♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> RUSSIA'S ATTEMPT AT BUILDING AN EMPIRE HAS BECOME DEPENDENT ON NORTH KOREA.

>> THE AMERICAN AMBASSADOR IN JAPAN, RAHM EMANUEL, TELLS ME ANY ARMS DEAL WITH NORTH KOREA SHOULD BE AN EMBARRASSMENT FOR RUSSIA.

>>> THEN -- >> I SOLEMNLY UNDER TAKE ON MY HONOR TO DO MY UTMOST.

>> Reporter: CORRESPONDENT DAVID McKENZIE REPORTS ON THE RAFT OF RECENT AFRICA COUPS.

AND I SPEAK TO SENIOR DIRECTOR OF THE ATLANTIC COUNCIL'S CENTER, RAMA YADE.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THE WHITE HOUSE IS PUBLICLY REVEALING INTELLIGENCE THAT SUGGESTS THAT NORTH KOREAN DICTATOR KIM JONG-UN COULD MEET PRESIDENT PUTIN SOON.

THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS MOSCOW IS TRYING TO DRUM UP WEAPONS AND AMMUNITION FOR ITS WAR IN UKRAINE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, PUTIN WILL NOT BE MEETING WITH HIS G20 PARTNERS AT THE WEEKEND SUMMIT IN INDIA.

IT'S WIDELY EXPECTED THE CHINESE PRESIDENT, XI JINPING, WILL ALSO NOT ATTEND.

A STARK REMINDER OF THE EXISTING TENSIONS AND HARDENING DIVISIONS IN THE WORLD.

U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN RAHM EMANUEL IS AT THE CENTER OF AMERICAN POLICY IN THE INDO-PACIFIC REGION.

HE WAS ALSO AT CAMP DAVID WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN HOSTED A RARE GATHERING WITH LEADERS OF JAPAN AND SOUTH KOREA LAST MONTH, ALL DESIGNED TO STRENGTHEN THIS ALLIANCE AND DETER SERIOUS CHALLENGES FROM CHINA AND RUSSIA.

I SPOKE TO AMBASSADOR EMANUEL EARLIER FROM TOKYO.

>> AMBASSADOR EMANUEL, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO, LOOK, THE BIG NEWS OUT OF YOUR REGION -- WELL, ACTUALLY FROM WASHINGTON AFFECTING YOUR REGION, IS THAT IT APPEARS THE U.S.

BELIEVES KIM JONG-UN WILL BE MAKING A VISIT TO PRESIDENT PUTIN, UNKNOWN DATE OR PLACE, BUT NONETHELESS AROUND THE IDEA OF POTENTIALLY PUTIN GETTING MORE WEAPONS OR AMMUNITION FOR THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AS AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN AND IN THAT PACIFIC REGION, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I MEAN, I THINK A COUPLE THINGS I WOULD TAKE OUT OF THIS.

IF YOU THINK -- PUT ASIDE THE FACT THAT THIS WAR IS AN ILLEGAL, ILLEGITIMATE WAR.

THE ENTIRE ENDEAVOR HERE FOR RUSSIA WAS TO RE-ESTABLISH ITS EMPIRE, AND THIS EMPIRE NOW IS DEPENDENT ON NORTH KOREA.

IT'S DEPENDENT ON IRAN, TWO ISOLATED COUNTRIES, TWO COUNTRIES THAT ARE SEEN AS PARIAHS.

THAT TELLS YOU HOW MUCH OF A FAILURE THIS WAR IS.

SECOND POINT IS BOTH FOR NORTH KOREA, FOR RUSSIA, ALSO FOR CHINA AND IRAN, THEY HAVE A GENUINE CHARACTERISTICS THEY SHARE, ONE OF ECONOMIC COERCION, ONE OF AGGRESSION, AND ONE OF REPRESSION AT HOME.

AND ALL FOUR COUNTRIES ALSO SHARE CHARACTERISTICS, PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO FLEE THEM.

THEIR OWN PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO FLEE THEM.

SO I DO THINK AT A FUNDAMENTAL LEVEL, WHILE NOT HELPFUL, NOT GOOD FOR THE EMBARGO, RUSSIA'S ATTEMPT AT BUILDING AN EMPIRE HAS BECOME DEPENDENT ON NORTH KOREA.

I THINK THAT SAYS IT ALL.

THERE'S NOT REALLY MUCH TO ADD TO THAT.

>> SO LET'S JUST DRILL DOWN A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE WHEN YOU ANALYZE IT -- AND I HEAR EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING -- DOES IT SEEM TO YOU AND TO THE UNITED STATES AND MAYBE TO THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT, THE SOUTH KOREANS, ESSENTIALLY YOUR ALLIES, THAT IT MEANS RUSSIA IS RUNNING OUT OF WEAPONS OR AMMUNITION OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

AND IS IT POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS IN A WEAPONS WAY FOR THE UNITED STATES AND FOR THIS WAR?

>> IT'S NOT WELCOME, BUT IT'S A CLEAR SIGN WHEN RUSSIA, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, AN EMPIRE AND NUCLEAR POWER, IS DEPENDENT ON NORTH KOREA FOR THE VERY WEAPONS.

IT DOES MEAN THE EMBARGO IS HAVING AN IMPACT.

IS IT SEAL-PROOF?

NO.

BUT IT DOES MEAN THIS HAS TO -- YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT IT THIS WAY.

RUSSIA HAD TO CROSS A LOT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL, POLITICAL, AND ECONOMIC KIND OF THRESHOLDS TO GET TO A PLACE THAT THEY HAD TO PUBLICLY -- THEY HAVEN'T YET ACKNOWLEDGED IT, BUT WE HAVE DONE OUR JOB TO EXPOSE IT, THAT THEY ARE DEPENDENT ON NORTH KOREA.

THERE'S HUNDREDS OF COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, BUT THIS IS WHAT THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE, THE ENDEAVOR OF THIS WAR -- IT HAS A POLITICAL IMPLICATION AT HOME FOR RUSSIA, FOR PUTIN SPECIFICALLY, THAT YOU ARE NOW NOT THE SPONSOR OF NORTH KOREA.

NORTH KOREA IS YOUR WEAPONS SUPPLIER.

THINK OF THE FLIP OF THAT, WHAT THAT MEANS POLITICALLY, ECONOMICALLY, AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT.

NOW, IT IS NOT WELCOME, BUT IT IS A SIGN THAT THE EMBARGO IS EFFECTIVE AND WORKING.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, THEN, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY CHINA IS INVOLVED TOO.

CHINA AS A CERTAIN FRIENDLY RELATIONSHIP WITH RUSSIA.

DOES THIS GROUPING, THIS ALLIANCE, POSE A THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES AND ITS WESTERN ALLIES?

CHINA, NORTH KOREA, RUSSIA, AND WHOEVER ELSE, IRAN?

>> I'M NOT SURE I WOULD CALL IT AN ALLIANCE.

WHAT WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES IS ALLIES AND ALLIANCES.

IT'S BUILT ON TRUST, BUILT ON COMMON INTERESTS, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, COMMON VALUES.

THIS IS KIND OF LIKE AN AGREEMENT AMONG PLAYERS THAT ARE ISOLATED IN THE WORLD.

AND I REALLY DO THINK THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT DEFINE THEM AND UNITE THEM ARE ONE OF AGGRESSION, OPPRESSION, AND COERCION.

THAT DOES UNITE THEM, AND IT ALSO IS A TELLING SIGN NOT ONLY THAT THOSE CHARACTERISTICS UNITE THEM, THAT THE PEOPLE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES -- REMEMBER, THINK ABOUT THIS.

IRAN IS LITERALLY COMING UP TO THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY WHERE THEY'RE SCARED OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY WERE KILLING THEIR OWN PEOPLE WHO WERE LITERALLY TRYING TO STAND UP FOR FREEDOM.

YOU HAVE KIDS FLEEING BOTH ST. PETERSBURG, MOSCOW, BEIJING, AND SHANGHAI, AND ALSO IN NORTH KOREA.

THAT IS A TELLING SIGN.

AND I THINK SOMETIMES THOSE OF US IN THE WEST, INCLUDED MYSELF, YOU, WE FORGET HOW POWERFUL A SE DUCTIVE FORCE FREEDOM IS.

THIS IS NOT A WELCOME SIGN, THIS ALLIANCE, BECAUSE WE DO THINK OUR EMBARGO IS HAVING AN IMPACT ON RUSSIA'S ABILITY TO WAGE THE WAR.

THAT SAID, IT IS A MAJOR, MAJOR POLITICAL EMBARRASSMENT FOR RUSSIA TO BE NOT THE SPONSOR OF NORTH KOREA BUT DEPENDENT ON NORTH KOREA FOR THEIR MILITARY CAPACITY.

THAT IS NOT WHERE A SUPERPOWER WANTS TO BE.

>> SO LET ME TALK TO ABOUT THE COUNTRY TO WHICH YOU ARE AMBASSADOR.

YOU HAVE RECENTLY SAID THAT THIS RELATIONSHIP, IN ALL ITS DIMENSIONS IS GOING FROM ALLIANCE PROTECTION TO ALLIANCE PROJECTION.

TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> WELL, BECAUSE IT WAS ALWAYS JUST ABOUT ALLIANCE PROTECTION, AND NOW IT'S ABOUT ALLIANCE PROJECTION, A PROJECTION OF THOSE INTERESTS, THOSE VALUES, AND WORKING IN UNISON AND COMBINATION.

ONE EXAMPLE OF THAT IS WHEN IT CAME TO THE MARCH 3rd VOTE IN 2022 IN THE UNITED NATIONS, CONDEMNING RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE, JAPAN GOT ON THE PHONE WITH THE ASEAN COUNTRIES AND HELPED INDUCE 8 OUT OF 10 TO VOTE TO CONDEMN RUSSIA.

FOUR OF THEM WERE CO-SPONSORS.

CAMBODIA IS ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN HELPING UKRAINE ON MINE SWEEPING.

THAT IS ALLIANCE PROJECTION.

IT WASN'T LIKE THAT 30, 40 YEARS AGO.

IT'S A RELATIONSHIP ALSO WHEN WE SAY PROJECTION, WHEN JAPAN DECIDED TO INCREASE THEIR DEFENSE BUDGET FROM 1% TO 2% OF GDP, BECOMING THE THIRD LARGEST BUDGET WITH WHAT I ADD IS A CAPITAL "D" TO DETERRENCE, NOT MILITARILY ALONE, DIPLOMATICALLY, DEVELOPMENT-WISE, AS WELL AS IN DEFENSE SPENDING.

THAT, TO ME, IS WHAT DEFINES ALLIANCE PROJECTION INTO THE REGION.

AND IT'S ALSO, WHEN WE WERE WORKING ON THE TRILATERAL THAT WAS RECENTLY HELD IN CAMP DAVID, THAT, TOO, IS TAKING THE RISK, GOING A LITTLE FARTHER TO HELP PROJECT A MORE UNIFIED, COLLABORATIVE, AND COOPERATIVE RELATIONSHIP INTO THE REGION AND A SET OF VALUES.

>> YOU MENTION THAT VERY IMPORTANT CAMP DAVID MEETING AND THE ACCORDS.

YOU KNOW, SEVERAL ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE TRIED TO GET THESE, YOU KNOW, HISTORIC -- NOT ADVERSARIES MAYBE BUT THERE'S CERTAINLY ANIMOSITY THAT LINGERS BETWEEN SOUTH KOREA AND JAPAN.

AND THIS KIND OF MEETING THAT YOU'VE ALL GOT TOGETHER HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO ACHIEVED REALLY IN THIS WAY BEFORE.

WHY DO YOU THINK AND WHAT WAS THE REASON THAT IT'S WORKED OUT THIS TIME?

IS IT A THREAT FROM RUSSIA?

IS IT A THREAT FROM CHINA?

WHAT IS IT?

>> WELL, I WOULD MAKE THREE POINTS THAT I THINK ARE REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT.

PUT ASIDE AND BLOW ALL THE SMOKE ASIDE.

THE POLITICS IN THIS REGION ARE PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE, THE UNITED STATES.

WE ARE A PERMANENT PACIFIC POWER AND PRESENCE, AND YOU CAN BET LONG ON AMERICA.

CHINA, YOU'RE THE DECLINING POWER.

YOU GET IN LINE OR YOU'RE GOING TO GET IT.

ONE OF CHINA'S CORE PRINCIPAL STRATEGIES IS THAT THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES CANNOT GET ON THE SAME PAGE AND WORK IN UNISON.

THAT CHANGED FUNDAMENTALLY THE REGION AFTER CAMP DAVID BECAUSE OF THE PRESIDENT'S LEADERSHIP.

SECOND PRODUCT OF THAT, THAT I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT, IS WHEN YOU HAVE TRUST LIKE PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BUILT WITH THE ALLIES, TRUST ALSO THAT THEY HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN PARTICULAR, THE PERSON IN THE OVAL OFFICE, THEY WON'T DO THE BARE MINIMUM.

THEY'LL GO A LITTLE FARTHER.

THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED WITH JAPAN AND KOREA AND THEIR TRUST OF THE UNITED STATES AND SPECIFICALLY PRESIDENT BIDEN.

THEY WENT FARTHER BECAUSE THEY CHANGED SOMETHING.

THEN THIRD, I THINK THIS IS A REALLY VALID POINT IN MY VIEW THAT SOMETIMES GETS LOST.

I THINK YOU COULD AGREE WITH ME THAT GIVEN THE WAR IN RUSSIA -- RATHER IN UKRAINE, THE FIRST WAR SINCE WORLD WAR II IN EUROPE, YOU HAVE A VERY DARK MOMENT.

YOU HAVE AN ATTEMPT, I THINK IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHERE PUTIN IS BASICALLY CHASING PETER THE GREAT AND CATHERINE THE GREAT IN THE 17th AND 18th CENTURY.

AND HE'S CAUGHT BY THE GHOSTS.

AND HE'S CAUGHT BY HISTORY AND THE PAST.

THE PRESIDENT, WE HAVE A COMPLICATED HISTORY WITH JAPAN AND KOREA INDIVIDUALLY.

THEY HAVE A COMPLICATED HISTORY.

BUT NEITHER ONE OF THE LEADERS DECIDED TO GET CAUGHT BY THE PAST BUT, MORE IMPORTANTLY, TRIED TO MAKE SOMETHING OF THE FUTURE.

AND IN THIS PERIOD OF DARKNESS, I THINK CAMP DAVID IS NOT ONLY STRATEGICALLY IMPORTANT, DIPLOMATICALLY IMPORTANT, BUT I THINK IT STANDS AS A SYMBOL OF WHERE DIALOGUE AND DIPLOMACY CAN BE SUCCESSFUL RATHER THAN THE WAR, WHERE THE FUTURE IS MORE ALLURING AND MORE SEDUCTIVE THAN WHEN THE PAST GETS YOU CAUGHT UP.

I SPECIFICALLY SAY IT BECAUSE NOT ONLY IS RUSSIA CAUGHT IN THE PAST, CHINA THIS WEEKEND, CHRISTIANE, PUT A MAP OUT OF THEIR VIEW OF THE WORLD AND THEIR REGION SPECIFICALLY THAT VIETNAM, THE PHILIPPINES, INDIA, EVEN RUSSIA AND BRUNEI ALL COMPLAINED ABOUT.

SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO CHASE THE 17th AND 18th CENTURY, DO IT ON YOUR OWN DIME, AND DON'T INVOLVE EVERYBODY ELSE.

THEY HAVE A VISION OF THE SOUTH CHINA SEA TOUCHES VIETNAM.

IT TOUCHES THE PHILIPPINES.

THEY HAVE A VISION OF ALSO THE BORDER WITH INDIA, ISLAND DISPUTE WITH RUSSIA, A VIEW OF THE SOUTH CHINA SEA THAT BRUNEI ALSO AND OTHERS DO NOT AGREE WITH, INDONESIA.

EVERYBODY COMPLAINED.

AND IT'S A VISION THAT COMES FROM THE QING DYNASTY OF THE 17th AND 18th CENTURY.

IT'S CAUGHT IN THE PAST.

IT IS NOT LOOKING AND PROJECTING INTO THE FUTURE.

AND I DO THINK THAT CAMP DAVID IS A CONTRAST POINT BOTH ON VALUES, INTERESTS, AND HOW YOU PROCEED FORWARD, ONE BUILT ON ALLIES' ALLIANCES.

AND, AGAIN, I WANT TO SAY THIS.

AMERICA HAS A COMPLICATED HISTORY WITH JAPAN.

WE HAVE A COMPLICATED HISTORY WITH KOREA.

KOREA AND JAPAN HAVE A COMPLICATED HISTORY.

WE DID NOT LET THE HISTORICAL FACTS AND BACKGROUND CAPTURE OR HOLD US CAPTIVE TO A DIFFERENT FUTURE, AND ONE IN WHICH BOTH DIPLOMACY AND DIALOGUE IS BETTER THAN THE ONE YOU'RE SEEING PLAY OUT IN UKRAINE OR POSSIBLY PLAY OUT IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA.

THERE IS NO NEIGHBOR TO CHINA RIGHT NOW.

THE INDIAN BORDER, CONFLICT.

PHILIPPINES, HITTING THEIR COAST GUARD CONSTANTLY.

IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, THE RESOURCES, OR KOREA, THERE IS NO COUNTRY IN THE REGIO THAT HAD SOME TYPE OF MILITARY OR OTHERWISE CONFRONTATION.

THE MAP IS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.

THAT TELLS YOU ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE COUNTRIES OF THIS REGION WANT THE UNITED STATES IN THIS REGION, BOTH MILITARILY, POLITICALLY, DIPLOMATICALLY, ECONOMICALLY, BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WANT TO UNTETHER CHINA, RUNNING AROUND, CLAIMING AREAS THAT ARE NOT THEIRS.

>> THIS IS THE CONTEXT IN WHICH THE U.S., CHINA, AND PACIFIC, YOU KNOW, ACTIVITY IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

YOU'RE RIGHT THERE, AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MAKE.

BUT IN THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS, THERE HAS BEEN A SLEW OF ARTICLES WRITTEN, MOSTLY IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN THE WEST, ABOUT ACTUALLY THE MANIFEST WEAKNESS OF CHINA AT THE MOMENT, THE ECONOMIC BOOM THAT THEY HOPED FOR AFTER COVID HAS NOT TRANSPIRED.

THEY ARE IN ILL HEALTH ECONOMICALLY.

THEY HAVE A TERRIBLE YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT SPIKE.

I MEAN IT'S REALLY BAD.

THEY'RE NOT EVEN PUTTING OUT THE FIGURES, IT'S THAT BAD.

>> CHINA HAS ECONOMIC WEAKNESSES AND VULNERABILITIES, MAINLY BECAUSE OF WHAT XI HAS DONE.

>> RIGHT.

>> EVERY ONE OF THESE, WHETHER IT'S THE HOUSING ISSUE, THE DEBT OVERHANG, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THE YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT IS CLOSER TO 30% TO 35%, WHICH I WANT TO REMIND EVERYBODY IN AMERICA.

THAT MEANS THE FULL YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN CHINA IS FAR WORSE THAN YOU'LL SEE IN ANY ECONOMICALLY STRESSED AREA OF AMERICA URBAN AREA.

AS A FORMER MAYOR, I WILL TELL YOU THAT.

AS A COUNTRY WITH A ONE-CHILD POLICY, THAT MEANS ONE-THIRD OF YOUR MOTHERS ARE REALLY, REALLY UPSET.

THE ONE-THIRD UNEMPLOYMENT OF YOUTH IN CHINA IS A CONSEQUENCE OF ALL OF XI'S ECONOMIC POLICIES.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHAT HE DID TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR, WHAT HE'S DONE TO THE HOUSING SECTOR, WHAT HE'S DONE TO THE EDUCATIONAL SECTOR HAS LED TO THIS TREMENDOUS UNEMPLOYMENT.

AND IT'S A TINDERBOX POLITICALLY BECAUSE IF YOU GO -- 1 OUT OF 3 OF YOUR YOUTH ARE UNEMPLOYED, HAVE GIVEN UP.

AND THEIR STRATEGY IS TO YELL AT THEM THAT THEY DON'T -- ARE NOT WORKING HARD ENOUGH.

AND ALL OF THESE ECONOMIC LIABILITIES THAT ARE NOW ACCUMULATING COLLECTIVELY ON CHINA ARE ALL THE RESULT OF A POLICY THAT XI ADOPTED.

HE TURNED HIS BACK ON THE INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC SYSTEM THAT HE COULD HAVE BEEN A PART OF, THAT WAS SUCCESSFUL FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS.

NOW THE COUNTRY OF CHINA AND THE PEOPLE OF CHINA ARE BEARING THE BRUNT OF XI'S POLICIES AND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THOSE POLICIES.

SIMPLE AS THAT.

>> UH-HUH.

>> WHAT WE HAVE DONE, AND I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS LED THAT EFFORT HERE IN THE REGION, IS BUILD ALLIES AND ALLIANCES AND COLLECTIVE INTERESTS.

YOU SAW IT MOST GLARINGLY DURING THE CAMP DAVID PROCESS AND PUTTING TOGETHER THREE COUNTRIES THAT ALL PRODUCED THIS YEAR NATIONAL SECURITY DOCUMENTS THAT ARE INCREDIBLY COMPLEMENTARY ABOUT A SET OF IDEALS ON FREEDOM, RULES, AND LAW, NOT ONE PERSON'S AUTHORITARIAN RULE AND DECISIONS TO USE THE RAW EXERCISE OF POWER RATHER THAN UPHOLD THE RULES-BASED SYSTEM.

CHINA, WHEN THEY WERE A PART OF THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM, SUCCEEDED.

CHINA, WHEN THEY'RE TURNING THEIR BACK ON THAT INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM, IS FAILING, FULL STOP.

AND THAT'S A DECISION XI HAS MADE.

>> OKAY.

SO LET'S TAKE THAT AS GIVEN AS YOU SAY.

SO WHAT SHOULD THE U.S. BE DOING?

IS IT HARDBALL, OR IS IT AN ATTEMPT BECAUSE OF WEAK CHINA CERTAINLY ECONOMICALLY IS NOT GREAT FOR THE UNITED STATES OR ANY OTHER PART OF THE WORLD.

>> LET ME -- THAT'S A FAIR QUESTION, BUT I ACTUALLY THINK IT'S, IF I COULD, NOT COMPLETE.

YOU NEVER, EVER SAY ONE THING.

YOU HAVE MANY TOOLS IN THE TOOLBOX.

SOMETIMES YOU'RE GOING TO WORK TOGETHER.

OTHER TIMES, YOU'RE GOING TO SAY HERE ARE THE LINES.

YOU DON'T CROSS THE LINES.

WHAT YOU CLEARLY ALWAYS DEVELOP IS A CLEAR STRATEGY AS IT RELATES TO CHINA, ONE THAT IS DETERRENCE.

I ALSO THINK BACK IN THE UNITED STATES, TOO OFTEN, TOO FREQUENTLY, DETERRENCE IS ONLY DEFINED BY YOUR MILITARY POWER.

I THINK WHAT WAS ACCOMPLISHED AT CAMP DAVID IS PART OF DETERRENCE.

A GROWING ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES, THAT'S INVESTING AND A STRONG, ROBUST ECONOMY THAT IS BASICALLY THE MARVEL OF THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, THAT'S DETERRENCE.

YOUR ALLIES WILLING TO JOIN WITH YOU, THAT'S DETERRENCE.

MAKING SURE YOU'RE INVESTING IN PART OF THE REGION, HELPING IT GROW ECONOMICALLY, BEING PART OF THAT, THAT'S DETERRENCE.

DETERRENCE INVOLVES ALL YOUR ASSETS AND RESOURCES, NOT JUST ONE SLIPPER.

IS THE MILITARY PART OF IT AN IMPORTANT PART?

YES.

TRUST ME, WHAT HAPPENED IN CAMP DAVID MADE CHINA THINK TWICE.

WHAT WE'RE DOING WHEN WE JUST RECENTLY TWO WEEKS AGO, THE UNITED STATES, JAPAN, AND AUSTRALIA WITH THE PHILIPPINES IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, HAVING A COAST GUARD EXERCISE.

WAS THAT PART OF DETERRENCE?

ABSOLUTELY.

WAS THE ECONOMIC ENGAGEMENT THAT WE DO IN THIS REGION AND OUR INVESTMENTS AND DEVELOPMENT, THAT'S ALSO DETERRENCE.

WHEN YOU TAKE THE FULL SCOPE OF IT, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CHINA CAN'T STAND IS THAT AMERICA HAS ALLIES THAT WILL STAND BY THEM.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THIS REGION IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS, THEY'VE HAD TWO BORDER CONFLICTS WITH INDIA, MULTIPLE CONFLICTS WITH THE PHILIPPINES IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA SEA.

THEY'VE HARASSED AUSTRALIA ON ECONOMIC COERCION AND HARASSED THEIR MILITARY BOATS AND USED MILITARY BOATS TO GET CLOSE TO THEIR SHORE.

THEY'VE DONE IT TO US.

THEY'VE DONE IT TO CANADA.

THERE'S NOBODY THEY'RE NOT FIGHTING WITH, AND THAT TELLS YOU WHY THE COUNTRIES OF THIS REGION -- AND IN A COUPLE WEEKS FROM NOW, THE PRESIDENT WILL BE IN VIETNAM.

THE COUNTRIES OF THIS REGION ARE DESPERATE FOR AMERICA'S POLITICAL, DIPLOMATIC, ECONOMIC, AND MILITARY LEADERSHIP BECAUSE THEY THINK IT'S THE RIGHT THING FOR THEIR OWN FUTURE OF THEIR PEOPLE.

>> AMBASSADOR RAHM EMANUEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> SO THAT IS AMERICA'S VIEW FROM THE INDO-PACIFIC.

BUT CHINA AND RUSSIA ARE ALSO CHALLENGING WESTERN INFLUENCE ON ALL THOSE TOPICS THAT YOU HEARD FROM AMBASSADOR EMANUEL IN AFRICA.

BUT IT IS THE LEGACY OF FRENCH COLONIAL POWER THAT'S UNDER THE SPOTLIGHT THERE NOW MORE.

IN GABON YESTERDAY, THE LEADER OF THE MILITARY JUNTA WAS SWORN IN AS PRESIDENT ACCORDING TO THE ECONOMIST, SINCE THE YEAR 2000, 16 OUT OF 24 SUCCESSFUL COUPS IN AFRICA HAVE BEEN IN FRANCOPHONE COUNTRIES.

BUT EACH ONE IS UNIQUE AS CORRESPONDENT DAVID McKENZIE NOW REPORTS.

>> AN EXTRAORDINARY PLEA FOR INTERNATIONAL HELP.

THE OUSTED PRESIDENT OF GABON AND HOUSE ARREST.

>> TO TELL THEM TO MAKE NOISE, TO MAKE NOISE FOR THE PEOPLE HERE.

>> THE NOISE WAS NOT ENOUGH.

ON MONDAY, THE NEW MILITARY LEADER SWORN IN.

"I SOLEMNLY UNDERTAKE ON MY HONOR TO DO MY UTMOST TO ACHIEVE NATIONAL UNITY" SAYS GABON'S JUNTA LEADER.

IS THERE A FEAR THERE IS CONTAGION HAPPENING HERE?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S A FEAR OF CONTAGION.

THERE IS CONTAGION.

>> IT'S JUST THE LATEST DOMINO TO FALL.

IN JUST THREE YEARS, A CASCADE OF MILITARY TAKEOVERS SPREADING ACROSS WEST AND NOW CENTRAL AFRICA.

MOST OF THEM FORMER FRENCH COLONIES, BUT EACH WITH A SPECIFIC COCKTAIL OF GRIEVANCES OVER SECURITY, CORRUPTION, AND A LACK OF OPPORTUNITY.

>> THIS IS A WAVE WHOSE TIME HAS NOT YET CRESTED.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE SEVERAL MORE OF THESE IN THE COMING MONTHS AND YEARS BEFORE WE SEE A KIND OF RETURN TO WHAT WE THOUGHT WAS A NORMAL STATE IN THE KIND OF POST-COLD WAR ERA.

>> THE CONDEMNATIONS HAVE BEEN UNIVERSAL.

THE IMPACT, MINIMAL.

AFRICAN AND WESTERN POWERS FACE A DILEMMA.

IN NIGER, THERE IS APPARENT POPULOUS SUPPORT FOR THE COUP AND DEEP ANGER TOWARDS FRANCE.

PLANS FOR A MILITARY INTERVENTION HAVE STALLED.

FRENCH COUNTERTERROR FORCES HAVE WITHDRAWN FROM TWO OF THE COUNTRIES.

THE POSITION IN NIGER IS TENUOUS AT BEST.

AT SAKE IN NIGER FOR THE U.S., MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR DRONE BASES, CRITICAL IN FIGHTING EXTREMIST GROUPS.

THE STATE DEPARTMENT IS TREADING CAREFULLY.

>> WE CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE FOR A DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION THAT RESPECTS THE CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER IN NIGER.

>> IN GABON, STATE MEDIA SHOWED OFF BAGS OF CASH.

THEY SAY THEY WERE FOUND AT THE SON OF THE PRESIDENT'S HOME.

CNN COULDN'T INDEPENDENTLY VERIFY THESE IMAGES.

FOR MORE THAN 50 YEARS, THEY RAN THIS OIL-RICH NATION.

MUCH OF THEIR WEALTH WAS KEPT IN FRANCE.

MOST GABONESE, YOUNG AND OLD, HAD ONLY KNOWN THE RULE OF THE BONGO FAMILY AND ITS CRONIES.

>> SO FOR THEM, THE MILITARY COUP IN THE SHORT TERM LOOKS MUCH BETTER THAN ANYTHING THAT THEY'VE BEEN LIVING THROUGH.

AND ONE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT BOOST OF IMMEDIATE SUPPORT.

AND WHAT THE MILITARY BRINGS TO THE CONTINENT IS LESS OPPORTUNITIES FOR FREEDOM, FOR DEMOCRACY, THAN MORE.

>> DAVID McKENZIE REPORTING THERE FROM SOUTH AFRICA.

NOW, FOR MORE ON THIS, I'M JOINED BY RAMA YADE, SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR THE ATLANTIC COUNCIL AFRICA CENTER AND FORMER FRENCH SECRETARY FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, RAMA YADE.

THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.

SO I GUESS FIRST AND FOREMOST, SINCE YOU'RE A FORMER FRENCH MINISTER, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION.

WHY IS IT THAT IT SEEMS THAT FRANCE'S POWER IS BEING SO FRONT AND CENTER CHALLENGED THERE RIGHT NOW?

WE'LL GET INTO THE NUMBERS OF THE COUPS AND THE PLACES, BUT WHAT IS YOUR FIRST REACTION TO THAT?

>> YEAH, IT SEEMS THAT THE MILITARY POWERS, THEY EXCHANGE THE RECIPE OF THE BEST COUP IN AFRICA WITH EACH OTHER.

I HAVE VISITED MOST OF THESE COUNTRIES WHEN I WAS SECRETARY IN CHARGE OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND HUMAN RIGHTS IN FRANCE, THAT'S TRUE.

BUT IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT MOST OF THESE COUP HAPPEN IN EX-FRENCH COLONIES.

THERE ARE MANY REASONS OF THAT.

FIRST, THERE IS SOME PAST COLONIAL GRIEVANCES ABOUT THE OLD FRENCH PRESENCE IN THESE COUNTRIES.

AND YOU KNOW THAT WHEN THEY LEFT, AFTER THE INDEPENDENCE DAYS, THEY MAINTAINED MILITARY BASES AND DEFENSE BASES IN THESE COUNTRIES.

ECONOMICALLY SPEAKING, IT'S THE SAME WITH THE CURRENCY OF MOST OF THESE COUNTRIES.

THESE PEOPLE WANT TO BE REALLY INDEPENDENT ACTUALLY, AND THERE IS ALSO A FAILURE WHEN IT COMES TO THE FIGHT AGAINST THE JIHADIST MOVEMENT IN THE SOHIELIAN COUNTRIES.

I THINK ALL THESE REGIONS BROUGHT TOGETHER EXPLAIN WHY YOU HAVE THESE ANTI-FRENCH SENTIMENTS.

THERE'S ALSO ON THE POLITICAL SIDE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE FRENCH-STYLE DEMOCRATIC CULTURE BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, THE FRENCH GOVERNMENT STANDS FOR DEMOCRACY IN NIGER.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME.

>> Announcer: SUPPORTS COUNTRIES LIKE CHAD OR EVEN GABON, WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW WITH THE POSSIBILITY TO DISCUSS WITH THE COUP LEADERS IN GABON TOO.

>> LET'S FOCUS ON GABON BECAUSE THE MILITARY JUNTA LEADER, WHO WAS HEAD OF THE PRESIDENTIAL GUARD, WAS SWORN IN.

NOW, HE SAYS INTERIM PRESIDENT, AND THIS IS WHAT HE SAID DURING HIS SWEARING IN.

WE WILL PLAY HIS SPEECH, A LITTLE BIT OF IT.

>> Translator: THE DISSOLUTION OF THE INSTITUTIONS OF THE REPUBLIC IS TEMPORARY.

THE AIM IS TO REORGANIZE THEM TO MAKE THEM MORE DEMOCRATIC TOOLS, MORE IN LINE WITH INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS IN TERMS OF RESPECT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS, FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOMS, DEMOCRACY, AND THE RULE OF LAW.

BUT ALSO IN THE FIGHT AGAINST CORRUPTION, WHICH HAS BECOME COMMONPLACE IN OUR COUNTRY, MONEY LAUNDERING, AND ABOVE ALL THE PRESERVATION OF THE ENVIRONMENT, WHICH IS A BATTLE DEAR TO OUR COUNTRY.

>> SO HE SAID THAT WHEN HE TOOK POWER, BUT HE SAID THE SAME THINGS ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS IN HIS FANCY RED OUTFIT WHEN HE WAS SWORN IN YESTERDAY.

THE QUESTION IS DO YOU BELIEVE IT?

I MEAN SINCE WHEN HAS THE LEADER OF A MILITARY COUP ACTUALLY FOLLOWED THROUGH ON DELIVERING EITHER ECONOMIC SUCCESS OR HUMAN RIGHTS SUCCESS OR ANY OF THE THINGS THAT THE PEOPLE, I GUESS LEGITIMATELY, FEEL THAT THEY WANT?

>> YEAH, THAT WAS A VERY QUICK SWEARING IN ON MONDAY IN ORDER, I GUESS, TO LEGITIMATE HIS POWER VERY QUICKLY, BUT ALSO TO REASSURE THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S WHY IT HAPPENED LESS THAN ONE WEEK AFTER OUSTING THE FORMER GABONESE PRESIDENT.

BUT IT WAS A WEIRD SWEARING IN FOR THREE REASONS.

FIRST, BECAUSE HE DID THAT IN FRONT OF A PACKED ROOM OF FORMER OFFICIALS OF GABON, WHO SEEMED HAPPY TO BE THERE.

TWO, THE SECOND REASON IS THE NEW PRESIDENT OF THE TRANSITION IS A MEMBER OF THE OLIGARCHY.

HE USED TO BE THE COUSIN OF THE FORMER AND DEPOSED PRESIDENT, ALI BONGO.

AND, THREE, YOU'RE RIGHT.

THERE IS -- THE MAIN OPPOSITION, HE CLAIMS THE POWER AFTER THE RECENT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN GABON, AND HE QUESTIONS THE OUTCOME, THE RESULTS OF THIS ELECTION.

BUT NOBODY CARES ABOUT HIM.

WHEN IT COMES TO DEMOCRACY, THE OPPOSITION SHOULD BE AT THE HEART OF THE CONVERSATIONS RIGHT NOW, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE.

AND SAME IN THE OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE A COUP HAPPENED.

SO THERE'S ABSOLUTELY SOMETHING WEIRD HERE, AND YOU'RE RIGHT.

WE ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH SUCCESSFUL JUNTAS WHEN IT COMES TO DEVELOPMENT OR EVEN RESTORING DEMOCRACY IN THE COUNTRY.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT DEMOCRACY BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN POINTED OUT THAT WHAT HAPPENED IN GABON MAY BE DIFFERENT TO WHAT HAPPENED IN NIGER.

IN FACT, I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK WITH THE EU HIGH REPRESENTATIVE FOR FOREIGN AND SECURITY AFFAIRS, JOSEP BORRELL, ABOUT IT.

HE SAID NOT ALL COUPS ARE EQUAL.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> IT WAS AN INSTITUTIONAL COUP BECAUSE ELECTIONS WERE STOLEN, BECAUSE THE ELECTION HAD SO MANY PITFALLS THAT IT WAS ALSO NO MILITARY COUP IS A SOLUTION, BUT NO MILITARY COUP IS EQUAL TO THE OTHER, AND IT HAS TO BE JUDGED ACCORDING WITH THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

I CANNOT SAY THAT GABON WAS A FULL DEMOCRACY WITH A FAMILY RULING THE COUNTRY FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS.

>> SO WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT, BASICALLY SUGGESTING THAT NIGER WAS MORE DEMOCRATIC, GABON OBVIOUSLY WASN'T, AND THEREFORE, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T MAKE THE JUDGMENTS?

>> IT'S THE SAME TREND OBVIOUSLY, BUT IT'S NOT THE SAME KIND OF COUP, THAT'S RIGHT.

IT SEEMS THAT FOR GABON, AFTER SEEING THAT IT WAS SO EASY TO MAKE A COUP DESPITE THE, YOU KNOW, THE PROTESTS COMING FROM THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, THE COUP LEADERS ARE STILL THERE IN NIGER, IN MALI, IN BURKINA FASO.

THEY ARE STILL THERE.

AND THEN THIS EASY WAY TO SUCCEED IN MAKING THIS COUP MAY HAVE ENCOURAGED THE PEOPLE YOU SEE ON YOUR SCREENS TO DO THEIR COUP.

BUT EVEN IF IT'S THE SAME TREND, IT'S NOT THE SAME IN GABON.

GABON IS A RICH OIL EMIRATE AND PETROL STATE FIRST.

TWO, IT'S IN CENTRAL AFRICA.

THERE'S NO JIHADISTS THERE.

IT'S NOT ABOUT LOSING THE CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY, SO IT'S VERY DIFFERENT.

AND I THINK THAT THE TWO MAIN COMMON POINTS BEYOND THIS JIHADIST MOVEMENT THAT THREATENED THE SILENT COUNTRIES, YOU HAVE FIRST THE EASY WAY THE COUP HAPPENED PREVIOUSLY AND CREATED THESE COUP LEADERS IN GABON TO DO THE SAME.

THE SECOND REASON IS WHAT WE JUST MENTIONED, THE PRESENCE OF THE FORMER FRENCH COLONIAL POWER AND THE FACT THAT THE POPULATION IS FED UP WITH UNDERDEVELOPMENT.

AND IN GABON, YOU KNOW THAT EVEN IF IT'S A RICH OIL COUNTRY, THE PEOPLE -- THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE LIVES UNDER THE LINE OF POVERTY.

>> MM-HMM.

>> SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT MATTERS A LOT.

BUT IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PROTESTERS YOU SEE CELEBRATING, THE NEW MASTERS, THE POPULATION SUPPORTS THEM.

IN FACT, THEY ARE HAPPY TO GET RID OF THE FORMER POWER, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE THE BONGO FAMILY HAS BEEN RUNNING GABON FOR 56 YEARS.

IT'S A LOT.

BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY AGREE WITH WHAT THE JUNTA OR THE NEW MASTERS WILL DO.

AS WE SAID PREVIOUSLY, THE PROBLEM IS HOW TO FIGHT AGAINST POVERTY, HOW TO RESTORE DEMOCRACY.

AND TO DO THAT, I THINK IT'S MORE THAN SEIZING THE POWER THAT IS IMPORTANT HERE.

>> SO IT'S BEEN SAID THAT THERE SHOULD BE AN AFRICAN SOLUTION FOR THIS AFRICAN PROBLEM.

SO WHAT CAN BE THE MAIN GROUPINGS, WHETHER IT'S THE AFRICAN UNION, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE, WHAT CAN THEY DO BECAUSE THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE BEING LISTENED TO AT ALL BY THE COUP LEADERS.

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, AFRICA HAS CHANGED.

AFRICANS HAVE CHANGED A LOT.

EVEN IF WE ARE HERE TALKING ABOUT POOR COUNTRIES AND WEAK GOVERNMENTS, WE HAVE A VERY STRONG CIVIL SOCIETY EMPOWERED BY SOCIAL MEDIA.

NOTHING CAN BE -- CAN REMAIN HIDDEN.

AND PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF DOUBLE STANDARDS.

THEY ARE AWARE OF CHEAP STANDARDS, AND THEY DEMAND MORE THAN EVER.

YOU HAVE 55 COUNTRIES IN AFRICA, AND MOST OF THEM ARE EXPERIENCING A NEW REALITY.

YOU KNOW THAT BEYOND THIS COUP AND THESE DIFFICULT AND CHALLENGING SITUATIONS, AFRICA IS RISING ON THE GLOBAL STAGE, YOU KNOW, WITH HIGH LEVELS OF GROWTH RATE ECONOMICALLY SPEAKING.

THE CONTINENT IS BUILDING THE LARGEST FREE TRADE AREA IN THE WORLD.

AND YOU HAVE THESE GLOBAL -- THIS COMPETITION BETWEEN GLOBAL POWERS THAT INCLUDES RUSSIA, CHINA, AND ALSO THE U.S. ON THE CONTINENT.

SO THAT SAID, THE ORIGINAL ORGANIZATIONS IN AFRICA ARE STRUGGLING BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THERE IS A CHALLENGE BECAUSE OF THESE DOUBLE STANDARDS.

HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE GOING TO INTERVENE IN NIGER BECAUSE OF THE COUP, BUT YOU DON'T DO THE SAME IN GABON?

>> OKAY.

>> WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO SITUATIONS?

THAT IS A QUESTION THIS CIVIL SOCIETY COULD ASK TO THEMSELVES AND TO THESE ORIGINAL ORGANIZATIONS.

>> LASTLY, THE FORMER FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER HAS SAID SYMBOLICALLY AND POLITICALLY, THIS SITUATION MARKS A STRONG DECLINE FOR FRANCE.

UNFORTUNATELY THERE'S A RISK THINGS WILL DETERIORATE.

I COULD SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT CONCERNS FOR THE INFLUENCE OF THE WEST, LIKE AMERICA SEEMS TO BE BEING OUT-INFLUENCED BY RUSSIA AND CHINA IN AFRICA.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR RELATIONS BETWEEN THE WEST AND AFRICA?

>> YOU KNOW, AFRICANS ARE HUNGRY FOR CHANGE, AND OBVIOUSLY NO MATTER HOW AND ON THE ONE HAND, WE NOTICED THEIR WILLINGNESS TO OUST THE FORMER COLONIAL POWER IN FRANCE, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT'S TRUE.

WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW WITH THE COUP MARKS THE END OF AN ERA FOR FRANCE.

AND RUSSIA TRIES TO SEIZE OPPORTUNITIES WHEN IT'S POSSIBLE.

IN THE PAST MONTH, IT WAS WITH WAGNER.

OF COURSE WAGNER TRIED TO WORK WITH MALI AND OTHER SILENT COUNTRIES IN THE FIGHT AGAINST JIHADISTS.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> AND OF COURSE WITH WHAT'S GOING ON IN MOSCOW RIGHT NOW BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, WAGNER AND PUTIN, IT'S MORE COMPLICATED.

>> OKAY.

>> BUT I AM SURE THAT THE RUSSIANS WILL DO THEIR BEST TO MAINTAIN THEIR INFLUENCE ON THE AFRICAN CONTINENT, AND ESPECIALLY IN THE WEST.

>> YES.

RAMA YADE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THAT ANALYSIS.

>>> NOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, THE CHEROKEE NATION IS FIGHTING FOR A CENTURIES-OLD PROMISE TO FINALLY BE UPHELD.

THE SAME TREATY THAT FORCED THEM TO GIVE UP THEIR LAND IN 1835 ALSO PROMISED THEM THE RIGHT TO HAVE REPRESENTATION IN CONGRESS.

KIMBERLY TEEHEE HAS BEEN DESIGNATED THE FIRST CHEROKEE NATION DELEGATE, BUT SHE IS STILL WAITING TO BE SEATED IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

SHE'S JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO EXPLAIN THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE TREATY.

>> DELEGATE TEEHEE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU'VE HAD A DISTINGUISHED CAREER AS AN ADVOCATE, AS AN ACTIVIST.

BEFORE WE GET INTO THAT, CAN I JUST ASK YOU, IF YOU DON'T MIND, LIKE WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP, WHAT WERE YOU TOLD ABOUT YOUR HERITAGE?

DO YOU REMEMBER?

>> YOU KNOW, I WAS BORN IN CHICAGO, YOU KNOW.

LET ME TELL YOU WHY BECAUSE THIS HAS BEARING ON YOUR QUESTION.

BECAUSE MY PARENTS PARTICIPATED IN A FEDERAL INDIAN RELOCATION PROGRAM.

IT WAS A PROGRAM DESIGNED TO ASSIMILATE THE INDIANS BEHIND THIS NOTION OF KILL THE INDIAN, SAVE THE MAN.

SO ASSIMILATE THEM INTO MAINSTREAM SOCIETY.

YOU KNOW, THE CULTURE WAS SO CONNECTED TO US.

BUT MY PARENTS WERE RELOCATED TO CHICAGO, WHERE I WAS BORN.

AND THAT POLICY UNDERESTIMATED THE ATTACHMENTS THAT CHEROKEES HAVE TO THEIR COMMUNITIES, THAT NATIVE AMERICANS HAVE TO THEIR COMMUNITIES.

SO THE FAILURE OF THAT POLICY IS WHEN YOU MOVE BACK, YOU KNOW, TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM.

SO WE MOVED BACK TO OKLAHOMA WHEN I WAS A YOUNG GIRL.

AND I DIDN'T KNOW ANY DIFFERENT.

BOTH OF MY PARENTS, I'M STILL BLESSED TO HAVE THEM, SPOKE CHEROKEE BEFORE THEY SPOKE ENGLISH.

THEIR FLUENT FIRST LANGUAGE CHEROKEE SPEAKERS.

THEY WERE RAISED ON THEIR CHEROKEE LAND ALLOTMENTS.

THEY BOTH WENT TO CHEROKEE BOARDING SCHOOL.

I GREW UP IN A HOUSEHOLD THAT SPOKE CHEROKEE.

GRANDPARENTS ONLY SPOKE CHEROKEE.

CHURCHES WHERE THE SERMON WAS JUST IN CHEROKEE.

YOU KNOW, WE PARTICIPATED IN OUR DANCES.

WE USED OUR CHEROKEE TRADITIONAL SPIRITUAL LEADERS FOR MEDICINE BUT ALSO THE SPIRITUAL ASPECT OF IT.

WE ALSO WENT TO CHURCH.

SO I'VE LIVED IN THIS DUALITY ALL MY LIFE, AND I DON'T KNOW ANY DIFFERENT.

AND SO IT'S, YOU KNOW, EVEN WHEN I WENT THROUGH SCHOOL, MY PARENTS, YOU KNOW, OFTEN SENT ME TO CHEROKEE NATION FOR INTERNSHIPS, FOR ALL KINDS OF YOUTH PROGRAMS SO I WOULD STAY IMMERSED IN MY CULTURE AND MY HERITAGE BECAUSE THOSE THINGS WOULD OTHERWISE NOT BE PROVIDED TO ME IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.

>> YOU'VE BEEN DESIGNATED BY THE CHEROKEE NATION AS THE CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATE-DESIGNEE, AND THE TREATY THAT LED TO THE REMOVAL OF THE CHEROKEE PEOPLE FROM THEIR TRADITIONAL LANDS TO WHAT IS NOW THE CHEROKEE NATION ALSO INCLUDED THE PROVISION THAT THERE BE A DELEGATE, A NON-VOTING DELEGATE, TO THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT HOW THAT CAME ABOUT?

>> WELL, IN THE 19th CENTURY, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT THE UNITED STATES' RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CHEROKEE NATION WAS PRETTY ROCKY, WITH WESTERN EXPANSION, COTTON, GOLD, THERE WAS GREAT PRESSURE PUT UPON THE UNITED STATES TO USE ITS TREATY-MAKING AUTHORITY TO REMOVE THE INDIANS WHO WERE IN THE WAY OF THOSE EXPANSION EFFORTS AND GOALS OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND SO THERE WAS A SMALL FACTION OF CHEROKEES WHO ILLEGALLY SIGNED THIS TREATY WITH THE UNITED STATES.

THE TREATY WHICH WAS ULTIMATELY RATIFIED BY THE SENATE AND SIGNED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AT THE TIME, ANDREW JACKSON.

SO TO THE UNITED STATES, IT WAS A VERY VALID TREATY.

IT'S ONE THAT'S CONSIDERED THE LAW TODAY IN THE UNITED STATES, TOOK THE FIRST STEPS IN IMPLEMENTATION OF THAT TREATY WHEN THEY FORCIBLY REMOVED OUR PEOPLE ON THE TRAIL OF TEARS, WHERE A QUARTER OF OUR POPULATION PERISHED OF MOSTLY ELDERLY AND CHILDREN.

THAT'S THE QUICKEST WAY I CAN GIVE YOU CONTEXT.

BUT INCLUDED IN THAT REMOVAL TREATY WAS ARTICLE 7, THIS DELEGATE RIGHT THAT YOU DESCRIBED EARLIER.

>> AND THAT DELEGATE RIGHT HAS NEVER ACTUALLY BEEN OBSERVED.

IT'S NEVER BEEN RESPECTED.

SO THE REMOVAL WAS RESPECTED, BUT THE SEATING OF THE DELEGATE WAS NOT, WHICH BRINGS US TO THE CURRENT MOMENT.

THE NATION HAS DESIGNATED YOU AS THIS PERSON TO FILL THIS SEAT.

WHY AREN'T YOU THERE?

>> WELL, I THINK A PART OF THE HISTORY AND THE STORY THAT WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER WAS THE CONTINUATION OF THE CHEROKEE NATION IN REBUILDING MODE.

IT TOOK A REALLY LONG TIME TO REBUILD THE NATION, AND CONGRESS HAD A ROLE TO PLAY HERE BECAUSE AFTER REMOVAL, CONGRESS KEPT PASSING LAW AFTER LAW DISMANTLING THE CHEROKEE NATION, REQUIRING ALLOTMENT OF OUR LANDS, TAKING AWAY OUR ABILITY TO BE GOVERNED BY OUR OWN LAWS, EVEN ELECTING OUR OWN CHIEF.

IT TOOK AN ACT OF CONGRESS TO GIVE US BACK THAT AUTHORITY.

THAT'S IN THE '70s.

THAT'S IN MY LIFETIME AND YOUR LIFETIME.

IF YOU LOOK BACK AT ALL THAT HAPPENED TO DISMANTLE US AND THEN TO REBUILD US AND PUT US IN A PLACE WHERE WE COULD ACTUALLY START FOCUSING ON OTHER THINGS.

SO, YOU KNOW, IN THE '70s, CONGRESS STARTED PASSING LAWS CALLED SELF-DETERMINATION LAWS TO HELP TRIBES WITH THE RESOURCES THEY NEED TO REBUILD A NATION, TO BRING BACK THEIR HOMELANDS, TO PROVIDE FOR THEIR CITIZENS.

YOU LOOK BACK AT ALL THAT HISTORY, BUT YOU ALSO REALIZE IT WASN'T UNTIL THE 2000s THAT OUR CHIEF HAD THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO APPOINT A DELEGATE.

I THINK THAT'S A NOT TO ALL THE REBUILDING THAT WE HAD DONE TO GET TO A PLACE WHERE WE COULD FINALLY FOCUS ON THIS TREATY RIGHT, WHICH IS STILL A VALID RIGHT TODAY.

>> WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR YOU TO BE SEATED AS A NON-VOTING DELEGATE?

BY THAT I MEAN PEOPLE IN CERTAIN PARTS OF THE COUNTRY ARE FAMILIAR WITH THIS.

RESIDENTS OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, OF GUAM, OF PUERTO RICO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE VIRGIN ISLANDS.

THEY HAVE NON-VOTING DELEGATES.

THEY DON'T HAVE FLOOR VOTING RIGHTS BUT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK ON THE FLOOR GENERALLY.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE SEATED IN COMMITTEE AND TO VOTE IN COMMITTEE.

WHAT IS THE IMPORTANCE OF THAT IN YOUR VIEW TO THE CHEROKEE NATION AND, FRANKLY, TO NATIVE PEOPLE MORE BROADLY?

>> I THINK FIRST OF ALL, LET'S LOOK AT THE FACT THAT THE TREATY IS THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND.

IT IS THE FEDERAL LAW TODAY.

AND BECAUSE THE SENATE RATIFIED THE TREATY AND BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT SIGNED IT INTO LAW, SEATING CHEROKEE NATION'S DELEGATE ONLY REQUIRES HOUSE ACTION.

THE HOUSE CAN SEAT THE DELEGATE BY RESOLUTION.

YES, CONGRESS CAN PASS A LAW TO SEAT THE DELEGATE TOO, BUT WE DON'T NEED THE SENATE TO ACT AGAIN BECAUSE IT DID THAT NEARLY 200 YEARS AGO.

AND SO WE'RE SEEKING THE SIMILAR AUTHORITIES OF THE DELEGATES THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED OF THE U.S.

TERRITORIES, WHICH, YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE DELEGATES THAT WE'VE TALKED TO HAVE EXPRESSED SUPPORT FOR SEATING THE CHEROKEE NATION DELEGATE.

BUT WE'RE SEEKING THAT PARTICULAR AUTHORITY BECAUSE WE DO KNOW THAT EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE LIMITATIONS ON VOTING ON THE HOUSE FLOOR AND FINAL PASSAGE, THERE IS STILL A GREAT DEAL THAT DELEGATES CAN DO THROUGH THE DELIBERATIVE PROCESS OF THE CONGRESS IN MAKING SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE AND GETTING LAWS PASSED THAT IMPACT OUR COMMUNITIES.

>> I ALSO WANT TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT YOU'VE ALREADY BEEN IN WASHINGTON.

I MEAN YOU HAD AN IMPORTANT POSITION IN THE OBAMA WHITE HOUSE.

IN FACT, YOU WERE THE FIRST PERSON TO FULFILL THIS POSITION AS A KIND OF A REPRESENTATIVE OF NATIVE NATIONS, YOU KNOW, MORE BROADLY IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

WHY DOES THAT SEAT IN COMMITTEE, WHY DOES THAT MATTER SO MUCH IN YOUR OPINION?

>> I THINK A COUPLE REASONS.

ONE IS REPRESENTATION MATTERS.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE AT OUR BEST WHENEVER THESE DECISION-MAKING BODIES ACTUALLY REFLECT THE PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE SERVING.

NUMBER TWO IS THAT THE DELIBERATIVE PROCESS OF A BILL BECOMING THE LAW IS REALLY THE BEHIND THE SCENES ACTION OF WHERE THINGS GET DONE.

COMMITTEE WORK IS SO IMPORTANT.

YOU KNOW, BEING ABLE TO INTRODUCE LEGISLATION, BEING ABLE TO VOTE IN COMMITTEE, BEING ABLE TO SIT IN A COMMITTEE.

AND AS THOSE BILLS GET DELIBERATED AND VOTED ON.

THE REASON THERE'S A LEGAL DISTINCTION BETWEEN A DELEGATE AND A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE HOUSE IS THAT FINAL VOTE ON FINAL PASSAGE BECAUSE THAT FINAL WHATEVER HAPPENED IN COMMITTEE, OR THEY CAN CONCUR WITH IT AND MOVE IT ON.

SO I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT PROCESS, ONE THAT I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF WORKING ON THE HILL FOR SO MANY YEARS AND WORKING AT MYSELF.

I CAN APPRECIATE WHAT ALL HAPPENS IN ORDER TO GET A BILL TO THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE TO FINALLY GET VOTED ON.

>> CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT YOUR TOP PRIORITIES ARE?

IF YOU WERE TO BE SEATED IN THE CURRENT SESSION, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT WOULD SOME OF YOUR TOP PRIORITIES BE?

>> TOP PRIORITY IS FUNDING, APPROPRIATIONS.

LOOK, THE UNITED STATES HAS A LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY TO INDIAN TRIBES, AND A LOT OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY HINGES UPON THE FEDERAL DOLLARS THAT THEY APPROPRIATE TO TRIBES.

WE LIVE IN A CONSTANT STATE OF UNCERTAINTY BECAUSE CONGRESS, YOU KNOW, IS OFTEN TALKING ABOUT GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWNS, WHICH ARE SO DISRUPTIVE TO TRIBES.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT FEDERAL DOLLARS THAT FLOW TO INDIAN TRIBES, YOU KNOW, OVER 90%, PROBABLY 95% OF THOSE DOLLARS ARE CONSIDERED DISCRETIONARY DOLLARS.

IT IS IMPERATIVE WE PUT A MECHANISM IN PLACE THAT ALLOWS FOR EITHER FORWARD FUNDING TO TRIBES OR, IN SOME INSTANCES, MANDATORY FUNDS TO TRIBES SO THAT TRIBES ARE NOT VICTIMIZED BY THIS PROCESS OF UNCERTAINTY.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE LOOKING AT THAT NOW WHEN CONGRESS GOES BACK INTO SESSION IN SEPTEMBER AS A POSSIBLE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN.

I MEAN THOSE IMPACT US SEVERELY.

BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT, LIKE OTHER GOVERNMENTS, WE LOOK AT OUR INFRASTRUCTURE NEEDS, WATER NEEDS, HEALTH CARE NEEDS, EDUCATION NEEDS, FARM BILL NEEDS, AND OF COURSE WHAT WE REMEMBER UNIQUELY BEING A CHEROKEE NATION, IS PRESERVING THINGS LIKE OUR LANGUAGE AND GETTING THE RESOURCES THAT ARE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO PROTECT AND PRESERVE OUR LANGUAGE.

>> SO TO THIS QUESTION OF REPRESENTATION, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THOSE WHO ARGUE THAT, IN EFFECT, THIS WOULD GIVE MEMBERS OF THE CHEROKEE NATION KIND OF DOUBLE REPRESENTATION?

RESIDENTS OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA DON'T -- THAT'S IT.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANYBODY ELSE TO REPRESENT THEIR INTERESTS EXCEPT THEIR ELECTED DELEGATE WHEREAS AT LEAST MEMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO LIVE ON CHEROKEE NATION LANDS HAVE THE ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE WHO ALREADY SITS IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE, FOR EXAMPLE, AND A MEMBER OF CONGRESS.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE SAY IS THERE'S NO DUAL REPRESENTATION VIOLATION BECAUSE WE'RE SEEKING TO HAVE A DELEGATE SEATED IN THE CONGRESS, NOT A REPRESENTATIVE.

YOU'RE RIGHT, WE HAVE CHEROKEE CITIZENS.

WE HAVE OVER 460,000 CHEROKEE CITIZENS IN THIS COUNTRY, AND WE ARE IN EVERY STATE.

AND THEY WILL STILL GO TO THEIR MEMBER OF CONGRESS FOR THEIR CONSTITUENT NEEDS IN THEIR CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE UNDERSTAND THAT THIS TREATY RIGHT IS CHEROKEE NATION, THE GOVERNMENT'S TREATY RIGHT.

SO THE ELECTED LEADERS OF THE CHEROKEE NATION ARE WHO NOMINATED ME AND CONFIRMED MY APPOINTMENT.

AND MY REPRESENTATION OF THEM IS TO REPRESENT THE GOVERNMENTAL INTERESTS OF THE NATION IN THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS.

IN A LOT OF WAYS, IT'S AKIN TO A U.S.

AMBASSADOR WHO REPRESENTS THE INTEREST OF THE NATION BEFORE ANOTHER NATION.

AND SO THAT'S THE LEGAL DISTINCTION, AND THAT'S THE DISTINCTION THAT I MAKE BETWEEN CHEROKEE NATION'S DELEGATE AND ITS ROLE AND ITS REPRESENTATION OF THE GOVERNMENT ITSELF.

>> AND WHAT DO YOU SAY -- IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE ARE OTHER BANDS WHO CLAIM THIS DELEGATE RIGHT AS WELL, THAT YOUR BAND OF THE CHEROKEE NATION ISN'T THE ONLY ONE, THAT THERE ARE OTHER BANDS WHO BELIEVE THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO APPOINT THIS DELEGATE.

HOW DOES THAT GET SORTED OUT?

>> YOU KNOW, YOU CAN JUST LOOK TO THE TREATIES THEMSELVES.

THE TREATIES ARE BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE CHEROKEE NATION, AND WE ARE THE CHEROKEE NATION.

WE HAVE, THROUGHOUT TIME, CONTINUOUSLY BEEN CONSIDERED CHEROKEE NATION.

THE COURTS AND CONGRESS THAT HAVE INTERPRETED OUR TREATIES OF THE PAST, THAT HAVE LEGISLATED ON MATTERS SPECIFIC TO CHEROKEE NATION, HAVE CONSISTENTLY ALWAYS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT WE ARE THE CHEROKEE NATION THAT THE UNITED STATES TREATED WITH SO MANY YEARS AGO AND CONTINUES TO WORK WITH TODAY.

SO FOR THOSE OTHER TRIBES THAT CLAIM TO HAVE OUR TREATY RIGHT, ALL I CAN SAY IS THE TREATY IS WITH THE CHEROKEE NATION.

THOSE TWO TRIBES DIDN'T EXIST AT THE TIME THIS TREATY WAS SIGNED AS THEIR OWN POLITICAL ENTITY.

AND SO THEY'RE ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINION, BUT WE HAVE A DUTY TO CORRECT ANY FALSE INTERPRETATION OF HISTORY AND LAW.

>> I RECOGNIZE YOUR POINT IS THAT THIS TREATY SPECIFICALLY DESIGNATED THIS SEAT FOR MEMBERS OF THE CHEROKEE NATION.

THERE ARE MORE THAN, WHAT, 500 RECOGNIZED, YOU KNOW, TRIBES IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND I THINK WE CAN ALL, YOU KNOW, RECOGNIZE THAT THE PROCESS BY WHICH CERTAIN TRIBES ARE RECOGNIZED AND CERTAIN ONES WERE NOT IS ARGUABLY RACIST AND FLAWED.

BUT EVEN HAVING SAID THAT, IS THERE AN ARGUMENT THAT OTHER TRIBAL NATIONS HAVE ABOUT REPRESENTATION?

I MEAN WOULD YOU BE THEIR REPRESENTATIVE AS WELL OR NOT?

AND COULD THAT BE PART OF THE HOLDUP THAT PEOPLE WHO BELONG TO OTHER NATIONS FEEL THAT PERHAPS THAT THEY ARE DISADVANTAGED IN A WAY AND THAT THEY EQUALLY DESERVE THIS KIND OF RECOGNITION?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING?

>> YEAH.

WELL, CERTAINLY CHEROKEE NATION'S TREATY RIGHT IS JUST THAT, RIGHT?

WE HAVE A TREATY THAT IS THE LAW OF THE LAND, RIGHT?

WE ALSO KNOW THAT THERE ARE A COUPLE OF OTHER TREATIES OUT THERE THAT APPLY TO OTHER TRIBES.

SO THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE A FLOODGATE OF TRIBES SEEKING TO HAVE THEIR TREATY RIGHT ACKNOWLEDGED.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I TOOK AWAY FROM THE HEARING IN THE HOUSE RULES COMMITTEE LAST NOVEMBER WAS WHEN, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE MEMBERS ON THE DAIS SAID AN OBSERVED CONSIDERATION OF OTHER TRIBES THAT MAY HAVE SIMILAR RIGHTS, YOU KNOW, AND THE EXAMINATION OF THOSE RIGHTS SHOULD NOT IN ANY WAY DELAY CHEROKEE NATION'S RIGHT.

OURS IS THE MOST CLEAR LANGUAGE.

WHY NOT START WITH CHEROKEE NATION, THE MOST CLEAR LANGUAGE IN THE TREATY, AND LET'S SHATTER THAT GLASS CEILING AND GET SEATED.

>> I THINK PEOPLE FORGET PERHAPS JUST HOW POLITICALLY DIVERSE NATIVE AMERICANS IN GENERAL AND MEMBERS OF THE CHEROKEE NATION IN PARTICULAR ARE.

THERE ARE SOME VERY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS AMONG YOUR MEMBERS AND SOME VERY CONSERVATIVE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, YOU KNOW, AMONG YOUR MEMBERS, AMONG YOUR ENROLLED MEMBERS, AND ALSO WHO REPRESENT YOU IN OTHER WAYS.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN?

>> WELL, I THINK EDUCATION.

YOU KNOW, WE FOCUSED OUR PREVIOUS EFFORTS ON LEADERSHIP, ON COMMITTEES, ON COMMITTEE STAFF.

WE'VE HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH THE MAJORITY CAUCUS, THIS PARTICULAR HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, AND THEY'VE ASKED FOR OUR HELP TO EDUCATE MEMBERS.

YOU KNOW, WE -- THERE'S A LOT OF MESSAGING THAT HAS TO TAKE PLACE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND WE DON'T MIND TELLING OUR STORY OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL IT'S ABSORBED, UNTIL IT'S APPRECIATED, AND ACTED UPON.

I WAS ABLE TO BE MENTORED BY THE FORMER CHIEF OF THE CHEROKEE NATION, WILMA MANKILLER.

SHE'S A YELLOW DOG DEMOCRAT THROUGH AND THROUGH, THE MOST PROGRESSIVE PERSON THAT I'D EVER MET IN MY LIFE AT THE TIME.

ONE OF HER DEAREST FRIENDS IS ALSO A FORMER CHIEF OF THE CHEROKEE NATION, WHO SHE SERVED AS DEPUTY CHIEF TOO, ROSS SWIMMER.

HE WAS APPOINTED BY RONALD REAGAN TO BE THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INDIAN AFFAIRS.

THEY HAD THIS FRIENDSHIP.

HE WAS CONSERVATIVE, STAUNCH REPUBLICAN, AND SHE WAS THIS YELLOW DOG DEMOCRAT, BUT THEY LEARNED HOW TO WORK TOGETHER.

THEY LEARNED HOW TO WORK IN A BIPARTISAN WAY, AND THAT'S WHAT WAS TAUGHT TO ME.

YOU KNOW, YOU MIGHT CHOOSE A POLITICAL SIDE, BUT YOU HAVE TO WORK ON THESE ISSUES WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE.

I'M IN A RED STATE AS YOU MENTIONED, AND WE HAVE CHEROKEES WHO ARE REPUBLICANS, WE HAVE CHEROKEES WHO ARE DEMOCRATS AND INDEPENDENTS.

WE HAVE A GOVERNOR THAT'S REPUBLICAN, AND WE HAVE A CHEROKEE CITIZEN WHO IS A U.S.

SENATOR RIGHT NOW.

AND WE WORK SO WELL WITH OUR CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION ESPECIALLY.

SO MY JOB WILL BE TO CONTINUE TO WORK WITH THEM AND TO MESSAGE TO THEM IN A WAY THEY CAN APPRECIATE OUR ISSUES AND TO CONTINUE TO PROVE THAT WE WORK IN A BIPARTISAN FASHION.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, YOU SAID THAT NATIVE PEOPLE ARE PATIENT, MEMBERS OF THE CHEROKEE NATION ARE PATIENT.

I GUESS YOU'D HAVE TO BE.

BUT DO YOU THINK YOU WILL SEE A DELEGATE FROM THE CHEROKEE NATION SEATED IN YOUR LIFETIME?

DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE YOU?

>> I THINK I WILL SEE A CHEROKEE NATION DELEGATE SEATED IN MY LIFETIME, AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE ME.

I WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR THIS.

THE DELEGATE OF THE CHEROKEE NATION ISN'T ABOUT ME.

IT'S ABOUT THE UNITED STATES KEEPING ITS WORD AND HONORING A TREATY RIGHT AND GIVING SOME MEASURE OF JUSTICE TO THOSE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES SO LONG AGO.

THAT'S MUCH BIGGER THAN I COULD EVER POSSIBLY BE.

SO IF I'M NOT SEATED, THEN I WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT UNTIL MY LAST BREATH TO GET THE CHEROKEE NATION DELEGATE SEATED BECAUSE I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE UNITED STATES OWES TO US, THE CHEROKEE NATION, BUT ALSO OWES TO, YOU KNOW, OTHER TRIBES ACROSS THE COUNTRY BECAUSE IT SAYS, MOST IMPORTANTLY, THAT THE UNITED STATES KEEPS ITS WORD.

>> KIM TEEHEE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHEL.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A BARKING MAD IDEA.

THAT WAS THE DANISH CHAMBER ORCHESTRA WITH THREE FURRY FRIENDS PERFORMING HUNTING SYMPHONY, A LITTLE KNOWN PIECE BY LEOPOLD MOZART.

THE PIECE CALLS FOR DOGS TO BARK IN THE THIRD MOVEMENT.

BUT IT'S RARELY PERFORMED LIVE FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

AUDITIONS WERE HELD LAST SPRING TO FIND THE POOCHES WITH PAW-FECT PITCH.

A ROUND OF A-PAWS FOR THEIR SPIRITED PERFORMANCE.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON OUR PROGRAM EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

♪♪