>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR DONNYBROOK, THE FIRST OF SEPTEMBER.

WE'VE GOT LOTS OF HOT TOPICS COMING YOUR WAY FOR THE NEXT HALF HOUR AND THEN ON THE SECOND HALF HOUR, WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT URBAN FLOODING.

DID YOU SEE THE VIDEO FROM NEW YORK CITY AND ELSEWHERE, NOT TO MENTION NEW ORLEANS, OF COURSE?

ROBERT CRISS, PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF EARTH AND PLANETARY SCIENCES AT WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY WILL BE OUR GUEST.

LET'S MEET OUR PANEL FOR THE SHOW, STARTING WITH THE NEWS DIRECTOR FOR THE BIG 550 KTRS AND THE COHOST THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW, WENDY WIESE.

IN BILL McCLELLAN, GREAT COLUMNIST WITH THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH AND STL TODAY.COM.

RAY HARTMANN, ANOTHER GREAT COLUMNIST WITH RAWSTORY.COM, THE RIVERFRONT TIMES AND TALK SHOW HOST WITH THE BIG 550.

AND ALVIN REID, GREAT COLUMNIST WITH THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN AND ALSO THE NEWS EDITOR THERE AND SPEAKING OF COLUMNS, MAYBE A MOMENT, BILL TO, CONGRATULATE YOU ON A FANTASTIC COLUMN ON SUNDAY WHEN YOU ANNOUNCED TO MANY READERS THAT YOU ARE CANCER-FREE.

THAT'S SUCH GOOD NEWS.

>> THANK YOU, CHARLIE.

>> WE'LL START, I GUESS, THIS MORNING WITH YOU, ALVIN, WHO BY THE WAY HAS A BIRTHDAY.

YOU HAVE A BIRTHDAY ON MONDAY.

I WANT TO EXPLAIN TO OUR VIEWERS JUST YOUR CONNECTION TO LABOR DAY?

>> WELL, MY MOM WENT INTO LABOR ON LABOR DAY IN 1960.

I WAS BORN THE NEXT MORNING.

I WILL SAY THAT I WAS 60, YOU KNOW, IN -- I WAS BORN IN 1960 AND I TURNED 60, YOU KNOW, IF SIX IS WILD, 9-6-60, AND BECAUSE LABOR DAY HAS TO BE THE FIRST MONDAY IN SEPTEMBER AND THEN YOU THROW IN THE LEAP YEAR EVERY FOUR YEARS, MY BIRTHDAY FALLS ON LABOR DAY WEEKEND LIKE UNUSUALLY A LOT.

SO IT'S ALL ABOUT ME.

>> HAPPY BIRTHDAY.

>> SO FOOTBALL, THIS WEEKEND IS NINE.

>> WELL, YOU'RE GETTING UP THERE T ALVIN, WHERE SOMEDAY YOU MIGHT NEED A NURSING HOME AND THE NEWS OF MICHELLE MUNZ FROM THE ST. LOUIS TOUCHDOWN WAS NOT ALL THAT ENCOURAGE -- ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH WAS NOT ALL THAT ENCOURAGING BECAUSE SHE REPORTED THAT MISSOURI NURSING HOME WORKERS WAS FULLY VACCINATED WAY BELOW THE NATIONAL AVERAGE OF 61%.

SHE FOUND 20 NURSING HOMES WITH VACCINATION RATES FOR THE WORKERS UNDER 20%, SOME IN OUR AREA WERE AS LOW AS 10% OF THE WORKERS TAKING CARE OF OUR MOST VULNERABLE, THOSE WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, MOST LIKELY TO DIE FROM CATCH COVID-19, 10% OF THOSE WORKERS VACCINATED.

THERE IS ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE, IN YOUR OPINION, KNOWING THAT IF THE VACCINE IS MANDATED AND IT'S GOING TO BE BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THERE MIGHT BE A HUGE WALKOUT AMONG OUR ELDERLY?

>> WELL, WE'RE AT THAT POINT, I THINK, IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THAT ALL THE THREATS AND I'M GOING TO QUIT AND THEY NEVER DO IT, THEY JUST HAVE TO BE FACED DOWN.

YOU HAVE TO GET VACCINATED TO WORK IN THESE FACILITIES, OKAY?

48% IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

61% IS SAD IF THAT'S AVERAGE OR YOU THINK THAT'S WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE PRETTY GOOD.

I MEAN, IT'S TIME, SO YOU QUIT.

ALL RIGHT, NOW WHAT DO WE DO?

WELL, WE ATTRACT WORKERS WITH A BONUS, BUT ALSO HIGHER SALARY AND MAYBE YOU COULD GET PEOPLE WHO ARE RETIRED VOLUNTEER AND MAYBE THEY DON'T WANT TO WORK THERE FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, BUT YOU COULD GET THEM THERE, ESPECIALLY WITH A REALLY SOMEWHAT GENEROUS HOURLY WAGE.

AND, YOU KNOW, FOLKS THAT WORK AT -- WANT $15 AN HOUR TO WORK AT FAST FOOD PLACES, WHAT IF YOU OFFERED THEM $21 AN HOUR TO COME WORK AT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THESE FACILITIES.

?

I THINK YOU CAN MAKE IT WORK.

I CAN'T GUARANTEE THAT, BUT WHAT I CAN GUARANTEE IS IF I WERE IN CHARGE, IT WOULD JUST BE MANDATED.

I MEAN, IF YOU WANT TO WORK HERE, YOU HAVE TO GET VACCINATED.

YOU COULD BE MAD, YOU CAN QUIT, YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO DO, BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO WORK HERE, YOU HAVE TO BE VACCINATED.

>> THAT'S THE SCARY THING, THOUGH, IN MY OPINION, FOR THOSE NURSING HOMES, FOR THE OPERATORS, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANYBODY TO REPLACE THE ONES WHO HAVE ALREADY THREATENED TO QUIT, AND THESE ARE -- I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, ALVIN, AND IN A PERFECT WORLD, PEOPLE WOULD RESPOND TO MAYBE A BIGGER PAYCHECK, BUT TODAY, THAT DOESN'T -- THAT SEEMINGLY -- I MEAN, THAT'S NOT REALLY BRINGING PEOPLE IN AND IF YOU HAVE A LOVED ONE WHO WAS BEING CARED FOR IN ONE OF THESE FACILITIES, I WOULD EXPECT A HIGHER QUALITY OF CARE THAN SOMEBODY WHO JUST WALKED OUT OF A FAST FOOD RESTAURANT.

>> WELL, HOW HIGH QUALITY OF CARE DO YOU HAVE FROM SOMEBODY THAT DOESN'T HAVE THE JUDGMENT TO GET THEMSELVES VACCINATED?

>> WELL, THAT IS A GOOD POINT AND WHY WOULD YOU WORK WITH ELDERLY PEOPLE IF YOU DON'T CARE ENOUGH ABOUT THEM AND THEIR WELL-BEING?

>> I'M WITH ALVIN.

LET ADAM SMITH'S SUPPLY AND DEMAND CAPITALISM GIVE IT A TRY AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

KEEP IN MIND, NURSING HOMES HAVE TO GO THROUGH ALL KINDS OF REGULATIONS AND HOOPS AND HEALTH RULES TO OPERATE A NURSING HOME.

IT'S NOT -- IT'S A COMPLICATED BUSINESS, IT'S A DIFFICULT BUSINESS TO OPERATE IN THAT RESPECT.

THEY'RE USED TO HAVING RULES TO FOLLOW AND THIS IS ONE OF THE ONES THAT OUGHT TO BE FOLLOWED.

IT'S REAL SIMPLE.

YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE A JOB IN ANY PARTICULAR PLACE.

>> BUT WHAT IF THEY HAVE TO SHUT DOWN?

>> I'LL MAKE A COUPLE POINTS.

FIRST OF ALL, I THOUGHT IT WAS A GREAT STORY BY MICHELLE, BUT THERE'S ALSO ANOTHER BYLINE, ANNIKA, GIVE HER CREDIT.

THE PROBLEM, WE'LL JUST PAY PEOPLE MORE IS A LOT OF THESE PLACES ARE LOW-RENT PLACES AND THIS IS UNPLEASANT WORK AND YOU CAN SAY, OKAY, WELL, WE'LL GIVE PEOPLE $21 AN HOUR, BUT SOMEBODY'S GOT TO PAY FOR IT AND THESE ARE OFTEN VERY POOR PEOPLE IN THESE NURSING HOMES.

AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T HAVE THE SOLUTION, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE MONEY COMES FROM THAT YOU'RE -- TO THROW AT IT AND MAYBE EVENTUALLY WE'LL GO BACK TO THE WAY SOCIETY HAS BEEN FOR YEARS AND YEARS WHERE OLD PEOPLE LIVED WITH THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR GRANDCHILDREN AND IN MULTI-GENERATIONAL HOMES, BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- I'D RATHER WORK IN A FAST FOOD PLACE MYSELF THAN IN A NURSING HOME.

>> WELL, THAT'S INTERESTING, BUT I WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF JOBS OUT THERE THAT ARE PAYING PRETTY GOOD MONEY.

METRO IS ADVERTISING FOR DRIVERS.

THAT'S PRETTY GOOD.

YOU CAN MAKE SIX FIGURES NOW AS A NURSE, THERE'S A NURSING SHORTAGE THERE, THERE'S A SHORTAGE IN DRIVING.

WE KNOW ABOUT THE SCHOOL BUS DRIVERS WHO AREN'T PAID A KING'S RANSOM, BUT IT'S A COMPETITIVE WAGE AT $20 OR SO AN HOUR AND THEY CAN'T ATTRACT PEOPLE.

I'M JUST NOT SURE, ALVIN AND RAY, EVEN IF YOU UP THE PAY AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE NURSING HOME WORKERS MAKE MORE MONEY AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAD THAT IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL AND THEN THEY TOOK IT OUT.

I WISH THEY HAD KEPT IT IN FOR OUR CAREGIVERS, ESPECIALLY SINCE I'M GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THAT.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'D ATTRACT AMERICANS TO DO THAT KIND OF WORK.

I THINK BILL IS RIGHT.

>> LET ME ADD ANOTHER POINT OF REBUTTAL HERE.

DON'T ASSUME THAT JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY THEY'RE GOING TO QUIT -- >> THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY, RAY.

>> DONE ASSUME THEY'RE QUITTING.

>> ARE YOU SURE?

>> YEAH.

>> THE PLAN HAS SEVERAL ELEMENTS.

THE FIRST THING TO FIND OUT BEFORE RAISING THE PAY IS LET'S SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE GET THEIR BLUFF CALLED.

>> I AGREE.

YOU GOT TO START CALLING PEOPLE'S BLUFF.

>> THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY THERE IS TO -- SORRY, ALVIN.

>> LET'S MOVE FROM NURSING HOMES TO HIGH SCHOOLS.

BILL McCLELLAN, LET'S TALK ABOUT WEBSTER GROVES.

THERE'S A STORY THIS WEEK INDICATING THAT AT LEAST ONE MOM SAID THAT IT'S THE HILL THAT SHE'LL DIE ON, AND THAT IS SHE WANTS HER DAUGHTER TO BE ABLE TO WEAR A CROP TOP TO WEBSTER GROVE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

IT'S AN INTERESTING HILL TO DIE ON, A CROP TOP, BUT NONETHELESNONETHELESS, THAT'S HOW SHE FEELS AND A BUNCH OF WEBSTER GROVE GIRLS PROTESTED THIS WEEK, INSISTING THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BARE THEIR ABDOMEN IN THESE MID DRIFS THAT ARE SO POPULAR THESE DAYS.

DO YOU STAND WITH THE SCHOOLS WHO WANT TO BAN THEM OR THE STUDENTS WHO WANT TO WARE THEM?

>> WELL, I HAVE A GRANDDAUGHTER EVIE WHO TURNS 11 LATER THIS MONTH AND SHE GOES TO WEBSTER GROVES, AND I WISH I WOULD HAVE ASKED HER, BUT I DID ASK MY DAUGHTER AND MY DAUGHTER WAS WITH THE KIDS.

SHE SAID SHE DOESN'T THINK THERE'S A BIG PROBLEM IN WEBSTER GROVES ABOUT CROP TOPS -- IS THAT WHAT THEY'RE CALLED?

-- AND SHE THINKS IT'S A PARENTAL THING.

SO I STAND WITH MY DAUGHTER WHO STANDS WITH THE MOTHERS AND SCHOOL DRESS CODES GET TO BE, TO ME, ALL OR NOTHING.

YOU KNOW, YOU EITHER HAVE UNIFORMS OR YOU PRETTY MUCH LET PARENTS DECIDE WHAT THE KIDS ARE GOING TO WEAR.

>> WELL, I LOVE LORNA AND I LOVE EVIE AND I LOVE YOU, BUT I STAND WITH THE WEBSTER GROVES -- WITH THE SCHOOL DISTRICT BECAUSE THIS IS NOT -- YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE WOMEN QUOTED IN THE ARTICLE SAID, THIS IS SEXISM.

WELL, IF IT'S SEXISM, THE BOYS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WEAR CROP TOPS EITHER.

THAT BLOWS THAT ARGUMENT RIGHT OUT OF THE WATER.

WE HAVE TO HAVE RULES BECAUSE EVENTUALLY SOMEBODY IS GOING TO WANT THEIR DAUGHTER TO BE ABLE TO WEAR HEAVEN KNOWS WHAT, AND I JUST -- I THINK -- I AGREE WITH BILL.

I THINK UNIFORMS WOULD BE FANTASTIC, BUT THE ONLY THING THAT'S GOING TO MAKE THEM SCREAM LOUDER THAN A BAN ON CROP TOPS IS THE IMPOSITION OF WEARING UNIFORMS.

BUT I STAND WITH WEBSTER GROVES ON THIS, I REALLY DO.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE DRESS CODES AND RULES.

>> I STAND WITH WEBSTER GROVES TOO.

LISTEN, THIS IS SCHOOL.

THIS IS NOT, YOU KNOW, THE WEEKEND OR FASHION SHOW OR WHATEVER.

THIS IS SCHOOL, AND THEY DETERMINED THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS COULD BE A PROBLEM.

NOW, I'M NOT ACCUSING ANYBODY OF ANYTHING, OKAY?

BUT IN A SOCIETY WHERE WE'RE DEALING WITH ISSUES BETWEEN YOUNG MEN AND YOUNG WOMEN THAT WE HAVE NEVER REALLY HAD TO DEAL WITH BEFORE, THIS GRAY AREA OF WHAT IS, YOU KNOW, LIKE JUST -- YOU KNOW, UNAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR, HUH-UH.

IF THEY SAY, HEY, THIS COULD BE A PROBLEM AND WE'RE GOING TO -- WHAT DID BARNEY FIEFR SAY?

WE'RE GOING TO NIP IT IN THE BUD.

>> WHERE DO I GO TO SIGN UP FOR TEAM LORNA AND EVIE?

I'M ON TEAM EVIE ALL THE WAY.

AND FRANKLY, THIS REMINDS -- WE'VE GONE THROUGH SO MANY GENERATIONS, THE ARGUMENTS ON MASKS TODAY WERE ABOUT ROCK MUSIC IN THE '80s.

WE'VE HAD THIS GRADUAL THING.

I THINK YOU CAN'T GO WRONG WITH SELF-EXPRESSION.

THESE ISSUES ALSO SEEM LIKE SUCH A BIGGER DEAL.

>> BUT THAT'S WHAT SCHOOL IS FOR, RAY.

>> NO, EXCUSE ME, USUALLY ALL OF THESE ISSUES ARE MOSTLY NOTABLE BECAUSE THEY'RE ISSUES AS OPPOSED TO IF THEY JUST LET IT GO, NOBODY -- EVERYBODY IS STILL ABOUT IT, CROP TOPS ARE NOT GOING TO BRING THE END OF SOCIETY.

THEY'VE BEEN SAYING THIS ABOUT SO MANY THINGS ARE GOING TO RUIN OUR CHILDREN.

THIS IS JUST -- >> AND THE PARENTS ARE -- THE PARENTS THAT I'VE SEEN IN WEBSTER GROVES, I THINK YOU CAN TRUST THEIR JUDGMENT PRETTY MUCH.

>> NO, I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY -- >> OH, I TRUST THEIR JUDGMENT COMPLETELY, BUT ALL IT'S GOING TO TAKE IS ONE PARENT SAYING I THINK MY DAUGHTER SHOULD BE ABLE TO WEAR PASTIES TO SCHOOL.

SERIOUSLY, IT COULD HAPPEN.

IT'S 2021, ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.

>> WENDY, YOU CAN HAVE STANDARDS AND -- >> I THINK I KNOW WHAT JOE'S GOING TO TWEET FOR OUR QUOTE OF THE WEEK HERE ON DONNYBROOK.

>> REAL QUICK, REAL QUICK -- >> LET'S MOVE ON BECAUSE WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

>> NO ONE IS REQUIRING THEM TO WEAR -- >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

YOU ARE RIGHT, IT WAS 60 YEARS AGO, RAY, THAT CHARLES CURALT HAD HIS DOCUMENTARY 16 IN WEBSTER GROVES.

>> BY THE WAY, CHARLIEING I'M AGAINST MANDATORY CROP TOPS.

>> WELL, I'M LOOKING FOR A MUZZLE FOR YOU ONCE IN A WHILE.

HOW ABOUT A MASK, WENDY?

LAST WEEK, ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL VOTED 4-0, THREE REPUBLICANS ABSTAINED, FOR A MEASURE THAT KIND OF RECOMMENDS MASKS.

IT'S NOT A MANDATE.

IN FACT, RITA HEARD DAYS, WHO CHANGED HER VOTE ALONG WITH HER COLLEAGUE SHALONDA WEBB SAID IT'S JUST A CEREMONIAL PIECE OF PAPER BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE ENFORCED AND THEN THERE WAS AN ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE ALONG WITH THE FOUR DEMOCRATS, THEY KIND OF SAID, HEY, WE'RE ALL TOGETHER ON THIS PAGE, WE'RE SENDING A MESSAGE ABOUT THE PROBLEMS OF COVID-19.

HOW DID YOU REACT?

>> THAT -- AND I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU SAID SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, CHARLIE.

THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PREDICAMENT THAT WE'RE IN TRT ONES WHO REFUSED STEADFASTLY TO ABIDE BY THE RULES, TO GET THE VACCINE, TO WEAR THE MASK, WHAT HAVE YOU, BUT SAM PAGE IN A WAY THAT ONLY HE CAN IS BASICALLY -- THIS IS A -- HE'S TRYING TO LOOK LIKE AN EFFECTIVE LEADER.

RITA HEARD DAYS IS WORTH HER WEIGHT IN GOLD.

EVERY SYLLABLE THAT SHE UTTERS IS JUST A TRUTH BOMB BECAUSE SHE'S RIGHT.

IT'S A CEREMONIAL PIECE OF PAPER.

IT MEANS NOTHING, BUT SAM PAGE INSISTS THAT WHAT THIS MEANS IS THAT EVERYONE AGREES WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE -- IT'S JUST RIDICULOUS.

THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS SEVERAL WEEKS AGO -- >> BUT THAT'S ON RITA HEARD DAYS -- >> AND WE COULD -- >> WAIT A MINUTE.

THAT'S NOT ON SAM PAGE.

THAT'S A RITA HEARD DAYS.

WE GOT JEWISH PEOPLE BEING INSULTED, I KNOW SOME OF YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT, WE GOT OUT OF CONTROL ROCKETS AND JUST FOUL COUNCIL MEETINGS.

ALL THEY HAD TO DO, THIS IS JUST CEREMONIAL, THE POLICE AREN'T GOING TO ARREST PEOPLE, ALL THAT KIND OF STUFF, SO WHY DO WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH FIVE WEEKS OF TURMOIL?

I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU.

I AGREE WITH YOU.

>> IF THEY HAD SIMPLY NOT DONE THIS AND THIS KUMBAYA JOINT STATEMENT IS JUST -- LOOK, COUNCILWOMAN DAYS AND WEBB ARE SWIMMING UPSTREAM RIGHT NOW AND I THINK THE FOURTH OF THEM CAUGHT UP WITH THEM AND THEY'RE LIKE, WOW, I THINK THIS COULD ULTIMATELY COST US AND THAT'S WHY THEY CHANGED THEIR TUNE.

I THINK IT'S THE RAMIFICATIONS.

>> I THINK SAM PAGE IS THE ONLY SALMON HERE WHO'S SWIMMING UPSTREAM.

>> WE NEED THAT $2 MILLION COMMUNICATIONS FIRM FROM NEW YORK TO TRY TO TELL US WHAT ALL THIS MEANS BECAUSE I DON'T GET IT EITHER.

>> WELL, I THINK SAM PAGE HAS -- FIRST OF ALL, I THINK WHAT EXPLAINS THE FIRST FEW WEEKS OF, YOU KNOW, FAIRLY USELESS CHAOS WAS AN INTERNAL STRIFE BETWEEN THE DEMOCRATS -- SAM FOR WHATEVER REASON JUST ONE SHOW THE COUNTY COUNCIL, WHICH HE USED TO CHAIR, ENOUGH DEFERENCE AND RESPECT.

HE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THIS AT THE BEGINNING, I THINK.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO REMEMBER -- AND I WILL DEFEND PAGE ON THIS.

WE ARE A LITTLE TINY SPECK IN THIS ISSUE NATIONALLY.

SOME CITIES GETTING READY TO FINE BUSINESSES $25,000, I THINK IT IS, IF THEY ENFORCE A VACCINE MANDATE.

I MEAN, THIS IS EVERYWHERE.

THIS IS IN SCHOOL BOARDS, THIS WHOLE MASK THING AND VACCINE, IT'S JUST GOTTEN COMPLETELY -- >> THIS IS WHERE WE LIVE, RAY.

THIS IS WHERE WE LIVE.

>> NO, PAGE IS IN A BAD SPOT.

I DON'T THINK HE HANDLED IT WELL, BUT ON THE SUBSTANCE THEREFORE, HE'S RIGHT, THE COUNTY COUNCIL RUNS ARE WRONG.

>> LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING.

I THINK RITA HEARD DAYS IS ON TO SOMETHING.

SHE ASKED FOR FUNDS TO GO INTO THE STREETS OF HER DISTRICT, WHICH HAPPENS TOFRT LOWEST VACCINATION RATE, TIM FITCH'S IS THE HIGHEST AS IT TURNS OUT, AND IT WAS DENIED BY THE COUNTY.

YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY THE VACCINE THAT'S THE KEY HERE.

THIS MASK CONVERSATION IS RIDICULOUS.

I FEEL THE SAME WAY IN THE CITY.

>> BUT CHARLIE -- >> THE SENIORS ARE ONLY VACCINATED AT THE RATE OF 61%.

IT'S 85% IN ST. CHARLES.

THESE ARE THE SENIORS IN THE CITY AND WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT MASKS WHEN THE REAL ANSWER TO THIS PANDEMIC IS THE VACCINE.

>> CHARLIE, I AGREE WITH THAT.

I AGREE WITH THAT, BUT THE MESSAGE -- ALL RIGHT.

THE MESSAGE IS OUT THERE.

OKAY?

I DON'T WANT TO HEAR "I DON'T UNDERSTAND," OR "THEY'RE GOING TO PUT A CHIP IN MY BODY," OR "I DON'T HAVE A RIDE."

THERE'S RIDES, THERE'S EDUCATION, THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR MONTHS.

NOW IT'S JUST TIME TO JUST, HEY, IF YOU'RE NOT VACCINATED, IT'S BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO GET VACCINATED.

SO -- >> AND THE HEALTH PROS ALL TELL YOU IT'S A FALSE CHOICE BETWEEN MASKS AND VACCINE.

THEY WORK TOGETHER.

YOU NEED THEM BOTH.

IF YOU'RE VACCINATED, YOU SHOULD BE MASKED.

AND THE FACT IS -- >> NO, NO, DON'T FORGET -- >> THERE'S NO CONTRADICTION THERE, NONE, ZERO.

>> THE KEY REALLY IS THE VACCINE -- >> NO THE KEY -- THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE SAYING.

THEY'RE NOT SAYING -- MAYBE DR. BRENNAN THINKS THAT.

THE PROS ALL SAY IT'S A COMBINATION OF VACCINE AND MASKING.

>> BUT RAY, WE HAVE LIMITED RESOURCES TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT AND EVERYTHING TODAY SHOULD BE ON VACCINES.

>> NO, EVERYTHING ON VACCINES.

CHARLIE, WHO IN AMERICA DOES NOT KNOW THAT THEY SHOULD GET VACCINATED?

I DEFY YOU TO TELL ME ANYBODY THAT -- >> PEOPLE WHO WORK IN NURSING HOMES, ALVIN.

>> NO, NO.

THAT'S I CHOOSE NOT TO DO IT, BUT THEY KNOW IT'S THERE, IT'S AVAILABLE, THEY COULD GET IT DONE.

>> OKAY, WELL MY -- RAY AND OTHERS, MY SOLUTION IS THAT IF YOU ARE UNVACCINATED AND YOU GO TO THE HOSPITAL AND YOU -- BECAUSE OF COVID-19, YOU PAY YOUR OWN WAY.

AND IF YOU'RE AN EMPLOYEE OF THE STATE, THE CITY, THE NURSING HOME, AND YOU DECIDE TO GOWN VACCINATED AND YOUR PART OF THE HEALTH PLAN, YOU PAY A HIGHER PREMIUM.

$200 A NO OR WHATEVER THE COUNTY SAYS.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU.

>> THAT'S NOT REAL, CHARLIE.

LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING.

YOU KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO IF YOU PUT ME IN CHARGE, AND MAYBE I'M AUDITIONING FOR THE $2 MILLION POSITION, I WOULD FEATURE A NATIONAL CAMPAIGN FEATURING MEMBERS OF THE GREATEST GENERATION, GUYS 90, WHATEVER THEY ARE, LOOKING INTO THE CAMERA AND SAY, LISTEN, WE HAD SOMETHING CALLED SHARED SACRIFICE.

GET WITH IT.

THAT'S WHAT WE DID.

SOME PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE THE WAR, THEY STILL RATIONED.

WE NEED TO GET BACK TO A CONCEPT WHERE THE COUNTRY BELIEVES IN SHARED SACRIFICE, AND THAT -- >> AND THE GREATER GOOD.

>> THAT'S A GREAT IDEA, BUT DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT THE ANTI-VAXXERS AND THE TRUMP PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LISTEN TO THOSE PEOPLE AND GO, YEAH, THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO?

>> IT'S A BETTER IDEA -- >> DONALD TRUMP WAS BOOED.

>> YOU KNOW WHY BILL IS RIGHT?

IT'S BECAUSE OUR APPETITE FOR MEDIA IS SO DIFFERENT.

THE PEOPLE YOU'RE TRYING TO REACH, RAY, ARE GOING TO BE WATCHING NEWS MAX AND ONE AMERICA, THEY'LL NEVER HEAR A WORD.

>> IF THEY HAD A BUNCH OF 90-YEAR-OLD VETERANS, I THINK THEY'D LISTEN.

>> YOU MIGHT BE RIGHT.

LET ME ASK YOU WHILE YOU'RE AT IT -- >> DONALD TRUMP WAS BOOED THIS WEEK WHEN HE ASKED PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATED, JUST SAYING.

>> RAY, WHAT ABOUT THE PLANS TO HAVE A BIG MAKEOVER FOR 7th STREET IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS CONNECTING THE CONVENTION CENTER TO BALLPARK VILLAGE?

THIS ANNOUNCEMENT CAME AFTER WE HAD THAT DISCUSSION LAST WEEK BASED ON AN ARTICLE YOU WROTE IN THE RIVERFRONT TIMES THAT, YOU KNOW, CENTRAL CORRIDORS FINE AND GOOD, BUT WE HAVE TO START CONCENTRATING ON NORTH ST. LOUIS AND PARTS OF SOUTH ST. LOUIS AND THE BOARD OF ALDER MEN HAD PUT IN SOME MONEY FOR FOUR NORTH ST. LOUIS STREETS.

THAT HE WAS TAKEN OUT BY THE MAYOR AND NOW WE'VE GOT A HOMELESS ENCAMPMENT GOING CRAZY ON TUCKER, WE HAVE RAIN NIGHTCLUB AND SHOOTINGS THERE, AND THE ANSWER IS TO IMPROVE 7th STREET?

REALLY?

>> IT'S A LITTLE LIKE MASKS AND VACCINES.

YOU CAN DO BOTH.

I THINK THE IDEA OF A PROJECT ALONG 7th STREET IS FINE.

THE IDEA OF A PRIVATE-PUBLIC KIND OF CONTRIBUTION, AND IF I READ IT CORRECTLY IN THE PAPER, IT'S A LOT OF THE FOLKS WHO ARE IMPACTED BY IT, PUTTING UP SOME MONEY AND THEN THE GOVERNMENT INFRASTRUCTURE PIECE IS PART OF IT, AND I THINK IT'S A REALLY GOOD PROJECT.

I THINK WE'RE STILL WAITING FOR THE CAPITAL TO FILL UP IN NORTH CITY AND SOUTH GRAND, BUT I DON'T THINK -- I KNOW THIS ISN'T GREATER ST. LOUIS'S PROJECT.

I KNOW JASON HALL WAS PART OF -- WAS IN THE PAPER ABOUT IT AND DID A PRESS RELEASE AT THEIR SIGHT AND IT DOES SPEAK TO ONE OF THE POINTS I MADE ABOUT A LITTLE BIT OF A LACK OF TRANSPARENCY BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT THEY DO AND THEN THEY DO IT, BUT IF GREATER ST. LOUIS IS PART OF THIS, GOOD FOR THEM.

IT'S NOT LIKE I WROTE A COLUMN SAYING THEY SHOULD DO NOTHING.

>> LET ME INTERRUPT YOU FOR JUST A MINUTE.

TO FIX DOWNTOWN AT ALL, IT ISN'T THE SIDEWALKS AND STREETS GOING FROM BALLPARK VILLAGE TO THE CONVENTION CENTER.

IT'S REALLY ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY, AND ANY -- THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN CARE OF BEFORE THEY WORK ON SIDEWALKS THAT MAKE IT EASIER TO WALK FROM BALLPARK VILLAGE.

I MEAN, IT'S REALLY PRIORITIES ALL MESSED UP, IF YOU ASK ME.

>> ALL MONEY SHOULD GO TO COPS ON EVERY CORNER.

I KNOW I'VE SAID IT A THOUSAND TIMES, MEMPHIS, OTHER PLACES, CONS ON EVERY CORNER FROM THURSDAY TO SUNDAY NIGHT, COPS ON EVERY CORNER.

PUT YOUR MONEY INTO THAT.

>> AND I AGREE WITH ALL OF YOU.

BALLPARK VILLAGE IS AWFULLY IMPORTANT.

I MEAN, WHETHER WE WANT TO ADMIT IT OR NOT, IT'S A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF OUR REAL ESTATE DOWNTOWN, SO ANYTHING THEY CAN DO WHILE THE CRIME PROBLEM IS BEING ADDRESSED, TO KEEP BALLPARK VILLAGE USER FRIENDLY TO THE TOURISTS WHO WANT TO FEEL SAFE, WHO WILL STILL COME, I CAN'T BELIEVE I HEAR MYSELF SAYING THIS, BUT I -- I'M TOTALLY WITH THIS.

>> OH, I THINK BILL IS RIGHT.

I MEAN, THE SQUARE EMPLOYEES ARE STAYING HOME.

THEY'VE BEEN TOLD THEY'RE TEMPORARILY CLOSING THEIR NEW ALMOST $100 MILLION, 900 NORTH TUCKER BECAUSE THE PROBLEMS OF CRIME AND HOMELESSNESS IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS.

IT'S MIND BOGGLING.

I'VE NEVER SEEN A COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY SAY THIS BEFORE AND WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT BIKE PATHS AND STREET LIGHTING ON 7th STREET AND IMPROVED SIDEWALKS?

YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.

>> BUT YOU CAN'T CEASE TO EXIST, YOU CAN'T STOP TAKING CARE OF ALL OF THE PROPERTY THAT IS BEING USED IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS BY CITIZENS, CAN YOU?

I MEAN, JUST UNTIL -- THIS FREEZE LET'S JUST SEAL OFF EVERY STREET UNTIL WE -- >> OKAY, DO YOU THINK NOTICES PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED WITH THE BIKE PATH ON 7th STREET IN DOWNTOWN OR THE HOMELESS AND THE HOMICIDES?

>> I THINK YOU CAN ADDRESS ALL THREE.

>> WELL, LET'S START WITH THE -- >> WE'RE ONLY ADDRESSING THE SIDEWALKS -- >> I KEEP WAITING, I KEEP WAITING.

>> YOU GUYS THINK THE CITY WAS JUST A GIANT POLICE DEPARTMENT.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY AN IMPORTANT PART OF WHAT THE CITY DOES.

I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO DEFUND THE POLICE, I DO THINK THE INITIATIVES THAT THEY HAVE TALKED ABOUT TAKING, TRY TO ERADICATE CAUSES OF CRIME, BE IT MORE RECREATION CENTERS, WHATEVER THINGS THEY CAN DO TO ATTACK THE CAUSES IS AN IMPORTANT FUNCTION OF IT.

I AGREE WITH EVERYBODY WHO WANTS TO -- THERE DEFINITELY NEEDS TO BE A GREATER POLICE PRESENCE.

>> ALVIN, HOW ABOUT YOU?

DO YOU THINK THAT RITA HEARD DAYS OF THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL IS WITHIN HER RIGHT TO WITHHOLD MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR THE EXPANSION OF THE CONVENTION CENTER IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS UNTIL HER DISTRICT GETS A RECREATION COMPLEX?

THAT'S WHAT SHE'S THREATENED.

>> WELL, I -- THIS SEEMS TO BE THE PLEA OF THE DAY.

I THINK YOU CAN DO BOTH.

BUT NO, THE NORTH COUNTY REC CENTER NEEDS TO BE A PRIORITY AND I WOULD SAY TO COUNTY EXECUTIVE PAGE, THAT WAS A PROMISE AND THAT'S A PROMISE THAT SHOULD BE KEPT.

>> I AGREE.

>> AND AS THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE, NOW, YOU CAN TAKE A TROLL AND GET AFTER THAT, REGARDLESS OF WHAT RITA DAYS OR ANYBODY ELSE WANTS TO SAY.

LISTEN, THE COUNTY SAID IT WAS GOING TO GET DONE, SO GET THAT DONE FIRST AND FOREMOST.

>> THERE YOU GO.

ONE MINUTE.

>> I HAVE A QUESTION REAL QUICK.

WHY SHOULD SHE HAVE TO BE AFTER THIS?

IN OTHER WORDS, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH RITA, BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S CRITICAL THAT WE SUPPORT THE CONVENTION CENTER AS WE'RE OBLIGATED TO.

MY QUESTION IS WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE PAGE ADMINISTRATION THAT THAT SHOULD EVEN HAVE BEEN A CHOICE?

WHY AREN'T THEY DOING BOTH, AGAIN AS THE THEME GOES, BUT I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SHE'S EVEN IN THAT SITUATION?

>> SHE'S TRYING TO TAKE CONTROL OF A SITUATION BECAUSE SHE PUT HERSELF IN A HORRIBLE SITUATION AS FAR AS THIS WHOLE MASK REGULATION, MANDATE -- >> I DON'T THINK SHE DID AT ALL.

I'M SORRY, I DON'T THINK SHE DID AT ALL.

>> WHAT, ON THE MASKS?

YOU THOUGHT SHE WAS RIGHT ON THE MASKS?

>> YEAH.

>> VOTING AGAINST IT?

>> HEY, HOLD YOUR THOUGHTS BECAUSE THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FOR THIS EDITION.

>> MY PROBLEM WAS SAM PAGE AND THE WAY HE DID IT.

>> THANKS, EVERYBODY, WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

>> I'LL CALL YOU, ALVIN.

>> WE HAVE NEXT UP, ROBERT CRISS, PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF EARTH AND PLANETARY SCIENCES AT WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT ALL THIS RAIN AND FLOODING, ALVIN AND BILL POSING THE QUESTIONS NEXT.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>>> HEY, WELL THANK YOU FOR HANGING WITH US.

BILL McCLELLAN, ALVIN REID HERE WITH YOU FOR NEXT UP.

AND THE LAID RICHARD PRYOR ONCE SAID IN ONE OF HIS SKITS, CAN'T NOBODY STOP NO WATER WHERE IT WANTS TO GO, BUT OUR GUEST TONIGHT, BOB CRISS, PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF EARTH AND PLANETARY SCIENCE OF WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY, HE THINKS WE CANS TO SOME OF THIS WATER FROM RUNNING RAM MANHATTAN.

THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY.

>> MY FLURRY.

>> AS WE SEE THE REMNANTS OF HURRICANE IDA ROAR THROUGH THE EAST COAST AND THERE'S FLOODING EVERYWHERE AND AS MANY OF US WHO LIVE IN DEVELOPMENTS NEAR A CREEK, THE CREEK MIGHT NOT BE THE PROBLEM, BUT LIKE THE HOUSING COMPLEXES THAT THEY BUILT AND IT'S NOW WHERE IT WAS WOODS, NOW COVERED WITH CONCRETE, CEMENT, THIS IS CAUSING A PROBLEM, ISN'T IT?

>> THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM AND ONE OF THE PECULIAR THINGS IS THAT FLASH FLOODING, THERE'S PLENTY OF BIG RIVERS, REGIONAL FLOODING SEEMED TO GET MOST OF THE PRESS AND CAPTURED THE POPULAR MINE.

THE 1993 FLOOD WAS BORING COMPARED TO WHAT'S HAPPENING ON SMALL CREEKS IN OUR NEIGHBORHOODS.

FIRST OF ALL, THE '93 FLOOD THAT GETS ALL THE PRESS AND THE ATTENTION AS BEING THE GREAT ONE, THAT LASTED MONTHS.

THERE'S PLENTY OF TIME FOR PICTURES OF GUYS SLOGGING AROUND THROUGH MUD AND DRIZZLE, STACKING SANDBAGS, POLITICIANS FLY IN WITH THEIR HELICOPTERS AND MAKE THEIR SPEECHES.

THOSE THINGS ARE BORING.

WE JUST HAD MORE PEOPLE KILLED IN NEW YORK, PENNSYLVANIA, CONNECTICUT, NEW JERSEY THAN DIED IN 1993.

FLASH FLOODING HAPPENS CLOSE TO PEOPLE, IT HAPPENS CLOSE TO VALUABLE PROPERTY.

THESE AREN'T THE MUD FLATS DOWN BY THE RIVER, THIS IS RIGHT IN OUR OWN NEIGHBORHOOD AND WE'VE EVEN HAD PROBLEMS IN THE LAST FEW DAYS IN ST. LOUIS.

IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY PHENOMENA THAT DEVELOPED RAPIDLY, IT'S EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, AND IT'S REALLY NOT APPRECIATED VERY MUCH.

AND YOU ARE RIGHT, ALVIN.

IT'S PUTTING STUFF IN HARM'S WAY UNNECESSARILY THAT'S THE ROOT -- THE FUNDAMENTAL ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.

>> PROFESSOR, IN JULY, YOU WERE INTERVIEWED BY BRICE GRAY AND THE POST-DISPATCH AND YOU WERE SAYING THAT RIVER DES PERES IS THE -- A MAJOR, MAJOR PROBLEM AND, OF COURSE, WE'VE HAD PROBLEMS THERE.

AND IT SOUNDED VERY BLEAK, LIKE WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE HAVING PROBLEMS THERE, SO IF YOU WOULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT RIVER DES PERES AND THEN I WANT TO KNOW IF YOU'RE WORKING WITH ANYBODY ON THIS, IF THE CITY IS COOPERATIVE OR CORPS OF ENGINEERS.

WHO DO YOU WORK WITH WHEN YOU'VE IDENTIFIED A PROBLEM?

BUT FIRST TALK ABOUT RIVER DEFAIR A MINUTE.

>> SO I'M ON THE UNIVERSITY CITY STORM WATER COMMISSION AND I HAVE SOME EXCELLENT COLLEAGUES, MOSTLY ENGINEERS, WITH ONE PHYSICIST ALSO ON THE COMMISSION.

WE SET UP AN EARLY WARNING SYSTEM AND WE'RE STILL DEVELOPING IT AND GETTING IT IMPLEMENTED, BUT SO FAR AS THE UPPER RIVER DES PERES GOES, IT IS ONE OF THE MOST FLASH FLOOD-PRONE CREEKS IF NOT THE WORST IN MISSOURI.

IT JUST LESS THAN TWO DAYS AGO, WE HAD LESS THAN AN INCH OF RAIN.

NOW, THIS IS A DAY AFTER THE BIG CENTRAL WEST END FLOOD.

WE HAD AN INCH OF RAIN LESS AND THE UPPER RIVER DES PERES AT OUR GAUGING STATIONS ROSE EIGHT FEET IN AN HOUR.

THE FLOW OF THE CREEK WENT FROM LESS THAN ONE CUBIC FOOT A SECOND TO OVER 2100 CUBIC FEET A SECOND IN LESS THAN AN HOUR.

THESE SMALL CREEKS ARE SO VOLATILE AND WHAT WE HAVE DONE IS WE'VE PUT ALL KINDS OF HOMES AND DEVELOPMENTS VERY CLOSE TO THE CREEK WHERE THEY DON'T BELONG.

THE BUYOUTS ALONG WILSON AVENUE AFTER THIS BIG 2008 SO-CALLED HURRICANE IKE REMNANT FLOOD, THAT USED TO BE ON A MEANDERING STREAM THROUGH THERE.

THAT IS NOT THE PLACE YOU BUILD HOMES, AND YET, WE BUILD THEM PLACES AND THEN WE BUY THEM OUT.

WE ACTUALLY HAD FATALITIES THERE.

THAT PLACE FLOODS ALL THE TIME.

IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS SCENARIO WE'VE CREATED.

BUT THE HEART OF IT, THERE'S IMPERVIOUS SURFACES, CLIMATE CHANGE, ALL KINDS OF THINGS WE CAN TALK ABOUT, BUT THE HEART OF IT IS BUILDING INCORRECTLY, CHANNELIZING STREAMS AND PUTTING STUFF WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG.

>> WELL, TALKING ABOUT THE BUYOUTS -- >> EXCUSE ME.

>> NO, GO AHEAD, BILL.

>> WHAT AGENCY DID THE BUYOUTS IN 2000 -- AFTER THE 2008 FLOOD AND ARE THERE MORE ON THE HORIZON, YOU THINK?

>> I HOPE THERE ARE MORE ON THE HORIZON BECAUSE THAT IS THE CORRECT SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM.

GENERALLY, THOUGH, WE TRY TO ENGINEER OUR STREAMS MORE, AND THAT ACTUALLY MAKES THEM WORSE.

IF YOU'VE ALREADY GOT A PROBLEM, YOU CHANNELIZE THE STREAM, AND YOU MAKE THE WATER FLOW FASTER.

THE PROBLEM WITH OUR URBAN FLASH FLOODS IS THAT IT'S TOO MUCH DELIVERY OF WATER TOO FAST TO THE CREEKS, AND YOU OVERWHELM THE CAPACITY OF THE CHANNEL TO CARRY THE WATER, THEN IT GOES OVER LAND AND REOCCUPIES THE FLOODPLAIN, BUT IT'S ACCELERATION OF THE WATER THAT'S THE PRINCIPAL PROBLEM AND THAT'S IMPERVIOUS SURFACES THAT DO THAT, THE CHANNELIZATION DOES THAT.

SO WE HAVE OVER-ENGINEERED OUR STREAMS, AND THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER IS OVER-ENGINEERED AND CHANNELIZED, AND WHICH IS WHY THE OFFICE HERE IN ST. LOUIS AND POINTS SOUTH IS ONE OF THE MOST FLOOD-PRONE STRETCHES OF THE RIVER IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S TOO NARROW.

THE RIVER IS LESS THAN HALF AS WIDE AS IT WAS HISTORICALLY.

SO IS THE MISSOURI RIVER CLEAR ACROSS THE STREET.

THEY'RE LESS THAN HALF AS WIDE.

YOU'VE TAKEN THE MEANDERS OUT, DISCONNECTED THE RIVERS FROM THEIR NATURAL FLOODPLAINS, SO WE'VE REMOVED THE STORAGE CAPACITY OF THE RIVER WHILE ACCELERATING THE WATER.

THEN WHEN IT RAINS, YOU GET TOO MUCH TOO QUICKLY.

PRETTY SIMPLE, BUT THE GENERAL IDEA IS, OH, WE'VE GOT A PROBLEM BECAUSE WE SCREWED UP THE RIVER TOO MUCH, SO GIVE US MORE MONEY SO WE CAN SCREW IT UP SOME MORE.

I DON'T LIKE THAT APPROACH.

>> ALL RIGHT, IF YOU USE THAT MONEY IN THE RIGHT WAY, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

WOULD YOU JUST TAKE OUT SEEM OF THE LEVEES AND -- SOME OF THE LEVEES AND CREATE AREAS KIND OF LIKE WHEN YOU BUILD A MAN MADE LAKE THAT, HEY, I'M SORRY THAT THERE'S STUFF HERE, BUT IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO MOVE AND BE BOUGHT OUT BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE NOW LIVING ON WHAT USED TO BE THE FLOODPLAIN AND NOW AGAIN IS THE FLOODPLAIN.

I MEAN, IS THAT DOABLE?

>> YES, IT IS.

WHAT WE'RE DOING IS NOT DOABLE.

IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

WE HAVE REPEATEDLY FLOODED PROPERTIES AND THOSE SHOULD BE BOUGHT OUT.

THAT'S THE BEST SOLUTION, NOT MORE ENGINEERING.

THE OTHER THING, AND IT'S ALWAYS TRYING TO RUN THE CLOCK BACKWARDS, IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE, BUT WHERE WE HAVE OPPORTUNITIES, WE SHOULD TRY TO RESTORE SOME OF THE NATURAL FUNCTION OF THE WATERSHED.

>> A FOLLOW-UP ON THAT.

>> TO THE EXTENT WE CAN.

>> OKAY, LIKE THE CREEK THAT RUNS NEAR MY HOUSE, IT'S LITERALLY ABOUT 20 YARDS FROM ONE CORNER OF MY BACKYARD AND ULTIMATELY, I GUESS IT ENDS UP IN THE RIVER DES PERES.

IT'S A NATURAL CREEK.

I LIVE ON ONE OF THOSE -- THERE'S A SLIGHT HILL AND THEN THE CREEK IS RIGHT WHERE IT KIND OF FLATTENS OUT.

I GUESS 100,000 YEARS AGO OR 10,000 OR WHATEVER, THIS IS WHAT ACTUALLY CREATED THE GEOGRAPHY OF WHERE I LIVE IN SOUTHEAST KIRKWOOD.

NOW, MORE WATER IS RUNNING INTO IT BECAUSE OF ALL THE DEVELOPMENT AND -- BUT WHAT CAN BE DONE WITH THOSE THAT MAYBE COULD REDUCE, YOU KNOW, THE WATER THAT IT PUSHES ON?

COULD THEY BE -- YOU KNOW, WERE IT POSSIBLE, COULD THEY BE WIDENED, COULD THEY BE DEEP PENNED, OR THAT, SINCE IT WAS A NATURAL CREEK TO BEGIN WITH, IT JUST HAS TO DEAL WITH THE WATER IT TAKES IN?

>> THE FIRST THING WE HAVE TO DO IS RECOGNIZE WE HAVE A PROBLEM.

IT'S LIKE ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS.

UNTIL YOU FIGURE OUT THAT YOU'RE A DRUNK OR HAVE A DRINKING PROBLEM, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO CORRECT THE PROBLEM.

RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS IT?

THREE DAYS AGO, WE HAD FLOODING ON KIRKWOOD AVENUE DOWN IF WEBSTER GROVES.

THAT SITE IS EXACTLY ADJACENT TO A PLANNED NEW DEVELOPMENT.

>> YES.

>> THEY'RE PLANNING TO BUILD THERE WITH A TIF.

HOW STUPID.

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH OUR REGION?

WE'RE ALMOST A POSTER CHILD FOR STUPID DEVELOPMENT POST-1993.

WE HAVE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE NEW INVESTMENT IN CHESTERFIELD VALLEY, WE HAVE DISASTROUS PROJECTS, THE 370 PREMIER LEVEE NEAR ST. PETERS.

GO LOOK AT IT, THERE'S NOTHING THERE.

THERE'S AN RV PARK.

THEY LEVELED OFF A BIG SECTION OF LAND AND NOTHING CAME.

WE HAVE ST. LOUIS MILLS, MARYLAND HEIGHTS REPEATEDLY TRYING FOR MORE THAN A DECADE FOR BUILD UP THE AREA NEAR CREVE COEUR LAKE IN THE HOWARD BENLEVY DISTRICT.

WE KEEP BUILDING AND BUILDING AND THROWING STUFF WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG.

THE FIRST THING WE HAVE TO DO IS QUIT DOING WHAT WE'RE DOING, AND THEN WE CAN BEGIN TO TRY TO FIX THE PROBLEM, BUT WE'RE MAKING IT WORSE FASTER THAN WE'RE FIXING ANYTHING.

>> PROFESSOR, YOU MENTIONED THE DEVELOPMENT IN WEBSTER GROVES AND IT'S CALLED SHADY CREEK, YOU KNOW, THAT FLOODED KIRKWOOD.

AND I WAS READING ABOUT IT TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IF THIS IS GOOD OR BAD PLAN OR ANYTHING, AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEHIND THE DEVELOPMENT SAY THAT THIS DEVELOPMENT IS GOING TO HELP SHADY CREEK, AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST THE DEVELOPMENT SAY YOU CAN'T HAVE A BIG DEVELOPMENT RIGHT HERE, IT'S JUST GOING TO CREATE MORE PROBLEMS.

HOW DO WE SORT THIS OUT?

AND WHAT'S YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT SHADY CREEK AND THE DEVELOPMENT?

>> YES, THIS PARTICULAR CREEK, I ACTUALLY WALKED THAT CREEK, SOME SECTION OF IT IN THAT REGION LESS THAN A MONTH AGO.

>> OKAY.

>> AND IT HAD MEADOWS, THERE WERE SOME INVERTEBRATES AND STUFF.

IT WAS A NICE CREEK, VEGETATED BENDS.

IT WAS BEGINNING TO SHOW SIGNS OF FLASH FLOODING PROBLEMS WITH REMOVAL OF SOME OF THE FINEST SEDIMENTS AND STUFF, BUT IT WAS IN PRETTY GOOD SHAPE AS A ST. LOUIS CREEK GOES IN OUR MUNICIPAL BOUNDARIES.

NOT LIKE OUT IN THE COUNTRY OR SOMETHING.

IT WAS IN FAIRLY GOOD SHAPE.

THERE ARE PROBLEMS, THOUGH, DOWNSTREAM AND THIS DEVELOPMENT, YOU WANT MY TWO CENT S ON THE DIVORGEGT IT'S TOTALLY -- ON THE DEVELOPMENT, IT'S TOTALLY OUT OF CHARACTER FOR WEBSTER GROVES.

IT'S GOING TO BE MORE IMPERVIOUS SURFACE, THEY WILL CHANNELIZE THAT SECTION OF THE CREEK, MORE ACRES FOR MORE DEVELOPMENT AND RAPID RUNOFF.

IT'S THE WRONG THING TO DO IN THE WRONG PLACE.

WE'LL HAVE TRAFFIC CONGESTION PROBLEMS WITH ALL THE PEOPLE THEY'LL MOVE IN, IT'S A QUAINT OLD NEIGHBORHOOD AND WHAT A STUPID THING TO DO.

TO EXPECT A TIF TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE F THESE IDEAS WERE SO GREAT, THEY OUGHT TO PAY FOR THEMSELVES.

>> THANK YOU.

>> DOCTOR, YOU SAID THE TWO MAGIC WORDS A LITTLE EARLIER.

CLIMATE IMPACT.

YOU KNOW, IT'S ALL PART OF IT, TOO, AND IF WE'RE DOING THE WRONG THINGS AND BUILDING, AND AS YOU SAY, JUST STUPID, THEN IT JUST BE REALLY STUPID TO IGNORE WHAT'S GOING ON WITH OUR ATMOSPHERE.

>> THERE, IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE THAT THE ATMOSPHERE IS A VERY SMALL RESERVOIR OF MATERIAL.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE FLYING IN A PLANE AT 40,000 FEET OR 35,000 FEET, MORE THAN HALF OF THE ATMOSPHERE IS BELOW YOU.

EVEN THOUGH YOU SEE THE AURORA AND SHOOTING STARS AND STUFF 100 KILL LOMETERS HIGHER, BUT MOST OF THE WEIGHT OF THE ATMOSPHERE IS REALLY HUGGING THE EARTH AND THE TOTAL -- IF YOU THINK OF THE OCEANS, THEY'RE ON AVERAGE 3.8 KILOMETERS DEEP, ALL THE ATMOSPHERE, IF YOU COULD CONDENSE IT INTO A LIQUID, IT WOULD ONLY BE WORTH TEN METERS.

SO IT'S A TINY RESERVOIR, IT'S EASILY POLLUTED AND CONTAMINATED.

I AM CERTAINLY CONCERNED ABOUT JET TRAFFIC, POLLUTION OF THIS RIVER ATMOSPHERE UP HIGH.

I'M CERTAINLY CONCERNED ABOUT THINKING OF MILLIONAIRES FLYING TO SPACE AND PUTTING ALL KINDS OF STUFF HIGH IN THE ATMOSPHERE, REALLY HIGH UP.

I THINK THAT'S REALLY DUMB.

IT'S A FRAGILE, SMALL RESERVOIR OF MATERIAL, EASILY CONTAMINATED, AND THE INTERFACE BETWEEN -- WHAT CONTROLS EARTH'S CLIMATE IS THE INTERSPACE BETWEEN THE SUN AND THE SURFACE, SOMEWHAT MODERATED BY THIS LITTLE ATMOSPHERIC LAYER WE HAVE AND WE ARE CERTAINLY CHANGING THE SMALL AREA OF THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH AND WE'RE DRAMATICALLY CHANGING ITS REFLECTIVITY, THE AMOUNT OF VEGETATION.

WE'RE DRAMATICALLY CHANGE THE ATMOSPHERE AND I'M AS MUCH WORRIED ABOUT CONTRAILS.

A LOT OF TIMES YOU LOOK AT THE SKY, ALMOST EVERY CLOUD YOU SEE, YOU THINK YOU'RE SEEING CLOUDS AND THEY'RE CONTRAILS.

START LOOKING.

THAT'S GOING TO HAVE A REAL EFFECT.

>> AND PROFESSOR, YOU THINK THAT THE SMALL STREAMS ARE A BIGGER PROBLEM THAN THE BIG RIVERS, RIGHT?

I MEAN, THAT -- >> THEY'RE A PROBLEM, BILL, BECAUSE THEY'RE CLOSE TO US.

THEY'RE RIGHT IN OUR BACKYARDS.

THEY'RE CLOSE TO CANKIDS, THEY'RE CLOSE TO PROPERTY.

THERE'S A PROXIMITY TO PEOPLE AND THE RAPIDITY WITH WHICH HIGH FLOWS ARE -- AND HIGH WATER LEVELS ARE DELIVERED.

THESE STREAMS, YOU COULD PARK YOUR CAR, WALK INTO A STORE, AND COME OUT AND SEE A RUINED CAR.

PEOPLE AREN'T USED TO THIS.

YOU CAN GO TO BED AND WAKE UP AND FIND YOUR -- YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF YOUR HOUSE.

>> WELL, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IT HASN'T GOTTEN MORE PRESS AND MORE PUBLICITY?

I MEAN, IT'S STILL THE BIG RIVERS THAT PEOPLE TALK ABOUT.

>> I KNOW.

>> THE MISSISSIPPI AND THE MISSOURI.

WHO'S AT FAULT ON THIS?

I MEAN, HOW COME WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THIS?

>> WELL, WE HAD A GREAT TIME.

WE WALKED THE CREEK, WENT DOWN THERE, HAD A GREAT PHOTOGRAPHER THAT TOOK SOME -- >> YEAH, IT WAS A GREAT STORY.

>> I THINK IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING STORY.

THESE THINGS ARE LOCAL, THOUGH.

WHAT JUST HAPPENED AT CENTRAL WEST END, THAT PARTICULAR DAY, WE ONLY HAD A TENTH OF AN INCH AND YOU SEE IT -- I MEAN, THE BIG FLOOD AFFECTS A LOT MORE PEOPLE AT ONCE, BUT AGAIN, THEY'RE SLOW-MOVING AND BORING.

THE SMALL CREEKS, WHAT THEY DO IS DRAMATIC.

WE'VE HAD SEVERAL EXAMPLES IN THE LAST THREE DAYS OF JUST WHAT THESE THINGS CAN DO.

ANOTHER THING TO THINK ABOUT, BILL, IS THAT -- YOU KNOW, THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER DURING 1993 -- >> YES.

>> -- THE HIGHEST FLOW WAS ONLY SIX TIMES THE AVERAGE.

>> RIGHT.

>> JUST IN U-CITY TWO DAYS AGO, WE WENT UP A FACTOR OF 2,000 AND WE DID IT IN AN HOUR.

2,000 TIMES MORE WATER THAN YOU HAD AN HOUR EARLIER.

I MEAN, THESE THINGS ARE DRAMATIC.

AND THEY CATCH PEOPLE BY SURPRISE AND SOMETIMES THERE'S FATALITIES.

THERE'S THAT LOT OF PROPERTY DAMAGE.

>> WE ACTUALLY -- >> IT'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

>> NEAR THE AIRPORT, I THINK THIS WAS MAYBE A MONTH, MONTH AND A HALF AGO, A LITTLE GIRL, THEY GOT OUT OF THEIR CAR AND THE LITTLE GIRL GOT, YOU KNOW, I GUESS INTO IT, LIKE A DRAINAGE SYSTEM AND DIED.

I'M SURE, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU READ THAT OR HEARD THAT, YOU WERE THINKING THAT THAT'S -- THAT WAS JUST TOTALLY UNNECESSARY.

YOU KNOW, JUST -- AND THAT LEADS ME TO WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY, WAS I GREW UP KIND OF, THE TERM FLASH FLOOD WAS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED IN RURAL AREAS OR NOT AROUND WHERE I LIVED, AND THAT MAY HAVE CHANGED, BUT EVEN SO, I STILL -- THAT TERM DOESN'T, LIKE, FRIGHTEN ME.

AND SO OBVIOUSLY MAYBE I'M PART OF THE PROBLEM.

AND I LIVE BY A CREEK, AND IT REALLY NEVER COMES OVER ITS BANKS.

IT DOES RUN, YOU KNOW, LIKE PRETTY STRONG SOMETIMES, BUT THE WHOLE FLASH FLOOD STILL DOESN'T, LIKE, RING AN ALARM.

THERE'S A FLASH FLOOD WARNING IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY OR ST. LOUIS CITY AND WHEN IT COMES UP, I'M NOT THINKING, OH WOW, I BETTER BE WATCHING THAT CREEK OUT THERE.

HOW DO WE CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT YOU HEAR FLASH FLOOD, YOU BETTER BE CONCERNED?

>> YEAH, THEY HAPPEN SO RAPIDLY, IT'S HARD TO GET THE WARNINGS OUT.

EVEN WITH OUR EARLY WARNING SYSTEM THAT WE'RE DEVELOPING, ME AND THIS FELLOW NAMED ERIC STEIN, ONE OF OUR STORM WATER COMMISSIONERS, REALLY DONE A LOT OF HEAVY LIFTING ON IDENTIFY TG -- IDENTIFYING EQUIPMENT AND STUFF TO MAKE THIS POSSIBLE, WE CAN HARDLY GET A HALF HOUR, 45-MINUTE TIME TO GET A HEADS-UP.

SO THE WARNING TIME IS SHORT.

ONE OF THE WAYS PEOPLE REALLY GET KILLED IS TRYING TO DRIVE THEIR CARS THROUGH FLOODED WATERS, AND BOY, YOU BETTER WATCH THAT.

YOUR CAR CAN STALL.

AS SOON AS -- THESE WATERS ARE FAST AND THEY GOT A LOT OF DEBRIS IN THEM, AND AS SOON AS YOUR CAR IS IN FLOATATION, AND YOU GOT NO ACCELERATION, NO STARING, NO BRAKES, AND YOU'RE GOING DOWN, YOU'RE IN A SINKING BOAT.

IT IS DANGEROUS, PEOPLE GET OUT OF THE CAR TO WHAT?

YOU'RE JUST GOING TO GET SWEPT AWAY.

NOT THE BEST OLYMPIAN SWIMMER CAN SWIM AGAINST THESE.

THESE THINGS ARE MOVING FASTER THAN YOU CAN RUN.

IT'S DANGEROUS WATER, VERY TURBULENT, FULL OF DEBRIS.

IT'S -- FLASH FLOODS ARE DANGEROUS.

MAYBE THE TERM FLASH FLOOD MAKES PEOPLE THINK OF THE WEST.

>> MM-HMM.

>> THAT'S KIND OF WHAT I'M SAYING, YEAH.

>> WITH ALL THE IMPERVIOUS SURFACES, WE'RE MAKING -- THE WEST IS NOT VEGETATED.

IT HAS ALL THESE ROCKY SURFACES AND STEEP SLOPES.

THAT'S WHY THEY FLASH FLOOD, BUT WITH OUR STORM SEWERS AND OUR PERVIOUS SURFACES AND OUR CHANNELIZED STREAMS, WE'RE MAKING WESTERN GULCHES OUT OF OUR LOCAL CREEKS THAT OUGHT TO BE FULL OF MEADOWS AND DOCILE, SLOW-FLOWING THINGS.

>> WELL, THE THREE OF US HAVE COME UP WITH A POSSIBLE SOLUTION, CHANGE THAT AROUND HERE.

LET'S NOT CALL THEM FLASH FLOODS, LET'S CALL THEM DEADLY WATER TO DRAW ATTENTION.

>> THEY ARE DEADLY, AND LIKE I SAID, IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, 43 PEOPLE I JUST READ GOT KILLED IN NEW YORK -- THIS IS A HURRICANE REMNANT.

IT'S NOT THE HURRICANE.

IT'S JUST SHARP CONVECTED STORMS.

HURRICANE IKE CAME UP THE MISSISSIPPI VALLEY, JUST LIKE STANDING ON A BOWLING BALL FOR ST. LOUIS, BUT THEN IT HIT A COLD FRONT AND THAT REMNANT DUMPED A BUNCH OF RAIN ON US.

AND THE REAL DANGER IS A COUPLE INCHES OF RAIN IN AN HOUR.

THAT'S WHAT REALLY MAKES SMALL CREEKS SO CRAZY.

AND A TENSE RAIN FOR A SHORT TIME -- BIG RIVERS DON'T CARE.

EVEN THE MERAMEC RIVER WOULDN'T GIVE AN HOOT, BUT IT RESPONDS TO LIKE THREE DAYS OF RAIN OR SOMETHING.

HEAVIER RAIN WILL MAKE IT FLOOD.

>> PROFESSOR, WHEN WE THINK OF LIKE THE MISSISSIPPI OR THE MISSOURI, YOU THINK THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS IS WHO YOU DEAL WITH.

WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT RIVER DES PERES OR COLDWATER CREEK, ARE YOU DEALING WITH LOCAL GOVERNMENTS OR -- LIKE WHO WOULD YOU GO TO TALK TO ABOUT FIX IS RIVER DES PERES?

>> WELL, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ALLEGEDLY FIXING IT ARE NSB AND THE ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS AND THEY MOSTLY HAVE THEIR OWN IDEA.

THEY DON'T HAVE NATURAL SCIENTISTS ON THEIR STAFF.

THEY THINK THEY KNOW BETTER.

OUR STREAMS HAVE BEEN CHANNELIZED, OUR RESPONSE IS NOT CORRECT.

THE PROBLEM WITH A LOT OF THESE THINGS IS THEY'VE BEEN OVER-ENGINEERED AND MORE ENGINEERING IS NOT GOING TO HELP THEM.

MORE LEVEES IS NOT GOING TO PROTECT US FROM FLOODS ALONG THE BIG RIVERS.

IT'S THE WRONG APPROACH.

THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM.

>> SO WE -- >> NARROWING STREAMS, STRAIGHTEN STRAIGHTENING THEM OUT.

>> SO WITH RIVER DES PERES, WHAT COULD YOU DO TO CHANGE IT RIGHT NOW?

I MEAN -- AND I KNOW THIS IS GOING TO SOUND LIKE CRAZY, BUT IF YOU LINED THE BOTTOM OF IT WITH, YOU KNOW, LIKE BIG ROCKS AND, YOU KNOW, MAYBE GROWTH OF VEGETATION IN IT, WOULD THAT HELP OR -- I MEAN, BECAUSE I'M -- I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW.

I'VE ALWAYS JUST THOUGHT YOU DRIVE OVER RIVER DES PERES AND SAY, OH MY GOSH, RIVER DES PERES, IT LOOKS LIKE LOS ANGELES WHERE THEY HAVE CAR CHASES IN THEIR EQUIVALENT TO RIVER DES PERES.

WHAT CAN BE DONE?

>> IT'S REALLY HARD TO, AGAIN, SPIN THE CLOCK BACKWARDS.

RIVER DES PERES ALONG WILSON AVENUE USED TO BE TWO OR THREE TIMES LONGER THAN IT IS NOW.

THINK OF THE STORAGE IN THE CHANNEL, JUS THE CHANNEL THAT YOU'VE LOST.

USED TO BE VEGETATED, WOODS.

THESE KIND OF AREAS ARE GREAT FOR FARMING, THEY'RE GREAT FOR PARKS.

THEY'RE STUPID PLACES TO BUILD STUFF.

USED CORRECTLY, I MEAN, THE RIVERS ARE OUR FRIEND, STREAMS ARE OUR FRIENDS.

PUTTING STUFF WHERE IT DOESN'T BELONG, IT'S JUST POOR LAND USE.

GOLLY, OUR FLOODPLAINS IN ST. LOUIS, THOSE ARE SOME OF THE MOST FERTILE GROUNDS, AGRICULTURAL GROUNDS IN THE WORLD.

AND BESIDES HAVING THE FERTILE GROUND, YOU GOT VALUABLE GROUNDWATER SUPPLIES BENEATH THOSE PLACES.

>> IS ANY PLACE -- >> WHY DO YOU BUILD A TARGET OR BIG BOX STORE OR SHOPPING CENTER THERE, WHAT A WASTE?

>> IS THERE AN EXAMPLE OUT THERE, ANY CITY METROPOLITAN AREA THAT'S DOING IT RIGHT, THAT YOU COULD NAME?

>> I CAN'T THINK OF ANYBODY THAT'S DOING IT RIGHT.

SOME PLACES ARE NOT DEVELOPING THE WAY WE ARE IN THESE LOW-LYING AREAS.

WE JUST SEEM TO HAVE A GIANT APPETITE IN THE ST. LOUIS AREA FOR BUILDING ALONG OUR FLOODPLAINS AND WE OUGHT TO START CURTAILING THAT.

I MEAN, EVEN THE LAST YEAR OR TWO, THE SIZE OF SOME OF THE DEVELOPMENTS I TALKED ABOUT, THERE'S A BIG BUNCH OF STUFF GOING, YOU KNOW, WHERE 270 GOES ACROSS THE MISSISSIPPI RIVER, THERE'S BIG DEVELOPMENTS RIGHT THERE ON THE MISSOURI SIDE.

WHY THE HECK ARE THEY BUILDING THERE?

>> ALL RIGHT.

WELL, PROFESSOR, WE'RE IN OUR LAST MINUTE, SO ALL RIGHT NOW, THERE IS YOUR LAST -- YOU GET THE LAST WORD.

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO TELL?

JUST STOP BUILDING STUFF OR BUILD IT MORE RESPONSIBLY OR, YOU KNOW, IN 30 SECONDS.

>> 30 SECONDS, GEE, WE OUGHT TO BE MORE THOUGHTFUL ABOUT LAND USE.

THE WORLD IS A WONDERFUL PLACE.

RIVERS ARE GREAT.

CREEKS ARE GREAT.

WE OUGHT TO HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT AND, YOU KNOW, OLD-TIMERS, A FEW HUNDRED YEARS AGO, BUILT MORE SENSIBLY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> SO YOU DON'T FIND SOME OF THESE OLD FARMHOUSES AND STUFF RIGHT BY RIVERS.

>> ALL RIGHT.

WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH, PROFESSOR.

AND WE LEARN A LOT ABOUT WATER AND WHERE IT FLOWS AND THANK YOU FOR HANGING OUT WITH US.

BILL McCLELLAN AND MYSELF, WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK ON DONNYBROOK AND NEXT UP.

PROFESSOR, I WILL NEVER LOOK AT MY CREEK THE SAME WAY AGAIN.

YOU ALL HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.