IS THAT A SPAT SIGN THAT SUPPORTS UKRAINE'S COUNTEROFFENSIVE IS WANING AMONG ITS FIERCE ITS ALLIES.

I ASKED THE FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR.

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT APPEALING TO WORLD LEADERS AT THE UN AND IS IN WASHINGTON TO SHORE UP SUPPORT FOR AID FROM CONGRESS.

I SPOKE TO THE ACTING DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE.

>>> THEN, THE SYRIAN PRESIDENT ON THE WORLD STAGE IN PART TWO OF MY EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE PRIME MINISTER I ASK HIM ABOUT HIS STATES CRUCIAL ROLE MEDIATING FROM SYRIA TO AFGHANISTAN AND MUCH MORE.

ALSO AHEAD.

>>> WE ARE IN A BETTER WORLD >> TALKING TO COLOMBIAN LAW PROFESSOR THE AUTHOR OF THE CURSIVE BIGNESS ANTITRUST IN THE NEW GILDED AGE.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J GLESSNER.

MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE .

I'M IN NEW YORK.

WORLD LEADERS ARE WRAPPING UP ANOTHER UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

A SUMMIT THAT WAS FINDING ABOUT UNITY AND SOLIDARITY FROM A WAR IN UKRAINE.

THE SAME WITH CONGRESSIONAL LEADERS AT THE PENTAGON AND HE WILL WITH THE WHITE HOUSE MEETING WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN.

CLOSER TO HOME.

ONE OF HIS ARDENT SUPPORTERS THE NEIGHBOR, POLAND SAYING THAT THEY WILL STOP SENDING WEAPONS ACROSS THE BORDER.

RIGHT AT A CRITICAL TIME .

AN OFFENSIVE AGAINST RUSSIAN OCCUPATION.

AS IF ON CUE RUSSIA BOMBARDED THE COME CAPITAL WITH A BARRAGE OF MISSILES OVERNIGHT.

JOINING ME NOW IS THE FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO NATO.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM FROM WASHINGTON.

COULD I ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE POLISH MOVE?

IS IT STOPPING THE TRANSFER OF OTHER WEAPONS ?

>> IT'S INTENDED TO BE A SIGNAL THAT POLAND IS UNHAPPY ABOUT THE GRAIN EXPORTS THAT ARE LEAKING OUT WITH DEPRESSING PRICES.

WE ARE TRYING TO TAKE IT SERIOUSLY AND WE NEED YOU TO DO SO AS WELL.

THIS IS FOR DOMESTIC CONSUMPTION.

WHAT THIS MEANS I BELIEVE IS POLISH WEAPONS THEMSELVES POLAND'S OWN WEAPONRY.

THEY WILL PUT PROGRESS ON THIS NOW UNTIL THEY GET THIS ISSUE.

>> QUICKLY THEN .

THE ISSUE IS FUNDAMENTAL.

THIS IS A HUGE PART OF THE ECONOMY.

RUSSIA HAS BLOCKADED ITS NORMAL EXPORT ROUTES IN THE BLACK SEA.

THE EU HAS ALLOWED THE TRAIN TRANSPORT TO OTHER COUNTRIES HOW WILL THIS BE RESOLVED?

>> THIS WILL HAVE TO TAKE JOINT EFFORT BY POLAND AND UKRAINE TO DO A BETTER JOB POLICING THESE SHIPMENTS.

UKRAINE IS NOT TAKING ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT HAPPENED AFTER IT CROSSES THE POLISH BORDER I THINK IT'S PROBABLY THE UKRAINIAN AND POLISH BUSINESSMEN WORKING TOGETHER TO GET THIS ONTO THE POLISH MARKET RATHER THAN PAY THE EXTRA COST TO SHIP THIS ELSEWHERE WHICH HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT THESE SIDES WORK TOGETHER ON TO STOP.

>> I COULD READ BETWEEN THE LINES.

A LITTLE CORRUPTION AND BLACK- MARKET HEARING GOING ON THERE.

I SEE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND CLEARLY THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ISSUE BUT HOW ABOUT THIS THE POLISH PRESIDENT COMPARED UKRAINE TO A DROWNING PERSON.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAYS A DROWNING PERSON IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, HE COULD PULL YOU DOWN TO THE DEPTHS SIMPLY DROWN THE RESCUER, THIS OF COURSE WAS ROUNDLY AND WARMLY WELCOMED BY THE RUSSIAN FORCE FOREIGN MINISTRY.

THAT'S LIKE ARE WE GETTING TOO FAR INTO THIS RESCUE EFFORT?

DO WE NEED TO REASSESS WE COULD SEE THIS HAPPENING AROUND NOT JUST TO NATO AND CURRENT COUNTRIES BUT WITHIN THE CONGRESS.

>> I THINK TURNING THIS TO THE U.S. SIDE, THERE IS A GROWING SENSE THAT WE DO NOT SEE AN END IN SIGHT.

YOU COULD HEAR THAT FROM THE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, HOW MUCH WILL THIS COST?

HOW LONG WILL THIS GO ON.

THERE'S THIS FRUSTRATION BUT THE REALITY IS AS PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SEE PUTIN STOPPED OR SEE THE NEGOTIATED SOLUTION AND SEE RUSSIA WITHDRAW ITS FORCES, PUTIN IS DOING THIS ON PURSES, HE'S TAKING TERRITORY AND KILLING UKRAINIANS TO REBUILD RUSSIA AND ITS EMPIRE.

EVEN THOUGH WE MAY BE TIRED HE WILL NOT STOP.

THE ONLY WAY THIS WILL REALLY END IS FOR THE UKRAINIANS TO GET THE ARMAMENTS THEY NEED TO STOP THE RUSSIANS THEMSELVES.

THEY HAD BEEN MAKING GOOD PROGRESS BUT THEY NEED TO CONTINUE.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY A BIT OF MY INTERVIEW WITH STOLTENBERG TO THE NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL .

HE ESSENTIALLY REINFORCED WHAT MANY ARE WORRIED ABOUT THAT THIS COULD CONTINUE WITHOUT ANY END IN SIGHT.

LISTEN TO WHAT HE HAS SAID.

>> WE NEED TO BE PREPARED FOR A LONG WAR.

NOBODY KNOWS HOW LONG THIS WAR COULD LAST.

WARS BY NATURE ARE UNPREDICTABLE.

THE REALITY IS THAT THEY ARE STRONGER THAN WE WOULD EXPECT FROM THE START AND WE HAVE TO SEND A MESSAGE THAT THEY CANNOT WAIT US OUT.

>> FIRST OF ALL DO YOU THINK THAT THIS CURRENT SORT OF POLITICAL HANDWRINGING IN THE WEST AND AMONGST COUNTRIES AND NATO IS WHAT HE'S BEEN WAITING FOR?

IS THIS THE MOMENT HE'S BEEN HOPING TO CAPITALIZE ON?

>> I THINK HE'S HOPING FOR MORE.

YES, HE IS LOOKING FOR THE WEST TO BECOME TIRED AND SUSPEND SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE AND HOPING FOR POLITICAL CHANGES SUCH AS IN SLOVAKIA FOR EXAMPLE.

NATIONS TURN AGAINST 80 TO UKRAINE.

THEY COULD HOPE FOR SOMETHING ELSE IN THE U.S. ELECTION SO HE'S TRYING TO RIDE IT OUT BUT THERE'S TWO THINGS PEOPLE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND.

ONE OF THEM, PUTIN IS LOSING THE WAR AS IT IS.

UKRAINE HAS TAKEN BACK MORE THAN HALF OF ITS TERRITORY THAT RUSSIA TOOK IN THE BEGINNING AND MAKING PROGRESS IN THE SOUTH.

THE RUSSIANS ARE UNABLE TO ADVANCE AND TAKE MORE TERRITORY ANY LONGER.

THEY ARE BOMBING CITIES TO MAKE LIVES MISERABLE WHEN KILLING PEOPLE BUT THEY AREN'T ABLE TO ADVANCE SO THAT'S WHY HE'S PUSHING THE PRESSURE THE WAY HE IS.

THE SECOND, IF WE GIVE HIM TIME TO REGROUP THEN HE WILL.

HE WON'T END THE FIGHTING IN EUROPE OR STOP TRYING TO TAKE OVER UKRAINE.

HE WILL THREATEN MULTIPLE STATES IF HE ISN'T STOPPED IN UKRAINE SO WE HAVE AN INTEREST OURSELVES TO MAKE SURE HE HAS BEEN STOPPED THERE SO WE DON'T HAVE TO GO TO WAR TO DEFEND OUR ALLIES.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE NEXT FEW MONTHS COULD BRING?

YOU TALKED ABOUT BOMBING CITIES OVERNIGHT .

THE WINTER, THE FALL, IT'S COMING UP WORRYING ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE.

HEAT, ELECTRICITY .

WE UNDERSTAND FROM THE GENERAL THE RETIRING TOP GENERAL, UKRAINIANS MAY ONLY HAVE SIX WEEKS OR SO OF GOOD FIGHTING WEATHER LEFT BEFORE IT BECOMES IMPOSSIBLE TO MOVE ON THIS TERRAIN.

FROM A MILITARY PERSPECTIVE, DO YOU THINK ANYTHING LIKE SHOULD THERE BE A SURGE IN THE DELIVERIES AND NOW?

SHOULD THERE BE A CONSOLIDATION UNTIL THE NEXT FIGHTING SEASON, WHAT DO YOU SEE HAPPENING?

>> FIRST OFF I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD OVERSTATE THE IMPACT OF THE WEATHER.

THERE'S THE IMPACT OF COURSE, THERE'S RAINES, MUDD.

YOU COULD NOT PUT TRAPPED VEHICLES IN THE MUD THIS WAY BUT THERE'S OTHER WAYS THEY WILL CONTINUE TO KEEP ON FIGHTING AND AS WE HAD SEEN OVER THE LAST FEW WEEKS THERE WOULD BE THE INCREASE WITH THE USE OF DRONES BOTH IN THE AIR PRESSURE ON THE RUSSIANS REGARDLESS.

WITH THE LONG-RANGE ARTILLERY SYSTEMS TO TAKE OUT RUSSIAN LOGISTICAL SUPPLIES THAT'S WHERE I THINK THIS WILL GO.

IT DOESN'T JUST STOP AFTER SIX WEEKS BUT CHANGES AND WILL CONTINUE OVER TIME.

AS FAR AS WHAT TO EXPECT WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON THE OUTCOME.

IF RUSSIA IS NOT DEFEATED THEY WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT AND KILL .

IT'S GOING TO CONTINUE ON THIS WAY.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE CITIES AND THE POWER OUTAGES AND SO FORTH AS WE SAW LAST WINTER THAT IS WHAT RUSSIA WILL DO AGAIN.

SO, YES, WE SHOULD BE ACCELERATING THE AID TO UKRAINE TO PUSH RUSSIAN FORCES FOR THE BACK AND MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT FOR THEM TO DO SO.

>> OUTCOME IS ONE OF THESE THINGS THAT THE HOUSE SPEAKER KEVIN McCARTHY HAS ASKED ABOUT.

WHAT'S THE ENDGAME , RIGHT?

THE ADMINISTRATION IS BEING CONSPICUOUSLY SILENT ON THE ENDGAME BEYOND ITS GENERALITIES THAT UKRAINE HAS TO BE DEFENDED , ITS SOVEREIGNTY WITH RUSSIA BEING DEFEATED.

WHAT EXACTLY DOES THIS MEAN?

THEY HAVEN'T SAID TOTAL VICTORY OR SIGNED UP ON ZELENSKY'S 10 POINT PLAN WHICH CALLS THE FOR THE REMOVAL OF RUSSIAN OCCUPATION FORCES SO WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE U.S. AND NATO'S ENDGAME?

>> I THINK THERE HAS TO BE A MILITARY DEFEAT OF RUSSIAN FORCES INSIDE UKRAINE.

THIS PRINCIPALLY TAKES THE FORM OF CUTTING OFF THE LINES OF COMMUNICATION THAT RUSSIA IS USING TO SUPPLY THE FORCES IN SOUTHERN UKRAINE AND CRIMEA .

THERE'S THE STREET BRIDGE WHICH HAS BEEN DAMAGED AND THE NAVAL BASE .

THESE ARE THE KEY THINGS THAT UKRAINE NEEDS TO TAKE ON TO DISRUPT THE SUPPLIES TO THOSE FORCES.

IF THEY DO THIS SUCCESSFULLY RUSSIA WILL HAVE TO PULL BACK THOSE FORCES AND I THINK THAT THIS WILL CAUSE QUITE A A CHANGE.

THEY WILL NOT SUCCEED IN THE WAY THEY WANTED TO.

IF WE COULD HELP UKRAINIANS GET THROUGH THE PHASE IT WILL CAUSE CHANGE IN MOSCOW AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO FINALLY BRING THE FIGHTING TO A STOP.

>> YOU WORKED CLOSELY WITH JOHN McCAIN, SENATOR McCAIN, PRESIDENT BUSH.

YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN REPUBLICAN CIRCLES ESPECIALLY DURING A TIME WHERE A POLL BY CNN SAYS SHOULD CONGRESS SUPPORT ADDITIONAL FUNDING FOR UKRAINE .

55% SAID NO AND 45% SAID YES.

THIS IS A SHIFT IN PUBLIC OPINION SO WHAT IS PRESIDENT ZELENSKY SAYING WHEN HE'S ON CAPITOL HILL?

>> I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS , YOU MENTIONED JOHN McCAIN AND GEORGE BUSH THEY WOULD BE OUT THERE LEADING THIS THEY WOULD BE MAKING THE CASE TO EXPLAIN AMERICA'S INTERESTS IN THIS AND WE DON'T SEE ENOUGH OF THIS NOW.

WHAT ZELENSKY NEEDS TO DO, HE NEEDS TO CONVEY APPRECIATION SOMETIMES THEY ARE SO DESPERATE THAT THEY NEED MORE AND THE NEED TO KEEP FIGHTING THAT I THINK THEY AREN'T MAKING CLEAR THEY DO APPRECIATE WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE CONGRESS HAVE PROVIDED ALREADY WHICH IS IMPORTANT.

SECOND IS ITS ACCOUNTABILITY.

PEOPLE TAKE SERIOUSLY THE CONCERN ABOUT POSSIBLE CORRUPTION OR WHERE THE MONEY IS GOING AND THEY NEED TO CONVEY THAT THEY TAKE SERIOUSLY RESPONSIBILITY FOR ASSURING THE ASSISTANCE IS WELL USED AND IT'S NOT BEEN SIPHONED OFF FOR ANY KIND OF CORRUPTION.

TO MAKE THE STAKES CLEAR, UKRAINE WILL CONTINUE FIGHTING NO MATTER WHAT.

THEY DON'T HAVE A CHOICE.

THESE ARE THEIR HOMES, THEIR LIVES, THEIR RELATIVES AND FAMILIES.

THEY CANNOT JUST GIVE THEM UP.

THE BETTER THING FOR THE U.S. IS TO HELP THEM TO ACTUALLY GET THROUGH THIS AND DO THIS QUICKLY RATHER THAN BE SLOW OUT TO SEE MORE LIVES LOST BECAUSE UKRAINIANS WILL FIGHT ANYWAY SO WE MAY AS WELL GIVE THEM WHAT WE CAN TO HELP THEM AND IT SOONER.

>> CERTAINLY THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY.

YOUR POINT OF ACCOUNTABILITY SAW THE PRESIDENT FIRED A RASTER OF DEPUTY CITIZENS BEFORE HE CAME TO THE UN AND WENT TO CAPITOL HILL TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY GOT HE'S TAKING CORRUPTION SERIOUSLY.

THE QUESTION IS, THIS GATHERING SOUND OF NOISE TOWARD PUSHING UKRAINE TOWARD NEGOTIATIONS.

THE FOREIGN MINISTER TOLD ME HE SAID PUBLICLY THE IDEA OF TAKING RUSSIA'S WORD WHICH BY THE WAY THEY DIDN'T WANT TO SIT DOWN SERIOUSLY AT ANY TIME, MUST HAVE BEEN DISPROVEN BY THE ALLEGED ASSASSINATION OF ONE WHO TOOK HIS GUARANTEE OF SAFE PASSAGE AND WAS BLOWN OUT OF THE END.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN IT COMES TO THE IDEA OF THE TIMES TO NEGOTIATE WILL HAPPEN?

>> I DON'T SEE ANY REASON WHY VLADIMIR PUTIN IS GOING TO NEGOTIATE.

IT'S NOT A SEPARATE NATIONALITY OR SEPARATE IDENTITY.

HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE.

HIS IDEA IS TO EXTERMINATE UKRAINE.

HE'S COMMITTED HIMSELF TO THIS PATH.

WE DON'T HAVE A NEGOTIATING PARTNER.

I DON'T THINK YOU REALLY GET TO THE NEGOTIATIONS UNTIL THE RUSSIAN FORCES ARE ACTUALLY DEFEATED.

THEN YOU CAN HAVE A POINT WHERE YOU COULD SAY ALL RIGHT NOW WE NEED TO BUILD A NEW STABLE BORDER THAT RUSSIA WILL RESPECT.

>> FINALLY, ON THE IDEA OF THE GLOBAL SOUTH, TRYING TO GET MORE COUNTRIES ON BOARD TO THE NARRATIVE OF THE DEFENSE OF UKRAINE , PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD A GOOD MEETING WITH THE MAIN NATIONS.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKY MET WITH PRESIDENT LULA ON THE SIDELINES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE BEST THAT COULD BE HOPED FOR MANY OF THE COUNTRIES WHO HAVE NOT YET FULLY BOUGHT IN TO THE WESTERN AND UKRAINIAN NARRATIVE OF THE NECESSARY DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT ARGUMENT IS THE ONE THAT WOULD WORK THE BEST WITH THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

THEY WILL LOOK AT IT AND SAY LOOK, YOU COLONIZED US, YOUR WARS ARE NOT NECESSARILY OUR WARS.

WE DON'T NEED THIS WAR.

YOU GUYS DO THIS.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE UN-SYMPATHETIC TO UKRAINE THEY DON'T THINK IT IS THEIR CAUSE.

THE ARGUMENT THAT'S MORE IMPORTANT, RUSSIA'S WAR AGAINST UKRAINE IS IMPACTING THEM ALREADY IN A NEGATIVE WAY.

IT'S CAUSING INTERRUPTION OF SUPPLY LINES AND SUPPLY CHAINS FOR A BUSINESS AND CAUSING A SPIKE IN ENERGY PRICES AND CAUSING INFLATION.

THIS IS INTERRUPTING GLOBAL FOOD SUPPLIES.

THESE ARE SERIOUS IMPACTS RUSSIA'S WAR HAS CAUSED WITH AN INTEREST IN SEEING IT AND >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED IN A MOMENT WE HOPE TO HEAR FROM VICTORIA NEWLAND THE ACTING DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE.

TURNING OUT TO PART TWO OF MY EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW, WITH THE QATARI PRIME MINISTER.

I ASKED HIM ABOUT STABILITY AND POSSIBLE THE DEALS AND HIS TAKE ON ONE REJOINING THE ARAB LEAGUE.

>> YOU MENTIONED SYRIA, THE VICTIM OF A WAR OVER MANY YEARS.

TERRIBLE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS.

INVOLVED , AT ONE POINT YOU THE QATARI'S SAID YOU SAID YOU COULD NOT TOLERATE OR CRIMINAL LIKE ASSAD.

>> OUR POSITION ON SYRIA WE SAID CLEARLY WHEN THERE WAS A DECISION ON BRINGING BACK SYRIA TO THE ARAB LEAGUE , OUR POSITION WE STILL DON'T SEE ANYTHING THAT MAKES HIM ILLEGITIMATE TO COME BACK.

WE DON'T WANT TO BREAK THE CONSENSUS ON THIS DECISION BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY ONE WOULD NOT WANT TO WANE IN THE MATTERS ON THAT.

THE ARAB COUNTRIES HAVE THEIR FRONT PERSPECTIVE.

WE DIDN'T WANT TO OBJECT TO THIS DECISION IN THE SESSION ITSELF BUT WE COULD MAKE IT VERY CLEAR THAT NORMALIZATION BETWEEN THE COUNTRIES IN SYRIA , GAINING THE DECISION FOR EACH COUNTRY WE STAND IN THE SAME POSITION.

WE CAN'T TOLERATE WAR CRIMINALS.

WE CANNOT SEE THE SYRIAN PEOPLE CONTINUE TO SUFFER.

GIVING THEM AWAY TO MOVE IN AND BE IMMOBILIZED.

WE SEE THE ONLY WAY FORWARD IS THE RESOLUTION.

, THE RESOLUTIONS.

HIGHLIGHTING THIS VERY CLEARLY.

A POLITICAL RESOLUTION AND THIS IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

>> UNDER THE AUSPICES OF YOURSELF AND YOUR GOVERNMENT, THERE WERE MEETINGS.

THEY BASICALLY ENDED UP TWO YEARS AGO WITH THE UNITED STATES HANDING BACK AFGHANISTAN TO THE TALIBAN.

THEY HAVEN'T MET ANY OF THEIR PROMISES, ESPECIALLY ON WOMEN AND GIRLS AND EDUCATION.

YOU MET WITH THE FUNDAMENTALIST LEADER THERE.

HOW DID YOU TRY TO EXPLAIN?

>> I THINK THAT THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS IN THIS SYSTEM.

LOOKING AT THE AGREEMENT ITSELF THE AGREEMENT IS SAFE WITH THE EXCHANGE FOR THE COMMITMENTS TO FIGHT TERRORISM AND THE COMMITMENTS TO PROVIDE A SAFE HAVEN FOR TERRORIST GROUPS AND TO PRESENT A THREAT FOR THE UNITED STATES OR ANY OTHER COUNTRY.

THAT WAS THE ENTIRETY OF THIS.

IN MY DISCRETIONS, WE MADE IT CLEAR, IF YOU WANT TO BE PART OF THE COMMITTEE THEN YOU NEED TO COOPERATE WITH US.

YOU NEED TO WORK WITH US TOGETHER IN ORDER TO HAVE YOUR COUNTRY AS A MODERN COUNTRY AS QATAR WHERE WOMEN ARE ALLOWED , THEY ARE PROUD , THEY ARE A ACTIVE PART OF THE COMMUNITY.

LEADERS, MINISTERS, AMBASSADORS, THEY ARE AT ALL LEVELS .

THEY ARE IN SCHOOLS.

THEY ARE OFTEN RECOMMENDED TO HIGHER EDUCATION.

WE AGREED WITH THEM THAT WE NEED TO AT LEAST ON SOME SMALL SCALE HAVE THINGS MOVING .

ALLOWING WOMEN TO WORK AGAIN.

DELIVERING ASSISTANCE TO OTHER FAMILIES IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> THEY PROMISED THEY WOULD GET WOMEN WORK AND CONTINUE WITH THE RIGHTS THAT THEY HAD.

OF COURSE THEY DIDN'T.

THE LEADER SEEMS TO THINK THAT HE IS THE AND NO, THE LIVING EMBODIMENT OF TRUE ISLAM .

I SEE YOU SMILING SOMEWHAT WHEN YOU TELL HIM THAT ACTUALLY ISLAM DOESN'T PREVENT WOMEN FROM WORKING AND THE OTHER ACTIVITIES THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO DO , WHAT DID THEY SAY?

DO THEY EVEN GET IT?

RA ARE THEY IN THE 21st CENTURY?

>> I AM NOT IN A POSITION TO ARGUE WITH HIM ON RELIGION BUT ISLAMIC COUNTRIES POLICIES.

WE HAVE VARIOUS THINGS .

I THINK MUSLIM SCHOLARS ROLE TO ENGAGE WITH HIM AND TALK WITH HIM.

I THINK HAVING A RESPONSIBILITY AS A MUSLIM COUNTRY, COUNTRIES IN THE REGION.

WE NEED TO BE VOCAL ON THAT AND TALK TO HIM.

WE ARE THE BEST TO EXPLAIN FOR THEM THAT THERE ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES ACTING AS A NORMAL SOCIETY.

>> I'M ALWAYS HOPEFUL.

>> COULD ASK YOU ABOUT LGBTQ?

THERE SEEMS TO BE A LOT OF IDEAS THAT RESENT WESTERN MORALS AND VALUES.

RIGHTS , WHEN IT COMES TO LGBTQ THEY SAY THAT WHY SHOULD THEY ABIDE AND I'M TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF AS WELL BY WESTERN NOTIONS OF RIGHTS?

THIS CAME UP IN THE WORLD CUP HEAVY-HANDED ATTEMPT TO GET PEOPLE NOT TO FLY THE RAINBOW FLAG ETC.

THERE'S THIS FEELING THAT IT'S A SORT OF DON'T ASK DON'T TELL SITUATION IN QATAR.

PEOPLE LIVE SCARED, LGBTQ PEOPLE LIVE SCARED IN YOUR REGION AND ALL OVER THE GULF REGION.

IT'S NOT VERY MODERN.

WHAT'S WRONG ?

YOU ALREADY SAID MUSLIM COUNTRIES SHOULD NOT BE AFRAID OF WOMEN OR ALL OF THESE OTHER THINGS AND YOU AREN'T SO WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO MAKE LGBTQ ACCEPTED GIVEN THEIR RIGHTS AND TREATED LIKE OTHERS?

>> I THINK THAT THERE'S THE ARGUMENT THAT'S NOT HAPPENING IN THE SO-CALLED SOUTH IT'S HAPPENING IN THE WEST, SOUTH, IN AMERICA AND ELSEWHERE.

IT'S EVERYWHERE.

>> BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT.

>> TO FINISH MY POINT HERE, QATAR IS A COUNTRY THAT OUR SOCIETY LIKES TO PRESERVE TRADITION AND ARE PROUD OF THEIR FAITH.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS NOT ACCEPTED IN OUR FAITH.

COMPARING THIS TO THE WOMEN IN THE COMMUNITY, THIS IS DIFFERENT.

THERE IS NOTHING IN OUR FAITH PREVENTING WOMEN.

>> BUT YET THEY SAY THERE IS .

>> THAT IS THEIR INTERPRETATION BUT FROM WHAT WE KNOW OF OUR HISTORY .

>> DO AGREE THEY'VE GOT A RIGHT ?

>> NONE OF THEM, THEIR SAFETY BEING SUBJECT AS LONG AS THEY ARE RESPECTING THEIR ROLE IN PUBLIC AREAS.

NO ONE'S SAFETY SHOULD BE IN QUESTION.

YOU DON'T SEE HATE CRIMES HAPPENING IN QATAR BECAUSE OF LGBT BECAUSE OF THIS OR THAT.

LOOK AT QATAR'S HISTORY OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS.

COMPARED TO ANY OTHER COUNTRY.

YOU CAN SEE HATE CRIMES IN EUROPE AGAINST LGBT, THOUSANDS LAST YEAR HAPPENING IN SOME I WON'T NAME THEM.

IN QATAR THERE WAS ZERO.

THESE ARE OUR LAWS AND RULES OF OUR COUNTRY.

ANYONE WHO WANTS TO COME HERE IS WELCOME AS LONG AS THEY RESPECT , AS THEY RESPECT US TO RESPECT THE RULES AND NORMS.

LOOKING IN EUROPE AND WESTERN COUNTRIES.

WE DID SOMETHING TO DISRESPECT THEIR LAWS SO WE WOULD SAY TO OUR PEOPLE YOU WOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THIS.

YOUR JOB THERE IS TO RESPECT THE COUNTRY.

THE COUNTRY YOU ARE IN AND THAT'S WHAT WE EXPECT FROM THEM.

>> PRIME MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> I CONDUCTED THE INTERVIEW SHORTLY AFTER THE RELEASE OF THE AMERICAN HOSTAGES FROM IRAN AND THE PRISONER SWAP, A DEAL THAT QATAR WAS CENTRAL TO MEDIATING .

RETURNING OUT TO UKRAINE.

HANGING OVER ALL DIPLOMATIC MANEUVERING IS THE POSSIBILITY OF A GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN IN THE UNITED STATES.

THE CONTENTIOUS ISSUE OF FUNDING FOR UKRAINE IN GENERAL.

WHAT ARE THE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS FOR KIEV?

VICTORIA NOONAN JOINS ME NOW.

THE ACTING SECRETARY OF STATE.

I WONDER WHAT YOUR VIEWS ARE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT MR. ZELENSKY GOES TO WASHINGTON.

HE'S DOING A FULL PRESS CHARM OFFENSIVE AND GOING TO HIS MAIN BACKER, PRESIDENT BIDEN.

WHAT DOES HE HAVE TO DO TODAY?

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE WITH YOU.

IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT VISIT.

FIRST HERE TO NEW YORK TO TALK TO THE WORLD ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF REMAINING WITH THIS, CONTINUING TO SUPPORT UKRAINE SO THAT MR. PUTIN AND ANY OTHER WOULD-BE AUTHORITARIANS AROUND THE WORLD WHO WANTS A PIECE OF HIS NEIGHBOR KNOWS THAT WE WILL STAND UP TO DEFEND THEM.

IN WASHINGTON WE CONTINUE TO HAVE STRONG BIPARTISAN SUPPORT IN THE CONGRESS AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IT IS IMPORTANT FOR ZELENSKY TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THE PRESIDENT ABOUT THE PERIOD AHEAD GOING TOWARD WINTER, JUST OVERNIGHT, THE RUSSIANS AGAIN ATTACKING CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURES IN UKRAINE TRYING TO BREAK THE ECONOMY AND TRYING TO BREAK THE PEOPLE .

THIS IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT FOR HIM TO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THE CONGRESS AS WELL AS TO EXPLAIN HIS THEORY OF THE CASE GOING FORWARD.

THIS IS GOING TO BE AN IMPORTANT DAY IN WASHINGTON.

>> CLEARLY HE HAS THE SUPPORT OF THE SENATE BIPARTISAN, HE MET THE SENATE LEADERS BUT NOT SO IN CONGRESS.

SPEAKER McCARTHY HAD BEEN VOICING SKEPTICISM ABOUT CONTINUING THIS AID.

WHAT HAPPENS , ARE YOU PREPARED FOR CONGRESS TO CUT BACK AID OR CUT IT OFF ALTOGETHER?

>> OF COURSE CONGRESS IS LOOKING NOT JUST AT SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE BUT ALSO LOOKING AT THE ENTIRE BUDGET FOR THE U.S. GOVERNMENT AND WHENEVER WE HAVE THESE RAMBLES AS THE SECRETARY HAS SAID, SHOULD WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN IT WILL CERTAINLY MAKE OUR JOB HARDER .

I THINK THAT THE POINT HERE IS THAT THIS IS NOT SIMPLY ABOUT UKRAINE.

IT'S A BOUT THE PLANET THAT WE WANT TO LIVE ON.

ABOUT THE RULES OF THE ROAD THAT FAVOR FREEDOM AND IF WE ALLOW THESE GLOBAL BULLIES TO DO WHATEVER THEY WANT THEN THE WHOLE UN CHARTER WOULD BE SHREDDED AND WE WOULD LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE THIS HAPPENS ALL OVER AGAIN .

THAT IS MORE EXPENSIVE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND MORE DANGEROUS.

THEY ARE MAKING THAT POINT I THINK THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WILL MAKE THAT POINT.

THE INVESTMENT WE MAKE HERE IS AN INVESTMENT IN OUR FUTURE AND IN THE PLANET'S FUTURE IN TERMS OF FREEDOM AND PROSPERITY.

WE HAVE TO BROADEN OUR LENS AND LOOK AT IT THIS WAY.

>> YOU MAKE A VERY COMPELLING CASE.

THE INVESTOR SAID THE PRESIDENT NEEDS TO KEEP PUTTING THIS IN THOSE TERMS.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, CONGRESS NEEDS TO GIVE MORE WEAPONS NOW PRECISELY TO ACHIEVE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

A MORE RAPID VICTORY.

A MORE RAPID CONCLUSION TO THIS GLOBAL THREAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

IT'S WORRYING CONGRESS IS TALKING ABOUT THE OPPOSITE.

>> WE ARE WORKING THROUGH THIS TO NOW AND THE FACT THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKY WILL TALK TO A BROAD CROSS-SECTION OF CONGRESSIONAL LEADERS IS IMPORTANT .

THE OTHER POINT HERE TO MAKE, COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD ARE WATCHING OVER THE UNITED STATES CONTINUING TO LEAD AND CONTINUING TO BE ABLE TO RALLY THEIR ALLIES AND PARTNERS THAT ARE WILLING TO DO LONG-TERM SECURITY SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE WHICH IS ANOTHER WAY TO HANDLE THIS PROBLEM.

THIS WAY WE COULD MAKE UKRAINE STRONG ENOUGH TO STAND UP ON ITS OWN FEET.

BOTH IN ITS SECURITY TERMS AND IN ITS ECONOMIC TERMS, NO MATTER WHAT RUSSIA THROWS AT IT.

TALKING ABOUT THEM NOW BUT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE WAY TO TRANSITION THIS TO A MORE SUSTAINABLE PATH.

THERE'S PLENTY OF CONCERNING CONGRESS ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES INCLUDING CHINA.

EVERYONE IS WATCHING WHAT WE DO HERE IN ORDER TO DECIDE WHAT THEY WOULD DO NEXT AND WHETHER THE U.S. WILL STAND UP FOR OUR OWN SECURITY AND FOR OUR ALLIES AND PARTNERS SECURITY AS WELL AS FOR THE RULES OF THE ROAD WHICH FAVOR FREEDOM ON THIS PLANET.

>> THIS LEADS ME TO THE IDEA OF THE GLOBAL SOUTH, WE KNOW PRESIDENT BIDEN MET WITH PRESIDENT LULA, PRESIDENT ZELENSKY MET WITH PRESIDENT LULA OF BRAZIL.

THE FEELING THE GLOBAL SOUTH IS NOT AS FULL THROATED TO UKRAINE'S DEFENSE.

I SPOKE WITH A KEY MEMBER OF THE EU.

ABOUT WHY THERE SEEMS TO BE A DIFFICULTY TO GET SOME OF THESE COUNTRIES ON-SITE AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> THERE'S A LOT OF COUNTRIES IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH THAT FEEL SOME EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE HYPOCRITICAL.

GIVEN WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO INTERRUPT THE WAR THEY ARE GIVEN WHAT EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE DONE AS PART OF THEIR ENTERPRISES SUPPORTING THESE COUPS WHAT I SAY TO THEM COMING FROM IRELAND, A COUNTRY THAT'S NEVER HAD ANY COLONIES OR COUNTRY THAT HAD TO FIGHT FOR ITS OWN INDEPENDENCE, DON'T BLAME THE UKRAINIANS FOR WHAT OTHERS MAY HAVE DONE TO THEM IN THE PAST.

>> IF IT'S COMPLICATED, DO YOU THINK THIS HAS A LINGERING EFFECTS.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S ABOUT THAT , I THINK IT'S ABOUT MANY OF OUR GLOBAL PARTNERS OUTSIDE OF EUROPE HAVE CHALLENGES OF THEIR OWN.

THEY WANT TO SEE US AND OTHER DEMOCRACIES.

THEY WANT TO SEE THE UN SYSTEM DELIVER FOR THEM.

SOME OF THEIR ISSUES HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN MADE WORSE BY RUSSIA'S BRUTAL AGGRESSION WITHIN UKRAINE SO THE FOOD INSECURITY, ENERGY AND SECURITY, THE FACT THAT THEY NEED INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT.

THEY NEED THE UN SYSTEM TO DELIVER FOR THEM.

THIS WAS THE POINT PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS TRYING TO MAKE IN HIS PRESENTATION WHICH IS THAT THE U.S. IS NOT JUST INVESTING IN UKRAINE'S SECURITY BUT ALSO INVESTING IN NEW INFRASTRUCTURE IDEAS.

WE HAVE BEEN THE LEADING DONOR OF FEUD SECURITY AND TRYING TO ADDRESS SOME OF THESE PROBLEMS THAT HAVE TRICKLED DOWN.

NONE OF US COULD WORK TOGETHER IN COLLECTIVE ACTION TO SOLVE THE WORLD'S PROBLEMS THAT ARE CENTRAL IN BRAZIL AND IN SOUTH AFRICA AND IN INDONESIA , AROUND THE WORLD IF WE ALLOW THE UN CHARTER TO BE COMPLETELY SHREDDED BY A PERMANENT MEMBER LIKE RUSSIA.

FOR RUSSIA TO BLOCK OTHER THINGS THAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO SO EVERYTHING IS LINKED .

WE NEED TO ADDRESS ALL OF THESE GLOBAL PROBLEMS TOGETHER AND WE NEED TO DO THIS IN SUCH A WAY THAT FAVORS PROSPERITY AND FAVORS OPENNESS.

THAT SUPPORTS THE RULES OF THE ROAD SO THAT NEIGHBORS AREN'T ATTACKING EACH OTHER.

WE NEED TO GET ON AND DO THIS BUSINESS AND TO DO THIS WE HAVE TO SAY NO TO RUSSIA'S BRUTAL AGGRESSION AND NO TO IT RIPPING UP THE CHARTER.

>> QUICKLY FOCUSING ON CLIMATE CHANGE OBVIOUSLY.

SOMEWHAT OVERSHADOWED BY THE WAR IN UKRAINE AND BY ALL THE ATTENTION IT GETS I SPOKE TO THE FORMER VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE IN THE PROGRAM.

SITUATION IS GETTING WORSE AS WE HAD SEEN WITH THE WEATHER AND THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

HE'S TALKED ABOUT HOW THERE NEEDS TO BE A STRONGER GLOBAL CONVENING TO MITIGATE IT.

LET'S PLAY WHAT HE SAID.

>> LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING AROUND THE WORLD.

EVERY NIGHT ON THE NEWS IS A MAJOR HIKE THROUGH THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS.

LOOKING AT THE CATASTROPHE THAT OLIVIA MADE.

50 TIMES MORE LIKELY BY THE CLIMATE CRISIS AND THE SAME DAY THERE WERE OTHER CATASTROPHES RELATED TO THE CLIMATE CRISIS ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

PEOPLE ARE WAKING UP.

THE FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES HAD USED THEIR WEALTH AND INFLUENCE AND POLITICAL CONNECTIONS TO SLOW THINGS DOWN.

THEY FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL AGAINST ANYTHING THAT WOULD REDUCE THE BURNING OF OIL AND GAS AND COAL.

THEY ARE MUCH BETTER AT CAPTURING POLITICIANS THAN THEY YOU COULD SOMETIMES TELL WHEN THEY'VE CAPTURED ONE.

>> DO YOU WORRY THAT AS MUCH AS IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO DEFEND UKRAINE THAT SOME OF THE ENERGY WOULD BE GOING OUT OF THE ROOM ON CLIMATE?

>> I HAVE TO SAY I SAY THAT I SEE THE OPPOSITE WHEN I TRAVEL AROUND THE WORLD AND THE SECRETARY AND PRESIDENT TRAVEL AROUND THE WORLD WHERE WE HAVE COUNTRIES ON EVERY COUNTRY CONTINENT WHERE THEY MAKE THEIR OWN GREEN TRANSITION.

AIDED AND SUPPORTED BY US AND OUR COMPANIES UNDERSTANDING WHERE THEY HAVE TO GET THEMSELVES TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY COULD OFF OF FOSSIL FUELS AND ONTO SOLAR AND WIND.

I THINK THE FACT THAT RUSSIA USED ENERGY FOSSIL FUELS AS A WEAPON.

THIS HAS ACCELERATED PEOPLE'S UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS NOT ONLY A CLIMATE VULNERABILITY BUT A NATIONAL SECURITY VULNERABILITY.

NOW THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE TO MAKE DIFFICULT CHOICES, CHINA BEING ONE OF THEM.

CHINESE, WE ARE TRYING TO ENCOURAGE THEM TO DO MORE TO CONTRIBUTE ON THE CLAIMANT'S SIDE.

WE HAVE NEW SOLUTIONS FOR SOME OF THE OTHER BIG EMITTERS LIKE INDIA WHERE WE WORK TOGETHER ON NEW SOLAR AND WIND SOLUTIONS.

THIS IS A DIFFICULT THING AND IF YOU LOOK AT EUROPE ALONE, PUTIN'S WAR FORCED THEM TO ACCELERATE THEIR OWN TRANSITION, NOT ONLY AWAY FROM RUSSIAN OIL BUT TO CLEANER AND GREENER SOLUTIONS.

UKRAINE ITSELF WANTS TO BE PART OF THIS TRANSITION AND PART OF THE SOLUTION.

WE ARE WORKING THESE THINGS BUT YOU ARE NOT WRONG IT'S BEEN A BIBLICAL SEASON.

>> INDEED.

I SAW ANOTHER ISSUE TALKING ABOUT BIBLICAL.

PRESIDENT BIDEN MET WITH THE PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL OFF THE FIRST TIME.

SINCE HE CAME BACK TO POWER.

BETWEEN ISRAEL AND SAUDI ARABIA SO THE PRIME MINISTER WHO I SPOKE WITH SAID THAT FOR THEM AND FOR THE REGION THE ONLY ISSUE IS THE ISSUE OF PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD.

URGING THIS TO BE FRONT AND CENTER IF ANY SUCH NORMALIZATION WERE TO TAKE PLACE.

WHERE IS THE ADMINISTRATION ON THIS.

WE HEAR NOTHING ABOUT THESE TWO STATES SOLUTIONS AND LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN ISRAEL WITH THE ASSAULT ON DEMOCRACY THERE.

NO ATTENTION BEING PAID TO THE RIGHTS OF THE PALESTINIANS OF STATEHOOD.

>> I SAY THAT WE COMPLETELY AGREE.

I HAD A CHANCE TO HAVE THE SAME CONVERSATION TODAY WITH HIS MAJESTY.

AS WE WORK ON THIS VERY DIFFICULT BUT POTENTIALLY TRANSFORMATIVE AGREEMENT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND SAUDI ARABIA THAT THERE HAS TO BE IMPROVEMENT IN THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR THE PALESTINIANS AS PART OF THIS SO WE HAVE TO STRENGTHEN AGAIN ALL OF THE CONDITIONS THAT ARE NECESSARY FOR THE TWO STATES LIVING SIDE BY SIDE.

SOME OF THIS HAS BEEN GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, IN RECENT MONTHS AND YEARS.

WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT THERE'S A STRONG PIECE OF THIS THAT WOULD ALLOW US TO GET BACK TO THOSE CONVERSATIONS ON STATE WHICH HAS BEEN DIFFICULT ON BOTH SIDES.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> DOES GOOGLE HAVE TOO MUCH POWER?

>>> THE GOVERNMENT THINKS SO.

A HIGH-STAKES LEGAL BATTLE IS TAKING PLACE RIGHT NOW BETWEEN THE U.S. AND THE TECH GIANT.

COLUMBIA LAW PROFESSOR TIM WU MAKES THIS ALL DOWN WITH US NOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

LAST WEEK THIS WAS A PRETTY BIG CASE THAT KICKED OFF THE UNITED STATES VERSUS GOOGLE.

ANTITRUST ISSUES SOMETHING YOU'RE AN EXPERT ON.

COULD YOU BREAK THIS DOWN FOR THE AUDIENCE, WHAT'S AT THE CENTER OF THIS CASE?

>> THE CENTER OF THIS CASE , A CASE AGAINST GOOGLE.

THE FIRST BIG INTEREST CASE OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS FROM A NOVELIZATION CLAIMS.

AT THE CORE IS THE ARGUMENT THAT GOOGLE HAS BEEN MAINTAINING ITS MONOPOLY OVER A GENERAL SEARCH OF USING A NUMBER OF AGREEMENTS AND TECHNIQUES.

>> WHAT ARE THOSE AGREEMENTS OR TECHNIQUES THAT THEY HAD BEEN DOING THAT SCREAM ANTITRUST?

>> THE CORE OF THE CASE WOULD REVOLVE AROUND THE IDEA THAT GOOGLE HAS BEEN SPENDING ITS MONEY TO ESCAPE COMPETITION.

CLEARLY THROUGH AN AGREEMENT TO SPEND $10 BILLION WITH APPLE TO GET THEM $10 BILLION OR MORE PER YEAR.

THIS IS IN ORDER TO MAKE GOOGLE ALLEGING TO KEEP APPLE OUT OF THE SEARCH.

SO WITHOUT THESE PAYOUTS THERE'S OTHER PAYOUTS LIKE THE SAMSUNG PAYOUTS .

OTHER ANDROID PHONE COMPANIES.

NOW THESE PAYOFFS GOOGLE FACES SEVERELY MORE COMPETITION AND THEY'VE BEEN BUYING THEIR WAY OUT OF COMPETITION.

>> OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER ON THE LAST ANTITRUST CASE AGAINST MICROSOFT.

WE HAD INTERNET EXPLORER THAT WAS BUNDLED INTO THE WINDOWS OPERATING SYSTEM WHICH SEEMED TO BE THIS SORT OF UNFAIR PRACTICE.

THIS ON THE OTHER HAND, WHAT IS THE CRIME AND HAVING WHAT GOOGLE WOULD CALL PARTNERSHIPS WITH COMPANIES LIKE APPLE AND SAYING, YOU KNOW WHAT I'M GETTING MONEY , THIS IS JUST A DEAL BETWEEN THESE TWO COMPANIES?

>> IN SOME CASES IT'S A LITTLE LIKE MICROSOFT HE WAS WORRIED ABOUT LOSING A MONOPOLY OVER THE OPERATING SYSTEMS.

USING THE STICK AND THREATENED ANYONE WHO DEALT WITH THE LANDSCAPE NAVIGATOR.

ALL THE INTERMEDIARIES WITH THE LOSS OF ITS OPERATING SYSTEM.

GOOGLE HAS BEEN USING THE CARROT.

THE ARGUMENT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT MAKES IS THAT THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT THE CUP EDITION.

THEY WERE WORRIED ABOUT PARTICULARLY, ANOTHER SEARCH ENGINE SHOWING UP ON MOBILE .

BECOMING A HEAVILY USED SEARCH ENGINE.

WORRIED ABOUT APPLE GOING INTO SEARCH ENGINE.

THEY DECIDED THEY WOULD SPEND MONEY TO AVOID THAT.

I THINK OF THE ANTITRUST LAWS CITING YOU HAVE TO STAND YOUR GROUND AND FIGHT, PARTICULARLY IF YOU'RE A MONOPOLIST THERE'S DIFFERENT RULES FOR THE DOMINANT COUNTRIES COMPARED TO LOCAL BAKERIES OR SOMETHING THAT COULD MAKE A DEAL WITH THE LOCAL CROISSANT MAKER OR THE LOCAL BREADMAKER.

MICROSOFT AND GOOGLE ARE IN A DIFFERENT CATEGORY OF COMPANY AND ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ALLOWED TO SPEND MONEY TO GET AWAY FROM COMPETITION.

>> SO ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE WILL WONDER IS IS THIS BAD FOR CONSUMERS?

AM I USING AN INFERIOR PRODUCT ARE BEING FORCED TO DO SOMETHING THAT OTHERWISE I WOULD NOT WANT TO DO?

>> THE DO NOT DOUBT THAT THEY CAME TO MARKET WITH A GREAT PRODUCT THAT PEOPLE HAPPEN TO LOVE BUT SPENDING MONEY TO STAY THERE HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM.

IMAGINE THERE WAS AN APPLE SEARCH FOR EXAMPLE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE APPLE PHONES, A LOT OF STUFF.

MAYBE APPLE SEARCH COULD BE PRIVACY PROTECTED.

PEOPLE LIKE GOOGLE BUT THEY DON'T LIKE THE FACT THAT THEY SPY ON YOU ALL THE TIME SO WHY ISN'T THERE MORE PRIVACY PROTECTION ALTERNATIVES?

THAT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS SAYING.

>> ONE OF THE DEFENSES GOOGLE HAS MADE FOR QUITE SOME TIME , WITH COMPETITION THERE IS COMPETITION A CLICK AWAY.

IT DOESN'T COST THE CONSUMER TO CHANGE THE DEFAULT SEARCH IF THAT'S WHAT THEY WOULD WANT TO DO OR USE A BROWSER TO GOES GO TO OTHER SERVERS.

WE COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE ANTICOMPETITIVE BECAUSE WE AREN'T CONSTRAINING THE ABILITY OF CONSUMERS TO USE COMPETITIVE PRODUCTS.

>> THIS IS A GOOD POINT.

IN FACT ONE THAT GOOGLE HAS BEEN USING AS THE OFFENSE OF THIS TRIAL.

THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S RESPONSE HAS BEEN PUT ON THE STAND A NUMBER OF BEHAVIORAL ECONOMISTS MAKING THE POINT THAT GOOGLE UNDERSTOOD HOW IMPORTANT THE DEFAULT WAS.

WHEN A PRODUCT IS SHIPPED WITH A SEARCH ENGINE IT NEVER CHANGES WHETHER IT'S GOOD OR BAD MAYBE THEY'D LIKE SOMETHING MORE PRIVACY PROTECTED.

THEY DIDN'T REALLY BOTHER TO CHANGE IT.

GOOGLE KNEW THIS AND THEY WERE BATTLING FOR DEFAULTS.

IF A SEARCH WAS ONE CLICK AWAY WHY WOULD THEY SPEND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE HAVE THIS INSTALLED AS THE DEFAULT?

MAKING SURE THAT OTHER COMPANIES DIDN'T GO TO THE MARKET?

THAT IS THE RESPONSE .

I WON'T SAY THAT IT HAS NO APPEAL BUT THE HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY SUGGESTS FRANKLY WHEN WE ARE LOCKED INTO SOMETHING WE DON'T WANT TO SWITCH.

>> THERE IS A QUESTION THAT THE JUDGE WILL HAVE TO CONSIDER OF INTENT , DID THEY KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

I KNOW THIS HAS ONLY BEEN IN THE FIRST WEEK BUT A TRIAL THAT COULD TAKE MONTHS.

ARE THERE ANY SMOKING GUNS, EMAILS OR IS THERE SOMETHING WITHIN GOOGLE WHICH WOULD SHOW THAT THEY KNEW THAT THIS IS WHAT THEY WERE CARRYING OUT?

>> I THINK THAT'S WHAT HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE ABOUT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S PRESENTATION.

GOOGLE HAS A GREAT IMAGE AND AT THE FROM THE COMPANY.

A NICE COLORFUL LOGO.

IT HAS AN INSPIRING STORY, A GARAGE STARTUP .

BUT WHAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S CASES SHOWING IS THERE IS A DIFFERENT GOOGLE THAT'S CALCULATING, A LOT OF EMAILS WHICH RECOGNIZE THEY HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT APPLE NATURALLY.

WORRIED THAT THEY WANT TO SPEND THIS MONEY TO TRY TO MAKE SURE THEY DON'T FACE SERIOUS COMPETITIVE FORCES SO I THINK WHAT YOU WOULD SEE AND WOULD EMERGE FROM THIS TRIAL IS A MUCH MORE CALCULATING GOOGLE AS GOOGLE KNOWS WHAT IT'S DOING IT WHAT IT WANTS TO DO.

IT'S BEEN IN SOME WAYS PLANNING ON MAINTAINING DOMINANCE ALL ALONG.

>> I WONDER IF THIS CASE WOULD BE DIFFERENT IF IT WAS , SAY STARTING A YEAR AGO.

WHY I SAY THIS IS BEFORE THE RISE OF THESE OPEN AI OR LARGE LANGUAGE MODELS USING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

GOOGLE HAS THEIR OWN.

MICROSOFT PARTNERING WITH THE BIG ONE NAMED OPEN AI.

I WONDER IF THIS IS NOT A SIGNIFICANT ENOUGH THREAT FOR THE EXISTING SEARCH BUSINESS WHERE GOOGLE COULD SAY LOOK, LOOK AT ALL THESE PEOPLE USING THESE AI TOOLS.

THEY AREN'T COMING TO GOOGLE OR WE ARE TRYING TO REMAIN COMPETITIVE, WE ARE THE UNDERDOG ALMOST HERE.

>> I THINK THAT THIS IS AN IMPORTANT POINT.

AI HAS BECOME SIGNIFICANT.

IT SEEMS LIKE SOMETHING, NO ONE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT IS ON THE HORIZON.

IN MY VIEW IT MAKES THE CASE MORE IMPORTANT.

WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY HERE FOR TECHNOLOGICAL SUCCESSION AND IF THERE'S ANYTHING HISTORY SUGGESTS IS THAT COMPANIES TRY TO PREVENT THE NEXT THING FROM COMING ALONG AND REPLACING THEM.

THERE IS SOME CHANCE THIS WILL HAPPEN NATURALLY.

I THINK WE ARE IN A BETTER WORLD WHERE GOOGLE IS FORCED TO FIGHT FAIR.

THE STRATEGY OF USING DEFAULTS , SPENDING TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO MAKE SURE YOUR PRODUCT IS IN FRONT OF EVERYONE AND NOT OTHER PEOPLE'S, THIS IS MORE IMPORTANT.

IMPORTANT SCRUTINY WITH MERGERS.

YOU DON'T WANT GOOGLE TO BUY OUT ITS GREATEST AND MOST DANGEROUS COMPETITORS .

NOW WOULD BE THE TIME IN FACT FOR ENHANCED SCRUTINY.

ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS ABOUT MICROSOFT , THE TRIAL IN THIS HAPPENED AT A TIME WHEN MICROSOFT WAS FACING THE INCREDIBLE COMPETITIVE PRESSURE.

IT CREATED A LOT OF ROOM FOR COMPANIES LIKE GOOGLE TO EMERGE.

MICROSOFT WAS HANDCUFFED , THEY WERE UNDER CONSENT TO CREATE AND HAD BEEN BEATEN OUT BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FOR FIVE YEARS.

I THINK IN THESE MOMENTS OF TECHNOLOGICAL SUCCESSION THAT IT'S IMPORTANT THAT COMPANIES FEEL PRESSURE FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO FIGHT FAIRLY.

THAT'S WHY I THINK THAT THE TIMING ACTUALLY OF THE AI MAKES THIS MORE IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE A CASE LIKE THIS NOW.

>> WHAT DOES THE GOVERNMENT HAVE TO PROVE TO THE JUDGE?

THIS IS A BENCH TRIAL, THERE'S NOT A JURY HERE'S WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY?

THIS IS THE CASE OPEN AND SHUT.

WHAT DOES THE JUDGE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND?

>> THEY HAVE TO UNDERSTAND TWO THINGS.

FIRST THAT GOOGLE HAD THE MONOPOLY OVER THE GENERAL SEARCH WHICH I THINK THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO PROVE.

SECOND, TO PROVE THAT GOOGLE USED ITS MONOPOLY ITS POSITION.

USED ITS ECONOMIC POWER TO MAINTAIN A POSITION.

THAT IS THE MORE CHALLENGING QUESTION.

THERE IS A LARGE DECLARATION AS TO WHAT THIS MEANS TO EFFECTIVELY FIGHT UNFAIR VERSUS FIGHT FAIR.

AS HE SAID GOOGLE WOULD SAY WE MADE A GOOD PRODUCT AND PEOPLE LIKED IT.

THE CORE OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT'S CASE WOULD BE YOU HAD A MONOPOLY AND MAINTAIN YOUR MONOPOLY BY MAKING DEALS TO KEEP COMPETITORS OUT.

I THINK THE STRONGEST ARGUMENT IN THIS SORT OF ON THE STREET ARGUMENT IS THE IDEA THAT THEY PAID APPLE IN PARTICULAR TO STAY OUT AND NOT DEVELOP ITSELF THE SEARCH .

THEY WERE HANDLING SEARCH TRAFFIC AND GOOGLE SAID LISTEN IF YOU WANT THIS MONEY THEN YOU NEED TO STAY OUT SO I THINK THAT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE FAIR COMPETITION TO ME.

WHAT HAVE THEY SAID SO FAR.

WHAT HAVE THEY HAD TO SAY?

>> STRAIGHTFORWARD, PEOPLE LIKE OUR PRODUCT BECAUSE WE HAVE A BETTER PRODUCT GIVEN THE CHOICE OVER AND OVER WE HAVE SEEN THAT PEOPLE CHOOSE GOOGLE OVER BEING OR OTHERS.

IT'S OUR SO-CALLED POWER THAT'S RELATIVE.

I THINK THAT'S THE CORE OF THE ARGUMENT.

>> WHAT ARE THE REMEDIES THAT THE JUDGE COULD HAND DOWN?

LET'S SAY THE GOVERNMENT MAKES ITS CASE APPROVING THESE TWO THINGS WHAT COULD THE JUDGE, WHAT KIND OF POWER DOES THIS JUDGE HAVE?

>> THE JUDGE HAS THE POWER AND EQUITY, TRADITIONALLY, TO GO AS FAR AS TO BREAK GOOGLE OUT .

OR CAUSE IT TO DIVEST PARTS OF GOOGLE.

IT COULD BE ASKED TO DO BEST TO THE CHROME BROWSER, SELLING ITS OPERATING SYSTEM, STRONG REMEDIES, A MINI BREAK UP.

AT A LESSER DEGREE AND INTENSITY THEY COULD ASK THAT GOOGLE STOPPED DOING DEALS LIKE THIS.

PUTTING IT IN SOME WAYS UNDER PAROLE.

TRADITIONALLY OR AT LEAST WITH OTHER CASES, THE JUSTICE OR THE JUDGES HAVE ORDERED COMPANIES TO REMAIN OUT OF CERTAIN BUSINESSES BUT IT WOULD BE WEIRD TO ORDER GOOGLE TO STAY OUT OF AI SEARCH OR SOMETHING BUT THINGS LIKE THAT HAD BEEN DONE.

AT&T WAS ORDERED TO REMAIN OUT OF COMPUTING IN THE 1950s WHICH HAD AN ENORMOUS CONSEQUENCES FOR COMPUTING OBVIOUSLY.

THERE'S A LARGE RANGE.

A COURT OF EQUITY.

IF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WINS I THINK THAT THIS WOULD BE A INTERESTING AND HARD QUESTION TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE WALL RIGHT REMEDY IS.

>> TALKING ABOUT ANTITRUST CASES GOING TO THE AT&T DAYS IN THE 80s, WHAT WAS THE CONSEQUENCE OF BREAKING UP A BIG COMPANY LIKE THIS?

WHAT WERE THINGS THAT THE CONSUMERS FELT?

THE THINGS THAT BUSINESSES FELT, HOW DID THE ECOSYSTEM OR THE LANDSCAPE CHANGE IF GOOGLE IS TO BE BROKEN UP OR MICROSOFT OR ANYBODY ELSE IN THE TECH SPACE , WHAT DO WE KNOW FROM HISTORY THAT HAPPENS?

>> THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION.

WE HAD BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD BEFORE.

FRANKLY BEGINNING IN THE 50s.

THE INITIAL ANTITRUST CASES AGAINST IBM AT& T, A COMPANY CALLED RCA.

IN THE 70s AND 80s IBM, AT&T AGAIN LEADING TO THAT AT&T BREAKUP, THE 90s, WITH MICROSOFT.

WE ARE IN A CURRENT GENERATION NOT JUST GOOGLE BUT A SIGNIFICANT CASE AGAINST FACEBOOK, SEEKING A BREAKUP.

ANOTHER GOOGLE ADVERTISING CASE.

WITH A REPEAT OF SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED EVERY 20 OR 30 YEARS OR SO.

I WOULD SAY LOOKING AT HISTORY THE SHORT TERM CONSEQUENCE HAS BEEN CHAOS AS WELL AS UNCERTAINTY.

THE LONG TERM CONSEQUENCE IS ALMOST ALWAYS A BIG JUMP TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT AND THE BIRTH OF COMPANIES AND INDUSTRIES.

IT STIRS THE POT.

MONOPOLIES HAVE POSITIVE FEATURES.

THEY ARE VERY FAMILIAR.

OFTEN THEY HAVE STRONG RESEARCH LABORATORIES BUT THEY HAVE A TENDENCY UNSURPRISINGLY TOWARD STAGNATION WHERE THE USUALLY HAVE EXISTING BUSINESS MODELS THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO CANNIBALIZE.

YOU TAKE GOOGLE RIGHT NOW, ONE OF ITS CHALLENGES WITH AI IS THAT THIS CHALLENGE IS ITS ADVERTISING MODEL AT THE CORE OF GOOGLE.

SOMETHING EMERGING THAT SOMEHOW ISN'T QUITE THE MODEL FOR THEM.

IT'S VERY DANGEROUS.

AT&T WAS ALWAYS CONCERNED ABOUT THE RISE OF AN INTERNET OR WHAT LATER WOULD BECOME KNOWN AS THE INTERNET THAT THEY COULDN'T CONTROL.

BUSINESSES THAT WERE ON TOP OF THE PHONE LINES.

AT&T WANTED EVERYTHING TO BE OPERATED BY AT&T.

THAT WAS THEIR WAY OF DOING BUSINESS.

IF YOU'RE OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER AT& T IN ITS GLORY DAYS IT CONTROLLED EVERYTHING.

THE PHONES WERE SOLD BY AT&T, WESTERN ELECTRIC.

THE LONG-DISTANCE SERVICES WERE AT&T.

LOCAL SERVICE.

EVERYTHING HAD TO BE AT&T.

BUSINESS SERVICES.

LONG STORY SHORT, THIS MAKES A LOT OF ROOM FOR OTHER COMPANIES.

THEY'VE JUMPSTARTED SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT COMPUTER REVOLUTIONS.

ANTITRUST BREAKUPS AND ANTITRUST ATTACKS INCLUDING SOFTWARE INDUSTRIES, THE INTERNET INDUSTRIES.

THE AMERICAN ECONOMY WOULD LOOK THE WAY THAT IT DOES WITHOUT SOME OF THE ANTITRUST CASES WE HAVE HAD.

IT'S BEEN OBVIOUSLY TOO EARLY TO SAY WHETHER THE CURRENT ATTACK ON BIG TECH WOULD HAVE SIMILAR EFFECTS BUT IF HISTORY IS ANY GUIDE RELAXING THE GRIP OF THE MONOPOLIST USUALLY IS A GOOD DIRECTION.

>> GIVEN THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT LARGE TECH COMPANIES ARE ABLE TO SPEND LOBBYING THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH CERTAINLY , IT HAS BEEN REALLY DIFFICULT TO TRY TO GET WHAT MIGHT THE COMMONSENSE MEASURES ABOUT PRIVACY OR ANTITRUST FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD.

EVEN WHEN THERE'S SOME BIPARTISAN AGREEMENT ON THIS.

IS THERE ACTUAL POSSIBILITIES HERE ABOUT WHAT THE JUDGE COULD DECIDE ON GOOGLE?

WHAT THEY COULD DO WHAT CONGRESS DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO?

I GUESS I WOULD SAY YES AND NO.

I AGREE WITH YOUR SENTIMENTS.

PASSING WHAT SEEMED LIKE OBVIOUS CASES OF LEGISLATION.

WHO WOULD THINK THAT CONGRESS, ANYONE IN CONGRESS WOULD BE OPPOSED TO BETTER PRIVACY?

WE COULDN'T GET THIS DONE UNTIL EARLIER THIS YEAR.

WE JUST COULD NOT GET THINGS THROUGH CONGRESS.

SO YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THAT.

IN THE UNITED STATES WE HAVE COURTS AS WELL AS CONGRESS, A JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, INDEPENDENT PROSECUTION.

I THINK THIS IS ENDING UP BEING IMPORTANT.

THE INFLUENCE OF LARGE COMPANIES OVER LEGISLATION IS WELL-DOCUMENTED AND IT MAKES CERTAIN THINGS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE.

I WOULD SAY THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN THE COURTS ARE LESS .

YOU COULD HIRE GOOD LAWYERS.

YOU COULD TRY TO INFLUENCE THEM BUT THERE'S THIS CERTAIN LEVEL OF INDEPENDENCE.

THEY'VE ALWAYS HAD THIS LEVEL OF INDEPENDENCE.

THEY HAD A TRADITION OF TAKING AT THE ANTITRUST DIVISION AND JUSTICE AND I THINK THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> A PLEASURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> FINALLY, JOIN US TOMORROW WHEN OUR REP OF THE BUSY WEEK OF DIPLOMACY WITH THE PRIME MINISTER OF MALAYSIA.

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