGETHER, OR YOU -- WHAT IS SOMETHING THAT SURPRISED YOU ABOUT BOSTON OR THIS DESEGREGATION EFFORT?

WAS THERE ANYTHING THAT STOOD OUT TO EITHER OF YOU THAT WAS SOMETHING NEW THAT YOU MAY HAVE NOT HAVE CONSIDERED BEFORE WHEN THINKING ABOUT THE CIVIL RIGHTS STRUGGLE IN THE U.S.?

SHARON: I HAD NO IDEA THAT THERE WAS SUCH A LONG STRUGGLE HERE IN BOSTON FOR THE SCHOOL EQUITY.

I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THAT.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME IS HOW LITTLE THE SCHOOL COMMITTEE CARED ABOUT EDUCATION, ACTUALLY.

THEY SPENT VERY LITTLE ON THE SCHOOLS.

275 DOLLARS ON ELEMENTARY SCHOOL KIDS PER YEAR.

TINY AMOUNT OF MONEY.

THEY SPENT MOST OF THE TIME WORRYING ABOUT WHERE THEY WERE SIGNING TEACHERS, WHO WAS GETTING PROMOTED.

A LOT OF THE TIME WAS SPENT BY TEACHERS CONTRIBUTING TO SCHOOL COMMITTEE MEMBERS.

A LOT OF CORRUPTION AND VERY LITTLE FOCUS ON TEACHING THE KIDS.

ABDALLAH: WE HAVE 15 SECONDS, IT ANYTHING STAND OUT TO YOU -- IT ANYTHING STAND OUT TO YOU?

CYNDEE: IT SURPRISED ME HOW ALIVE THIS HISTORY IS STILL TODAY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THROUGH IT.

LIMPED THROUGH THE YEARS COMING UP THROUGH THE DESEGREGATION -- LIVED THROUGH THE YEARS COMING UP THROUGH THE DESEGREGATION, THE ANGER, THE HOPE, OR MAY REGRETFUL, PEOPLE ARE STILL WRESTLING WITH WHAT IT MEANT.

ABDALLAH: THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME TODAY AND CONGRATULATIONS ON THE DOCUMENTARY.

SHARON: THANK YOU.

CYNDEE: THANK YOU.

ABDALLAH: THE BUSING BATTLEGROUND PREMIERES TONIGHT ON PBS.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT, COME BACK TOMORROW, WE DISCUSSED THE STATE OF THE STUDENT LOAN CRISIS AS THE MORATORIUM ON PAYMENTS COMES TO AN END.

HOW OTHER COUNTRIES HANDLE THE COST OF COLLEGE.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, GOOD NIGHT.

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