>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

PRESIDENT BIDEN LEADS WORLD LEADERS AT THE U.N.

SUMMIT.

WHAT WILL BE ACCOMPLISHED?

I SPEAK TO A KEY EU LEADER, IRELAND'S LEO VERODKA, AND PENNY WONG.

>>> THEN -- >> NO ONE EVER SAID THIS WAS GOING TO BE EASY, THE OFFENSIVE.

IT WAS CLEARLY STATED THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE A BLOODY, DIFFICULT, AND HARD OFFENSIVE.

>> WILL UKRAINE OVERWHELM THE AGENDA?

I ASK NATO SECRETARY GENERAL JENS STOLTENBERG WHO WARNS WE'RE IN FOR A LONG WAR.

>>> AND WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO FINANCIAL JOURNALIST DIANE HENRIQUES ABOUT HOW AMERICA'S FINANCIAL SECURITY IS ON THE BALLOT IN 2024.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

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KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR AT THE UNITED NATIONS IN NEW YORK, WHERE MORE THAN 100 WORLD LEADERS ARE GATHERING TO DISCUSS PRESSING WORLD ISSUES, FROM CLIMATE TO GRINDING POVERTY.

PRESIDENT BIDEN CALLED FOR COOPERATION IN THE FACE OF THESE CHALLENGES.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> MY FELLOW LEADERS, WE GATHER ONCE MORE AT AN INFLECTION POINT IN WORLD HISTORY.

WITH THE EYES OF THE WORLD UPON ALL OF YOU, ALL OF US, AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, I UNDERSTAND THE DUTY MY COUNTRY HAS TO LEAD IN THIS CRITICAL MOMENT, TO WORK WITH COUNTRIES IN EVERY REGION, LINKING THEM IN COMMON CAUSE TO JOIN TOGETHER WITH PARTNERS WHO SHARE A COMMON VISION OF THE FUTURE OF THE WORLD.

>> BUT THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN AND CHINESE PRESIDENT XI JINPING ARE MISSING IN ACTION HERE.

IN FACT, PRESIDENT BIDEN IS THE ONLY PRESIDENT AND LEADER OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL.

BUT PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY IS ALSO THERE.

BOTH OF THEM STAND TOGETHER AT THIS CRITICAL TIME AS AN ALLIANCE FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY.

THE UKRAINE WAR DOMINATES SO MUCH OF THE AGENDA HERE IN THE ASSEMBLY, IN THE HALLS AND THE CORRIDORS OF POWER.

IS IT SO DIVERTING FROM ATTENTION FROM OTHER PRIORITIES LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE OR PROMOTING GLOBAL EQUALITY?

IRELAND'S TOLD LEADERS WE ARE NOT WHERE WE NEED TO BE IN MEETING THESE SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FOR AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW OUTSIDE OF IRELAND.

I'M SURE YOU'RE SPEAKING TO YOUR OWN PRESS, BUT YOU'RE EXCLUSIVE TO US ON THE INTERNATIONAL FIELD.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO WELCOME.

I'M SURE I MISPRONOUNCED THE IRISH -- DID I GET IT RIGHT?

>> NO, NO.

>> OKAY.

SO I GUESS FIRST AND FOREMOST, DOES UKRAINE TAKE TOO MUCH OF THE ATTENTION, THE OXYGEN OUT OF THE OTHER MAJOR ISSUES THAT WE'VE LISTED THAT ARE CHALLENGES NOW FOR YOU AND EVERYBODY ELSE?

>> I THINK IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE THAT THE WORLD FACED A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT CHALLENGES.

AND THAT'S JUST THE NATURE OF THE WORLD WE LIVE IN.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IN UKRAINE, THOUGH, I THINK IS SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE THIS IS 2023, AND WE WANT THIS TO BE THE TIME WHEN WE SAY ONCE AND FOR ALL, THAT NO COUNTRY CAN INVADE AND TAKE THE TERRITORY OF ANOTHER, AND THAT NO COUNTRY CAN TRY TO CHANGE ANOTHER COUNTRY'S GOVERNMENT BY FORCE OR BY COUP.

PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID TODAY WHICH REALLY RESONATED WITH ME, THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT UKRAINE.

WHOSE INDEPENDENCE IS SAFE, WHOSE DEMOCRACY IS SAFE IF WE DON'T DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND AND SAY THUS FAR, NO FURTHER.

NEVER AGAIN.

>> HOW CAN YOU EXPLAIN SO MANY PEOPLE WANT TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION NO MATTER WHERE THEY COME FROM, THAT SO MANY OF THE LEADERS IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHO ARE STILL ON THE FENCE.

I KNOW THE VOTE CRITICIZED THE INVASION.

BUT THEY'RE STILL NOT WHOLEHEARTED 100% BEHIND UKRAINE'S SELF-DEFENSE.

>> I THINK THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS TO THAT.

THERE ARE SOME COUNTRIES THAT HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA, RECEIVE MILITARY OR FINANCIAL AID.

BUT THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF COUNTRIES IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH THAT FEEL THAT SOME EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE HYPOCRITICAL, GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED IN TERMS OF THE WAR IN IRAQ, OR GIVEN WHAT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE DONE AS PART OF THEIR COLONIAL ENTERPRISES SUPPORTING COUPS, FOR EXAMPLE.

WHAT I ALWAYS SAY TO THEM COMING FROM IRELAND, A COUNTRY THAT HAS NEVER HAD ANY COLONIES, A COUNTRY THAT HAD TO FIGHT FOR OUR OWN INDEPENDENCE, DON'T BLAME THE UKRAINIANS FOR WHAT OTHERS MAY HAVE DONE IN THE PAST.

WE SHOULD STAND BY THEM.

THEY'RE A COUNTRY FIGHTING FOR THEIR SOVEREIGNTY, THEIR DEMOCRACY, THEIR INDEPENDENCE.

THEY'RE JUST LIKE YOU.

>> DO YOU THINK YOUR PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE OF THE NATO ALLIANCE WHOSE LEADERS ARE GIVING ALL THIS SUPPORT, WILL THEY STAND FIRM?

>> I BELIEVE SO.

IRELAND ISN'T A MEMBER OF NATO, BUT WE ARE VERY MUCH AT THE HEART OF THE EUROPEAN UNION IN THE EUROZONE.

WE'RE GOING TO STAND BY UKRAINE FOR AS LISTENING AS IT TAKES.

>> DO YOU WANT TO BE PART OF NATO EVENTUALLY?

AND IF NOT, WHY NOT?

YOU'RE SO INVOLVED IN EVERY O ASPECT OF THIS.

OBVIOUSLY A MAIN MEMBER OF THE EU AND THIS WHOLE ALLIANCE THAT HAS REALLY GATHERED TO DEFEND GLOBAL DEMOCRACY SINCE THIS SECOND ILLEGAL RUSSIAN INVASION.

>> WELL, WE DO COOPERATE.

WE'RE UPDATING AT THIS A MOMENT AND A FOUNDER OF THE PESCO.

BUT WE'VE TAKEN A VIEW AS A COUNTRY, AS A SOCIETY, THAT NOT BEING A MEMBER OF A FORMAL MILITARY ALLIANCE LIKE NATO COMES WITH ADVANTAGES.

AND IN FACT WHEN IT DOES COME TO TALKING TO THE GLOBAL SOUTH, TALKING TO OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, THAT CAN MAKE SENSE FOR US TOO.

>> SO YOU FEEL THAT IRELAND'S KIND OF HISTORIC ROLE AS A BRIDGE-BUILDER IS MORE SIGNIFICANT AT THIS TIME?

>> I BELIEVE THE FACT THAT WE DON'T HAVE A MUTUAL DEFENSE PACT WITH ANY OTHER STATE ALLOWS US TO SPEAK TO COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD IN A WAY THAT WE OTHERWISE COULDN'T.

BUT WE VERY MUCH APPRECIATE THAT WE NEED TO TAKE MORE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR OWN SECURITY.

WE'RE INCREASING OUR DEFENSE BUDGET.

WE'RE WORKING WITH NATO.

WE'RE WORKING WITH THE EU, AND ALSO WE'RE A MAJOR CONTRIBUTOR TO U.N. PEACEKEEPING.

AND I THINK WHEN WE SERVE IN PLACES LIKE THE GOLAN OR LEBANON, THE FACT THAT WE ARE A NEUTRAL COUNTRY ACTUALLY DOES CARRY SOME WEIGHT AND DOES MATTER.

>> CLIMATE IS OBVIOUSLY HUGE ON YOUR AGENDA, TRYING TO REACH THE SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS OF REDUCING INEQUALITY AS WELL.

I SPOKE TO THE SECRETARY GENERAL GUTERRES JUST BEFORE THE OPENING SESSION, AND HE BASICALLY SAID A COUPLE OF THINGS, THAT AS SECRETARY GENERAL GENERAL, NO MATTER HOW LOUDLY HE SHOUTS ABOUT THIS ISSUE, HOW BIG A CONVENING POWER HE HAS, YOU KNOW, HE DOESN'T HAVE THE EXECUTIVE POWER.

HE DOESN'T HAVE THE MONEY.

AND EVEN TODAY IN THE MAJOR CLIMATE SESSION THAT HE'S HOSTING, PRESIDENT BIDEN WILL NOT BE THERE.

HOW HOPEFUL ARE YOU THAT THESE GOALS ARE GOING TO BE REACHED?

I MEAN, ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS LOOK AROUND WHAT HAPPENED THIS SUMMER.

>> I MET WITH THE SECRETARY GENERAL YESTERDAY AND I THINK THE U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL MUST BE A VERY DIFFICULT JOB BECAUSE YOU HAVE A LOT OF AUTHORITY, BUT NO REAL EXECUTIVE POWER.

AND ALL YOU CAN DO IS PLEAD WITH US TO DO MORE AND DO BETTER.

IRELAND COORDINATED WITH QATAR, THE CURRENT POLITICAL DECLARATION ON SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT GOALS, SOMETHING WE'RE VERY COMMITTED TO.

REALLY HASN'T BEEN ADEQUATE PROGRESS IN RECENT YEARS.

BUT JUST TO MENTION TWO AREAS OF PROGRESS THAT WE HAVE REALLY SEEN.

MOST COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, 146 COUNTRIES MEETING ITS TARGET FOR MORTALITY OF CHILDREN UNDER 5.

THINGS ARE REALLY IMPROVING WHEN IT COMES TO MORTALITY IN EARLY YEARS.

AND ALSO SINCE 2010, THE NUMBER OF AGE-RELATED DEATHS HAPPENING.

SO GLOBAL COOPERATION CAN WORK.

WE JUST NEED TO REDOUBLE OUR EFFORTS IN THE YEARS AHEAD.

>> BASICALLY, ONLY 15% OF TARGETS ARE ON TRACK.

THE DECLARATION READS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE FALLEN INTO POVERTY, HUNGER, MALNUTRITION AND ARE BECOMING MORE PREVALENT.

HUMANITARIAN NEEDS ARE RISING, THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ARE MORE PRONOUNCED.

THIS HAS LED TO INCREASED A SHORTFALL OF TRUST TO JOINTLY OVERCOME THESE CRISES.

YOU KNOW, WE HEAR THAT THE SHORTFALL OF TRUST, THE LACK OF FAITH IN INSTITUTIONS, WHETHER IT'S THAT ONE OR ANY OF YOUR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SO MUCH OF THE DISINTEGRATION OF THE JOINT PROJECT AND THE BELIEF IN A COMMON SET OF VALUES.

HOW MUCH OF A CHALLENGE IS THAT FOR YOU TO RECOGNIZE?

>> WELL, I DO RECOGNIZE IT.

BUT WE CAN NEVER GIVE UP HOPE, AND WE CAN NEVER STOP TRYING TO SET A MINIMUM STANDARD AROUND THE WORLD AS TO WHAT NO CITIZEN SHOULD HAVE TO EXPERIENCE NO MATTER WHERE THEY LIVE.

AND THAT'S THE SAME WHAT ALL ABOUT AROUND HEALTH, FREEDOM, INSTITUTIONS, MAKING SURE WE HAVE THOSE GLOBAL STANDARDS FOR EVERYONE AROUND THE WORLD.

I DO THINK OUR INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONS ARE OUT OF DATE.

THEY WERE FORMED AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

THE WORLD IS A DIFFERENT PLACE SINCE THEN.

AND IT WAS ENCOURAGING TO HEAR PRESIDENT BIDEN TALK ABOUT REFORMS, THE SECURITY COUNCIL HAVING MORE PERMANENT MEMBERS.

BUT THAT'S BEEN TALKED ABOUT FOR A LONG TIME.

AND I REALLY THINK WE OWE IT TO THE GLOBAL SOUTH TO SAY 70 OR 80 YEARS AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR, WE NEED INSTITUTIONS THAT REFLECT THE WORLD WE NOW LIVE IN, NOT THAT POST WAR WORLD WHICH IS ALMOST UNRECOGNIZABLE NOW.

>> NOW TO GO BACK TO YOUR OWN COUNTRY, YOU'VE RECENTLY SAID YOU BELIEVE THERE WILL BE A UNITED IRELAND IN YOUR LIFETIME, AND THE NORTHERN IRELAND SECRETARY BASICALLY CALLED YOU UNHELPFUL.

YOUR REACTION?

>> WELL, I REMEMBER WHEN WE VOTED FOR THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT IN IRELAND, WE DID IT BY REFERENDUM.

PASSED BY 97%, AND WE CHANGED OUR CONSTITUTION.

WE NO LONGER HAVE A TERRITORIAL CLAIM OVER NORTHERN IRELAND.

BUT WE DID ENSHRINE OUR CONSTITUTION AN ASPIRATION TO UNITY BY CONSENT, AND THAT'S SOMETHING I BELIEVE IN.

>> A FEW MONTHS AGO, THE WORLD WE ALL CELEBRATED THE 25th YEAR SINCE THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENTS.

WHEN YOU COME HERE AND YOU SEE THIS HUGE DIVISION BETWEEN LET'S SAY RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE POSSIBLE LESSONS FROM THE GOOD FRIDAY PEACE ACCORD, EVEN IN TODAY'S MOST FRACTIOUS CONFLICTS?

>> WELL, I THINK THE SITUATION BETWEEN UKRAINE AND RUSSIA IS A VERY DIFFERENT ONE TO WHAT WE WOULD HAVE EXPERIENCED IN IRELAND.

BUT I THINK WHAT IT DOES SHOW IS THAT PEACE IS ALWAYS POSSIBLE.

AND THAT YOU CAN NEVER GIVE UP ON RECONCILIATION.

BUT PEACE HAS TO BE A JUST PEACE.

AND I DON'T THINK THERE COULD BE ANY PEACE IN UKRAINE UNLESS IT'S DEMOCRACY, IT'S SECURITY, ITS SECURITY AND INTHE EGG I ARE PROTECTED.

>> SOME WOULD SAY IT'S KIND OF RISKING A ROW WITH THE BRITS, BUT THE NORTHERN IRELAND LEGACY BILL TODAY BECOMES LAW.

IT PREVENTS NEW PROSECUTIONS, FUTURE CIVIL CASES, INQUESTS INTO OFFENSES COMMITTED DURING THAT TIME.

GRANTS CERTAIN PEOPLE AMNESTY IF THEY CONFESS.

VERY CONTROVERSIAL, AND OPPOSED BY YOUR GOVERNMENT, ALSO BY ALL THE PARTIES IN NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE BRITISH LABOR PARTY, BY THE AMERICANS, BY THE EU LAWMAKERS.

FACING A LOT OF LEGAL CHALLENGES.

THIS IS WHAT BEN WALLACE, THE RECENTLY STEPPED DOWN BRITISH DEFENSE SECRETARY TOLD THIS PROGRAM ABOUT IT.

>> WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS IF PEOPLE WANT TO COME FORWARD AND WANT TO ENGAGE WITH INVESTIGATIONS, BE THEY TERRORIST OR EX-FORMER SECURITY FORCE PERSONNEL, THEN THEY HAVE POTENTIALLY THE ABILITY TO BE EFFECTIVELY FORGIVEN, TO BE GIVEN AN AMNESTY.

IF YOU DON'T COME FORWARD, IF YOU'RE AN IRA TERRORIST WHO REFUSES TO COOPERATE, YOU WILL STILL BE OPEN TO PROSECUTION.

INSTINCTIVELY, I WOULD SAY THAT THOSE TERRORISTS WHO KILLED MY SOLDIERS SHOULD FACE JUSTICE.

BUT I'M ALSO INTERESTED IN PEACE ON THE ISLAND OF IRELAND.

IN PEACE IN NORTHERN IRELAND.

>> SO HE THINKS IT'S A GREAT THING.

BUT YOU ALL DON'T.

>> YEAH.

WE PROFOUNDLY DISAGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT.

ESSENTIALLY, THIS NEW LAW WILL GIVE AN AMNESTY TO EX-BRITISH SERVICEMEN, FORMER LOYAL IRA AND TERRORISTS WHO MAY HAVE COMMITTED TERRIBLE CRIMES IN NORTHERN IRELAND, AND WE THINK IT'S THE WRONG APPROACH.

AND THE PEOPLE WE LISTEN TO MOST, THE VOICES WE HEAR MOST STRONGLY ARE THE SURVIVORS, PEOPLE WHO WERE INJURED IN THE TROUBLES AND ALSO THE FAMILY MEMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO DIED.

AND THEY ARE SAYING TO US THAT THIS IS THE WRONG APPROACH, AND THE IRISH GOVERNMENT AND THE FIVE MAIN PARTIES IN NORTHERN IRELAND REALLY THINK THIS IS THE WRONG APPROACH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, TAOISEACH LEO BRADLEY.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> NOW, OUTSIDE THIS CENTER OF DIPLOMACY, THERE IS A MAJOR DIPLOMATIC ROW BREWING AND HEATING UP BETWEEN CANADA AND INDIA.

THE TWO COUNTRIES ARE EXPELLING EACH OTHER'S DIPLOMATS AFTER THE CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU LINKED INDIA TO THE ASSASSINATION OF A SIKH LEADER ON ITS SOIL, ON CANADIAN SOIL.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> OVER THE COURSE OF THE SUMMER, WE HAVE BEEN WORKING CLOSELY WITH OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES WHO ARE MOVING FORWARD IN THEIR ANALYSIS.

WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAD SOLID GROUNDING IN UNDERSTANDING WHAT WAS GOING ON IN ANALYSIS, AND INDEED IN FACTS.

WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE WE WERE TAKING THE TIME TO TALK WITH OUR ALLIES, TO SHARE WHAT WE KNEW.

WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE FULLY SHARED WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA THE SERIOUSNESS AND THE DEPTHS OF OUR PREOCCUPATIONS AND INDEED CONCLUSIONS.

BUT CANADIANS HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW WHEN THINGS ARE GOING ON LIKE THIS.

AND THAT'S WHY WE MADE THE DECISION TO DO THIS.

>> WOOING INDIA AWAY FROM CHINA IS CENTRAL TO THE INDO-PACIFIC POLICY, AND CENTRAL TO THAT IS AUSTRALIA.

THE FOREIGN MINISTER PENNY WONG IS KEY TO RESHAPING THE BALANCE, AND SHE IS REJOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

WE SPOKE THIS TIME LAST YEAR.

>> WE DID.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> AND YOU TOO.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> AND 40 YEARS.

>> CONGRATULATIONS.

THAT'S IMPRESSIVE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> CONTRIBUTION TO INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

AND ONE FOR THE WOMEN.

HOW'S THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> LET'S GET BACK TO ALLEGATIONS OF MURDER ON CANADIAN SOIL BY THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT AS TO WHAT PRIME MINISTER TRUDEAU SAID.

THIS IS AN ACTIVIST.

INDIA HAS LABELED HIM A TERRORIST.

AS YOU KNOW, PRIME MINISTER MODI RECEIVED A VERY WARM WELCOME, A VERY WARM WELCOME AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

HE RECEIVED A VERY WARM WELCOME AT BASTILLE DAY IN FRANCE.

THE G20 WAS JUST HELD IN INDIA.

HOW TROUBLING IS THIS ALLEGATION, AND HOW DOES IT CAUSE YOU EITHER TO CALIBRATE OR NOT HOW CLOSELY TO HOLD MODI?

HOW TIGHTLY?

>> WELL, THE FIRST POINT I WOULD MAKE IS THESE ARE SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS, AND THEY ARE DEEPLY CONCERNING FOR ALL OF US.

I WOULD NOTE INVESTIGATIONS ARE STILL UNDER WAY.

SO I OBVIOUSLY AT THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT IS AWAIT THOSE INVESTIGATIONS BEING FINALIZED.

BUT WE'VE MADE OUR CONCERNS -- WE'VE CONVEYED OUR CONCERNS ABOUT THESE ALLEGATIONS, AND WE'LL KEEP ABREAST OF THE DEVELOPMENTS IN THESE INVESTIGATIONS.

>> CONVEY YOUR CONCERNS TO THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT?

>> WELL, WE HAVE A GENERAL PROPOSITION, DON'T WE, CHRISTIANE, WHICH IS AUSTRALIA HAS A FEW ABOUT THE RULE OF LAW AND WE WILL ALWAYS EXPRESS THAT VIEW.

>> PRIME MINISTER TRUDEAU SAID HE SPOKE TO ALL THE ALLIES ABOUT THIS BEFORE I GUESS HE MADE HIS PUBLIC STATEMENT.

DID HE SPEAK TO AUSTRALIA?

>> WELL -- >> YOUR COUNTERPART.

>> I WOULDN'T GO INTO DETAILS OF DIPLOMATIC ENGAGEMENTS, NOR DO YOU EXPECT ME TOO.

BUT WE HAVE EXPRESSED OUR VIEW ABOUT THESE ISSUES TO OUR INDIAN FRIENDS.

>> NOW ON THE BIGGER PICTURE, THEN, YOU KNOW, IT DEFINITELY LOOKS LIKE IT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HEARING FROM ALL OF YOU THAT INDIA, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO TRY TO PEEL INDIA AWAY FROM CLOSER RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA AND GOD FORBID RUSSIA.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING WELL?

AND HOW DOES THIS KIND OF THING, YOU KNOW, CAUSE A HURDLE OR AN OBSTACLE?

>> I THINK A WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT IS WE SHARE AN INTEREST IN A WORLD THAT IS PEACEFUL, STABLE AND PROCESS.

AND WHAT IS REQUIRED FOR THAT SORT OF WORLD IS A BALANCE OR A STRATEGIC EQUILIBRIUM TO WHICH ALL OF US HAVE TO MAKE A CONTRIBUTION.

AND INDIA IS A PART OF THAT, BUT SO TOO ARE OTHER COUNTRIES OF OUR REGION AND THE INDO-PACIFIC REGION, AND WE WILL CONTINUE AS AUSTRALIA TO WORK WITH A RANGE OF COUNTRIES TO CONTRIBUTE TO THAT EQUILIBRIUM, WHICH IS REALLY KEY TO MAKING SURE THERE IS A REGION AND A GLOBAL ORDER IN WHICH NO ONE COUNTRY DOMINATES, AND NO COUNTRY IS DOMINATED.

.

>> SO THAT OBVIOUSLY BRINGS US TO THE THREAT FROM CHINA, AS YOU PERCEIVE IT, THAT IT'S TRYING TO DOMINATE THAT REGION.

>> I THINK GREAT PALS DO WHAT GREAT PALACE DO.

I WOULDN'T USE THE LANGUAGE, BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY USE YOUR LANGUAGE.

>> HOW IS THE DETERRENCE WORKING, THEN?

>> IT SEEMS TO US THE WAY IN WHICH YOU CONTRIBUTE TO THAT STRATEGIC EQUILIBRIUM IS REALLY TO ENSURE YOU HAVE MILITARY DETERRENCE, ALSO ECONOMIC STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE, AS WELL AS DIPLOMATIC REASSURANCE.

SO ALL OF THOSE GO TO THAT BALANCE OR RESHAPING I THINK AS YOU DESCRIBED IT IN THE INTRODUCTION.

>> WHERE DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU ASSESS?

THERE IS A HUGE SORT OF DIFFERENCE OF OPINION OF HOW ONE IS MEANT TO DEAL WITH CHINA.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS GONE OUT OF HIS WAY TO SAY WE DON'T SEEK CONFLICT.

WE DON'T SEEK TO CONTAIN.

WE SEEK TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP BASED ON MUTUAL INTERESTS, BUT ALSO WE'RE NOT GOING GIVE OUT AND GIVE AWAY THE PACIFIC REGION BECAUSE WE'RE PACIFIC POWERS.

IS THAT MESSAGE GETTING ACROSS TO CHINA?

WE SEE, YOU KNOW, STRANGE DEVELOPMENTS.

THE FOREIGN MINISTER HAS BEEN SIDELINED.

THE DEFENSE MINISTER HAS DISAPPEARED FROM PUBLIC VIEW.

LOTS OF SHIFTS AT THE TOP OF THE CHINESE HIERARCHY.

HOW DO YOU READ WHAT'S GOING ON THERE?

IT IS INSCRUTABLE, BUT YOU MUST HAVE ANALYSIS.

>> LOOK, I'VE READ ON UNDISCLOSED DEVELOPMENTS, BUT OBVIOUSLY THEY'RE MATTERS FOR CHINA TO DEAL WITH.

BUT THE NUB OF YOUR QUESTION WENT TO THE MANAGEMENT OF COMPETITION.

AND WE WELCOME THE POSITION THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS TAKEN, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN REARTICULATED IT TODAY, WHICH WAS A COMMITMENT TO RESPONSIBLE MANAGEMENT OF COMPETITION.

BECAUSE WHAT WE DON'T WANT, NONE OF THE WORLD WANTS COMPETITION ESCALATING INTO CONFLICT.

AND I THINK POWERS LIKE AUSTRALIA, WE'RE A MIDDLE POWER, ALL OF THE POWERS THAT ARE REPRESENTED AT THE SOVEREIGN NATIONS WHICH REPRESENTED THE UNITED NATIONS HAVE A ROLE HERE TOO, WHICH IS TO URGE, ENCOURAGE, AND EXPECT THE GREAT POWERS TO MANAGE THEIR COMPETITION WISELY.

>> AND DO YOU THINK, DESPITE ALL THE WORRIES AROUND THAT IT IS CLOSER TO YOU SAY WE DON'T WANT WAR, WE DON'T WANT CONFLICT.

ARE WE TAKING THE STEPS AWAY FROM IT OR ARE WE TAKING STEPS TOWARDS IT?

THERE IS A LOT OF INFLAMMATORY RHETORIC ALL OVER.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WE ARE PROBABLY AT A GREATER RISK NOW OF CONFLICT THAN WE HAVE BEEN FOR MANY YEARS.

AND WE HAVE SAID THESE ARE THE RISKIEST STRATEGIC CIRCUMSTANCES THE WORLD HAS SEEN FOR MANY YEARS, AND THAT MEANS WE ALL HAVE TO ELEVATE OUR EFFORT.

WE ALL HAVE TO REDOUBLE OUR EFFORTS TO MANAGING, ENSURING THAT COMPETITION IS MANAGED, BUT ALSO TO DO WITH SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT ON YOUR PROGRAM.

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH INEQUALITY?

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH CLIMATE CHANGE?

THESE ARE ABOUT PEACE AND STABILITY AS WELL AS PROSPERITY, AND THEY ARE PART OF THE AGENDA THAT ALL NATIONS HAVE TO INCLUDE.

>> AND CLIMB CHANGE.

WE'VE HEARD YOU, THE SECRETARY GENERAL, WE'RE PRETTY MUCH THIS CLOSE TO MIDNIGHT, TO COIN A PHRASE.

YOU HAVE SAID CLIMATE IS THE NUMBER ONE NATIONAL SECURITY ISSUE FOR THE PACIFIC.

YOU VISITED MANY TIMES THE SOLOMON ISLANDS, ALL SORTS OF AREAS.

AND YET THE GOVERNMENT IS EXPANDING COAL MINING THIS YEAR.

A NEW ONE OPENED IN MAY, FACING LEGAL ACTION FROM GREEN GROUPS THIS WEEK.

CAN YOU HONESTLY SAY THAT YOUR RECORD ON CLIMATE IS IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION?

>> LOOK, AUSTRALIA HAS BEEN A VERY FOSSIL FEW INTENSIVE I MEAN, THAT IS THE REALITY.

SO PART OF WHAT WE ARE HAVING TO DO IS TO TRANSITION, YOU KNOW, VERY CARBON INTENSIVE ECONOMY TO A CLEAN ENERGY ECONOMY.

AND THAT IS A BIG TASK.

IN MANY WAYS, IT REFLECTS THE TASK THAT THE GLOBAL ECONOMY HAS TO ENGAGE IN.

BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THERE ARE STILL MANY NATIONS WHO ARE OPENING NEW COAL-FIRED POWER STATIONS, WHO ARE GOING DOWN THAT PATH.

SO WE HAVE A VERY AMBITIOUS STATE OF TARGETS.

WE WILL BE BY 2030 IN EXCESS.

WHAT I SAY TO THE PACIFIC AND I HAVE VISITED EVERY MEMBER OF THE PACIFIC ISLANDS FORUM IS LOOK, WE RECOGNIZE OUR HISTORY AND THE NATURE OF OUR ECONOMY.

WHAT I CAN SAY TO YOU IS WE ARE GENUINELY MOTIVATED TO CHANGE THAT, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE WORKING ON.

>> CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT -- TALKING ABOUT HISTORY.

THERE IS A VOICE TO PARLIAMENT REFERENDUM COMING UP IN ABOUT THREE WEEKS.

AUSTRALIANS WILL VOTE.

>> YEAH.

>> TO PUT POTENTIALLY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN THE CONSTITUTION AND SET UP AN ADVISORY BODY TO GIVE THEM VOICE.

>> YEAH.

>> BECAUSE THEY DON'T VISIT ON THE POLICIES THAT AFFECT THEM.

BUT POLLS SHOW THAT SUPPORT IS LOW, AROUND 45%.

A, DO YOU THINK IT WILL PASS?

B, IF IT DOESN'T, WHAT DOES IT SAY TO THE WORLD ABOUT AUSTRALIA'S COMMITMENT TO INDIGENOUS, ESPECIALLY AT THIS TIME WHEN ALL COUNTRIES ARE TRYING TO RECKON WITH IT?

>> WE'VE HAD, LIKE SO MANY COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD, A JOURNEY WHEN IT COMES TO RECONCILIATION WITH OUR FIRST NATIONS PEOPLE, WITH UP ON INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

A JOURNEY -- WE'VE HAD MANY STATES.

WE HAVE THE REFERENDUM IN 1967 WHICH CHANGED OUR CONSTITUTION FOR THE BETTER.

WE'VE HAD THE APOLOGY TO THE STOLEN GENERATIONS, WHICH WAS GIVEN BY THE LABOR PRIME MINISTER AND AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER AND N THE GOVERNMENT IN WHICH I SERVED.

THIS IS ANOTHER IMPORTANT STEP.

IT IS REFERENDUM, HARD TO WIN IN AUSTRALIA BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF HOW OUR VOTING ON WHAT IS REQUIRED TO CHANGE THE CONSTITUTION.

BUT WE REMAIN HOPEFUL AND WE REMAIN LOOKING AT THE FUTURE.

WE REMAIN FOCUSED ON THE FUTURE.

BECAUSE ULTIMATELY, THIS IS ABOUT THAT FUTURE AND WHETHER OR NOT WE CAN HAVE A FUTURE IN WHICH INDIGENOUS AND NONINDIGENOUS CAN WALK TOGETHER.

>> I GUESS ONE LAST QUESTION ABOUT THE BIG PICTURE OF CHINA.

HOW DO YOU ASSESS THE RUSSIAN, NORTH KOREA, CHINA, IRAN, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT ALLIANCE, ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, ANTI-U.S. ALLIANCE?

AND HOW MUCH DOES IT SET BACK YOUR ATTEMPTS TO DETER CHINA?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE FIRST THAT MR. PUTIN REACHING OUT TO NORTH KOREA FOR EXAMPLE SHOWS A DEGREE OF DESPERATION.

THE SECOND POINT I'D MAKE IN THE RELATIONS OF THE WORLD WHO ARE NOT SUPERPOWER, AND WE'RE NOT ONE OF THEM, NEED TO COLLECTIVELY CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE, ENCOURAGE, URGE, PERHAPS PUT SOME COLLECTIVE PRESSURE ON GREAT POWER TOES ACT RESPONSIBLY.

THAT'S WHAT WE'LL CONTINUE TO DO.

>> THIS IS THE PLACE TO DO IT.

>> THIS IS THE PLACE TO DO IT.

>> EVEN THOUGH A LOT OF THEM AREN'T HERE.

>> WELL, I DID HEAR YOUR INTERVIEW WITH THE SECRETARY GENERAL YESTERDAY, ACTUALLY, AND I WOULD MAKE THE POINT THERE IS NO PLACE IN THE WORLD WHERE WE HAVE THIS CONVENING POWER, WHERE WE HAVE THIS HIGH LEVEL OF REPRESENTATIONS AND WHERE WE CAN DEAL WITH ALL OF THE ISSUES THAT MATTER TO US.

>> AND IF ANYBODY IS HEARING THE NOISE OUTSIDE, THAT'S THE CONVENING CORNER FOR OPPONENTS OF ALL SORTS OF GOVERNMENTS WHO ARE REPRESENTED HERE.

>> DEMOCRACY IN ACTION.

>> INDEED.

JUST TO EXPLAIN THE NOISE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> GOOD TO SPEAK WITH YOU AGAIN.

>> THIS IS NOW THE SECOND U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY WHERE IT IS SLIGHTLY OVERSHADOWED BY RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE, AND NATO SECRETARY GENERAL JENS STOLTENBERG SAYS IT MAY NOT BE THE LAST.

I SPOKE WITH HIM ABOUT HIS WARNING TO BRACE FOR A LONG WAR.

SECRETARY GENERAL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> SO YOU HAVE JUST SAID THIS IS GOING TO BE A LONG WAR, THAT IT'S A LOT LONGER THAN ANYBODY ACCOUNTED FOR.

ARE YOU SURE THAT THE WORLD'S SUPPORT WILL LAST FOR THIS LONG WAR?

>> WHAT I SAID IS WE NEED TO BE PREPARED FOR A LONG WAR, FOR A LISTENING HAUL.

NOBODY KNOWS HOW LONG THIS WAR WILL LAST.

WARS ARE BY NATURE UNPREDICTABLE.

BUT BRUTE REALITY IS THEY TEND TO LAST LONGER THAN WE EXPECT WHEN THEY START.

SAND WE HAVE TO SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE TO MOSCOW THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN CANNOT WAIT THOSE OUT.

WE NEED TO BE THERE FOR AS LONG AS IT TAKES.

AND THEN THAT'S THE MESSAGE I THINK.

>> DO YOU THINK HE WOULD SEE HIS MIND CONCENTRATED MORE IF THERE WAS MORE HELP GIVEN TO UKRAINE?

WE DO KNOW, AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT ALL YOU HAVE GIVEN AS THE NATO ALLIANCE.

BUT SOME OF IT HAS BEEN LATE.

SOME OF IT HAS BEEN NO, NO, NO, YES.

SOME OF IT HASN'T COME IN TIME FOR THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO MAKE PUTIN REALLY UNDERSTAND THAT HE CAN'T JUST WAIT YOU OUT?

>> SO FIRST OF ALL, WE NEED TO SEND THE MESSAGE THAT WE WILL CONTINUE TO BE THERE, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE COMMUNICATING.

SECOND, WE NEED TO BACK UP THAT WITH REAL ACTION.

AND PRESIDENT PUTIN MADE AT LEAST TWO BIG STRATEGIC MISTAKES WHEN HE INVADED UKRAINE.

ONE WAS TO TOTALLY UNDERESTIMATE THE UKRAINIANS TO ENCOURAGE THE BRAVERY, BUT THE OTHER STRATEGIC MISTAKE PRESIDENT PUTIN MADE WAS TO UNDERESTIMATE US, NATO ANALYSTS AND PARTNERS.

THE COMMITMENT WE HAVE DEMONSTRATED IN DELIVERING SUPPORT TO UKRAINE IS SOMETHING HE DIDN'T EXPECT.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT.

WE CAN DISCUSS THE SPECIFIC PLATFORMS, BUT THE OVERALL MESSAGE WOULD BE SUBSTANTIAL MILITARY SUPPORT.

>> ARE YOU CONCERNED WITH THIS LATEST VISIT BETWEEN PUTIN AND KIM JONG-UN WHERE PUTIN VERY CONSPICUOUSLY SHOWED KIM ALL AROUND THE RELEVANT MILITARY FACTORIES AND THE LIKE, AND THERE IS A FEAR THAT HE MIGHT TRANSFER TECHNOLOGY AND VICE VERSA?

ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THAT?

>> YES, OF COURSE.

ANY SUPPORT TO RUSSIA'S ILLEGAL WAR IS A BAD THING, IS A BLATANT VIOLATION OF THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION.

>> DO YOU THINK THEY'LL DO IT?

>> THERE IS AT LEAST AN OBVIOUS RISK.

WHAT IT DEMONSTRATES IS THAT RUSSIA IS ISOLATED.

THEY HAVE TO GO TO NORTH KOREA AND IRAN TO GET WEAPONS, AMMUNITION AND SUPPLIES.

AND ANY SUPPORT FROM ANY OF THESE COUNTRIES WOULD VIOLATE PRINCIPLES OF THE U.N. CHARTER.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BATTLE GOING ON RIGHT NOW, HOW DESPERATE DO YOU THINK PUTIN IS IN TERMS OF MATERIEL?

>> HE EXPECTED THIS WAR TO LAST A FEW WEEKS OR DAYS, AND THAT WAS A BIG, BIG MISTAKE.

SO HE HADN'T PLANNED FOR ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THAT UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PUSH THEM BACK IN THE NORTH AROUND KEEFE, IN THE EAST OF KHARKIV AND THE SOUTH AROUND KHERSON.

AND NOW THEY'RE CONDUCTING OFFENSIVE WHERE THEY'RE GRADUALLY GAINING GROUND.

IF YOU WANT PEACE IN UKRAINE AND LASTING AND JUST PEACE, THE ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE THAT IS MILITARY SUPPORT TO UKRAINE.

THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO CONVINCE PUTIN THEY WILL NOT WIN ON THE BATTLEFIELD, BUT HAS TO SIT DOWN AND NEGOTIATE.

WHAT UKRAINE CAN ACHIEVE AROUND THE NEGOTIATING TABLE IS ABSOLUTELY TO THEIR STRENGTH ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

>> AS YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF AMERICANS, SOME CALL THEM ARMCHAIR WARRIOR, MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKERS WHO HAVE BEEN BASICALLY CRITICIZING THE PACE OF THE UKRAINIAN COUNTEROFFENSIVE, AND NOW GENERAL MILLIE, THE OUTGOING TOP AMERICAN GENERAL SAYS UKRAINE PRETTY MUCH HAS ABOUT 30 TO 45 DAYS OF GOOD FIGHTING WEATHER LEFT THIS SEASON.

DO YOU SEE IT LIKE THAT?

AND HOW DO YOU SEE THE RAMPING UP OR THE SOLIDIFYING OF WHATEVER GAINS THEY MIGHT HAVE MADE?

>> I THINK EVERYONE WOULD HAVE HOPED FOR MORE ADVANCES, AND MORE QUICKLY, SPEEDY LIBERATION OF UKRAINIAN TERRITORY.

AT THE SAME TIME, IT'S EXTREME LY DIFFICULT, THE WRONG THING TO DO TO SIT IN BRUSSELS OR NEW YORK AND TELL THE COMMANDERS, THE SOLDIERS ON THE BATTLEFIELD EXACTLY WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.

THIS IS THEIR WAR.

THEY ARE PAYING THE PRICE OF LOST SOLDIERS' LIVES, AND THEY HAVE TO MAKE THE DIFFICULT DECISIONS.

OUR MESSAGE AND WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO SUPPORT THEM AND THEN THEY HAVE TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

>> AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SPOKE TO AN AMERICAN BROADCASTER, "60 MINUTES" AHEAD OF THIS TRIP, AND HE TALKED ABOUT TAKING THE WAR INTO RUSSIA.

AND AS WE'VE SEEN, IT'S BEEN HAPPENING MORE AND MORE, CERTAINLY WITH DRONES AND OTHER SUCH THINGS.

HE SAID, AND I'M GOING TO PARAPHRASE, IF THEY CUT OFF OUR ELECTRICITY, IF THEY ATTACK OUR CIVILIANS AND OUR INFRASTRUCTURE, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO EXPECT US TO DO THE SAME THING.

IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING AS A POTENTIAL NEXT PHASE OF THIS WAR, IT WILL BE TAKEN MORE AND MORE INTO RUSSIA?

>> I THINK WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND IS WHAT THIS IS.

THIS IS A WAR OF AGGRESSION, A WAR OF CHOICE BY PRESIDENT PUTIN AND RUSSIA.

THEY INVADE ANOTHER COUNTRY THAT IN NO WAY WAS A THREAT TO THEM.

AND UKRAINE HAS THE RIGHT FOR SELF-DEFENSE.

THAT'S ALSO ENSHRINED IN THE U.N. CHARTER.

AND THEREFORE THEY DEFEND THEMSELVES.

THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

AND WE HELP THEM TO UPHOLD THAT RIGHT.

>> SO YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SAY YES OR NO THAT THEY SHOULD TAKE IT INTO RUSSIA.

BUT I KIND OF HEAR YOU.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

PRESIDENT OF FINLAND, THE OUTGOING PRESIDENT HAS ALSO GIVEN AN INTERVIEW, BASICALLY, AND I KNOW HE IS THE LATEST MEMBER OF NATO, WARNING YOU ALL ABOUT PUTIN'S INTENTIONS, AND WARNING YOU THAT, YOU KNOW, EVEN THE NUCLEAR OPTION PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO STOP BRANDISHING THAT AROUND.

AS THE NEXT PHASE OF THIS WAR, OR THE LONGEVITY OF THIS WAR STARTS TO SET IN, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM PUTIN?

>> WELL, WE SHOULD NEVER UNDERESTIMATE RUSSIA AND WHAT PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS DEMONSTRATED IS THAT HE'S WILLING TO SACRIFICE RUSSIAN PEOPLE IN THE UNJUST EFFORT TO CONQUER A NEIGHBOR COUNTRY.

THEN ON THE NUKE RHETORIC WHAT WE HAVE SEEN FROM THE RUSSIAN SIDE IS DANGEROUS.

WE'VE SEEN AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT THE NUCLEAR WAR CANNOT BE WON AND SHOULD NEVER BE FOUGHT AND WHY WE HAVE INCREASED OUR EASTERN PRESENCE IN THE ALLIANCE ONE IS TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AND THE OTHER IS TO PREVENT ESCALATION TO FULL-SCALE WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA AND NATO.

AND WE'VE DONE THAT BY INCREASING OUR PRESENCE IN THE EASTERN ALLIANCE.

>> PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS HERE NOT ONLY TO APPEAL TO THE REST OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY, LIKE THE GLOBAL SOUTH WHO ARE NOT NECESSARILY ON BOARD.

THEY STILL STRADDLE THE DEFENSE, AND ALSO TO PERSUADE THE AMERICAN CONGRESS THAT THIS IS A WAR THAT THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO KEEP HELPING THEM WITH.

HE'S DONE A CLEANOUT OF HIS MINISTRY OF DEFENSE.

YOU KNOW, TAKEN ON CORRUPTION, TRYING TO PROVE THAT EVERYTHING YOU'VE GIVEN WILL BE USED FOR THE RIGHT PURPOSES.

DID HE NEED TO DO THAT BEFORE COMING HERE?

>> PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS DEMONSTRATED AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT FIGHTING CORRUPTION IS A TOP PRIORITY.

THAT WAS A TOP PRIORITY FOR HIM BEFORE THE WAR, AND IT CONTINUES TO BE DURING THE WAR.

AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK THEY HAVE DEMONSTRATED TO WHAT THEY HAVE ACHIEVED THAT OUR SUPPORT ACTUALLY REACHES THE FRONT LINES.

THAT THE SUPPORT WE GIVE MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

BECAUSE WE NEED TO REMEMBER THAT MANY EXPERTS BELIEVED THAT THEY WILL LOSE THIS WAR WITHIN WEEKS.

THEY'RE STARTING TO REALLY PUSH BACK THE RUSSIANS FROM BIG PARTS OF UKRAINIAN TABLE.

RISKS YOU SATISFIED IN YOU BELIEVE THEY'RE PUSHING THEM BACK IN A SIGNIFICANT WAY?

>> I'M IMPRESSED BY THE COURAGE, BY THE DETERMINATION OF THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES, BY THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE, AND ALSO BY THE UKRAINIAN POLITICAL LEADERSHIP OF PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.

BUT OF COURSE WE ALL WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE ADVANCES AND EVEN QUICKER ADVANCES.

BUT, AGAIN, WARS ARE DIFFICULT AND NO ONE CAN PREDICT EXACTLY THE TIME IT WILL TAKE FOR THEM TO LIBERATE THE COUNTRY.

>> YOU STILL THINK AS LONG AS IT TAKES, NATO WILL STICK WITH THEM?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND I THINK IT WOULD BE A TRAGEDY FOR UKRAINIANS.

>> YEP.

>> IF PRESIDENT PUTIN WINS.

BUT IT WILL ALSO BE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS FOR US, BECAUSE THEN THE MESSAGE TO PRESIDENT PUTIN, BUT ALSO TO OTHER AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS, NOT THE LEAST CHINA IS WHEN THEY VIOLATE INTERNATIONAL LAW, WHEN THEY INVADE A NEIGHBOR, THEY GET WHAT THEY WANT, AND THAT WILL MAKE US MORE VULNERABLE.

THAT'S THE REASON WHY I OF COURSE WELCOME THE U.N.

LEADERSHIP, THE U.S. SUPPORT, BUT ALSO THAT EUROPEAN ALLIES AND CANADA PROVIDING BILLIONS OF SUPPORT AND WEAPONS AND ECONOMIC SUPPORT TO UKRAINE.

SO THIS IS ACTUALLY NORTH AMERICA AND EUROPE STANDING TOGETHER IN PROTECTING OUR OWN SECURITY IN SHOWING THAT PRESIDENT PUTIN -- >> VERY QUICKLY, HOW DO YOU THINK THE MUCH DELAYED FIGHTER JETS WILL AFFECT THE BATTLEFIELD?

AND DO YOU NOT THINK THAT WITHOUT THIS KIND OF WEAPONRY, IT JUST SIGNALS TO THE KREMLIN THAT YOU ARE SORT OF NOT DOING IT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE AS A UKRAINIAN OFFICIAL HAS SAID?

>> I THINK THE FIGHTER JETS OF COURSE WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

IT WILL GIVE THEM STRONGER AIR DEFENSES, MORE AIR COVER.

BUT IT ALSO SIGNALS ANOTHER IMPORTANT THING.

IT SIGNALS THE READINESS OF NATO ALLIES TO BE THERE FOR THE LONG HAUL, BECAUSE THIS IS A COMPLICATED A ADVANCED WEAPON SYSTEM.

IT WILL TAKE TIME TO TRAIN, AND THEREFORE IT ALSO SENDS A MESSAGE OF COMMITMENT TO STAY FOR LONG HAUL.

AND THE PARADOX IS THAT THE CLEARER WE ARE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE THAT WE ARE ABLE TO BE THERE FOR A LONG TIME, THE SOON THEIR WAR CAN DEPEND.

>> SECRETARY GENERAL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANKS MUCH.

>> SO THAT'S CLEAR.

AND NOW MANY SPEAK OF A NEW DEAL TYPE REBUILD FOR POST WAR UKRAINE.

SO NEXT WE TAKE A LOOK BACK AT THE 1930s IN AMERICA AND THE EXTRAORDINARY STORY OF HOW PRESIDENT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT ACCOMPLISHED THE NEW DEAL.

HIS PLAN TO END THE ECONOMIC DAMAGES OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

THAT IS THE FOCUS OF THE NEW BOOK "TAMING THE STREET: THE OLD GUARD, THE NEW DEAL, AND FDR'S FIGHT TO REGULATE AMERICAN CAPITALISM."

AUTHOR AND FINANCIAL JOURNALIST DIANE HENRIQUES JOINS COLLEAGUES WALTER ISAACSON TO TALK ABOUT THE BENEFITS THAT AMERICANS STILL REAP TODAY BECAUSE OF THE NEW DEAL.

>> THANK YOU.

AND DIANE HENRIQUES, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, WALTER.

>> THIS NEW BOOK, "TAMING THE STREET," IT'S A WILD RIDE ABOUT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT AND HIS REGULATION OF THE SECURITIES INDUSTRY.

BUT ONE THING I LIKED WAS HOW YOU HAVE TO START WITH THE JAZZ AGE.

YOU HAVE TO START IN THE 1920S TO GET WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT.

TELL ME WHY 100 YEARS AGO, WE WERE LAYING THE GROUNDWORK FOREWHAT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT HAD TO DO.

>> WELL, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT THAT WAS THE WORLD OF WALL STREET, THAT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT AND HIS NEW DEAL ALLIES GREW UP WITH.

THAT'S THE WORLD THEY KNEW, THE WORLD OF THE 1920s.

AND IT WAS NOT A SAFE PLACE FOR ORDINARY AMERICAN INVESTORS.

STOCK MARKET PRICES WERE ROUTINELY RIGGED.

BONDS AND STOCKS WERE SOLD WITH DECEPTIVE MATERIAL, FALSE PROMISES.

BANKS FAILED WITH GREAT REGULARITY, AND WHEN THEY FAILED, YOU LOST ALL YOUR SAVINGS ALMOST OVERNIGHT.

MUTUAL FUNDS, THE MAINSTAY OF OUR CURRENT INVESTMENT LIFE WERE BASICALLY PRIVATE PIGGY BANKS FOR THE BROKERAGE FIRMS THAT SPONSORED THEM.

THAT WAS THE WORLD THAT FDR KNEW.

BEYOND THE WORLD OF WALL STREET, THOUGH, IT WAS A WORLD OF ALMOST SEAMLESS CORRUPTION, WALTER.

>> YOU KNOW, THESE RESPECTABLE LAW BREAKERS, AS THEY SEEM TO BE IN THE BOOK, THE ONES WHO WERE DOING ALL THAT FINANCIAL SHENANIGANS, THEY SEEM TO SORT OF BE THE CLOSE COUSINS, ALMOST THE IMAGE OF SOME OF THE RUM RUNNERS AND GANGSTERS AND SCOUNDRELS OF THE JAZZ AGE.

>> THEY DID.

IN FACT, IT WAS SOME JOURNALIST WAG WHO TERMED THEM "BANKSTERS" INSTEAD OF GANGSTERS.

AND THAT NAME, UNFORTUNATELY, STUCK.

>> HOW IMPORTANT WAS THE SHENANIGANS IN CAUSING THE GREAT CRASH OF 1929?

>> THE PUNDITS OF THE DAY THOUGHT THAT THE STOCK MARKET CRASH WOULD BE A NONEVENT FOR ORDINARY AMERICANS BECAUSE VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF THEM OWNED STOCKS.

THE STOCK MARKET HAD BECOME IN THE JAZZ AGE QUITE THE POPULAR GATE.

IT WAS COVERED IN THE NEWSPAPERS, AND ALL THE CELEBRITIES HAD THEIR FAVORITE STOCKS.

BUT ORDINARY AMERICANS WERE NOT DEEPLY INVOLVED IN TERMS OF HAVING THEIR WEALTH AT RISK IN THE STOCK MARKET.

BUT WHAT THOSE PUNDITS HAD NOT ALLOWED FOR WAS THE FEAR THAT WOULD INDUCE PEOPLE TO START TIGHTENING THEIR BELT FROM THE VERY TOP LEVEL RIGHT ON DOWN.

SO IT'S RICH PEOPLE STOP SPENDING, THEY STOPPED HIRING MAIDS.

THEY STOPPED BUYING LUXURY PRODUCTS.

THEY CANCELED THE ORDER ON THE NEW CONDO.

THEY SHRUNK THEIR SPENDING, AND THAT RIPPLED DOWN IN A VICIOUS CIRCLE, DOWN TO THE LOWLIEST OF AMERICANS.

>> HOW MUCH DID FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT'S TIME AS THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK HELP LAY THE GROUNDWORK FOR WHAT HE DOES WITH THE NEW DEAL?

>> WELL, I LAY OUT IN "TAMING THE STREET" SOME OF HIS REALLY INSTRUCTIVE FOXHOLE EXPERIENCES AS HE WAS GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK.

HE PRESIDED OVER IN DECEMBER OF 1930 WHAT WAS THEN THE LARGEST BANK FAILURE IN U.S. HISTORY, THE EIGHTH LARGEST BANK IN THE COUNTRY, A BANK CALLED THE BANK OF UNITED STATES IN NEW YORK CITY.

FAILED ALMOST OVERNIGHT, DESPITE DESPERATE EFFORTS BY ROOSEVELT'S BANKING SUPERINTENDENT AND HIS LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR, HERBERT CLEMAN TO TRY TO RESCUE THE BANK.

AND WHEN IT FAILED, THE DAMAGE IT DID TO SMALL MERCHANTS ALL THROUGH THE GARMENT INDUSTRY IN NEW YORK CITY AND BEYOND WAS DEVASTATING.

AND THAT EXPERIENCE WAS A SHOCK.

IT WAS A WAKE-UP CALL TO FDR.

PREVIOUS TO THAT, HE HAD PRESIDED OVER TWO OTHER BANK FAILURES MUCH SMALLER, BUT HE HAD KIND OF LET THE BANKING INTERESTS WHO CONTROLLED THE LEGISLATURE IN ALBANY PERSUADE HIM THAT BANKERS COULD REGULATE THEMSELVES, NO GREAT CHANGES IN LAWS WERE NEEDED.

AND IF HE YOU WOULD JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE, THEY'D WORK THIS OUT.

SO WHEN THE BANK OF UNITED STATES FAILED, IT WAS SPLASH OF COLD WATER IN THE FACE THAT SHOWED HIM NO, MORE WAS NEEDED.

>> IN 1932, HE RUNS FOR PRESIDENT, TOUTING HIS NEW DEAL POLICIES.

IT'S AFTER THE STOCK MARKET CRASH AND AFTER ITS NOW IGNITED WHAT BECOMES THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

YOU WRITE MAINLY ABOUT HIS REGULATION OF THE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY.

HOW IMPORTANT WAS THAT TYPE OF PROMISES TO HIS 1932 CAMPAIGN, OR DID PEOPLE QUITE GET THE NEED FOR FINANCIAL REGULATION?

>> WELL, I THINK IN MY THESIS, IN THE BOOK IS THAT THESE FINANCIAL REFORMS WERE THE HEART AND SOUL OF THE NEW DEAL AS ROOSEVELT PRESENTED IT IN THE CAMPAIGN OF 1932 AND IN 1936 AS WELL WHEN HE RAN FOR REELECTION ON THE STRENGTH OF WHAT HE'D DONE.

AND HE LAID OUT THE SPECIFIC FINANCIAL REFORMS THAT HE INTENDED TO IMPLEMENT.

THERE IS A LOT OF CONVENTIONAL WISDOM THAT NO ONE REALLY KNEW WHAT HE PLANNED TO DO IN THE NEW DEAL.

HE WAS KIND OF VAGUE, AND REALLY, ALL HE HAD TO DO IS NOT BEAT PRESIDENT HERBERT HOOVER AND HE WOULD GET ELECTED.

BUT THE EVIDENCE FROM THE NEWSPAPER COVERAGE OF HIS CAMPAIGN DOES NOT SUPPORT THAT AT ALL.

HE WAS EXPLICIT.

HE WAS GOING TO REGULATE STOCK EXCHANGES.

HE WAS GOING IMPROVE THE REGULATION OF BANKS.

HE WAS GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT SECURITIES WERE SOLD WITH HONESTY AND TRUTH, NOT WITH DECEPTION.

HE WAS GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT GIANT HOLDING COMPANIES COULDN'T STUFF ALL SORTS OF OVERHEAD COSTS ON THE BACKS OF THEIR CONSUMERS.

HE WAS VERY EXPLICIT.

SO I THINK BECAUSE OF SO MUCH THAT HAPPENED IN ROOSEVELT'S CAREER AS PRESIDENT, ONE OF THE MOST EVENTFUL PROBABLY IN THIS COUNTRY'S HISTORY, THE ROLE OF FINANCIAL REFORM IN THE VERY EARLY DAYS OF HIS CAMPAIGNING AND OF HIS PRESIDENCY HAS BEEN KIND OF OBSCURED.

AND PART OF WHAT I WANTED TO DO WITH THIS BOOK WAS CORRECT THAT, TO SHOW HOW CENTRAL FINANCIAL REFORM WAS TO ROOSEVELT'S THINKING.

AND FOR A VERY GOOD REASON, WALTER, THAT IS STILL RELEVANT TODAY.

HE WAS FIRMLY CONVINCED THAT A HEALTHY DEMOCRACY REQUIRED A HEALTHY ECONOMY.

>> ONE OF THE COLORFUL CHARACTERS IN YOUR BOOK, OF COURSE, IS JOSEPH KENNEDY, THE FATHER OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY AND SENATOR KENNEDY, AND SORT OF INTERTWINES QUITE A BIT WITH THE LIFE OF FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT RELATIONSHIP AND WHAT JOSEPH KENNEDY SAW IN FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT.

>> WELL, IT WAS -- I AGREE A STRANGE KIND OF RELATIONSHIP.

THERE IS NOTHING ON THE SURFACE OF IT THAT MADE IT LOOK PLAUSIBLE.

JOE KENNEDY WAS A BUCCANEER.

HE WAS A SWASHBUCKLING SPECULATOR WHO WAS COMMITTING MANY OF THE CRIMES THAT FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT LATER WANTED TO ELIMINATE.

BUT HE SAW IN ROOSEVELT THE MAN FOR A MOMENT.

AND THE MOMENT THAT JOE KENNEDY SAW AND PERHAPS MORE CLEARLY BECAUSE OF THE WORLD HE OCCUPIED WAS AN AMERICA THAT WAS JUST TO BE COME APART BETWEEN THE ANGRY DEMANDS ON THE LEFT, A RISING INTEREST IN COMMUNISM AND SOCIALISM, AND EVEN SCARIER, FORCES ON THE RIGHT, PEOPLE WHO WERE LOOKING AT FASCIST AUTHORITIES IN GERMANY AND IN ITALY SAYING HMM, MAYBE THAT'S WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW, STAMP OUT THESE LABOR UNIONS, GET BUSINESS IN CHARGE.

AND KENNEDY SAW ALL OF THAT AS ADDING UP TO A TIME OF PERHAPS TERMINAL UNREST IN THE UNITED STATES.

HE FELT IT WAS ESSENTIAL THAT DEMOCRACY SHOW IT COULD WORK IN THIS MOMENT.

IT COULD ADDRESS THIS ECONOMIC CRISIS.

HE SAID ONCE "I DECIDED IN THOSE DAYS I WOULD GIVE HALF OF WHAT I HAD TO BE ABLE TO ENJOY THE OTHER HALF UNDER LAW AND ORDER."

HE FELT THAT THE SOCIETY WAS FALLING APART AND THAT ROOSEVELT WAS THE MAN WHO COULD FIX IT.

>> SO ROOSEVELT IN ONE OF HIS EARLY ACTS CREATES A SECURITY AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION, A KEY THING IN YOUR BOOK.

SO THEN THE S.E.C.

TO RUN IT, HE APPOINTS JOE KENNEDY.

IT'S LIKE JOE KENNEDY WAS A STOCK SPECULATOR.

>> RIGHT.

>> WASN'T THAT LIKE PUTTING THE FOX IN CHARGE OF THE HEN HOUSE?

>> WASHINGTON EXPLODE, WALTER.

IT ABSOLUTELY EXPLODE.

THERE WERE SOME JOURNALISTS WHO SAID I DON'T BELIEVE IT, I JUST DON'T BELIEVE THAT THIS RUMOR IS TRUE.

BUT IN FACT, FDR WAS VERY, VERY SAVVY TO NAME JOE KENNEDY.

FIRST OF ALL, WALL STREET, WHICH HAD FIERCELY FOUGHT NOT ONLY THIS BILL CREATING THE S.E.C., BUT THE EARLY ONE THAT HAD REQUIRED TRUTH IN THE SALES OF SECURITIES, THEY COULD HARDLY SAY WELL, THIS GUY DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WALL STREET.

YOU'RE PUTTING AN IDIOT IN CHARGE OF OUR MARKETPLACE.

NO ONE KNEW WALL STREET BETTER THAN JOE KENNEDY DID.

SO FDR SAW IT AS A WAY TO DISARM WALL STREET'S PREDICTABLE OBJECTIONS.

BUT HE KNEW, AS MOST OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC DID NOT THAT JOE KENNEDY HAD ALWAYS BEEN AN OUTSIDER ON THE STREET.

HE PLAYED A LONE GAME AND KEPT HIS CARDS VERY CLOSE TO HIS CHEST.

AND HE WAS NO MORE BEHOLDEN TO THOSE WALL STREET TITANS THAN ROOSEVELT WAS.

>> SO HOW WELL DID HE DO?

>> IT WAS A MASTERPIECE OF PUBLIC SERVICE, WALTER, IT REALLY WAS.

AND GIVEN THE REST OF JOE KENNEDY'S CAREER, IT SEEMS ODD TO SAY THAT, BUT IT REALLY WAS.

AS I REVIEWED IN GREAT DETAIL THE DAILY WORKINGS, THE MINUTES OF THE MEETINGS HE RAN, THE APPOINTMENTS HE MADE, THE PEOPLE HE HIRED, IT WAS TRULY A REMARKABLE ACT OF PUBLIC SERVICE.

HE TOOK A BUNCH OF WORDS ON PAPER, AND IN A FEW MONTHS TURNED THEM INTO A WATCHDOG AGENCY THAT WAS ON THE STREET, THAT WAS ON THE JOB RIGHT AWAY.

>> FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT HAS AN INCREDIBLY ACTIVE FIRST 100 DAYS, AS IT WAS CALLED.

DOES ALL SORTS OF THINGS TO TRY TO TACKLE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

TELL ME ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS BESIDES IN ADDITION TO FINANCIAL REGULATION, AND HOW THOSE WERE CONNECTED TO HIS WALL STREET REGULATIONS.

>> WELL, THE BEST OF COURSE IS I CONSIDER THAT AS WELL PART OF HIS FINANCIAL REFORMS.

AS YOU KNOW, WALTER, WHEN ROOSEVELT WAS SWORN IN ON MARCH 4th IN 1983, WE WERE IN THE MIDST OF THE MOST SERIOUS BANKING CRISIS THE COUNTRY HAD EVER EXPERIENCED.

AROUND 3:00 IN THE MORNING ON THE DAY ROOSEVELT WAS SWORN IN, NEW YORK BECAME THE FINAL STATE TO SHUT ITS BANKS.

THEY WERE BEING SHUTTERED ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO PROTECT THEM FROM PANICKY RUNS BY THEIR CUSTOMERS.

AND WITH THE BANKS SHUT, PARTICULARLY THE MONEY CENTER BANKS, THE STOCK EXCHANGE CLOSED, THE COMMODITY EXCHANGES CLOSED.

THE FINANCIAL MACHINERY OF THE COUNTRY HAD COME TO A DEAD STAND STILL BY DAWN ON INAUGURATION DAY.

SO JOB ONE FOR ROOSEVELT WAS TO GET THOSE BANKS OPEN AGAIN.

AND THE TALE OF HOW HE DID IT TO ME IS ONE OF THE BEST BITS OF THE BOOK.

IT WAS REALLY REMARKABLE.

THE LESSONS HE BROUGHT FROM HIS GOVERNORSHIP WERE BROUGHT TO BEAR.

HE UNDERSTOOD THAT THE BANKS WERE IN TROUBLE.

NOT BECAUSE PEOPLE DIDN'T TRUST THE NEW DEAL, THEY WERE IN TROUBLE BECAUSE PEOPLE DIDN'T TRUST THE BANKS.

AND SO HIS IDEA WAS TO INTERVENE A BANK MORATORIUM, TO GIVE REGULATORS IN EVERY DAY AND IN THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT TIME TO ASORT WHICH BANKS WERE STRONG, WHICH WERE WEAK, WHICH NEEDED NEW CAPITAL, WHAT COULD BE DONE TO RESCUE THEM.

THEN HE HAD A FIRESIDE CHAT, THE FIRST OF THE RADIO ADDRESSES TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THAT BECAME SO FAMOUS WAS ON THE BANKING CRISIS.

AND HE EXPLAINED TO THEM.

AND JUST EVERY DAY KITCHEN TABLE LANGUAGE HOW THE BANKING SYSTEM WORKED, HOW IT HAD GOTTEN IN TROUBLE, WHAT HE WAS DOING TO TRY TO FIX IT, AND WHAT THEY SHOULD DO WHEN THEIR BANKS REOPENED.

AND HE ASSURED THEM THAT ANY BANK THAT REOPENED AFTER THIS MORATORIUM COULD BE TRUSTED.

SO WITHIN TEN DAYS, BANKS STARTED TO REOPEN, AND IN DEFIANCE OF HERBERT HOOVER'S PREDICTIONS, PEOPLE LINED UP TO PUT MONEY BACK IN.

SO IT WAS A REMARKABLE DISPLAY OF HOW MUCH AN INFUSION OF CONFIDENCE COULD MATTER JUST AS MUCH AS AN INFUSION OF CAPITAL.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I ALWAYS SAID ABOUT ROOSEVELT IS HIS STYLE WAS TO TRY ANYTHING, TO KEEP TRYING, TO SNAKE SURE YOU WERE SEEN TRYING.

>> YES.

>> THAT CAN LEAD TO SOME MISSTEPS.

WHAT FAILURES TO YOU THINK HAPPENED IN THE NEW DEAL?

>> WELL, NO DOUBT THE NATIONAL RECOVERY ACT, WHICH WAS STRUCK DOWN BY THE SUPREME COURT VERY EARLY IN THE NEW DEAL I THINK WAS A WRONGHEADED IDEA.

THE NATIONAL RECOVERY ACT WAS AN EFFORT TO ALLOW INDUSTRY TO WORK TOGETHER TO COORDINATE TOGETHER, SUPPOSEDLY TO SUPPORT PRICES AND WAGES.

WHAT IT WAS DEVOLVING INTO WAS, YOU KNOW, PRICE-FIXING AND WAGE SUPPRESSION.

AND BY THE TIME THE SUPREME COURT STRUCK IT DOWN, THE REST OF THE NEW DEALERS HAD BASICALLY SAID THIS IS NOT WORKING.

WE NEED SOMETHING ELSE.

SO THAT WAS A MISSTEP.

PERHAPS HIS WORST FAILINGS ON THE FINANCIAL REFORM FRONT HOWEVER WAS HIS HANDLING OF THE 1937 RECESSION, WHICH I DEAL WITH IN THE BOOK.

IT'S HARD FOR SOMEONE I ADMIRE AS MUCH AS ROOSEVELT FOR ME TO SAY HE REALLY FLUBBED IT, BUT HE REALLY FLUBBED IT.

HE WAS GETTING A LOT OF ADVICE FROM MORE CONSERVATIVE NEW DEALERS, JOE KENNEDY AMONG THEM, THAT HE NEEDED TO BALANCE THE BUDGET.

OKAY.

WE'RE OUT OF THE EMERGENCY.

WE'VE CURED THE DEPRESSION.

THINGS ARE ON THE REBOUND.

NOW WE'VE GOT TO GET BACK TO BRASS TAX, TO THE OLD HALE AND BUDGET.

SO HE CUT SPENDING IN 1936 GOING INTO '37 LONG BEFORE THE ECONOMY WAS READY TO ABSORB THAT KIND OF CUT.

>> YOU SAY IT SO URGENT THAT WE UNDERSTAND THIS TODAY WHEN WE'RE HAVING A CRISIS OF DEMOCRACY, AND SOMETIMES A CRISIS OF CONFIDENCE WHEN IT COMES TO THE FINANCIAL SECTOR.

EXPLAIN WHY YOU THINK THIS IS URGENT NOW.

>> WELL, IN A VERY REAL SENSE, WALTER, THESE REFORMS THAT WE'VE INHERITED FROM FDR, WE TAKE SO MUCH FOR GRANTED TODAY.

THEY'RE ON THE BALLOT IN 2024.

ONE OF THE MAJOR CANDIDATES LIKELY TO BE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT HAS AN OPEN TRACK RECORD OF HOSTILITY TO FINANCIAL REGULATION.

HE BRAGGED -- PRESIDENT TRUMP BRAGGED IN HIS 2018 STATE OF THE UNION THAT HE HAD DONE MORE THAN ANY OTHER ADMINISTRATION IN HISTORY TO REDUCE FINANCIAL REGULATION.

AND THAT'S NOT JUST TRUMP HYPERBOLE.

HE DID.

AND HE WILL AGAIN.

HIS TRACK RECORD WAS TO PUT APPOINTEES IN CHARGE OF REGULATORY AGENCIES WHO WERE OPENLY HOSTILE TO THE MISSION OF THOSE AGENCIES.

HE APPOINTED PRO-BUSINESS ANTI-REGULATORY JUDGES EVERY TIME HE COULD.

SO ANOTHER TRUMP TERM WOULD MEAN FURTHER DESTRUCTION OF THE FINANCIAL REGULATORY MACHINE THAT SERVED US PRETTY DARN WELL FOR NEARLY 90 YEARS.

>> BUT AREN'T THERE SOME REGULATIONS THAT YOU THINK NEED TO BE REVISITED?

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.

AND MORE THAN REVISITED.

ANOTHER WAY THAT FINANCIAL REFORM IS ON THE BALLOT IN 2024 IS WE'VE GOT TO ELECT PEOPLE TO CONGRESS AND THE SENATE WHO CAN GET TO WORKWISELY AND QUICKLY, MODERNIZING THE FINANCIAL REGULATORY SYSTEM THAT HAS GROWN UP AROUND THE CORE OF ROOSEVELT'S REFORMS AND PREPARE IT FOR A NEW CENTURY.

SO WE'VE GOT TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMITTED TO FINANCIAL PROTECTION, TO INVESTOR PROTECTION, BUT WHO ARE GOING TO WORK TOGETHER TO PRODUCE WITH INDUSTRY A MODERNIZED FINANCIAL REFORM THAT CAN CONTINUE ROOSEVELT'S WORK TO HAVE A CONGRESS FULL OF PEOPLE READY TO TEAR ALL THIS STUFF DOWN WOULD BE DISASTROUS, BECAUSE WE'VE GOT OUR 401(K) PLANS, OUR PENSIONS ARE TIED UP IN THE STOCK MARKET.

OUR MORTGAGES ARE IMPORTANT TO OUR FINANCIAL SECURITY.

AMERICANS TODAY ARE SO MUCH MORE ENGAGED WITH THE WORLD OF FINANCE THAT THEY WOULD BE SO MUCH MORE AT RISK IF THE RULES OF THAT WORLD DEVOLVED BACK TO WHAT THEY HAD BEEN THIS THE JAZZ AGE.

>> DIANE HENRIQUES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>>> AND FINALLY, PHOTOGRAPHY IS NOW ALLOWED.

AFTER THREE DECADES, SPAIN'S MUSEUM HAS LIFTED PABLO PICASSO'S SYMBOLIZING THE CIVIL WAR.

VISITORS ARE CLAMBERING TO GET CLOSER AND HOPEFULLY LEARN SOME HISTORY.

PICASSO'S NAME IS KNOWN FOR THE CITY OF GUER ANYCA WHICH GERMANY BOMBED IN SUPPORT OF GENERAL FRANCO, ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES A CIVILIAN POPULATION WAS TARGETED BY AERIAL BOMBING.

IT IS A DEEPLY ANTI-WAR PIECE AND A 25-FOOT TAPESTRY REPLICA OF THE PAINTING HANGS RIGHT BEHIND ME IN THE U.N. BUILDING.

AND THIS WEEK, LEADERS HERE ARE DISCUSSING YET ANOTHER TARGETING OF CIVILIAN POPULATIONS, THIS TIME BY RUSSIA IN UKRAINE.

THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

AND YOU CAN ALWAYS CATCH US ONLINE AND ALL OVER SOCIAL MEDIA.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.