>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE'RE LEADING CHINA IN AI.

WE'RE THE MOST SOPHISTICATED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

AND FRANKLY, I WANT TO KEEP IT THAT WAY, BECAUSE WHOEVER WINS AI, WINS.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP CALLS OFF SHRUGS TO REGULATE AI AS INDUSTRY LEADERS CALLS TO SLOW DOWN.

HELEN TONER JOINS ME TO DISCUSS IF AI CAN BE REINED IN BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

> >> AND OIL PRICES SURGE AS IRAN-BACKED HOUTHI REBELS CONTINUE THEIR RAPID ADVANCE DOWN THE RED SEA COAST.

REGIONAL EXPERT AND FORMER HOUTHI CAPTIVE HISHAM AL-OMEISY JOINS ME WITH HIS TAKE ON DEVELOPMENTS THERE.

> >> THEN -- >> THE VAST MAJORITY OF ADMIRALS AND GENERALS ARE WHITE MEN.

AND THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT HAVE BEEN FIRE READY NOT.

>> MICHEL MARTIN SPEAKS TO RETIRED U. S. NAVY OFFICER THEODORE JOHNSON ABOUT RACE, LEADERSHIP, AND NATIONAL SECURITY.

?

?

> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

CEOs OF LEADING AI COMPANIES ARE JOINTLY CALLING FOR A SLOWDOWN OF DEVELOPMENT AS DEVELOPERS FEAR THEY COULD LOSE CONTROL OF THEIR OWN POWERFUL TECHNOLOGY.

LEADING THE CHARGE IS ANTHROPIC HEAD DARIO AMODEI, WHO WARNS THAT BUILDING THE SYSTEMS TOO FAST IS RECKLESS.

>> MY VIEW IS THAT THE BAD WORLD, THE WORLD WHERE SOMETHING BAD CAN HAPPEN IS IF BAD THINGS HAPPEN WITH THESE MODELS AND WE JUST KEEP GOING WITHOUT FIXING OUR PROBLEMS BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME, RIGHT.

I THINK IF AT EVERY STEP WE STOP AND WE SAY LET'S FIX THE PROBLEMS WITH THESE MODELS.

LET'S UNDERSTAND THEM.

LET'S FIX THE PROBLEMS WITH THESE MODELS, AND THEN ONLY SLOWLY, CAREFULLY CAN WE MOVE ON TO THE SAME, TO THE NEXT STEP AND REAP THE BENEFITS WHILE ADDRESSING THE RISKS, THEN I THINK THE PROBABILITY OF SOMETHING GOING WRONG IS VERY, VERY LOW.

BUT THE WORLD IN WHICH THINGS COULD GO VERY SERIOUSLY WRONG IS THE WORLD IN WHICH WE JUST KEEP GOING WITHOUT SAFEGUARDS OR WITH NOT ENOUGH TIME TO PUT IN PLACE SAFEGUARDS BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS GOING SO QUICKLY.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP AND REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS ARE BRUSHING AWAY CALLS FOR REGULATION.

HERE IS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE MIKE JOHNSON.

>> THEY NEED TO TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FIRST, AND WE NEED TO GET THEM ALL IN A ROOM AT THE SAME TIME AND AGREE ON WHAT THE GUARDRAILS ARE.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS.

IF CONGRESS JUST RACES IN AND DOES SOME SORT OF EMERGENCY SESSION TO TRY TO REGULATE AI, WE WILL LOSE THE RACE TO CHINA, AND THAT IS A THREAT TO EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN.

SO WE'VE GOT TO HAVE BALANCE.

WE'VE GOT TO HAVE STEADY HANDS AT THE WHEEL.

I'M ONE OF THE ONES CALLING FOR THIS MEETING AND I WILL BE PUSHING IT MYSELF, BECAUSE IT IS A TOP PRIORITY.

BUT WE DON'T NEED EVERYBODY TO PANIC.

WE NEED TO HANDLE THIS NEW TECHNOLOGY, LIKE OTHERS IN THE PAST, AND MAKE SURE WE'RE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN RESPONSIBLY TO ALSO NOT SMOTHER AMERICAN INNOVATION.

WE HAVE TO DO BOTH THINGS SIMULTANEOUSLY.

>> AS FOR CHINA, THE GOVERNMENT IS PUSHING BACK ON SUGGESTIONS THAT IT POSES AN AI RISK.

STATE-BACKED MEDIA SAYING AMODEI'S WARNING IS STRAIGHT OUT OF A COLD WAR PLAYBOOK.

ALL OF THIS AFTER A CALL FROM JACOB COXON WHO SAYS COMPANIES ARE GAMBLING WITH OUR LIVES.

SO IS AI AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT, OR ARE THESE WARNINGS MORE OF A MARKETING PLOY TO DRIVE INVESTMENT IN AI COMPANIES?

HELEN TONER SERVED AS A BOARD MEMBER AT OPENAI WHERE SHE WAS PART OF AN UNSUCCESSFUL EFFORT TO OUST SAM ALTMAN.

SHE IS PART OF THE CENTER FOR SECURITY AND EMERGING TECHNOLOGY.

HELEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WE MENTIONED JACOB COXON'S WARNING AND THE REASON HE GAVE FOR LEAVING THE COMPANY.

SHORTLY THEREAFTER, DARIO AMODEI WAS ASKED ABOUT SOME OF THE COMMENTS THAT HE MADE, SPECIFICALLY WARNING THAT AI COULD KILL HUMANITY BY DECADE'S END.

HERE'S WHAT AMODEI SAID.

>> IT'S FUNNY.

I AGREE WITH JACOB MUCH MORE THAN I DISAGREE WITH HIM, YOU KNOW.

AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S AN INTERESTING RESIGNATION, BECAUSE WHEN HE LEFT, HE SAID I THINK ANTHROPIC IS THE MOST RESPONSIBLE PLAYER.

I THINK ANTHROPIC IS THE MOST AWARE OF THESE ISSUES.

HE WASN'T CALLING OUT US.

HE WAS CALLING OUT THE DYNAMIC OF THE INDUSTRY AS A WHOLE MOVING TOO FAST.

>> SO IN ONE SENSE, HE WAS DEFEND THE ETHICS STANDARDS AT THE COMPANIES, BUT ALSO RAISING, AND I THINK CORROBORATING SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT MANY EXPERTS LIKE JACOB, LIKE YOURSELF HAVE HAD ABOUT THE FAST-PACED DEVELOPMENT THAT WE'VE SEEN OF AI.

SHORTLY AFTER AMODEI PUBLISHED HIS PACE WE SAW SAM 589 MAN, -- ALTMAN, ELON MUSK, THEY CAME OUT FOR SLOWING THE TECHNOLOGY DOWN.

YOU SAID THESE COMPANIES ARE, QUOTE, STARTING TO GET SPOOKED.

WHAT IS IT THAT THEY ARE SEEING THAT THE REST OF US NEED TO UNDERSTAND RIGHT NOW, HELEN?

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

SO IT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE THIS DEBATE STILLING INTO THE PUBLIC EYE OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS BECAUSE IT'S BEEN ONE THAT'S BEEN LONG-RUNNING IN AI CIRCLES.

AND WHAT'S BASICALLY AT THE COWER OF THIS DYNAMIC IS AI COMPANIES WANT TO BUILD INCREASINGLY POWERFUL AI THAT CAN DO MORE AND MORE THINGS, THAT CAN TAKE MORE AND MORE COMPLEX ACTIONS IN THE REAL WORLD, BUT THERE IS A QUESTION OF AS WE BUILD THOSE MORE ADVANCED SYSTEMS, ARE WE ABLE TO CONTROL THEM?

ARE WE ABLE TO ENSURE THAT THEY WILL DO WHAT WE WANT THEM TO.

SO FOR A LONG TIME IS THERE THERE HAVE BEEN DEBATES INSIDE THE AI WORLD ABOUT HOW FAST IS THE CAPABILITIES OF THE TECHNOLOGY PROGRESSING, AND ARE WE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND AND CONTROL IT WELL ENOUGH AS IT'S GETTING MORE ADVANCED.

AND I WOULD SAY OVER THE LAST THREE MONTHS, SIX MONTHS, 12 MONTHS, WE'VE SEEN INSIDE THE INDUSTRY PEOPLE WHO ARE AT THAT CUTTING EDGE, SO COMPANIES LIKE ANTHROPIC AND OPENAI WITH THE MOST ADVANCED MOLDS, THEY'VE BEEN STARTING TO SAY WHOA, WHOA, HANG ON, WE'RE SEEING SOME REALLY SOPHISTICATED BEHAVIOR, AND WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO KEEP PUSHING THE FRONTIER, KEEP MAKING MORE AND MORE ADVANCED MOLDS IN A WAY THAT WE FEEL SAFE ABOUT.

SO THAT IS WHAT HAS REALLY CAUGHT THE PUBLIC'S ATTENTION OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS.

>> SO IS IT FAIR TO SAY DEVELOPMENT HAS OUTPACED EVEN THEIR EXPECTATIONS?

>> I THINK IT DEPENDS VERY MUCH ON WHOSE EXPECTATIONS.

SOME PEOPLE INVOLVED HERE HAVE BEEN EXPECTING HUMAN LEVEL AI SYSTEMS FOR THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS AND IT HASN'T COME ON TIME.

OTHER PEOPLE IT CERTAINLY EXCEEDED THEIR EXPECTATIONS.

THEY WOULD HAVE SAID IN THE 20s, 30s BEYOND.

VERY FAST TO MOST PEOPLE'S EXPECTATIONS ESPECIALLY OUTSIDE THE INDUSTRY WHERE PEOPLE ARE NOT REALIZING HOW FAST THINGS ARE GOING.

>> I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT DARIO AMODEI'S ESSAY IS QUITE THOUGHTFUL.

IT'S TITLED "WE MUST PACE THE FRONTIER. "

AND HE PLAYS OUT A THREE-STEP PLAN THAT HE THINKS WILL ADDRESS THE ISSUE IN THE SHORT TIME THAT CALLS FOR INDEPENDENT EVALUATORS EMBEDDED INSIDE THE COMPANIES COORDINATING AMONG FRONTIER LABS IN DEMOCRACIES.

AND GOVERNMENT-TO-GOVERNMENT COORDINATION, INCLUDING WITH AUTHORITARIAN STATES.

I THINK EVERYONE, THE ONE COUNTRY THAT COMES TO MIND THERE IS CHINA.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THOSE THREE PARTS OF HIS PRESCRIPTION?

>> I DO THINK IT'S A PRETTY SENSIBLE THREE-PART PLAN.

I THINK STEP ONE, WHICH THE COMPANIES CAN DO VOLUNTARILY IS A GOOD START.

CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO BE ENOUGH.

STEP TWO HE FRAMES AS DEMOCRATIC COOPERATION.

PERSONALLY I THINK ANYTHING THE U. S. CAN DO DOMESTICALLY IS GOING GET US A LONG WAY THERE.

THERE AREN'T REALLY VERY SERIOUS COMPETITORS IN DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES THAT AREN'T THE U. S. SO I WOULD JUST SAY DOMESTIC RULES AND REGULATIONS RATHER THAN DEMOCRATIC COOPERATION.

AND THEN THE THIRD PART OF HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR COUNTRIES THAT ARE NOT ALLIES, MOST ESPECIALLY CHINA, WHICH HAS SOME VERY ADVANCED AI COMPANIES.

THE UNDERLINING DYNAMIC IS THIS RACE DYNAMIC.

THIS FEELING OF WE HAVE CONCERNS.

WE THINK WHAT WE'RE DOING IS RISKY, WE, THE AI COMPANIES, BUT IF WE DON'T DO IT, SOMEONE ELSE.

SO WE WANT TO DO IT FIRST SO WE CAN DO IT BETTER.

AS LONG AS THEY FEEL CHINA BREATHING DOWN THEIR NEXT IT'S GOING TO BE VERY DIFFICULT TO MAKE GOOD DECISIONS AND TAKE THE TIME WE NEED.

I DO THINK ULTIMATELY WE NEED TO GO THERE.

>> WE'LL TALK ABOUT CHINA IN JUST A MOMENT.

LET'S FOCUS MORE ON THE U. S.

-BASED AI PLAYERS.

OPENAI REPORTEDLY DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ITS OWN AGENTS HAD ATTACKED HUGGING FACE UNTIL WEEKS AFTER THE FACT.

WHAT DOES THAT INCIDENT REVEAL ABOUT THE GAP BETWEEN WHAT THESE SYSTEMS CAN DO AND WHAT THEIR CREATORS CAN ACTUALLY CONTROL?

>> YEAH, THE HUGGING FACE ATTACK REALLY ILLUSTRATES A NUMBER OF FASCINATING AND VERY IMPORTANT DYNAMICS OR WHAT THE FRONTIER OF AI LOOKS LIKE RIGHT NOW.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE, WE DIDN'T KNOW THIS WHEN IT WAS FIRST ANNOUNCED, BUT WE NOW KNOW THE ATTACK WAS NOT CARRIED OUT BY ONE AI BUT BY 700 AGENTS THAT WERE ACTING IN A SELF-DESCRIBED SWARM OR SELF- DESCRIBED COLLECTIVE, AND IT WAS PART OF THIS --THIS HAPPENED DURING OPENAI'S RESEARCH AND TESTING PROCESS.

THEY WERE TRYING TO BUILD INCREASINGLY CAPABLE AIs AND TRYING TO TEST HOW GOOD THEY WERE.

WHILE THEY WERE DOING THAT, THEY WEREN'T PLAYING CLOSE ENOUGH ATTENTION TO THE THOUSANDS OF AI AGENTS THAT THEY HAD SET OFF, KICKED OFF TO DO EXPERIMENTS.

SO THESE 700 MANAGED TO FIRST ESCAPE THE SECURITY CONSTRAINTS THAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE UNDER IN OPENOPENAI.

THEY COULD HAVE BEEN STRONGER.

THEY MANAGED TO HACK IN AND TAKE OVER PARTS OF ITS INFRASTRUCTURE OVER THE COURSE OF SEVERAL DAYS BEFORE ANYONE NOTICED ANYTHING.

SO I THINK THIS REALLY SHOWS US BOTH THE SPEED AT WHICH THINGS ARE CHANGING.

OPENAI DIDN'T REALIZE THAT ITS SYSTEMS WERE GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS OR LIKELY TO DO THIS, AND ALSO, THE SCALE AND THE COMPLEXITY OF THE BEHAVIOR THAT WE'RE SEEING HERE.

THE FACT THAT HUNDREDS OF AGENTS COULD COORDINATE OVER MULTIPLE DAYS, THAT WASN'T TRUE SIX MONTHS AGO.

CERTAINLY NOT 12 MONTHS AGO.

THAT'S THE REASON WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PACING THE FRONTIER IS IT'S NOT THAT THIS IS UNSOLVABLE.

WE CAN TOTALLY IMPLANT NEW WAYS OF HANDLING THESE ISSUES.

IT JUST TAKES TIME.

IT TAKES THOUGHT.

IT TAKES UNDERLYING SCIENCE.

SO THAT IS WHY I THINK YOU'RE SEEING THIS UNANIMOUS CALL FROM SOME OF THE PARTS OF THE INDUSTRY THAT ARE RIGHT AT THAT CUTTING EDGE.

>> AND THANKFULLY, THE HUGGING FACE HACK WAS NOT THAT CONSEQUENTIAL.

BUT IT DOES APPEAR FROM WHAT DARIO AMODEI WAS WARNING THAT THAT IT IS SORT OF THE SWARM PHENOMENON OF PERHAPS A MUCH MORE EVOLENT ACT THAT THESE CREATORS CANNOT CONTROL.

IS IT SOMETHING THEY CAN'T CONTROL EVEN IN REALTIME, OR IS IT THE FEAR THAT IT COULD HAPPEN PERHAPS BEFORE THE CREATORS AND THOSE DEVELOPERS ARE EVEN AWARE OF WHAT'S GOING ON.

LIKING IF THERE IS A SWARM ATTACK HAPPENING, CAN IT BE STOPPED IN THE MOMENT?

>> MOST LIKELY, YES.

IT DEPENDS ON HOW THE SYSTEM IS SET UP.

I THINK THE REAL CHALLENGE HERE AGAIN IS THE SPEED.

AND IF YOU THINK ABOUT KIND OF DECISION- MAKING CALCULUS FOR THESE COMPANIES, THE PRESSURE THAT THEY FEEL TO MOVE FAST, IT'S A QUESTION OF HOW MUCH ARE YOU DOING, HOW MANY EXPERIMENTS ARE YOU RUNNING AT ONCE, HOW CAREFULLY YOU'RE CHECKING THE SETUP FOR EACH OF THE EXPERIMENTS IN ADVANCE.

IF WE --IF THEY FELT THAT THEY HAD THE TIME, AND MAYBE THEY SHOULD JUST DO THIS ANY WAY, BUT IF THEY FEEL THEY HAVE TIME, THERE IS A LOFT MEASURES THEY CAN TAKE TO MAKE IT LESS RISKY.

THE CHALLENGE IS --I WOULD ARGUE THEY'RE RECKLESSLY PRIORITIZING TRYING TO STAY AT THE CUTTING EDGE RATHER THAN PRIORITIZING MAKING SURE WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS SAFE.

WHAT THEY'RE SAYING FROM INSIDE THE INDUSTRY, THEY FEEL THEY HAVE TO BEHAVE THIS WAY BECAUSE IF THEY DON'T, SOMEBODY ELSE WILL.

THAT'S WHY THEY'RE ASKING FOR EXTERNAL HELP.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE THEY'RE COMMITTING TO STEPS THEY CAN DO STHEMSS.

-- THEMSELVES.

ALLOWING EXTERNAL AUDITORS TO STAY IN, THAT IS A GOOD FIRST STEP AND ONE THEY CAN DO VOLUNTARILY.

>> AND YOU SEE THE SAME REACTION SORT OF UNANIMOUSLY FROM THE HEADS OF ALL OF THESE COMPANIES AND THE BIG PLAYERS FROM DENNIS TSAY ASAABIS AND DARIO LEADING THE WAY THIS WEEKEND.

BUT THERE ARE SOME DETRACTORS OR SOME SKEPTICS OUT THERE.

JENSEN HUANG SAYING THESE ARE SALES TACTICS.

WHAT BETTER WAY TO CREATE DEMAND THAN TO CREATE A PROBLEM.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF HIS RESPONSE THERE?

AND IS THERE REASON TO BE SKEPTICAL OF THEIR SOUNDING THE ALARM JUST MONTHS BEFORE WHAT FOR AT LEAST TWO OF THESE COMPANIES IS EXPECTED TO BE MAJOR IPOs?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, I THINK WE SHOULD ALWAYS BRING A HEALTHY DOSE OF SKEPTICISM TO ANYTHING WE'RE HEARING FROM CEOs OF SOME OF THE MOST POWERFUL COMPANIES IN THE WORLD.

SO I THINK THAT'S APPROPRIATE.

I THINK THE CHALLENGE IS THAT IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY MAKE MUCH SENSE.

I'VE NEVER SEEN A MARKETING TEAM SUGGEST LET'S GO OUT THERE AND SAY OUR PRODUCT COMMITTED MULTIPLE POTENTIAL FELONIES AS A MARKETING TACTIC.

I DON'T THINK THAT IS WHAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THEY WOULD BE ADVISING.

AND, YOU KNOW, MORE SPECIFICALLY, I CAN SAY AS SOMEONE WHO SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN AND AROUND THIS INDUSTRY, WHAT THE CEOs ARE SAYING IS IN LARGE PART DRIVEN BY IN PART THEIR OWN VIEWS, BUT ALSO THE VIEWS OF A LOT OF THEIR EMPLOYEES.

SO YOU HAVE REALLY TOP RESEARCHERS WHO ARE REALLY CONCERNED HERE AND PUTTING A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THEIR EMPLOYERS ON THE CEOs TO BE HONEST ABOUT THE RISK AND TO TAKE SERIOUS MEASURES TO PREVENT THE RISKS.

THAT DYNAMIC OF THE KIND OF PRESSURE FROM EMPLOYEES TO DO THE RIGHT THING IS PRETTY INTERESTING AND I THINK IS AN IMPORTANT DRIVER OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING AS WELL, MUCH MORE THAN ANY KIND OF ATTEMPT TO BOOS VALUATIONS OR ANYTHING PREIPO.

>> SO IN ADDITION TO JENSEN HUANG, WE HEARD THE PRESIDENT RESPOND BY MULTIPLE POSTS.

FIST, LET'S HEAR SOUND FROM HIM WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT THE SOUNDING OF THE ALARM.

>> WHOEVER WINS AI, WINS.

AND WE CAN PUT GUARDRAILING DO AND THIS AND THAT, BUT SHOULDN'T BE BRINGING IT UP AND THEY'RE BRINGING UP THINGS THAT WON'T HAPPEN.

BUT WHOEVER WINS WITH AI, WINS.

IT'S AN EXPRESSION THAT I CAME UP WITH, AND IT'S TRUE.

.

>> OKAY.

SO HE WENT ON TODAY THEN TO POST THAT THE ONLY CONTROL OR GUARDRAILS THAT AI NEEDS IS A STRONG AND SMART HIGH IQ PRESIDENT, AND THE USA HAS THAT IN SPADES.

TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF.

AND THEN WENT ON THE SAY, "THIS IS A SICK CONSPIRACY GOING ON AGAINST AI AND DATA CENTERS. "

ALSO, DAVID SAXE, WHO IS THE PRO CHAIR COUNCIL OF THE PRESIDENT'S ADVISER ON SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY HAD THIS TO SAY IN A SOCIAL MEDIA POST, SAYING GO AHEAD, IF YOU WANT TO REGULATE YOURSELF, IF YOU WANT TO SLOW DOWN YOU HAVE ALL THE RIGHT TO DO THAT NOW.

I SUPPORT YOUR DECISION TO BE RESPONSIBLE.

BUT STOP PRETENDING THAT THE MOTIVATION TO SLOW DOWN IS PURELY ALTRUISTIC.

DO YOU WANT TO RESPOND THAT TO THAT?

AND WHAT IMPACT DOES IT HAVE ON THE INDUSTRY WHEN YOU HAVE THAT KIND OF COMMENT AND NARRATIVE COMING OUT OF THE WHITE HOUSE?

>> YEAH, I MEAN I THINK IT ABSOLUTELY MAKES SENSE FOR THE PRESIDENT TO BE TRACKING COMPETITION CHINA AND WHAT IMPACT THAT WOULD HAVE.

I THINK AN APPROACH WHERE WE JUST SAY LET'S JUST SCREECH TO A HALT EVERYTHING HAPPENING IN THE U. S. AND NOT WORRY ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN CHINA WOULD NOT BE A SMART APPROACH.

FORTUNATELY, I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT ANYONE IS SUGGESTING HERE.

I ALSO THINK IT'S WORTH TAKING SERIOUSLY AS WE THINK ABOUT THAT COMPETITION WITH CHINA THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS ALSO BEEN VERY VOCAL IN ACCUSING CHINA OF SO-CALLED DISTILLING U. S. MODELS, MEANING ESSENTIALLY USING USA AI TO CREATE TRAINING DATA TO IMPROVE CHINESE AI, AND THEY'VE SAID THAT'S A CORE PART OF CHINA'S AI DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY.

IF IT'S CLEAR, IT'S UNCLEAR THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT'S TRUE.

BUT IF CHINA IS USING U. S. AI TO KEEP UP, THEN SLOWING DOWN IN THE U. S. WOULDN'T LET CHINA RACE PAST US.

IT MIGHT ALSO HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE SPEED OF WHICH THEY'RE MOVES.

BUT I THINK IT'S A SERIOUS SET OF TRADE-OFFS.

THERE IS ALSO THE QUESTION OF CAN THEY JUST DO THIS VOLUNTARILY OR DO THEY NEED EXTERNAL ENFORCEMENT.

I THINK THERE ARE GOOD INITIAL STEPS THAT THE COMPANIES CAN TAKE, BUT WANTING TO HAVE A REGIME WHERE THEY ARE ACTUALLY MAKING THE RIGHT DECISIONS OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME AND WHERE ALL OF THE RIGHT ACTORS ARE COVERED AS OTHER COMPANIES START TO ADVANCE TOWARDS THE FRONTIER, IS GOOGLE INCLUDED, IS SPACEX INCLUDED.

I THINK YOU NEED TO HAVE AN ENFORCEABLE SOLUTION AND NOT SELF-GOVERNANCE.

>> AND ELON MUSK SAID HE BELIEVES CHINA SHOULD BE SEATED AT THE TABLE FOR THESE CONVERSATIONS.

AMODEI TAGGED THAT THE TOUGHEST DILEMMA IS WHAT HAPPENS IF CHINA DOES NOT DO THE SAME.

WE HEARD THE OFFICIAL COMMENTS FROM THE FOREIGN MINISTRY THERE SAYING THAT THIS IS ALL FEARMONGERING FROM THESE COMPANIES, SORT OF COLD WAR TACTICS, AS THEY DESCRIBE IT.

YOU ALSO AGREE THAT COMPETING WITH CHINA MATTERS, BUT THAT THEY NEED TO BE ADHERING TO SOME OF THESE RISKS AS WELL.

IT'S MUCH HARDER TO GET A SENSE OF WHERE THESE DEVELOPERS IN CHINA ARE VERSUS WHAT THE OFFICIAL STATEMENTS FROM THE GOVERNMENT IS RIGHT NOW.

WHAT DO WE KNOW ON THAT FRONT?

DO WE THINK THAT CHINA IS PERHAPS MORE CONCERNED THAN THEY ARE LEADING ON RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK THE PERSPECTIVES --A RANGE OF PERSPECTIVES IN THE U. S. AND A RANGE OF PERSPECTIVES IN CHINA.

I THINK THE RANGE IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

I THINK WE ARE SEEING SOME AMOUNT OF INCREASING CONCERN ON THE CHINESE SIDE, BUT THEY DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME CONCERNS AS THE U. S. DOES.

I DON'T THINK THEY'RE SEEING THE SAME LEVEL OF ALARM FROM INSIDE THEIR INDUSTRY JUST YET ABOUT THE SPEED OF ADVANCEMENT.

THEY ARE THINKING MORE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING.

THE MINISTER FOR STATE SECURITIES IS A VERY POWERFUL MINISTRY IN CHINA.

SORT OF LIKE A CROSS BETWEEN THE CIA AND THE FBI.

HAD AN ARTICLE RECENTLY ABOUT AI AND THE TOP TWO CONCERNS THAT HE LISTED FOR AI WERE REGIME STABILITY AND CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE STABILITY.

AND SO THAT SHOWS THE FACT THAT THAT MINISTER IS WEIGHING IN, THE FACT THAT THOSE ARE THE CONCERNS HE IS NAMING SHOWS THIS IS REGISTERING.

THE CHALLENGE IS CHINA IS REALLY PRIMED TO TAKE ANYTHING THE U. S. WANTS TO DO ON TECHNOLOGY AS AN APPROACH TO SLOW DOWN CHINA.

SO WE'RE SEEING THAT IN THEIR MESSAGING AS WELL.

ANY TALK OF PACING THE FRONTIER, ALL YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS PACE CHINA AND YOU JUST WANT TO RACE AHEAD AND MAKE CHINA'S LIFE MORE DIFFICULT.

PRESSURE ONLY COMING FROM THE U. S. IS NOT GOING TO WORK HERE.

THEY'RE GOING HAVE TO BE LISTENING TO THEIR OWN SCIENTISTS AND EXPERTS AS WELL IF WE'RE GOING MAKE ANY PROGRESS.

>> AND THEY ARE ESTIMATED TO BE SEVERAL MONTHS BEHIND THE U. S. ON THIS TECHNOLOGY.

OBVIOUSLY AUTHORITARIAN STATES WOULD USE THIS TECHNOLOGY DIFFERENT.

SO WHAT MAY NOT ALARM THEM TODAY COULD VERY WELL ALARM THEM IN A FEW MONTHS' TIME.

QUICKLY, IN THE FINAL SECONDS WE HAVE, HOW EQUIPPED IS CONGRESS TO ADDRESS THIS RIGHT NOW?

YOU'VE TESTIFIED BEFORE CONGRESS BEFORE.

>> I THINK CONGRESS IS MAKING GOOD PROGRESS HERE.

THEY'RE PAYING MORE ATTENTION.

THEY'RE COMING UP WITH MORE SERIOUS PROPOSALS.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY GOING TO BE PRETTY TOUGH TO GET ANYTHING SERIOUS PAST BEFORE THE MIDTERMS.

BUT I THINK THE NEXT CONGRESS IS GOING TO COME BACK AND HAVE THIS PRETTY HIGH ON THEIR PRIORITY LIST.

MY ONLY HOPE IS WE CAN GET SOMETHING REASONABLE ON THE BOOKS HERE WITHOUT NEEDING TO WAIT FOR MORE INCIDENTS, MORE ATTACKS.

IDEALLY, NOTHING THAT REALLY CAUSES GENUINE HARM.

IF WE CAN TAKE THINGS LIKE THE HUGGING FACE ATTACK WHICH WAS VERY SERIOUS FROM AN AI PERSPECTIVE BUT DIDN'T ACTUALLY HURT ANYONE, WE CAN MAKE BETTER POLICY BASED ON THAT, THAT WOULD BE GREAT.

>> ALL RIGHT, HELEN TONER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF GEORGETOWN CENTER FOR SECURITY AND EMERGING TECHNOLOGY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NOW, THIS IS A TRIAL FROM GOD, WORDS FROM A DISPLACED MOTHER IN YEMEN, WHO LIKE NEARLY 86,000 OTHERS WAS FORCED TO FLEE HER HOME AS THE IRAN-BACKED HOUTHI FORCES MAKE MAJOR ADVANCES IN THE WEST OF THE COUNTRY AND LAY CLAIM TO STRATEGIC POSITIONS ALONG THE RED SEA COASTLINE.

AMONG THE CAPTURED LOCATIONS IS PARAM ISLAND AND A STRAIT WHERE THE HOUTHIS HAVE SOUGHT CONTROL.

THEY'RE TARGETING SAUDI ARABIA'S MILITARY BASES AND OIL INFRASTRUCTURE AS THE COUNTRY CONTENDS WITH DAMAGE TO ITS KEY EAST- WEST OIL PIPELINE AS DRONE ATTACKS SHUT IT DOWN, JEOPARDIZING UP TO 4% OF THECALCULATING ATTACKS MEAN FOR THE GULF COAST?

HISHAM AL- OMEISY UNDERSTANDS THE TACTIC VERY WELL.

HE WAS HELD CAPTIVE BY THE GROUP IN 2017 AND IS CURRENTLY A SENIOR YEMEN ADVISER WITH THE EUROPEAN CENTER FOR PIECE.

HISHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US.

FIRST OF ALL, HOW HAVE THE HOUTHIS, IN YOUR VIEW, BEEN ABLE TO ADVANCE AND REGROUP SO QUICKLY?

>> THEY MANAGED TO EXPLOIT THE CEASEFIRE WITH THE SAUDIS AND IN ADDITION TO THE UNITED STATES.

AND THEY EXPLOITED THE BICKERING AND INFIGHTING WITHIN THE COALITION AND THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE YEMENI PRESIDENTIAL LEADERSHIP COUNCIL.

I'VE SEEN A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING THEY WERE SURPRISED BY THE HOUTHI ADVANCE.

IF YOU ASK YEMENESE, THEY WEREN'T.

THEY'VE SEEN THE YEMENESE MOBILIZE FOR THE BETTER PART OF THE LAST TWO YEARS.

THEIR RECRUITMENT CAMPAIGN WAS MASSIVE.

THEY'VE BOLSTERED THEIR FRONT LINES.

THEY'VE ACQUIRED ADDITIONAL TECHNOLOGIES FROM IRAN.

THEY'VE GOTTEN A LOT MORE WEAPONS.

THEY HAVE A LOT MORE WEAPONS.

THEY'VE BEEN PREPARING FOR.

THEY MADE NO SECRET ABOUT THEIR ADVANCES TOWARDS THE GOVERNMENT-CONTROLLED AREAS.

IT WAS INEVITABLE.

AND WE'VE SEEN THEM CRASH THROUGH THE GATE OVER THE LAST WEEK.

AND IT SENDS A STRONG MESSAGE THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS NEVER READY FOR A HOUTHI ADVANCE.

>> YEAH, I HEARD ANALYSIS THAT SUGGESTED THAT PERHAPS THIS WAS LESS ABOUT CURRENT HOUTHI STRENGTH AND MORE ABOUT LACK OF COHESIVENESS AMONGST THE DIFFERENT FACTIONS WITHIN THE OPPOSITION.

DO YOU AGREE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE PLC WAS INTRODUCED FOR IN 2022.

THE PRESIDENTIAL LEADERSHIP COUNCIL IS A COUNCIL MADE OF EIGHT MEMBERS.

ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS BEHIND CREATING THAT COUNCIL WAS THAT TO CREATE A MORE COHESIVE UNIT BETWEEN THE VARIOUS FACTIONS IN THE COALITION.

UNFORTUNATELY, MISCOMMUNICATION, INFIGHTING, DIVERGENT AGENDAS CONTINUED IN THAT COUNCIL.

AND YOU CAN IMAGINE ON THE GROUND WITH MULTIPLE ADDITIONAL FACTIONS AND WITH THE SAME STORY, THE SAME RECURRING THEME, IT CONTINUED TO WEAKEN ANTI-HOUTHI COALITION.

SO, YES, I'VE SEEN A LOT OF RHETORIC OVER THE PAST WEEK SAYING THE HOUTHIS HAVE GROWN IN STRENGTH.

BUT STORY IS NOT ABOUT THE STRENGTH OF THE HOUTHIS ALONE.

IT ALSO HAS TO DO WITH THE ANTI-HOUTHI COALITION BEING WEAKENED BY THEIR INTERNAL FIGHTING.

>> THE HOUTHIS, AS WE NOTED IN THE INTRODUCTION HAVE TAKEN MOKA AND PARAM ISLAND.

WHAT CAN THEY DO NOW PRIOR TO CAPTURING THESE ISLANDS?

>> A LOT.

IN ADDITION TO TERRITORIAL GAINS THEY MADE INSIDE THE COUNTRY, IN ADDITION TO DRIVING THE YEMENI GOVERNMENT OUT, IN ADDITION TO WEAKENING THE TERRITORY CONTROL OF THE INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED CABINET, THEY CAN THREATEN INTERNATIONAL MARITIME ROUTES, BUT THEY CAN ALSO USE THEIR PRESENCE AND THIS NEWLY ACQUIRED TERRITORIES TO LEVERAGE THEIR POSITION TO EXTRACT ADDITIONAL CONCESSIONS FROM REGIONAL POWERS AS WELL AS INTERNATIONAL POWERS.

ALL THEY NEED TO DO IS LOB A COUPLE OF MISSILES INTO THE RED SEA AND ASKING FOR INSTANCE FOR TOLL FEES FOR SHIPS GOING THROUGH.

THEY CAN USE IT AS POLITICAL LEVERAGE.

THEY CAN REALLY CONSOLIDATE POWER NOT JUST THERE, BUT ALSO USE THAT AS LAUNCH PAD TO BASICALLY ACQUIRE ADDITIONAL TERRITORIES IN YEMEN.

YOU TO REMEMBER THEIR AMBITION IS NOT JUST TO TAKE YEMEN.

THEIR AMBITION IS TO TAKE THE REST OF THE COUNTRY AND CONTROL THAT PART OF THE ARABIAN PENINSULA.

>> TO YOUR POINT THAT NONE OF THIS SHOULD BE SEEN AS A SURPRISE, I'D LIKE TO PLAY SOME SOUND FROM A VERY FRUSTRATED YEMENI VICE PRESIDENT.

>> Translator: WE TOLD THE WORLD THAT THIS IS AN IRANIAN PLAN, BUT NO ONE LISTENED TO YEMENIS BACK THEN, THAT THIS IS A BATTLE THAT WOULD NOT ONLY AFFECT YEMENIS, BUT THE REGION AND INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

>> THIS IS IRAN TRYING TO PUT PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> EXACTLY.

>> ARE YOU GETTING ANY SUPPORT FROM THE UNITED STATES?

>> JUST TALK.

>> JUST TALK.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

[ LAUGHTER ] DISAPPOINTED, HE SAYS.

>> JUST FROM THE UNITED STATES AND REPORTING FROM CNN AND AXIOS THAT SALEH CALLED PRESIDENT TRUMP MULTIPLE TIMES ASKING HIM TO STRIKE THE HOUTHIS WHICH PRESIDENT TRUMP THEN DECLINED.

WHAT OPTIONS ARE THERE AVAILABLE FOR YEMENIS INTERNATIONALLY BACK AND RECOGNIZE THE NEED TO RECOVER AT THIS POINT?

>> LET ME START WHERE I AGREE WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT.

THE NATIONAL RESISTANCE WHICH HE HEADS AND WAS CONTROLLING THE WEST COAST HAS BEEN REQUESTING A LOT OF SUPPORT OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS.

THEY WARNED THAT THE HOUTHIS ARE AT THE GATES.

THEY ASK FOR MORE MANPOWER.

THEY ASKED FOR ANTI-DRONE TECHNOLOGIES.

THEY ASKED FOR MUNITIONS, LOGISTICAL SUPPORT, BUT NONE OF THAT CAME THROUGH.

BUT THEY ASKED A LOT OF PEOPLE, TO BE FAIR.

WHEN BASICALLY THE HOUTHIS BULLDOZED THEIR WAY THROUGH THE WEST COAST, EVERYBODY ACCUSED THEM OF RUNNING AWAY.

THEY DIDN'T RUNAWAY.

THERE IS ABOUT 1500 SOLDIERS THAT WERE KILLED IN TRYING TO DEFEND THOSE TERRITORIES, BUT THEY FAILED.

THEY WERE OVERWHELMED.

NOW, IN TERMS OF WHAT THE INTERNATIONAL RECOGNIZED GOVERNMENT CAN DO, FIRST OF ALL, THEY NEED TO GET THEIR ACT TOGETHER.

THEY NEED A MORE COHESIVE PLAN.

THESE INDEPENDENT MILITARY FORMATIONS DON'T MAKE FOR A COLLECTIVE FORCE.

IF THEIR COMMUNICATION BETWEEN THEMSELVES IS NOT STREAMLINED, THEY NEED TO GET ON THE SAME PAGE FIRST.

THEY NEED TO FORGO THEIR DIFFERENCES TO SOLELY DEFY THEIR RANKS.

OTHERWISE HOUTHIS WILL CONTINUE TO EXPLOIT THE CRACKS, AND THEY'RE REALLY GOOD AT IT.

THEY'VE PROVEN THEMSELVES OVERRUNNING THE CAPITAL SANAA AND OVERRUNNING AMMAN AND PARTS OF THE COUNTRY ALL THE WAY TO THE SOUTH BY EXPLOITING CRACKS WITHIN THE ANTI- HOUTHI COALITION.

NOW TO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL COMMUNITY AS WELL, IF YOU ARE CONTEMPLATING STRIKING A DEAL WITH THE HOUTHIS, THAT IS PROBLEMATIC.

YOU'RE LOOKING AT SHORT-TERM GAINS AND SHORT-TERM PEACE FOR A MUCH LARGER, MUCH LONGER HEADACHE, BECAUSE THE HOUTHIS HAVE PROVEN IN THE PAST THAT THEY RENEGE ON THEIR DEALS, THAT THEY ALWAYS REGROUP, GET BOLDER, AND ATTACK AND RAISE THE BAR ON THEIR DEMANDS.

WE'VE SEEN IT IN 2015, 2017.

WE'VE SEEN IT WHEN THEY ATTACKED THE SHIPS IN THE RED SEA IN 2023, AND WE'VE SEEN IT NOW, EVEN AFTER SIGNING THE STOCKHOLM AGREEMENT.

THEY RENEGED ON THAT AGREEMENT AND THEY ATTACKED.

.

>> THE GO-TO INSTINCT AS YOU POINTED OUT IS ALWAYS TO ASK THE UNITED STATES TO INTERVENE AND FOR HELP.

NO DOUBT THE WORLD'S DOMINANT MILITARY POWER, DESPITE HAVING DEPLETED SOME OF ITS RESOURCES, OR AT LEAST AT THE RISK OF DEPLETING SOME OF ITS MILITARY WEAPONS, BY FAR THE STRONGEST IN THE WORLD.

AT THE SAME TIME, I DO RECALL IT WAS ONLY A FEW WEEKS AGO THAT WE SAW DEFENSE PACTS SIGNED BETWEEN SAUDI ARABIA, TURKEY, AND PAKISTAN.

WOULD THIS NOT BE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW SOME OF THE FRUITION OF THAT DEFENSIVE PACT?

AND HAVE WE SEEN ANY OF IT?

>> WELL WE HAVE TO FLESH OUT THAT PACT.

THAT PACT IS DEFENSIVE TO PROTECT SAUDI TERRITORY.

IT DOESN'T REALLY HELP YEMENIS MUCH.

EVEN THE PAKISTANIS CAME OUT AND SAID WE'LL DEFEND SAUDI TERRITORY.

AND IT TAKES EFFECT FROM THE SIGNING OF THAT PACT.

IT DOESN'T COVER PREEXISTING CONDITIONS, WHICH FIGHTING WITH THE HOUTHIS.

BUT, AGAIN, IT DOESN'T REALLY IMPACT THE FIGHTING.

THE FIGHTING IN YEMEN HAS PROVEN NOW AND AGAIN IT AS A SPILLOVER EFFECT.

THIS FIGHT IS NOT GOING TO BE CONTAINED WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OR THE BORDERS OF YEMEN.

IT WILL ALWAYS SPILL OVER, AS WE'VE SEEN BEFORE IN THE RED SEA, AND NOW OF COURSE WITH THE HOUTHIS ATTACKING SAUDI.

AND THEY'VE ATTACKED OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE PAST.

IT'S JUST A MATTER OF TIME WHEN THIS WILL HAPPEN AGAIN.

>> SO TO THAT POINT, THOUGH, OF SAUDI, WE SEE THEIR DRONES.

THEY'RE SAYING THAT DRONES HIT THEIR OIL PIPELINE THAT WAS FROM IRAQ.

BUT THERE IS A BIG CONCERN ABOUT INCREASED FIGHTING FROM THE HOUTHIS AGAINST THE SAUDIS.

THE SAUDIS HAVE IN FACT SAID THEY WOULD NOW POSTPONE A GULF IRAN MEETING IN OMAN.

SO WHO HAS THE LEVERAGE HERE TO REIN IN THE HOUTHIS?

IS IT IRAN ITSELF?

>> IRAN TO A DEGREE HAS LEVERAGE, BUT ULTIMATELY, THE HOUTHIS HAVE THEIR OWN MIND-SET.

THEY HAVE THEIR OWN AMBITIONS, THEY HAVE THEIR OWN OBJECTIVES.

AND CURRENT I THEY'RE TRYING TO REJECT REGIONAL POWER AND THEY'RE TRYING TO COURT RECESSIONS FROM THE SAUDIS.

FOR PAST TWO YEARS THE HOUTHIS WERE DEMANDING THAT THE SAUDIS PAY PUBLIC SALARIES, THAT THEY PAY REPARATIONS, DEMANDING THAT THE SAUDIS PAY FOR FIXING THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WAS DESTROYED OVER THE PAST TEN YEARS.

AND THEY'RE EMBOLDENED BY THE FACT THAT THEY ACTUALLY CONTROL TERRITORY, BUT ALSO BECAUSE THEY'RE ABLE TO EXPLOIT CRACKS WITHIN THE INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED GOVERNMENT.

AND KNOW THAT THE SAUDIS ARE IN A WEAK POSITION, AND THEY'RE CREATING THIS PINCER BETWEEN IRAN AND THE HOUTHIS.

THEY'RE PRESSURING SAUDI AND MAKING IT COSTLY FOR THE SAUDIS TO CONTINUE THIS CONFLICT.

AND BY DOING THAT, THEY'RE HOPING THAT THEY WILL GET THEIR DEMANDS.

>> SHOULD THE PRESIDENT HAVE ANSWERED MBS'S CALL TO INTERVENE, PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> WELL, LET'S BE FAIR HERE.

THE U. S. IS ENGAGED IN WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, AND THERE IS A HEMORRHAGING OF A LOT OF RESOURCES.

ENGAGEMENT IN YEMEN IS GOING TO BE COSTLY.

WE USE MISSILES THAT COST $2 MILLION SHOT DOWN BY DRONES AT $2,000.

IT'S GOING TO BE COSTLY.

BUT THERE IS GOING TO BE A THRESHOLD REACHED WHERE WE WILL HAVE TO BASICALLY BALANCE AND EVALUATE THE LOSS FROM WHAT HOUTHIS ARE DOING IN THE RED SEA, IN THE ARABIAN SEA, BUT ALSO TARGETING OUR ALLIES.

WHEN THE HOUTHIS TARGET OUR ALLIES IN THE REGION, SAUDIS, EMIRATIS AND OTHERS IN THE REGION, EVENTUALLY WE PAY THE COST IN TERMS OF RISING COST OF GOODS, BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF RISING COST OF OIL AS WELL.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, AS WE NOTED, YOU WERE HELD CAPTIVE BY THE HOUTHIS YOURSELF FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.

WHAT IS THEIR ADVANCE MEAN FOR THE CIVILIAN POPULATION IN THE COUNTRY NOW?

>> IT'S DEVASTATING.

HONESTLY, I SAW THEM LIBERATING THEIR OWN PRISONERS, THE HOUTHIS WHEN THEY WIN, THEIR OWN SOLDIERS.

I WAS HEARTBROKEN, BECAUSE I WAS HOPING THAT THE GOVERNMENT WOULD BE LIBERATING THE PRISONERS THAT ARE HELD.

HAVE I MY OWN COLLEAGUES WHO WORK FOR THE STATE DEPARTMENT FOR THE U. S. EMBASSY IN YEMEN, AND THEY'RE BEING TORTURED, AND ONE OF THEM ALREADY DIED IN PRISON.

AND WHAT'S FRUSTRATING FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE IN YEMEN, WHEN THEY EXPECTED A BIT OF A WIN BY THE YEMENI GOVERNMENT SECURING PRISONER SWAPS, RELEASING PRISONERS, BUT THE OPPOSITE HAPPENED.

HOUTHIS TOOK ADDITIONAL TERRITORY, THEY RELEASED THEIR OWN PRISONERS, AND NOW PEOPLE ARE BECOMING MORE CYNICAL, MORE APATHETIC TO THE CURRENT CONFLICT AND LOSING HOPE.

>> WELL, THE WORLD FOOD PROGRAM HAS SUSPENDED FOOD AID FOR LACK OF MONEY.

HOUTHI DETENTIONS HAVE HALTED U. N. OPERATIONS IN THE NORTH.

HOW DIRE CAN IT GET IN TERMS OF GIVING THE CIVILIANS THE AID THAT THEY NEED?

>> THE AID HAS BEEN DWINDLING FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS TO BEGIN WITH.

THE HOUTHIS KICKING ORGANIZATIONS OUT OF THE COUNTRY, IT'S GETTING MUCH WORSE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO NEED AID.

THERE IS ALMOST I THINK IT WAS 82% OF THE POPULATION THAT NEEDS SOME FORM OF AID INSIDE THE COUNTRY.

WITH DWINDLING FUNDING, WITH ORGANIZATIONS LEAVING THE COUNTRY, IT'S GETTING MUCH WORSE.

THERE IS A LACK OF SERVICES.

THERE IS A LACK OF CLEAN WATER.

BASIC SERVICE IS NOT THERE.

ELECTRICITY IS NOT THERE.

WITH THE RECENT FIGHTING, WAVE OF FIGHTING, JUST LAST WEEK WE HAD A WAVE OF DISPLACEMENT, I THINK IT WAS 80,000 PEOPLE THAT WERE FORCED TO OTHER AREAS, BUT ALSO FORCED OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

I THINK 2,000 PEOPLE ARRIVED IN DJIBOUTI OVER THE PAST 48 HOURS.

THE SITUATION ON THE GROUND IS GETTING WORSE BY THE HOUR.

>> AND AS YOU NOTED, NONE OF THIS SHOULD COME AS A SURPRISE BECAUSE THOSE, THE RECOGNIZED GOVERNMENT THERE HAS BEEN SOUNDING THE ALARM FOR A LONG TIME NOW.

AND YOU SAY THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THE FACT THAT THE OPPOSITION CANNOT GET THE COORDINATION THAT IT NEEDS TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE HOUTHI REBELS MAKING THEIR ADVANCEMENT.

HISHAM AL-OMEISY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR EXPERTISE AND FOR SHARING YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> NOW PUBLIC TRUST IN THE U. S. MILITARY HAS FALLEN TO ONE OF ITS LOWEST LEVELS IN THE LAST 25 YEARS.

WITH JUST 61% OF AMERICANS SAYING THEY HAVE CONFIDENCE IN IT.

BUT SIGNS OF DISCONTENT ARE ALSO EMERGING FROM WITHIN THE MILITARY.

EARLIER THIS MONTH, U. S. ARMY SECRETARY DAN DRISCOLL BECAME THE LATEST IN A STRING OF HIGH PROFILE LEADERS TO DEPART FROM THE RANKS.

AND WHILE DRISCOLL CHOSE TO LEAVE, OTHERS HAVE BEEN FORCIBLY SIDELINED AND REMOVED BY THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, PETE HEGSETH, AS PART OF A CAMPAIGN AGAINST WHAT HE CALLS DEI AND WOKE.

TO DISCUSS WHAT HEGSETH'S OVERHAUL MEANS FOR THE FUTURE OF THE MILITARY, FORMER U. S. NAVY OFFICER THEODORE JOHNSON JOINS MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

TED JOHNSON, THANKS SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> ALWAYS GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE SCALE OF THE CHANGES AT THE TOP OF THE PENTAGON.

THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, AS HE PREFERS, SECRETARY OF WAR, PETE HEGSETH HAS FIRED OR BLOCKED THE PROMOTIONS OF MORE THAN 80 GENERALS AND ADMIRALS.

THAT'S ABOUT 10% OF THE MILITARY'S TOP OFFICERS.

THAT'S THE COUNT OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES. "

WE KNOW THAT THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS WAS FIRED EARLY IN TRUMP'S SECOND TERM.

THE HEADS OF THE ARMY, THE NAVY AND THE AIR FORCE HAVE EITHER BEEN REPLACED OR LEFT EARLY.

AS WE WERE SPEAKING, THE SECRETARY OF THE ARMY JUST RESIGNED, AND WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ACTIVE MILITARY CONFLICT.

WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S DRIVING ALL THIS TURNOVER?

>> YEAH, SO THERE IS A FEW THINGS GOING ON HERE.

THE FIRST THING IS SECRETARY HEGSETH WAS GIVEN THE MANDATE WHEN HE STARTED TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF FOUR STARS ACROSS THE MILITARY.

AND, YOU KNOW, A NUMBER OF MILITARY FOLKS HAVE SAID FOR YEARS THE MILITARY IS A LITTLE TOP-HEAVY.

SO THE FACT THAT HE IS REDUCING THE NUMBER OF FOUR STARS AT THE PENTAGON, ACROSS THE SERVICE, THAT WAS PART OF THE PLAN.

THE STORY IS HOW HE IS DOING AND WHO IS HE CHOOSING TO LET GO.

THAT WASN'T PART OF THE PLAN.

THE FIRST THING HE DID WAS ENACT TRUMP'S ANTI-DEI AGENDA TO REDUCE THE RANKS OF THE MILITARY, GOING AFTER BLACK OFFICERS, GOING AFTER WOMEN, GOING AFTER PEOPLE HE BELIEVED DIDN'T EARN THEIR POSITION UNDER DEI GENERALS, NO MATTER THEIR RACE OR GENDER.

THE NEXT THING HE DID WAS ESSENTIALLY PUSH PEOPLE OUT WITHOUT THE PROPER RECOGNITION OF THEIR DECADES OF SERVICE.

AND SO SORT OF LIKE JUST UNGRACIOUSLY DISMISSED FROM THEIR JOBS, EVEN WHEN THEY WERE ON PROMOTION LISTS, EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE THE RESPECT OF THEIR COLLEAGUES, AND EVEN WHEN THEIR CAREER TRAJECTORY SUGGESTS THIS WAS THE LOGICAL NEXT STEP FOR THEIR CAREERS, THEY WERE UNCEREMONIOUSLY LET GO.

SO THE PROBLEM IS THE MANNER THAT HE IS GOING ABOUT THE MANDATE AND WHO HE IS CHOOSING TO, YOU KNOW, RID THE ARMY OF, RID THE MILITARY OF.

>> SO TO YOUR POINT, THE RACIAL AND GENDER PATTERN IN HIS DECISIONS CAN'T BE IGNORED.

MORE THAN HALF --MORE THAN HALF OF THE OFFICERS AFFECTED BY SECRETARY HEGSETH'S DISMISSALS ARE BLACK OR FEMALE.

THERE ARE CURRENTLY NO ACTIVE DUTY FEMALE FOUR-STAR GENERALS OR ADMIRALS.

THIS IS THE LOWEST PERCENTAGE OF WOMEN NOMINATED FOR GENERAL OR ADMIRAL IN AT LEAST 25 YEARS.

I GUESS THE FIRST QUESTION I HAVE IS HOW WOULD HE KNOW WHETHER THESE PEOPLE WERE QUALIFIED FOR THEIR POSITIONS OR NOT?

>> HE DOESN'T.

THAT'S THE THING.

LOOK, THERE IS ONE FAIL-SAFE WAY TO KNOW WHETHER THE PERSON IS QUALIFIED.

LOOK AT THEIR RECORD.

THEY HAVE EVERY YEAR OFFICERS ARE EVALUATED BY THEIR SUPERIOR OFFICERS ON THEIR PERFORMANCE.

YOU DON'T SPEND 25, 30 YEARS IN THE MILITARY BY FAILING EVERY EVALUATION.

THE VERY FACT THAT THEIR NAMES ARE ON THE LIST SUGGESTS THAT THEY'RE QUALIFIED.

THE NEXT THING TO DO IS TRUST YOUR SENIOR OFFICERS AROUND YOU TO SPEAK TO THE PERSON'S CHARACTER, THEIR SERVICE, THEIR REPUTATION AND THEIR POTENTIAL, INSTEAD OF RELYING ON YOUR OWN, YOU KNOW, SORT OF WHIMS AND THE POLITICAL WINDS TO MAKE CHOICES ABOUT WHO SHOULD LEAD THE MILITARY.

SO THIS IS NOT HOW BUSINESS IS DONE.

THE MILITARY IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE ONE OF THE MOST MERIT SYSTEMS IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S UNDERMINED BY NEPTISM OTISM AND AT A TIME WITH THE WAR AND THE GULF.

>> CHIEF PENTAGON SPAM SEAN PARNELL SAID MILITARY PROMOTIONS ARE GIVEN TO THOSE WHO EARNED THEM.

THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE UNDER SECRETARY HEGSETH AND WILL NOT CHANGE.

AND OF COURSE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CONTINUED TO DEFEND HIM.

DESPITE THE FACT SOME MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO ARE REPUBLICANS ARE STARTING TO QUESTION THESE DECISIONS.

BUT HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THEIR NOTION THAT THEIR ASSERTION THAT RACE OR GENDER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT?

>> YEAH, IT'S JUST NOT TRUE.

BECAUSE IF THAT WERE THE CASE, THE VAST MAJORITY OF ADMIRALS AND GENERALS ARE WHITE MEN.

AND THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT HAVE BEEN FIRE READY NOT.

SO EVEN IF YOU'RE JUST TO GET RID OF THE CHAFF, THE DEAD WEIGHT, AS HE WOULD SAY, IT WOULD LOOK RACIALLY LIKE THE FLAG OFFICERS AND GENERAL OFFICERS THAT ARE SERVING.

IT DOESN'T.

LOOK, I WILL TELL YOU THAT WHEN MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN VISITS THE PENTAGON, THE YEAR MUST BE 1945 OR SO, BECAUSE IT WASN'T UNTIL 1948 WHEN THE SERVICE WAS DESEGREGATED BY EXECUTIVE ORDER.

SO IT'S LIKE THEY'RE TRYING TO ROLL BACK THE CLOCK.

ENLISTED, IT'S FINE TO BE DIVERSE, UNLESS YOU HAVE RAZOR BUMPS, IF YOU'RE NOT HEALED FROM YOUR RAZOR BUMPS, YOU GET KICKED OUT OF THE MILITARY.

GOING BACK TO A SERVICE BEFORE SEGREGATION SEEMS TO BE WHEN THE PENTAGON WAS GREAT AGAIN, EVEN THOUGH IT DIDN'T TECHNICALLY EXIST THEN.

THIS IS MATTER OF TRYING TO ROLL BACK THE CLOCK, TRYING TO REVERSE THE GAINS AND PROGRESS THAT HAS BEEN MADE OVER THE COUNTRY'S LIFE SPAN, AND DISHONORING THE SERVICE OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN LET GO AND THE SERVICE OF THOSE WHO DIED FOR THE COUNTRY IN HOPES OF NOT JUST SPREADING DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD, BUT ALSO MAKING DEMOCRACY ACCESSIBLE, FAIRNESS, EQUITY, OR EQUALITY, THESE THINGS ACCESSIBLE TO FOLKS HERE AT HOME.

>> NOW YOU MADE A REFERENCE TO RAZOR BUMPS.

I'M NOT SURE WHAT EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?

>> THERE IS SO MUCH TO THIS.

SO THE MILITARY DOES NOT ALLOW FACIAL HEY, AND HASN'T FOR DECADES.

YOU CAN GET A WAIVER BECAUSE FOLKS LIKE ME, IF YOU SHAVE EVERY SINGLE DAY, YOUR HAIR GROWS CURLY, IT GROWS BACK INTO YOUR SKIN, IT CREATES BUMPS.

AND WHEN YOU SHAVE THOSE BUMPS, YOU BLEED.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN TELL, BUT I'VE GOT SCARRING UNDER MY BEARD HERE BECAUSE OF ALL THE SHAVING I DID FOR 20 YEARS IN THE MILITARY.

THE REASON I HAVE A BEARD ISN'T TO BE COOL, I CAN'T SHAVE EVER DAY.

ALL THE MARKS AND ALOPECIA SPOTS AND ALL THESE THINGS THAT ARE HERE.

THIS IS WHAT HEGSETH CALLS BEARDOS.

HE GATHERED ALL OF THE ADMIRALS AND GENERALS AT QUANTICO LAST YEAR AND GAVE THEM A LECTURE ABOUT HOW FOLKS IN THE MILITARY ARE SUPPOSED TO LOOK.

BEARDS WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME FORWARD FROM THIS.

NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THEY RECENTLY CHANGED REGULATIONS SO THAT ONE, NO MORE BEARD KITS.

AND IF YOU CANNOT GET HEALED OF YOUR RAZOR BUMPS WITHIN A YEAR'S TIME, YOU'RE ELIGIBLE OF BEING KICKED OUT.

THIS AT A TIME WHEN THE NATION IS AT WAR.

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS IS THAT IT IS DISPROPORTIONATELY BLACK AND HISPANIC MEN THAT SUFFER FROM THESE BUMPS.

AND SO ONCE THESE ADMINISTRATIVE SEPARATIONS START HAPPENING, THESE WILL BE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY DISMISSED FROM MILITARY SERVICE SIMPLY FOR THE FACT -- >> THEIR HAIR GROWS DIFFERENTLY.

>> YEAH, THEIR HAIR IS THE WRONG TEXTURE.

>> THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE NO SECRET OF ITS HATRED FOR DIVERSITY PROGRAMS, WHATEVER THEY ARE AND HOWEVER THEY AROSE.

BUT HEGSETH HAS ARGUED THAT REAL TOXIC LEADERSHIP IS RUINING PEOPLE BASED ON IMMUTABLE CHARACTERISTICS OR QUOTAS INSTEAD OF BASED ON AMERICA.

WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> NOT AT ALL.

LET'S TAKE THE FITNESS STANDARD, FOR EXAMPLE.

HEGSETH SAID THE FITNESS STANDARD, HE WANTS ONE STANDARD, THE MALE STANDARD.

NO MORE MEN HAVE TO DO THIS AND WOMEN HAVE TO DO THAT.

THAT WAY WE GET AWAY FROM GENDER AND SEX AND HAVE ONE STANDARD.

IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHY IS IT IS MALE STANDARD BASED ON WHAT MEN CAN DO?

THAT'S NOT A GENDER NEUTRAL STANDARD.

IF THERE IS ONE STANDARD, CREATE THE STANDARD.

MAKE MEN AND WOMEN MEET IT, BUT DON'T SAY THE MALE STANDARD IS THE STANDARD.

DON'T SAY KICKING PEOPLE OUT OF THE MILITARY FOR RAZOR BUMPS OR FOR HAVING THE WRONG KIND OF HAIR OR THE WRONG HAIRSTYLES IS COLOR-BLIND, IS RACE NEUTRAL.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE KINDS OF HAIR AND THE WAY RAZOR BUMPS WORK AND THESE THINGS, IT WILL HAVE A DISPROPORTIONATE IMPACT ON THOSE PEOPLE OF COLOR.

SO IT'S VERY EASY TO SAY THE RIGHT WORDS SO THAT YOU SIDESTEP ANY ACCUSATIONS OF BEING RACIST OR DISCRIMINATORY, BUT AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE DISPARATE IMPACT THAT YOU HOPE TO HAVE, AND MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR, MORE WOMEN ARE REMOVED, ESPECIALLY FROM PLACES OF POWER, OF SENIORITY, AND OF CONSEQUENTIAL DECISION MAKING AT A GRAND GLOBAL SCALE EVEN, YOU KNOW, IT'S PRETTY CLEAR WHAT HE'S UP TO HERE.

>> WELL, IS THE QUESTION HERE WHETHER THESE STANDARDS ARE RELEVANT TO FORCE READINESS OR NOT.

I MEAN, THERE ARE SOME FIELDS IN WHICH BEARDS ARE NOT DESIRABLE BECAUSE THEY DO INTERFERE WITH YOUR ABILITY TO WEAR PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT, FOR EXAMPLE.

THERE ARE SOME JOBS IN WHICH ONE HAS TO ASSUME THAT UPPER BODY STRENGTH IS HIGHLY RELEVANT.

SO I GUESS THE QUESTION WOULD BE, ARE THESE STANDARDS THAT HE WANTS TO REIMPOSE RELEVANT TO FORCE READINESS OR NOT?

>> NO, THEY'RE NOT.

AND IT'S BECAUSE IT'S FIND TO ONE ONE STANDARD ACROSS THE BOARD, BUT IT ALSO IS FINE, AND PRACTICED IN THE MILITARY TO HAVE STANDARDS TAILORED TO THE JOB THAT YOU DO IN THE MILITARY.

SO YOU HAVE TO BE A CERTAIN HEIGHT TO BE A PILOT THAT MEANS YOU CAN'T BE SHORT THAN A CERTAIN HEIGHT, AND YOU CAN'T BE TOO TALL TO BE A PILOT BECAUSE YOU GOT TO FIT IN THE COCKPIT.

IF SOMEONE HAS A BEARD BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT A GAS MASK, THEY WORK IN ADMIN, WHY SHOULD THEY BE KICKED OUT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SHAVE EVERY DAY?

IF THEY SUDDENLY NEED TO PUT ON A GAS MASK OR THEY'RE GOING ON A DEPLOYMENT, BEARDS CAN BE SHAVED.

IT'S NOT LIKE IF YOU HAVE RAZOR BUMPS, YOU CAN NEVER SHAVE IN YOUR LIFE.

IT'S THE SORT OF THE FREQUENCY OF SHAVING AND THAT SORT OF THING THAT COMPLICATES THINGS.

THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS IF A JOB REQUIRES A SPECIFIC ABILITY IN TERMS OF HEIGHT OR IN TERMS OF STRENGTH OR IN TERMS OF ENDURANCE, THEN YOU TAILOR THE STANDARD TO THE JOB, BUT YOU DON'T ROLL OUT A STANDARD THAT BASICALLY FITS WHITE CHRISTIAN MEN WHO ARE IN SHAPE WITH NO BEARD BUMP, NO RAZOR BUMPS AND BEARDS.

YOU SAY OKAY, THAT'S A STANDARD FOEMPB.

EVERYONE HAS TO MEET THAT, AND TACK ON EXTRA THINGS DEPENDING ON THE JOB.

I THINK YOU MAKE THE STANDARD ONE THAT FITS THE COUNTRY, THAT DOES NOT HAVE A DISPARATE IMPACT ON PEOPLE OF COLOR OR BASED ON THEIR GENDER.

AND IF YOU HAVE TO INCREASE THE STANDARD BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE SPECIAL FORCE, A PILOT, COMBAT ENGINEER, WHATEVER IT IS, YOU DO.

SO BUT THAT ALLOWS YOU TO PRESERVE THE SERVICE, THE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO SERVE THE COUNTRY INSTEAD OF JUST MAKING CHOPS CROSS THE BOARD WITHOUT ANY SORT OF STRATEGIC OR TAILORED APPROACH TO SHAPING THE SERVICE.

>> I'M ALSO CURIOUS ABOUT HOW LONG IT TAKES TO GET PEOPLE TO THE LEVEL OF EXPERIENCE THAT ARE BEING SORT OF MUSTERED OUT.

>> RIGHT.

>> I'M THINKING ABOUT THESE ARE DECADES OF COMBAT EXPERIENCE.

>> YES.

>> THAT HAVE BEEN USHERED OUT THE DOOR.

>> YEAH.

IT'S INCALCULABLE.

THE YEARS YOU MAY BE ABLE TO CALCULATE.

THE EXPERIENCE LOST, NEVER.

THE PROFESSIONALISM LOST, NEVER.

IT TAKES 25 YEARS MINIMUM TO BUILD AN ADMIRAL OR A GENERAL, AND THAT'S JUST FOR THE FIRST STAR.

THE PEOPLE HE'S LET GOING ARE THREE AND FOUR STARS.

AFTER THAT FIRST STAR YOU GET BETWEEN THE 25 AND 30-YEAR MARK, ADD ANOTHER FOUR YEARS FOR EVERY ADDITIONAL STAR YOU GET.

MAYBE THREE.

AND MAYBE EVEN QUICKER DEPENDING ON THE ADMINISTRATION.

BUT A FOUR-STAR THAT'S BEEN AROUND FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS WITHOUT --ALMOST WITHOUT FAIL.

AND TO PUSH THOSE PEOPLE OUT THE DOOR, YOU CAN'T JUST WALK OUT AND HIRE A CEO, A FORTUNE 500 AND REPLACE THEM, YOU KNOW, PUT THEM IN THE PLACE OF A FOUR-STAR.

YOU HAVE TO BUILD THAT FOUR-STAR FROM SCRATCH.

AND I SAY FROM SCRATCH BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING PUT IN THOSE POSITIONS NOW ARE FOLKS THAT ARE --A LOT OF THEM, ESPECIALLY IN THE HIGHEST RANKS OF THE PENTAGON ARE FOLKS THAT ARE CLOSE TO THIS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, CLOSE TO THIS ADMINISTRATION, OR AT LEAST HASN'T RUFFLED THEIR FEATHERS ENOUGH.

IT'S NOT THAT YOU'RE NECESSARILY PROMOTING THE BEST IN THESE MOMENTS, YOU'RE PROMOTING THE FOLKS THAT FIT A PARTICULAR MOLD.

THE PEOPLE THEY'RE REPLACING THOSE KINDS OF FOLKS, THAT EXPERTISE IS HARD TO BUILD AND YOU CAN'T IMPORT IT.

YOU CAN'T SURGE EXPERIENCE.

YOU HAVE TO BUILD IT.

>> SO IT'S INTERESTING.

THE SECRETARY OF THE ARMY, DAN DRISCOLL RESIGNED DAYS AGO, REPORTEDLY AFTER WARNING PRESIDENT TRUMP DIRECTLY THAT SECRETARY HEGSETH WAS PUSHING OUT SOME OF THE ARMY'S MOST COMBAT-TESTED LEADERS AND UNDERMINING CONFIDENCE IN THE PROMOTION SYSTEM.

THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE TIMES, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE FAMILIAR WITH THIS MEETING.

AND I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT THAT, THE FACT THAT THE SECRETARY OF THE ARMY RESIGNED IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ACTIVE CONFLICT BECAUSE THE U. S. HAS BEEN AT WAR WITH IRAN, WHICH THE U. S. STARTED WITH ISRAEL FOR SIX MONTHS NOW.

>> RIGHT.

>> IN WHICH THE U. S. HAS SUSTAINED CASUALTIES.

AND I'M JUST WONDERING WHAT THAT RESIGNATION SAYS TO YOU.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE ANY VISIBILITY INTO IT BEYOND WHAT THE REPORTING HAS INDICATED, BUT WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU?

>> I DON'T KNOW THE FORMER ARMY SECRETARY.

I HAVEN'T DONE ANY REPORTING ON THIS.

BUT TWO THINGS STAND OUT TO ME.

NUMBER ONE, FOR HIM TO RESIGN, AS YOU SAID, IN A MOMENT WHERE THE NATION'S AT WAR, AT A MOMENT WHERE THE ARMY IS IN NEED OF TRANSFORMATION TO MEET THE CURRENT LEVEL OF THREATS BOTH GEOGRAPHICALLY BUT ALSO TECHNOLOGICALLY, FOR HIM TO WALK AWAY MEANS THAT HE FEELS LIKE HE WAS BEING TREATED AS SECRETARY IN NAME ONLY.

AND I'M TELLING YOU SERVICE SECRETARIES DO NOT TAKE THE JOB TO BE A FIGUREHEAD.

THEY TAKE THE JOB BECAUSE THEY CARE ABOUT THE COUNTRY, THE SERVICE, AND THEY WANT TO DO WHAT'S BEST FOR IT.

WHEN THAT AVENUE GETS BLOCKED, THOSE FOLKS DON'T STICK AROUND AND JUST DO THE CEREMONIES.

THEY WALK AWAY.

ANOTHER POINT, THOUGH, HEGSETH BARELY MADE IT TO THE PENTAGON.

IT WAS A 50-50 TIE, AND VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT VANCE WAS THE ONE THAT BROKE THE TIE.

VICE PRESIDENT VANCE WENT TO LAW SCHOOL WITH FORMER ARMY SECRETARY DRISCOLL.

AND FOR HEGSETH TO PUSH OUT DRISCOLL, WHO IS FRIENDS WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT, WHO MADE HEGSETH THE SECRETARY IN THE FIRST PLACE BY BREAKING THE TIE-BREAKING VOTE SHOWS YOU ONE THAT VANCE IS ON THE OUT.

HE CLEARLY IS NOT IN DECISION-MAKING CYCLE WHEN IT COMES TO THE PENTAGON.

AND TWO, THAT HEGSETH HAS TRUMP'S EAR.

THE REPORTING SUGGESTS THAT DRISCOL WENT TO TRUMP TO TELL HIM WHAT THE PROBLEMS WERE, TO TELL HIM HOW MANY FOLKS HAD BEEN FIRED, THAT WAS A SURPRISE TO TRUMP, TO TELL HIM HOW HIS RECOMMENDATIONS ARE BEING BLOCKED THAT WAS A SURPRISE TO TRUMP, ACCORDING TO THE REPORTING.

BUT DRISCOL WAS THE ONE WHO TURNED IN HIS RESIGNATION, AND HEGSETH IS STILL FLYING HIGH.

SO THAT ALSO SUGGESTS WHERE THE CHAIN OF COMMAND LIES AND WHO'S ON THE OUTSIDE AND WHOSE FINAL WORD MATTERS.

AND IT'S NOT THE FOLKS IN THE CHAIRS WITH THE EXPERIENCE AND TRYING TO DO A GOOD JOB.

IT'S NOT EVEN THE VICE PRESIDENT.

IT'S THESE TWO MEN, TRUMP AND HEGSETH THAT ARE UNILATERALLY RESHAPING THE MILITARY, WHO GETS TO SERVE, WHO GETS PROMOTED, AND UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS AND SORT OF WHAT THE REGULATIONS ARE THAT WILL ALLOW FOLKS TO SERVE IN THE FIRST PLACE, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR RANK CIRCUMSTANCES GALLUP SAYS THAT CONFIDENCE IN MILITARY NOW STANDS AT 61%.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> AFTER 9/11, 25 YEARS AGO, IT WAS CONSISTENT FULLY THE LY IN THE 70s AND 80s.

>> THAT'S RIGHTS.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT'S A PART OF THIS?

THAT'S A RESULT OF THIS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS THE COUNTRY EXPRESSING THEIR DISAPPROVAL OF THIS ADMINISTRATION AND THIS PENTAGON.

NOT OF SERVICE MEMBERS.

THE COUNTRY STILL HOLDS A VERY HIGH OPINION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SERVING AND VETERANS, BUT THEIR OPINION OF THE MILITARY IS WHAT'S LAGGING.

IF YOU WOULD HAVE TOLD ME 25 YEARS AGO, AND I HAD JUST RETURNED FROM MY SECOND DEPLOYMENT FIVE MONTHS BEFORE --FOUR MONTHS BEFORE 9/11 HAPPENED, IF YOU TOLD ME THEN THAT ALL OF THE THANK YOUS AND THE, YOU KNOW, THE EARLY BOARDING, ALL THE THINGS THAT USED TO HAPPEN FOR U. S. MILITARY MEMBERS IN THOSE YEARS WOULD BE GONE.

JUST BARELY OVER HALF THE COUNTRY WOULD HAVE A FAVORABLE OPINION OF THE MILITARY, THE FIRST THING I WOULD ASK YOU WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE, WHAT DID THEY DO TO BREAK IT?

BECAUSE I DO NOT BELIEVE SERVICE MEMBERS WOULD ACT UNETHICALLY AT SUCH A LARGE NUMBER THAT IT WOULD CAUSE THE OPINIONS TO LAG.

I DON'T BELIEVE VETERANS WOULD DO THE SAME.

IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A POLITICAL RATIONALE, REASONING FOR THE DROP, AND IT IS.

SO THIS IS A REFLECTION OF HOW THE COUNTRY FEELS ABOUT HOW THE PENTAGON IS BEING RUN.

I TELL YOU, IT'S NOT GOING AWAY ANY TIME SOON AND IT WILL HAVE RAMIFICATIONS FOR THE MIDTERMS THAT ARE UPCOMING AND MAYBE FOR WHO IS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE OVER THE NEXT SIX TO 12 MONTHS.

>> TED JOHNSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

ALWAYS GOOD TO BE HERE.

> >> AND FINALLY, ONE OF THE BEST- SELLING MUSICIANS OF ALL TIME IS STEPPING BACK INTO THE SPOTLIGHT.

AFTER SIX YEARS AWAY, CELINE DION HAS RETURNED TO THE STAGE.

A BATTLE WITH RARE HEALTH ISSUES HAS PUT HER CAREER ON PAUSE, BUT NOW SHE IS MAKING QUITE THE COMEBACK, TAKING OVER PARIS WITH A SOLD OUT RESIDENCY.

SHE'LL BE PERFORMING A SERIES OF 26 CONCERTS OVER THE COMING MONTHS, CAPTIVATING AUDIENCES FROM AROUND THE GLOBE WHO HAVE COME TO SEE HER SHINE.

SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT MELISSA BELL IS IN THE FRENCH CAPITAL WHERE THE QUEEN OF POWER BALLAD SERIES MAKING HER MARK ONCE AGAIN.

>> CELINE DION FEVER HAS HIT PARIS HARD.

AHEAD OF THE CANADIAN SUPERSTAR'S FIRST CONCERT IN SIX YEARS, A GIANT KARAOKE WAS ORGANIZED OVER THE WEEKEND, ONE OF THE SONGS THAT THE FRENCH KNOW BY HEART.

?

?

>> FOR ME IT'S LIKE ALL WHAT PARIS IS ABOUT.

JUST GATHERING PEOPLE IN OPEN SPACES AND HAVING A MOMENT TOGETHER, SINGING TOGETHER.

>> THE HOTEL THAT WILL SERVE AS CELINE'S BASE THROUGHOUT THEIR '26 RESIDENCY HAS TURNED INTO A PLACE OF DAILY WORSHIP FOR HER FANS.

>> Translator: IT'S NOT EVERY DAY THAT WE GET TO SEE CELINE DION UP CLOSE LIKE THIS, SO THIS IS AMAZING.

>> WITH MORE THAN 200 MILLION RECORDS SOLD, CELINE DION IS THE BIGGEST SELLING CANADIAN ARTIST OF ALL TIMES AND IN THE FRENCH- SPEAKING WORLD AN ICON.

BUT A RARE NEUROLOGICAL DISORDER HAD FORCED HER TO CANCEL HER LAST TOUR.

WHICH IS WHY HER FIRST PERFORMANCE HERE ON SATURDAY NIGHT WAS SO KEENLY AWAITED.

I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO BE INSIDE, AND THE EMOTION WAS UNBELIEVABLE.

IT WAS PERFORMANCE FULL OF ENERGY WITH THAT TREMENDOUS VOICE OF HERS.

BUT SHE COULD FEEL AT THE END OF HER FIRST SONG THE CROWD, AND SHE STARTED CRYING, REALLY STRUGGLING FOR A MOMENT TO REGAIN HER COMPOSURE.

FOR THAT MOMENT THERE REALLY WASN'T A DRY EYE IN THE HOUSE.

IT'S EXPECTED THAT OVERALL, CELINE FEVER COULD BRING OVER A BILLION DOLLARS OF REVENUE TO THE FRENCH ECONOMY.

NINE MILLION FANS JOINED A LOTTERY FOR ACCESS TO TICKETS AND ALL HER SHOWS WERE SOLD OUT IN A MERIT OF HOURS.

AND FOR THOSE FANS WHO DIDN'T GET A TICKET, THERE ARE STILL THOSE DAILY HOPES OUTSIDE HER HOTEL FOR A GLIMPSE, A SMILE, AND EVEN A KISS FROM THE STAR WHO'S FINALLY RETURNED TO THEM.

?

?

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & CO. "

ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.

?

?

> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.