>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," DID FLORIDA GOVERNOR RON DESANTIS COMMIT A CRIME WHEN HIS TEAM LIED TO THE GROUP OF MIGRANTS, TO GET THEM TO BOARD PLANES TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD?

A LOCAL CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY A LOCAL CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY AND THE STATE REP FROM THE VINEYARD THINK SO.

THEY JOIN ME.

PLUS, AN IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT NOVEMBER ELECTION DEBATES HERE AT GBH, SORT OF.

THE TIES BETWEEN CLIMATE JUSTICE, THESE ADORABLE ATLANTIC PUFFINS, AND SO-CALLED URBAN "SACRIFICE ZONES."

AND REMEMBERING GBH JAZZ RADIO HOST ERIC JACKSON.

>> BRAUDE: THE ROUGHLY 50 MIGRANTS FLOWN UNANNOUNCED TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD LAST WEEK ARE SETTLING INTO THEIR LATEST TEMPORARY HOME: JOINT BASE CAPE COD IN BOURNE, COMPLETE WITH ACCESS TO ESSENTIAL SERVICES LIKE HEALTHCARE, AND EDUCATION FOR THE KIDS AT THE TOWN'S PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

BUT ALL IS NOT WELL THAT ENDS WELL.

BECAUSE THERE ARE A SLEW OF LEGAL QUESTIONS SURROUNDING THE FACT THAT MOST OF THE MIGRANTS SAY THEY WERE TRICKED INTO GETTING ON THE PLANE, WITH THE PROMISE OF HOUSING, ACCESS TO JOBS, AND EDUCATION.

NOT ONE OF THEM WAS TOLD ABOUT THE BENEFACTOR OF THEIR JOURNEY, RON DESANTIS, AND HIS SO-CALLED "RELOCATION PROGRAM," WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A CRUEL POLITICAL STUNT.

BUT COULD IT ALSO BE ILLEGAL?

THE LOCAL ORGANIZATION LAWYERS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS BELIEVES IT IS AND IS URGING U.S. ATTORNEY RACHAEL ROLLINS AND ATTORNEY GENERAL MAURA HEALEY TO OPEN A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

I'M JOINED BY MIRIAN ALBERT, A STAFF ATTORNEY FOR THE ORGANIZATION, AND STATE REP DYLAN FERNANDES, WHO REPRESENTS MARTHA'S VINEYARD, FALMOUTH AND NANTUCKET.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU, HOTCH.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Braude: REPRESENTATIVE, AS I WAS COMING INTO THE STUDIO, I WAS LOOKING AT THE "BOSTON GLOBE" ONLINE AND LFS A PICTURE OF VINEYARD HYPOCRITES WHICH MIRRORS WHAT I HEARD OVER THE WEEKEND WHICH IS THE ELITES OF MARTHA'S VINEYARD WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE ROUGHLY 50 PEOPLE FROM VENEZUELA THROUGH SAN ANTONIO.

IS THERE MY TRUTH TO THAT AT ALL?

>> NO, THERE'S A LOT TO UNPACK THERE, BUT I'LL DO MY BEST.

FIRST,HOUSE A COMMUNITY HAT IMMEDIATELY RALLIED AS SOON AS WE HEARD HAT THESE PEOPLE WERE HERE.

WE GOT NO MOATS WHATSOEVER -- NOTICE WHATSOEVER, BUT AS SOON AS THEY GOT HERE, WE RALLIED TO GIVE THEM FOOD, SHELTER, HEALTHCARE, EVERYTHING THEY NEEDED TO TREAT THEM WITH THE HUMANITY AND DIGNITY THEY DESERVE.

BUT HE WAS A TEMPORARY FACILITY WITH TWO BATHROOMS AND ONE SHOWER.

ULTIMATELY WE NEEDED A MORE SUSTAINABLE SOLUTION.

HERE WE TREAT HUMAN BEINGS LIKE HUMAN BEINGS.

WE GAVE THEM AN OPTION OF GOING TO A MUCH LARGER PA SILT ON CAPE -- FACILITY ON CAPE COD WHERE EVERY INDIVIDUAL HAS HAIR OWN ROOM.

EVERY FAMILY HAS THEIR OWN SPACE.

THEIR WRAP-AROUND HEALTHCARE SERVICES, CONTINUED ACCESS TO IMMIGRATION SUPPORT AND HEALTHCARE.

>> Braude: SO THE COROLLARY NARRATIVE SOME PEOPLE ARE SPREADING ISHOUSE AN EXPULSION FROM THE VINEYARD TO THE JOINT BASE IS B.S.

>> TOTALLY B.S.

HE WAS COMPLETELY VONL VOLUNTARY.

PEOPLE CAN COME AND GO AS THEY ARE NOW.

LOST A NATIONAL GNAR -- THERE'S A NATIONAL NARRATIVE PUSHED BY REPUBLICANS THAT IS FALSE.

MARTHA'S VINEYARD IS DIVERSE AND WEWELCOMING.

OVER HALF OF NANTUCKET.

NANTUCKET HAD THE BIGGEST POPULATION GROWTH OF MY TOWN IN THE STATE SINCE THE LAST CENSUS ALMOST ENTIRELY BECAUSE OF NEW IMMIGRANT FAMILIES.

WE ARE INCREDIBLY WELCOMING.

RON DeSantis SHOULD KNOW THAT BECAUSE HE WAS IN MY COMMUNITY A MONTH AGO SUCKING UP TO DONORS AT NANTUCKET AT A $50,000 A PLATE DINNER.

>> Braude: MIRIAN, SOME OF YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES HAVE BEEN THERE SINCE THE BEGINNING.

WHAT ARE THE REPRESENTATIONS YOU'VE HEARD FROM PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT THEY SHOULD EXPECT AT THE OTHER END OF THE PLANE RIDE?

>> LAWYERS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS AND MYSELF HAVE BEEN ON THE GROUND SINCE THURSDAY.

I WAS THERE AT MARTHA'S VINEYARD WHEN THE MIGRANTS SHORTLY ARRIVED.

WHAT A LOT OF FOLKS SHARED IS THEY WERE MADE PROMISES TO RECEIVE EMPLOYMENT, POOD ASSISTANCE -- FOOD ASSISTANCE, CLOTHING, ENGLISH CLASSES, AN ARRAY OF DIFFERENT SERVICES, INB COLLUDING -- INCLUDING THEIR IMMIGRATION PROCEEDINGS MOVING FORWARD.

>> Braude: I SPOKE TO ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES YVONNE THIS MORNING.

I ASKED A QUESTION I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ANSWER TO, WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENS TO SOMEONE ON THE CAPE AND BORN WHO HAS A HEARING OR SOME OTHER LEGAL OBLIGATION THAT HE OR SHE HAS TO MEET?

WHAT DO THEY DO?

HOW DO THEY GET TO IT?

WHAT HAPPENS?

>> RIGHT, I MEAN, THAT'S WHY, YOU KNOW, LAWYERS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS ALONG WITH ALL THE PRO-BONO ATTORNEYS THAT HAVE BEEN ON THE GROUND, WE HAVE BEEN ALL BEEN WORKING ON MAKING SURE HAT ALL INDIVIDUALS ARE REPRESENTED BY INDIVIDUAL IMMIGRATION ATTORNEYS, THAT THEY'RE ABLE TO ADDRESS HOSE ISSUES AND HOSE QUESTIONS.

SO ESSENTIALLY REACHING OUT TO IMMIGRATION OFFICIALS, COMMUNICATING THAT, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE MOTT GOING TO BE IN -- NOT GOING TO BE IN WHATEVER OFFICE THEY WERE ORIGINALLY ASSIGNED TO AND THEN RESCHEDULING THAT OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE.

BUT HOARSE THE EFFORTS ONGOING NOW MAKING SURE THAT EVERYONE HAS REPRESENTATION MOVING FORWARD MANY THEIR IMMIGRATION PROCEEDINGS.

>> Braude: REPRESENTATIVE, I KNOW YOU REACHED OUT TO U.S. ATTORNEY RACHAEL ROLLINS, OTHERS HAVE REACHED OUT TO ATTORNEY GENERAL MAURA HEALEY ABOUT WHETHER ALREADY POSSIBLE CRIMES.

HERE'S WHAT ROLLINS AND HEALEY HAD TO SAY ABOUT THIS PUBLICLY.

>> WE'RE HOPING TO GET SOME INPUT FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ABOUT WHAT OUR MIDDLESEX ACCEPTS MIGHT BE IF ANY AT ALL.

>> MY TEAM CONTINUE TO TALK TO THE BAKER ADMINISTRATION AND LEGISLATIVE LEADERS.

THE FOCUS HAS BEEN AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE MAKING SURE HAT THE MIGRANTS GET THE HOUSING AND ARE CARED FOR.

>> Braude: REPRESENTATIVE, ARE YOU GETTING ANY DIFFERENT MESSAGE PRIVATELY THAN THE ONE THEY'RE DELIVERING PUBLICLY?

>> NO, I THINK WE'RE LUCKY TO HAVE INCREDIBLY STRONG LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS MT.

STATE IN MAURA HEALEY AND RACHAEL ROLLINS.

I HAVE BEEN CALLING ON THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO TAKE ACTION HERE ANDO AND TO LOOK INTO THIS.

THIS IS NOT ONLY MORALLY CRIMINAL BUT THERE ARE CLEAR LEGAL IMPLICATIONS AROUND TRAFFICKING, DEPRIVATION OF LIBERTY, FRAUD, A MINIMUM HERE AMONGST OTHERS.

SO, I, YOU KNOW, AND I SPOKE WITH PEOPLE TODAY, I WAS ON -- AT THE FACILITIES TODAY AND TALKED TO SEVERAL INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE RELATED TO ME EXACTLY WHAT THEY WENT THROUGH AND GAVE ME A PULL PLAY-BY-PLAY OF ESSENTIALLY THE LAST FEW MONTHS OF THEIR LIVES, AND THEY WERE TOLD THAT, WHEN HAIR BOARDING THEIR FIRST -- WHEN THEY WERE BOARDING THE FIRST PLANE THEY WERE GOING TO WASHINGTON, D.C.

IF YOU ARE TOLD BY SOMEONE YOU ARE GOING SOMEWHERE AND YOU END UP SOMEWHERE ELSE, I'M MOTT AN ATTORNEY -- I'M NOT AN ATTORNEY BUT I WOULD GUESS THERE ARE LEGAL IMPLICATIONS TO THAT.

>> Braude: I AM AN ATTORNEY BUT NOT A VERY GOOD ONE.

I AM TOTALLY WITH THE REPRESENTATIVE.

IF I MADE A REPRESENTATION TO A PERSON ON THE STREET, IF YOU GET ON THE PLANE, HERE IS WHERE YOU WILL GO AND WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET ON THE OTHER END OF THE LINE, AND ALL OF IT WAS MISREPRESENTATION, I'M ASSUMING I SHOULD HAVE A PROBLEM.

SHOULD RON DeSantis HAVE A PROBLEM?

>> JUST ECHOING WHAT THE REPRESENTATIVE SAID, WE'VE ALSO, AS HE DISPLAYED THE LETTERS WE SENTO THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CALLING FOR THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, WE DEFINITELY THINK THERE ARE CRIMINAL IMPLICATIONS THAT SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED.

>> Braude: WHAT SPECIFICALLY?

FALSE IMPRISONMENT, HUMAN TRAFFICKING?

WHAT ARE THE POTENTIAL CRIMES?

>> AROUND -- YEAH, AROUND KIDNAPPING, TRAFFICKING,S FRAUD, DEFINITELY ARE THINGS THAT SHOULD BE EXPLORED.

ON A PARALLEL TRACK, LAWYERS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS ARE EXPLORING CIVIL IMPLICATIONS THAT WE DEFINITELY THINK THERE SHOULD BE VIABLE CONSEQUENCES THAT ARE BEING ASSERTED AND THAT'S BEING EXPLORED THROUGH OUR OFFICE AND OUR LEGAL TEAM.

>> Braude: I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION I'VE NOT SEEN ANSWERED AND HAVE BEEN TOO EMBARRASSED TO ASK.

I UNDERSTAND THE FLORIDA LEGISLATURE HAS APPROPRIATED $12 MILLION TO ESSENTIALLY THROW PEOPLE WHO ARE FOR THE MOST PART AT LEAST IN TERMS OF THESE PEOPLE TRYING TO ESCAPE HORRIBLE THINGS BACK HOME OUT OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS HOW DOES RON DeSantis, EVEN IF THERE WERE NO MISREPRESENTATIONS, HOW DOES RON DeSantis HAVE THE POWER WITH HOSE -- THOSE DOLLARS TO HAVE SOMEBODY KICKED OUT OF A STATE HE HAS NO JURISDICTION OVER, TEXAS, TO GO TO ANOTHER LOCALE?

HOW DOES THAT WORK?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, LIKE I SAID, WE ARE DEFINITELY EXPLORING ALL VIABLE OPTIONS AND GETTING AS MUCH INFORMATION AS WE CAN TO ENSURE HAT WE DON'T LET MY RESPONSIBLE PARTY REPEAT THIS AGAIN AND TO HOLD EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE.

>> Braude: OR EVEN AN IRRESPONSIBLE PARTY LIKE HIM.

DYLAN FERNANDES, ONE OF THE THINGS MOST TROUBLING TO ME ABOUT THIS -- BECAUSE I'VE SEEN YOUR QUOTES AND THEY HAVE BEEN STRONG ABOUT THE CRUELTIY HERE AND I AGREE ABOUT EVERY SINGLE WORD YOU'VE UTTERED -- BUT THE SAD WORRY IS THIS IS A TRUMP WANNA BE, RON DeSantis, WHO IS POLLING THE SAME MANUSCRIPT THAT DONALD TRUMP ANNOUNCED ON DAY ONE -- RAPISTS, CRIMINALS, MOTT THE BEST, ET CETERA -- THAT'S WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO, ANDS WILL A PIECE OF THIS COUNTRY, SADLY, IN 2022, THAT EATS THAT UP, ISN'T THERE?

>> THERE IS.

AND I -- YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULD SEE MY INBOX RIGHT NOW AND HOW UGLY IT IS.

>> Braude: TELL US ABOUT IT.

TELL US HOW UGLY IT IS.

>> WELL, MY POOR SAFE HAS HAD TO LISTEN TO VOICE MAILS BUT WE'VE HAD TO ALERT THE STATE POLICE OF DEATH LETS.

I'M GETTING STUFF ALL THE TIME.

IT SPEAKS TO THE NATURE OF WHERE WE'RE AT MONTANA COUNTRY WHERE TREATING -- WHERE WE'RE AT IN THIS COUNTRY WHERE TREATING INDIVIDUALS WITH DIGNITY -- THAT ANY HUMAN BEING COULD BE THIS DERAVED TO USE WOMEN AND CHILDREN AS POLITICAL PAWNS JUST TO GET ON TUCKER CARLSON AND BE TOUGH ON IMMIGRATION.

WHAT WE NEED TO BE GROUNDED IN IS THESE ARE HUMAN BEINGS AND THEY DESERVE TO BE TREATED WITH DIGNITY AND RESPECT.

ON THE CAPE ISLANDS, NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE GET USED AS PAWNS, WE'LL SHOW THEM THAT HUMANITY AND BE HERE TO SUPPORT THEM.

>> Braude: I WANT TO BE CLEAR, YOUR OFFICE, YOU HAVE RECEIVED DEATH LETS AS A RESULT OF YOUR ADVOCACY FOR THESE PEOPLE.

>> YES, OUR POOR STAFF HAS GONE WILL YOU THIS VOICEMAIL AND THE STATE POLICE REACHED OUT TO SAY THEY'RE LOOKING INTO THEM.

>> Braude: MIRIAN, CERTAIN MIGRANTS FROM VENEZUELA HAVE TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS.

AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

>> THERE WAS A D.P.S.

DESIGNATION FOR VENEZUELA BUT THE DATE WOULD HAVE BEEN FOR MARCH 202 IS.

>> Braude: WHO WOULD HAVE TO ASK CONGRESS TO EX END HAT DATE SO PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME IN IN THIS RECENT GROUP WOULD BE COVERED BY THAT AND THEY WOULD BE PROTECTED BY CONGRESS, THE BODY OF LAST RESORT?

>> THE SECRETARY, RIGHT.

>> Braude: OH.

YOU WOULD HAVE TO EXTEND THE DESIGNATION FOR G.P.S.

FOR VENEZUELA.

>> Braude: SO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION COULD EXTEND HAT STATUS TO THEM SHOULD IT CHOOSE TO?

>> RIGHT.

I MEAN, THEY HAVE TO EXTEND THE G.P.S.

AS A NATION.

THE FOLKS PRESENT IN THIS GROUP ALSO HAD OTHER VIABLE IMMIGRATION CLAIMS.

>> Braude: LIKE ASYLUM CLAIMS.

YES, OR POTENTIAL FOR UVs THROUGH THE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION AS WELL.

>> Braude: THIS MAY BE A NAIVE QUESTION IN LIGHT OF THE PHONE MESSAGES YOU'VE GOTTEN -- THERE WAS A TIME NOT TOO LONG WHEN A REPUBLICAN SENATOR FROM FLORIDA, WHO'S STILL THERE, MARCO RUBIO, WAS PART OF A GANG OF EIGHT IN THE SENATE, FOUR REPUBLICANS, FOUR DEMOCRATS, WHO ADVOCATED FOR A COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REPORM.

HE'S CONE A VIRTUAL VIRTUE ONE-EIGHTY.

DO YOU THINK WE'RE SO POLARIZED IT'S SO TOTALLY HOPELESS?

>> I NEVER LOSE HOPE.

AS A LEGISLATURE, I THINK YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO HOPE FOR SOMETHING BETTER.

I RANG OUT THE DEATH THREAT PIECE FOR ME.

A COUPLE OF VOICE MAILS TO ME IS NOTHING SOME PEOPLE HAVE GONE WILL YOU.

SOME WALKED 60 DAYS JUST TO GET TO THE BORDER, FOLLOWED BY GANG VIOLENCE, SOME ROBBED, OTHERS PHYSICALLY HARMED.

DON'T WORRY ABOUT MY VOICEMAIL.

WHAT MATTERS IS THE INCREDIBLE PLIGHT THESE PEOPLE HAVE GONE WILL YOU.

ONCE THEY'VE GOTTEN HERE AFTER GOING THROUGH ALL THAT, THEY WEREN'T MET WITH HUMAN DECENCY, THEY'RE MET WITH A LIE AND SHIPPED OFF.

BUT WE'RE GOING TO TREAT PEOPLE LIKE HUMAN BEINGS.

>> Braude: LET ME SEASON THAT BEFORE YOU GO.

I WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE IF RON DeSantis WAS AN HONEST SOUL AND IN THE SAME SITUATION AS ONE OF THESE FAMILIES WAS IN COLOMBIA OR VENEZUELA HAT, IF HE LOVED HIS FAMILY, HE WOULD DO THE SAME THING THEY'RE DOING.

MIRIAN, DYLAN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> APPRECIATE IT.

>> Braude: LET ME SHOW YOU SOMETHING MANY OF YOU WON'T RECOGNIZE.

KNOW WHAT THAT IS?

I DIDN'T THINK SO.

THAT'S A DEBATE BETWEEN A REPUBLICAN AND A DEMOCRAT IN MASSACHUSETTS JUST BEFORE A NOVEMBER ELECTION.

IN FACT, THAT ONE WAS ONE WE HAD HERE, FOUR YEARS AGO BETWEEN ATTORNEY GENERAL CANDIDATES MAURA HEALEY AND JAY MCMAHON.

SPEAKING OF FOUR YEARS AGO, AND FIVE YEARS BEFORE THAT, VIRTUALLY EVERY CAMPAIGN AGREED TO A GBH-HOSTED DEBATE IN EVERY SINGLE STATEWIDE RACE, INCLUDING THE GUBERNATORIAL CONTEST BETWEEN CHARLIE BAKER AND HIS DEMOCRATIC OPPONENTS.

KNOW HOW MANY DEBATES WE HAVE SCHEDULED BETWEEN THE DEMOCRAT AND THE REPUBLICAN THIS ELECTION CYCLE?

NONE.

NOT ONE.

AND WE'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES.

IN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL RACE, THE REPUBLICAN, JAY MCMAHON, HAS PROPOSED SEVEN DEBATES.

THAT MAY BE A BIT MUCH.

THE DEMOCRAT, ANDREA CAMPBELL'S RESPONSE TO A ONE ON ONE WITH ME LAST WEEK?

: >> WHEN WE SAID, 'WE'LL SEE,' IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THOSE OTHER PRIORITIES ARE.

>> BRAUDE: SO JUST SO I DON'T PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH, THERE IS NO COMMITMENT AS OF YET TO A ONE ON ONE DEBATE?

>> I WILL SAY "WELL SEE" AGAIN.

>> BRAUDE: SHE THEN REFERENCED A DEBATE THAT ALREADY HAPPENED; A DEBATE BEFORE THE PRIMARY, WITH ALL THREE DEMOCRATS AND THE REPUBLICAN IN WORCESTER.

YOU SEE IT?

NEITHER DID ANYONE ELSE-- 117 VIEWS ON YOUTUBE.

LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR?

THE DRISCOLL CAMPAIGN SAID THEY'D GET BACK TO US.

SHOULD HAVE ALSO SAID IF THE PHONE DOESN'T RING, YOU'LL KNOW IT'S ME.

IT HASN'T.

AUDITOR?

DIANA DIZOGLIO'S CAMPAIGN DID GET BACK TO US, SAYING SHE WOULD DEBATE, BUT ONLY IF ALL FIVE CANDIDATES ARE PRESENT, FIVE INCLUDING THE THREE WHO BARELY REGISTER IN A RECENT SUFFOLK POLL.

TRUST ME, THIS IS NOT ABOUT FAIRNESS TO ALL, IT'S ABOUT ENSURING HER REPUBLICAN OPPONENT, ANTHONY AMORE, HAS AS LITTLE AIR TIME TO MAKE HIS CASE AS POSSIBLE.

AND IN THE HEALEY VS. GEOFF DIEHL RACE FOR GOVERNOR, THE A.G. HAS AGREED TO ONE DEBATE WITH THE "GLOBE," WBUR AND WCVB IN LATE OCTOBER, AFTER MANY THOUSANDS OF BALLOTS WILL HAVE BEEN MAILED IN.

HERE'S HOPING THERE ARE TWO MORE, EARLIER, AS DIEHL HAS REQUESTED.

LISTEN, I UNDERSTAND WHY HERSHEL WALKER DOESN'T WANT TO DEBATE INCUMBENT SENATOR REVEREND WARNOCK IN GEORGIA, ESPECIALLY ON CLIMATE... >> THEY CONTINUE TO TRY TO FOOL YOU LIKE THEY'RE HELPING YOU OUT, BUT THEY'RE NOT!

THEY'RE NOT HELPING YOU OUT, BECAUSE A LOT OF MONEY, IT'S GOING TO TREES.

YOU KNOW THAT, DON'T YOU?

IT'S GOING INTO TREES.

WE GOT ENOUGH TREES!

DON'T WE HAVE ENOUGH TREES AROUND HERE?

>> BRAUDE: BUT THE DEBATE-AVOIDERS HERE ARE COMPETENT, SMART CANDIDATES, AND THERE'S A VOTER-CENTRIC TRADITION HERE, TOO.

BUT CONSULTANTS, SEEING BIG POLLING LEADS FOR THEIR DEMOCRATIC CLIENTS, APPEAR TO BE SAYING, "WHY JEOPARDIZE THAT?"

AND THEY MAY BE RIGHT, JUST SAYING NO TO DEBATES MAY BE GOOD FOR THE DEMOCRATS, BUT IT IS SURELY NOT GOOD FOR DEMOCRACY.

THERE'S PLENTY OF TIME TO FILL THIS VOID.

LET'S HOPE THEY DO!

NEXT UP, THERE ARE PLENTY OF INDICATORS TELLING US CLIMATE CHANGE IS GETTING WORSE.

MULTIPLE AREAS OF THE COUNTRY BRACING TO BREAK NEW WILDFIRE RECORDS EACH YEAR; INCREASING "EXTREME HEAT" EVENTS, LIKE THE ONE THAT JUST FINALLY LIFTED IN CALIFORNIA; GLOBAL SEA LEVELS RISING, AND MORE MASSIVE, DEBILITATING STORMS, LIKE THE TYPHOON THAT BROUGHT RECORD-BREAKING RAINS TO JAPAN, AND THE HURRICANE THAT BROUGHT CRIPPLING FLOODING AND POWER OUTRAGES FIRST TO PUERTO RICO AND NOW THE DOMINICAN REPUBLIC.

YET FOR SOME, IT'S NOT THOSE THINGS THAT SOUND THE ALARM, BUT RATHER THIS LITTLE GUY-- THE ATLANTIC PUFFIN.

ADORABLE, AND SEEN BY MANY AS A REPORT CARD FOR OUR CLIMATE ACTION.

THE CLEANER THE ENVIRONMENT, THE MORE THE PUFFINS THRIVE, WHICH GETS A LOT OF PEOPLE TO PAY ATTENTION.

AND PHOTOGRAPHER DERRICK JACKSON HAS SPENT MANY YEARS DRAWING ATTENTION TO THOSE CONSERVATION EFFORTS, WITH BOOKS LIKE "PROJECT PUFFIN."

BUT THESE DAYS, AS HE RECENTLY WROTE IN THE "BOSTON GLOBE," HE'S PUSHING HIS AUDIENCES TO FOCUS ON THE NOT-SO-CUTE, SO-CALLED "SACRIFICE ZONES."

DERRICK JACKSON, UNION OF CONCERNED SCIENTISTS FELLOW, PULITZER PRIZE FINALIST AND CO-AUTHOR AND PHOTOGRAPHER OF "PROJECT PUFFIN" AND "THE PUFFIN PLAN" JOINS ME NOW.

IT'S GREATO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON, JIM.

>> Braude: YOU AND THE PUFFINS GO WAY BACK.

THEY GO FROM SLAUGHTERED BY HUMANS AT THE END OF THE 19th 19th CENTURY TO MIRACULOUSLY RESTORED BY SIEVE -- STEVE AND OTHERS AT THE END OF THE 20th 20th CENTURY TO AT-RISK AGAIN.

>> PUFFINS ARE UNDER AN ASSAULT.

IN EUROPE HAY'RE ALREADY LISTED AS ENDANGERED BECAUSE OF POLLUTION, OVERFISHING AND CLIMATE CHANGE.

MANY CANADA, THEY'RE NOT ENDANGERED BUT A BIRD OF CONCERN ON THE INTERNATIONAL RED LIST.

SO THAT'S BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHANGE.

THE GULF OF MAINE IS WARMING FASTER THAN ALMOST ALL OCEAN BOD CORGIS ON FIRST.

>> Braude: PEOPLE HAVE A HARD TIME ACCEPTING THAT.

IT'S ONE OF THE IF NOT THE FASTEST WARMING BODY OF WATER ON THE PLANET.

>> THAT'S CORRECT BECAUSE IT HAS A UNIQUE CONFLUENCE OCCURRENCE THAT'S BEING DISRUPTED.

FOR CENTURIES IT WAS "BALANCED" BY THE GULF STREAM COMING FROM THE SOUTH AND THE CURRENT FROM THE NORTH.

WITH THE MELTING SEA ICE UP NORTH, THE CURRENT HAS GOTTEN SLOWER AND THE GULF STREAM IS TAKING PRECEDENCE.

>> Braude: AND THAT AFFECTS WHAT HAY EAT.

>> RIGHT.

>> Braude: WHAT'S THE "SACRIFICE ZONES"?

>> THEY ARE NEIGHBORHOODS, USUALLY COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, WHERE THEY HAVE OIL REFINERIYS, COAL ASH AND OTHER VILE INDUSTRIAL SITES THAT HAPPEN TO BE DUMPED THERE AND THE POOREST LIVE THERE.

>> Braude: YOU MAKE THE FINE PIECE IN THE "GLOBE" THAT WHAT'S HAPPENING TO PUFFINS AND MOTHERS AND CHILDREN IN CHICAGO WITH SOME TOXICITY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD ARE TWO SIDES OF THE COINS.

>> IF WE CAN STOP CLIMATE CHANGE AND CURB THE FOSSIL FUEL WE'LL CURB POLLUTION IN SEETHE CHICAGO AND KEEP THE WATERS SAFE FOR PUFFINS.

>> Braude: I WAS MEFERS TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION A YEAR OR SO AGO.

I SAID ONE OF REASONS PEOPLE ARE SO CONCERNED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE PUFFIN IS BECAUSE IT'S THE CUTEST BIRD ON THE PLANET.

TO MY AMAZEMENT, YOU SAID IT'S TRUE.

YOU'RE SAYING IT'S EASY FOR SOMEONE SITTING ON THE FENCE ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE TO RELATE TO SAVING THAT PUFFIN BUT THEY DON'T GIVE AS MUCH A DAMN ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE FOR A POOR FAMILY IN A CITY OF AMERICA.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

IT'S TIME OLD LINES OF ENVIRONMENTAL THINKING THAT FOCUSED ON ANIMALS AND LADGED -- LAND TRUSTS AND THAT SORT OF HINGE, THERE SHOULD BE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN THAT AND ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE ON DUMPED ON FAMILIES THROUGHOUT THIS NATION.

>> Braude: I ALMOST DAILY AM SO INCREDULOUS THAT PEOPLE OTHER THAN REPUBLICANS WHO ARE GETTING FOSSIL FUEL CONTRIBUTIONS SO IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MERITS OF THE ISSUE, IT HAS TO DO WITH THE ONLY THING THEY STAND FOR WHICH IS REELECTION AND OBVIOUSLY THE MONEY HELPS.

THEY HEAR ABOUT EXTENSION AND MILLIONS OF SPECIES IN GREENLAND.

DO THEY GET WHAT'S HAPPENING PARTICULARLY TO LOWER-McPEOPLE IN OUR CITIES.

>> WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS I GIVE A TALK, I SHOW PHOTOS OF THE PUFFINS AND THE FAMILIES AND SHOW POSITIVE HINGES OF FAMILIES GETTING SOLAR POWER IN WORKING CLASS AND LOW-INCOME COMMUNITIES AND OFFSHORE WIND FACILITIES IN EUROPE, AND WHEN I GIVE TALKS TO BIRD-WATCHING GROUPS, WILL MIGHT BE A PERSON IN WILL WHO SAYS I DIDN'T COME HERE TO GET A POLITICAL SERMON, BUT MOST PEOPLE RESPOND POSITIVELY AND REALLY UNDERWE'RE ALL CONNECTED NOW.

>> Braude: SO WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT CHICAGO NEIGHBORHOOD YOU WRITE ABOUT AND I THINK IT'S SAN DIEGO WHERE YOU SAID -- THAT'S WHERE THE SOLAR PANELS ARE.

>> SAN DIEGO IS ONE OF THE CITIES, YES.

>> Braude: WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHY ONE GETS IT AND ONE CLEARLY MOTT.

>> MAINLY, IT DEPENDS ON WHAT STATES AND WHAT LOCALITIES HAVE PRIVATE PROGRAMS AND ASSERTIVE PROGRAMS TO GET SOLAR ON PEOPLE'S HOMES.

MORNS IS A PLATE WHERE -- AND THERE ARE VERY DIFFERENT PROGRAMS IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

IT'S, FOR INSTANCE, IF YOU COULD BRING IT HOME TO MASSACHUSETTS, WE HARDLY HAVE THE MOST SUN IN THE UNITED STATES AND YET SOLAR ADOPTION BECAUSE OF THE VOONG POLICIES HAT BEGAN UNDER GOVERNOR PATRICK, MASSACHUSETTS HAS ROWIN'LY BEEN IN THE TOP TEN OF SOLAR -- ROOFTOP SOLAR ADOPTION.

AND, SO, IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO GOVERNMENT STRATEGIES AND GOVERNMENT WILL TO DO IT.

>> Braude: YOU HAVE BEEN SPENDING ALMOST POUR DECADES OFF AND ON WITH THE PUFFINS -- FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T KNOW, HE USED TO BE A COCOLUMNIST FOR "THE GLOBE" IN YOUR EARLIER LIFE -- THE EFFORTS IN THE '70s AND BEYOND TO RESTORE HEM TO EXISTENCE AND PROSPERITY ALL FALL APART, HOW MUCH AT RISK ARE THEY?

>> WELL, I'LL TELL YOU THE STORY OF THE AFRICAN PENGUIN.

THE AFRICAN PENGUIN NUMBERED IN MILLIONS OF BIRDS AFTER COAST OF SOUTH AFRICA A COUPLE OF CENTURIES AGO.

AS RECENT AS 25 YEARS AGO, THEY WERE AT 250,000 PAIRS.

BUT BECAUSE OF POLLUTION, OVERFISHING AND CLIMATE CHANGE, THEY ARE NOW DOWN TO ABOUT 25,000 PAIRS IN THOSE COUNTRIES.

PUFFINS ARE AN EXTREMELY RESILIENT BIRD, THEY CATCH ALL KINDS OF FISH, AND AS MANY AS THE RESEARCHERS HAVE TOLD ME ON THESE ISLANDS, THE 20-SOMETHINGS HAT TAKE CARE OF THE BIRDS NOW, THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH DO WE WANT TO KEEP THROWING AT THE BIRDS.

>> Braude: UNDERSTOOD.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THE BIRDS, ONE OF HIS BEAUTIFUL BOOKS, CALLED "THE PUFFIN PLAN," IT'S HERE.

CHECK HIM OUT.

IT'S TERRIFIC AND MAKE THE CONNECTION DERRICK JACKSON IS MAKING FOR YOU.

REALLY APPRECIATE IT, DERRICK JACKSON.

FINALLY TONIGHT, REMEMBERING A LEGEND OF THE GBH FAMILY.

ERIC JACKSON DIED ON SATURDAY AT THE AGE OF 72.

HE'D BEEN WITH GBH SINCE 1977, HOSTING "ERIC IN THE EVENINGS" FOR MOST OF THAT TIME.

AND WHILE IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE THAT A GREATER DEPTH OF BOSTON JAZZ KNOWLEDGE YOU WILL NEVER FIND, MORE IMPORTANTLY, ACCORDING TO ALL WHO HAD THE GOOD FORTUNE TO KNOW HIM, A KINDER PERSON YOU WILL NEVER FIND, EITHER.

SO, IN HIS HONOR, I'D LIKE TO END THIS SHOW THE SAME WAY ERIC JACKSON BEGAN ALL OF HIS, WITH A BIT OF HORACE SILVER'S "PEACE," AS RECORDED BY TOMMY FLANAGAN.

(INSTRUMENTAL JAZZ) ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org