>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> AFTER ALL THE STIPULATIONS AND TIES YOU HAVE TO DO YOUR BEST.

>> FROM POLITICAL PRISONER TO PRIME MINISTER, MALAYSIA'S IBRAHIM ON BEING A BRIDGE BETWEEN UNITED STATES AND CHINA.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> A LOT OF TIMES THERE'S A LOT OF LOVE AND JOY AND CONNECTION, AND SOMEHOW THOSE THINGS AREN'T TAKEN AS SERIOUSLY.

>> ANN PATCHETT'S MEDITATION ON LOVE.

THE AWARD-WINNING AUTHOR OF "TOM LAKE" JOINS ME.

PLUS -- >> THEY DID SUCH AN AMAZING JOB AND REALLY PAVED THE WAY FOR THE WOMEN WHO CAME AFTER THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE SO ADAPTIVE AND CAPABLE OF THEIR JOBS.

>> "THE SIX."

JOURNALIST LOREN GRUSH SPEAKS ABOUT HER NEW BOOK ON AMERICA'S FIRST WOMEN ASTRONAUTS.

"AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING WE'RE.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

SETON J. MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

CLOSING OUT A WEEK OF REPORTING AND INTERVIEWS FROM THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

THE WAR IN UKRAINE AND DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY TOOK CENTER STAGE WITH THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT EVEN URGING AN END TO THE WAR IN ORDER TO FOCUS ON OTHER GLOBAL CHALLENGES, INCLUDING THE WORSENING CLIMATE CRISIS AND RISING INEQUALITY.

BUT NO SHOWS INCLUDED RUSSIAN PRESIDENT PUTIN, CHINESE PRESIDENT XI JINPING, AND THE FRENCH AND BRITISH LEADERS.

RISING CHINESE POWER AND INFLUENCE IN THE INDO-PACIFIC REGION, A BIG FOCUS FOR MY FIRST GUEST, ANWAR IBRAHIM, THE PRIME MINISTER OF MALAYSIA.

BALANCING RELATIONS WITH BOTH CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES.

WE SPOKE ABOUT ALL OF THIS, INCLUDING HIS OWN INCREDIBLE JOURNEY FROM PROTEST LEADER TO POLITICAL PRISONER TO PRIME MINISTER.

JUST UNDER A YEAR AGO AFTER A LONG TIME IN WAITING, IBRAHIM BECAME PRIME MINISTER.

PRIME MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> 25 YEARS AGO AS WE SPEAK, YOU WERE FIRST ARRESTED, PUT BEHIND BARS, ON WHAT YOU'VE ALWAYS MAINTAINED HAVE BEEN POLITICALLY TRUMPED-UP AND FALSE CHARGES AND BETRAYALS.

SO WHAT DOES IT FEEL TO BE SITTING HERE TODAY, YOU'RE GOING TO BE ADDRESSING ALL THE WORLD LEADERS AFTER THAT INCREDIBLE JOURNEY?

>> WELL -- AT TIMES I THOUGHT THAT PROBABLY IT'S PART OF A DREAM.

I MEAN, YOU ARE STILL HAVING TO GRAPPLE WITH THE NEW REALITIES.

BUT YOU HAVE TO OVERCOME THAT.

AND THEN YOU HAVE WORK TO DO.

AND AFTER ALL THE STIPULATIONS AND TRIALS, YOU HAVE TO DO YOUR BEST.

>> AS I'M SPEAKING TO YOU, I HAVE AN IMAGE OF NELSON MANDELA.

HE SPENT 28 YEARS ALMOST IN JAIL, CAME OUT, TURNED HIS COUNTRY TO A THRIVING DEMOCRACY, WITH ALL ITS CHALLENGES.

I WONDER WHAT YOU TAKE AS AN EXAMPLE OF LEADERSHIP, WHEN YOU'RE FACED WITH A SIMILAR JOURNEY?

>> MANDELA TAUGHT ME A LESSON.

ONE IS TO BE ABLE TO FORGIVE, THE COMPASSION.

BUT TO BE REALLY FOCUSED ON WHAT YOU NEED TO DO FOR DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY AND TO SERVE YOUR PEOPLE.

AND I THINK THAT WILL HAVE TO DO FOR MALAYSIA.

A THRIVING DEMOCRACY.

WE HAVE LOST THIS STEEL FOCUS, NOWWE HAVE FREE FOCUS.

INITIATE CHANGES AND EFFECT REFORM FOR DEMOCRACY, FOR JUSTICE, AND ESSENTIALLY TO PROPEL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT TO SERVE THE PEOPLE.

>> WHEN YOU SAY INITIATE CHANGES, I WONDER IF THERE'S ONE THAT SPRINGS TO MIND.

BECAUSE YOU HAVE EMERGED AS PRIME MINISTER SINCE NOVEMBER LAST YEAR.

IT'S BARELY A YEAR.

AND YOU'RE IN A VERY DIFFERENT KIND OF WORLD, MAYBE, THAN EVEN FIVE YEARS AGO.

MASSIVE GEOPOLITICAL SUPERPOWER.

COMPETITION IN YOUR REGION.

THE THREAT TO DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD.

THE EXISTENTIAL CLIMATE CRISIS.

THE MASSIVE AND INCREASING DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE HAVES AND HAVE NOTS.

>> WELL, IN A WAY, IN MANY WAYS, THIS POST NORMAL TIMES HAVE GOTTEN WORSE -- >> DID YOU SAY POST NORMAL?

>> IT IS POST NORMAL BECAUSE OF THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM, THE DAMAGE.

CLIMATE, FOR EXAMPLE, CLEARLY A MAJOR ISSUE.

MIGRATION, CIVIL WARS.

THE REVIVING TREND TOWARDS SOMEWHAT OF A COLD WAR, WHICH IS QUITE -- WHICH WAS QUITE ABSENT WHEN I ENTERED PRISON.

SO THESE ARE NEW CHALLENGES.

AND DEMOCRACY DEFICIT, CLEARLY.

IN DEVELOPING COUNTRIES AND IN THE MUSLIM WORLD.

SO IT'S A MAJOR CHALLENGE.

WE WANT TO PROVE A POINT THAT WE CAN DO IT.

SO THE FOCUS HAS TO BE GOVERNANCE.

AND WE START WITH OUR OWN BACKYARD.

>> HOW MUCH OF A THREAT TO YOU AND TO THE STABILITY OF THE INDO-PACIFIC REGION IS THE COMPETITION BETWEEN THE SUPERPOWERS?

>> WELL, IT IS UNFORTUNATE.

ASEAN TALKS ABOUT CENTRALITY.

WE HAVE TO ENSURE THAT WE MAINTAIN EXCELLENT RELATIONS BOTH WITH CHINA AND UNITED STATES.

AND WE HAVE BEEN ASSERTING THE POINT THAT THEY CANNOT INSIST THAT WE TAKE SIDES.

IN THE SORT OF DIFFERENCES BETWEEN BOTH THESE COUNTRIES.

CHINA IS AN IMPORTANT NEIGHBOR, IMPORTANT TRADING NATION.

AND CLOSE TO US.

UNITED STATES HAVE BEEN TRADITIONALLY A LONG-TERM FRIEND, MORE RESPONSIBLE FROM THE BEGINNING TO INVEST AND HELP AND ASSIST TO DEVELOP THE COUNTRY.

HOW DO WE THEN NAVIGATE IN DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES?

OUR APPEAL THAT, LEAVE US TO LIVE IN A MORE DEMOCRATIC, PEACEFUL ATMOSPHERE AND THE CENTRALITY OF ASEAN, BUT MAINTAIN EXCELLENT RELATIONS WITH BOTH.

>> BUT YOU'VE SAID, I WOULD WANT MALAYSIA TO BE CLOSER TO THE UNITED STATES, AS MUCH AS WE ARE VERY CLOSE TO CHINA.

WHAT KIND OF CLOSENESS?

>> THIS IS OUR TRADITION OF FRIEND FOR A LONG TIME WITH UNITED STATES.

SO I THOUGHT UNITED STATES SHOULD BE MORE PROACTIVE IN RETAINING THAT SORT OF UNDERSTANDING, TRADITION OF DIPLOMATIC AND CULTURAL AND ECONOMIC RELATIONS.

WE STILL CONTINUE WITH VERY IMPORTANT DEFENSE MANAGEMENT WITH THE LARGEST DEFENSE COLLABORATION, STILL WITH UNITED STATES.

EDUCATION, TRADE, INVESTMENTS.

BUT WE SEEM TO -- WE CERTAINLY OBSERVE THE WEAKENING OR I SHOULD SAY LESS SORT OF A FOCUS.

BECAUSE PROBABLY THEY'RE MORE INVOLVED IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND UKRAINE, RUSSIA, OF LESS IMPORTANCE TO THEM.

>> SO I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THOUGHT OF CHINA'S MAP OF THE WORLD THAT IT BROADCAST JUST ON THE EVE OF THE LATEST G20 WHERE IT SHOWED OWNERSHIP OF GREAT BIG SWATHS OF INDIA, PARTS OF MALAYSIA, HISTORIC MALAYSIA, AND -- I MEAN, WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT?

>> I HAVE FORGED EXTREMELY CORDIAL AND GOOD RELATIONS WITH BOTH WANG YI, FOREIGN MINISTER, AND KIN YANG.

IF THERE ARE CONTENTIONS, WE CAN NEGOTIATE.

IT WAS CLEAR, YES, WE DO HAVE THIS CLAIM, BUT WE'LL NEVER DO ANYTHING TO EXERCISE ANY ACTION THAT WOULD EXPLOIT OR CAUSE DISSENSION WITH OUR COLLEAGUES, OUR FRIENDS IN THE REGION, AND WE'LL CONTINUE NEGOTIATING.

THAT WAS VERY REASSURING.

I MET HIM AGAIN AND WE -- HE REITERATED THE POINT, AT LEAST FOR MALAYSIA, I'M EXTREMELY SATISFIED.

>> THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

CLEARLY THEY'RE NOT SAYING THAT ABOUT TAIWAN.

HE SAYS, PRESIDENT XI AND OTHERS, BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY, TAIWAN WILL BECOME PART OF CHINA.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU WHEN YOU HEAR, BY ALL MEANS NECESSARY?

>> AS A FOREIGN POLICY POSITION, ONE CHINA POLICY.

WE ACCEPT.

BUT OF COURSE, WE ARE CONCERNED OF ANY TROUBLES IN THE AREA WILL ADVERSELY AFFECT THE REGION.

I DON'T BELIEVE THEY WOULD BE THAT AGGRESSIVE OR PROVOCATIVE.

AND IT IS ALSO FOR THE WEST, IN PARTICULAR TAIWAN, TO TRY AND AV AVOID WHAT IS TERMED AS UNNECESSARY PROVE OCCASIONS.

>> YOU DON'T THINK CHINA NEEDS TO AVOID UNNECESSARY PROVOCATION?

>> BOTH.

I THINK BOTH PARTIES.

OF COURSE, MALAYSIA IS A SMALL COUNTRY.

>> YOU'RE AFFECTED BY WHATEVER HAPPENS.

>> WE STILL TALK TO THEM IN PRIVATE, VERY FORCIBLY, ON SOME OF THESE CONTENTIOUS ISSUES.

AND I'M HAPPY BECAUSE THEY HAVE RESPONDED VERY WELL.

THEY'VE BEEN VERY EVOCATIVE AND PREPARED TO LISTEN.

>> LET ME GO BACK TO SOME ISSUES INSIDE THE COUNTRY.

WE ALL REMEMBER THAT YOU TOOK A VERY, VERY STRONG ANTI-CORRUPTION POSITION AS PART OF YOUR PLATFORM.

IT'S PART OF YOUR PUSHBACK FROM THE CHARGES THEY LEVELED AGAINST YOU AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

AND YET THIS MONTH, THE STATE HAS TAKEN A NUMBER OF ACTIONS THAT QUESTION THAT COMMITMENT TO BEING ANTI-CORRUPTION.

ONE OF YOUR SUPPORTERS SAYS THAT YOU'VE DITCHED YOUR REFORMIST GOALS IN THIS REGARD.

HE SAYS THIS IS HASSAN KAREEM OF THE PARTY.

"ANWAR IS CONCERNED MORE ABOUT THE SURVIVAL OF HIS GOVERNMENT AND HIS POWER RATHER THAN THE REFORM AGENDA HE HAD PROMISED THE PEOPLE."

WHAT ABOUT THE CHARGES THAT YOU'RE CRACKING DOWN, CLOSING SOME NEWS SITES, OPENING SEDITION AND GRAFT PROBES AGAINST OPPOSITION FIGURES?

IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD.

>> LOOK AT IT POSITIVELY.

REMEMBER, MY PARTY EXPRESSING CRITICISM AGAINST ME, IT'S THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

>> THAT'S ONE WAY TO LOOK AT IT.

WHAT ABOUT ACTUALLY DOING THAT STUFF?

IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE YOU'RE SUPPORTING YOUR INITIAL AGENDA.

>> OKAY, HERE'S CRITICISM ON THE ISSUE.

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT ME TO DO?

DO I THEN INSTRUCT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO CHANGE HIS DIVISION?

>> WHY ARE NEWS SITES BEING CLOSED DOWN?

WHY ARE SEDITION AND GRAFT PROBES BEING OPENED AGAINST OPPOSITION FIGURES?

IT'S THE FEELING OF A CRACKDOWN.

LIKE THE OPPOSITION LEADER, MOHAMMAD SANSI MENOR, CHARGED WITH SEDITION FOR ALLEGEDLY INSULTING THE COUNTRY'S REVERED FIGURES.

>> THAT IS THERE IN THE LAW.

YOU SEE ANY CRITICISM AGAINST A PRIME MINISTER OF THE GOVERNMENT, WOULD CHARGE WITH SEDITION.

I'VE BEEN ABUSED ON A DAILY BASIS.

NOT BEEN CHARGED.

YOU ATTACK THE RULERS, THE SULTANS, WE HAVE THE LAW -- >> IT'S LIKE THAILAND.

>> NOT AS SERIOUS, BUT THEN THE LAW IS THERE.

>> DO YOU THINK IT'S RIGHT?

>> UNLESS WE ARE ABLE TO MAKE SOME ADJUSTMENTS TO THE LAW, AMENDMENTS TO THE LAW, THEN WE CAN CONSIDER WHETHER TO CHARGE OR NOT.

BUT THE ISSUE -- YOU KNOW, THE SYSTEM OF THE ROYALTY HAS PARAPHERNALIA.

THERE IS I THINK THE NEED TO PROTECT THE INSTITUTION.

THAT'S WHAT THE PEOPLE HAVE DECIDED FROM INDEPENDENCE.

THERE'S A SYSTEM WE INHERIT.

SO WHEN A PERSON IS DEEMED TO BE ABUSIVE OF THE RULERS AND CHARGES ARE REFERRED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, THAT IS THE LAW.

UNTIL WE ARE ABLE TO AMEND THAT LAW, THE LAW PERSISTS.

I CANNOT BE CRITICIZED FOR THE PROSECUTION.

PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU TOUCH THE RULERS.

IF THE ISSUE IS THE CRITICISM AGAINST THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE PRIME MINISTER TAKES ACTION, THEN IT'S VERY -- YOUR CRITICISM IS VALID.

OTHERWISE, WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT.

>> OKAY.

LET ME ASK YOU -- I WANT TO PICK UP ON SOMETHING YOU SAID EARLIER, THAT YOU WANT TO SHOW THE REFORM, THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, AND PARTICULARLY HOW A MODERN MUSLIM NATION AND DEMOCRACY SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE AN EXAMPLE TO THE WORLD.

AS YOU KNOW, THIS YEAR YOU SAID MALAYSIA WOULD NEVER RECOGNIZE LGBTQ RIGHTS.

SODOMY, THAT WORD, CARRIES A PUNISHMENT OF 20 YEARS IN PRISON.

LAST MONTH, STORES THAT SELL SWATCH WATCHES WERE RAIDED.

THREE-YEAR PRISON SENTENCE THREATENED FOR PEOPLE WEARING OR SELLING WATCHES WITH THE LGBT ELEMENTS, THE COLORS.

I'VE GOT THE PICTURES.

IF I WAS SEEN WEARING A WATCH LIKE THAT, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO ME?

>> WELL -- I WOULDN'T DEFEND THAT ACTION.

RIGHT?

I SHOULD SAY EXCESS.

BUT THE LAW, MUSLIMS, NONMUSLIMS ALIKE, HINDUS, BUDDHISTS, THERE'S CONSENSUS IN THE COUNTRY.

THEY DO NOT ACCEPT THIS.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT -- >> DO NOT ACCEPT WHAT?

>> LGBT.

OPEN, PUBLIC DISPLAY OF THIS.

BUT DO THEN -- DO WE THEN GO AND HARASS THEM?

THAT'S A DIFFERENT SUBJECT.

I DO NOT APPROVE OF ANY ATTEMPT TO HARASS.

THE ISSUE OF, WHAT YOU SAID, SWATCH WATCHES -- >> SWATCHES, YES.

THREE-YEAR PRISON SENTENCE.

>> BUT THERE WAS NO CHARGE PREFERRED.

>> NO, NO.

A THREE-YEAR PRISON SENTENCE WAS THREATENED.

>> I CANNOT DEFEND ALL THE ACTIONS OF THE -- >> WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THAT CHANGE?

>> OF COURSE.

THE CONSENSUS OF THE PEOPLE, I'VE GOT TO RESPECT.

BUT YOU SHOULD NOT BE SEEN TO BE HARASSMENT -- >> THAT WORD, SODOMY, WAS FORCEFULLY LABELED AGAINST YOU AS WELL.

>> YES.

>> YOU MUST BE SENSITIVE TO THE ABUSE OF THAT KIND OF -- >> I AM.

IN FACT, I HAVE MADE IT QUITE CLEAR THAT WE NEED TO REVIEW AND LOOK AT THE LAW.

IT SHOULD NOT BE ABUSED.

IT SHOULD NOT BE AN ATTEMPT -- IN THE CASE THEN, THE TOOL BEING USED FOR POLITICAL PERSECUTION.

YES.

BUT FINALLY, WE HAVE TO RESPECT THE GREATER SENSE ITS OF MALA MALAYSIANS.

>> YOU THINK A DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL POLICY WHAT IS PEOPLE ACCEPT?

>> NOT NECESSARILY, BUT I THINK WE SHOULD EXERCISE SOME TOLERANCE, YES.

THE ISSUE AGAINST THE LGBT IS THE HARASSMENT.

THAT, I THINK, WE HAVE TO AVOID.

>> AND FINALLY, JUST REMIND US, PRIME MINISTER, AS YOU'RE SITTING HERE, WHAT YOU SUFFERED IN JAIL.

>> WHOA.

STUFF.

JAIL, FIRST OF ALL, IS NOT A BED OF ROSES.

I WAS BADLY ABUSED AND ASSAULTED TO NEAR DEATH THE NIGHT I WAS ARRESTED BY THE POLICE CHIEF.

SO TO -- IT WAS TOUGH.

NOT ONLY FOR ME BUT FOR AZIZA, MY WIFE, THE FAMILY, THE COLLEAGUES.

SO WHATEVER I LEARNED IS IMPORTANT.

THE MEANING OF FREEDOM.

THE VALUE OF DEMOCRACY.

THE MEANING OF COMPASSION IN A COUNTRY THAT MUST RESPECT THE RULE OF LAW.

PEOPLE'S BASIC RIGHTS TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES.

SO I'M IN A SENSE MORE A DEMOCRAT WHO BELIEVES IN VALUES, HUMAN RIGHTS, THAN BEFORE I WAS ARRESTED AND CHARGED WITH TRUMPED-UP CHARGES AND IMPRISONED.

>> PRIME MINISTER ANWAR IBRAHIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>> AN EXTRAORDINARY JOURNEY TO LEADERSHIP.

LAST WEEK WE BROUGHT YOU A WRENCHING REPORT FROM HAITI WHERE CORRESPONDENT PAULA NEWTON MET WITH SEVERAL WOMEN WHO SAY THEY WERE EXPLOITED OR ABUSED BY U.N. PEACEKEEPERS.

SOME TEARED CHILDREN AND LEFT MOTHERS TO STRUGGLE WITH BOTH POVERTY AND STIGMA.

HERE'S A SNIPPET.

>> WE SAT DOWN WITH A HALF DOZEN FAMILIES, SOME OF WHOM HAVE RECEIVED MONEY, MOSTLY FOR SCHOOLING.

ALL HAVE THE SAME COMPLAINT, THAT THEY WERE MADE TO FEEL LIKE BEGGARS, NOT VICTIMS OF EXPLOITATION, AND TO WAIT YEARS FOR LITTLE MONEY THAT DOES NOT MEET THE NEEDS OF THEIR CHILDREN.

>> Reporter: SHE SAYS SHE AND HER SON HAVE BEEN VICTIMIZED ALL OVER AGAIN.

FIRST, FIGHTING FOR PATERNITY TESTS, THEN FINANCIAL SUPPORT, SUBMITTING RECEIPTS FOR EXPENSES TO THE U.N., WAITING MONTHS OR YEARS FOR MONEY THAT ARRIVES SPORADICALLY OR NOT AT ALL.

IF MONEY IS GRANTED, THE U.N.

DECIDES HOW SHE SHOULD SPEND IT.

>> SO I ASKED THE U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL ABOUT THESE WRENCHING ISSUES WHEN I SAT DOWN WITH HIM AT THE U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL.

>> WHEN I SAW THAT, I IMMEDIATELY GAVE INSTRUCTIONS, LET'S SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING AND WHERE ARE WE FAILING?

BECAUSE WE SHOULDN'T FAIL.

AND THERE IS ANOTHER ISSUE THAT YOU DIDN'T MENTION THAT FOR ME, IT'S THE MOST DIFFICULT.

AND WHERE WE ARE HAVING CLEAR PROBLEMS.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE FATHERS WERE IDENTIFIED, AND IN MANY SITUATIONS THEY ARE IDENTIFIED, ASSUME THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES.

AND FOR THAT, THE COUNTRIES NEED TO DO IT THROUGH THEIR LEGAL SYSTEMS.

AND WE ARE HAVING A STRONG PROGRAM TO CREATE THE CONDITIONS TO MAKE COUNTRIES WORK ON THIS.

BUT IT HAS BEEN VERY TOUGH TO MAKE THINGS MOVE.

VERY TOUGH.

THERE IS A LOT OF RELUCTANCE.

MY APPEAL TO MEMBER STATES IS TO REALLY MAKE SURE THAT THOSE THAT HAVE CHILDREN RECOGNIZE THEM AND DO THE BEST THEY CAN TO ASSUME THEIR RESPONSIBILITY AS FATHERS.

>> NOW, THE SECRETARY-GENERAL HAD MADE THIS A PRIORITY.

LET'S HOPE NOW THAT OUR REPORTING HIS NEW PLEDGE LIGHTS A FIRE UNDER THOSE WHO HAVE ABSOLUTELY GOT TO IMPLEMENT THIS CHANGE.

>>> NOW, WE RARELY GET TO SAY THIS, BUT NEXT, WE TURN TO LOVE AND JOY.

ANN PATCHETT, THE BEST-SELLING NOVELIST BEHIND "B ECHLTEL CANT WRITES ABOUT PAIN, SORROW.

SHE WAS AWARDED THE NATIONAL HUMANITIES MEDAL IN 2021 FOR PUTTING INTO WORDS THE BEAUTY, PAIN, AND COMPLEXITY OF HUMAN NATURE.

BUT FOR HER NEW BOOK "TOM LAKE," SHE TELLS ME SHE ENJOYED THIS DEPARTURE INTO EXPLORING LOVE IN ALL ITS MANY DIMENSIONS.

ANN PATCHETT, WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO THE LAST TIME WAS WHEN YOU PUBLISHED A SERIES OF NONFICTION, PERSONAL ESSAYS.

NOW YOUR NINTH NOVEL, "TOM LAKE," WHICH IS GOING GANGBUSTERS.

I JUST WANT TO READ A LITTLE THING WHICH I LOVE FROM ONE OF THE REVIEWS.

"SO MANY BOOKS ABOUT LOVE ARE ACTUALLY ABOUT HEARTBREAK.

ANN PATCHETT'S TOM LAKE IS NOT.

IT'S ABOUT ROMANTIC LOVE, MARITAL LIFE, MATERNAL LOVE, ET CE CETERA, ALL JOYFUL LOVE."

IS THAT DELIBERATE?

OR DO YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT NOT BEING SO TAYLOR SWIFT, TALKING ABOUT HEARTBREAK ALL THE TIME?

>> NO, ACTUALLY.

I DIDN'T.

BECAUSE I THINK THAT HEARTBREAK HAS BEEN WELL COVERED.

IT'S FUNNY.

I OWN A BOOKSTORE IN NASHVILLE, PARNASSUS.

AND I READ WHATEVER'S COMING OUT.

CONSTANTLY I'M READING NEW BOOKS.

AND THEY'RE WONDERFUL.

BUT HEARTBREAK AND DESPAIR, HOPELESSNESS, DEJECTION, COMPLETELY COVERED.

SO I FIGURED SLIPPING IN A BOOK ABOUT PERHAPS A HAPPIER LOVE, LITERARY FICTION ABOUT HAPPIER LOVE.

THERE'S JUST NOT A TON OF IT.

>> THAT IS SUCH A REALLY INTERESTING AND WELCOME OBSERVATION AND OBVIOUSLY STORY.

SO TELL US, FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T READ IT, WHAT THIS IS.

BECAUSE AS I SAID, IT'S PREMARRIED LIFE AND LOVE, IT'S MARRIED LOVE, IT'S MATERNAL LOVE, IT'S SO MANY DIFFERENT LAYERS OF.

AND THERE'S THE MOTHER AND HER HUSBAND AND THE DAUGHTERS ALL REJOINED DURING THE PANDEMIC FOR THIS STORYTELLING?

>> YES.

SO IT'S 2020, AND LAURA IS ON THE CHERRY FARM WHERE SHE LIVES IN TRAVERSE CITY, MICHIGAN, WITH HER HUSBAND, THEIR THREE 20-SOMETHING YEAR OLD DAUGHTERS HAVE COME HOME DURING THE PANDEMIC.

ONE BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO GO HOME, AND TWO, THEY NEED HELP TO PICK THE CHERRIES.

THE DAUGHTERS SAY, ALL RIGHT, IF WE HAVE TO WORK ON THIS FARM THIS SUMMER, YOU ARE FINALLY GOING TO TELL US THE STORY OF WHEN YOU WERE 24, MOM, AND FELL IN LOVE WITH PETER DUKE.

WHEN LAURA WAS 24, SHE THOUGHT SHE WAS GOING TO BE AN ACTRESS.

SHE WAS AN ACTRESS.

SHE WAS AT SUMMER STOCK THEATER.

THE SUMMER STOCK IS CALLED TOM LAKE.

AND SHE WAS IN LOVE WITH A BOY NAMED PETER DUKE.

AT THE END OF THE SUMMER, LAURA STOPS ACTING AND PETER DUKE GOES ON TO BE THE MOST FAMOUS ACTOR OF HIS GENERATION.

SO THE NOVEL GOES BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE WORK ON THE FARM AND THE STORY OF THIS KIND OF EXPLOSIVE, CATASTROPHIC, WONDERFUL, HORRIBLE ROMANCE WHEN LAURA WAS 24.

>> SO SHE WAS 24.

IT WAS A SUMMER ROMANCE.

BUT YOU'VE JUST POINTED OUT SOMETHING THAT OBVIOUSLY REALLY ZINGS WITH TODAY AND PROBABLY EVERY DAY, THAT THE MAN GETS TO GO OFF AND LIVE HIS BEST LIFE.

AND THE WOMAN, AT LEAST IN THIS STORY, GOES AND GETS MARRIED AND RAISES THEY CHILDREN, HAS A HAPPY MARRIAGE.

THAT'S GREAT.

BUT SHE DOESN'T GET TO FOLLOW HER CAREER LOVE.

WHAT DID THAT SAY TO YOU?

>> RIGHT.

WELL, WHAT'S INTERESTING IS YOU JUST SAID, WHAT YOU SAID IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

THE MAN GETS TO GO OFF AND LIVE HIS BEST LIFE.

THAT'S WHAT THE GIRLS THINK, BECAUSE THEY'RE IN THEIR 20s.

BUT IN FACT, THE LIFE THAT DUKE HAS AS A MOVIE STAR AND AS AN ADDICT ACTUALLY ISN'T ANYBODY'S IDEA OF A BEST LIFE.

AND THE LIFE THAT LAURA HAS, IN WHICH SHE'S HAPPILY MARRIED AND HAS VERY FULFILLING WORK AND LOVES HER DAUGHTERS, IS, IN FACT, THE BEST LIFE.

AND THAT'S WHAT SHE'S TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO HER CHILDREN, THAT WHAT SEEMS SUPERFICIALLY TO BE THE DREAM MAY NOT, IN FACT, BE THE SOURCE OF HAPPINESS.

>> CAN I ASK YOU -- WE'VE ASKED YOU TO READ A LITTLE SOMETHING, WHATEVER YOU'VE DECIDED TO CHOOSE TO ILLUSTRATE THIS, WOULD YOU MIND?

>> YES, AND ACTUALLY IT GOES PERFECTLY WITH THIS CONVERSATION THAT WE'RE HAVING.

"THERE IS NO EXPLAINING THE SIMPLE TRUTH ABOUT LIFE.

YOU WILL FORGET MUCH OF IT.

THE PAINFUL THINGS YOU WERE CERTAIN YOU'D NEVER BE ABLE TO LET GO OF, NOW YOU'RE NOT ENTIRELY SURE WHEN THEY HAPPENED.

WHILE THE THRILLING PARTS, THE HEART-STOPPING JOYS, SPLINTERED AND SCATTERED AND BECAME SOMETHING ELSE.

MEMORIES ARE THEN REPLACED BY DIFFERENT JOYS AND LARGER SORROWS, AND UNBELIEVABLY, THOSE THINGS GET KNOCKED ASIDE AS WELL, UNTIL ONE MORNING YOU'RE PICKING CHERRIES WITH YOUR THREE GROWN DAUGHTERS AND YOUR HUSBAND GOES BY ON THE GATOR AND YOU ARE POSITIVE THAT THIS IS ALL YOU HAVE EVER WANTED IN THE WORLD."

>> SO THAT IS PERFECTLY PLACED, GIVEN WHAT WE'VE JUST BEEN SPEAKING ABOUT.

IT IS REALLY WONDERFUL.

AND ALSO, I HEARD THAT YOU'D SAID IN ONE OF YOUR INTERVIEWS THAT YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY FINDING JOY AMIDST KIND OF THE HELLSCAPE THAT WE'RE LIVING THROUGH.

MANY PEOPLE LIVE THROUGH NOW, IN THE FUTURE IN THE PAST.

THIS DOES FIND THAT JOY, WHICH VERY FEW NOVELISTS ACTUALLY FOCUS ON TODAY.

>> WELL, THE THING IS, IT'S TRUE.

AND I SAY THIS LATER IN THE NOVEL.

BOTH THINGS ARE TRUE.

THERE ARE TERRIBLE THINGS GOING ON IN THE WORLD.

THEY ARE REPORTED CONSTANTLY.

WE ARE AWARE OF THEM.

BUT RIGHT NEXT TO THOSE TERRIBLE THINGS, THERE ARE ALWAYS WONDERFUL THINGS.

AND THE WONDERFUL THINGS TEND TO BE THE THINGS THAT ARE VERY CLOSE.

THE PEOPLE THAT WE KNOW, OUR FAMILY, OUR FRIENDS, OUR NEIGHBORS, OUR COWORKERS.

A LOT OF TIMES THERE'S JUST A LOT OF LOVE AND JOY AND CONNECTION.

SOMEHOW THOSE THINGS AREN'T TAKEN AS SERIOUSLY.

THEY AREN'T CONSIDERED TO BE LITERATURE.

I ALWAYS SAID, IF I WROTE A BOOK ABOUT SERIAL KILLERS, PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WELL, THAT'S VERY REALISTIC.

BUT I DON'T KNOW ANY SERIAL KILLERS, I DON'T THINK I DO.

BUT IF I WRITE ABOUT A LOVING MARRIAGE, A LOVING MOTHER, THINGS THAT I EXPERIENCE IN MY LIFE, PEOPLE SAY, OH, SHE'S A POLLYANNA, SHE DOESN'T SEE HOW HARD THE WORLD IS.

I DO SEE HOW HARD THE WORLD IS, BUT IT'S NOT JUST ONE THING.

>> ACTUALLY, I PICK YOU UP THERE A LITTLE BIT.

I BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO HAVE CHILDREN, SO YOU'RE NOT A MOTHER?

>> RIGHT.

>> YEAH, AND -- >> I'M NOT A MOTHER, I'M NOT AN ACTRESS, I'M NOT A CHERRY FARMER.

>> EXACTLY, SO IT'S STORYTELLING.

I THINK THAT'S, AGAIN, REALLY CRITICAL, GIVEN THE SORT OF LARGER STORY THAT GOES ON, HOW CAN YOU WRITE ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW AND HAVEN'T EXPERIENCED?

SO HER RELATIONSHIP WITH HER DAUGHTERS IS OBVIOUSLY FUNDAMENTAL TO THE BOOK.

AND HERE'S A LITTLE PIECE FROM HER, LAURA, THE NARRATOR, STRUGGLING HOW TO TELL THIS STORY OF YOUNG LOVE TO HER KIDS.

"I WANT THEM TO THINK I WAS BETTER THAN I WAS.

I WANT TO TELL THEM THE TRUTH IN CASE THE TRUTH WILL BE USEFUL.

THOSE TWO DESIRES DO NOT NEATLY COEXIST."

IS THIS THE TRUTH ABOUT HAPPINESS IN THIS KIND OF FAMILY?

OR IS IT THE TRUTH ABOUT YOUNG LOVE AND HOW THAT TURNS OUT AND HOW IT'S NOT ALWAYS WHAT YOU THINK IT IS AND HOW -- ET CETERA?

>> I THINK IT'S A LOT ABOUT STORYTELLING, AND I BELIEVE THAT IF YOU HAVE A STORY TO TELL, YOU TELL IT DIFFERENTLY DEPENDING ON WHO YOU'RE TALKING TO.

SO YOU'RE GOING TO TELL YOUR HUSBAND ONE STORY, YOUR CO-WORKER ONE STORY, ONE VERSION OF THE SAME STORY, A TOTAL STRANGER ANOTHER VERSION.

THAT'S NOT ABOUT LYING.

IT'S ABOUT HOW WE PACKAGE OUR EXPERIENCE TO MAKE IT WORK FOR OUR LISTENERS.

AND SO LAURA DOESN'T TELL EVERYTHING TO HER DAUGHTERS.

NOBODY TELLS ANY ONE PERSON EVERYTHING.

THAT'S HOW WE COMMUNICATE.

>> WHAT ABOUT MERYL STREEP READING IT?

I DO THINK THAT'S JUST WONDERFUL.

HOW DID YOU FEEL, DID YOU CHOOSE HER?

HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN?

>> WHAT ABOUT MERYL STREEP READING IT?

THAT WAS REALLY AMAZING.

SO MERYL'S VOICE WAS DEFINITELY THE VOICE IN MY HEAD WHILE I WAS WRITING THIS BOOK.

SHE HAS THREE DAUGHTERS.

IT JUST -- I THINK THAT MERYL'S VOICE IS PROBABLY IN THE HEAD OF EVERY NOVELIST.

AND I HAD MET HER ONCE 15 YEARS AGO.

THERE WAS A VERY, VERY BRIEF PERIOD OF TIME WHERE IT LOOKED LIKE SHE MIGHT POSSIBLY BE INTERESTED IN PLAYING ROXANNE CASS IN THE MOVIE OF MY NOVEL, "BEL CANTO."

SO WE HAD MET AND TALKED ABOUT THAT, IT DIDN'T WORK OUT, AND YET IT WAS A VERY MEANINGFUL ENCOUNTER.

AND I THOUGHT SHE WOULD REMEMBER.

AND MY AGENT IS A WOMAN NAMED FELICITY BLUNT, WHO'S MARRIED TO STANLEY TUCCI, WHO HAD PLAYED MERYL'S HUSBAND IN "JULIE AND JULIA."

SO I GOT WORD TO HER AND SENT HER A THREE-SENTENCE DESCRIPTION OF THE NOVEL AND I SAID, IS THERE ANY CHANCE YOU MIGHT BE WILLING TO DO THE AUDIO?

AND SHE WROTE ME BACK RIGHT AWAY AND SAID, OH, THAT'S WONDERFUL, YOU'RE SO KIND TO THINK OF ME.

WHICH BLEW MY MIND.

BECAUSE OF COURSE I THINK OF HER ALL THE TIME.

BUT THE AUDIO IS SPECTACULAR.

I WAS THERE FOR TWO DAYS OF THE RECORDING.

AND TO JUST WATCH HER TURN MY WORK INTO THIS BEAUTIFUL THREE-DIMENSIONAL WORLD WAS A HUGE GIFT.

>> OKAY, SO THAT'S -- YOU JUST LEAD ME TO YOUR BOOKSTORE.

WHEN YOU SAY NOW IN MY BOOKSTORE.

IS THAT ALWAYS?

OR JUST NOW, WHEN YOU HAVE A SITUATION WHERE THERE'S SO MUCH CENSORSHIP OF BOOKS GOING ON, EVEN IN TENNESSEE, GROUND ZERO FOR THIS STRUGGLE OVER FREE SPEECH.

THE LEGISLATURE JUST PASSED A LAW THAT MAKES IT A FELONY FOR BOOK PUBLISHERS TO SELL OBSCENE CONTENT IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

HOW IS THAT ""AFFECTING YOU, AND "B," IF IT DOES, BLEED INTO LITERATURE?

WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

>> SO LAST NIGHT I WAS GOING OVER A LIST OF BOOKS THAT ARE BANNED IN TENNESSEE.

IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE MOST OF THEM SAY "REMOVED PENDING INVESTIGATION."

AND I'M MAKING SOME VIDEOS JUST TO SPEAK OUT ON THE BOOKSTORE'S PLATFORM ABOUT PLABOONED BANNED BOOKS.

THE LIST WAS STAGGERING.

"BRAVE IRENE."

WILLIAM STEIG.

IT'S ABOUT A LITTLE GIRL WHO DELIVERS A BALL DOWN TO A DUTCHESS IN A SNOWSTORM.

IT WAS PUBLISHED I THINK PROBABLY IN THE '50s.

ANDREW SOLOMON'S BOOK, "FAR FROM THE TREE," WAS ON THE LIST.

I'D LIKE TO KNOW WHO ACTUALLY ON THAT BOARD TO BAN BOOKS READ "FAR FROM THE TREE," WHICH I THINK IS ABOUT 900 PAGES.

I'D LIKE TO MEET THE HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT WHO IS READING "FAR FROM THE TREE."

IT GOES ON AND ON.

THERE'S JUST SUCH RIDICULOUSNESS THAT WE IN TENNESSEE ARE TRYING TO KEEP CHILDREN SAFE FROM BOOKS THAT PEOPLE HAVEN'T READ -- I MEAN, CLEARLY, IF YOU'D SAT DOWN AND READ "BRAVE IRENE," A PICTURE BOOK ABOUT DELIVERING A BALL GOWN TO A DUTCHESS, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT IS NOT GOING TO HARM CHILDREN.

AT THE SAME TIME, WE AREN'T DOING ANYTHING TO KEEP OUR CHILDREN SAFE FROM GUNS.

SO THE IDEA THAT WE'RE GOING TO KEEP OUR CHILDREN SAFE FROM A PICTURE BOOK OR FROM A 900-PAGE BOOK ABOUT DIFFERENT THINGS THAT CAN HAPPEN IN FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN OF DIFFERENT NEEDS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT GUNS IN THIS STATE, IT'S LUDICROUS AND AN EMBARRASSMENT.

AND MORE THAN AN EMBARRASSMENT, IT'S A CRIME.

>> I MEAN, IT REALLY DOES SOUND COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS.

AND ALSO, YOU JUST PRETTY MUCH ANSWERED WHAT I WAS GOING TO ASK, WHICH IS, IS THERE ANY TEMPLATE?

WHAT IS OBSCENE?

ARE YOU TOLD WHAT IS OBSCENE?

THAT HAS TO BE BANNED?

>> NO.

NO, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY NOT.

AND THAT CREATES A WORLD OF SELF SEN FORSHIP.

AND SO PEOPLE GET NERVOUS AND THINK, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT JACQUELINE WOODSON NOVEL IS GOING TO GET ME IN TROUBLE AS A LIBRARIAN, AS A TEACHER, AND SO I BETTER TAKE IT OFF THE LIST.

AND IT'S TERRIBLE, AND THE WORST PART ABOUT IT IS IT IS AN ENORMOUS DISTRACTION SO THAT WE FIND ALL OF OUR ENERGY GOING TO DISCUSSING BOOK BANNING AND NOT TEACHERS' SALARIES, NOT MAKING SURE THAT OUR SCHOOLS ARE IN GOOD SHAPE AND SAFE FOR STUDENTS.

IT'S THE LOWEST-HANGING FRUIT.

>> YOU KNOW, WE REALIZE THE GREAT FILMMAKER, THE SPANISH FILMMAKER, PEDRO ALMODOVAR AT THE TORONTO FILM FEST VALE, GAVE AN IMPASSIONED DEFENSE AND PLEA FOR OTHER ARTISTS WHO HAVE BEEN LITERALLY SILENCED, IN JAIL IN IRAN AND ALL OVER THE WORLD, SAYING ALL MY WORK IS BORN OUT OF THE ABSENCE OF CENSORSHIP.

HE'S SPEAKING FOR HIMSELF.

YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT SELF-CENSORSHIP.

HOW BADLY DO YOU THINK THIS CAN CREEP INTO THE WIDER -- YOU KNOW, NEW BOOKS.

NOT JUST CENSORING THOSE THAT ARE OUT THERE NOW.

BUT WHAT PEOPLE MIGHT THINK BEFORE THEY ACTUALLY WRITE IN THIS CLIMATE?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THAT'S -- THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS.

AND THE INTERESTING THING IS, IT HAPPENS FROM BOTH DIRECTIONS.

IT'S NOT JUST WHAT WE CAN THINK OF AS CONSERVATIVES SAYING, YOU'D BETTER NOT PUBLISH A BOOK ABOUT LGBTQ ISSUES FOR MIDDLE GRADE STUDENTS BECAUSE THAT COULD GET CENSORED.

YOU COULD ALSO HAVE A SITUATION WHERE SOMEONE SAYS, I BETTER NOT BE WRITING OUTSIDE OF MY OWN EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY BECAUSE THEN I COULD GET CANCELED.

AND SO THERE REALLY IS A FEELING OF CENSORSHIP COMING FROM BOTH DIRECTIONS.

>> I WANT TO BRING YOU BACK TO MORE JOY, AND THAT IS "TOM LAKE."

AS WE FINISH THIS CONVERSATION.

>> SEE, THAT'S WHY I HAD TO WRITE THIS BOOK, RIGHT?

>> YES, YES.

YOU ABSOLUTELY -- NOW WE UNDERSTAND.

>> YEAH.

>> IS THERE A MASTER PLAN, ANN PATCHETT?

ARE YOU GOING TO GO -- WHAT IS YOUR NEXT WORK?

HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT IT?

IS IT NONFICTION?

IS IT ESSAYS?

IS IT ANOTHER NOVEL?

>> I THINK IT WILL PROBABLY BE ANOTHER NOVEL.

I AM ON BOOK TOUR RIGHT NOW.

AND WHEN PEOPLE SAY TO ME, "WHAT ARE YOU WRITING?"

AND I SAY, "I'M WRITING MY NAME.

I AM WRITING MY NAME IN YOUR BOOK RIGHT NOW."

THAT'S ALL THE WRITING I'M DOING BOILS DOWN TO TWO WORDS, "ANN "PATCHETT."

AND I AM WRITING IT IN BOOKS.

I HAVE A VERY SMALL IDEA.

SO WHEN I'M ON AN AIRPLANE IN A HOTEL ROOM TRYING TO GO TO SLEEP, I'VE GOT A NOVEL I DREAM ABOUT FOR THE FUTURE.

THAT'S JUST FOR ME.

>> THAT'S LOVELY.

BY THE WAY, WAS THERE A REAL-LIFE MODEL FOR PETER DUKE, THE RUGGEDLY HANDSOME, ROMANTIC LEAD?

>> YES.

EVERY GUY I DATED IN MY 20s.

>> LUCKY YOU, EXCEPT FOR HOW HE TURNED OUT.

>> YEAH.

REALLY, IT WAS GREAT.

YOU KNOW, I WENT TO THE IOWA WRITERS WORKSHOP.

AND THE POETS WERE ESPECIALLY DREAMY.

THEY SMOKED, THEY DRANK TOO MUCH, THEY READ PROUST, THEY WEPT, THEY WANDERED.

AND I THOUGHT, I CAN'T MAKE THIS CHARACTER A POET.

NOBODY WOULD BELIEVE IT.

BUT AS A YOUNG ACTOR, I THINK PEOPLE WOULD.

>> INDEED.

ANN PATCHETT, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, I APPRECIATE IT.

>> YEP, PROBABLY A UNIVERSAL "ISH" EXPERIENCE.

>>> SIX EXTRAORDINARY TRAILBLAZING WOMEN.

JOURNALIST LOREN GRUSH EXPLORES THE STORIES OF AMERICA'S FIRST FEMALE ASTRONAUTS IN HER NEW BOOK "THE SIX."

SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS.

>> LOREN GRUSH, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

40 YEARS SINCE SALLY RIDE BECAME PART OF THE FIRST BATCH OF STRIKEOUTS SELECTED.

WE REMEMBER HER NAME BECAUSE SHE WAS THE FIRST FEMALE ASTRONAUT.

YOU CHOSE TO WRITE "THE SIX" ON THE ENTIRE FIRST CLASS, IF YOU WILL.

FIRST OF ALL, WHY?

>> WELL, YOU KIND OF SAID IT.

I FEEL LIKE MOST OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC VIVIDLY REMEMBERS SALLY RIDE OR AT LEAST KNOWS THAT NAME.

BUT MAYBE MOST DON'T KNOW SHE WAS ONE OF SIX WOMEN WHO CAME ON BOARD AS THE FIRST CLASS OF WOMEN ASTRONAUTS IN 1978.

AND I WAS THE SAME WAY.

I FELT LIKE, EVEN AS A SPACE REPORTER, I KNEW SALLY RIDE.

I REALLY DIDN'T HAVE THE FULL HISTORY OF THESE OTHER FIVE WOMEN.

BUT WHAT I LEARNED FROM STUDYING THEM AND RESEARCHING THEM IS THAT ANY ONE OF THE SIX OF THEM COULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST AMERICAN WOMAN TO FLY.

SO I KIND OF LOVE THAT, YOU KNOW, DIVING BACK AND THINKING OF THE WHAT-IFS.

IF IT HAD JUST GONE ANOTHER WAY.

I FOUND THAT REALLY INTERESTING.

I THOUGHT, THEIR STORIES ARE JUST AS UNIQUE AND EXCITING AND WORTH SHARING.

SO I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GREAT WAY TO SHINE A SPOTLIGHT ON THIS GREAT GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS.

>> YEAH, AND THEY WERE ALL INCREDIBLY BRIGHT WOMEN.

I THINK FOUR Ph.Ds, TWO M.D.s.

THEY'RE ACCOMPLISHED IN THEIR LIVES ALREADY.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE SPACE PROGRAM THAT MADE THEM CURIOUS?

AND HOW DID THEY HEAR ABOUT IT OR WANT TO BE AN ASTRONAUT?

>> WELL, SOME OF THEM, YOU KNOW -- I THINK THEY'RE A GREAT ILLUSTRATION OF HOW THERE'S REALLY NO ONE TRUE PATH TO SPACE.

SOME OF THEM DREAMED OF BEING ASTRONAUTS SINCE THEY WERE LITTLE GIRLS.

SOME OF THEM DID NOT.

THEY ONLY WERE INTERESTED IN SCIENCE OR THEIR CHOSEN FIELDS, BUT THEN WHEN THEY SAW THAT NASA WAS ADVERTISING AND ACTUALLY BRINGING WOMEN INTO THE PROGRAM, THAT'S WHEN THEY REALIZED THAT, OH, I HAVE THE RIGHT CREDENTIALS.

I THINK THIS MIGHT BE REALLY SOMETHING I LOVE TO DO.

THEY ALL FOUND OUT ABOUT IT IN VARIOUS WAYS BECAUSE NASA WAS REALLY KEEN AT THE TIME TO MAKE SURE THAT WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR KNEW THAT THEY WERE OPENING UP THE ASTRONAUT SELECTION TO A WIDER ARRAY OF INDIVIDUALS.

AND SO THEY ALL HAVE THEIR UNIQUE PATHS ON GETTING TO SPACE.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM SUCH A GREAT GROUP IS BECAUSE THEY ARE SO DIFFERENT AND INTERESTING IN HOW THEY GOT THERE.

>> WHAT'S ENLIGHTENING ABOUT YOUR BOOK IS NOT JUST THAT YOU'RE GETTING TO THESE SIX, BUT THERE WERE ACTUALLY QUITE A FEW WOMEN BEFORE THEM THAT HAD CONTINUED -- BEGAN THIS FIGHT FOR EQUALITY AND CONTINUED AND CONTINUED UNTIL IT GOT TO A POINT WHERE THEY WERE ALLOWED IN.

>> YES.

SO THE BOOK DOES DETAIL A KIND OF FAMOUS GROUP OF WOMEN KIND OF KNOWN AS THE MERCURY 13.

IT'S NOT THE BEST NAME FOR THEM, BUT IT'S A NOD TO THE FACT THAT THEY PASSED THE SAME TESTS GIVEN TO THE MERCURY 7 ASTRONAUTS, THE FIRST ASTRONAUTS THAT CAME INTO THE PROGRAM, THE MALE ASTRONAUTS.

AND THEY VERY MUCH WANTED TO KEEP TRAINING TO GO TO SPACE, BUT THEIR TRAINING WAS CUT SHORT ONCE NASA AND THE U.S. GOVERNMENT FOUND OUT ABOUT IT BECAUSE IT WASN'T A NASA-SANCTIONED PROGRAM.

THEY LOBBIED CONGRESS HARD TO MAKE SURE THEY COULD KEEP TRAINING, TO TRY AND CONVINCE THEM THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO SEND A WOMAN INTO SPACE ALONG WITH THE MEN.

BUT ULTIMATELY AT THE TIME, THIS WAS THE 1960s, WE WERE VERY MUCH IN A HEATED SPACE RACE WITH THE SOVIETS TO GET TO THE MOON FIRST.

AND SO NASA DIDN'T REALLY SEE IT AS A PRIORITY TO SEND A WOMAN INTO SPACE.

IT WAS SEEN AS MORE OF A DISTRACTION.

ULTIMATELY THE SOVIETS DID END UP BEATING US BY SENDING THEIR FIRST WOMAN INTO SPACE.

WHEN THAT HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, NASA AND THE U.S. JUST DIDN'T SEE -- THEY KIND OF BRUSHED IT OFF AS A PUBLICITY STUNT.

>> THERE'S AN INTERESTING PIECE OF TESTIMONY THAT YOU HAVE FROM A HOUSE SPACE COMMITTEE IN 1962.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT JOHN GLENN, THE ASTRONAUT.

HE WAS TESTIFYING THAT WOMEN WOULD JUST NOT BE, QUOTE, AN ESSENTIAL ASSET FOR THE SPACE PROGRAM.

HE SAID IT, QUOTE, GETS BACK TO THE WAY OUR SOCIAL ORDER IS ORGANIZED.

I MEAN, THAT MUST HAVE BEEN AN INCREDIBLE BLOW TO WOMEN LISTENING, WOMEN IN NASA, SEEING AN ASTRONAUT HAVE THIS PLATFORM AND CHOOSE TO BE THIS DISMISSIVE.

>> IT REALLY WAS.

AND I THINK IT JUST KIND OF ILLUSTRATES HOW STRONG THE CULTURAL BIASES OF THE TIME WERE.

HERE WE HAD A VERY FAMOUS NASA ASTRONAUT PROPPING UP THESE -- THIS SEXISM.

I THINK IT WAS PRETTY NORMAL AT THE TIME FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO THINK THAT WAY.

NOT JUST MEN, BUT WOMEN AS WELL.

AND SO IT JUST GOES TO SHOW WHAT THESE WOMEN WERE UP AGAINST, HOW DIFFICULT IT WAS TO PUSH BACK AGAINST A VERY STRONG PATRIARCHY.

>> TELL ME ABOUT HOW THEY NAVIGATED THROUGH THIS.

WHAT KINDS OF TRAINING DID THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH?

>> RIGHT.

SO PROBABLY THE MOST EXCITING PART OF THE TRAINING IS THAT THEY HAD TO STAY CURRENT IN NASA'S SUITE OF T-38 JETS.

FOR THE WOMEN, SOME OF THEM WERE PILOTS WHEN THEY CAME ON THE PROGRAM, BUT THEY HADN'T FLOWN JETS BEFORE.

THEY WERE BACK SEATERS.

WHILE THEY WOULD GET TO TAKE CONTROL IN THE AIR OF THE PLANE, THEY COULDN'T TAKE OFF OR LAND.

HOWEVER, I DID SPEAK TO A FEW OF THEIR FORMER COLLEAGUES WHO TOLD ME THEY DID LET THEM TAKE OFF AND LAND BUT ONLY ADMITTED THAT MANY YEARS LATER.

BUT THE MAJORITY OF THEIR TIME WAS SPENT IN THE CLASSROOM.

LEARNING THE INS AND OUTS OF THE NEW SPACE SHUTTLE.

EVERY SYSTEM, EVERY COMPONENT.

IF ANYTHING BROKE OR ANY SYSTEM WENT WRONG, THEY HAD TO BE ABLE TO FIX IT OR TO TROUBLESHOOT IT.

AND THEN ALSO LEARNING VARIOUS SCIENTIFIC DISCIPLINES.

THE VARIOUS PAYLOADS THEY WOULD DEPLOY.

THEY WOULD BE STUDYING THE STARS OR LOOKING BACK AT EARTH.

THEY WOULD STUDY GEOLOGY.

OCEANOGRAPHY.

ASTROPHYSICS.

WHICH SOME OF THE WOMEN HAD ALREADY STUDIED PRETTY EXTENSIVELY BEFORE THEY CAME ON THE PROGRAM.

A LOT OF INFORMATION.

LEARNING LOTS OF THINGS THEY HAD TO RETAIN AND RECALL AT THE DROP OF A DIME.

>> YOU HAVE AN ANECDOTE ABOUT THEM GOING TO SEATTLE, I THINK IT WAS BOEING, AND KIND OF INTRODUCED TO THE 747.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> THIS STORY IS JUST GREAT.

IT REALLY SHOWS JUST HOW QUICKLY THE WOMEN REALLY TOOK TO THE FLYING AND THE CONTROLS OF A -- OF AN AIRCRAFT.

SO WHILE THEY WERE TRAINING, A GROUP OF THE WOMEN, JUDY RESNICK, ANNA FISHER, AND SALLY RIDE, WITH THREE OF THEIR MALE ASTRONAUT COLLEAGUES, WENT TO SEATTLE TO TAKE A -- TO VISIT BOEING, WHICH WAS WORKING ON THE 747 THAT WOULD TRANSPORT THE SPACE SHUTTLE WHENEVER IT NEEDED TO MOVE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WHEN THEY WERE THERE, ONE OF THEIR BOEING CHAPERONES ASKED IF THEY WANTED TO SEE THE PLANE AND FLY THE PLANE.

AND THEY WERE THINKING IT WOULD BE THE SIMULATOR.

BUT HE SAID, "OH, NO, LET'S ACTUALLY FLY THE 747."

SO THEY GET INTO THE PLANE.

AND THE BOEING REPRESENTATIVE ASKS THE WOMEN, ONE OF THE WOMEN, IF THEY'D LIKE TO TAKE OFF AND LAND.

NOT KNOWING THAT THEY WEREN'T TRUE PILOTS.

THEY HAD JUST JOINED THE PROGRAM.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE FLYING.

DEFINITELY NOT A 747.

BUT HE THOUGHT THEY WERE PILOTS.

"YEAH, SURE, I'LL TAKE IT FOR A SPIN."

THE THREE OF THEM WOULD GO ON TO TAKE OFF AND LAND, AND THEN AT ONE POINT THE REPRESENTATIVE ASKED SALLY, "HEY, HOW MANY OTHER PLANES HAVE YOU BEEN CHECKED OUT ON?"

SHE GOES, "OH, YOU KNOW, NONE.

I'M NOT ACTUALLY A PILOT."

ONE OF THE OTHER ASTRONAUTS TOLD ME HE TURNED GHOST WHITE WHEN HE HEARD THAT.

HE REALIZED HE HAD JUST LET SOME NOVICE PILOTS FLY THE PLANE.

HE HAD NO IDEA, THEY FLEW LIKE PROS.

>> SO THERE WAS A REPORT THAT WAS FILED BY A WOMAN NAMED RUTH BATES HARRIS.

AND MOST PEOPLE WON'T KNOW SHE WAS A BLACK WOMAN WHO WAS ORIGINALLY HIRED TO RUN NASA'S KIND OF EQUAL EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITY OFFICE.

BUT SHE DID PUBLISH THIS REPORT ABOUT THE STATE KIND OF DIVERSITY IN NASA.

WHAT DID SHE FIND?

>> SHE FOUND THAT IT WAS PRETTY DISMAL AT THE TIME.

THIS WAS BEFORE THE SIX WOMEN CAME ON BOARD.

THIS WAS IN THE EARLY 1970s.

AND REALLY, SHE AND HER CO-WORKERS DID THIS REPORT UNPROMPTED.

THEY REALLY JUST WANTED TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE STATE OF THE AGENCY.

AND THERE'S A GREAT QUOTE IN THAT REPORT THAT REALLY ILLUSTRATES JUST HOW POORLY NASA HAD TRIED TO BRING WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR INTO THE PROGRAM AT THAT POINT.

I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT QUOTE OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, BUT IT WAS SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF, NASA HAS SENT THREE WOMEN INTO SPACE, TWO SPIDERS AND ONE MONKEY.

IT JUST REALLY PAINTED A GRIM PICTURE OF DIVERSITY AT THE AGENCY.

THEN ULTIMATELY AFTER THAT REPORT CAME OUT, SHE WAS FIRED.

AND CALLED A DISRUPTIVE FORCE.

NOW NASA TRIED TO BACKTRACK AND SAY IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF THE REPORT.

ULTIMATELY, THAT DID SHINE A LIGHT ON WHAT SHE HAD FOUND.

AND IT WAS GETTING TO THE POINT WHERE NASA REALLY COULDN'T HIDE FROM THIS PROBLEM ANYMORE.

THEY WERE GETTING A LOT OF QUESTIONS INTERNALLY AND EXTERNALLY ABOUT WHY THEY HADN'T BROUGHT IN WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR UP TO THAT POINT.

>> WERE THESE SIX WOMEN CONSCIOUS ON A SORT OF DAILY BASIS OF THE INCREASED SCRUTINY THAT WAS ON THEM AND HOW THE SPOTLIGHT WAS ON THEM?

BECAUSE SALLY RIDE WAS SELECTED, BUT IT COULD HAVE BEEN ANY OF THEM.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO I THINK THEY VERY MUCH KNEW HOW MUCH OF A MICROSCOPE THEY WERE UNDER WHEN THEY WERE PRESENTED TO THE PUBLIC FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME AT NASA.

YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY CAME ON BOARD, THEY WERE OFFERED UP FOR INTERVIEWS, THE ENTIRE CLASS WAS OFFERED UP FOR INTERVIEWS.

THIS WAS 35 PEOPLE THAT THE SIX WOMEN WERE A PART OF.

AND THE PRESS ONLY WANTED TO SPEAK TO THE SIX WOMEN AND THE ASTRONAUTS OF COLOR WHO HAD COME ON BOARD.

SO THEY KNEW HOW MUCH SCRUTINY THEY WERE UNDER.

AND I THINK A VERY POIGNANT QUOTE THAT SALLY RIDE GAVE WHEN SHE FIRST FLEW, BEFORE SHE FLEW TO SPACE, WAS THAT HER BIGGEST FEAR WAS SHE WAS GOING TO MESS UP.

I THINK A LOT IS LOADED IN THAT STATEMENT, WHICH IS THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE KNEW THAT SHE WOULD BE REPRESENTING NOT JUST HERSELF, BUT ALL OF WOMEN WHEN SHE WENT TO SPACE FOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND I THINK THAT'S TRUE OF ANYONE FROM AN UNDERREPRESENTED GROUP, IS THAT YOU STAND IN FOR EVERYONE ELSE THAT'S LIKE YOU.

SHE KNEW IF SHE MESSED UP, THE PRESS WERE GOING TO WRITE HEADLINES, "WOMAN MESSES UP IN SPACE."

NOT SALLY RIDE MESSES UP IN SPACE, BUT WOMAN MESSES UP IN SPACE.

FORTUNATELY, THEY DID SUCH AN AMAZING JOB AND THEY'VE REALLY HELPED TO PAVE THE WAY FOR THE WOMEN THAT CAME AFTER THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE SO ADEPT AND CAPABLE OF THEIR JOBS.

>> YOU END THE BOOK WITH THE "CHALLENGER" TRAGEDY IN 1986.

JUDY RESNICK WAS ON THAT.

WHY DID YOU THINK IT WAS IMPORTANT TO KIND OF BOOKEND THE BOOK THERE?

>> I THINK I WANTED TO GIVE JUDY A PROPER SENDOFF.

ALSO, I THINK THE "CHALLENGER" ACCIDENT REALLY SERVES AS AN END OF A CHAPTER FOR THIS ERA OF THE SPACE PROGRAM.

DURING THE EARLY DAYS OF THE SHUTTLE, IT REALLY WAS A VERY CELEBRATORY TIME.

AND THERE WAS ALSO KIND OF THIS IDEA THAT NASA COULD DO NOTHING WRONG.

AND SO AS THE SHUTTLE KEPT LAUNCHING, WE WERE ADDING ON PAYLOAD SPECIALISTS, WE WERE ADDING ON POLITICIANS TO FLIGHTS.

THEN OBVIOUSLY, WE FAMOUSLY NEW A TEACHER ON THE "CHALLENGER" FLIGHT.

AND BEFORE THAT HAPPENED, WE WERE ABOUT TO FLY A JOURNALIST.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A VERY DIFFERENT TIME BEFORE "CHALLENGER" FLEW.

AND THEN ONCE IT DID FLY, YOU KNOW, EVERYTHING CHANGED.

YOU KNOW, NASA HAD TO COMPLETELY RE-EVALUATE ITS SAFETY PROCEDURES AND ITS PROTOCOLS.

AND IT TRANSFORMED THE AGENCY INTO ITS NEW ERA, A NEW ERA FOR THE SPACE SHUTTLE.

SO I REALLY SEE THE "CHALLENGER" ACCIDENT AS THE END OF A CHAPTER.

AND THE BEGINNING OF A NEW GENERATION FOR THE SPACE PROGRAM.

>> JUMPING KIND OF FORWARD TO TODAY, THERE ARE EFFORTS UNDER WAY TO LAUNCH A MISSION THAT WOULD PUT THE FIRST WOMAN ON THE MOON.

BESIDES THE SYMBOLIC SIGNIFICANCE, WHAT DO YOU THINK NASA IS HOPING FOR WITH IT?

>> WELL, I THINK WE'RE TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, CORRECT MANY DECADES OF BEING BEHIND IN THIS AREA.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE ARTEMIS PROGRAM WHICH YOU'VE MENTIONED IS VERY UNIQUE IN THAT IT'S THE FIRST TIME NASA HAS REALLY MADE THE STATED GOAL OF SENDING A WOMAN AND A PERSON OF COLOR TO THE LUNAR SURFACE.

I DON'T THINK THEY'VE REALLY MADE THAT STATEMENT FOR ANY OTHER OF THEIR PROGRAMS.

THEY'VE NEVER DICTATED WHO THEY WERE GOING TO FLY.

THAT'S A REALLY INTERESTING EVOLUTION IN THE SPACE PROGRAM.

SOME MIGHT AGREE WITH IT, SOME MIGHT NOT, BUT IT DOES GO TO SHOW THIS IS TOP OF MIND FOR THE SPACE AGENCY.

AND YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE WE DO HAVE A BIT OF A WAY TO GO IN TERMS OF REACHING TRUE PARITY.

LESS THAN ONE-SIXTH OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE GONE TO SPACE HAVE BEEN WOMEN.

AND FOR WOMEN OF COLOR, THE STATISTICS ARE PRETTY ABHORRENT.

WE HAVE QUITE A WAYS TO GO TO CATCH UP.

AND SO I THINK IT'S REALLY QUITE INSPIRING THAT NASA IS MAKING THAT A GOAL.

I THINK IT'S ALSO AN IMPORTANT LESSON THAT RELATES BACK TO THE SIX AND THE FIRST WOMEN WHO CAME ON BOARD.

WHEN THE 1977 SELECTION PROCESS HAPPENED, YOU KNOW, THE SELECTION BOARD MADE BRINGING PEOPLE OF COLOR AND WOMEN TOP OF MIND.

THEY WERE VERY CLEAR TO -- WHEN THEY ADVERTISED THE PROGRAM THAT THEY WANTED A WIDER ARRAY OF PEOPLE TO COME ON BOARD.

AND BECAUSE THEY MADE MAY A PRIORITY, IT DICTATED HOW THEY ADVERTISED AND WHO THEY ADVERTISED TO.

AND THAT ULTIMATELY LED TO THEIR SUCCESS IN BRINGING MUCH MORE DIVERSE CREW OF ASTRONAUTS INTO THE PROGRAM.

JUST GOES TO SHOW THAT WHEN YOU MAKE IT A STATED GOAL, IT MAKES IT MUCH MORE EASIER THAT YOU WILL BE SUCCESSFUL.

>> IN A WAY, YOUR BOOK IS REALLY KIND OF LOOKING AT ALSO THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF WHAT PRODUCED THESE WOMEN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

KIND OF THE RIPPLE EFFECTS OF NOT JUST THEIR PRESENCE, BUT WHAT HAPPENS IN ACADEMIA, IN PRIVATE AND PUBLIC COMPANIES.

ARE THERE ENOUGH MENTORS WHO ARE WOMEN WHO CAN SUPPORT ANOTHER GENERATION OF YOUNG WOMEN TO BECOME ASTRONAUTS AND EVEN MUCH MORE?

>> YEAH, I WOULD SAY ONE OF THE BIGGEST THINGS THAT THE SIX WERE ABLE TO DO FOR NASA IS TO SIMPLY PAVE THE WAY FOR MORE WOMEN TO COME AFTER THEM.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MENTORS THAT ASTRONAUTS NOW HAVE.

BUT EVER SINCE THE SIX CAME ON BOARD, YOU KNOW, THEY EXPERIENCED WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO GET PREGNANT WHILE AN ASTRONAUT.

SO THEY WERE ABLE TO SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH OTHER WOMEN WHO CAME ON.

AND THEN ALSO WANTED TO GET PREGNANT.

THAT'S ULTIMATELY WHAT PIONEERS HELP WITH.

THEY MAKE THE ROAD SLIGHTLY EASIER FOR THE ONES WHO COME AFTER THEM.

I KNOW, SPEAKING WITH SOME OF THE ASTRONAUTS TODAY, THAT THEY'RE INCREDIBLY GRATEFUL FOR THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE ABLE TO HAVE THAT HISTORY OF WOMEN BEHIND THEM SO THAT THEY HAVE ALL THESE EXPERIENCES AND THEY HAVE ALL THAT SUPPORT FOR ANY OF THE PROBLEMS THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE WHEN THEY'RE IN THE FIELD.

>> NOW, WHAT HAS WRITING THIS BOOK MEANT TO YOU?

YOU'RE THE DAUGHTER OF PARENTS WHO WORKED AT NASA.

WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO TACKLE THIS TOPIC?

YOU COVER SPACE EVERY DAY.

YOU HAD FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

WHY THIS BEAT?

>> WELL, I HAVE BEEN COVERING SPACE NOW FOR NEARLY TEN YEARS.

AND I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK, BUT I NOTICED THAT A LOT OF THE BOOKS ABOUT SPACE NOWADAYS DO CENTER ON MEN.

AND IT JUST -- IT'S ILLUSTRATIVE OF THE FACT THAT IT'S STILL QUITE A MALE-DOMINATED INDUSTRY.

IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME TO FIND A STORY THAT CENTERED WOMEN IN SPACE.

IT'S BEEN VERY IMPORTANT TO ME AS A SPACE REPORTER TO FIND THE OTHER WOMEN AROUND ME.

EVEN SPACE REPORTING IS A PRETTY MALE-DOMINATED FIELD.

AS I PROGRESSED IN THIS INDUSTRY, I'VE FOUND MORE AND MORE AMAZING WOMEN WHO REPORT ON SPACE AS WELL.

AND FIND HAVING THAT CAMARADERIE WITH THEM HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST VALUABLE THINGS IN MY LIFE.

AND I IMAGINE FOR OTHER WOMEN IN THIS INDUSTRY, IT'S ALSO VALUABLE, KNOWING ABOUT THE WOMEN WHO CAME BEFORE THEM AND PAVED THAT WAY.

IT'S VALUABLE FOR ME, AND IT'S INSPIRING FOR ME TOO.

THAT'S ULTIMATELY WHAT I HOPE THIS GIVES TO EVERYONE WHO'S REALIZING THAT THEY'RE NOT ALONE THAT THERE'S OTHERS JUST LIKE THEM.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE SIX."

AUTHOR LOREN GRUSH, THANK YOU.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> AN INSPIRING TALE FOR MEN AND WOMEN AROUND THE WORLD.

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S COMING ON THE SHOW, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.