BOSTON," AFTER A MAJOR UKRAINIAN OFFENSIVE FORCED RUSSIAN FORCES OUT OF A KEY NORTHERN REGION OVER THE WEEKEND, IS THE COUNTRY CLOSER TO BEATING BACK ITS INVADERS FOR GOOD?

SENIOR ADVISOR FOR M.I.T.

'S SECURITY STUDIES PROGRAM, CAROL SAIVETZ, AND TOM NICHOLS, AUTHOR OF "THE ATLANTIC'S" "PEACEFIELD" NEWSLETTER, JOIN ME.

PLUS, 60 YEARS TO THE DAY AFTER PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY VOWED TO PUT A MAN ON THE MOON, PRESIDENT BIDEN CAME TO BOSTON, AND THE J.F.K.

LIBRARY, TO TALK ABOUT HIS "CANCER MOONSHOT" INITIATIVE.

THEN, LATER, "BOSTON GLOBE" C.E.O.

LINDA PIZZUTI HENRY JOINS ME ON BIG CHANGES AT THE PAPER.

THIS WEEK'S "GLOBE SUMMIT" ON THE FUTURE OF THE REGION AND A SHOUT-OUT FROM THE LATEST INDUCTEE TO THE BASEBALL HALL OF FAME.

>> Braude: UKRAINIAN FLAGS ARE ONCE AGAIN FLYING OVER SEVERAL KEY CITIES IN THE NORTHERN KHARKIV REGION FOR THE FIRST TIME IN FIVE MONTHS, AFTER A MASSIVE COUNTER-OFFENSIVE OVER THE WEEKEND FORCED RUSSIAN TROOPS TO RETREAT.

KREMLIN MILITARY OFFICIALS ACKNOWLEDGE LEAVING NEARLY ALL OF THE REGION YOU SEE HERE IN BLUE, A DEFEAT THAT EXPERTS SAY COULD BE A DECISIVE MOMENT IN THE 200-DAY WAR.

SINCE THE OFFENSIVE BEGAN, AMERICAN MILITARY OFFICIALS ESTIMATE AROUND 500 RUSSIAN TROOPS HAVE BEEN KILLED OR WOUNDED EACH DAY, AND WHILE ESTIMATES OF UKRAINE'S LOSSES VARY GREATLY, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS AND CIVILIANS ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN KILLED OR WOUNDED SINCE THE WAR BEGAN, AND CLEARLY, IT'S FAR FROM OVER.

I'M JOINED BY TOM NICHOLS, AN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS EXPERT, REGULAR CONTRIBUTOR TO "THE ATLANTIC" AND AUTHOR OF ITS "PEACEFIELD" NEWSLETTER.

AND CAROL SAIVETZ, A SENIOR ADVISOR FOR M.I.T.

'S SECURITY STUDIES PROGRAM AND RESEARCH ASSOCIATE AT HARVARD'S DAVIS CENTER FOR RUSSIAN AND EURASIAN STUDIES, AND THE HARVARD UKRAINIAN INSTITUTE.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE BOTH OF YOU THP THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS.

>> Braude: CAROL, DOUD MIND IF I ASK YOU, REPEAT WHAT YOU ASKED TOM RIGHT BEFORE WE WENT ON THE AIR?

>> NO, WHAT I ASKED TOM WAS WHETHER OR NOT HE THOUGHT HE WOULD SEE WHAT WE ARE SEEING WITH THE ROUT RUSSIAN FORCES AND THE MAJOR UKRAINIAN SUCCESSES IN THE REGION AROUND KHARKIV AND EVEN GOING INTO THE OTHER REGIONS.

>> Braude: WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER TO YOUR OWN QUESTION, CAROL?

>> I'M SURPRISED.

I'M-- FRANKLY, I'VE BEEN SORT OF CHEERING THE UKRAINIANS ON, AND I HAVE TO BE HONEST ABOUT THAT.

BUT I THINK IT REALLY SHOWS UP WHAT MANY OF US HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG ABOUT THE LACK OF PREPAREDNESS, THE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF BATTLEFIELD, THE CORRUPTION AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT HAS BEEN AFFLICTING THE RUSSIAN MILITARY FROM THE BEGINNING.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE STORIES TODAY THAT THE RUSSIAN GENERALS ARE UPSET AND THAT THE HEAD OF CHECK NEAH, ONE OF THE MAJOR FIGHTERS, SAYS HE'S GOING TO TELL HIM HOW IT REALLY IS.

THEY JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND.

AND PUTIN, APPARENTLY, CANCELED A BIG MEETING TODAY WITH THE MILITARY LEADERSHIP.

>> Braude: TOM, YOU CAN ANSWER HER QUESTION IF YOU CHOOSE, BUT IN ADDITION, IS THIS-- DO YOU SEE THIS AS JUST A ONE-TIME HEARTENING MOMENT FOR DEMOCRACY OR POTENTIALLY A WAR-ALTERING ONE?

>> WELL, THERE ARE TWO THINGS.

ONE IS, I DIDN'T EXPECT TO SEE IT AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS WAR BECAUSE THERE WERE THINGS THAT WERE GOING ON THAT REALLY WERE HAPPENING LAYERS DEEP IN BOTH THE RUSSIAN AND THE UKRAINIAN MILITARIES.

ONE OF THEM THAT I THINK WE DIDN'T EXPECT WAS HOW QUICKLY THE UKRAINIAN MILITARY COULD DO THINGS LIKE DEVELOP A NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER CORPS AND START GETTING UP TO WESTERN STANDARDSES IN THE SPACE OF ONLY SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS, WHICH ISN'T THAT LONG.

THE OTHER IS I THINK WE REALLY UNDERESTIMATED THE DEGREE TO WHICH THE RUSSIANS HAD IMPOVERISHED THEIR OWN MILITARY, BASICALLY BY JUST STEALING MONEY OUT OF THE DEFENSE BUDGET AND THE IMMENSE CORRUPTION THAT WAS BEHIND THE DEFENSE BUDGET THAT DOOMED THEIR WHOLE ATTEMPT TO CREATE A MORE PROFESSIONAL ARMY.

SO, YEAH, IN THAT SENSE, I DIDN'T EXPECT TO SEE THIS.

I'M SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN THE IDEA THAT THIS IS THE ULTIMATE TURNING POINT OF THE WAR OR THAT IT'S NOT THAT BIG A DEAL.

IT'S A BIG DEAL.

THIS IS A REALLY BIG DEAL TO HAVE THE RUSSIAN MILITARY FLEEING POSITIONS AND LEAVING ITS EQUIPMENT BEHIND SO FAST THAT THE UKRAINIANS COULDN'T KEEP UP WITH THE RUSSIANS RUNNING IN FRONT OF THEM.

BUT, THIS WAR IS-- AND THE FORMER NATO COMMANDER SAID THIS AS WELL-- THIS WAR ISN'T EVEN CLOSE TO OVER.

THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO CAN DECIDE WHEN THIS WAR IS OVER, THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN DECIDE WHEN THIS WAR IS OVER, IS VLADIMIR PUTIN, AND HE HAS TO MAKE A DECISION TO STOP THROWING BODIES AND IRON INTO THIS MEAT GRINDER THAT HE SET UP HIS TROOPS FOR.

SO IT'S A GREAT DAY.

IT REALLY GIVES A LIFT THAT THE UKRAINIANS NEEDED.

BUT THIS ISN'T EVEN CLOSE TO OVER YET.

>> Braude: IS IT WAR ALTER ARING, CAROL?

>> MAYBE TEMPORARILY.

I SHARE SOME OF HESITATION ABOUT THIS.

I THINK IT CHANGES THE CONTOURS OF THE BATTLEFIELD SHORT TO MEDIUM TERNLG BUT WE DON'T KNOW HOW VLADIMIR PUTIN WILL RESPOND AND WHAT HE WILL DO NEXT IN TERMS OF ADDRESSING SOME OF THE DAMAGE THAT'S BEEN INFLICTED ON THE RUSSIAN TROOPS.

AND I ALSO WORRY-- I'M CHANGING THE SUBJECT A LITTLE BIT-- I ALSO WORRY ABOUT THE PEOPLE BACK HOME IN RUSSIA WHO ARE ANGRY AT PUTIN BUT NOT BECAUSE HE STARTED THE WAR BUT ANGRY BECAUSE IT WASN'T PROSECUTED WELL,.

AND WILL THERE BE EVEN MORE PRESSURE ON VLADIMIR PUTIN TO UP THE ANTE MORE THAN WE HAVE SEEN.

>> Braude: LET ME CHANGE THE SUBJECT BECAUSE YOU CHANGED THE SUBJECT BUT NOT TOTALLY.

WHEN YOU TWO WERE HERE EITHER LAST TIME OR THE TIME BEFORE I ASKED YOU, "WHEN WILL THIS WAR BE OVER?"

AND YOU HINTED AT IT A MINUTE AGO, TOM.

AND YOU SAID, "WHEN PUTIN IS OVER, WHEN HE'S GONE."

DOES THIS HELP BUILD MOMENTUM ON THIS EFFORT WHEN THEY SUFFERED SUCH AN EMBARRASSING FAILURE IN THIS REGION, STARTING WITH YOU, TOM?

>> WELL, THE PROBLEM IN TRYING TO EVER PREDICT THE FALL OF THE KREMLIN LEADER IS THAT IT SEEMS IMPOSSIBLE RIGHT UP TO THE MOMENT IT HAPPENS.

>> Braude: IT HAPPENS, RIGHT.

>> AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY HARD TO DETERMINE HOW A COALITION MIGHT FORM AGAINST HIM WHEN HE'S BEEN VERY GOOD ABOUT MAKING SURE-- I SAY "VERY GOOD--" VERY COMPETENT AS A FORMER SPY, MAKING SURE THAT THOSE COALITIONS CAN'T FORM AGAINST HIM.

BUT ONE THING I'D LOOK FOR HERE IS TO SEE WHO PUTIN DECIDES TO SHIFT THE BLAME ON TO.

IF HE REALLY DOES SAY, "NOW I'M GOING TO START REALLY IMPRISONING MILITARY OFFICERS," OR REALLY GO AFTER THE SECURITY SERVICES, THAT COULD CHANGE THE CALCULUS.

BUT I ALSO SHARE CAROL'S WORRY THAT THE ANSWER IS GOING TO BE NOT THAT WE SHOULD DEPOSE VLADIMIR PUTIN, YOU KNOW THE ANSWER TO RUSSIA WON'T BE TO DEPOSE PUTIN BUT TO GET A BIGGER HAMMER.

>> Braude: CAROL, EVERYTHING I READ IN THE LAST FEW DAYS HAS SAID THAT THE SUCCESS IN THE KHARKIV REGION IS GOING TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE WEST TO PROVIDE MORE WEAPONS, BECAUSE, ONE, THE WEAPONS THAT ARE PROVIDED HAVE WORKED.

APPARENTLY UNITED STATES INTELLIGENCE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THIS SUCCESS.

BUT RIGHT BEFORE THIS, WE SAW NOT JUST REPUBLICANS BUT SOME DEMOCRATS BALKING AT WHAT I THINK WAS A CAPITOL HILL 14 BILLION UKRAINIAN REQUEST BY JOE BIDEN.

SO WILL THIS HELP ENCOURAGE THE WEST, INCLUDING THE U.S., TO DO MORE?

OR ARE WE SETTLING BACK INTO A DIFFICULT MORASS HERE?

>> TO BE HONEST, I COULD GUESS EITHER WAY.

I COULD GUESS THAT THERE WILL BE SOME PEOPLE WHO SAY, LOOK AT THE SUCCESS THEY'VE HAD.

WHY DO WE NEED TO PROVIDE THEM WITH ANY MORE WEAPONS?"

AND I CAN SEE OTHER PEOPLE SAYING, "LET'S KEEP THE MOMENTUM GOING.

LET'S PUSH THE RUSSIANS OUT OF UKRAINE ONCE AND FORRAL AND, THEREFORE, WE NEED MORE WEAPONS."

WHEN TOM WAS TALKING ABOUT THE THINGS THAT WERE UNEXPECTED, I THINK ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT WAS UNEXPECTED WAS THE ABILITY OF THE UKRAINIAN FORCES TO ASSIMILATE ALL THE WESTERN TECHNOLOGY SO FAST AND TO USE THEM SO SUCCESSFULLY.

>> Braude: HOW ABOUT YOU, TOM?

WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF WHAT THIS DOES IN TERMS OF WESTERN SUPPORT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S HARD TO ARGUE, GIVEN-- IT'S HARD TO ARGUE AGAINST MORE SUPPORT, GIVEN THAT PART REASON THEY'RE HAVING THIS BREAKTHROUGH IS BECAUSE OF WEAPONS LIKE HIMARS, THE LONG-RANGE ARTILLERY SYSTEM THAT WE'VE BEEN SENDING.

YOU KNOW, IF THIS WAS THE UKRAINIANS JUST KIND OF FIGHTING TRENCH WARFARE WITH PICKS AND SHOVELS AND WINNING, YOU MIGH MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT THEY-- MAYBE THEY DON'T REALLY NEED THAT KIND OF MONEY.

BUT THE MONEY PAWE'VE BEEN PUTTING INTO UKRAINE IS SHOWING ACTUAL RESULTS.

AND ANYONE IN CONGRESS WHO IS SITTING THROUGH A CLASSIFIED BRIEFING RIGHT NOW IS BEING SHOWN EXACTLY HOW THAT MONEY IS HELPING TO WIN THESE BATTLES.

I MEAN, I STILL THINK THAT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE REPUBLICANS WHO JUST DIG IN THEIR HEELS.

I MEAN, THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE A RAND PAUL OUT THERE.

BUT I THINK IT'S PRETTY HARD ARGUMENT TO MAKE THIS ISN'T A GOOD CASE FOR SENDING MORE MONEY BECAUSE THE MONEY WE SENT CLEARLY IS HAVING AN IMPACT.

>> Braude: JUST TO BE CLEAR, THOUGH, I UNDERSTAND YOUR RAND PAUL REFERENCE.

WHAT I WAS REFERENCING LAST WEEK, PRIOR TO ALL THIS, INCLUDED A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF REALLY HIGH-RANKING DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS AS WELL.

SPEAKING OF PUTTING PRESSURE ON THE WEST, IT SEEMS TO ME IT PUTS PRESSURE ON PUTIN TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE WESTERN ALLIANCE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S ALLEGEDLY BEING CONTEMPLATED IS RETALIATING BY CUTTING OFF ENERGY SUPPLIES TO THE WEST.

HERE'S WHAT SECRETARY OF STATE BLINKEN HAD TO SAY ON FRIDAY ABOUT THE WESTERN ALLIANCE AND THIS THREAT FROM PUTIN: >> PRESIDENT PUTIN IS BETTING THAT THESE ACTIONS WILL BREAK THE WILL OF COUNTRIES TO STAND WITH UKRAINE.

HE'S BETTING THAT THE KREMLIN CAN BULLY OTHER COUNTRIES INTO SUBMISSION.

HE'S ALREADY LOST THAT BET.

>> Braude: HAS HE LOST THAT BET, CAROL?

OR IS THAT A RISKY PROPOSITION FOR PEOPLE IN WESTERN EUROPE WORRIED ABOUT BEING COLD AND BROKE THIS WINTER?

IS.

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THE ALLIANCE HAS HELD TOGETHER MUCH BETTER THAN I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED WHEN THIS ALL STARTED LAST FEBRUARY.

I DO WORRY, THOUGH, THAT IF THERE'S A FULL SHUTOFF OF NATURAL GAS AND OIL FROM RUSSIA TO THE EUROPEANS, AND IF IT'S A BITTERLY COLD WINTER, THAT THERE COULD BE SOME MORE DEMONSTRATIONS, SOME PRESSURES ON THE WESTERN EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS, MUCH AS THERE WAS THAT DEMONSTRATION IN PRAGUE, I THINK, IT WAS, WITH FORCES FROM THE RIGHT AND THE LEFT OF THE CZECH POLITICAL SPECTRUM, ARGUING CHECKSHOULD GIVE IT UP AND BUY GAS FROM RUSSIA BECAUSE PRICES WERE GETTING TOO HIGH, ET CETERA.

I THINK THAT IS STILL WHAT PUTIN IS COUNTING ON.

BUT THUS FAR, THE EUROPEAN ALLIANCE HAS HELD VERY WELL.

AND THE GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER, I THINK IT WAS, WAS IN KYIV OVER THE WEEKEND.

THERE'S STILL THIS REAL DEMONSTRABLE SHOW OF SUPPORT FOR THE UKRAINIANS FROM THE EUROPEANS.

>> Braude: YOU SAY "THUS FAR."

THUS FAR HAS BEEN WARM.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT.

THAT'S EXACTLY MY CONCERN, IF THERE'S A TERRIBLE WINTER I THINK WE COULD SEE MUCH MORE PRESSURE ON THE EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS UNLESS THEY FIGURE OUT A WAY AHEAD OF TIME.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, TOM, YOU WROTE A REALLY INTERESTING PIECE-- I SAID "YOU KNOW, YOU DO KNOW-- BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS A REALLY INTERESTING PIECE WHEN YOU INTERVIEWED A COLLEAGUE ABOUT WHAT YOU CALLED THE SHEER SADISM OF THE RUSSIAN ASSAULT ON THE UKRAINIANS.

AS SOMEONE WHO HAS NO EXPERTISE IN WAR, UNLIKE YOU TWO, I ASSUMED ALL WARS WERE BRUTAL, ALL WARS INCLUDED SADISM.

BUT YOU SEEM TO SUGGEST THIS HAS BEEN NOTCHED UP ONE OR TWO LEVELS.

WHAT WAS THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION FROM YOUR COLLEAGUE?

>> FIRST, YOU KNOW, WAR IS ALWAYS A BRUTAL AND UGLY BUSINESS.

BUT MOST COMBATANTS, AT LEAST AT MOST TIMES IN THE MODERN WORLD, HAVE AT LEAST TRIED TO ENGAGE IN SOME KIND OF DISCRIMINATION OF TARGETS ABOUT THINGS LIKE NOT TARGETING CIVILIANS, NOT TARGETING SCHOOLS, NOT TARGETING CHURCHES.

THE RUSSIANS HAVE GONE OUT OF THEIR WAY, NOT JUST IN WHAT THEY'RE STRIKING FROM A DISTANCE WITH BOMBS, BUT EVEN ON THE GROUND, ONE ON ONE, JUST SHOOTING UNARMED CIVILIANS.

AND THE REASON I FOUND IT PUZZLING IS NOT BECAUSE I AM NAIVE ABOUT WAR, BUT BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS WENT INTO THIS SAYING, "WE ARE THERE TO SAVE OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

WE ARE ONE PEOPLE.

WE ARE THE SAME FAMILY."

AND NOW, YOU HAVE RUSSIANS, YOU KNOW, LITERALLY SHOOTING PEOPLE IN THE STREETS.

AND PART OF THE ANSWER-- AND I SPOKE ABOUT THIS WITH A COLLEAGUE OF MINE WHO IS A VERY GOOD RUSSIAN EXPERT, AND WE BOTH TRIED TO PUZZ THEL OUT-- PART OF THE ANSWER IS THE RUSSIANS NOW SEE UKRAINIAN RESISTANCE TO THEM AS BETRAYAL.

IT'S WORSE THAN TREASON.

IT'S A BETRAYAL AND A KIND OF BLOOD-TIES LEVEL.

WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR BROTHERS AND YOU TOOK UP ARMS AGAINST US SO NOW YOU'RE NO BETTER THAN NAZIS AND NOW WE CAN KILL YOU LIKE ANIMALS.

THAT'S ONE PART OF IT.

THE OTHER PART OF IT IS I THINK THE RUSSIANS ARE VENTING A KIND OF RESENTMENT ON THE UKRAINIANS.

"WHY DO YOU LIVE BETTER THAN US?

WHY CAN YOU CHOOSE YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT?

WHY IS IT THAT YOU THINK IT WOULD BE BAD TO BE PART OF RUSSIA?

HOW IS IT YOU LOOK DOWN ON US THIS WAY?"

AND I THINK THAT HAS LED TO AN ANGRY RUSSIAN MILITARY THAT DIDN'T-- MANY OF THOSE KID WHO DIDN'T WANT TO BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE, JUST BECOMING SADISTICALLY BRUTAL.

BUT IT ALSO EXPLAINS WHY THE HIGH COMMAND IS FOLLOWING THOSE ORDERS.

>> Rooney: YOU KNOW, CAROL-- I'M SORRY, GO AHEAD.

>> I THINK ZELENSKYY MADE POINT IN HIS SPEECH.

LIKE, YOU TALKED ABOUT US BEING BROTHERS AND LOOK AT HOW YOU TREATED US.

I MEAN, HE GAVE A VERY EMOTIONAL SPEECH OVER THE WEEKEND POINTING OUT HOW MUCH OF A LIE THE WHOLE THING ABOUT SLAVIC UNITY AND SLAVIC BROTHERHOOD REALLY IS.

>> Braude: TOM, WHAT ARE THE SIGNS THAT WILL INDICATE TO US WHAT THE ANSWER TO MY FIRST QUESTION IS IN THE DAYS AHEAD AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS A ONE-AND-DONE KIND OF MOMENT OR WHETHER OR NOT IT SIGNALED THAT THE UKRAINIANS WERE TAKING THE ADVANTAGE HERE?

WHAT DO WE LOOK FOR?

>> FIRST THING YOU'RE GOING TO LOOK FOR IS RUSSIAN COUNTEROFFENSIVES TO SEE HOW BIG AND HOW OVERARCHING IT IS.

I MEAN, THE RUSSIANS WILL REGROUP.

THEY'RE NOT COMPLETE IDIOTS.

THEY'RE GOING TO REGROUP.

THEY'RE GOING TO CONSOLICATE THEIR FORCES AND THEY'RE ALMOST CERTAINLY PLANNING A MAJOR COUNTEROFFENSIVE AT THIS MOMENT.

AND WE'LL HAVE TO SEE HOW MUCH THAT SUCCEEDS.

I THINK THAT IT ALSO MATTERS HOW MUCH THE UKRAINIANS MANAGE TO CONSOLIDATE THIS WIN.

YOU KNOW, I SHARE CAROL'S CONCERN ABOUT A COLD WINTER.

BUT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT WE CAN START SENDING TO UKRAINE, A LOT OF THEM ARE ALREADY THERE, AND A LOT OF THEM WILL ARRIVE PRETTY QUICKLY.

I MEAN, IN A WAY, THE STAGE IS BEING SET FOR THE FIGHTING IN, YOU KNOW, DECEMBER OR JANUARY.

IT'S ALREADY BEING SET NOW.

AND SO, WE'LL HAVE TO-- WE'LL JUST HAVE TO SEE IF THE RUSSIANS ARE ABLE TO RALLY BACK.

BUT THE HOME FRONT IN RUSSIA IS BECOMING UNSTABLE.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING, TO GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONVERSATION-- CAROL, I JUST DIDN'T THINK I'D BE SITTING HERE SAYING, "YEAH, THE RUSSIAN HOME FRONT IS BECOMING SHACKY."

BUT I THINK IT IS BECOMING SHAKY.

THE PEOPLE ON RUSSIAN MEDIA AND, YOU KNOW, ON THE RUSSIAN PUBLICATIONS, THERE'S A PALPABLE SENSE OF PANIC NOW BOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

>> Braude: GOOD TO HEAR.

SPEAKING OF MEDIA, CAN I ASK YOU ONE-- I ONLY HAVE A MINUTEO SORE LEFT-- ONE QUESTION OF BOTH OF YOU AND I THINK YOU BOTH KNOW IT'S AN OBSESSION OF MINE-- I'M REALLY DISAPPOINTED WITH MY COLLEAGUE IN ADDITION THE MEDIA IN TERMS OF HOW MUCH COVERAGE, AFTER THE INITIAL PHASE, THIS BATTLE FOR DEMOCRACY HAS GOTTEN.

AND I GUESS MY ANGST ABOUT IT REACHED FEVERED PROPORTIONS WHEN IT WAS AND IS 24/7 THE DEATH OF A MONARCH, ARE HARRY AND WILL GOING TO BE REUNITED?

WILL THERE BE A RAPPROCHEMENT?

CAROL, STARTING WITH YOU, ARE YOU TROUBLED BY HOW THE MEDIA IS OR IS NOT COVERING UKRAINE AFTER 200 DAYS?

>> WELL, I EVEN HAVE FRIENDS WHO KNOW WHAT I DO COME UP TO ME AND SAY, "IT'S NOT ON THE FRONTS PAGES OF THE PAPER ANYMORE.

HOW ARE WE EVEN SUPPOSED TO KNOW ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON?"

I AGREE WITH YOU COMPLETELY AND TRYING TO TURN ON ANY NEWS CHANNEL THIS WEEKEND IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE QUEEN.

AND I'M SORRY FOR HER DEATH -- >> WE ALL ARE, OF COURSE.

>> BUT IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BATTLEFIELD ADVANCES THAT THE UKRAINIANS WERE MAKING.

I THINK IT'S TERRIBLE.

AND IT DOES, IT GOES BACK TO YOUR OTHER QUESTION, JIM, IT DOESN'T HELP BIDEN RALLY THE TROOPS, SO TO SPEAK, ABOUT GETTING MORE AID TO UKRAINE WHEN IT'S NOT ON THE FRONT PAGES, WHICH MEANS PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ARE FORGET ABOUT IT, SO THERE WON'T BE ANY GROUNDSWELL OF SUPPORT FOR FIGHTING FOR DEMOCRACY.

>> Braude: 15 SECONDS, TOM NICHOLS.

>> I AGREE COMPLETELY.

I LOVE THE QUEEN AS MUCH AS ANY RED-BLOOD AMERICAN COULD, BUT I WAS REALLY UPSET THAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHO GETS THE QUEEN'S CORGIS INSTEAD OF THE FACT THAT AN EPOCHAL BATTLE IS UNFOLDING IN THE MIDDLE OF EUROPE.

I ACTUALLY WROTE ABOUT IT TODAY IN "THE ATLANTIC," BECAUSE I WAS SO UPSET ABOUT IT AND I WANTED TO DRAW ATTENTION BACK TO IT.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, "THE WASHINGTON POST," MIDAFTERNOON TODAY, THE CORGI HEADLINE-- HONEST TO GOD-- WAS ABOVE THE UKRAINE HEADLINE.

CAROL SAIVETZ, AND TOM NICHOLS, TERRIFIC GUIDANCE AND INFORMATION.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANKS A LOT, JIM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: ON THIS DAY 60 YEARS AGO, PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY DELIVERED A SPEECH THAT INSPIRED THE NATION TO DREAM OF A FUTURE BIGGER THAN THEY EVER DARED.

TO FLY TO THE MOON.

TODAY PRESIDENT BIDEN TRAVELED TO BOSTON TO THE LIBRARY DEDICATED TO J.F.K.

'S LEGACY AND DELIVERED HIS MOONSHOT SPEECH LAYING OUT HIS OWN HOPES TO CREAM BIG, CHANGING THE SCIENTIFIC COURSE OF OUR NATION.

>> PRESIDENT KENNEDY SET A GOAL TO WIN THE SPACE RACE AGAINST RUSSIA AND ADVANCE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY FOR ALL OF HUMANITY.

AND WHEN HE SET THAT GOAL, HE ESTABLISHED A NATIONAL PURPOSE THAT COULD RALLY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND A COMMON CAUSE.

AND HE SUCCEED.

NOW, IN OUR TIME, ON THE 60th ANNIVERSARY OF HIS CLARRIAN CALL, WE FACE ANOTHER INFLECTION POINT.

AND I BELIEVE WE CAN USHER IN THE SAME UNWILLINGNESS TO POSTPONE THE SAME NATIONAL PURPOSE THAT WILL SERVE TO ORGANIZE AND MEASURE THE BEST OF OUR ENERGIES AND SKILLS.

TO END CANCER AS WE KNOW IT.

>> Braude: A NOBLG GOAL FOR CERTAIN.

NEXT UP, THERE ARE SOME BIG CHANGES UNDER WAY AT THE "BOSTON GLOBE."

EDITOR BRIAN McGRORY JUST ANNOUNCED HE'S STEPPING DOWN AT THE END OF THE YEAR AFTER A DECADE IN THE ROLE AND THREE PULITZER PRIZES, HAVING WORKED HIS WAY UP FROM PAPER DELIVERY EDBOY AT THE PAPER.

AND THIS WEEK IS THE SECOND "GLOBE SUMMIT," AN ANNUAL CONFERENCE AIMED AT EXTENDING THE PAPER'S JOURNALISM "BEYOND THE PAGE," AS THEY PUT IT.

THIS YEAR'S THEME IS "THE NEXT BOSTON" AND FEATURES DOZENS OF HIGH-PROFILE SPEAKERS, INCLUDING JP MORGAN CHASE'S C.E.O.

JAMIE DIMON; BIDEN'S COVID-19 RESPONSE COORDINATOR AND FORMER FREQUENT "GREATER BOSTON" GUEST, DR. ASHISH JHA; ACTOR AND CLIMATE ACTIVIST SAM WATERSTON, AND MANY MORE.

I'M JOINED BY THE WOMAN LEADING THE CHARGE ON ALL OF IT, "BOSTON GLOBE" MEDIA C.E.O., LINDA PIZZUTI HENRY.

LINDA IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> SO GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: WHAT DO YOU HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH AT THE SUMMIT?

>> WELL, THE SUMMIT IS-- WE STARTED IT LAST YEAR WHEN EVERYBODY STARTED DOING VIRTUAL EVENTS.

WE HAD STARTED THE YEAR BEFORE.

AND WE JUST WANTED TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

SO WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE GREAT RECOVERY, AND THE RESPONSE WAS REALLY OVERWHELMING.

WE HAD OVER 14,000 PEOPLE ATTEND.

>> Braude: THAT'S GREAT.

>> WE SAID WE'RE JUST GOING TO KEEP DOING IT AND OUR JOURNALISTS LOVE IT AS WELL, AND WE'RE BRINGING OUR JOURNALISM TO LIFE.

>> Braude: THE THING THAT DRIVES ME NUTS ARE HUGE AND-- >> NOTHING DRIVES YOU NUTS.

>> Braude: IMPORTANT CONFERENCES WHERE THERE'S NO FOLLOW-UP.

WHEN PEOPLE HAVE IDEAS -- AND I KNOW THIS IS THE FUTURE YOU'RE LOOKING TO-- IS THERE FOLLOW-UP TO SEE IF-- HOW YOU MOVE FROM CONCEPT TO REALITY?

IS THAT PART OF THE GOAL HERE?

>> SOMEWHAT.

THAT'S NOT EXACTLY WHAT'S BAKED IN.

PART OF IT, OUR GOAL, BECAUSE STARTED DURING THE PANDEMIC, IS REALLY TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AND HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS TOGETHER AND TALK-- SORT OF SHARE THOUGHTS AND IDEAS.

AND THERE ARE INTERACTIVE ELEMENTS.

LIKE, WE'RE HAVING DOCUMENTARY FILM SCREENINGS AND BRINGING PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT THE ARTS, WE'RE DOING COCKTAIL MAKING AND HAVING REALLY DEEP CONVERSATIONS AS WELL.

IN TERMS OF THE FOLLOW-UP, THERE ARE OVER 25 DIFFERENT JOURNALISTS WHO ARE PART OF IT, FROM THE "GLOBE."

>> Braude: THIS IS VIRTUAL AND FREE, CORRECT.

>> YES, THREE DAYS, THURSDAY THROUGH FRIDAY.

WE HAVE A TERRIFIC LINEUP.

I HAVE A GREAT CONVERSATION WITH DAVID ORTIZ, WHICH IS A LOT OF FUN.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF DAVID ORTIZ, HE'S AT THE HALL OF FAME INDUCTION AND HE THANKS YOU.

I'M SERIOUS.

HE'SI'M LISTENING TO HIS TERRIFIC SPEECH.

WHAT DID YOU DO FOR HIM?

>> IT'S NOT JUST ME.

IT'S ME AND JOHN AND THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION.

WE'VE BEEN REALLY GOOD FRIENDS AND CHAMPIONS OF DAVID FOR A LONG TIME.

SO WE WERE VERY TOUCHED THAT HE THANKED US.

BUT, NO, I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS SUCCESS ON THE FIELD.

>> Braude: THAT'S NOT WHAT I HEAR.

WE'LL GIVE THE WEB ADDRESS TO REGISTER FOR THE DIFFERENCE IN JUST A COUPLE OF MINUTES.

AS I MENTIONED AT THE TOP, A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO, I BELIEVE IT WAS MAY, NEW EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR ---- >> JIM DOW.

>> AND WE LEARNED BRIAN BRIAN McGRORY IS LEAVING THAT POSITION.

YOU'RE TOTALLY REMAKING THE FACE OF THE PAPER, EXCEPT YOU.

NO, I'M SERIOUS.

IS THAT NOT DAUNTING.

>> WHEN YOU SAY "REMAKING THE FACE," IT'S THE LEADERSHIP TURNS OVER, AS IT DOES.

YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN HERE LESS TIME THAN BRIAN.

AND, THANKFULLY, BRIAN IS GOING TO REMAIN AS A COLUMNIST.

>> Braude: THAT'S GREAT.

>> HE'S LEAVING THE ROLE OF EDITOR, AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS A GREAT EVOLUTION.

BRIAN INHERITED A FANTASTIC NEWS ROOM FROM MATTER BARON, AND OUR NEXT EDITOR WILL INHERIT A GREAT NEWSROOM FROM BRIAN.

>> Braude: I NEVER ASKED EITHER YOU OR YOUR HUSBAND, BRIAN WAS AT THE NEWSPAPER LESS THAN A YEAR AFTER-- >> HE WAS EDITOR LESS THAN A YEAR.

>> >> Braude: I'M SORRY.

AFTER YOU GUYS BOUGHT THE NEWSPAPER.

WAS THERE ANY THOUGHT OF NOT KEEPING HIM, DUMPING HIM, AND MOVING ON TO SOMEBODY ELSE?

>> THE NEWSROOM WAS THE LEAST OF OUR PROBLEMS.

SO WHAT BRIAN GAVE US WAS AN INCREDIBLE GIFT IS THAT WHILE THE ENTIRE BUSINESS WAS NIMPLODING, IT HAD IMPLODED AND IT WAS HEMORRHAGING CASH AND, YOU KNOW, THINGS WERE JUST REALLY CHAOTIC, WHAT WE HAD WAS A STRONG, STABLING, TRUSTED NEWSROOM.

SO THAT WAS A GIFT HE GAVE TO US SO WE COULD FOCUS ON EVERYTHING ELSE.

SO, NO, IT REALLY WASN'T A THOUGHT.

>> Braude: WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE HIGHLIGHT OF THE LAST 10 YEARS FURC LOOK BACK ON McGRORY'S TENURE.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY YOU'RE PROUDEST OF?

>> I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT BRIAN IS THAT THE JOB THAT HE WAS HIRED FOR A DECADE AGO IS SO DIFFERENT FROM THE JOB TODAY.

AND HE IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE LAST STANDING OF THE EDITORS IN-- I THINK HE'S THE LONGEST SERVING EDOF A MAJOR METRO RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE TURNED OVER.

IT'S AN INCREDIBLY DEMANDING JOB.

I THINK THE WAY HE HANDLED A NUMBER OF REALLY, REALLY BIG MOMENTS AND KEPT THE NEWSROOM GOING AND KEPT THE STANDARDS OF JOURNALISM HIGH THROUGHOUT ALL OF IT IS THE PART I'M MOST GRATEFUL FOR.

>> Braude: THERE HAS NEVER BEEN ANYBODY BUT A WHITE GUY.

>> I KNOW, THEY HAVE HAD A 150-YEAR RUN.

>> IT'S THE 150th ANNIVERSARY.

IS THERE A SAFE BET THERE WILL NOT BE A WHITE GUY SITTING IN THAT CHAIR WHEN HIS REPLACEMENT IS CHOSEN?

>> I DON'T BELIEVE IN MAKING A COMMITMENT BASED ON THAT ALONE.

I'M MAKING A COMMITMENT OF FINDING REALLY THE BEST PERSON WHO CAN LEAD A NEWSROOM TODAY.

>> Braude: WHEN YOU SAY, "ON THAT ALONE," OBVIOUSLY IT'S A CONSIDERATION.

>> IT'S CERTAINLY SOMETHING IN TERMS OF-- YOU KNOW, AS A NEWS ORGANIZATION IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE REFLECT THE CITY WE SERVE.

AND WE HAVE A REALLY DYNAMIC LEADERSHIP TEAM THAT ALSO HAPPENS TO BE SUPER DIVERSE.

BUT THEY WEREN'T SELECTED JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE DIVERSE.

THEY'RE SELECTED BECAUSE THEY'RE AMONGST THE BEST THEY DO.

>> Braude: WE SHOULD SAY IN ADDITION TO ANY COLUMN, HE WILL BE HEAD THE OF JOURNALISM AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY.

I READ TODAY, IN 2019, YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND ARE LEAVING A MEETING IN A HOTEL, AND THE "BOSTON BUSINESS JOURNAL--" YOU'RE LOOK, AT ME LIKE I'M TALKING ABOUT.

THE HEAD OF THE "BOSTON BUSINESS JOURNAL."

GOES TO YOUR HUSBAND AND SAYS IS THE "GLOBE" PROFITABLE?

HE SAYS YES.

AND THE REPORTER TURNS TO YOU AND YOU SAY, "I WOULDN'T GO THAT FAR."

THAT'S TRUE, BY THE WAY.

IT'S 2020, WOULD YOU GO THAT FAR NOW?

>> YEAH.

>> Braude: HOW IS THE PAPER DOING?

>> IT'S DOING REALLY WELL.

WE FOUND A REALLY GOOD WAY OF GETTING OUR JOURNALISM REALLY DONE WITH TOP QUALITY, CONTINUING TO INVEST IN WHAT WE ARE SERVING AND DELIVERING IT IN A WAY THAT IS EFFICIENT AND SUSTAINABLE.

>> Braude: BEYOND THE BUSINESS SIDE OF THIS, I READ A COLUMN BY MARGARET SULLIVAN-- HER FINAL COLUMN, "THE WASHINGTON POST" MEDIA PERSON.

SHE QUOTES JONATHAN "KARL OF ABC."

HOW DO YOU COVER A CANDIDATE THAT EFFECTIVELY ANTIDEMOCRATIC WHO IS RUNNING AGAINST WHOEVER THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE IS BUT RUNNING AGAINST THE VERY DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM THAT MAKES ALL THIS POSSIBLE.

ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT THIS?

ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THIS?

>> I'M SO HAPPY TO BE TALKING ABOUT A COLUMN FROM ANOTHER NEWSPAPER THREE WEEKS AGO.

>> Braude: IT IS ANOTHER NEWSPAPER FROM THREE WEEKS AGO.

STAY WITH ME.

I ASSUME YOU THINK ABOUT THIS, YES?

>> IT IS.

IT'S-- I THINK THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF REALLY GREAT POINTS IN HER COLUMN, AND ONE WAS THE IMPORTANCE OF DEMOCRACY AND "THE WASHINGTON POST" IS MOVING FORWARD WITH IT.

WE HAVE A REPORTER, FANTASTIC REPORTER IN WHOSE BEAT IS DEMOCRACY.

IT'S SOMETHING WE'RE LOOKING AT.

WE HAVE THIS GREAT PROJECT THAT WE'RE WORKING ON RIGHT NOW ON WHAT THE IMPACT HAS BEEN ON ELECTION WORKERS, SORT OF LOOKING AT THAT ASPECT OF IT.

WE HAVE ANOTHER PROJECT GOING NOW, WE CENT A DOZEN REPORTERS OUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO SORT OF LOOK AT WHAT'S GOING ON.

SO WE TAKE SERIOUSLY-- I TOOK MORE FROM HER COLUMN THE IMPORTANCE OF DEMOCRACY, BUT IN TERMS OF HOW WE'RE GOING TO COVER TRUMP, THERE IS A DIFFERENT TRUMP NOW THAN THERE WAS SEVEN OR-- SEVEN YEARS AGO.

AND WE HAVE NO IDEA WHERE HE'LL BE OF IN TERMS WILL HE HAVE BEEN INDICTED, WILL HE NOT HAVE BEEN INDICTED?

I THINK THE WHOLE INDUSTRY HAS CHANGED.

>> Braude: I DON'T KNOW WHY WE'RE WASTING OUR TIME TALKING ABOUT IT.

IT WAS THREE WEEKS AGO.

YOU MENTIONED IT WAS THE 150th ANNIVERSARY.

YOU HAVE A COMMEMORATION IN THE SEAPORT, YES?

>> WE HAVE BEEN CELEBRATING ALL YEAR.

AS PART OF THE CELEBRATION WE COMMISSIONED THIS REALLY BEAUTIFUL POEM-- BOSTON HAS ITS OWN.

POET LAUREATE, AND SHE DID THIS INCREDIBLE POEM CALLED "THE BOSTON GLOBE'S ATLAS."

IT'S IN THE SEAPORT, AND YOU SEE HER POEM, THE WORDS.

YOU WALK THROUGH THE POEM AND SEE THE PHOTOS AND THE STORIES FROM THE "GLOBE'S" 150 YEARS THAT INSPIRED IT.

IT'S A REALLY GREAT THING.

WE'RE EXCITED TO BRING OUR JOURNALISM, SORT OF OUR CONNECTION TO THE CITY TO BOSTON.

>> Braude: BUT IT'S 150 YEARS AGO.

WHY ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT IT.

LINDA HENRY, GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU.

AGAIN, THE "GLOBE SUMMIT" KICKS OFF WEDNESDAY AT 10:00 A.M. FOR MORE INFO, HEAD TO bostonglobe.com/summit.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW, WITH THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

AND AGAIN, PLEASE DON'T FORGET