♪ GAUTAM: I AM GAUTAM MAKUNDA.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," A NEW SET OF CLOSURES ARE GOING INTO EFFECT ON PARTS OF THE GREEN AND ORANGE LINES AS SNOW ZONES CONTINUED TO TAKE THEIR TOLL WHEN WILL THE TWO GET IT TOGETHER?

I WILL TALK TO THE HEAD OF THE MBTA ADVISORY BOARD.

PLUS, WHEN IT COMES TO THE HIGHEST POSITIONS IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, HOW OLD IS TOO OLD, AND WHEN IS IT TIME TO STEP IN?

WE WILL DISCUSS, AHEAD.

♪ IT IS A WARNING THAT GOES OUT ALMOST EVERY WEEKEND, BEWARE OF MBTA CLOSURES.

FOR THE NEXT OF THE GREEN LINE IS SET TO CLOSE TO ALLOW FOR CRITICAL REPAIRS TO A BRIDGE THAT RUNS OVER THE TRACKS.

THE GREEN LINE WILL ALSO SHUTDOWN BETWEEN NORTH STATION AND GOVERNMENT CENTER, AND THE ORANGE LINE WILL SKIP OVER HAYMARKET STATION IN BOTH DIRECTIONS WHILE CREWS WORKED TO DEMOLISH THE GARAGE.

UNLIKE PAST CLOSURES, THE MBTA IS NOT PROVIDING SHUTTLE BUSES FILLING THE GAPS.

INSTEAD, IT IS URGING RIDERS TO MAKE USE OF IT ALREADY ESTABLISHED BUS LINES, OR TO WALK BETWEEN STATIONS TO DISCUSS, I AM JOINED BY BRIAN KANE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE MBTA ADVISORY BOARD.

BRIAN: THANKS FOR JOINING US.

GAUTAM: MY LIFE IS TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON THE T AND THE LAST TIME I WORKED TO CAROLYN UP TO CAMBRIDGE, I SAW THAT THE NEXT TRAIN WAS BECOMING AN 18 MINUTES AND THE NEXT TRAIN AFTER THAT IN 19 MINUTES.

YOU CAN IMAGINE HOW FRUSTRATING THAT PIECE OF INFORMATION WAS.

WHAT IS GOING ON?

BRIAN: I HAVE BEEN THERE MYSELF.

WE ARE EXPERIENCING REDLINED TRAINS THAT WERE BUILT IN 1960 NINE BEFORE PEOPLE WORKED ON THE MOON, STILL IN SERVICE 20 YEARS AFTER THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO BE REMOVED FROM SERVICE, IN COMBINATION WITH A LACK OF PEOPLE THAT WANT TO DRIVE THOSE TRAINS, AND INEXPERIENCED PEOPLE DRIVING THOSE TRAINS LEADS TO THAT BEING SO LONG.

IT IS RIDICULOUS THAT WE IN THE 21ST CENTURY METROPOLITAN WEALTHY AREA LIKE BOSTON HAVE TO EXPERIENCE A 20 MINUTE HEADWAYS ON A SUBWAY LINE LIKE THE RED LINE.

GAUTAM: I USED TO LIVE IN CHINA AND ON CHINESE TRAINS, THEY WILL ACTUALLY SHOW YOU THE LACK OF VIBRATION IS SO MUCH THAT YOU COULD PUT A COIN ON ITS END FOR THE ENTIRE RIDE, AND IT WILL NEVER FALL OFF.

THAT'’S NEXT QUITE WHERE WE ARE WITH THE MBTA.

BRIAN: IT IS NOT.

GAUTAM: WHEN CAN WE EXPECT THINGS TO GET BACK TO SOMETHING THAT LOOKS NORMAL?

BRIAN: I AM A LITTLE BIT OF A PESSIMIST ON THIS, I THINK IT WILL BE THREE OR FOUR YEARS.

.

WE HAVE HAD 30 YEARS DISINVESTMENT IN THE SYSTEM THAT HAS ONLY STARTED TO GET REMEDIED IN THE LAST TWO OR THREE.

UNFORTUNATELY, YOU CAN'’T FIX 30 YEARS OF DISINVESTMENT IN 30 DAYS, OR EVEN 30 MONTHS, IT WILL BE MORE LIKE 48 MONTHS.

GAUTAM: AND IT'’S NOT JUST A QUESTION OF DELAYS, RIGHT, ACCORDING TO THE REPORT FROM SEPTEMBER 14 EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS INTERVENED AND SAID THE MBTA MUST NOTIFY IT OF ALL MISSES THAT OCCUR WITHIN TWO HOURS.

IT HAS TO PROVIDE A DETAILED EXPLANATION IN THE REPORTING AND ACTIONS THEY WILL TAKE TO PREVENT IN THE FUTURE.

THUS NOT EVEN ABOUT UNDERINVESTMENT, SOMETHING ELSE IS GOING ON?

BRIAN: YOU ARE SEEING A LACK OF MANAGERIAL EXPERIENCE.

FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS, SINCE ABOUT 2001, 2000, THE T HAS OPERATED UNDER AN AUSTERITY MODEL.

THE STATE GOVERNMENTS AND MULTIPLE GOVERNORS AND LEGISLATORS HAVE SAID TO THEM, " YOU NEED TO CUT BACK ON WHAT YOU ARE SPENDING.

SPEND LESS, SPEND LESS, SPEND LESS."

THIS LEGISLATURE ENCOURAGE THEM TO RAISE FARES, MONEY FROM ADVERTISING AND PARKING.

IN RESPONSE, THE T CUT ITS WORKFORCE DRAMATICALLY.

WHEN I LEFT THE T IN 2018, THERE WERE 5800 EMPLOYEES.

KNOW THEY ARE TRYING TO GET BACK TO 7000.

YOU CAN EMERGE AND WE WERE ALL DOING TWO OR THREE DIFFERENT THINGS.

IN 2017, THEY HAD A RETIREMENT INCENTIVE PROGRAM WHERE LOTS OF THE MOST EXPERIENCED PEOPLE JUST WALKED OUT THE DOOR BECAUSE THEY WERE ENCOURAGED TO, THOSE POSITIONS WERE BACKFILLED PEOPLE THAT MADE LESS MONEY YOU HAD LESS EXPERIENCE.

SO WE ARE SEEING THE RESULTS OF THOSE TWO TWIN THINGS DESIGNED TO STARVE THE T NOT ONLY OF RESOURCES, BUT OF THE BRAINS NEEDED TO OPERATE.

GAUTAM: SO THAT IS ONE OF THE ROOT CAUSES THAT GOES BACK A LONG TIME, AND I MEAN, THINK WE ALL WANT TO KNOW WHY IT TOOK THIS LONG FOR THE INVESTMENT TO COME IN AND FIX IT.

BUT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, WHEN THEY LOOK AT THIS, END OF THE DAY, I WILL TAKEN UBER, IT'’S NOT A BIG DEAL FOR ME, BUT THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE FOR WHOM IF THEY CAN'’T OPERATE THE T, IT'’S A HUGE PROBLEM.

SO WHAT IS THE T DOING TO HELP THOSE PEOPLE?

BRIAN: THAT HE HAS A NUMBER OF PROGRAMS.

THEY ARE TRYING TO FIX THE SYSTEM AND MAKE IT SAFER, RELIABLE AND FREQUENT FOR EVERYBODY, AND THAT IS WHAT WE NEED TO HAVE HAPPEN HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

SPECIFICALLY FOR FOLKS THAT ARE TRANSIT-DEPENDENT, THERE IS A NUMBER OF PROGRAMS TO MAKE THE SYSTEM CHEAPER, UNFORTUNATELY, THE FREQUENCY WILL SUFFER LIKE WE ALL ARE SUFFERING.

.

THERE IS NO END IN SIGHT FOR TWO OR THREE YEARS, UNFORTUNATELY.

GAUTAM:.

GAUTAM: DOES THE MBTA NEED MORE INVESTMENT FROM THE STATE IN ORDER TO GET THIS FIXED?

BRIAN: THEY ARE LOOKING AT ABOUT A $250 MILLION DEFICIT IN THE OPERATING BUDGET IN FISCAL YEAR 25, SO I WOULD ARGUE THAT YES, THEY HAVE NOT HAD A LAST BUDGET SINCE 2001.

THERE HAVE BEEN YEARS THROUGH SOME SMOKE AND ENGINEERING, WHAT ONE BOARD CHAIRMAN CALLED "FISCAL ENGINEERING," THEY HAVE HAD BALANCED BUDGETS, BUT IT IS NOT REAL.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY ARE OVERSTRETCHING AT THE VERY END TO MAKE IT.

THEY DON'’T HAVE ENOUGH INVESTMENT.

PEOPLE, I UNDERSTAND, ARE NOT JUMPING UP AND DOWN TO GIVE THE T MONEY RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THEY HAVE HAD TERRIBLE EXPERIENCES.

I WOULD ARGUE, HOWEVER, WE HAVE TRIED AUSTERITY FOR ALMOST 20 YEARS, 30 YEARS.

IT HASN'’T WORKED.

MAYBE WE SHOULD TRY SOMETHING ELSE.

GAUTAM: IT'’S A CRITICAL PART OF LIFE, WHAT MAKES BOSTON SUCH A GOOD CITY TO, LIVE AND SO WHEN IT IS NOT WORKING, IT'’S A PROBLEM.

BUT THE CRITICAL ISSUE IS COMMUNICATION AGAIN, HAD NO ANTICIPATION THAT I WOULD GO FROM BEING ABLE TO GET ANYWHERE IN THE CITY IN 15 MINUTES, TO NOT BEING ABLE TO GET MY STATION IN 15 MINUTES.

BRIAN: THEY ARE SO BAD AT TELLING THEIR OWN STORY AND IT IS INFURIATING.

ESPECIALLY FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME THAT CARE SO MUCH ABOUT IT AND WANT TO SEE IT DO WELL.

I DON'’T KNOW WHY THEY ARE SO BAD AT COMMUNICATING.

THEY KEEP SAYING THEY'’RE GOING TO DO BETTER.

IT IS CLEAR THAT THE RATING HAS TO END AND THEY NEED TO GET BETTER AT TELLING US WHAT IS GOING ON.

THE T NEEDS TO BE HONEST NOT JUST WITH REPORTERS AND THOSE OF US IN THE MEDIA, BUT EVERYONE.

ALL OF US JUST WANT THEM TO BE HONEST SO WE BELIEVE WE CAN TRUST THEM, NOT JUST TO COMMUNICATE WELL, BUT TO RUN A SAFE SYSTEM.

IF WE CAN'’T TRUST WHAT THEY ARE TELLING US, HOW CAN WE TRUST THE SYSTEM IS SAFE?

GAUTAM: A FAILURE IN HONESTY IS NOT JUST -- THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM OF UNDERINVESTMENT.

BRIAN: YES.

GAUTAM: SO WHERE IS A FAILURE IN HONESTY COMING FROM AND WHAT WERE THE CONSEQUENCES BEFORE IT HAPPENING AND CONTINUING?

BRIAN: THE FAILURE IN HONESTY THAT WE SAW PRIOR TO THE START OF THIS YEAR HAD TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THE T BECAME VERY POLITICIZED.

PEOPLE THAT WERE WORKING, THERE FOLKS THAT I TALK TO A LOT, HAD A FEELING THEY HAD TO DO WHAT WAS BEST FOR THE GOVERNOR, NOT WHAT WAS BEST FOR THE SYSTEM AND THE RIDERS.

AND OFTEN TIMES WHAT IS BEST FOR THE POLITICIANS IS NOT WHAT IS BEST FOR US.

SHUTTING DOWN ANY PART OF THE T FOR LONG PERIODS OF TIME IS CRITICALLY UNPOPULAR, AND THAT IS THE REASON WHY IT HAS NOT HAPPENED VERY OFTEN IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

BUT WE ARE SEEING NEW GENERAL MANAGER.

THERE IS A NEW BOARD IN PLACE THAT WILL BE REPORTING THIS MORE.

HOWEVER, IT DOES HAVE TO GET A LOT BETTER.

GAUTAM: EVERYBODY WANTS IT TO GET BETTER.

I WILL JUST FOCUS IN ON WHAT YOU SAID, FAILURES IN HONESTY?

THEY ARE SEPARATE FROM FAILURES IN MANAGEMENT.

BRIAN: ABSOLUTELY.

GAUTAM: I AM A PROFESSOR OF MANAGEMENT, FAILURE IN HONESTY IS WHEN YOU HAVE LOST EVERY CONNECTION WITH YOUR STAKEHOLDERS.

ARE THERE GOING TO BE CONSEQUENCES FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE SAID THINGS AND MADE STATEMENTS THAT TURNED OUT NOT TO BE TRUE?

BRIAN: IT APPEARS THERE ISN'’T.

THERE AN HASN'’T BEEN IN THE LAST SIX OR SEVEN MONTHS.

YOU ARE ALSO SEEING THE CONSEQUENCES TO THE SYSTEM AS A WHOLE.

PEOPLE ARE VOTING WITH THEIR FEET.

THEY ARE NOT TAKING THE SYSTEM LIKE THEY USED TO, LIKE WE NEED THEM TO IN THIS REGION, FOR ITS ECONOMY AND ITS ECOLOGY.

GAUTAM: YOU CAN'’T TAKE THE SYSTEM IF YOU CAN'’T RELY ON IT.

IT'’S NOT AN OPTION.

BRIAN: CORRECT.

GAUTAM:.

GAUTAM: YOU ARE DESCRIBING A SYSTEM ON THE EDGE OF A DEATH SPIRAL.

IF PEOPLE STOP TAKING IT, IT IS ONE OF ITS MAJOR SOURCES OF REVENUE.

IF THAT IS A CONCERN, THE PEOPLE NEED TO ADDRESS IT HEAD-ON.

I DON'’T SEE THAT HAPPENING.

BRIAN: BRIAN: I DON'’T THINK WE'’RE IN A DEATH SPIRAL JUST YET, BUT WE ARE GETTING DANGEROUSLY CLOSE.

THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE PEOPLE OF COSTON AND THE INNER CORE OF MASSACHUSETTS WHERE WE JUST LOVE THE T. LIKE THE RED SOX, EVEN WHEN THEY STINK, WE LOVE IT.

THAT IS WHAT IS HELPING IT BE SUSTAINED.

THERE IS ONLY SO LONG THOUGH SO THAT THE FOLKS IN CHARGE CAN RELY ON THAT BECAUSE OUR PATIENT IS GETTING VERY THIN.

GAUTAM: VERY MUCH SO.

THEO EPSTEIN IS NOT THERE TO WRITE TO THE RESCUE FOR THE T. BRIAN: HE IS AVAILABLE MAY BE.

[LAUGHTER] GAUTAM: WHAT ARE THE CONCRETE STEPS YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEIR TEAM MAKE IN THE NEXT WEEK, MONTH, THE NEXT YEAR TO REVOLVE NOT JUST THE DELAYS, BUT THE PROBLEM OF TRUST THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT?

BRIAN: HIRING.

RADICAL HONESTY.

THAT IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN THE NEXT MONTH.

BUT I THINK WE ARE STARTING TO SEE IT.

IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE GENERAL MANAGER HAS SAID ABOUT THE UPCOMING SHUTDOWNS YOU REFERENCED, YOU TALKED ABOUT WHY THEY HAVE TO DO IT, HOW LONG IT'’S GOING TO TAKE IN WHAT THEY EXPECT TO HAVE DONE.

YOU CAN SAY, YES, YOU HAVE HEARD THAT BEFORE.

BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE PAST SHUTDOWNS HE HAS OVERSEEN.

THERE WAS A SMALL ONE ON THE GREEN LINE NEAR PACKARDS CORNER IN BOSTON, THEY SAID THEY WOULD SHUT IT DOWN FOR 14 DAYS.

THEY TOOK 14 DAYS AND WHEN IT WAS DONE, IT WORKED.

SO THERE IS HOPE.

I BELIEVE THAT THIS LEADERSHIP IN PLACE, ESPECIALLY WITH THE NEW ACTING SECRETARY, THEY HAVE THE RIGHT PEOPLE IN PLACE, THE RIGHT MANAGERS IN PLACE.

PHIL HAS BROUGHT IN A LOT OF EXPERTS FROM NEW YORK AND OTHER PLACES.

THERE IS HOPE.

YOU ASKED ME WHAT I WOULD DO IN THE NEXT WEEK?

RADICAL HONESTY.

IN THE NEXT MONTH, I WOULD CONTINUE THE RADICAL HONESTY, TO GET UP TO BEACON HILL AND LOBBY FOR MORE MONEY SO WE DON'’T HAVE TO DO ADDITIONAL SHUTDOWNS IN THE FUTURE.

IN THE NEXT YEAR?

PRAY THAT THESE NEW CARS START WORKING PROPERLY.

GAUTAM: ARE THERE ESTIMATES OF THE ECONOMIC COST TO THE CITY OF THESE T PROBLEMS?

BRIAN: IN THE BILLIONS, WOULD IMAGINE.

GAUTAM: IF THEY ARE SO HIGH, ARE THERE ANY OTHER SOURCES OF REVENUE, NEW ADVERTISING -- THEY HAVE BEEN PUSHED TO DO THAT MUCH, BUT YOU WOULD THINK AND HOPE THAT THE SIMPLE FACT THAT MASSIVE UNDERINVESTMENT IS COSTING MASSACHUSETTS ENORMOUSLY WOULD BE PUSHING AND PUTTING PRESSURE.

ARE YOU TAKING STEPS TO PRESSURE THE GOVERNMENT?

BRIAN: ABSOLUTELY, BUT THE LEGISLATURE IS NOT INTERESTED IN HAVING THESE REVENUE DISCUSSIONS RIGHT NOW.

THEY ARE IN A WAIT-AND-SEE APPROACH, WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN FOR MANY YEARS.

UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE BEEN WAITING AND SEEING FOR A VERY LONG TIME, AND I THINK THE TIME HAS COME.

I EXPECTED A BIG REVENUE PACKAGE IN THIS LEGISLATIVE SESSION.

IT HASN'’T HAPPENED YET.

I AM HOPING IT COMES IN JANUARY, BUT I TALK TO PEOPLE ON BEACON HILL EVERYDAY AND I BEGGED THEM TO FIX THE T. WE WILL SEE.

GAUTAM: IF IT DOESN'’T COME, HOW BAD WILL THINGS GET?

BRIAN: A 250 REGULAR DEFICIT IN 2025 IS UNSOLVABLE INTERNALLY.

THE AMOUNT OF SERVICE CUTS THAT THE T WOULD HAVE TO MAKE WOULD PUT THEM IN A DEATH SPIRAL.

IT'’S ALMOST UNSOLVABLE WITH THE TOOLS THE T HAS RIGHT NOW.

GAUTAM: YOUR FUNDAMENTAL MESSAGE IS, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THERE IS NO LEVEL OF GOOD MANAGEMENT THAT WILL MAKE UP FOR THAT SHORTFALL?

BRIAN: THE T CAN CERTAINLY DO BETTER.

THEY ARE NOT THE MOST EFFICIENT ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD.

THEY CAN DO BETTER.

BUT THERE ARE BRIGHT THINGS IN THE HORIZON.

5% INCREASE IN APPLICANTS.

THEY ARE STARTING TO GET PEOPLE IN THAT WANT TO DO THE WORK.

THEY HAVE THE RIGHT LEADERSHIP IN PLACE.

THEY WILL COME AT SOME POINT NEED MONEY TO PAY FOR ALL THESE NEW PEOPLE, AND TO PAY FOR THE MAINTENANCE WE ALL DESPERATELY NEED.

GAUTAM: BRIAN KANE, THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY.

BRIAN: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

GAUTAM: BY THIS TIME NEXT YEAR, THERE ARE TWO PROJECTED FRONTRUNNERS IN THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WILL BE 78 YEARS OLD AND 81 YEARS OLD.

IS THAT TOO OLD FOR THE MOST POWERFUL POSITION IN THE WORLD?

ACCORDING TO A QUINNIPIAC UNIVERSITY POLL PUBLISHED LAST WEEK 61% OF VOTERS SUPPORT AN AGE LIMIT TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

IN THE SAME POLL 68% SAID JOE BIDEN WAS TOO OLD FOR A SECOND TERM, AND 53% SAID THE SAME FOR DONALD TRUMP.

THEN, THERE IS CONGRESS, WERE TOP LEADERS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE EYE HAVE PROMPTED CONCERNS ABOUT AGE AND ABILITY IN RECENT MONTHS.

IS IT TIME FOR A NEW GENERATION OF POLITICIANS TO STEP UP?

AND WILL THE BABY BOOMERS AND SILENT GENERATION EVEN HAPPEN?

I AM JOINED BY MICHAEL AS TO, FORMER ASSOCIATE COUNSEL TO PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN WHO DRAFTED THE FIRST OPERATIONS PLAN FOR THE 25TH AMENDMENT, AND JESSE MERMELL, THE PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER OF DEWIT IMPACT GROUP.

MIKE, TELL AS HELL THE 25TH AMENDMENT WORKS.

MICHAEL: IT'’S VERY COMPLICATED.

PROBABLY UNNECESSARILY SO.

BUT THE SHORTHAND IS THAT IF THE VICE PRESIDENT AND -- >> MEANING BOTH, AND THE MAJORITY OF THE CABINET CONCLUDE THAT THE PRESIDENT IS MEDICALLY UNFIT FOR OFFICE, THEY CAN MAKE A DETERMINATION THAT GOES TO CONGRESS, THE PRESIDENT HAS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME TO TRY TO OBJECT, IT GOES BACK-AND-FORTH, BUT ESSENTIALLY IT PUTS UP THE POSSIBILITY THAT A TWO-THIRDS VOTE IN BOTH HOUSES CAN MEAN THAT THE PRESIDENT IS REMOVED, AT LEAST ON A TEMPORARY BASIS.

AND THE VICE PRESIDENT BECOMES THE ACTING PRESIDENT, NOT THE PRESIDENT.

THAT'’S THE SHORTHAND OF HOW IT WORKS.

GAUTAM: SO, GIVEN THIS LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY, JESSE, IS IT EVEN SEEMED POSSIBLE THAT SOMEONE WERE TO VOTE FOR THE 25TH AMENDMENT, NO MATTER HOW OBVIOUS THE HANDICAP FOR THE PRESIDENT?

JESSE: I THINK IT IS NECESSARY THAT IT IS COMPLICATED.

THAT'’S NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO BE EASY, THAT SOMEONE CAN SNAP THEIR FINGERS AND REMOVE THE PRESIDENT.

JUST BECAUSE FOLKS MIGHT THINK THAT JOE BIDEN IS OLDER THAN THEY WOULD LIKE THE PRESIDENT TO BE, DOESN'’T MEAN WE'’RE IN A POSITION WHERE WE HAVE TO BE DISCUSSING THE 25TH AMENDMENT.

THAT IS WELL BEYOND WHERE WE ARE.

GAUTAM: SETTING ASIDE THE JOE BIDEN QUESTION, WE HAVE HAD THIS ISSUE IN THE PAST WITH RONALD REAGAN AND ALZHEIMER'’S TOWARDS THE END OF THE SECOND TERM.

AND IT GOES BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

GEORGE WASHINGTON HAD MEMORY ISSUES TOWARDS THE END OF THE SECOND TERM AS WELL.

THESE ARE ISSUES WE HAVE DEALT WITH BEFORE BUT MAYBE NOT SUCCESSFULLY.

SO, IS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY, EVEN SETTING JOE BIDEN ASIDE, WE KNOW THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT THE INVOCATION OF THE 25TH AMENDMENT DURING THE END OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

AND THEY DID NOT HAPPEN.

IF THERE WAS A MORE CLEAR CASE THAN THE VIOLENT INSURGENCY AGAINST THE CAPITOL, I AM NOT SURE WHAT IT COULD BE.

SO IS THIS JUST A DEAD LETTER?

MICHAEL: IN THE CASE OF TRUMP, THE TIME PERIOD WAS VERY SHORT AND THESE WERE DIFFICULT AND UNPRECEDENTED CONVERSATIONS, SO I WOULD BE CAREFUL ABOUT DRAWING A CONCLUSION ABOUT THAT.

YOU MAY HAVE JUST SIMPLY RUN OUT OF TIME.

IT IS A TIME PERIOD WHERE CABINET PEOPLE WERE LEAVING.

THERE WAS SOME LACK OF CLARITY IN THE AMENDMENT OF WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DON'’T HAVE A CONFIRMED CABINET OFFICIAL, IF YOU HAVE AN ACTING OFFICIAL -- ALL KINDS OF COMPLEXITIES WHICH, TO GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE, THE CLINTON WHITE HOUSE WROTE A VERY GOOD LEGAL DOCUMENT ABOUT THOSE AND I AM HOPING THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, ATTORNEY GENERAL HAVE ACCESS NOT ONLY TO MY OPERATIONS PLAN, BUT THE CLINTON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL DOCUMENT WHICH IS REALLY, REALLY GOOD.

I THINK IF IT COMES TO THE POINT WHERE THERE ARE SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS OF THE 25TH AMENDMENT, IF YOU ARE RELYING ON STANDARDS THAT HAVE BEEN DONE IN THE PAST WITH NO CONNECTION TO THE POLITICS OF TODAY, I THINK IT WILL MAKE IT MORE CREDIBLE, LESS CONTROVERSIAL.

IT WILL DO LESS DAMAGE TO OUR DEMOCRACY IF THERE ARE SOME PRECEDENTS LIKE THAT THAT THEY CAN RELY ON.

GAUTAM: SETTING ASIDE THE THEORETICAL DISCUSSION OF THE LAWS AROUND THE 25TH SEEMS LIKE THE BIGGEST VERTICAL PROBLEM JOE BIDEN HAS RIGHT NOW NOW IS A LOT OF AMERICANS HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT HIS AGE.

WHAT IS THE WHITE HOUSE THINKING AND PLANNING ON SAYING ABOUT THAT JESSE: WELL, THE WHITE HOUSE HAS NOT SHARED THEIR THINKING BUT TELL YOU WHAT I THINK THEY NEED TO DO, THEY NEED TO GET JOE BIDEN OUT IN THE COUNTRY, VISIBLE, SHOWING HOW ACTIVE AND STRONG AND THOUGHTFUL HE IS.

TALKING ABOUT THE THINGS THAT HE HAS DONE OVER THE PAST -- BY THE TIME WE ARE AT ELECTION TIME, FOUR YEARS.

AND THE PLANS HE HAS FOR THE FUTURE.

THE GREAT NEWS IS HE HAS AN INCREDIBLY STRONG RECORD OF THINGS THAT APPEAL TO MOST VOTERS, RIGHT, PRESCRIPTION DRUG REFORM, INFRASTRUCTURE BUILDING, JUST THIS PAST WEEK, TAKING ACTION ABOUT OIL AND GAS LEASES IN ALASKA.

HE HAS A VERY, VERY STRONG RECORD.

.

I DON'’T KNOW THAT THAT IS EFFECTIVELY BEING COMMUNICATED TO VOTERS RIGHT NOW, BUT HIM OUT THERE, SHOWING HOW ACTIVE AND STRONG HE IS HOW, ON TOP OF THINGS HE IS AND HOW MUCH HE HAS ALREADY ACCOMPLISHED, THAT IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS/THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY'’S TRADITIONAL POSTURE OF PANIC IS SETTING IN RIGHT NOW AS WE LOOK AT POLLING DATA.

JESSE: IT IS ONE OF OUR STRENGTHS.

GAUTAM: WE ARE WELL INTO THE DEPTHS AT THIS POINT.

BUT THIS IS NOT JUST A DEMOCRATIC ISSUE, BUT MITCH MCCONNELL JUST HAD TWO INCIDENTS OF UNKNOWN CAUSE ON CAMERA.

AND I WILL NOTE, DONALD TRUMP JUST GAVE A SPEECH IN WHICH HE DECLARED HIS FEARS THAT BARACK OBAMA WOULD LEAD US INTO WORLD WAR II.

THE BIG QUESTION IS MORE OF A BIPARTISAN ISSUE.

I WONDER IF WE CAN ASK WHAT IS GOING ON IN AMERICAN POLITICS THAT WE SEEM TO BE BECOMING SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE A JERED TALKER SEE -- JERED TALKER -- WE ARE BECOMING MORE OF A GERONTOCRACY?

MICHAEL: MY WIFE AND I BOTH WORKED IN THE SENATE IN COLLEGE.

I WORKED IN THE SIDE FOR A REPUBLICAN AND SHE WORKED IN THE SITE FOR DEMOCRAT.

IT WAS MUCH MORE CIVIL, PRODUCTIVE PATIENT.

IT WAS VERY TOUGH TO SEE IN CAULKING AND SEGREGATIONISTS WITH POSITIONS OF POWER IN THE MAJOR SENATE COMMITTEES.

.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS NOBODY KNEW.

WE DIDN'’T HAVE SOCIAL MEDIA.

WE HAD FOUR TELEVISION NETWORKS.

AND THERE WAS SORT OF A SOCIAL COMPACT THAT YOU DIDN'’T COVER THAT KIND OF THING.

AND WHAT HAS CHANGED NOW IS THAT THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS TO PHYSICALLY SEE WHAT IS GOING ON.

AND WHAT IS HURTING THE PRESIDENT NOW IS, IT'’S NOT THE PARTISAN SHOTS.

BECAUSE I THINK AMERICANS HAVE KIND OF TURNED OFF THE PARTISAN SHOTS FROM THE OTHER SIDE AND THEY ARE NOT PAYING MUCH ATTENTION.

THE VIDEOS ARE SPEAKING FOR THEMSELVES AND SOME OF THE VIDEOS ARE VERY DISTURBING OF WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THE PRESIDENCY CAPACITY.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE WATCHING IT CLOSELY.

AS FAR AS I KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN NO MAJOR PROBLEM THAT HAS COME FROM ANY OF THESE THINGS, BUT PEOPLE ARE WORRIED AND I THINK THEY ARE RIGHT TO BE CONCERNED.

JESSE: I WOULD DISAGREE.

I LOOK AT THOSE VIDEOS -- HE TRIPPED COMING OFF A STAGE THREE THREE MONTHS AGO?

I MEAN, A FEW MONTHS AGO I ALMOST WIPED OUT IN WEGMANS BECAUSE I TRIPPED AND SLAMMED MY LEGS INTO THE SHOPPING CART.

I THINK PEOPLE LOOK AT THAT AND UNDERSTAND THAT FOLKS ARE HUMANS.

BUT YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, WE SEE IT ON REPLAY OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND FOLKS ON THE OTHER SIDE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPIN IT AND ADD THEIR COMMENTARY TO IT IN WAYS THAT HAVEN'’T BEEN POSSIBLE IN THE PAST.

MICHAEL: AND I AM VERY UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRIPPING AND MOMENTARY FORGETFULNESS.

I AM THERE MYSELF.

SO I AM VERY TOLERANT.

BUT I THINK FOR ME, TO SPEAK ON WHAT HAS CAUSED CONCERN AND I THINK A LOT OF AMERICANS SHARE THIS, IS THAT IT HAS SEEMED IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS, HE IS VERY CONFIDENTLY STATING THINGS AS FACTS WHICH ARE NOBLY NOT TRUE.

TEACHING POLITICAL THEORY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND SOMETIMES HE IS CLOSE.

IN THE ZONE.

BUT IT DOES START TO MAKE YOU CONCERNED THAT HE IS GETTING A LITTLE DETACHED FROM REALITY, AND IN THE WORLD WE LIVE IN, THAT IS A VERY DANGEROUS THING.

SO I THINK WE OUGHT TO BE TREATING THE PRESIDENT WITH RESPECT, IT SHOULD NOT BECOME PART OF THE PARTISAN CRITIQUE.

AND I THINK THAT THE WORLD TREATED RONALD REAGAN VERY UNFAIRLY IN THIS REGARD.

YOU GO BACK AND LOOK AT CLIPS OF RONALD REAGAN, THERE IS NOTHING AS DISTURBING AS SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE'’RE SEEING NOW FOR MCCONNELL, FROM BIDEN.

AND I WAS THERE FOR THE LAST YEAR.

I WAS THERE ON THE LAST DAY WHEN RONALD REAGAN SPONTANEOUSLY TALKED TO THE 70 MOST SENIOR PEOPLE STILL LEFT WITHOUT NOTES, WITHOUT A TELEPROMPTER, FOR ABOUT HALF AN HOUR.

IT WAS ELEGANT AND ELOQUENT AND NO SIGN OF ANY MENTAL INCAPACITY.

I THINK THE STANDARD HAS CHANGED BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO DEFEND THE PRESIDENT PROCESS POLICIES.

UNDERSTANDABLE.

BUT I THINK IF YOU TRY TO LOOK AT IT OBJECTIVELY, IT'’S VERY HARD TO SAY THAT THERE IS NO BASIS FOR CONCERN BASED ON THE VIDEOS OF THE LAST SIX MONTHS.

JESSE: LISTEN, I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH HOW MANY TRIPS SOMEONE HAS AROUND THE SUN.

I AM CONCERNED WITH THEIR WORLDVIEW, THEIR ENERGY APPROACHING THE JOB.

WE CAN ALL NAME FOLKS WHO ARE 25 OR 30, SOME OF WHOM HAVE THE MATURITY OF A 10-YEAR-OLD AND OTHERS WHO ARE WISE BEYOND YOUR YEARS.

AND I CAN THINK OF MULTIPLE ELECTED OFFICIALS WELL IN THEIR 80'’S WHO ARE SHARP AS A TACK AND DOING GREAT FORWARD THINKING WORK, WHEN.

I LOOK AT THE POSITIONS.

OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, IT IS FORWARD THINKING.

IT IS ENERGETIC THEY ARE GETTING THINGS DONE.

I DON'’T THINK WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE WE NEED TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE PRESIDENT PROCESS CAPACITY AND TALKING ABOUT THE 25TH AMENDMENT.

ANYTHING ALONG THOSE LINES SEEMS VASTLY OUT OF LINE.

GAUTAM: MEDICALLY, THE TRIPPING AND FALLING IS A MEDICAL THING.

THE GOOD THING IS HE GOT RIGHT BACK UP.

AND THE VIDEOS, HE IS ABOUT AS COHERENT AS I WAS WHEN I MET --, SO IT'’S HARD FOR ME TO INTERPRET.

STEPPING OUT OF THE BIDEN THING, THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT JOE BIDEN, RIGHT, WE HAVE A SUPREME COURT WITH PEOPLE WHO HOLD ON FOR FOREVER, WELL PAST THE POINT IT IS CLEAR THAT THERE ARE SOME ISSUES THERE.

THAT IS BIPARTISAN.

SENIOR MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, DIANNE FEINSTEIN IN THE SENATE CLEARLY HAS ISSUES THAT LAY QUESTION TO.

HER COMPETENCE SO WE HAVE TO ASK THE QUESTION, WHAT IS THE POLITICAL -- IS THE POLITICAL SYSTEM FAILING THAT IT IS ALLOWING PEOPLE WHO HAVE REACHED THE POINT WHERE IT IS NOT CLEAR THAT THEY CAN DO THEIR JOB, LETTING THEM HOLD ON POWER FOR MULTIPLE TERMS IN OFFICE MICHAEL: AGAIN, IT'’S NOT A NEW PHENOMENON.

WILLIAM DOUGLASS WAS EMBARRASSING ON THE COURT IN GREAT YEARS.

AND WAS NOT ABLE TO FUNCTION.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT DO YOU DO AND HOW DO YOU HANDLE IT.

THERE ARE DIFFERENT RESPONSES.

IN THE CONGRESS, VOTERS CAN ULTIMATELY DECIDE.

WHAT OUGHT TO HAPPEN IN THE LETTER SITUATIONS IS WHAT USED TO HAPPEN IN THE OLD DAYS, IS THAT THE STATE PARTIES AND THE GOVERNORS WOULD GET TOGETHER AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT SOME WAY TO TALK TO THE RELEVANT SENATOR AND SAY LOOK, YOUR TIME HAS COME.

WE WANT YOU TO STEP DOWN.

THEN YOU TRY TO OFFER UP -- IN THE SHORT-TERM -- THE MOST PALATABLE ALTERNATIVE POSSIBLE.

SOMETIMES THAT USED TO WORK, SOMETIMES THAT DID NOT.

THE PARTIES HAVE KIND OF BROKEN DOWN AND SO YOU DON'’T SEE THAT HAPPENING ANYMORE.

THAT IS WHAT ARE TO HAPPEN IN THE CONGRESS A LITTLE MORE OFTEN.

JESSE: I THINK ABOUT TWO THINGS.

ONE, TO STATE THE OBVIOUS AND MAY BE AWKWARD TO SAY, SENIORS HAVE HUGE VOTING POWER.

POLITICAL PARTIES, EVERYONE OF ALL STRIPES ARE RELUCTANT TO SAY SOMETHING AND IMPLY SOMETHING THAT MIGHT OFFEND AN INCREDIBLY POWERFUL, RELIABLE VOTING BLOC.

THAT ISRAEL, WHETHER IT IS APPROPRIATE OR NOT DOESN'’T MATTER, IT IS A POLITICAL REALITY -- THAT IS REAL.

WHETHER IT IS UP OR BE OR NOT DOESN'’T MATTER, IT IS POLITICAL REALLY.

THE AVERAGE AGE OF THE HOUSE HAS GONE DOWN.

LOOK AT THE SPEAKER, THE MINORITY LEADER.

AGE WISE, THOSE ARE BIG SHIFTS.

WE NOW HAVE A GEN Z MEMBER OF CONGRESS.

CITY CONCILLORS AROUND THE COUNTRY, YOU ARE SEEING FOLKS IN THEIR 20'’S AND 30'’S GETTING ELECTED.

THEPLAY PLAN IS THERE, WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A GENERATIONAL SHIFT AT THE TOP TO CREATE ROOM FOR FOLKS TO MOVE UP IS A DIFFERENT CONVERSATION.

BUT WE WOULD BE DOING A DISSERVICE TO YOUR VIEWERS IF WE DIDN'’T POINT OUT THAT THERE IS THIS BUBBLY ENERGY OF FOLKS IN THEIR 20'’S, 30'’S, 40'’S WHO ARE ANXIOUS TO SERVE, MAY BE AT A SLOWER PACE THAN I MIGHT LIKE, BUT THEY ARE GETTING IN THERE AND MAKING INROADS IN PUBLIC SERVICE.

IT'’S NOT ALL DOOM AND GLOOM.

GAUTAM: JESSE MERMELL AND MICHAEL ASKED TRUE, THANKS.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

I AM GAUTAM MUKUNDA.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

AND GOOD NIGHT.

♪