>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," COMING TO YOU FROM THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY, FORMER GOVERNOR MICHAEL DUKAKIS JOINS ME ON THE TROUBLED STATE OF DEMOCRACY AND THE TROUBLED STATE OF THE T. EVEN WITH THE RESTOREICIAN OF THE OR LANG ORANGE LINE.

PLUS, MY CONVERSATION WITH FILMMAKER MICHAEL KIRK ON HIS LATEST FRONTLINE FILM.

A DEEP DIVE INTO WHAT LED TO THE JANUARY 6 INSURRECTION, AND THE POLITICAL REACTION AFTER.

IT'S APTLY NAMED "LIES, POLITICS AND DEMOCRACY."

BUT IT'S NOT SIMPLY A BIOGRAPHY OF DONALD TRUMP.

>> Braude: THE ORANGE LINE IS BACK.

SERVICE ON THE GREEN LINE EXTENSION FROM UNION SQUARE TO GOVERNMENT CENTER HAS RETURNED, TOO.

AND WHILE IT WAS A PLEASANT SURPRISE TO MANY, INCLUDING ME, THAT THE PLANNED 30 DAY SHUTDOWN ACTUALLY WAS OVER AFTER 30 DAYS.

THIS IS FAR FROM THE END OF TROUBLE AT THE T: THE D LINE WILL SHUT FOR NINE-DAYS, THREE TIMES, BETWEEN NOW AND THE END OF NEXT MONTH, WHICH MAY JUST INCONVENIENCE THE GREEN LINE'S MOST FAMOUS RIDER, FORMER MASS GOVERNOR AND THE 1988 DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE FOR PRESIDENT, MICHAEL DUKAKIS.

HE'S NOW A PROFESSOR EMERITUS OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY, AND LIFE-LONG PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION ADVOCATE.

GOVERNOR T IS GREAT TO SIGH, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE SOUND FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN IN MY HOMETOWN OF PHILADELPHIA ON SEPTEMBERS 1S.

HERE IT IS.

>> THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY TODAY IS DOMINATED, DRIVEN, AND INTIMIDATED BY DONALD TRUMP AND THE MAGA REPUBLICANS, AND THAT IS A THREAT TO THIS COUNTRY.

MAGA REPUBLICANS DO NOT RESPECT THE CONSTITUTION.

THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE RULE OF LAW.

THEY DO NOT RECOGNIZE THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

THEY REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE RESULTS OF A FREE ELECTION.

>> Braude: ON THAT LAST NOTES GOVERNOR DUKAKIS YOU PROBABLY SAW THE THING IN THE NEW YORK TIMES WHERE THEY REACHED OUT TO A DOZEN AND A HALF REPUBLICAN NOMINEES FOR UMPLETS.

IS SENATE AND GOVER,ER IN, TWO THIRDS OF THEM REFUSED TO COMMIT TO ACCEPTING THE RESULTS OF THEIR ELECTION.

BY THE WAY, GEOFF DIEHL HERE HAD A NO COMMENTS, THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE, UNTIL THE NEXT DAY WHEN HE STEPPED THAT BACK.

HOW WITHOUT WORRIED ARE YOU ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE DEMOCRACY.

>> WORRIED, WORRIED A LOT.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE GIVEN MY LIFE WILLINGLY AND ENTHUSIASTICICALLY TO THIS POLITICAL SYSTEM AND TO THIS COUNTRY AND THIS STATE.

AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND THESE FOLKS.

WHAT ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT?

THEY WON'T ACCEPT THE RESULTS.

THE MOST RECENT NATIONAL ELECTION WAS PROBABLY THE BEST ONE, THE FAIREST, WHAT CAN I TELL YOU.

IT WAS A TRIBUTE TO THE FOLKS AT THE LOCAL AND THE STATE LEVEL THAT RUN THOSE ELECTIONS AND THEY DID A FABULOUS JOB.

AND YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CONCERNED TO SEE THIS KIND OF REACTION.

NOW REPEATED AGAIN, AT LEAST INITIALLY BY DIEHL AND OTHERS, SUGGESTING THAT THEY'RE NOT COMMITTED TO THIS.

AND IT'S VERY TROUBLING.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW DEMOCRACY SURVIVES WHEN THE ENTRY REQUIREMENT FOR ONE PARTY IS TO EMBRACE A BIG LIE ABOUT A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

DO YOU SEE A PATH OUT OF THIS?

OR ARE YOU AS DESPONDENT AS I AM MOST DAYS.

>> NOT DESPONDENT BUT I'M VERY CONCERNED.

YOU KNOW, IN ANOTHER YEAR I'M GOING TO BE 90.

SO FAR, I'M IN GOOD SHAPE BUT I WANT TO LEAVE THIS COUNTRY, AND THIS POLITICAL SYSTEM IN THE BEST SHAPE I AND OTHERS CAN LEAVE IT.

AND WATCHING THIS HAPPEN IS JUST VERY, VERY TROUBLING.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, SPEAKING OF YOU APPROACHING 90, IF PRESIDENT BIED EPP ON "60 MINUTES" THE OTHER NIGHT SAID HE ASSUMED HE WOULD RUN FOR RE-ELECTION BUT HADN'T MADE A DECISION SOON, SHOULD HE RUN FOR A SECOND TERM, HE WOULD BE 82 ON HIS SECOND INAUGURATION.

IS THAT TOO HOLD TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S TOO HOLD BUT IT-- OLD, BUT AT THE T DEPENDS ON HIM AND HOW HE FEELS AND WHETHER OR NOT HE THINKS HE IS UP TO THE TASK.

THERE ARE FOLKS IN THEIR 80S.

YOU KNOW, I WILL 90 NEXT YEAR.

AND SO FAR I SEEM TO BE DOING OKAY.

BUT YOU CAN ONLY, ONLY THE INDIVIDUAL THEMSELVE CAN MAKE THAT DECISION.

IF HE FEELS GOOD IN SO FAR AS HE IS DOING WELL, FINE.

IF NOT, THEN WE'LL HAVE A CONTEST.

>> Braude: WELL, ONE THING HE IS NOT TOO OLD TO DO IS DESIGN A $1 BILLION INFRASTRUCTURE BILL IN NOVEMBER OF LAST YEAR, AS SOMEONE WHO AS I SAID WAS ON THE BOARD MUCH AMTRAK, A BIG PUBLIC TRANSIT ADVOCATE, HIGH SPEED RAIL ADVOCATE, ARE YOU VINCEED THAT BILLION DOLLARS WILL MAKE THE UNITED STATES COMPETITIVE OR IS IT JUST A CATCHUP KIND OF THING.

>> I DON'T THINK IT IS A CATCH-UP KIND OF THING.

IT IS CERTAINLY NECESSARY, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

NOT JUST IN MASSACHUSETTS BUT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

WE HAVE WORK TO DO TO BUILD A FIRST CLASS NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM, RAIL IN PARTICULAR, AS YOU KNOW, WHICH I FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT.

ST AN EMBARRASSMENT TO LOOK AT THE WAY WE'RE STRUGGLING BOTH HERE AND ELSEWHERE TO RUN A DECENT PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM.

I WOULD LIKE TO THINK WHEN I WAS GOVERNOR THAT WE PRODUCED A GOOD ONE AND DID GOOD WORK ABOVE IT.

BUT YOU KNOW, YOU GO TO EUROPE, YOU GO TO THE FAR EAST, AND ST EMBARRASSING TO COME BACK TO THE UNITED STATES AND SEE WHAT WE HAVE DONE HERE.

>> Braude: WELL, LET ME, FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T FOLLOW AS CLOSELY AS YOU DO.

CHINA AT THE END OF LAST YEAR HAD 25,000 MILES OF HIGH SPEED RAIL, THE FASTEST, THE ACCELA GOES FOR I THINK 49.9 MILES, IS 150 MILES AN HOUR.

NINE YEARS AGO I WROTE A PIECE ABOUT HIGH SPEED RAIL IN THE "BOSTON GLOBE" MAGAZINE AND I TALKED TO A GUY NAMED MICHAEL DUKAKIS, HERE IS PART OF WHAT HE SAID TO ME.

HIGH SPEED WILL ADDRESS INCREASINGLY CLOGGED ROADS AND AIRPORT, SAFE ENERGY, MAKE TRAVEL VIRTUALLY WEATHERPROOF.

DUKAKIS SAYS AMTRAK TRAINS WILL HIT 220 MILES PER HOUR BY 2040.

DUKAKIS SAYS PUBLICLY FUND THE TRAIN WOULD GET TO YOU NEW YORK IN 90 MINUTES.

I KNOW YOU ARE NOT NOSTRADAMUS, ANY CHANCE WE HIT 220 BY 2040 ON THE TRACK WE'RE CURRENTLY ON, EXCUSE THAT, GOVERNOR.

>> NOT ON THE TRACK WE ARE CURRENTLY ON.

IS IT POSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE THOSE GOALS, YEAH, SURE IS, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, BUT WE HAVE TO GET SERIOUS ABOUT IT, WE HAVE TO GET GOING ON IT, MY HOPE IS THAT WE, THE NEXT GOVERNOR IS GOING TO TAKE THIS RESPONSIBILITY VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY AND GO AT IT.

>> Braude: WELL, YOU KNOW, SPEAKING OF THE NEXT GOVERNOR, AS YOU KNOW AS WELL AS I, ONE OF THE GREEN LINE HAS BEEN SHUT FOR A MONTH.

THE ORANGE LINE TOTALLY.

ANOTHER GREEN LINE IS ABOUT TO SHUT DOWN, AS I SAID, FOR MOST OF THE END OF SEPTEMBER THROUGH THE END OF OCTOBER.

HOW DO WE GET IN TO THIS MESS?

HOW DID WE GET TO THIS KIND OF PLACE IN THATEENS OF AMERICA, GOVERNOR?

>> THANKS FOR THE REFERENCE.

>> Braude: I I DID IT FOR YOU, I'M GLAD YOU GOT IT.

>> THEY HAVE A FAR BETTER TRANSIT SYSTEM THESE DAYS THAN WE DO.

WELL, I DON'T WANT TO ASSIGN BLAME.

I THINK WHEN I LEFT OFFICE WE HAD A-- SYSTEM AND YOU KNOW, SO MUCH OF THIS HAS TO DO WITH THE QUALITY AND CALIBER OF LEADERSHIP.

I DON'T KNOW THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CURRENTLY RUNNING THE T. AND I THINK THEY ARE DECENT PEOPLE BUT YOU CAN'T TAKE A LOOK AT THE SITUATION AND NOT BE VERY UPSET ABOUT-- I HOPE-- TO BE ABLE TO DO DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN'T DO IT BUT IT BETTER GET STARTED.

THE NEW GOVERNOR IS GOING TO PUT THIS AT THE TOP OF HER AGENDA.

AND GO OUT THERE AND MOBILIZE RESOURCES WE HAVE AND GET IT DONE.

AND IT'S DOABLE.

THIS IS NOTHING, YOU KNOW, DIFFICULT.

>> Braude: GOVERNOR, I KNOW YOU DON'T PLACE BLAME AND I THINK IT IS CONVENIENT FOR PEOPLE TO ALWAYS BLAME IN THE CASE OF MASSACHUSETTS, THE MAN AT THE TOP BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T HAD A WOMAN YET EXCEPT INTERIM GOVERNOR SWIFT.

BUT THERE ARE ENOUGH DEMOCRATS IN THE LEGISLATURE, YOU KNOW THIS BETTER THAN I, YOU HAVE SERVED IN THE LEGISLATURE TO OVERRIDE ANYTHING THAT GOVERNOR BAKER DOESN'T LIKE.

WHY HAVEN'T THE DEMOCRATS TAKING THE LEAD IN THE LEGISLATURE AND APPROPRIATED ENOUGH MONEY TO PROVIDE A T THAT LURES BUSINESSES, THAT IS RELIABLE AND SAFE FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE COMMONWEALTH?

IS.

>> THIS IS A QUESTION OF-- IT IS A QUESTION OF LEADERSHIP, MANAGEMENT, SKILL, MOBILIZING FOLKS, THAT MOBILIZE THESE KINDS OF THINGS.

I HAD A TERRIFIC TEAM.

IT WITH A WONDERFUL GUY WHO IS A CAREER PERSON AT THE T, COOPT STUDENT, WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF CAPITAL CONSTRUCTION PLANNING AND A WHOLE GROUP OF THESE FOLKS WHO JUST WERE TERRIFIC.

I WAS BLESSED TO BE IN A POSITION WHERE I COULD BE HOPEFUL IN MOBILIZING THEM AND GETTING GOING AND WE HAD TERRIFIC-- I WAS THERE FOR 12 YEARS.

SO WE HAD THE TIME TO DO IT.

BUT WHEN I LEFT OFFICE, THE TEAM WAS IN DARN GOOD SHAPE.

I DON'T KNOW THE FOLKS THAT ARE THERE THESE DAYS PERSONALLY.

ALL I CAN TELL SU THAT WE'VE GOT TO DO A HELL OF A LOT BETTER.

>> YOU KNOW GOVERNOR, I KNOW WHEN SOUTH STATION WAS NAMED AFTER YOU, BY GOVERNOR PATRICK, YOU SAID YOU'RE NOT INTO THIS NAMING KIND OF THING.

BUT I BET IF YOU IT WAS A NORTH SOUTH RAIL YOU WOULDN'T MIND THAT BEING NAMED AFTER YOU AS YOU HAD BEEN THE CHIEF ADVOCATE.

DO YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC COMMITMENT, HAVE YOU HEARD ONE FROM MAURA HALEY.

SHOULD SHE BE THE NEXT GOVERNOR THAT A CONNECTION OF NORTH AND SOUTH STATION IS IN THE OFFING.

>> I THINK WE'LL HAVE-- JRS EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHY THAT MATTERS SO MUCH.

THAT HAS BEEN A CORE CAUSE OF YOURS FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND A BIPARTISAN CAUSE, GOVERNOR WELD HAS JOINED YOU IN THAT AS WELL.

WHY IS THAT SO IMPORTANT, GOVERNOR DUKAKIS.

>> IT WILL TAKE 60,000 CARS OFF THE ROAD EVERY DAY.

AND IT WILL FINALLY COMPLETE THE NORTH SOUTH CORRIDOR FROM MAINE TO WASHINGTON D.C.

WHICH IS INCOMPLETE BECAUSE OF A ONE MILE HOLE IN DOWNTOWN BOSTON WHICH IS LUDICRIS.

AND IT WOULD DO ENORMOUS THINGS FOR THE SYSTEM OR FOR OUR METROPOLITAN AREA, FOR NEW ENGLAND.

THERE ARE SOME OTHER PROJECTS AS WELL THAT WE SHOULD BE PURSUING.

BUT THIS IS JUST LAUGHABLE, TO TOLERATE THIS SITUATION ON THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF THE WHOLE AMTRAK SYSTEM.

SO MY HOPE IS THAT A NEW GOVERNOR AND LOTS OF PUBLIC SUPPORT, CERTAINLY PUBLIC SUPPORT.

THE LAST POLL I SAW, LIKE 82, 84, 86 PERCENT APPROVAL.

SO IT IS NOT AS IF PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS.

-- .

>> Braude: GOVERNOR DUKAKIS, YOU ONCE TOLD ME THAT YOUR MOTHER LIVED TO BE A HUNDRED SO YOU ARE RIGHT AND MAURA HALEY BECOMES THE GOVERNOR, I'M ASSUMING YOU WILL BE THERE TO CUT THE RIBBON AND I HOPE YOU ARE.

GOVERNOR, AS ALWAYS, IT'S A PLEASURE TO TALK TO YOU, BE WELL, SEND MY REGARDS.

>> APPRECIATE T. FEW THINGS ARE MORE EMBLEMATIC OF AILING AMERICAN DEMOCRACY THAN THE ELECTION LIES THAT SURROUNDED THE 2020 ELECTION AND THE INSURRECTION THAT FOLLOWED.

"FRONTLINE" RECENTLY LOOKED BACK AT BOTH THE PATH THE LED TO THE CAPITOL RIOT, AND THE RESPONSE AFTER, WITH KEY REPUBLICANS OCCASIONALLY CHALLENGING DONALD TRUMP ALONG THE WAY, BUT ULTIMATELY DETERMINING THAT THEY JUST CAN'T QUIT HIM.

>> KEVIN McCARTHY MAKES A POLITICAL DECISION, WHICH IS BETTING ON THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE A HOLD OVER THE BASE AND THE PARTY.

>> WE SEE LINDSEY GRAHAM TRYING TO GET BACK IN TRUMP'S GOOD GRACES AND I THINK THAT THAT'S SYMBOLIC OF WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

>> THE THING THAT DRIVES 99% OF THE FOLKS IN POLITICS IS SELF- PRESERVATION TO MAKE NOISE.

IT MIGHT NOT BE GOOD IN TERMS OF MY OWN POLITICAL INTEREST THEREFORE ILL STAY QUIET.

>> I HEARD FROM A SPECIFIC SENATOR WHO SAID MITCH HAS TOLD US TO STAY QUIET AGAINST THE PRESIDENT IN THIS PERIOD, AND I THINK THAT LED TO A LOT OF WHAT OTHERWISE WOULD BE A LOT OF INFLUENTIAL SENATORS AT LEAST COUNTERING THE VOICE OF DONALD TRUMP BEING SILENT.

AND SILENCE IS COMPLICITY.

>> Braude: THE FILM IS "LIES, POLITICS AND DEMOCRACY," AND DIRECTOR MICHAEL KIRK JOINED ME ON THE NIGHT IT PREMIERED.

MICHAEL, CONGRATULATIONS YET AGAIN, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS, JIM, GOOD TO HE SEE YOU TOO.

>> Braude: PEOPLE MAY THINK ON THE SURFACE ST A STORY ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND HIS SERIAL LYING BUT WHAT I SAID THERE IS TRUE.

IT REALLY IS A STORY ABOUT THE COMPLICIT AND COWARDICE AMONG HIS FELLOW HELP CANS, PARTICULARLY LEADERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS IT NOT.

>> YES, I THINK IT IS A FILM IN MANY WAYS MORE ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND IT'S LEADERS THAN DONALD TRUMP.

IT IS-- WE HAVE BEEN GATHERING ON IN FOR SIX YEARS WATCHING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

WITH MAY, AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW KNOW BECAUSE WE TALKED ABOUT HIM, WE MADE 15 FILMS ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

AND ALL ALONG WE KEPT WATCHING THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP JOCKEY FOR WHAT TO DO, TO DO WE MANIPULATE HIM, CAN HE MANIPULATE US, ALL THE THINGS WE HAVE SEEN, EMPOWERING, ENABLING, ALL THAT HAS BEEN MADE THERE, THE DEAL WITH THE DEVIL IF YOU WILL EXCUSE THE EXPRESSION.

AND THIS, AND NOW, RIGHT BEFORE THE MID TERMS, RIGHT BEFORE REALLY TRUMP ANNOUNCES WHAT TO DO IN 2024, WE FELT WE BETTER LAY OUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE LEADERSHIP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

AND WHERE THE PARTY STANDS AT THIS MOMENT.

IN RELATION TO THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

>> THERE ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES T IS NOT JUST THE McCONNELLS OF THE WORLD, THE McCARTHY, TED CRUZ, I'M SURE PEOPLE REMEMBER, AND YOU RECOUNT THIS IN YOUR FILM, CANDIDATE TRUMP ESSENTIALLY SUGGESTED THAT HIS WIFE WAS UGLY AND CRUZ'S FATHER WAS INVOLVED INVOLVED IN ASSASSINATION OF J.F.K.

SO CRUZ IN A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME IN A TOUGH SETTING AT THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATING SESSION NOMINATING CONVENTION DID STAND TALL, HERE SAY LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT >> IT TOOK DAYS FOR CRUZ TO DECIDE.

>> HE TELLS IN HIS DECISION THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO ENDORSE DONALD TRUMP IN HIS SPEECH.

AND THEY ASK HIM WHY.

AND CRUZ LOOKS AT THEM AND HE SAYS, HISTORY ISN'T KIND TO THE MAN WHO HOLDS MUSSOLINI'S JACKET HE WAS RECEIVING LOTS OF ADVICE IMPLORING ADVICE SAYING TO HIM IN EFFECT, TED, THIS IS BAD FOR THE PARTY.

IT'S BAD FOR TRUMP, IT'S ALSO REALLY BAD FOR YOU AND FOR YOUR FUTURE IF YOU DON'T GET ON BOARD THE TRUMP TRAIN.

>> Braude: EVENTUALLY HE AND VIRTUALLY EVERYBODY ELSE EXCEPT MAYBE KINZINGER AND CHENEY DID GET ON THE TRUMP TRAIN, WHY, WHY DOES EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM DECIDE AFTER A MOMENT OF COURAGE THAT TRUMP IS THE TICKET FOR THEM?

>> SOMEBODY TOLD ME THE DEFINITION OF A POLITICIAN IS SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO BE RE-ELECTED.

THAT IS IF YOU ARE A POLITICIAN, YOU WILL DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO GET RE-ELECTED.

IN ALMOST EVERY CASE, AND ESPECIALLY IN THE CASES OF THE LEADERSHIP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OVER THESE LAST FEW YEARS.

TRYING TO RIDE HERD ON TRUMP AND FINALLY REALIZING IF THEY WANT TO GET THINGS THEY'RE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO GO ALONG WITH HIM AND THEN IT GET TOO LATE AFTER JANUARY 6th FOR THEM TO WALK AWAY.

THEY REALIZE THAT HE'S GOT THEM.

HE OWNS THE MAGAZINEA BASE THAT PEOPLE, PRESIDENT BIDEN LAST WEEK CALLED THE EXTREMIST MAGA BASE.

BUT I THINK IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF THAT, JIM.

I THINK ALSO PEOPLE LIKE McCONNELL MADE DEALS AND THEY THOUGHT WELL, ALL I'VE GOT TO DO IS PRETEND TO BE LOYAL.

BUT HERE THEY ARE NOW, THEY ARE LEGACY TARRED WITH WHAT THEY LET HAPPEN ESPECIALLY AS MORE AND MORE OF US DISCOVER WHAT WENT ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS BETWEEN THEM AND TRUMP.

>> Braude: BUT McCONNELL IS ARGUABLY ONE OF THE MOST STRATEGIC MEN ON THE PLANET.

I WATCHED MONA, IN YOUR FILM, A CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR, WORKED FOR RONALD REAGAN SAYING ALL THEY HAD TO DO AFTER THEIR FINE PEOPLE OP BOTH SIDES AFTER CHARLOTTESVILLE, THAT WAS THE MOMENT, BAND TOGETHER.

DON'T STAND UP ONE BY ONE BY ONE.

SHE DIDN'T MENTION MITCH McCONNELL.

MITCH McCONNELL CALLS IN 40 SENATORS, 50 SENATORS, WHATEVER IS AND SAYS GENTLEMEN AND LADIES, WE'RE GOING TO DO THIS AS ONE.

WHY DID THAT NEVER SURFACE AS A POSSIBILITY FOR ANY OF THESE GUYS IN WINNING.

>> YOU MEAN WHY DIDN'T THEY DO THINGS-- .

>> Braude: WHY DIDN'T THEY UNIONIZE AND ESSENTIALLY DO IT AS A GROUP RATHER THAN INDIVIDUALS WHICH THEY COULDN'T-- WEREN'T STRONG ENOUGH TO DO?

>> RIGHT, THAT IS THE 64,000 DOLLAR QUESTION.

THAT I KEPT ASKING, WHY, WHY NOT JUST STEP UP.

IN NOT JUST DO IT WELL, SOME OF IT IS THE HUBRIS.

MITCH McCONNELL WANTED A IS CONSERVATIVE SUPREME COURTS FOR THE NEXT GENERATION.

AND HE THOUGHT, I THINK HE THOUGHT HE COULD MANAGE HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH TRUMP BECAUSE HE'S BEEN SO SUCCESSFUL ALL THE WAY THROUGH HIS CAREER AT DOING EXACTLY THAT.

BUT NOBODY IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT I CAN FIND HAS EVER BEEN ABLE, WAS EVER ABLE TO MANAGE HIM, TO UNDERSTAND HIM, TO KNOW THAT THIS GUY INNOVATED THEIR PARTY, WASN'T EVEN A REPUBLICAN, HE INVADED THEIR PARTY AND THEY COULDN'T STOP HIM.

AND THEY REALLY THOUGHT THEY COULD BECAUSE THEY ARE KIND OF POLITICIANS AND THEY THOUGHT THEY COULD DO DEALS, WELL, HE WASN'T ABOUT TO DEAL WITH ANY OF THEM, THAT'S FOR SURE, EXCEPT THE TAKING OVER AND MOVING IN THE DIRECTION HE HAS MOVED IT IN.

WHICH IS NOW THEY'RE STUCK, I CAN'T SEE ANY OF THEM WALKING AWAY FROM IT.

AND THAT IS PART OF THE PROBLEM WHEN YOU THINK WELL, WHAT'S THE NATURE OF THE IMPACT OF ALL OF THIS ON THE DEMOCRACY, WELL, THAT'S THE IMPACT.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT TRUMP HIMSELF FOR A MINUTE.

I WOULD NEVER HAVE THOUGHT THAT I WOULD PRAISE A FILL -- FILMMAKER FOR A TWO MINUTE OPENING THAT INCLUDED WENDELL WILKIE, THE LOSING CANDIDATE IN 1944, I THINK.

CAN YOU JUST DESCRIBE THE FIRST TWO MINUTES OF THIS FILM WHICH ARE REALLY ELECTRIC.

>> WE WERE SITTING AROUND TRYING TO FINISH THE FILM, TRYING TO THINK OF A WAY TO FINISH THE FILM AND I GOT THIS BRIGHT IDEA THAT WHY DON'T WE GET EVERYBODY WHO HAS EVER DONE THE CONCESSION SPEECH, EVEN FROM THE DAYS WHEN IT WAS A TELEGRAM AND THEY BASICALLY READ THE TEL GRAM, LET'S GET THEM ALL, EVERYBODY THAT WE CAN FIND AND WE DUG OUT ALL THE STOCK FOOTAGE AS FAR BACK AS WE COULD GO, AS FAR BACK AS TELEVISION GOES, I THINK, AND LAID THEM ALL OUT.

AND THERE THEY WERE, AND IT WAS JUST FABULOUS.

AND FIRST THE ARGUMENT IS WE SHOULD START WITH TRUMP.

NO, NO, NO.

WE'LL FINISH WITH TRUMP BECAUSE AFTER YOU SEE HISTORY LAID OUT THAT WAY, AND THAT NOBODY HAS EVER DONE WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID AT 2:30 IN THE MORNING ON THE NIGHT AFTER THE ELECTION, HE REALLY MAKES IN A WAY THE POINT ABOUT THE ENTIRE FILM, >> Braude: YOU KNOW, ALSO AS A STUDENT OF YOUR FILMS, MICHAEL KIRK, WHEN I'M WATCHING THAT LITTLE TRUMP BITE SAYING I WON, ACTUALLY, I HARKEN BACK TO ONE OF YOUR GREAT QUADRENNIAL FEATURES, "THE CHOICE," WHERE YOU SPEND TWO HOURS ON EACH CANDIDATE AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE INFLUENCE OF ROY COHEN, PEOPLE KNOW FROM THE McCARTHY HEARING AS LAWYER FOR THE TRUMP FAMILY, WHEN THEY COME OUT IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY FROM THE HOUSING DISCRIMINATION CASE THAT THEY WERE BRUTALIZED AND LOST IN TO BASICALLY TELL TRUMP SAY WE WON, SAY WE WON RELENTLESSLY AND NEVER STOP AND PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE US.

AND DECADES LATER, IT'S THE LESSONS OF ROY COHEN THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS INTERNALIZED, ON ELECTION NIGHT, THE NIGHT HE LOST AS YOU SHOW IN IOWA TO TED CRUZ, ALL THAT STUFF TRACES BACK TO COHEN, NO.

>> THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT-- TO COHEN, YOU AND I MAY BE THE ONLY PEOPLE, AND OUR EDITOR AND THE OTHER PEOPLE ON MY TEAM WHO REMEMBER ALL THOSE STRANDS AND TENTACLES OF THINGS THAT TRUMP DOES BUT THEY ARE ALL THERE.

THEY WERE ALL THERE.

THEY WERE IN PLAIN SIGHT, JIM, SINCE 2014, 2015, AS HE STARTED TO MAKE THE RUN.

BUT WE JUST NEVER, WE ALL BELIEVED, I THINK, THAT THE PIVOT WOULD HAPPEN.

AND SUDDENLY THE POWER AND THE MAJESTY GIVE WAY TO THE RESPONSIBILITY, WHEN ARE YOU DONALD TRUMP SITTING IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

BUT OF COURSE THAT WAS NOT TO BE.

>> Braude: YOU EVEN GO BACK AS FAR AS TO SAY HE THOUGHT THE EMMYS WERE RIGGED WHEN THE APPRENTICE LOST ON BEST WHATEVER, REALITY SHOW.

YOU KNOW, I WANT TO CHANGE GEARS, YOU HAVE JONATHAN CARL FROM ABC IN YOUR FILM.

I WANT TO READ A QUOTE TO YOU IN MARGARET SULLIVAN, THE MEDIA CRITIC FROM "THE WASHINGTON POST'S" FINAL COLUMN THE OTHER DAY, HERE IS WHAT CARL IS QUOTED AS SAYING, HOW DO YOU COVER A CANDIDATE WHO IS EFFECTIVELY ANTI-DEMOCRATIC.

HOW DO YOU COVER A CANDIDATE RUNNING BOTH AGAINST WHOEVER THE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE S BUT ALSO RUNNING AGAINST THE VERY DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM THAT MAKES ALL THIS POSSIBLE?

WHAT WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT WHEN MAKING THIS FILM?

AND I'M GHESSING YOU ARE ALREADY THINKING ABOUT HOW DO I PORTRAY A DONALD TRUMP, IF HE RUNS FOR REELECTION IN 2024, IN THE CHOICE.

HOW DO YOU COVER A MAN WHO IS ATTEMPTING TO DESTROY THE SYSTEM THAT HE IS ATTEMPTING TO HEAD.

>> THIS WAY, THE WAY WE DO IN THIS FILM.

WE TRY TO TELL THE TRUTH.

WE TRY TO YOU TRY TO BE FAIR TO THE INNOCENT AND POINT THE FINGER AT THE PEOPLE WHO ENABLED AND HELPED HIM.

AND LEARN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING THAT THIS, THAT THIS MAN, I THINK THE FIRST WORDS IN THE FILM ARE, ARE ABOUT THE LIE THAT HE TOLD THAT NIGHT.

I MEAN THIS IS, THERE ARE SOME PARTS OF SOME STORIES THAT THERE IS JUST NOT ANOTHER SIDE ON.

AND I THINK THE RELATIONSHIP WITH DONALD TRUMP AND THE TRUTH AND TO DEMOCRACY AND TO THE CONSTITUTION AND TO THE GUARD RAILS AND NORMS THAT WE THOUGHT WE HAD, THAT STORY NEEDED TO BE TOLD.

WE'VE TOLD AS MUCH OF IT AS WE CAN FROM 30,000 FEET.

IT IS MY FERVENT HOPE THAT NOT ONLY WILL THIS FILM LAY DOWN AS HISTORY FOR OTHERS BUT IT WILL SPARK OTHERS TO GO FORWARD IN THE SAME WAY AND COVER THE PARTS THAT WE JUST COULDN'T COVER OR-- .

ARE COULDN'T UNCOVER.

IS.

>> Braude: I HOPE IT ST ALL TRUE, WE ONLY HAVE 45 SECONDS LEFT YOU REGULARLY SPEAK TO ZEN BLAT WHO WROTE THAT BOOK HOW DEMOCRACIES DIE, AND THROUGHOUT YOUR FILL TESTIMONY, THEY COME IN TALKING ABOUT HISTORICAL PRECEDENT FOR EXACTLY WHAT STRONG MAN TRUMP IS DOING.

SO THEY SEEM TO BE SAYING, MAYBE NOT AS DEFINITIVELY AS I'M NOW SUGGESTING IT, THAT WE WILL BE ONE OF THOSE DEMOCRACIES THAT THEY ARE WRITING ABOUT, THE EM IF THE EMBRACE OF TRUMP CONTINUES.

>> ALMOST EVERYONE WE TALK TO, WE INTERVIEWED 30 PEOPLE FOR THIS FILM, ALMOST EVERYONE, AND NO DEMOCRATS, AND ALMOST EVERY ONE IN THIS FILM THAT WE TALKED TO IS WORRIED, DESPERATELY WORRIED ABOUT A TRUMP CANDIDACY AND WORRIED ABOUT EVEN THE MID-TERMS.

LET'S SAY THE MID-TERMS ARE REPUBLICAN SWEEP OR AT LEAST AN EFFECTIVE REPUBLICAN TAKEDOWN.

PLENTY TO WORRY ABOUT, JIM, PLENTY TO WORRY ABOUT IN 2024.

>> Braude: WELL, YOU BRILLIANTLY-- WHAT IS THAT.

>> AND THAT IS FROM THE PEOPLE WE TALKED TO.

THAT IS NOT EVEN MY OPINION.

AND I WANT TO PUT MY HEAD UNDER THE PILLOW ALL THE TIME, YOU KNOW.

IT'S A SCARY TIME.

>> Braude: WELL, YOU WATCH THE FILM AND I THINK PEOPLE LEARN IT IS TIME TO GET YOUR HEAD OUT FROM UNDER THE PILLOW AND ANOTHER SPECTACULAR PIECE OF WORK, BY YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES, MICHAEL, THANKS SO MUCH, APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

YOU CAN WATCH FRONTLINE'S LIES, POLITICS AND DEMOCRACY ON THE PBS VIDEO APP, AND ONLINE AT pbs.org/frontline.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW WITH A LOOK AT THE STATE OF THE COVID PANDEMIC, WHICH PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS DECLARED OVER.

BUT IS IT REALLY?

A COUPLE PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS WILL JOIN ME.

PLUS, THE FORMER MAYOR OF SAN JUAN, PUERTO RICO, CARMEN YULIÍN CRUZ JOINS ME ON HOW THE ISLAND IS FARING TWO DAYS AFTER HURRICANE FIONA HIT, AND FIVE YEARS AFTER MARIA.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org >> THE STAR MARKET BEGAN IN WATERTOWN.

THE FIRST ONE OPENED IN 1915.

>> THAT'S CLARA SILVERSTEIN WITH "HISTORIC NEWTON."

>> THE OWNER WAS NAMED SARKIS MUGAR, AND HE WAS FROM ARMENIA.

>> SARKIS HELMED THE WATERTOWN STAR MARKET UNTIL 1922.

WHEN HE DIED FOLLOWING AN AUTOMOBILE ACCIDENT, HIS SON STEVEN TOOK OVER THE STORE, AND IN 1930, OPENED A SECOND STAR MARKET RIGHT HERE IN NEWTONVILLE.

BUT THE BOLDEST LEAP CAME IN 1948, WITH THE STAR MARKET'S FIRST SUPERMARKET.

BUT STAR MARKET WAS IMMEDIATELY ON A COLLISION COURSE WITH THE LATEST THING IN ROADS-- THE MODERN HIGHWAY.

>> MORE AND MORE AND MORE CARS.

>> THE TURNPIKE AUTHORITY WANTED TO GO THROUGH NEWTONVILLE AND TAKE OVER THE STAR MARKET'S PARKING LOT.

>> THE TURNPIKE AUTHORITY GOT ITS ROUTE, AND THE MUGARS WERE GRANTED THE AIR RIGHTS TO BUILD A NEW STORE ON TOP OF THE NEW TURNPIKE.

THE SUCCESS OF THE STAR MARKET PROJECT FUELED THE IMAGINATIONS OF DEVELOPERS AND CITY LEADERS, WHO SAW A FUTURE WITH GLEAMING BUILDINGS OVER THE PIKE.

IN REALITY, NOTHING HAS BEEN BUILT WITH AIR RIGHTS WEST OF THE CITY IN ALMOST 50 YEARS.

AND SO, IT STANDS OVER THE PIKE TODAY, A NOD TO NEWTON'S PAST, AND TO AN IMAGINED FUTURE THAT NEVER CAME TO PASS.

I'M EDGAR B. HERWICK III.

STAY CURIOUS OUT THERE.