KATIE: I'’M KATIE LANNAN, IN FOR ADAM REILLY.

TONIGHT ON TALKING POLITICS.

A LOOK AT ALL OF THE DRAMA AND DYSFUNCTION COMING FROM THE STATE'’S CANNABIS CONTROL COMMISSION AND WHY A GROUP OF STATE LAWMAKERS ARE PUSHING FOR ACCOUNTABILITY.

ONE OF THEM JOINS ME AHEAD.

BUT FIRST.

IT'’S BEEN NEARLY 5 DECADES SINCE A FEDERAL JUDGE ORDERED BOSTON TO DESEGREGATE ITS PUBLIC SCHOOLS THROUGH A SYSTEM OF BUSING.

THE DECISION, WHICH CAME 20 YEARS AFTER SEGREGATION WAS OUTLAWED NATIONWIDE, WAS A LONG AND HARD-FOUGHT WIN FOR BLACK PARENTS AND CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS IN THE CITY.

BUT IT WOULD BE FOLLOWED BY TWO YEARS OF HATE, VIOLENCE, UNREST, AND SCENES LIKE THESE OF WHITE MOBS TERRORIZING YOUNG BLACK CHILDREN, JUST TRYING TO GET TO SCHOOL.

NOW, IN THE RUN-UP TO THE 50TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE RULING, A GROUP OF EDUCATORS AND COMMUNITY LEADERS ARE HOLDING A SERIES OF FORUMS TO EXAMINE AND EDUCATE THE CITY ABOUT THE BUSING CRISIS.

IT'’S CALLED THE BOSTON DESEGREGATION AND BUSING INITIATIVE.

TWO OF ITS MEMBERS JOIN ME NOW.

IRA JACKSON WAS CHIEF OF STAFF TO THE MAYOR OF BOSTON DURING THE BUSING CRISIS, KEVIN WHITE.

AND MILLY ARBAJE-THOMAS IS THE CEO OF METCO, A VOLUNTARY SCHOOL INTEGRATION PROGRAM STILL OPERATING TODAY.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME TODAY TO TALK ABOUT THIS PROJECT.

WHAT IS THE GOAL, WHAT ARE YOU ARE THE PEOPLE YOU ARE WORKING WITH HOPING TO SEE HAPPEN BY REVISITING THE EVENTS OF 50 YEARS AGO?

IRA: ABOUT 40 OF US GATHER TOGETHER A YEAR AGO UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF -- FROM M.I.T..

ALMOST ALL OF US WERE PARTICIPANTS IN BUSING, EITHER ON THE BUSES OR INVOLVED IN ADVOCACY.

AND WE FEEL STRONGLY THAT THIS UGLY AND TRAUMATIC EVENT AND EXPERIENCE IN BOSTON NEEDS TO BE REMEMBERED.

WE NEED TO EDUCATE ONE ANOTHER ABOUT IT.

THERE IS STILL SOME HEALING THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, AND WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH GREATER URGENCY TO IMPROVE QUALITY EDUCATION, WHICH IS WHAT THE BLACK PARENTS WANTED 49 YEARS AGO.

KATIE: WHAT DO YOU THINK THE LESSONS ARE THAT NEED TO BE LEARNED?

MILLY: I WAS ADDED RECENTLY AS THE PERSON IN THE METCO PROGRAM.

IT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO TELL THE ENTIRE STORY, THIS HAPPENED IN 1974, BUT METCO WAS ALREADY IN EXISTENCE FOR EIGHT YEARS.

WHAT HAPPENED LEADING UP TO THIS?

HOW DO WE UPLIFT THE VOICES OF THE PARENTS TRYING TO ADVOCATE FOR A BETTER EDUCATION PROGRAM?

THE METCO PROGRAM WAS A RESULT OF THAT ADVOCACY, BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF WORK AFTER THAT TO ADDRESS THE ENTIRE EDUCATIONAL CRISIS IN OUR CITY.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT THIS HISTORY BECAUSE WE NEED TO REFLECT NOW AND SEE WHAT WERE THE LESSONS LEARNED, AND THERE ARE SOME THINGS WE CAN STILL DO.

WITHIN ANY EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM THERE STILL IS BUT THIS IS ON THE SHOULDERS OF PEOPLE THAT FOUGHT HARD TO GET US WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

WE OWE IT TO THEM TO CONTINUE THE FIGHT.

IRA: I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF KNOWING ALAN JACKSON AND RUTH BATSON, TWO OF THE HEROINES OF THE STORY, WHO WORKED FOR 15 OR 20 YEARS TIRELESSLY TO BRING ABOUT THE DESEGREGATION AND ADVOCATE FOR QUALITY EDUCATION.

AND IT SHOULD BE CELEBRATED THEIR NAMES AND PROFILE SHOULD BE ELEVATED.

KATIE: DO YOU FIND THE STUDENTS WHO ARE PARTICIPATING IN METCO, DO THEY KNOW THE CITY HISTORY?

MILLY: NO IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS KNOWN.

I BUILT AN EXHIBIT ABOUT OUR HISTORY IN NUBIAN SQUARE SO WE HOST NEW OR -- ORIENTATION THERE, EVERYONE SAYS THEY DO NOT KNOW THIS HISTORICAL ACCOUNT.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE SHARE IN COMMON, IS EXACTLY RUTH BATSON, SHE WAS OUR MOTHER, SHE STARTED THE METCO PROGRAM.

SHE WAS MEETING IN 1963, SHE CALLED FOR A SCHOOL COMMITTEE MEETING WITH BOSTON TO DEMAND THEY ADMIT THERE IS SEGREGATION HAPPENING IN BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

SHE HAD A LIST OF DEMANDS SHE PUT FORTH THAT SHE WANTED TO HAPPEN, SIMPLE DEMANDS, THINGS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TODAY, DIVERSIFYING THE CURRICULUM, PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT, THINGS WE ARE ASPIRING TO DO TODAY.

IT WAS THESE MEETINGS THAT INSPIRED THE MOVEMENTS, BY THIS ONE WOMAN WHO ASKED, CAN MY CHILDREN HAVE THE SAME EDUCATION AS THE SCHOOL OF THE STREET IN BOSTON?

IRA: AND THE BOSTON SCHOOL COMMITTEE RIDICULED HER AND DID NOT RESPOND AFFIRMATIVELY TO ANY OF THOSE 14 VERY REASONABLE DEMANDS.

WHICH IS WHY THE JUDGE FOUND THEM CONDUCTING AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND ILLEGAL DUAL SYSTEM.

THAT IS WHAT RESULTED IN BUSING.

BUSING ITSELF WAS PRETTY UGLY BECAUSE IT PITTED THE TWO POOREST COMMUNITIES WITH ONE ANOTHER.

AT THE END OF THE DAY BLACK STUDENTS WERE NOT NECESSARILY GETTING THE BETTER DEAL.

KATIE: THERE IS THE GOAL AND HOW IT PLAYED OUT.

IRA: TODAY WE HAVE HAVE AS MANY KIDS IN THE BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

AND THE BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS, I READ IN THE GLOBE THIS WEEK, THE CHAIR OF THE BOSTON SCHOOL COMMITTEE SAYS BOSTON SCHOOLS ARE FAILING.

KATIE: WOW.

IRA: WE SPEND $31,000 PER PUPIL IN BOSTON.

WE HAVE WONDERFUL LEADERSHIP IN THE SUPERINTENDENT BUT 49 YEARS LATER, THE OF -- THE IMPROVEMENT HAS NOT COME ABOUT FOR WHITE OR BLACK KIDS.

KATIE: WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

HE SAID THIS IS ABOUT LOOKING FORWARD.

IRA: MILLY HAS HER THOUGHTS AND I HAVE MINE.

WE WANT TO ENGAGE THE COMMUNITY NEXT WEEK WILL BE CELEBRATING THE HISTORY OF BLACK COMMUNITY ACTIVISM.

GOING FORWARD, MY OPINION IS WE NEED A METROPOLITAN SOLUTION, EVEN BEYOND METCO, OR AN EXPANDED METCO THAT WORKS BOTH WAYS.

WHERE SUBURBAN KIDS ARE COMING INTO THE CITY AND TAKING ADVANTAGE OF OUR EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES.

WE NEED TO RETHINK EDUCATION ALTOGETHER, THAT IS WHAT WE WERE TRYING TO DO IN 1974.

BUT A SUPREME COURT DECISION CAME DOWN THAT PREVENTED THE JUDGE FROM ORDERING -- KATIE: LIMITED IT JUST TO BOSTON.

IRA: GREATER BOSTON AND AMERICA WOULD HAVE BEEN A DIFFERENT REGION AND COUNTRY TODAY.

KATIE: WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE NEXT STEP?

MILLY: THE KEYWORD, METROPOLITAN, METCO IS THE METROPOLITAN COUNCIL FOR EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES, IT IS A SMALL PART OF A SOLUTION.

WE HAVE STUDENTS GOING TO METCO EVERY DAY.

WHAT WAS EXCITING ABOUT THIS JOB WAS THE INTEGRATION PART OF IT AND THE ABILITY TO BREAK DOWN RACIAL BARRIERS BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE BEING EDUCATED TOGETHER.

WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE JUDGE DECISION, THE INTENT VERSUS THE OUTCOME, WAS THAT WE WERE GOING TO BE INTEGRATED AND WORK COLLABORATIVELY TO HAVE GOOD EDUCATION AT ALL OF OUR SCHOOLS.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS WHITE FLIGHT, PEOPLE JUST LEFT.

THE WHITE FAMILIES THAT WERE ASKED TO BE INTEGRATED LEFT TO THE SUBURBS.

IT WAS SEGREGATED AGAIN BUT WITH A DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHIC.

WE SEE TODAY THAT THE SCHOOLS ARE MORE SEGREGATED NOW THAN THEY WERE BEFORE.

THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE WORKING ON AS PART OF THE SOLUTION BUT WE DON'’T WANT TO INTEGRATE JUST FOR THE SAKE OF SHOWING UP IN CLASSROOM.

WE WANT TO CHANGE THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM BY HAVING INTEGRATED SCHOOL EXPERIENCES FOR EVERYONE.

HOW DOES EVERY STUDENT BENEFIT FROM AN INCLUSIVE, INTEGRATED AND EQUITABLE EDUCATION?

THAT IS WHAT WAS MISSING, THE INTEGRATION, THE EQUITY WAS MISSING, WE ARE WORKING WITH OUR DISTRICT ON THE METROPOLITAN SIDE TO HAVE ASSESSMENTS AROUND EQUITY, TO DO TRAININGS ON HOW WE WORK TOGETHER ON ANTIRACISM.

HOW WE COMMUNICATE THAT WE CARE ABOUT THIS TOPIC AND UNDERSTAND WE CAN ALL DO BETTER WHEN WE GET EDUCATED TOGETHER.

I HOPE THERE IS A SOLUTION IN THE NEAR FUTURE HOW DO WE CONTINUE TO DEAL WITH THE SEGREGATION IN THE CITY?

THERE IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE IN IMBALANCE OF POWER, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT WE ARE DEALING WITH WITH RACE ISSUES.

IRA: RECENT RESULTS SHOW THAT BOSTON KIDS, THE DISCREPANCY BETWEEN THE SUBURBS AND INNER-CITY, CONTINUES TO EXIST AND IS EVEN GROWING.

THE GLOBE ASKED, WHERE IS THE URGENCY?

WE HOPE OUR DESEGREGATION AND BUSING EDUCATION INITIATIVE WILL INCREASE THE URGENCY OF IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF EDUCATION FOR EVERY ONE OF OUR CHILDREN.

KATIE: YOU MENTIONED A LOT OF PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THIS INITIATIVE LIVED THROUGH IT.

I WOULD LOVE IT IF YOU COULD TELL US ABOUT SOME OF WHAT YOU SAW FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT.

IRA: I ACCOMPANIED THE SCHOOL BUSES THAT LEFT A STAGING AREA TO SOUTH BOSTON FROM THE HEIGHTS.

AND I WITNESSED SOMETHING, I WAS SHOCKED TO EXPERIENCE IT.

I MIGHT EVEN HAVE SUFFERED FROM PTSD.

WHAT I SAW WAS YOUNG BLACK CHILDREN FACING AN ANGRY CROWD OF WHITES WHO WERE THROWING BRICKS AT THEM AND YELLING THE N-WORD.

AND OCCASIONALLY THROWING BANANAS AT THEM.

IT WAS INHUMAN.

AND IT WAS VIOLENT, AND IT COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE.

THE MAYOR MAYOR WHITE AND THE TEAM, WE ENDEAVOR TO KEEP THOSE KIDS SAFE.

THERE WAS A DANGER THAT WHITEY BULGER WAS GOING TO SHOOT AND KILL BLACK CHILDREN THAT DAY.

I CALLED TO THE MAYOR ON THE POLICE RADIO, AND I SAID GOOD NEWS, NO ONE WAS SHOT AND KILLED.

BUT THOSE BLACK KIDS WERE ON THE FLOOR OF THOSE BUSES WITH GLASS SHARDS IN THEIR HAIR.

BEING ESCORTED INTO A SCHOOL THAT WAS NOT FUNCTIONING.

AND THAT WAS OPENING DAY OF BUSING, IT WAS UGLY IN THE EXTREME.

OUR COLLEAGUE, WHO WAS THE HEAD OF THE NAACP, HE WAS SEVEN YEARS OLD AND BEING BUSED TO CHARLESTOWN.

HE FACED AN ANGRY CROWD OF WHITES.

AT AGE SEVEN HE ASKED HIS MOTHER WHY DO THEY HATE US?

KATIE: THAT IS A REALLY TOUGH THING FOR A KID THAT YOUNG TO HAVE TO -- IRA: I THINK THERE MAY BE A WHOLE GENERATION OF YOUNG BLACK AND WHITE KIDS WHO WERE TRAUMATIZED AND WHO LOST A DECADE BECAUSE OF THE TRAUMA OF BUSING AND HOW DESEGREGATION CAME TO PASS IN BOSTON.

KATIE: PROBABLY COUNTLESS SOCIAL AND HUMAN LESSONS TO BE LEARNED.

DO YOU THINK THERE ARE LESSONS ON THE POLITICAL LEVEL FOR HOW IT WAS HANDLED?

IRA: SHIRLEY, -- FOR SURE, THE BOSTON SCHOOL COMMITTEE WAS RACIST, AND I BELIEVE THE JUDGE SHOULD HAVE HELD THEM INTO -- IN CONTEMPT AND THEY SHOULD HAVE GONE TO PRISON.

I THINK THAT WAS A BIG FAILURE ON HIS PART.

THERE IS A BOOK WRITTEN THAT SAID RICH PEOPLE WERE EXEMPT, MIDDLE-CLASS PEOPLE LEFT, POOR PEOPLE INTEGRATED THE BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

IT IS NOT JUST A QUESTION OF RACE, BUT OF CLASS AND SOCIAL JUSTICE.

AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP STANDING UP AND SAYING THESE ARE OUR KIDS, THERE IS A KID IN ROXBURY TODAY WHO COULD CURE CANCER OR LAND TO THE FIRST WOMAN ON MARS.

WHY AREN'’T WE EDUCATING THEM AS WELL AS THEY ARE BEING EDUCATED IN THE DOVER PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

WHY ARE WE ALLOWING THAT TO HAPPEN IN THIS DAY AND AGE?

KATIE: WE WILL LEAVE IT ON THAT QUESTION.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND SHARING YOUR INSIGHTS WITH US.

FOR MORE INFORMATION ON THE BOSTON DESEGREGATION AND BUSING INITIATIVE, AND NEXT WEEK'’S FORUM, HAD TO MASSHIST.ORG /EVENTS..

LAWMAKERS AREN'’T OMITTING MORE OVERSIGHT OVER THE STATES CANNABIS CONTROL COMMISSION, A GROUP OF REPRESENTATIVES SENT A LETTER URGING THE CANNABIS POLICY COMMITTEE TO CALL A HEARING AND BETTER TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THE CCC.

THEY CITE THE OUSTER OF ITS SHARE AS JUST A SIGN OF ONE OF ITS PROBLEMS.

MICHAEL MOORE JOINS US NOW ALONG WITH BOSTON BUSINESS JOURNAL REPORTER CASSIE MCGRATH.

ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS WAS A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, YOU WROTE A STORY WITH THE HEADLINE " WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON AT THE CANNABIS CONTROL COMMISSION?"

AND THE OBVIOUS QUESTION IS, WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON?

CASSIE: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

STARTING IN SEPTEMBER 2022, WHEN SHANNON O'’BRIEN WAS APPOINTED TO THE CCC, THERE WAS A REPORT THAT SHE HAD PREVIOUSLY WORKED IN THE CANNABIS INDUSTRY WITH A CULTIVATOR.

GOING BACK ABOUT A YEAR NOW.

IT CREATED CONFUSION IN THE INDUSTRY OF WHETHER THE CHAIR, WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THE CANNABIS INDUSTRY, WAS STILL OPERATING A BUSINESS.

THIS IS AROUND SEPTEMBER OR OCTOBER LAST YEAR.

AND THE BUSINESS SHE HAD FORMERLY WORKED WITH WAS ROD UP FOR FINAL LICENSE SURE -- WAS BROUGHT UP FOR FINAL LICENSE SURE, WHICH ALLOWS THEM TO OPEN THEIR DOORS.

AMID THAT CONVERSATION, SHANNON O'’BRIEN RECUSED HERSELF IN THE CONVERSATION, BUT THE COMMISSIONERS DECIDED TO REMAND THE LICENSE BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT CONFIRM THAT SHANNON O'’BRIEN HAD NO MORE TIES TO THE COMPANY.

THE CCC STARTED AN INVESTIGATION, BUT IT WAS TRUE THE INVESTIGATION FOUND THAT SHE HAD STOPPED WORKING WITH THEM OVER A YEAR PRIOR.

JUST A BUMPY START, FAIR TO SAY FOR THE CHAIR.

BUT THAT BRINGS US INTO JANUARY OF THIS YEAR WHEN THE CCC RETURNED TO PUBLIC MEETINGS BUT A COUPLE OF MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC CAME TO ME AND SAID THEY WERE NOT ALLOWED TO GO IN.

THERE WAS MORE CONFUSION AROUND IF PEOPLE COULD ATTEND PUBLIC MEETINGS.

THE CCC WAS FOLLOWING PUBLIC MEETING PRACTICES FROM COVID.

BUT THERE WAS CONFUSION AROUND TRANSPARENCY.

AND IN MARCH THERE WAS AN INVESTIGATION WHICH THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO DO, OF A TESTING FACILITY.

AND THE CEO ACCUSED THE CCC OF BEING RUDE AND UNPROFESSIONAL AND REALLY AGGRESSIVE DURING THE INVESTIGATION.

THE CCC DENIED THE ALLEGATIONS, THEY CONDUCTED AN INVESTIGATION THAT SAID THEY DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG BUT THE CEO SAID HE THOUGHT IT WAS RETALIATORY.

KATIE: WE HAD A LOT GOING ON EVEN BEFORE THIS PART.

SENATOR, THE POINTS SHE HAS BEEN MENTIONING ARE THE ISSUES THAT YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES RAISED IN YOUR LETTER, AS SOME OF THE PLACE OF DYSFUNCTION YOU HAVE IDENTIFIED AT THE CCC.

WHAT ARE YOU HOPING THE LESS INITIALLY SURE -- THE LEGISLATURE CAN DO?

SENATOR MOORE: IN JANUARY I FILED A BILL TO CREATE SPECIAL INSPECTOR GENERAL'’S UNIT IN THE CCC TO LOOK AT THEIR OVERALL GOVERNANCE POLICIES, PROCEDURES, MAKE SURE THEY ARE STAYING WITHIN THE SCOPE OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITY.

AND THEY ARE ACTING AS A REGULATORY ENTITY.

MCR LABS AND OTHER POTENTIAL BUSINESS OWNERS, WE HAVE HER COMPLAINTS OF THEIR TACTICS, AND HOW THEY ARE TREATING POTENTIAL BUSINESSES, RETAILERS, MANUFACTURERS.

UP UNTIL A YEAR AND A HALF AGO, I DID NOT HAVE MUCH INVOLVEMENT WITH THEM.

THEN I HAD A POTENTIAL BUSINESS OWNER FROM MY DISTRICT CALL, HAD ISSUES WITH THEIR INTERACTION WITH THE CCC, AND IT HAD TO DO WITH -- THEY WERE A VICTIM OF SOMEONE SELLING THEM PESTICIDE, A PLANT THAT HAD A CONTROLLED PESTICIDE.

YOU WOULD'’VE THOUGHT THEY WERE THE ONES WHO ACTUALLY WERE SELLING THE CLONE PRODUCT WITH A PESTICIDE IN HOW THEY WERE TREATED.

THAT IS HOW I STARTED DELVING INTO THEIR OPERATIONS IN DEALING WITH COLLEAGUES WHO WERE HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS WITH THE LENGTH OF THE INVESTIGATIONS, HOW THEY WOULD TREAT POTENTIAL RETAILERS, THERE IS NO COMMUNICATION.

THEY WOULD READ OUT TO THE CCC AND NO GET RESPONSES -- AND NOT GET RESPONSES ON TIMELINES.

I HAVE ONE COMPANY THAT SAID INVESTORS WERE ALMOST GOING TO PULL OUT.

THEY COULD SAY WE ARE SUCCESSFUL, WE HAVE AN INDUSTRY HERE, BUT WHAT WOULD THE TRUE IMPACT OF DEREGULATION OF CANNABIS, OPENING UP THE INDUSTRY BE IN MASSACHUSETTS IF THEY WERE WORKING WITH INVESTORS?

REMEMBER THAT THIS IS STILL FEDERALLY PROHIBITED.

WE DON'’T HAVE THESE PEOPLE OPENING UP THE BUSINESSES -- THEY DON'’T HAVE THE ACCESS TO FUNDS FROM FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS THAT OTHER BUSINESSES HAVE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE TO GET INDIVIDUAL INVESTORS, PUT UP THEIR OWN MONEY, AND TO HAVE THE TREATMENT THEY ARE GETTING FROM THE CCC AND THE LENGTH OF TIME, I UNDERSTAND IT IS A NEW INDUSTRY.

THERE WILL MAY BE SOME DELAYS.

BY THE DELAY SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE REGULATORY -- DEVELOPING THE REGULATIONS.

NOW WE HAVE ISSUES, YOU HAVE THE CANNABIS CONTROL COMMISSION, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND BELOW.

THIS IS THE SAME STRUCTURE WE HAVE ANOTHER BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS BUT MORE SPECIFICALLY THE GAMING COMMISSION.

THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR IN MEDIATION OVER WHO HAS WHAT OVERSIGHT ROLE.

THE CANNABIS CONTROL COMMISSION OR CONTROL THE AGENCY, THEY RUN THE DEPARTMENT, THEY HAVE ALREADY SPENT $600,000 ON LEGAL FEES OR EXPENSES TO DETERMINE WHO RUNS THE AGENCY?

OR WHAT CAPACITY THEY HAVE FOR OVERSIGHT?

THEN WE HAVE THE ISSUE -- A GOOD EXAMPLE OF IT WAS AFTER THE CHAIR WAS SUSPENDED, WHICH WE HAVE NOT SEEN WHY THE SUSPENSION WAS ADMINISTERED, WHY SHE WAS SUSPENDED.

KATIE: ALL WE KNOW IT WAS A PERSONNEL MATTER.

SENATOR MOORE: IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATUTE, THERE ARE FIVE REASONS THAT CHAIR COULD BE TERMINATED.

AND WE DON'’T KNOW, DID SHE VIOLATE ONE OF THOSE/IS THERE AN AUTHORITY IN THE STATUTE FOR ALL OF THE TREASURY -- AFTER THE SUSPENSION OCCURRED, AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT IS GOING ON, THE NEXT DAY THE CCC HAD A 40 MINUTE DEBATE ON WHO THE NEXT CHAIR WOULD BE.

EVEN THOUGH THE CHAIR, SHANNON O'’BRIEN, HAD ADMINISTERED BEFORE THE SUSPENSION, HAD ISSUED A DIRECTIVE THAT THE SECRETARY WOULD BE THE COMMISSIONER.

THEY HAD A DEBATE ON THAT FOR 40 MINUTES AFTER THAT.

WE'’VE GOT BUDGETARY ISSUES THAT WE DON'’T KNOW, BECAUSE THEY ARE LOOKING FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE BUDGET, YET THEY HAVE TWO OR THREE OF THEIR ADMINISTRATIVE POSITIONS UNFILLED.

IF THOSE POSITIONS ARE UNFILLED, AND YOU HAVE A BUDGET ISSUE, WHERE DID THE EXPENDITURE GO?

WE HAVE HEARD THEY WANT TO SPEND MONEY ON ARTWORK IN THEIR OFFICE SPACE, WHICH THEY ARE STILL WORKING REMOTELY, SO NO ONE IS GOING INTO IT.

I DON'’T THINK WE SHOULD BE WORRYING ABOUT ART IN THE WORKPLACE WHEN WE HAVE ENTITIES THAT ARE TRYING TO GET UP AND RUNNING AND NEED THEIR FINANCIAL OBLIGATIONS TO GET PEOPLE EMPLOYED.

KATIE: THERE IS A LOT OF QUESTIONS TO LOOK INTO.

I KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THE CCC AND THE MEETINGS THIS WEEK THE DEBATE OVER WHO SHOULD BE THE CHAIR.

WHAT IS THEIR CURRENT LEADERSHIP SITUATION?

WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN DOING IN TERMS OF WORK WHILE THIS HAS BEEN PLAYING OUT?

CASSIE: IMPORTANT CONTEXT IS BACK IN FEBRUARY THEY BEGAN A REGULATORY REVIEW PROCESS.

IT HAS A STATUTORY MANDATE TO WRITE OUT REGULATIONS, MUNICIPAL EQUITY AND SUITABILITY BY NOVEMBER 9.

I MISS THESE PERSONNEL ISSUES, CONFUSION AROUND IF THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR WAS WORKING, HE TOOK FAMILY LEAVE, AND THE CHAIRS SUSPENSION.

THIS WEEK THE SENATOR EXPLAINED IT WELL THAT THEY DID SPEND TIME TO SWITCH UP THE TYPICAL PRACTICE THAT THEY USED WHEN THERE WAS A CHAIR ABSENT.

AND PUT A COMMISSIONER IN CHARGE OF RUNNING THE MEETINGS.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT COMMISSIONER IS ON THE MOST WORKING GROUPS.

BUT EVEN BEYOND THIS DEADLINE THERE ARE A TON OF ISSUES THAT THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY REALLY WANTS TO SEE ADDRESSED BY THE CCC AND THEIR REGULATIONS.

THIS REGULATORY REVIEW IS NOT LIMITED TO THE STATUTORY MANDATES.

THERE IS A LOT OF HOPE THERE ARE OTHER PRIORITIES BEING CARRIED OUT BY THE CCC, AND THERE IS REAL CONCERN THAT BUSINESSES WILL GO UNDER IN THE MEANTIME.

OVERALL THERE IS A LOT OF QUESTIONS AROUND THE WHY OF THE SUSPENSION, I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF CONVERSATION THAT DESPITE THESE FRUSTRATIONS, PEOPLE ARE IMPRESSED THAT THE CCC WAS ABLE TO CONTINUE THE REGULATORY DISCUSSIONS.

KATIE: MARATHON MEETINGS.

CASSIE: EXACTLY.

THEY HAVE MADE IT THROUGH A LOT OF THE DISCUSSIONS.

THERE IS SOME HOPEFULNESS AROUND THAT, BUT THAT DOESN'’T MEAN THE WORK IS DONE ON NOVEMBER 9.

IF ANYTHING THE WORK IS JUST BEGINNING.

KATIE: SENATOR, YOU ASKED SOME OF YOUR COLLEAGUES TO CONSIDER HOLDING AN OVERSIGHT HEARING.

HAVE YOU RECEIVED WORD BACK?

SENATOR MOORE: NO WE HAVEN'’T, I HAVE REACHED OUT TO THE HOUSE AND SENATE CHAIR OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE TO LET THEM KNOW THE LETTER WAS COMING.

HOPEFULLY THEY HAVE HAD TIME TO DISCUSS THE LETTER AND GIVE US AN ANSWER WHETHER WE WILL SEE AN OVERSIGHT HEARING.

I SAID ORIGINALLY I FILED THIS BILL IN EARLY JANUARY.

NOW WITH ALL OF THE ISSUES THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE, I THINK WE NEED TO SEE LEGISLATION PASSED, OVERSIGHT HEARINGS.

LIKE WE TALKED ABOUT WITH AND THE CONDUCT OF THE INVESTIGATORS, WHEN THAT TOOK PLACE IT WAS IN THE GLOBE, THE CCC WAS GOING TO DO THEIR INVESTIGATION.

WE ONLY RECENTLY, SINCE THIS LETTER CAME OUT, DID THEY COME OUT AND SAY THAT THERE CONDUCT WAS APPROPRIATE.

WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE.

KATIE: A LOT STILL TO LOOK INTO AT THE COMMISSION AND WITHIN THE LEGISLATURE.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR TIME AND CHATTING ABOUT IT WITH US TODAY.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT, WE WILL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

IN THE MEANTIME TELL US WHAT YOU THINK, THE EMAIL IS TALKINGPOLITICS@WGBH.ORG.

THE WEBSITE IS GBHNEW S.ORG/TALKINGPOLITICS.

FOR NOW, THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD NIGHT.

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