>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," STATESMEN AND WOMEN-- OR TANTRUMMING TODDLERS?

YOU BE THE JUDGE.

AS WE JUST BARELY BACK AWAY FROM THE BRINK OF YET ANOTHER SHUTDOWN, HEAD TOWARD A DEBT CEILING CATASTROPHE AND GET MORE DRAMATIC IN-FIGHTING OVER HUMAN AND PHYSICAL INFRASTRUCTURE BILLS THAN AN EPISODE OF "REAL HOUSEWIVES."

FORMER CONGRESSMAN MICHAEL CAPUANO AND "WASHINGTON POST" WHITE HOUSE REPORTER ANNIE LINSKEY JOIN ME ON ALL THIS.

AND, THE PAINFULLY PARTISAN OBSTACLE JUST PUT IN THE PATH OF RACHAEL ROLLINS ON THE ROAD TO BECOMING THE NEXT U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS.

THEN LATER, "POST" COLUMNIST AND LONGTIME REPUBLICAN-TURNED INDEPENDENT BIDEN VOTER, JENNIFER RUBIN WILL BE HERE TO TALK ABOUT HER NEW BOOK: "RESISTANCE: HOW WOMEN SAVED DEMOCRACY FROM DONALD TRUMP."

AND, FINALLY, MY THOUGHTS ON THE MANY REVELATIONS FROM THE TRUMP PRESS SECRETARY WHO NEVER SPOKE WHILE IN OFFICE, BUT IS SPEAKING BIGLY RIGHT NOW, STEPHANIE GRISHAM.

>> Braude: IT FEELS ALMOST ROUTINE AT THIS POINT: REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS IN A PERENNIAL STALEMATE ABOUT PRETTY MUCH EVERY ASPECT OF GOVERNING, AND THE SEMI-REGULAR THREAT OF A GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN, HAS BECOME AS PREDICTABLE AS IT IS RECKLESS.

BUT THIS TIME, I'D ARGUE, IT'S WORSE THAN EVER.

SO WHILE LAWMAKERS ARE PATTING THEMSELVES ON THE BACK ON, THIS ALL COMES ON TOP OF NEXT MONTH'S POSSIBLE CATASTROPHE THIS ALL COMES ON TOP OF NEXT MONTH'S POSSIBLE CATASTROPHE, DEFAULTING ON OUR DEBT FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER.

AND SO FAR, MOST REPUBLICANS ARE IN NO HURRY TO DEAL WITH THAT, THE CONSEQUENCES OF WHICH TREASURY SECRETARY JANET YELLEN LAID OUT TODAY: >> THE FULL FAITH AND CREDIT OF THE UNITED STATES WOULD BE IMPAIRED AND OUR COUNTRY WOULD LIKELY FACE A FINANCIAL CRISIS AND ECONOMIC RECESSION.

>> Jordan: SAY GOODBYE TO YOUR 401K!

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

THERE'S ALSO THE ONGOING INFRASTRUCTURE AND SPENDING SAGA, WHICH NOT EVEN DEMOCRATS CAN AGREE ON.

IT STARTED AS A MASSIVE PUSH FROM THE WHITE HOUSE TO PASS A BILL ON BOTH PHYSICAL INFRASTRUCTURE-- ROADS-AND-BRIDGES STUFF-- AND WHAT THEY CALLED "HUMAN INFRASTRUCTURE," INCLUDING POLICIES TO MAKE CHILDCARE AND COLLEGE MORE AFFORDABLE, FINALLY ADDRESS THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

THOSE KIND OF RELATIVELY IMPORTANT MATTERS.

BUT WHEN THEY COULDN'T GET REPUBLICANS ON BOARD, THAT MORPHED INTO TWO DIFFERENT BILLS, THE PHYSICAL STUFF, WHICH REPUBLICANS SUPPORT, OR SUPPORTED, AND EVERYTHING ELSE, WHICH DEMOCRATS WERE HOPING TO PASS THROUGH A RECONCILIATION PROCESS THAT WOULD LET THEM BYPASS THE G.O.P.

THAT IS, THEY COULD IF THEY HAD ENOUGH SUPPORT IN THEIR OWN PARTY.

BUT SOME DEMOCRATS ARE TAKING ISSUE WITH THE COST OF THE SECOND PACKAGE, $3.5 TRILLION.

AND NOW, OTHERS ARE THREATENING TO PULL THEIR SUPPORT ON THE FIRST BILL UNTIL THE LARGER ONE IS PASSED.

YOU STILL WITH ME?

AND SINCE WE'RE NOT COMING TO YOU LIVE RIGHT NOW, A THOUSAND OTHER PROVERBIAL BACKSTABBINGS MAY HAVE TAKEN PLACE BETWEEN WHEN WE'RE TAPING AND WHEN YOU SEE THIS.

IN SHORT, NBC'S CHUCK TODD MAY HAVE PUT IT BEST WHEN HE TALKED WITH US ABOUT THIS ON "BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO" EARLIER TODAY.

>> NONE OF US IN OUR OWN HOUSEHOLDS WOULD ALLOW A SITUATION TO ESCALATE LIKE THIS, IN OUR OWN FAMILIES.

WHETHER IT'S THE, THE ABSURDITY OF THE REPUBLICANS REFUSING TO GOVERN, INDEFINITELY-- OR, THE FACT THAT YOU CAN'T GET BERNIE SANDERS, JOE MANCHIN, AND KYRSTEN SINEMA, PRAMILA JAYAPAL IN A SINGLE ROOM TO LIKE, DISCUSS THINGS.

THERE'S SORT OF TWO WAYS TO LOOK AT OUR CURRENT POLITICAL DIVIDE IN THIS COUNTRY.

THERE'S THE POLITICAL DIVIDE BETWEEN DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS, OR THERE'S THE POLITICAL DIVIDE BETWEEN DEMOCRACY AND TRUMPISM.

AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE LARGER, LARGER PICTURE, WHICH IS: WHAT'S THE BEST WAY, THE FASTEST WAY, TO GET TRUMPISM BACK INTO OUR LIVES?

TOTAL DYSFUNCTION OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

>> Braude: JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS ARE FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN MICHAEL CAPUANO, NOW A PUBLIC AFFAIRS DIRECTOR AT FOLEY & LARDNER LLP, AND "WASHINGTON POST" WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, ANNIE LINSKEY.

ANNIE AN CONGRESSMAN, GOOD TO STEE YOU BOTH, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> CONGRESSMAN, COULD I START WITH YOU.

20 YEARS IN CONGRESS.

THIS LEVEL OF REPUBLICAN ON STRUKSZISM AND DEMOCRATIC INTERPARTY DISFUNCTION, TYPICAL OR IS THIS A HIGH WATER, I GUESS A LOW WATERMARK.

>> I HAVE BEEN SAYING IT FOR YEARS TRK IS GOING TO GET BEFORE IT GETS BETTER, IT IS CONTINUING TO GET WORSE.

I WOULDN'T CALL IT A HIGH WATERMARK, I WOULD CALL IT A LOW WATERMARK.

THIS IS HORRENDOUS.

AND THIS IS THE POLITICS OF EXTREMISM THAT STARTED IN THE FAR RIGHT AND IS NOW BLED INTO THE LEFT.

IT IS JUST ABSOLUTISM GONE CRAZY.

AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, ANTIGOVERNMENTAL.

ANTI-COMMUNITY ORIENTED, NOT BECAUSE I AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER BUT BECAUSE COMPROMISE IS AN ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL FEATURE OF LIFE AND POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT ARE NO EXCEPTION.

>> Braude: ANNIE, DO YOU SHARE THE CONGRESSMAN'S ANALYSIS?

>> YEAH, I MEAN I THINK THAT IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YOU ARE SEEING THE KIND OF HARDBALL POLITICS THAT WE SAW FOR YEARS ON THE RIGHT BEGIN TO SEEP INTO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

AND WITH THIS KIND OF NOTION OF MASSIVE STALEMATE RIGHT NOW.

I AM AT THE "WASHINGTON POST" OFFICES RIGHT NOW AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN SEE BEHIND ME BUT HAVE I A HAM SANDWICH ON MY DESK BECAUSE WE MIGHT BE GOING BACK OVER TO THE WHITE HOUSE PRETTY SOON.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THOSE DAYS, THERE IS SO MUCH IN FLUX.

BUT YOU KNOW, TO THE CONGRESSMAN'S POINT, IT IS NOT NECESSARY.

THESE THINGS DON'T NEED TO BE IN AS MUCH FLUX AS THEY ARE AT THIS MOMENT.

>> ANNIE, WHY IS IT SO HARD TO SELL THIS TO DEMOCRATS, VIRTUALLY EVERY ALMOST IN THIS 3.5 BILLION DOLLAR PACKAGE IS WILDLY POPULAR WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

WHY CAN'T THEY UNITE LIKE MITCH McCONNELL IS ABLE TO UNITE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE WHEN HE NEEDS TO, ANNIE?

>> WELL, I MEAN, CERTAINLY GOVERNING IS HARDER.

McCONNELL HAD QUITE A LOT OF TROUBLE KEEPING HIS CUCUS TOGETHER WHEN REPUBLICANS WERE IN CHARGE.

SO I MINE THAT IS A FUNCTION OF BEING IN CHARGE.

BUT LOOK, I MEAN THE LIBERAL WING OF THE PARTY FEELS LIKE THEY HAVE A TREMENDOUS AM OF ENERGY.

THAT ENERGY REALLY HAS NOT BEEN REFLECTED IN THE ELECTIONS, AT LEAST NATIONALLY.

BUT THEY STILL, THEY HAVE AN-- THEY FEEL THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN, THEY HAVE MADE COMPROMISES AND THEY HAVE BEEN LEFT BEHIND AND THEY DON'T, YOU KNOW, THEY FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE THIS INSTANCE NOW WHERE THEY CAN JUST HOLD ON.

AND GET EVERYTHING.

AND THEY WANT THE ENTIRE LOAF RATHER THAN HALF THE LOAF OR THREE QUARTERS OF THE LOAF.

>> Braude: MIKE CAPUANO, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU REMEMBER JIMMY KIMMEL, 7 OR 8 YEARS AGO SAYING THE PUBLIC DOESN'T LIKE OBAMACARE BUT THEY LIKE WHAT IS IN IT.

HE WENT ON TO SAY SORT OF THE OPPOSITE OF A McNUGGET.

I AGREE WITH THAT COMPLETELY.

AND THE CONCLUSION THAT I AM LEAD TO, IN ADDITION TO WHAT ANNIE SAID A MINUTE AGO IS THE DEMOCRATS HAVE DONE AN ABYSMAL JOB OF SELLING WHAT IS IN THIS PACKAGE.

YOU COULD STOP ANYBODY ON THE STREET AN ALMOST ANYBODY CAN SAY I THINK IT'S 3.5 TRILLION.

BUT IF YOU ASK THEM WHAT IS IN IT, I'M NOT SURE ANYBODY COULD IDENTIFY ANYTHING.

>> WELL, BUT THAT'S ALWAYS THE CASE WHEN YOU GET THESE BIG BILLS.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY COULD HAVE TOLD YOU WHAT WAS IN THE SOCIAL SECURITY PACKAGE IN THE 1930S.

SO THAT IS NOT SURPRISING TO ME.

TO ME, THE PROBLEM IS NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE HOLD THEIR POLITICIANS ACCOUNTABLE IN PRIMARIES.

I MEAN I KNOW EVERYBODY WANTS TO VOTE IN THE FINAL ELECTION OF THE PRESIDENTIAL YEAR BUT TOO FEW PEOPLE VOTE IN PRIMARIES LEAVING BOTH PARTIES TOO MANY OPPORTUNITIES TO ELECT EXTREMISTS AS THEIR NOMINEES.

AND DONALD TRUMP BEING, IN MY OPINION, THE EPITOME OF THAT EXAMPLE.

BUT DEMOCRATS HAVE DONE THE SAME THING.

AGAIN, COMPROMISE HAS BECOME A SWEAR WORD.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY.

BUT IT HAS.

AND I LAUGH WHEN SOMEONE, JIM, YOU AND I HAVE KNOWN EACH OTHER A LONG TIME.

WE'RE BOTH LIBERALS, NO MATTER HOW YOU DEFINE THAT TERM.

I LAUGH WHEN PEOPLE SAY THERE WAS NO EXPANSION.

WE DID OBAMACARE, THAT WAS AN INCREDIBLY LIBERAL PROGRAM.

WE HAVE DONE A LOT OF HOUSING THINGS.

CAN WE DO MORE?

OF COURSE WE CAN DO MORE.

WE CAN ALWAYS DO MORE.

BUT TO SAY WE HAVEN'T MADE PROGRESS IS JUST DENYING HISTORY.

JUST DENYING FACTS.

>> Braude: SO MIKE CAPUANO, SPEAKING OF LIBERAL, YOU WERE PART OF PROGRESSIVE CAUCUS.

AND ONE OF THE KEY ISSUES TODAY IS DOES THE PROGRESSIVE CAUCUS IN THE HOUSE VOTE AGAINST A BILL THAT THEY SUPPORT BECAUSE THEY THINK IF THEY VOTE AGAINST IT, THAT WILL CONTINUE TO GIVE THEM LEVERAGE OVER THE HOLDOUTS ON THE BIG PACKAGE.

WOULD YOU HAVE VOTED AGAINST IT?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

>> Braude: WHY?

>> WHY?

BECAUSE AGAIN, IT IS THE POLITICS OF THE POSSIBLE, NOT THE POLITICS OF EVERYTHING MIKE CAPUANO WANT, IF THAT IS THE CASE I WOULD HAVE VOTED AGAINST OBAMACARE BECAUSE I'M A MEDICARE FOR ALL GUY.

BUT PROGRESS IS PROGRESS.

SO I ABSOLUTELY WOULD NOT VOTE AGAINST EITHER ONE OF THESE BILLS.

AND I WOULD TAKE WHATEVER I COULD GET AND GET RIGHT TO WORK THE VERY NEXT DAY TRYING TO GET ALL.

FOR PEOPLE THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT, I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE EVER BEEN TO A LITTLE LEAGUE MEETING, NEVER MIND A MEETING OF ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL.

YOU GET WHAT YOU CAN GET.

AND YOU KNOW, AND YOU MAKE PROGRESS THAT WAY.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, ANNIE, LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR USUAL SITUATION TODAY, THE WHITE HOUSE.

DO THEY BELIEVE AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHENEVER THAT IS, THAT ONE OR TWO DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE ARE NOT WILLING TO SINK THE CENTRAL AGENDA OF A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT WITH A MID YEAR ELECTION.

>> IT IS FUNNY I GOT BACK FROM THE WHITE HOUSE BRIEFING WHERE JEN PSAKI WAS ASKED THAT QUESTION 18 DIFFERENT TIMES, WAYS, AND IMAIF ESSENTIALLY THE SAME ANSWER.

I MEAN THEY ARE REMAINING OPTIMISTIC.

YOU MOW, WITH HE HAVE THIS POSSIBILITY OF A PRESIDENTIAL ADDRESS OF SOME TYPE THIS EVENING.

YOU KNOW, THEY SEEM TO THINK THAT THEY HAVE AN OPTIMISTIC POSTURE.

BUT THAT IS JOE BIDEN'S PERSONALITY.

AND THAT IS THE POSTURE THAT HE OFTEN PRESENTS.

EVEN WHEN THINGS ARE GOING QUITE BADLY BEHIND THE SCENES.

SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE CAN REALLY GLEEN THAT MUCH FROM THEIR POS TIRE RIGHT NOW.

BUT LOOK, I MEAN THIS IS CLEARLY, THEY DIDN'T WANT IT TO BE THIS KIND OF NAIL BITING THIS LATE BUT THE THING TO TRER IS THESE, SOME OF THESE ARE KIND OF, I THINK 6 AS FALSE DEADLINES AND SOME ARE MORE REAL DEADLINES.

YOU KNOW, IF THERE IS A VOTE TONIGHT AND A VOTE FAILS, IT IS ENTIRELY POSSIBLE THAT THIS COULD COME BACK.

BUT YOU HAVE OTHER THINGS ON THE HORIZON LIKE THE DEBT LIMBIT AND THAT IS SOMETHING WHERE THAT IS A MUCH MORE REAL DEADLINE THAT COULD HAVE SIGNIFICANT CONSEQUENCES IF THEY ARE UNABLE TO ADDRESS IT.

>> Braude: YEAH, MIKE CAPUANO, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE POTENTIAL DEBT DEFAULT AND USING THE WORD AS ANNIE LINSKY KSH-- LINSKEY DID A MINUTE AGO, THIS DEBT LIMIT THING IS JUST AN ARTIFICIAL, THERE IS NO, THEY COULD GET RID OF IT IMMEDIATELY, THE DEMOCRATS COULD.

SO THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO REACH THESE ECONOMY CRUSHING POTENTIAL MOMENTS.

AND MY ANALYSIS IS THE ONLY REASON THE DEMOCRATS DON'T GET RID OF IT, BECAUSE THEY INTENT-- INTEND TO ACT JUST AS IRRESPONSIBLY SOMETIME, I'M SERIOUS, AS THE REPUBLICANS.

SO OTHERWISE WHY WOULDN'T THEY GET RID OF IT?

>> LOOK, I AM A BALANCE BUDGET GUY.

I DON'T LIKE A CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BUT THE CONCEPT OF PAYING FOR WHAT YOU WANT TO ME IS A GOOD CONCEPT.

AND IT SHOULD BE THE GOAL AND WE HAVE COMPLETELY LOST TRACK OF THAT.

I DON'T THINK WE COULD GET HERE TOMORROW, DON'T GET ME WRONG BUT I DO THINK WE SHOULD HEAD TOWARDS IT, I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

I WANT TO GET BACK TO IT THE WHOLE CONCEPT.

WHEN YOU SAY AMERICA REALLY WANTS SOMETHING, ANYTHING, I'M SURE THAT IS TRUE.

BUT AMERICA IS NOT THE ANSWER FOR EVERY INDIVIDUAL DISTRECT AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL STATE.

FOR THE SAKE OF DISCUSSION, AM THAT 3 POINT TRILLION DOLLAR BILL IS A BIG CHUNK OF THE GREEN NEW DEAL.

HAVE I NOT TAKEN ANY POLLS BUT I CAN FEEL PRETTY CONFIDENT SAYING THE GREEN NEW DEAL IS NOT POPULAR IN WEST VIRGINIA.

I DON'T MOW THAT BUT I'M PRETTY SURE I'M PROBABLY RIGHT.

IF THAT IS THE CASE THERE IS NO INCENTIVE FOR JOE MANCHIN TO DO IT BNS THAT IS LIKE SAYING IF YOU ARE NOT IN CALIFORNIA WITH THE FIRES, IF YOU ARE NOT IN THE MIDWEST WITH THE DRAUGHT, IF YOU ARE NOT AT A PLACE WITH THE FLOODS, YOU DON'T VOTE FOR A BILL?

>> WHAT DO MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUE DO FOR HURRICANE KATRINA OR HURRICANE SANDY.

I KNOW WHAT THEY DID, AND YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DID.

THEY VOTED AGAINST IT EVEN THOUGH THEY GOT MONEY THEMSELVES FOR FLORIDA AND TEXAS WHEN THEY HAD PROBLEMS.

>> TRUE.

>> IRRESPONSIBILITY IS ALL OVER THE PLACE.

AND IT IS NOT NEW.

AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS MISSING IN POLITICS TODAY IS A REWARD AND BENEFIT BEHIND THE SCENES.

I KNOW NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR THIS.

BUT ABE LINCOLN DID IT, FDR DID IT, J.F.K.

DID IT, YOU MAKE DEALS WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT NECESSARILY GOOD PEOPLE OR DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE THE BEST INTERESTS FOR THE COUNTRY AT HEART.

THERE WILL ALWAYS A HANDFUL OF THEM AND THEY SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

JOE MANCHIN IS A GOOD MAN.

I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM ON ALMOST ANYTHING.

BUT HE COMES FROM WEST VIRGINIA, I COME FROM BOSTON.

I'M NOT SURE BUT I DON'T KNOW YOU CAN FIND TWO PARTS OF THE COUNTRY THAT ARE DIFFERENT THAN BOSTON AND WEST VIRGINIA.

>> Braude: ONLY A COUPLE OF MINUTES, STARTING WITH YOU, IS THIS DISFUNCTION A PERMANENT CONDITION OR DO YOU AND YOUR IDLE HOURS SAY HERE IS A PART OUT OF IT IT.

IS THERE A PATH OUT OF IT OR DO WEJUST LIP THROUGH IT UNTIL IT EXPIRES?

>> I THINK THE PROMISE OF JOE BIDEN'S PRESIDENCY IS THERE IS A WAY OUT OF IT.

AND THAT WASHINGTON CAN WORK.

THAT IS WHAT HE RAN ON.

THAT IS SORT OF THE APPROXIMATES TURE HE HAS BEEN TAKING.

AND I WILL SAY TO THE POINT ABOUT YOU KNOW ABOUT THE 3.5 TRILLION DOLLAR LEGISLATION AND WHAT IS IN IT, THERE IS QUITE A LOT IN IT FOR WEST VIRGINIA.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, JOE BIDEN IS TRYING TO MAKE THOSE VERY KIND OF DEALS THAT YOU KNOW, WE JUST DESCRIBED.

IT'S LIKE, AND YOU KNOW, CAN IT WORK?

I MEAN IT WON'T WORK 100% FOR SURE BUT HE HAS HAD SUCCESS.

AND IT IS EASY TO FORGET BUT IN THE OPENING, FIRST FEW MONTHS OF HIS PRESIDENCY, HE PASSED A MASSIVE STIMULUS LEGISLATION.

SO YOU KNOW, HE WILL HAVE SOMETHING TO RUN ON.

AND HE WILL BE ABLE TO SAY THAT HE MADE CONGRESS WORK A LITTLE BIT BETTER.

BUT YOU KNOW, IT IS HANGING IN THE BALANCE RIGHT NOW WHETHER OR NOT HE CAN COME UP WITH A FINAL BIT OF THAT.

>> Braude: I ONLY HAVE A COUPLE SECONDS LEFT MACK CAPUANO, SPEAKING OF HANGING IN THE BALANCE, RACHAEL ROLLINS MOM NATION TO BE THE U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS IS HANGING IN THE BALANCE AS I MENTIONED, BEFORE YOU CAME ON, TIE VOTE, OBVIOUSLY, IN THE KEY COMMITTEE.

EITHER DEMOCRATS HAVE TO STICK TOGETHER 100 PERCENT IN THE SENATE OR IF THEY DON'T, A REPUBLICAN OR TWO HAS GOT TO CROSS OVER.

IS HER NOMINATION AT RISK OR WILL SHE BE CONFIRMED.

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT, I THINK HER NOMINATION IS AT RISK.

I THINK IT IS AN EASY VOTE FOR ANY REPUBLICAN TO VOTE NO ON A U.S. ATTORNEY.

IT IS NOT A DIFFICULT VOTE.

I DON'T KNOW THAT A DEMOCRAT WILL WALK AWAY FROM IT.

I AM HOPING THAT THEY WON'T.

AND I SUSPECT THAT THEY WON'T.

AGAIN IT IS A RELATIVELY EASY VOTE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME I DO THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE SOME COMPRISES TO PAY-- SOME PRICES TO PAY FOR SOME OF THE OUTSPOKEN COMMENTS, NOT COMMENTS BUT POLICY POSITIONS RACHAEL HAS TAKEN.

THEY MAY BE FINE HERE, BUT IT WON'T NECESSARILY BE FINE FOR THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

I THINK THERE WILL BE SOME PAYMENT TO BE MADE.

I DO THINK IN THE END SHE WILL PROBABLY GET APPROVED BUT I THINK IT COULD BE A LITTLE BIT OF A BUMP.

>> Braude: IT MAY NOT MATTER THAT THOSE POLICIES ARE WORKING BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IT MATTERS TO TOM COTTON AND THE OTHERS.

>> DON'T LET FACTS GET FLT WAY JNS NEVER HAD, NEVER WILL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

ON JANUARY 20, 2017, DONALD TRUMP WAS SWORN IN AS AMERICA'S 45th PRESIDENT.

AND ON JANUARY 21, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS SWARMED THE STREETS OF D.C. FOR THE WOMEN'S MARCH ON WASHINGTON, WITH MILLIONS MORE IN SISTER-MARCHES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IT WAS ESTIMATED TO BE THE LARGEST SINGLE-DAY PROTEST IN U.S. HISTORY, ALL STANDING AGAINST THE MAN WHO'D JUST TAKEN OFFICE.

THE LONGER TRUMP SPENT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THE MORE WOMEN BANDED TOGETHER TO FIGHT HIS POLICIES AND RUN FOR OFFICE, AND A NEW BOOK IS CREDITING THEM WITH KICKING HIM OUT OF THE JOB.

THE BOOK IS, "RESISTANCE: HOW WOMEN SAVED DEMOCRACY FROM DONALD TRUMP."

IT'S AUTHOR, "WASHINGTON POST" COLUMNIST JENNIFER RUBIN, JOINS ME NOW.

>> Braude: JEBBIVE, GOOD TO SEE YOU, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> MY PLEASURE YZ THAT DAY, THE 21S WAS WILDLY IMPRESSIVE BUT THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM TO WHICH I DESCRIBED IF IT IS A ONE OFF, IT WILL NOT HAVE ACHIEVED MUCH.

IT WAS NOT, SO WHAT DID HAPPEN AFTER THE 21S OF JANUARY?

>> WELL, I THINK EVEN BEFORE THAT DATE WOMEN WERE SHOCKED.

THEY WERE SHAKEN BY DONALD TRUMP'S ELECTION.

AND THEY BEGAN TO COMIS RATE, BEGAN TO REACH OUT TO OTHER WOMEN, BEGAN TO FORM NEW NETWORKS.

AND CONTINUED TO BUILD THROUGH THE WOMEN'S MARCH.

IF YOU REMEMBER A WEEK LATER CAME THE MONTH OF MAN WHICH MANY PEOPLE WENT TO AIRPORTS.

AND THAT, AGAIN FOR ORGANIZING AND CONNECTION WITH OTHER WOMEN AND ENTERING THE POLITICAL REALM, EITHER ITS CANDIDATES OR DONORS, ACTIVISTS, VOLUNTEERS, THAT CONTINUED STEADILY DRIVEN IN LARGE PART BY DONALD TRUMP.

NOT ONLY HIS POLICIES, BUT HIS PERSONA AND THE ENTIRE ATTITUDE OF THE ADMINISTRATION TOWARDS WOMEN, MINORITIES.

AND THE SENSE THAT AN AMERICA THAT THEY HAD COME TO RELY ON ASK A FAIR PLACE, A DECENT PLACE, WAS IN PERIL.

>> Braude: WAS THERE ONE MOMENT FOR YOU PERSONALLY, WAS THERE AN EPIPHANY OR COLLECTION THAT MOVED YOU AWAY FROM THE REPUBLICAN COLUME.

>> I THINK IT WAS WHEN THEY FINALLY LET HIM HAVE THE NOMINATION.

I HOPED AGAINST HOPE THAT AT SOME POINT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WOULD WAKE UP AND WHEN THEY DIDN'T, I CALLED IT QUITS.

I WROTE A LETTER BREAKING UP WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

AND ESSENTIALLY SAYING ANY PARTY THAT WOULD HAVE HIM, I CAN'T BE A PART OF.

AND OVER TIME OTHERS JOINED.

BUT IT WAS REALLY THE SENSE THAT THE PARTY HAD GONE SO FAR ASTRAY-- ASTRAY IN REPUTE YAITING HALF VIEWS AND ADOPTING, RATIONALIZING THE PERSON WHO I FELT WAS A REAL THREAT TO DEMOCRACY.

>> Braude: THAT LINE YOU BORROWED FROM GROUCHO MARKS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITES I SHOULD SAY BY THE WAY, IT IT WASN'T JUST THE ORGANIZING BY, WELL, IT WAS BUT IT WAS ALSO WOMEN WHO NEVER THOUGHT OF RUNNING FOR OFFICE RUNNING.

AND WHILE YOU PROTILE A LOT OF THEM.

WHILE WE ALL KNOW ABOUT NANCY PELOSI AND OCASIO-CORTEZ, THERE IS ONE THAT I COULDN'T GET MY EYES OFF IN YOUR BOOK.

ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, A FORMER KRRK I ARC AGENT WITHOUT CHOSE TO RUN IN VIRGINIA AGAINST THE TEA PARTY GUY WHO HAD BEATEN THE POTENTIAL SPEAKER IN WAITING ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

AND IN THE CAMPAIGN HE TRIED TO BRAND HER AS SORT OF A NANCY PELOSI CLONE, JUST A TYPICAL DEMOCRATIC LIBERAL.

AND YOU CITE THIS MOMENT IN THEIR DEBATE AS BEING THAT ULTIMATELY WENT VIRAL AS THE ONE THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING MUCH HERE IS SPANBERGER.

>> I AM NOT NANCY PELOSI.

AND MI NOT PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA.

I AM A WOMAN WHO GREW UP, WHO GREW UP IN THIS COMMUNITY, WHO WAS TAUGHT SERVICE, HARD WORK, AND A COMMITMENT TO THE BELIEF THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE CAN BE ANYTHING.

>> AN I GAL SPANBERG CERTIFICATE MY NAME.

>> I LOVE THAT, I WILL TELL YOU, I WISH I HAD LIVED IN VIRGINIA.

SO WHAT KIND OF KIRCHES DOES SPANBERGER MAKE AFTER SHE WON.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU, I COULDN'T TAKE MY EYES OFF HER AND I STILL CAN'T.

SHE WAS FORMALLY HAS WORKED IN THE CIA UNDERCOVER, NO LESS.

AND HAD LEFT THE CIA, FELT THAT DUTY CALLED HER IMEN.

SHE WAS GOBSMACKED AS WERE MANY OF US ON ELECTION NIGHT AND FELT THAT THE COUNTRY REALLY DID NEED PEOPLE WHO CARED ABOUT AMERICA, WHO UNDERSTOOD SOMETHING ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY, WHO APPRECIATED DEMOCRATIC NORMS.

AND ONCE SHE GOT ELECTED, SHE QUICKLY BECAME ONE OF A GROUP OF FIVE WOMEN FRESHMAN ELECTED WHO LIKE THE NAME THE BAD ASS, THEY NAMED THEMSELVES THE BAD ASS, THESE WOMEN ALL HAD A NATIONAL SECURITY BACKGROUND.

AND THEY TENDED TO BE MODERATE, THEY ADDED TO THE DEMOCRATIC TOLL, AOC AND OTHERS MAY HAVE BEATEN OTHER DEMOCRATS IN PRIMARIES OR RUN IN EMPTY SEATS, THEY DIDN'T ACTUALLY ADD TO THE MAJORITY.

AND SHE BECAME I THINK A REAL FORCE OF NATURE.

AND ONE OF THE KEY MOMENTS IN THE FIRST IMPEACH AM, IF YOU REMEMBER, IS WHEN ABBIGAIL SPANBERGER, BEFORE THE KSH-- FOUR OTHER WOMEN AND JOINING THEM WITH OTHER FRESHMAN MEN CAME OUT IN FAVOR OF IMPEACHMENT.

CALLED NANCY PELOSI, WAS NOT PARTICULARLY ENAMOURED OF IT, DIDN'T THINK IT WAS A POLITICAL STRONG POINT FOR THE DEMOCRATS BUT THESE WOMEN, WITH THIS NATIONAL SECURITY BACKGROUND FINALLY KAISM TO THE CONCLUSION THAT I HAS SO DAMAGED OUR NATIONAL SECURITY, IS IN CANNINGER OF CORRUPTING THE PRESIDENT O TO SUCH A DEGREE THAT WE FEEL WE HAVE TO ACT.

AND SO I THINK SHE CONTINUES TO BE IN A BALLAST, IF YOU WILL, OF THE HOUSE.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, WE SHOULD BE CLEAR THERE, NOT ONLY DID THEY WRITE THAT THING IN "THE WASHINGTON POST," BUT UNLESS I'M WRONG, THE NEXT DAY NANCY PELOSI DECIDED YEAH, WE'LL MOVE FORWARD WITH IMPEACHMENT.

SO IT WASN'T JUST AN OPINION T HAD A HUGE IMPACT.

>> CORRECT.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, JENNIFER, HOW WOMEN SAVED DEMOCRACY FROM DONALD TRUMP IS YOUR SUBHEADLINE.

ONE WOMAN, ONE, COULD HAVE SAVED DEMOCRACY FROM DONALD TRUMP, HILLARY CLINTON DIDN'T, WHY?

>> IT IS A COMPLICATED QUESTION.

YOU CAN SAY THAT AMERICA WASN'T READY FOR A WOMAN PRESIDENT.

PERHAPS THAT WAS TRUE.

SHE DIDN'T RUN A GREAT CAMPAIGN.

SHE RAN AS SORT OF A STATUS QUO ESTABLISHMENT CHARACTER.

DONALD TRUMP RAN AS SOMEONE WHO IS GOING TO SHAKE UP AMERICA AND WAS GOING TO BE AN OUTSIDER, RAN ON A POPULIST MESSAGE.

BUT I THINK THE LESSON LEARNED WERE THAT OR THE LESSON MISLEARNED FROM THAT WAS THAT AMERICANS WOULD BE VERY SCEPTICAL OF ANOTHER WOMAN CANDIDATE.

AND THAT IS WHERE A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE WOMEN IN 2020 WHO WERE TRYING TO RUN.

AND IT IS THE NEGLECTS PROPPED UP THAT THE DEMOCRATS NEEDED A SAFE CANDIDATE.

AND THAT SAFE CANDIDATE BECAME A WHITE MALE JOE BIEDIN.

SO I THINK WOMEN MADE TREMENDOUS PROGRESS IN 2020.

WE HAD MULTIPLE WOMEN RUNNING.

SO THAT THEY COULD BE INDIVIDUALS.

JUST LIKE MEN HAVE ALWAYS BEEN.

BUT THERE WAS STILL A VERY HIGH BAR, A HIGHER BAR PERHAPS POR THEM IN UNARING FOR PRESIDENT.

NOW WE DO HAVE AN VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES I THINK THAT WILL MAKE-- VICE PRESIDENTS DO BECOME PRESIDENTS AND THEY ALSO ACCLIMATIZE THE ELECTORATE TO SEEING WOMEN IN A VERY HIGH POSITION OF AUTHORITY.

SEEING HER WITH THE MILITARY, SEEING HER WITH FOREIGN LEADERS.

>> Braude: ALSO RECORD NUMBER OF WOMEN IN CONGRESS, OBVIOUSLY.

I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT, LAST THING, QUOTING THE SUBTITLE HOW WOMEN SAVED DEMOCRACY FROM TRUMP.

I WOULD SAY THEY DIDN'T SAVE DEMOCRACY.

THEY SAVED THE PRESIDENCY FROM TRUMP.

IT APPEARS THEY DID NOT SAVE DEMOCRACY AND THEY DIDN'T SAVE AMERICA FROM TRUMPISM, DID THEY?

>> NO, AND THE FIGHT GOES ON.

I WAS MUCH MORE OPTIMISTIC, ACTUALLY, JUST WHEN I FINISHED WRITING THE BOOK AFTER JANUARY 6th THAN I AM NOW.

YOU ARE RIGHT, IN SO FAR AS THE BATTLE IMOAS ON.

I THINK THEY DID INTERVENE AT A CRITICAL TIME HAD DONALD TRUMP BEEN RE-ELECTED.

I THINK WE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN DEEP DEEP TROUBLE.

BUT YOU ARE CORRECT, THE MOVEMENT HE BEGAN, THE ASSAULT ON DEMOCRATIC NORMS AND VALUES, THE ASSAULT ON OBJECTIVE REALITY GOES ON.

WOMEN AND MEN ARE GOING TO HAVE TO STAY ENIMAIJED APPROXIMATE THEY WANT TO PRESERVE OUR DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY.

>> Braude: CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK, REALLY IMPORTANT LEAD, THANKS SO MUCH, GOOD TO MEET YOU.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> THE BOOK IS RETIS-- RESISTANCE, HOW WOMEN SAVED EM DEMOCRACY FROM DONALD TRUMP.

AS YOU MAY HAVE SEEN, THERE'S A NEW GRISHAM ON THE LITERARY SCENE AS WELL, WHO'S READY TO GIVE JOHN A RUN FOR HIS MONEY.

I'M TALKING ABOUT STEPHANIE GRISHAM, THE FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY WHO WAS MOST FAMOUS FOR NOT HOLDING A SINGLE PRESS CONFERENCE OVER HER NEARLY NINE MONTHS ON THE JOB.

SO OBVIOUSLY, HER BOOK WOULD BE TITLED, "I'LL TAKE YOUR QUESTIONS NOW."

THE TWO-YEARS-TOO-LATE TELL-ALL INCLUDES A WIDE RANGE OF REVELATIONS, FROM THE SERIOUS TO DOWNRIGHT BIZARRE.

LIKE, HER CLAIM THAT TRUMP CUTS HIS OWN HAIR WITH GIANT SCISSORS, OR THAT HE ONCE CALLED HER FROM AIR FORCE ONE TO DEFEND THE SIZE AND SHAPE OF A CERTAIN PIECE OF HIS ANATOMY THAT STORMY DANIELS HAD PUBLICLY SPOKEN ILL OF.

GRISHAM ALSO INDICATED TRUMP REFUSED GENERAL ANESTHESIA DURING A COLONOSCOPY TO AVOID SIGNING OVER PRESIDENTIAL POWER TO MIKE PENCE, AND FOR FEAR OF "SHOWING WEAKNESS," AS WELL AS BECOMING THE "THE BUTT OF A JOKE."

I THINK I SEE WHAT SHE DID THERE.

WHAT'S MORE, APPARENTLY, WHEN THE THEN-PRESIDENT'S RAGE GOT OUT OF HAND, EVEN FOR HIM, WHITE HOUSE STAFF WOULD CALL IN AN AIDE THEY NICKNAMED, "THE MUSIC MAN" TO PLAY SOME FAVORITE SHOW TUNES, INCLUDING "PHANTOM OF THE OPERA," AND THIS ONE: ( "MEMORY" FROM "CATS" ) S MEMORY, TURN YOUR FACE TO THE MOONLIGHT S >> Braude: SERIOUSLY.

YOU KNOW, I NEVER REALLY TOOK TRUMP TO BE A SHOW TUNES KIND OF GUY.

BUT THAT PARTICULAR OBSESSION COULD DEFINITELY BE LINKED WITH THIS ONE.

>> I HAVE A GOOD MEMORY, LIKE A GREAT MEMORY.

I'M BLESSED WITH A GREAT MEMORY.

I HAVE ONE OF THE GREAT MEMORIES OF ALL TIME.

>> Braude: YES, WE KNOW.

PERSON, WOMAN, MAN, CAMERA, TV.

BUT BACK TO THE BOOK.

GRISHAM RECOUNTS AT LEAST ONE PRETTY TERRIFYING DETAIL ABOUT A 2019 MEETING BETWEEN TRUMP AND PUTIN, IN WHICH SHE QUOTES THE THEN-PRESIDENT AS TELLING THE DICATOR: "OKAY, I'M GOING TO ACT A LITTLE TOUGHER WITH YOU FOR A FEW MINUTES.

BUT IT'S FOR THE CAMERAS, AND AFTER THEY LEAVE, WE'LL TALK.

YOU UNDERSTAND."

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS HOW NO ONE ACTED ON ANY OF THIS!

IT'S ONE THING WHEN YOU HAVE THESE ANTI-TRUMP BOOKS FROM CREDIBLE, FACT-BASED JOURNALISTS LIKE BOB WOODWARD, JONATHAN KARL, CAROL LEONNIG AND PHILLIP RUCKER-- ALL OF WHOM, OF COURSE, ARE THE ENEMY ACCORDING TO TRUMP SYCOPHANTS.

BUT WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO APPEARS TO HAVE ADORED HIM, SHOULDN'T THAT CONVINCE JUST ABOUT EVERYONE?

IN THE END, IT'S TOO BAD GRISHAM NEVER REALLY SPOKE TO THE MEDIA DURING HER TENURE AS PRESS SECRETARY.

BECAUSE IT TURNS OUT SHE MIGHT HAVE ELICITED A LAUGH OR TWO!

SHE REFERS TO JARED KUSHNER AS "RASPUTIN IN A SLIM-FITTING SUIT" AND WHO DOESN'T PICK UP ON THAT RESEMBLANCE?

BUT AS FOR WHY SHE NEVER HELD A PRESS CONFERENCE?

GRISHAM EXPLAINS: "I KNEW THAT SOONER OR LATER THE PRESIDENT WOULD WANT ME TO TELL THE PUBLIC SOMETHING THAT WAS NOT TRUE OR THAT WOULD MAKE ME SOUND LIKE A LUNATIC."

AND THEN SHE SAYS: "I SHOULD HAVE SPOKEN UP MORE."

YOU THINK?

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "BOSTON'S RACE INTO HISTORY."

SARAYA WINTERSMITH WILL CATCH US UP ON THE WEEK IN MAYORAL NEWS, AND ADAM REILLY AND A PANEL WILL TAKE UP ONE OF THE TOP ISSUES IN THE ELECTION: HOW TO TACKLE THE ISSUES AT THE ROOT OF MASS AND CASS.

THAT'S TOMORROW AT 7:00 ON GBH-2 AND www.gbhnews.org.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

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