Hello Colorado.

And yes, we have heard from those of you who have written in, especially over the last couple of weeks, about our conversations here at the table.

Some of you like what you're hearing from our panelists.

Others tell us you disagree with some of what's being said.

I guess we're doing our job here on Colorado Inside Out.

Our insiders are invited to share their perspectives.

I want to hear what they're going to say about certain issues, situations, and I appreciate how everyone here agrees to disagree, which is far and few between these days.

The polarizing messaging, the personal attacks, divisive dialog.

And yet, sadly, now the violence all too present, but also very present.

People are trying to get us thinking collectively about solutions.

And I have for those people alongside me, this week.

So let's get the conversation started.

Hi everyone, I'm Kyle Dyer.

Let's get right to introducing you to this week's insider panel.

We start with Patty Calhoun, the founder and editor of Westward Eric Sondermann and columnist with Colorado Politics and the Denver and Colorado Springs Gazette, Tyrone Glover, civil rights and criminal defense attorney at Tyrone Glover Law and Adam Burg, senior policy advisor for foster, Graham Milstein and Keller Shaw law firm.

Money and what to do with the lack of it is the talk of city governments right now as they prepare their budgets for the next year, Colorado communities are having to look where they can slim things down.

But it's Denver that has the steepest hole to climb.

Monday night, Mayor Johnson presented his $5.4 billion city budget, saying it's the most conservative budget in 15 years.

And that follows already the job cuts that happened earlier this summer.

And then our neighbor in Aurora.

No layoffs are planned, but residents can expect an increase in fees for services to help with their $20 million deficit.

And in Colorado Springs, Colorado's second largest city, cost cutting measures are also underway, including some cuts, job cuts and also furloughs to deal with their $31 million shortage.

Patty.

This is a strategic and difficult time for most Colorado cities, right?

It's not just the big cities.

The municipalities are having a really tough time.

The small towns are having a really tough time.

Denver has a unique problem because they've already raised the fees and the service charges that Aurora is now looking at.

They can't do that again.

They can't charge another sidewalk B or another trash B or another residential parking fee.

So but he Mike Thompson definitely was limited in what he could do.

He's looking for a 5.8 average budget cut across all the departments after he's already had freezes and eliminated jobs 107, 170, 169 or 71 positions.

Although one person has just got a restraining order to try to keep her job.

Jessica Calderon is fighting.

Everybody is going to be fighting.

Every city council person is going to be fighting every department chief is going to fight some of them.

We'll do it behind the scenes.

Some will be like clerk and recorder Paul Lopez, who went very public with his concern about this.

I personally am most concerned.

Parking magistrate office already gone.

Our best friend in the early days of Westword when he had to go beg for all our parking ticket mercies and that is gone.

You're going to have to go to the county court.

Did go to Patty on the parking magistrate in particular.

That was nice and efficient to be just be able to do that online.

And you either ruled that they ruled in your favor, they ruled against you.

But it was quick.

It was efficient.

I guess my overall take, Kyle, is that, you know, these are new and different times in Denver and around cities and throughout metro area, Front Range all over the state.

It is a new narrative.

The state has gotten used over the past 10 or 15 years to a great expansion, expansion of population, expansion of budgets, expansion of government services, expansion of programs.

And now we have a belt tightening coming and belt tightening are painful over the long run.

You can't be an expansionary phase indefinitely.

You need to their market cycles.

And in this case they're there economic and budgetary cycles.

So belt tightening can be onerous.

They're no fun for the people in power.

I don't think Mike Johnston ran for mayor with this in mind, but this is the hand he's been dealt.

And over the long haul, it might be good for the city.

Okay, Darren, I think what makes this belt tightening unique is, I think just how drastic in some places it is and how rapid is happening and also how ubiquitous it is, not only through our larger cities here in Colorado, but even some of our smaller municipalities.

You know, it's something I think that needs to happen.

And I applaud our, leaders for, trying to be creative.

But I think the biggest thing is we need to make sure that we don't lose sight of our core democratic functions.

There were cuts to ballot boxes, polling stations, community centers, homeless shelters.

Right.

Everyone is taking cuts.

Those are as well.

But we really need to make sure that, you know, those particular areas don't suffer, even though we've cut some of those resources.

I think there's a lot of complexity to to some of this that we're seeing across the state, because just like our cities, the state budget is also going through a belt tightening.

And there's a lot of reason for it.

There's decreased sales and use tax.

There are property tax issues.

There are, some federal funding and state funding fluctuations, and just a lot of economic uncertainty.

And I think it's a reminder that all politics is local.

So when people are looking at national trends and feeling concern about their spending ability, they spend less in their local cities.

And that in turn impacts the city budget.

The thing I think that's going to be most interesting is at the same time, we got the budget on Monday, we also learned more about Waste No More, which is a, a measure that was passed several years ago that deals with composting and recycling requirements in the city.

They're now looking at an implementation deadline for some time next year.

The question I have is, amidst budget cuts and staffing reductions, how do they plan to go enforce this very large new program?

And that's something that the mayor's office is going to have to think about over the next years.

Where does enforcement come from in times like this?

You're right.

Colorado House Minority Leader Rose Puglisi of El Paso County quit earlier this week, effective immediately, saying that she wanted to be with her children more and free from the toxicity of politics.

And recently, there was an emotional public blowup at the end of the special session.

Eric, Colorado Republicans have lost three prominent leaders over this summer.

Things are going to look a lot different and sound a lot different once the session starts in January.

Both minority leaders in the House and Senate have left Rose Puglisi, the topic of this discussion and earlier this summer, Paul Lundeen, I want Mundine left for a different job.

Puglisi just sort of threw her hands up, said I had enough.

She was close by.

Report to Charlie Kirk, and I think the emotional aftermath of that took a toll.

But there was also events prior to that or in around the special session prior to the Kirk assassination, that that I think took a toll on her.

I think part of what we're seeing here is it is just no fun being in the minority party.

And really not having any power.

Puglisi talked about the toxic environment, and she is not the first person to talk about that.

I think, the previous legislative session, we had two resignations.

They were both from majority Democrats who said, I just can't take this level of toxicity.

It's a sad testament to what politics is these days.

And, I wish there was something to be done about it.

Am I wrong?

I mean, these vacancies are really unfortunate, and I think, you know, it's a cause for institutional instability.

Whether you agree or disagree with, Puglisi or any of the other folks who have ultimately resigned.

You know, she represents 75,000 constituents who right now are lacking representation.

We have a representative democracy.

We send folks, we vote them in.

They are representing on our interests and this sort of shuffling and moving of vacancies, even if it's just for 30 days, is just so in, you know, destabilizing.

And so I just hope that, you know, I think we'll probably talk about it later that just the culture, the decorum, the respect for each other can improve so that we can really honor the intent of the people and have the people that we vote in to have.

They're representing us.

Right?

Right.

Adam.

These things happen.

They've happened with, Lundeen and Puglisi.

We saw Armiger, who's been the center of a lot of attention, also resigned.

We saw Tracy Brunet, Adrian Benavidez in previous years, Dan Bowen, John Cephalus.

So there's this churn, and it does feel like it's now more common.

I think the issue, as has been stated with the vacancy process, is we are now allowing county parties, which tend to be very solidify and made up of a small group of people determining then who the next representative is.

It can also lead to sometimes more extreme candidates then being placed into office, who may not win through a general election process.

And I think it's added to the vitriol and the hostility under the Gold Dome.

It's just sad to see people, who go into office and then choose that because of the culture of it that they don't want to serve anymore.

We have to remember that we have term limits at the state legislators, too.

So you have this situation where the only institutional memory now at the state Capitol are lobbyists and Marianne Goodland and a few other journalists.

So it's really easy, I think, to manipulate a lot of the newbies because they don't have the memory.

They don't know what happened before, they don't know what compromises were made.

They may not even know where the bodies were buried.

And it takes really knowing what's gone on before to really parse through all the proposals that come up.

So that's disappointing.

As for the toxicity, it is not just the statehouse and that's the issue.

It is spilling all over the Capitol, the media, and I know we're going to talk more about that.

In her case, I truly think when she said she wanted to go back, she'd moved to take this, to run for this seat, wants to go back to the Western Slope with her kids this week.

You believe that this week, Colorado high school students have walked out of class and raised their voices against gun violence following last week's shooting at Evergreen High School, and they have not gotten in trouble for the walkouts.

As one school district A recognize they're expressing their opinions for a matter important to them.

Yet also this week, there is a much larger debate beyond gun violence in schools.

And that is what constitutes free speech, which is protected by the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

We have seen people losing their jobs, other people calling for people to lose their jobs.

And we saw on Wednesday that a Jimmy Kimmel show on ABC has been taken off the air because of comments he made following the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

Tyrone, I'm very glad you were here this week as our civil rights attorney.

What is free speech?

Is it what is protected?

What is going on?

Well, I think where you started, right, is a lot of where our free speech and First Amendment president is.

It's the protest.

It's the walkout is the demonstration.

Protests airing your grievances about the government, you know, that is actually also protected under the First Amendment.

And it's part of the free speech doctrine, where we're sort of dealing right now is in the employment context.

Right.

And your employment handbook is not the Bill of rights.

And so you don't necessarily have those same rights as you might if you are in a public forum protesting, a war or gun violence or a bill or something that was just recently passed when you sort of move into the city and state, folks, and it starts to get a little bit grayer, right.

You have to look at whether your speech is disrupting workplace efficiency.

And when you have an administration that is willing to sort of get involved in these spats, and you also have social media that can kind of take on a mind of its own, whether that's disrupting workplace efficiency starts to be a bit more gray and a bit of a more murky test there.

But the actions in places where people are being harmed is in this sort of, quasi public and private space.

Yeah.

Adam, your thoughts on this?

You know, it was interesting.

The daily yesterday talked about how, Vice President Vance and his conversations around going after left leaning institutions.

There was a time under the Obama administration where the Treasury actually went after, Tea Party organizations and their sort of financial political leanings, not under the approval of Obama.

He actually, was vocal about his disagreement with it, but there's some form of sort of this sense of retribution for what had started on one side and now is trickling into the other.

But I think what was raised is the really interesting point, which is the core tension around freedom of speech between constitutional protection from a government, in terms of censorship.

And we could talk about Jimmy Kimmel and what's going on versus the consequences of an employment agreement in which you violate some kind of standard that the employer has set.

So I think it's a very complicated but important conversation to be having.

Patty, I want to return to evergreen for a little bit.

So if you compare this to Colin Biden, it's impossible not to.

I mean, the shooter in evergreen was wearing a t shirt that echoed one Dylan Klebold had worn that Jefferson County Sheriff's Office.

The difference in how we're seeing them respond and talk about freedom, freedom of access to information.

Compared to 26 years ago, they've been far more forthcoming.

We know a lot more from the lessons of Columbine about shootings happen fast.

You have to go in.

That did sound like what happened in evergreen once they actually got people on site.

We're also finding out that there weren't people on site.

We're learning that there actually were there were websites, there were hints that something was going to go on, but they didn't know who it was or where it was.

But the FBI is beginning to study the internet so much more than it used to happen.

So we've learned some lessons, which is bullying is largely responsible for setting off school shooters.

But now the bullying is being done in cyberspace, which makes it so much harder to find.

I'm going to go back to the broader issue, not evergreen specifically.

Neither the left or the right in this country has covered themselves in a lot of glory since the Charlie Kirk assassination 9 or 10 days ago from Vice President Vance to President Trump on down through the MAGA ranks, it seems like they are taking this almost opportunist opportunistically as a chance to go after their enemies and to repress the speech of their enemies.

The irony in that is that one of the bigger advocates for free speech was Charlie Kirk, and he was clear on how even obnoxious, atrocious I think he used.

The word gross speech is still protected speech under the First Amendment.

So were he alive today, as he ought to be, he would be opposed to a lot of what is being done in his name.

Now, the left obviously has its own track record over recent years with what a lot of what has gone on, gone on, on campuses around the country and the whole notion of instead of disagreeing with speech, trying to shut it down.

And that is wrong.

It is antithetical to our principles as a country.

And that is the case whether that speech is on the left or the right, and whether that repression is on the left or the right.

Okay.

You know, over the last few weeks, we have received some pretty vocal feedback from viewers saying certain panelists are too left leaning, others are too conservative and wishing that they not return to the show.

Well, we all want things to be better and we all have different ideas on how to get there.

And at CIA, we want to encourage people to listen to one another, to those different ideas.

If you check out other panel discussion shows, they are screaming matches and we are not going to go there.

This show has proved on and on that we can have successful, thoughtful conversation that is respectful.

Now, am I too naive or vanilla?

Are we as a show to think that we can continue this way?

I think that's what CIA has been founded on over 30, all the years you've been on for 30 plus years, but the rest of society seems to want screaming, and we have to refocus on listening.

I think this is I appreciate this topic being on.

I think all of us who work in this space and have the opportunity to share our thoughts feel a lot of this, and we see a lot of it across social media and beyond.

And I think people in this day and age have a tendency to seek out the sources that will confirm their beliefs.

And they have options.

They have more options now than they've ever had.

Whether it is a podcast hosted by someone in their basement or a media program produced in the studio.

And I think we become increasingly unwilling to accept or analyze the fact that we may be wrong.

And something I've been thinking about quite a bit is, you know, all of our worldviews are shaped by the experiences which led us to today or wherever we are at the time.

And much of my view of the state of affairs is based upon the fact of where I was raised and who my parents were, and where I went to school and my career.

And the question to me is, are we capable of being empathetic to people whose worldviews are different than our own?

And recognizing that while we may not agree, we can't least appreciate the fact that they have a different opinion than we do, and then begin a civil conversation from there.

So I you know, it's a hard time to be optimistic, but I think it's what we need to talk about.

Okay, Patty, let me travel back in time even further than Columbine in 1983, Alan Berg, a popular radio talk show host on Koa, unexpectedly popular, very liberal, very outspoken, was gunned down in Denver.

He was killed by white supremacists there.

It's not all that different now than it used to be.

Anyone who speaks their mind might be in danger.

What seems to you're in danger of your job.

You're in danger.

You know, people are out there looking to get you in a lot of ways.

But the difference is, while we have more access to information which can show us how other people live, we could become more broad minded.

We've also got more access to people who might think in that same little narrow way that we want to think and will encourage us.

But I have to remember, Alan Berg was a very similar situation, except it was completely flipped.

The difference is how the media has changed.

And I'm not talking about the news networks.

I'm talking about the access to the internet and how quickly things can blow up.

Eric?

Well, good for Patty for bringing some historical context to this.

I think what is different is back in the 80s, when Alan Berg was killed, it was so out of context that made it so shocking.

Today, it is much more in context.

I think we are living through a particularly frightening moment.

It's not the first frightening moment in this country, but it is a highly frightening moment, and we have to be able to figure out some way to coexist with each other.

The idea of splitting this country up or, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene proposed last week divorcing in w American Red America.

That is not going to happen.

And the consequences of it happening would be horrific to even contemplate.

I'm proud and proud to have been for many, many years a part of this show where we do have civil dialog.

I write a column under the tag of Down the Middle.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't have strong opinions or that I'm mushy or milquetoast.

It just means that I try to, to respect different sides of the argument, and I try to engage in that argument in a civil manner.

We're living in a frightening time.

We so quickly run to our political corners when everything and when ever anything happens.

And, we don't, as Adam articulately pointed out, we don't have empathy for those of a different viewpoint.

That is what's missing.

All right.

In Tyrone, we have to protect the places like this show where we have civil discourse, where we have respectful dialog, where decorum matters, where the way we treat our fellow panelists and the viewership matters.

I can remember early in my career as a, as a trial lawyer trying countless cases where if the two sides met each other on the street, they would come to blows or worse.

But because they believed in our system of justice, because we had, form, decorum, respect, they would show up each and every day, sit on their opposite sides of the courtroom for sometimes weeks at a time, and allow the sorts of processes that happen in a democratic society and a free society to play out.

And so I think protecting those spaces in the way that you have with the way that the folks here have, it's just really incumbent upon us and really kind of the only way that we come back from such divides.

So we carry on.

Thank you all.

Let's go down the line now and share some of the highs and lows of the week.

We start on a low note so that we can please end on a happy note.

Patty, are you negative?

As soon as the show is over, run out and go to Civic Center Park while you still can.

It's going to be the night market itself, celebrating Hispanic Heritage Month, but soon it will lock down for renovations that I think maybe could be postponed and save that $30 million when the city's in so much trouble.

But unless I win that campaign, go out and enjoy it now, because the construction is starting when it will start this fall.

Okay.

All right, Eric, I'm going to stick with the topic today for the Kirk assassination, which is still quite, quite recent.

And the reactions of bad Partizan actors on both sides.

On the left there was on social media, which can be so, so toxic.

There was if not a celebration, almost, you know, feigning sympathy and, a lot of allegations that he had it coming in.

He got his just desserts.

Completely disgusting stuff.

But among Charlie Kirk's own crowd on on the political right, too many are using this as almost an opportunity for McCarthy's crackdown on free speech.

Neither one does him the honor that he deserves and shame on all involved.

Okay.

And, Tyrone, I want to go a little bit lighter.

Due to work obligations, Pam Greer is no longer going to attend the East Film Fest.

I saw this as my opportunity to finally meet the great Pam Greer, who I've been a fan of for for many, many years.

The event's still going to go on.

I implore everyone to attend, but I'm kind of bummed I it's on the bucket list will happen, but not at this fest.

I think to echo Eric, it's hard to pick just one.

Which means it's been a really tough week, two weeks for all of us.

And I just think it feels really heavy and overwhelming to a lot of people right now to be either working in politics or law or wherever else.

And then just even be tuning in.

I think a lot of us are drained from staring at our phones and waiting for the next story to come out.

So I just would encourage everyone to, you know, take a breath, take a break.

We're getting right into the weekend and trying to unplug.

Okay.

All right.

And something good.

Patty.

Okay.

I found something pretty.

Wasn't easy.

Robert Redford.

I'm going to miss him, but one of the really fascinating stories that came out this week is that he tried to bring the equivalent of Sundance here 50 years ago, when he was at the peak of his stardom, and he met with Stan Brakhage and Dick Lamm, and it just couldn't work.

Well, now he at least is leaving Boulder.

Sundance.

Yes.

Not this winter, but the 2027.

We'll have the first Sundance in Colorado.

That was sad to see him go.

Eric.

Well, as I've said, there were plenty of bad actors in the aftermath of the Kirk assassination, but there were also some very good actors, and one of them was the governor of Utah, Spencer Cox, who more than acquitted himself.

He did things right, whether it was in terms of informing the public of what was going on and the investigation or more broadly, as a conservative Republican, appealing to people's better angels, appealing for rationality and calm and civility across the country.

That's who he is.

That's who he has been before this incident.

And so he continues to be Utah's well served term.

And, you know, to that similar end, you know, if we want to turn over a new leaf and take a new direction, literally that is about to start happening, right?

We're starting to feel that cooler weather, the temperatures are dropping at night.

Leaf season is starting.

It's going, I think, kind of start making its way into all of the places we like to visit during the fall.

I'm starting to see the October Fest.

Events starting to percolate.

So maybe with the new season and new direction, we can get some new, more unifying energy in this, community.

Manifesting the aspens.

Yeah.

Know, Adam, I'm going to end with the best news, which is personal news, which is I, got married a couple weeks ago, which has just been so much joy, honestly, at the time where I, we all kind of I needed it.

I need the wedding was a great celebration for everyone, but, just a shout out to my now wife, Jill.

And excited to be back and right back into work.

It's like I never left.

But it's different now.

It is different.

Mrs.. Congratulations.

Thank you.

My high as I am headed back to Maryland this weekend to be with family, and I am eager to unplug, as Adam suggested, and just be Carol's daughter, Josie's mom, Greg's little sister, and Christine's aunt.

And I'm really excited to have a good crab cake.

Can't wait, but I will come back.

Don't worry.

Thanks, insiders, for joining us this week and for your thoughtful discussion and for the good listening to one another.

Thank you for listening to our show, either on television or your computer, on your podcast.

I'm Kyle Dyer.

I will see you next week here on PBS 12.

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