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>> Thank you for joining us for what is really an extraordinary week in St.

Louis.

We have a ton of topics.

So without further ado from me, let's meet the panelist and then get cranking.

She's the media veteran herself, Wendy Wiese.

Back from vacation, Bill McClellan from the Post Dispatch from St.

Louis magazine, the 314 podcast, and her daily newsletter, Sarah Fenske.

And from the St.

Louis American, we welcome Alvin Reid.

Well, Wendy, last week we were talking about data centers in general.

Should there be a moratorum?

St.

Charles said no to him for at least one year.

And then as soon as we were off the air, seemingly it was announced that the St.

Louis Armory uh is the target of some developers who would like to put a data center there.

Data centers, of course, these big buildings that have computer services, cooling stations, they use a lot of electricity.

They also use a lot of water.

And uh this armory is that huge brick building that's just south of 6440 near Grand.

It's where Arthur Ash and Ken Flack and Jimmy Connors used to play tennis and Tina Turner used to perform there.

Do you think that should be turned this historic building should be turned into a data center?

I know that this is going to make me very unpopular with my tablemate over here, but uh I I do and not only that, the moratorum uh was sort of pushed off the table and an executive order was brought to the table.

So they both have sort of the same, you know, the same result in mind, which is making sure Megan Green uh wants to make sure that uh all of the surrounding businesses and residents have enough time to uh to discuss this issue and to have those those public input opportunities.

I don't want to see us lose the use of the armory.

I think its days in terms of entertainment I think is an entertainment venue when you think of the foundry and how successful it's been just down the just down the highway.

I I don't think that's going to work.

Um but I would be I would don't hit me too hard.

I would I would be okay with using it as as a data center assuming that we can cross the tees and dot the eyes with uh St.

Louis University.

>> Okay.

Okay.

I've been jumping at the bit here.

Wendy, you're killing me.

Um, you know, this is the heart of the city right here and we have the foundry that is so successful and we're saying, "Okay, we're going to take this historic building and we're going to put a 1.5 billion dollar data center in there.

This is bigger than the one that was proposed in St.

Charles."

And basically, you're going to knock it offline from being any purpose that would add vibrancy, that would get people into the heart of the city, that would be a use that might draw tourists or other visitors.

You're basically saying we're going to have like six guys kind of monitoring these giant machines and using electricity.

It seems like the worst possible place for this.

>> Well, on the other hand, sir, that we don't want that building to be an abandoned building.

I I don't know.

I I I don't know what you What would you put in it?

>> Pickle ball.

>> Okay.

>> How would you I'm uh see I'm not totally anti uh data center, but not there.

We got to use that for an entertainment purpose.

I think just because these last folks failed because they failed at a lot of things apparently.

That doesn't mean that the concept of it being some kind of hub of entertainment doesn't work.

And I would rather uh see it as that.

And Charlie, it's Kirkwood's own Ken Flock, by the way.

>> Oh yeah, absolutely.

Did he win Wimbledon?

I It doubles.

>> Doubles.

I know he won doubles.

>> That's right.

Well, now we can talk about the important issue.

No, in all seriousness, It's a historic building.

It was designed by Albert Osberg, who also did Homer G. Phillips and the Soulard Market.

And so, and and when you take a look at it's just a beautiful thing that and and the Brookline Green Light uh the Brook Brickline Greenway is going to go right by there.

So, people will be able to pedal on their bike and take a look at Oh, look.

There's a big building that does nothing.

Well, back if you owned the foundry, would you want that to be a >> They shouldn't have any say.

They should not have any I mean it could be annexed if you all dash the dreams that I have of the data center.

Um it I suppose it could be you could somehow maybe annex it as part of the foundry just a little bit down the but I yeah I used to go to softball games back there or back then back in the 70s at the armory.

>> This this data center is going to be so big.

It won't just be the armory.

They also want to build a giant building in an adjacent vacant lot.

And I'm all for getting rid of vacant lots.

I'm all for not having vacant buildings, but I think this is absolutely the wrong use.

And what I worry about, they'll get locked in for some multi-year contract and it'll end up empty, you know, after this AI bubble burst.

>> Well, Sarah, uh, while we're talking about the city of St.

Lewis and Development.

It was announced this week by the mayor and Talby Roach, the uh I think CEO of Bystate, which operates Metroink, that there will not be a Metroink extension that goes from north to south.

Originally, it was going to go from North County to south county.

Then they shortened it to maybe Fairgrounds Park to Chateau.

Well, right now, they don't feel they get the federal dollars for it.

And at a billion dollars, those there's no way they could pay for it locally.

So, they're thinking about buses.

You've been on this program before saying, "Why not have buses?"

Yeah, I think buses are the best use of this money.

I think the writing has been on the wall ever since Donald Trump got elected, ever since Cara Spencer got elected.

He doesn't want to pay for these type of projects.

She thought this was a bad use.

If you look at the cost per mile of what this light rail line had been and especially in terms of the few the poultry people who would be trying to get from this corridor to that corridor, it never made any sense.

This is a chance to go back to the drawing board and do something that does bus rapid transit.

>> Well, Charlie, we talk all the time, where are the people going?

They're going west.

I've said all along, if you run a Metrolink line from east to west, if you build it, they will come.

And you go to the municipalities along the way.

You stop off in Webster and say like, "Hey, you got this little quaint little train station right here.

What if the Metro Link stopped here?

Kirkwood's got a train station.

Amtrak stops there."

You build it a stop at a time and just given the opportunity.

You don't have to drive.

You don't have to park.

All you got to do is get on, ride down, go to the ball game, do this, do that.

I still think it would work east west, but we never consider that.

>> Well, it might have worked at one time, Alvin.

I think you have a good point.

But now these things have become so prohibitively expensive.

You know, I agree with you, Sarah, that this idea of that five or seven, eight mile thing is is ridiculous.

But I I don't think we can afford to build one going west in the middle of Highway 40.

>> But could you not?

each municipality along the way if you were going to have a stop.

You've got some transportation funding coming to your municipality just like St.

Louis does.

Could you give some of that money to this project?

And it's bringing shoppers.

It's bringing recreation.

It's bringing >> They're not going to want these people coming from the city.

This is going to be like what happened when they wanted to take it out to St.

Charles.

>> No, I'm not talking about St.

Charles.

Ultimately St.

Charles County, you think West County is different.

Yes.

Yes.

And ultimately St.

Charleston to get in just like you know what in it's Centerville and parts west on the orange line in the Washington DC area wanted no part of it.

It stopped in Vienna Virginia 10 years later begging to get in on what part of the world is northern Virginia is growing and St.

Louis is not the west and and and in Wville and all of those areas.

Oh, no.

No.

And they definitely have traffic up there.

But when you take a look at the history of Metroink, which opened in June of 1994, right?

Uh what's happened to downtown since?

What's happened to Clayton since?

Clayton used to have people on the sidewalks.

It was vibrant.

Not anymore.

>> We could use the uh Armory as a big parking lot.

>> No, actually the Harve should be at Chesterfield Mall.

>> I mean, look, the people that are buying big houses, they don't want to take public transit for the most part.

They're not working downtown.

The jobs are all over the place right now.

And these are not public transit users.

>> But Sarah, if you could get from, let's say, Chesterfield to Kirkwood, forget downtown.

People would find where in find where they wanted to stop, shop, do stuff like that.

>> Well, let me ask you about another form of transportation, uh, aircraft.

Alvin Reed, uh, it was announced by Boeing this week that they're going to send some of the upgrade work on the FA18 Super Hornet fighter jet from St.

Louis, Berkeley to be exact, to either Florida or Texas, it's either going to be Jacksonville or San Antonio.

Uh, was this a sign that Boeing, which is now experiencing the eighth week of a strike with the machinist and aerospace workers and which has gotten some flak from local politicians in recent years, that maybe it's getting a little fatigued with the St.

Louis area?

>> Well, I mean, I I'm all for the workers.

You know, if you feel that you got a strike, then you strike.

And people go out strike in Seattle.

But we're not the only people that have had issues with Boeing.

We're just having ours right now.

Now, as I said, I've been always been doubtful that this Donald Trump paper plane is going to get built in the St.

Louis area.

I just have my doubts about that.

I don't think Boeing is as tired of St.

Louis as Boeing is trying to, you know, make a profit.

And I've been to Jacksonville, okay?

Trust me, the workers down there are making less than the ones are in St.

Louis, union or not.

So, they'll save money doing that.

So, I don't think they got a thumb on St.

Louis.

I just think they're trying to go someplace where it's cheaper to do the thing.

>> Well, and there are still going to be FA18 jobs here.

Oh, yeah.

In St.

Louis, even if they do move some of them to Florida or Texas, I just think that I I think that this was a a bad time for a strike.

uh in terms of and I'm I'm a union member myself.

So, uh I I I usually wouldn't say that, but I just think Boeing has had a very difficult decade and I I think that this was I think this was just not what >> I suspect they would have done it anyway when when I I don't really think this is uh because of the strike.

I I think Alvin has a good point.

They're looking to save money and I I think the work I'm with you, Alvin.

I'm with the workers on on their complaints against Boeing.

>> Except the workers are divided because their leadership keeps recommending that they ratify these contracts and twice they have it.

I I I kind of wonder if the workers are really upset with the two-tier system that goes back to 2014 and they don't like the guy sitting next to him making so much money.

>> Well, I mean that's part of it, but also I this this thing where the, you know, leadership of the union wants to get the deal done but the workers don't.

Once again, I you know, that's unbelievable.

That's unbelievable.

All for one and one for all and leadership is not with us, then you need to change leadership.

>> Well, they're getting a what a 38% increase.

>> I look I I get it.

And you look at those numbers, you say, >> it's not Donnybrook money, but >> I know that's one of those you look at the money, right?

You say, >> I'm with the workers, too.

It's just a very difficult time.

And I I don't like the fact that our leaders keep badmouthing Boeing.

uh Josh Hawley from the well of the Senate and then you have Cy Bush, the former congresswoman.

Every chance she got, she badmouththed it.

And then we have the president of the board of alderman who's protesting against Boeing, she gets arrested or something.

I mean, how many local leaders do we need to badmouth Boeing before Boeing?

>> I'm not a big fan of our local leaders, but I I don't think this is what's driving Boeing's decision either.

I don't think if Megan Green liked bowling that they wouldn't be sending >> I just want to make sure that I locate my microphone and if the president of the United States is listening to Donnie Brook Mr.

Brennan was being ironic Mr.

president really making >> Wendy, let me ask you.

Um, I thought it was going to end last week when we talked about a teacher in the Duncan school district, Rachel Taylor, who uh lost her job after something she posted.

All right, it didn't end there.

Turns out there's uh Mary Adams from the Columbia High School in Illinois and uh Lenel Gilpin from North Point Middle School in the Wentzville School District.

Both of them, well, one is on leave, the other one was suspended and then forced to resign and over rather innocuous posts on social media.

Uh it they they were not on company time.

They were not on campus.

They were not acting in the official position as a teacher.

Do we still live in America?

We we do still live in America, but we we live in an America where, as I said last week, the you know, the the freedom of speech also is wrapped in responsibility.

you know, if if your employer or if employers uh that are, you know, in the same business that you're in are are firing people for posting on social media anything having to do with the assassination of a 31-year-old political activist, then read the room, you know, read the room and just know that there is a possibility.

And I don't ever want to make it sound like I'm taking anybody's job, you know, haphazardly or laxidasically.

And I think it's terrible that they're losing their jobs, but that's the cost of freedom of speech at this particular time.

If you work for a school district, >> I think what's going on here is a lot scarier because I think these employers are terrified of catching the attention of the federal government.

So I think this does go back to the first amendment because I think Trump has made this idea that if you're not properly mourning Charlie Kirk that your employer could be in trouble.

You know put out this guidance right after Vice President Vance made some comments about well you know if university employees are are talking about uh Charlie Kirk's death like they're glad about it.

Well maybe those universities should lose their funding.

Well, naturally, Munch Choy the next day sent out this directive saying, "Hey, we don't want you to say anything that could cause turmoil in the workplace.

It's not about turmoil in the workplace.

It's about the federal government coming after these companies."

>> And and it it's completely free speech.

I mean, Charlie Kirk, you know, I knew very little about him until he was killed, but Charlie Kirk uh was free to criticize Dr.

Martin Luther King.

>> Sure.

>> And no one said take him off the air.

And so if someone wants to criticize Charlie Kirk, I I just don't see where uh that person should lose their job.

I'm with you, Wendy, on you know, people have to be careful.

These are perilous times, but nobody should lose their job for >> I agree.

And I don't think we're saying like >> these people should be fired for doing it.

I'm just saying like you have to be wary of what is going on.

Now, case in point here, I think if especially the the the I guess the first woman we talked about who basically had some like biblical reference.

If she had written that as a letter to the editor to the St.

Louis Post Dispatch and it was, you know, published as like where the letters to the editor are, I don't think she would have got fired.

It's the social media aspect of it.

And that's what I'm telling people like, look, that is dynamite.

Leave it alone.

just leave it alone.

I know people get caught up in it and say, "I can't believe they said this."

I Right.

And they may be just just crazy thoughts that you feel like you need to respond to.

Stay off of it.

Stay silent on it.

Leave it alone.

>> But but uh to to be precise, Lenel Gilpin wrote that uh the Lord does not look kindly upon people who are misogynistic uh racist or homophobic.

Yes.

And she got fired for that.

She didn't mention Kirk by name.

The other woman, uh, Mary Adams, apparently truncated his quote, and some people found that objectionable.

>> And I just think in both of those cases, whether it was social media or the Post Dispatch or >> wherever, it's doesn't seem like a firing offense.

>> I agree with you.

But just here what I'm saying is it seems like I think you all agree at least how you look that yeah if that had just been a simple letter to the editor especially back in the days when you actually wrote letters to the editor you know that um they would have lost their jobs.

I think they lost their jobs because it's social media.

I think you do make a really good point here and I hadn't thought of it that way, but it it does feel like the temperature is so hot online and at the same time you feel like you're part of this giant ocean where everyone's commenting and you're having this conversation and really somebody can just screen grab what you say and like send it viral even when again as you say it's super innocuous.

So, social media is the problem, but I also think we should all take a step back and employers should stop coming after people this hard for what is talked to some young friends and said, >> uh, you know, this is not something that these are perilous times and the companies are scared to death and you put something on social media, just don't do it.

And and if if if he was if he was polarizing and it's a very confusing situation because there's plenty of evidence out there to suggest that he you know some of the things that he was saying had been perhaps misconstrued or overemphasized or it depends on you know how you're receiving it or which prism you're you're looking through.

But at no time in my life have we ever rejoiced in an assassination.

And that is what is happening in social media in this white hot.

And that should make school districts.

>> Well, people are getting in trouble for not rejoicing, just not mourning.

I mean, making a comment that the ones I've seen, people aren't rejoicing.

There might be ironic about he liked, you know, was against gun control, but they're not rejoicing.

>> There's been, but you admit that there has been plenty of That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, there's plenty of that.

>> Why?

If anybody is rejoicing, if anybody is just like thinking, saying that he should be, you know, a saint.

Now, what does it matter if it's on that nonsense that we call social media?

I mean, just because somebody, oh, it's on the X and it's on this and it's under that.

It has no credence until we make it say it does.

This is the part that I don't understand.

Just well, it it was J. D. Vance, the vice president, who said, you know, kind of turn in people and turn in their employers.

Let's go after them if they're not highly respectful for Charlie Kirk.

And so people went out and they started outing people.

Even on a private Facebook page, someone turned uh as a traitor or something in >> That's right.

out of Eastern Europe.

authoritarianism turning in people.

>> Okay.

All right.

Okay.

We got to move on.

Bill, we're going to go to you on our next topic.

But um >> before we get to the topic, you started this program in 1987 with Mark Vitter.

>> I did.

>> Who worked on this program till about 2001, one of the founders of Donny Brook.

Well, people watching the show didn't know at the time that he was going through a lot of struggles and challenges at home with his son.

and his son Leland has just written a book about it and he's going to talk about it Saturday night at the St.

Charles City County Library.

So for longtime Donny Brook Donny Brook viewers, if you want to prize yourself, that's Saturday night in St.

Charles and a worthwhile read for sure.

>> Yeah, I think so too.

Uh I want to ask you, Bill, about the NGA, the National Geospatial Agency, which is moving it 3,000 employees from South St.

Louis to North St.

Louis and I believe the opening is tomorrow.

There was a front page story in your paper that there's no economic rebound in North St.

Louis yet because of the NGA, even though it was heralded as a major major development that would really bring new life to that area.

What do you think?

>> Oh, I don't think it'll bring new life to that area.

If it does, it won't be good for the people who live there now.

I mean, there might be gentrification and uh the people who there now will get pushed out and some developer will put up expensive homes and it'll be much like the fight downtown between the wellto-do loft dwellers and the homeless who used to be there.

I mean, I don't think any good is going to come to the neighborhoods around the NGA.

I wish I did, but I don't see how it will happen.

I think it would have been cool if they made all 3,000 people like march from the old place to the new place.

I thought that'd be cool, you know.

But, uh, I'm with Bill also, you know, when you go to Jefferson and Cass, all right, and just in the surrounding neighborhood around there, your first thought is, boy, it's going to turn this place around, you're just going to think like, you know, oh, okay.

And people said that from day one.

So this is just, you know, the the fruition of what was already known that it's really not going to have that big an impact unless you bulldoze the entire area around it and start a new and I'm not wanting that to be done, but I think that's what would have to be done.

>> Let's let's wait until we open the doors, >> right?

No, we poo poo on things long before we >> Yeah.

I just I mean things could change.

Things could actually turn out in a positive way.

>> I don't know.

I'm really skeptical.

I'm actually skeptical that we're even going to see gentrification around this thing.

It is a bunker.

It's by design a bunker.

And there's supposed to be some sort of like not a moat, but like a a buffer zone between them and and other development.

Yeah.

I don't know why I had that in my head, but it just doesn't seem like the kind of development that is likely to spur a lot of like office workers on the street hanging out shopping at cute little boutiques.

They're going to just be driving in.

They're going to be like, "All right, I'll eat my lunch at my desk like people do in the year 2025, and then at the end of the day, I'm going to drive out of here.

I don't see how this helps the neighborhood."

>> Yeah.

I I don't mean to make light of it.

I wish it was going to help, but it's just going to make the lines at Crown Candy impossible, but most seriously, I hope.

Let's hope so.

Let's hope so.

you know, uh the the one aspect of it that I found uh incredulous and it's true uh the employees there uh don't have to pay the earnings tax or rather the earnings tax that most people who work in the city of St.

Louis pay 1% by the employer 1% by the worker usually goes to the city of St.

Louis it's going to go back to the NGA which is the federal government so the city of St.

Louis is subsidizing this.

>> Yeah.

>> So, that's bad.

But, I guess the only thing that would be worse, I know they were talking about moving this thing to like the corn fields of Illinois.

I'm glad they didn't do that.

Like, this is good for Missouri that these are staying here, even though maybe not so great for the city.

>> H maybe.

Alvin, what about a million people uh not showing up at Busch Stadium?

I think after the past two years, attendance is down by a cool million.

>> I you know, it was funny that we've talked about Oh, man.

you know, is it going to the game?

The game until I read that story and saw that number, I'm like a million people.

That got my attention.

Now, I don't own the Cardinals, but I would be thinking to myself like, okay, we heard you loud and clear.

We got to do better.

Now, part of doing better is how do we get younger people?

How do we get more diverse?

When I go to ball game, I've gone all over the country.

Bush Stadium is still one of the least diverse places to watch a ball game that I've gone to in the country.

How do we change that?

How do we bring new fans into the game?

And I don't mean they have to be 11 and 12 years old.

>> You gota win.

Yeah.

Well, that would help.

But also, what do we what do we do?

What what do people want other >> than the St.

Louis Cardinals and other places have come to grips with?

>> Yeah.

A lot of people though have been discussing the fact that in in a generational sense >> the you know the the the caboose is visible from from where we're sitting that that kids just aren't as they're not as rabid about America's pastime as as they used to be.

And you said the same thing about your daughters, right?

>> Yeah.

No, they're just that they're not interested in baseball because it's not on TV in our house and it's because we're not going to pay $2,000 a year for a package to watch it.

I think they've sort of cut their own fan base >> and and kids aren't playing it.

I mean, there's still with teams and adults in charge and everything, but you you go to playgrounds and you don't see kids out there playing games even on the hill where it used where Yogi Bear and Garageola were at Barrett Park.

You don't see kids playing ball.

>> Sarah, with 30 seconds to go did uh to go, did Chris Zimmerman of the Blues take a shot at the Cardinals this week?

>> He would certainly say he didn't.

However, everyone in that that media event was like, "Whoa."

He said, "People just can't wait for hockey.

They can't wait to see some success."

And it's like, "Oh, in contrast to what, Chris?"

>> He said he said, "People are desperate for success, any kind."

So, I'm thinking like, was he talking to the mayor and like he he was like, I looked at Did anybody say shots fired?

I mean, >> and people still do write letters, Alvin, and we're going to go to those right now.

The time has come to have at least two women on every Donny Brook.

Wendy's amazing, but she must be tired of speaking for half the population.

Comments Sarah Wendy and from Jim Merkel of Bevo Mill, author Jim Merkel.

We also heard from Sue Casau of South City.

How much space does a data center need?

Retrofitting has to be less expensive than new construction.

The AT&T building sits with a quarter million square feet of space that is already fitted for water, electricity, climate control, parking.

Why shouldn't this kind of adaptive reuse be welcome?

Thank you, Miss Casso.

And Jerry Beckman writes, "Really, Charlie?

Bob Clark is not a civic treasure.

Being good at one thing does not make one good at everything."

Well, Jerry, go check out the library in the county.

the Clark family branch care of 9PBS.

You can write these letters 63108.

Don't forget those emails.

Donnybrookpbs.org and on social media use donnybrookst.

Call the nine line, won't you?

At 31451294.

And we hope you listen to us on your favorite podcast source.

Don't forget our program, Last Call, found on the Nine PBS YouTube channel.

We're going to talk about golf golf carts in the city of St.

Louis, should they be regulated and who exactly should be able to march in the homecoming parade this weekend at Mizzou?

That and more.

We'll see you next week at this time.

Thanks.

Donnybrook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.