>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": FIVE YEARS AFTER HURRICANE MARIA DEVASTATED PUERTO RICO, MUCH OF THE ISLAND IS, AGAIN, WITHOUT POWER AND ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER, LAYING BARE LESSONS CLEARLY NOT LEARNED IN A PLACE WHOSE PEOPLE ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO WHY THE CONTINUED APATHY?

FORMER SAN JUAN MAYOR CARMEN YULIÍN CRUZ, OF TRUMP TWITTER BATTLE FAME, JOINS ME.

THEN, PRESIDENT BIDEN'S DECLARATION THAT COVID IS OVER HAS SPARKED A MAJOR DEBATE IN THE PUBLIC HEALTH COMMUNITY.

TWO LEADING HEALTH EXPERTS JOIN ME ON THAT.

♪♪ >> BRAUDE: FIVE YEARS SINCE HURRICANE MARIA BATTERED PUERTO RICO, KNOCKING OUT POWER TO MANY ON THE ISLANDS FOR MONTHS-- SOME FOR MORE THAN A YEAR-- A FAR SMALLER HURRICANE FIONA MANAGED TO CUT POWER TO MORE THAN A MILLION PEOPLE, AND ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER FOR ALMOST HALF THE POPULATION, BEFORE EVEN MAKING LANDFALL.

IT WAS A REMINDER TO MANY OF THE REALITY PUERTO RICAN RESIDENTS HAVE LONG LIVED WITH-- A FRAGILE INFRASTRUCTURE AND LITTLE HELP FROM THE MAINLAND U.S., A COUNTRY OF WHICH PUERTO RICO IS A PART, A TERRITORY.

IT'S A FACT FAR TOO MANY SEEM TO CONSTANTLY FORGET, EVEN AFTER MARIA, AND A FEDERAL RESPONSE THAT INCLUDED A PAPER-TOWEL-TOSSING PHOTO OP FROM THEN-PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, AND A TWITTER BATTLE WITH THEN-SAN JUAN MAYOR CARMEN YULIÍN CRUZ, A BATTLE SHE DID NOT WAGE QUIETLY.

>> WHILE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE HAD A BIG HEART, TRUMP HAS HAD A BIG MOUTH, AND HE HAS USED IT TO INSULT THE PEOPLE OF PUERTO RICO.

MR. TRUMP, DO YOUR JOB.

LIVES ARE AT STAKE.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT POLITICS.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR EGO.

>> BRAUDE: WHILE TRUMP AND CRUZ ARE BOTH OUT OF OFFICE THIS TIME AROUND, MANY OF THE CORE ISSUES REMAIN.

I'M JOINED BY CARMEN YULIÍN CRUZ, WHO'S NOW A FELLOW AT MOUNT HOLYOKE COLLEGE, FOCUSED ON LEADERSHIP.

>> Braude: MAYOR, IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN IN REGULAR TOUCH WITH LEADERS AND OTHERS IN PUERTO RICO, WHAT ARE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND?

>> AS YOU MENTIONED THIS MORNING, 80% OF THE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE ELECTRICITY.

AND WHAT I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT WE DON'T WANT ELECTRICITY TO TAKE HOT SHOWERS.

THERE ARE PEOPLE ALREADY CLAMMERING BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO TAKE THEIR DIALYSIS OR THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO TAKE THEIR NEB NEBLIZERS OR USE THEIR GENERATORS.

5% OF THE PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE -- 55% OF PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE WATER.

IN MANY PLACES IN PUERTO RICO, WHEN YOU LOSE ELECTRICAL POWER, YOU LOSE THE ABILITY TO GET WATER.

MY PARENTS WHO LIVE IN A TOWN NOT IN SAN JUAN JUST RECEIVED WATER AND ELECTRICITY THIS MORNING.

IN MY APARTMENT, WHICH I STILL HOLD IN PUERTO RICO, WHICH IS IN SAN JUAN, WE HAVE SCARCELY WATER BUT NO ELECTRICITY.

SO THINGS ARE VERY TOUCH AND GO RIGHT NOW.

>> Braude: HOW FAR ALONG IN THE RECOVERY FROM MARIA WERE MOST PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND THE OTHER THINGS THAT WERE SO BADLY DAMAGED?

>> OBVIOUSLY NOT FAR ENOUGH.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT WAS TRUE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP DID A LOT OF THINGS TO CURTAIL THE AID THAT NEEDED TO GET TO PUERTO RICO.

BUT IT IS ALSO TRUE THAT FIVE YEARS HAVE BEEN LOST OF MAKING SURE THAT ESPECIALLY THE MICROGRID IN PUERTO RICO IS ROBUSTLY RECONSTRUCTED AND TRANSFORMATION HAPPENS FROM JUST OIL INTO SOLAR POWER, WHICH IS, OF COURSE, A LOT MORE RESILIENT THAN JUST OIL.

IT IS EVIDENT THAT WE, AS A SOCIETY, DID NOT DO EVERYTHING THAT COULD BE DONE.

AND THIS WAS IN THE HANDS OF THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT OF PUERTO RICO, WHICH IS WHY I'M CALLING THIS ADMINISTRATION TO CHANNEL ALL OF THE AID THAT 7 78 MUNICIPALITIES NEED SO THEY CAN DO THINGS BETTER.

>> Braude: WHEN I READ A COMMENT OF YOURS THE OTHER DAY, I ASSUMED YOU WERE MANIPULATING THE NUMBERS.

I APOLOGIZE.

I HEARD YOU SAY SOMETHING LIKE $9 BILLION WAS ALLOTTED TO DEAL WITH THE ELECTRICAL GRID, FINALLY, UNDER TRUMP, AND ONLY 40 MILLION HAD BEEN SPENT.

AND I WENT TO CHECK IT.

40 MILLION HAS BEEN SPENT.

AND IT WENT FURTHER.

$21 BILLION WAS ALLOTTED FOR OVERALL PUBLIC PROJECTS.

ONLY 2% OF THAT HAS BEEN ALLOTTED ACCORDING TO G.A.O.

's HOMEHAND SECURITY OFFICE.

WHERE IS THE INCREDIBLE DISCONNECT, MAYOR?

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE, YOU'RE RIGHT IN DISBELIEVING THAT.

ONE CANNOT FATHOM THAT THAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH A DIRE SITUATION THAT PUERTO RICANS LIVED AFTER THE PASSING HURRICANE MARIA.

THE DISCONNECT IS A COUPLE OF THINGS.

NUMBER ONE, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO DOES IT, WHENEVER YOU WEAPONIZE FOR POLITICAL REASON, AID, THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN.

AND THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT OF PUERTO RICO HAS REALLY HOARDED THE FUNDS, SAYING WE'RE GOING TO USE THEM AND DISTRIBUTE THEM, AND THAT ADDS ANOTHER LAYER OF BUREAUCRACY, NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A -- AND I'M GOING TO CALL IT A COOKIE CUTTER, ROBUST PROGRAM FOR RECONSTRUCTION.

FOR EXAMPLE, IF WE HAVE TO BUILD AND RECONSTRUCT COMMUNITY CENTERS AROUND PUERTO RICO, WHY DO WE HAVE TO HAVE ONE COMMUNITY CENTER BEING DESIGNED BY ONE ARCHITECT IN ONE TOWN, AND THE SAME THING REPLICATED IN 77 OTHER TOWNS?

SO THERE ARE THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE DIFFERENTLY.

AND THE OTHER THING IS REALLY THE LACK OF WILL TO BREAKTHROUGH THE BARRIERS THAT NEED TO BE PUSHED AWAY.

AND WE WANT TO LOOK FOR PERMANENT SOLUTIONS TO RECURRING PROBLEMS.

AND THE STRUCTURAL CHANGES THAT NEED TO TAKE LEASE, LIKE THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO TAKE PLACE ON THE ELECTRICAL GRID, AND THAT'S ON US.

THAT'S NOT ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> Braude: AS AN OUTSIDER, THE RHETORIC HAS BEEN STRONGER FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

HAS OPERATIONALLY, HAS THERE BEEN A DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENT IN TERMS OF SUPPORT MADE?

>> THERE IS ONE GREAT IMPROVEMENT, WHICH IS THAT THE GOAL IS TO SAVE LIVES.

WHEN YOU HAVE TO GOAL, EVERYTHING ELSE FALLS INTO PLACE.

OF COURSE ONLY YESTERDAY IT STOPPED RAINING IN PUERTO RICO.

AND RIGHT NOW THE FIRST 72 TO THE FIRST WEEK, YOU'RE REALLY ON A RESCUE MISSION, WHICH IS WHY FEMA JUST PUSHED A LOT OF PEOPLE DOWN TO PUERTO RICO FOR THE RESCUE MISSION.

RIGHT NOW THERE IS ANOTHER EXPECTED TO -- IT IS EXPECTED TO RAIN THE ENTIRE WEEKEND IN PUERTO RICO, WHICH WILL MAKE MATTERS EVEN WORSE, WITH A LOT OF FLOODING.

SO WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR IS THERE ARE 300 PEOPLE FROM FEMA THERE IN PUERTO RICO, BUT THE AID HAS TO START FLOWING.

SO FAR WHAT I HEAR FROM MAYORS IS THAT THAT HAS NOT TAKEN PLACE.

>> Braude: I'M NOT THE ONLY PERSON WHO WHEN WE HEARD TRUMP'S COMMENTS ABOUT PUERTO RICO AFTER MARIA WERE PRETTY CLEAR HE HAD NO IDEA WHAT THE RELATIONSHIP OF PUERTO RICO WAS TO THE UNITED STATES, NO IDEA THEY WERE CITIZENS.

MAYBE HIS BEHAVIOR, TEAR TO SAY FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, WAS BORN OF BOTH EGG IGNORANCE AND RACISM BECAUSE PUERTO RICANS ARE NOT FROM EUROPE.

I'M NOT SO SURE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE UNDERSTAND MUCH BETTER THAT EVEN WITH FEWER RIGHTS, THAT PEOPLE IN PUERTO RICO ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES.

AM I WRONG IN THAT REGARD?

>> NO -- I DON'T THINK YOU'RE WRONG.

I THINK WE STRUGGLE OURSELVES TO UNDERSTAND OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES, ESPECIALLY IN TIMES LIKE THIS.

FOR EXAMPLE, WE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THE U.S.

V.I., WHICH IS A FEW MILES FROM PUERTO RICO, HAS A TOTAL EXEMPTION FOR ENERGY PURPOSES FROM THE JONES ACT, BUT WE DON'T HAVE AN EXEMPTION FOR THE JONES ACT AT A TIME LIKE THIS, LET ALONE FOREVER.

>> Braude: WHAT DOES THE JONES ACT DO?

>> IT REQUIRES EVERYTHING THAT COMES INTO PUERTO RICO TO COME THROUGH A SHIP THAT HAS A U.S.

FLAG, OR IF IT IS A FOREIGN FLAG, THEY HAVE TO DECIDE WHICH PORT THEY GO TO FIRST.

SO, OF COURSE, IF YOU HAVE 3.2 MILLION PEOPLE AND YOU HAVE 300 MILLION PEOPLE, YOU'RE GOING TO COME TO THE U.S.

PORT FIRST.

SO IT IS A DIFFICULT RELATIONSHIP.

WE ARE U.S. CITIZENS BY BIRTH, SINCE 1941.

THE YOU ASK MOST PUERTO RICANS, THEY'LL TELL YOU, I'M PUERTO RICAN, AND WE DEFINE OURSELVES AS PUERTO RICAN.

WE HAVE A BIG POPULATION OF PUERTO RICANS IN BOSTON AND ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES.

BUT TIMES LIKE THIS MAKE IT A LOT CLEARER -- AND I DON'T LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THE POLITICAL STATUS OF PUERTO RICO IN A CRISIS, BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE DISRESPECTIVE TO YOU.

TIMES LIKE THIS CALL FOR A REAL CONSENSUS, A MOVING FORWARD FOR THE PEOPLE OF PUERTO RICO.

THE OPTIONS ARE CLEARLY DEFINED.

AND THEN A NEW RELATIONSHIP CAN BE ESTABLISHED BECAUSE I THINK IT IS SAFE TO SAY MOST PUERTO RICANS WANT TO HAVE SOME SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES.

>> Braude: BUT YOU DON'T SUPPORT STATEHOOD.

WHAT IS THAT RELATIONSHIP THAT YOU THINK WOULD MAKE IT LESS LIKELY THAT NIGHTMARES LIKE THIS WOULD HAPPEN AGAIN?

>> I PREFER A FREE ASSOCIATION, COMPACT LIFE, LIKE THE U.S. HAS WITH OTHER FOREIGN TERRITORIES.

WHAT I PREFER IS WHAT IS GOING TO GIVE PUERTO RICO THE TOOLS TO DEPEND LESS ON FEDERAL MONEY AND TO HAVE AN ECONOMY THAT CAN PARTICIPATE MORE IN THE U.S. ECONOMY.

FOR EXAMPLE, MANY YEARS AGO PUERTO RICO WAS THE MECCA OF PHARMACEUTICALS.

13 OUT OF THE MOST USED PRODUCTS AND DRUGS IN THE WORLD WERE AHEAD IN PUERTO RICO.

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE I.V.s THAT ARE USED FOR THE ARMED FORCES ARE MADE IN PUERTO RICO.

SO WE CAN CONTRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES BY BECOMING A PHARMACEUTICAL MECCA, BUT ALSO BY HOLDING OUR OWN.

I THINK IT IS FAIR TO SAY THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ELECTRICAL GRID AND YOU LOOK AT THE DATA, $9 BILLION AND ONLY $20 MILLION USED, WE NEED TO LOOK AT THAT VERY DIFFERENTLY.

RIGHT NOW IF YOU LOOK AT PUERTO RICO, THE GRID IS JUST ONE BIG GRID.

SO LET'S DIVIDE THAT GRID INTO FOUR GRIDS SO THAT IF THE LIGHT AND THE ELECTRICITY GOES OUT IN THE SOUTHERN PART, IT DOESN'T AFFECT SAN JUAN AND THE NORTHERN PART.

>> Braude: BEFORE YOU GO, OF ALL OF THE VIDEO I HAVE SEEN, AND I DON'T MEAN THIS DISRESPECTFULLY TO THE PASSING OF THE QUEEN, BUT USUALLY THE STORY OF PUERTO RICO WAS A LITTLE BOX IN THE RIGHT-HAND CORNER.

BUT IN THE MOMENTS WHEN PUERTO RICO GOT THE ATTENTION IT DESERVED, I CAN'T ERASE THE IMAGE OF A MAN STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF RUIN A FEW DAYS AGO, PRACTICALLY CRYING, DESCRIBING WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO HAVE SPENT FIVE YEARS REBUILDING HIS NEIGHBORHOOD, AND AS HE AND HIS NEIGHBORS APPROACHED COMPLETION, OR AT LEAST AN IMPORTANT STAGE, IT ALL CAME TUMBLING DOWN.

TO GET THROUGH THAT REQUIRES A HUGE AMOUNT OF RESILIENCE.

I DON'T HAVE IT IN ME.

HOW DOES ONE -- HOW DO YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY -- HOW DO THEY GET THROUGH NIGHTMARE AFTER NIGHTMARE AND CONTINUE TO SURVIVE AND, HOPEFULLY PROSPER.

>> LET ME PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE, IN THE FIVE YEARS, WE HAVE GONE THROUGH TWO MAJOR HURRICANES, POLITICAL UNREST, BANKRUPTCY, TWO MAJOR EARTHQUAKES, THE PANDEMIC, AND NOW THIS.

IF YOU LOOK AT RESILIENCE IN THE WEBSTER DICTIONARY, THERE SHOULD BE A PICTURE OF PUERTO RICO.

THAT SHOULD REDEFINE WHY RESILIENCY IS.

YOU TAKE AHOLD OF YOUR FAITH, YOU LOOK AT YOUR NEIGHBORS, AND YOU KNOW THAT THERE IS NO PLAN "B."

THAT YOU HAVE TO DO WHAT MUST BE DONE TO PUSH ON BECAUSE AFTER ALL THE STRENGTH LIES IN EACH ONE OF US.

I'M GOING TO PUERTO RICO TOMORROW -- ON FRIDAY -- TO SPEND A WEEK THERE, TO HELP TELL LOW MAYORS.

IF IT IS A BROOM I HAVE TO PICK TO GET SOME OF THE MUD OUT OF THE STREET, THAT'S WHAT I WILL DO.

IT IS TIMES LIKE THIS WHEN THE HUMAN SPIRIT SOARS REAL HIGH.

BUT THE THING IS WE NEED TO LOOK FOR PERMANENT SOLUTIONS TO THESE RECURRENT REMEMBERS.

THE SOUL OF THE PUERTO RICAN PEOPLE IS READY TO FIGHT, BUT IT IS ALSO FATIGUED AND SPENT.

>> Braude: GOOD LUCK TO YOU, AND GOOD LUCK ON YOUR TRIP.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR NOT FORGETTING US.

>> Braude: THANKS.

WE WANTED TO OFFER A QUICK UPDATE ON THE LEGAL QUESTIONS WE TALKED ABOUT ON MONDAY TALKED ABOUT MONDAY SURROUNDING THE GROUP OF MIGRANTS WHO WERE TRICKED INTO GETTING ON A PLANE TO MARTHA'S VINEYARD.

LAWYERS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS AND THE NON-PROFIT ALIANZA AMERICAS HAVE OFFICIALLY FILED A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT ON BEHALF OF THE MIGRANTS, AGAINST FLORIDA GOVERNOR RON DESANTIS AND THE OTHERS WHO HAVE CLAIMED CREDIT FOR THE SCHEME.

>> WE REPRESENT NOT ONLY THE STRANDED MIGRANTS IN THE VINEYARD, BUT ALL SIMILARLY SITUATED MIGRANTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHO HAVE BEEN FRAUDULENTLY INDUCED BY GOVERNOR DESANTIS IN FLORIDA TO CROSS STATE LINES THROUGH MISREPRESENTATION.

AND WE ARE SEEKING A NATION-WIDE INJUCNTION TO BLOCK GOVERNOR DESANTIS IN FLORIDA FROM ENGAGING IN THESE ACTIVITIES, WHICH ENDANGER HUMAN LIVES.

>> BRAUDE: IN A MOVE THAT REALLY TAKES CHUTZPAH, DESANTIS RESPONDED BY CALLING THE LAWSUIT "POLITICAL THEATER!"

NEXT UP, THE PRESIDENTIAL DECLARATION THAT SPARKED CELEBRATION, CONFUSION, AND ANGER, DEPENDING ON WHO YOU ASKED: >> THE PANDEMIC IS-- IS OVER.

WE STILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH COVID, WE'RE STILL DOING A LOT OF WORK ON IT, IT'S-- BUT THE PANDEMIC IS OVER.

>> BRAUDE: AND EVER SINCE BIDEN UTTERED THOSE WORDS, THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY AND BEYOND HAS BEEN DEBATING.

THE PRESIDENT LATER CLARIFIED HIS STATEMENT SLIGHTLY, SAYING "THE PANDEMIC IS NO LONGER WHERE IT WAS," AND THE NEXT DAY, HIS CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISOR, ANTHONY FAUCI, WAS EVEN MORE CAUTIOUS IN HIS ASSESSMENT.

>> WE ARE NOT WHERE WE NEED TO BE, IF WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO "LIVE WITH THE VIRUS," BECAUSE WE KNOW WE'RE NOT GOING TO ERADICATE IT.

>> BRAUDE: RIGHT NOW, THE DAILY AVERAGE FOR NEW CASES IS OVER 54,000, AND THAT'S JUST THE PEOPLE REPORTING THEIR CASES.

THERE ARE AROUND 400 DEATHS PER DAY, NEW HOSPITALIZATIONS ARE HOVERING OVER 4,000, AND THE ONLY UNDERWHELMING NUMBER?

NOT EVEN 35% OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ELIGIBLE FOR A BOOSTER HAVE GOTTEN AT LEAST ONE.

I'M JOINED BY WILLIAM HANAGE, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF EPIDEMIOLOGY AT HARVARD'S CHAN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, AND A MEMBER OF THE SCHOOL'S CENTER FOR COMMUNICABLE DISEASE DYNAMICS, AND DR. MEGAN RANNEY, AN EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN AND ACADEMIC DEAN OF THE BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH.

>> Braude: WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: DR. RANNEY, IS JOE BIDEN RIGHT?

IS THE PANDEMIC OVER?

>> I WISH HE WERE RIGHT.

BUT BOTH AS A EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN AND A PUBLIC HEALTH PROFESSIONAL, I KNOW UNFORTUNATELY THAT THE PANDEMIC IS STILL GOING ON.

LISTEN, WE'RE ABSOLUTELY IN A DIFFERENT PHASE.

OUR LIVED EXPERIENCE IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT IT WAS SIX MONTHS AGO, MUCH LESS A YEAR OR TWO YEARS AGO, THANKS TO VACCINES, BOOSTERS, IMPROVEMENTS IN TREATMENT, AND IMPROVED VENTILATION.

BUT THE REALITY IS THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF FOLKS WHO ARE GETTING SICK EVERY DAY.

A LOT OF FOLKS WHO ARE DYING.

AND THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION ITSELF IS STILL QUITE CLEAR THAT WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF A PANDEMIC.

I'LL TELL YOU -- >> Braude: I'M SORRY.

GO AHEAD.

>> MY BIGGEST FEAR ABOUT THIS STATEMENT IS THAT IT IS GOING TO DISSUADE FOLKS FROM GETTING THOSE NEW BOOSTERS, FROM MASKING DURING A SURGE, AND THEREFORE WILL PROLONG THE PANDEMIC PHASE BEYOND WHERE IT NEEDS TO GO.

>> Braude: WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON, WILLIAM HANAGE?

>> WELL, JIM, I'M GOING TO ECHO A LOT OF WHAT WE JUST HEARD.

THE THING IS, WE'RE NOWHERE NEAR 2021, OR 2020, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN WE'RE IN 2019 YET.

WE STILL HAVE RESPIRATORY ILLNESS, EXCESS DEATHS, AND EVEN AT A POINT WHEN THINGS HAVE BEEN PLATEAUING, IT IS NOWHERE LIKE THE EARLY STAGES LIKE THE PANDEMIC, WE ARE STILL STRUGGLING TO GET PEOPLE THE HELP THAT THEY NEED.

AND WE CAN EXPECT THINGS TO GET WORSE IN THE WINTER MONTHS BECAUSE YOU NO WE KNOW WHAT HAS BEEN THE LAST FEW WINTERS?

IT IS WORSE.

>> Braude: THE 400 A DAY, JUST TO DO THE MATH, IT IS 150,000 PEOPLE A YEAR DYING FROM THIS DISEASE, EVEN AT THIS POINT.

I WON'T SPEND TIME WITH YOU TALKING ABOUT WHAT I CONSIDER TO BE THE POLITICAL MISTAKE THE PRESIDENT MADE.

PEOPLE LIKE SENATOR CORNYN FROM TEXAS, SAYS IF THIS IS OVER, THEN I WOULDN'T SUSPECT THEY NEED ANY MORE MONEY, EVEN THOUGH THE WHITE HOUSE IS REQUESTING BILLIONS.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID, DR. RANNEY.

FIRST BOOSTER DOSES IN THE UNITED STATES OF OVERALL POPULATION, FIVE AND OVER, 35%.

THE PERCENTAGE OF ELIGIBLE KIDS UNDER FIVE, 7%.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO A PATIENT WHO HAS BEEN A SKEPTIC SO FAR, WHO WALKS INTO YOUR OFFICE AND SAYS, JOE BIDEN SAYS THIS IS OVER.

I WASN'T GOING TO GET IT LAST WEEK.

I SURE AS HELL AM NOT GOING TO GET IT THIS WEEK.

>> I TALK TO THEM ABOUT THE FACT I AM STILL SEEING DAILY CASES IN THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT.

AND THE BIG THING WE KNOW MAKES A DIFFERENCE IS THAT BOOSTER.

I TALK ABOUT HOW THE NEW BOOSTER IS NEW AND IMPROVED.

IT IS UPDATED FOR THESE NEW VARIANTS, FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2020.

WE HAVE A SHOT THAT MATCHES THE VARIANTS THAT ARE OUT THERE.

AND HOW EXCITING THAT IS.

AND THE BEST I CAN DO IS TALK THEM THROUGH THEIR FEARS AND TALK ABOUT THE BENEFITS.

AND A PERCENTAGE GO AND GET THE SHOT, BUT NOT ALL.

>> Braude: IT IS A HARDER NUT TO CRACK AFTER THE COMMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT ON SUNDAY NIGHT, DR. RANNEY, IS IT NOT?

>> THAT IS RIGHT.

IT IS A HARDER NUT TO CRACK ON THE PATIENT LEVEL, ON THE COMMUNITY LEVEL, AND ON THE POLITICAL LEVEL, AS YOU MENTIONED.

>> Braude: BILL WILLIAM HANAGE, WHAT IS THE CRITERION FOR YOU THAT WOULD CAUSE YOU TO UTTER THE WORDS THE PRESIDENT UTTERED, THE PANDEMIC IS OVER.

WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, THE PANDEMIC DON'T END WITH A BANG OR A TICKER TAKE PARADE.

SO FOR ME, I THINK IT IS WHEN WE START SEEING LEVELS OF BACKGROUND ILLNESS WHICH IS HOAR MORE TORRENTIAL THAN THEY ARE NOW.

AT SOME POINT WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO BE SEEING A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF DISEASE AND DEATH WHICH WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO START DEALING WITH AND CONSIDER IT TORRENTIAL.

I DON'T THINK WHERE WE ARE NOW IS WHERE WE WANT TO BE.

THERE ARE STILL FOLKS OUT THERE WHO NEEDS BOOSTERS, AND PEOPLE STRUGGLING TO ACCESS THERAPIES WHICH ARE AFFECTIVE.

WE SHOULD BE LOOKING TO HELP THOSE PEOPLE.

THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO TAKE THIS AND REALLY TURN IT BEYOND THE PANDEMIC PHASE.

>> Braude: DR. RANNEY, DO YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT CRITERIA?

>> NO.

THE CRITERIA IS THAT WE'RE SEEING SURGES IN CERTAIN POPULATIONS.

AND FOR A PANDEMIC, IT IS WE'RE SEEING THOSE SURGES ACROSS THE GLOBE.

NOT ONLY DO WE NEED TO GET FOLKS VACCINATED AND BOOSTED IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO OUR SISTER AND BROTHER COUNTRIES ACROSS THE WORLD, TO HELP THEM GET VACCINATED AS WELL.

>> Braude: DR. RANNEY, STAYING WITH YOU TOR FOR A MINUTE, THERE WAS THE EDITORIAL, WHICH IS WHERE YOU TWO ARE, AND THERE WAS DR. LINA WYNN SAYING HE IS RIGHT, IT IS OVER.

HER ARGUMENTS SEEMED TO BE IT IS OVER BECAUSE THE PUBLIC SAYS IT IS OVER.

AND I THINK THAT WAS PRETTY MUCH WHAT JOE BIDEN WAS SAYING, WHEN HE WAS SAYING YOU DON'T SEE ANYBODY WEARING A MASK.

ISN'T THERE SOMETHING TO THAT, WHICH SO MUCH OF THE PUBLIC HAS BEEN CONCERNED, THAT THE PUBLIC HEALTH WORLD, YOU TWO AND OTHERS, HAVE BEEN AHEAD OF THEM ON THESE THINGS, MAYBE IT MAKES SOME SENSE TO GO WHERE THE PUBLIC IS, IF YOU UNDERSTAND HIGH QUESTION?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT'S WHY I START MY SENTENCE BY ACKNOWLEDGING WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT PHASE.

MY KIDS, HIGH KIDS MY PARENTS, MY COMMUNITY, WE'RE LIVING LIFE DIFFERENTLY THAN WE DID A YEAR AGO.

THAT IS THE GOAL FOR PUBLIC HEALTH, TO SET UP SYSTEMS SO PEOPLE CAN GO ABOUT THEIR DAILY BUSINESS, AND STAY HEALTHY WITHOUT EVEN THINKING ABOUT IT.

THE TROUBLE IS THAT WORD, "PANDEMIC," HAS VERY SPECIFIC IMPLICATIONS IN THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND THE POLICY WORLD.

FOR THE AVERAGE PERSON, THE WORLD IS DIFFERENT.

IT'S DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE MET THE CRITERIA FOR A PANDEMIC TO BE OVER.

>> Braude: WILLIAM HANAGE, I DON'T HAVE HARD EVIDENCE IN FRONT OF ME, BUT I THINK I'M RIGHT IN WHAT I SAID TO DR. RANNEY, IS THE REASON THAT YOU AND A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN YOUR WORLD ARE IN DIFFERENT PLACES, BECAUSE THE MESSAGING HAS BEEN WEAK, FOR LACK OF A BETTER EXPRESSION, OR CONFLICTING?

>> I THINK PARTIALLY IT IS JUST PERCEPTION.

ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE ALWAYS BEEN AWARE OF FROM THE VERY START OF IT, PEOPLE LIKE ME, WHO ARE TALKING TO PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING WE RAN OUT OF I.C.

NURSES LAST NIGHT AND WE'RE IN THE THICK OF IT.

WE'VE KNOWN FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS HOW BAD THIS IS.

BUT FOR ORDINARY FOLKS, IT KIND OF HAS RECEDED.

THE NUMBER YOU PUT OUT THERE, 150,000 DEATHS IN A YEAR.

THAT IS THREE BAD FLU SEASONS.

BUT MOST FOLKS DON'T REMEMBER WHEN THE LAST BAD FLU SEASON IS.

THE GENERAL PUBLIC CAN BE UNDERSTOOD FOR THINKING ABOUT IT IN A DIFFERENT LIGHT.

>> Braude: I WANT TO STAY ON MESSAGING, FOR A SECOND, I PLAYED A MINUTE AGO ABOUT DR. ANTHONY FAUCI SAYING SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

THERE IS A GUY YOU MAY KNOW, HAS A CONNECTION TO YOUR SCHOOL, HE WAS A FREQUENT GUEST ON THIS SHOW BEFORE HAY HE WAS PROMOTED.

HERE IS DR. JHA, ADMITTEDLY TWO WEEKS BEFORE YESTERDAY.

BUT, NEVERTHELESS, ONLY TWO WEEKS.

HERE HE IS.

>> THE PANDEMIC ISN'T OVER, AND WE WILL REMAIN VIGILANT.

AND, OF COURSE, WE WILL CONTINUE TO LOOK FOR AND PREPARE FOR UNFORESEEN TWISTS AND TURNS.

>> Braude: HE IS ON THE LEAVE DEAN AT THE SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH AT BROWN.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Braude: THAT CONFLICTING MESSAGING REACHED EPIC PROPORTIONS DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

BUT EVEN WITH SERIOUS PROFESSIONALS IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, WHEN YOU HAVE JHA HERE, FAUCI HERE, AND BIDEN HERE, THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR PUBLIC MESSAGING, IS IT?

>> IT IS A LITTLE CHALLENGING.

THE GOOD SIDE HERE IS THAT BIDEN DID ACKNOWLEDGE THAT COVID IS VERY MUCH AMONGST US STILL AND WE HAVE TO FIGHT AGAINST IT.

IT IS NOT THAT HE WAS SAYING MISSION ACCOMPLISHED OR THAT COVID IS OVER, AND THE H.H.S.

SECRETARY HAS BACKED THAT UP IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS.

IT GETS TO THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PUBLIC HEALTH WORLD'S LANGUAGE OF WHAT A PANDEMIC IS AND THE LARGER WORLD'S EXPERIENCE.

WE WANT THE WORLD TO EXPERIENCE REGULAR LIFE, THAT'S THE GOAL.

BUT OUR GOAL IN HEALTH CARE AND PUBLIC HEALTH IS TO PREVENT UNNECESSARY SUFFERING AND DEATH.

AS MY DEAN SAID, STAY VIGILANT.

>> Braude: BEFORE YOU GO, ONE LAST THING: THE PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS LIKE YOU, WITH WHOM I SPOKE PRETTY REGULARLY, STARTING WITH YOU, WILLIAM HANAGE, WOULD SAY THE ONLY BRIGHT SPOT, AND I'M PARAPHRASING, IN THIS CARNAGE THAT WE'RE LIVING THROUGH, WE'RE GOING TO LEARN A LOT OF LESSONS.

PEOPLE IN POSITIONS OF POWER, REAL PEOPLE ON THE GROUND ARE GOING TO LEARN HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO HAVE AN AFFIRMATIVE, FULLY-FUNDED, ENDORSED PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM.

AT LEAST FROM WHERE I SIT, WE HAVE LEARNED VIRTUALLY NOTHING.

IS THAT AN UNFAIR CHARACTERIZATION OF WHERE WE ARE IN SEPTEMBER OF 2022?

>> I THINK IT IS A LITTLE UNFAIR FOR SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THE POSITIONS OF POWER.

SOME OF THEM HAVE COME TO REALIZE THAT YOU SHOULD TAKE ACTION EARLIER THAN LATER.

BUT AS YOU CAN SEE TO THE RESPONSES OF MONKEYPOX AND POLIO, WE STILL HAVE A LOT TO LEARN.

WHEN IT COMES TO PANDEMIC, THOUGH, I WANT TO CLOSE THAT POINTING OUT IN 1918-'19, WE THINK OF THEIR BEING THREE WAVES.

THIS WAS THE BIG FLU WAVE IN THE 20th CENTURY.

EXCESS DEATHS CONSIDERED FOR A CONSIDERABLE TIME AFTER THAT.

WE JUST LABELED THE FIRST THREE WAVES AS BEING THE PANDEMIC.

>> Braude: THAT WAS 1917, AS DONALD TRUMP CALLED IT.

DR. RANNEY, FINAL WORD FROM YOU ON WHETHER WE'VE LEARNED LESSONS?

>> I THINK WE'VE LEARNED SOME LESSONS, BUT NOT ENOUGH.

IF I TAKE OFF MY PUBLIC HEALTH HAT AND PUT ON MY EMERGENCY PHYSICIAN HAT, I CAN SAY THAT ONE OF MY HOPES EARLY IN THE PANDEMIC WAS THAT WE WOULD UNDERSTAND THE IMPORTANCE OF ADEQUATELY FUNDING AND SUPPORTING THE EMERGENCY CARE SYSTEM.

I CAN SAY WHEN I SHOW UP IN MY E.R.

ON A THURSDAY OR FRIDAY NIGHT, THINGS ARE WORSE THAN THEY HAVE EVER BEEN.

STAFFING ARE AT LOWER LEVELS, BURNOUT IS HIGHER, PATIENT VOLUME -- WE'RE BURSTING THROUGH THE SEEMS OF OUR WAITING ROOMS ACROSS NEW ENGLAND AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

I WOULD LOVE NOTHING MORE THAN TO SEE US MAKE SURE THAT FOLKS HAVE ACCESS TO EMERGENCY AND IN-PATIENT CARE WHEN AND WHERE THEY NEED IT.

I'M NOT SURE WE HAVE LEARNED THAT LESSON AT ALL.

>> Braude: THANK YOU BOTH TOR YOUR WORK AND YOUR TIME.

REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW.

FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE NANCY GERTNER AND LAURENCE TRIBE JOIN ME ON THE NEW YORK A.G.'S LAWSUIT AGAINST FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THREE OF HIS CHILDREN, AS WELL AS THE STATUS OF THE D.O.J.

'S INVESTIGATION, AS WELL AS THE ONE IN GEORGIA.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE NOR PUERTO RICO.

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