>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": A LOOK AT JUST HOW THE CLEARLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL TEXAS ABORTION LAW WAS ABLE TO GO INTO EFFECT, WHAT THE PRESIDENT AND OTHERS ARE TRYING TO DO TO STOP IT, AND WHAT'S NEXT IN THE LONG- RUNNING RIGHT-WING CRUSADE TO OVERTURN FEDERAL PROTECTIONS FROM ROE V. WADE ALTOGETHER?

SUFFOLK PROFESSOR AND CONSTITUTIONAL LAW EXPERT RENÉE LANDERS JOINS ME.

WINNING PHILIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN ON HIS NEW BOOK, I ALONE CAN FIX IT, DONALD J. TRUMP'S CATASTROPHIC FINAL YEAR.

AND FINALLY, MASS GENERAL'S DR. LU LU, JUST BACK FROM HAITI, WHICH IS NOW RECOVERING FROM YET ANOTHER DEADLY EARTHQUAKE.

>> Braude: IN THE DAYS SINCE THE REMNANTS OF HURRICANE IDA SUBSEQUENT THROUGH THE NORTHEAST KILLING 45, AN ISIS IN KILLED 13 AMERICANS AND MANY MORE AFGHANS, MANY HAVE ARGUED THESE ARE DISASTERS WE SHOULD HAVE SEEN COMING AND THIS TEN CONSTITUTIONAL UNENDING CASE IN TEXAS THAT MANY DID SEE COMING FROM HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY, LITERALLY.

AS OF LAST WEDNESDAY, IT IS ILLEGAL TO GET, GIVE OR IN ANY WAY AT ALL HELP A PERSON OBTAIN AN ABORTION AFTER SIX WEEKS IN TEXAS.

THAT IS AFTER THE SUPREME COURT REFUSED TO BLOCK A NEW STATE LAW, AND AS CONSERVATIVE MAJORITY IN HIGH COURT OPTED TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY, A COMOR RUSS OF I TOLD YOU SOS RANG OUT.

INCLUDING FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES" EDITORIAL BOARD, WHICH DECLARED THE MOVE STUNNING BUT NOT SURPRISING.

GIVEN NEARLY HALF A CENTURY OF QUOTE CONSTANTLY CHIPPING AWAY AT WOMEN'S RIGHTS TO AN ABORTION, WHICH INCLUDES DONALD TRUMP'S THREE PRO-LIFE APPOINTEES.

INSTEAD OF GIVING GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS THE POWER TO STOP ABORTIONS, THIS LAW PUTS THE POWER IN THE HANDS OF PRIVATE CITIZENS, LETTING THEM SUE ANYONE WHO GETS, GIVES OR HELPS WITH AN ABORTION AND THEY GET $10,000 BUCKS.

THOSE ARE CALLED BOUNTY HUNTERS.

AND WHILE THE COURT COULD STILL TAKE UP FUTURE CHALLENGES TO THE LAW, JOE BIDEN IS PROMISING TO DO ALL HE CAN TO STOP IT ON HIS END.

>> THE MOTION PERNICIOUS THING ABOUT THE TEXAS LAW IT SORT OF CREATES A VIGILANTE SYSTEM, I TOLD THERE ARE POSSIBILITIES WITHIN THE EXISTING LAW TO HAVE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL BE AND SEE WHETHER THERE ARE THINGS THAT CAN BE DONE THAT CAN LIMIT THE INDEPENDENT ACTION OF INDIVIDUALS AND ENFORCING A FEDERAL -- A STATE LAW.

>> Braude: JOINING ME SUFFOLK UNIVERSITY CONSTITUTIONAL LAW EXPERTS REN REN IS ON THE PLANNED PARENTHOOD LEAGUE OF MASSACHUSETTS BOARD.

RENE, GOOD TO SEE YOU, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, JIM.

>> Braude: YOU ARE QUOTED IN THE "BOSTON GLOBE" OF SAYING IT IS HARD TO SAY WHAT THE SUPREME COURT IS ULTIMATELY GOING TO DO.

BUT IF FIVE JUSTICES ALLOW A LAW TO CONTINUE IN PLACE THE THAT MAKES ILLEGAL AN ACT THAT WAS CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED FOR 50 YEARS, WHY SHOULD WE NOT ASSUME THAT THEY ARE INTENDING TO PERMANENTLY DO WHAT THEY HAVE ALREADY TEMPORARILY DONE?

>> WELL, I WOULD LIKE TO GIVE THE COURT THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT AND I THINK THAT WHAT THE -- THE POSITIVE ASPECT OF WHAT THEY DID, AND THERE ARE VERY FEW POSITIVE ASPECTS BETWEEN NOW AND WHEN THE COURT WILL HEAR THE ARGUMENTS IN THE MISSISSIPPI CASE, MAKE A DECISION IN THAT CASE, WHICH ALSO RAISES A SIMILAR ISSUE, ALTHOUGH THE RESTRICTION ISN'T QUITE AS SEVERE, THAT THE COURT WILL SEE HOW THINGS -- WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN TEXAS, AND I THINK THAT THAT WILL GIVE THEM INFORMATION THAT THEY COULD HAVE WAITED TO RECEIVE FROM YOU KNOW, FURTHER LITIGATING THE CASE, BUT CASH AND THAT MIGHT CAUSE THEM TO TAKE -- I AM NOT SAYING THEY WON'T RESTRICT ACCESS TO ABORTION FURTHER, BUT IT MIGHT CAUSE THEM TO TAKE A MORE INCREMENT TALL APPROACH THAN YOU KNOW, JETTISONING BOTH ROE V. WADE.

>> Braude: I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT BUT YOU DON'T NEED TO BE A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE TO KNOW WHAT KIND OF HARM IS GOING TO HAPPEN IF YOU ESSENTIALLY BAN ABORTIONS, WHICH IS VIRTUALLY WHAT THEY DID IN TEXAS, AND THERE ARE MANY CASES WITH THESE MIDNIGHT DOCKET THINGS THEY DO, WHERE THEY HAVE SAID, NO, NO, NO, LIKE RELIGIOUS EXPRESSION CASES IN THE LAST YEAR AROUND THINGS LIKE COVID, AND THE "NEW YORK TIMES", THE "WASHINGTON POST" DID A GREAT EDITORIAL SAYING IF NEW YORK OR CALIFORNIA PASSED A LAW BANNING GUNS DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE SAID, WE WILL TAKE A PASS ON THAT AND DECIDE IT WHEN THE CASE COMES TO IT?

SO ONCE AGAIN, I READ MUCH MORE INTO THIS UNSIGNED RULING THAN YOU DO, APPARENTLY, YES?

>> WELL, I GUESS THAT I WOULD SAY TWO THINGS.

ONE IS THAT CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS DISSENTING OPINION IN THIS CASE ON THE TEXAS ABORTION LAW POINTED OUT THAT -- THE NEED FOR THE COURT TO TREAD VERY CAREFULLY IN THESE AREAS WITH THESE OLD PRECEDENTS.

I THINK HE IS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE INSTITUTIONAL REPUTATION OF THE COURTS.

AND YOU KNOW, USED THE EXAMPLE YOU CITE, I THINK GIVE HIM PAUSE BECAUSE THEN THE COURT JUST LOOKS LIKE ANOTHER POLITICAL ARM OF THE GOVERNMENT AS OPPOSED TO YOU KNOW, AN INSTITUTION THAT IS SUPPOSED TO RESPECT PRECEDENT AND YOU KNOW, RELY ON THE RULE OF LAW.

AND SO I THINK -- AND SO THE SECOND POINT I WOULD MAKE IS THAT PERHAPS HE HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO PURR SWAYED AT LEAST ONE OF HIS OTHER COLLEAGUES WHO YOU KNOW, VOTED IN THIS CASE TO TAKE A DIFFERENT POSITION.

>> Braude: ONCE AGAIN I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT BUT IT SEEMS TO HE UNDERSTANDING HOW DECISIONS ARE PARCELED OUT THAT WHEN THE CHIEF JUSTICE IS IN THE MINORITY AS HE IS HERE WITH A THREE LIBERALS, THE DE FACTO CHIEF JUSTICE BECOMES THE MOST CONSERVATIVE MAN ON THE COURT, CLARENCE THOMAS.

HE IS THE DE FACTO AT LEAST IN THIS CASE FOR THE MOMENT, AND GOING FORWARD WHERE ROBERTS IS NOT IN THE MAJORITY, HE IS THE DE FACTO CHIEF JUSTICE, IS HE NOT?

>> WELL, HE WOULD BE AS SENIOR JUSTICE WHO MIGHT BE VOTING ON THAT, ON THAT SIDE OF THE EQUATION.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, THE DEPARTMENT -- ONE OF THE GREAT IRONIES OF THIS IS MERRICK GARLAND WHO IS NOW THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN SITTING ON THIS COURT IF MITCH MCCONNELL CARED ABOUT JUSTICE, INSTEAD NEIL GORSUCH IS SITTING ON THE COURT.

HE SAID HE WILL PROTECT WOMEN IN HIS WORDS WAS PROTECT WOMEN WHO ARE SEEKING ABORTION IN TEXAS.

BUT I ASSUME THAT OPINIONS ONLY PROTECTING FROM PHYSICAL VIOLENCE, TRAMPLE, IF THERE IS ANY AT A PLANNED PARENTHOOD, FOR EXAMPLE, BECAUSE ESSENTIALLY THEY HAVE NO RIGHT AS OF THIS MOMENT TO BE, QUOTE PROTECTED AS GOES THEIR RIGHT TO CHOOSE, CORRECT?

>> WELL, AND ANOTHER THING THAT WE SHOULD CONSIDER IN THAT REGARD IS THAT YOU KNOW, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, MERRICK GARLAND HE DID PUT OUT A STATEMENT RECENTLY WHERE HE POINTED OUT THERE IS A FEDERAL STATUTE, RIGHT, THAT PROHIBITS PEOPLE FROM INTERFERING WITH ACCESS TO REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH CARE, CLINICS AND SERVICES.

SO YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT, YEN, PHYSICAL VIOLENCE WOULD BE ONE ASPECT OF THAT, BUT ALSO JUST YOU KNOW, INTERFERING WITH PEOPLE YOU KNOW, SORT OF GETTING INTO A PARKING LOT OR ANY OF THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.

SECOND, ONE OF THE FEATURES, THE UNIQUE FEATURES OF TEXAS LAW IS IT TRIES TO OUTSOURCE ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW TO PRIVATE CITIZENS.

>> Braude: RIGHT.

BOUNTY HUNTERS.

>> RIGHT.

BOUNTY HUNTERS, RIGHT, TO TRY -- IN AN ATTEMPT TO INSULATE THE LAW FROM BEING CHALLENGED BECAUSE THE THEORY WOULD BE THAT IT IS NOT A GOVERNMENT THAT IS PROHIBITING -- THAT IS INTERFERING WITH THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN TO ACCESS ABORTION SERVICES.

HOWEVER, YOU KNOW, YOU KNOW, FROM THE DATING FROM THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA, THERE ARE OTHER FEDERAL STATUTES AND DOCTRINES THAT SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, REALLY THE GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO DO -- TO OUTSOURCE A TRADITIONAL PUBLIC FUNCTION, LIKE ENFORCING THE CRIMINAL LAW IS LIMITED, AND SO THAT IS ANOTHER LEGAL AVENUE TO TRY TO CHALLENGE WHAT TEXAS HAS DONE HERE.

>> Braude: WE SHOULD MAKE CLEAR TO PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT DEEPLY INVOLVED IN THESE ISSUES, EVEN IF THE WORST WERE TO COME CAN FROM THE SUPREME COURT, IT WOULD NOT BAN ABORTION ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IT WOULD LEAVE IT PROTECTED BY THE FEDERAL CONSTITUTION AND BE LEFT UP TO STATES AND THE GOOD END PLACES LIKE MASSACHUSETTS, ON THE BAD END SOME OF THE SOUTHERN -- SOME OF THE DISOWRN -- >> RIGHT.

AND THERE ARE MORE THAN A DOZEN STATES, RIGHT, THAT HAVE LAWS READY TO GO IF THAT SHOULD HAPPEN.

SO IT WOULD HAVE AN IMPACT JUST BEYOND A STATE LIKE TEXAS OR MISSISSIPPI THAT HAVE THE CURRENT CASE PENDING -- PENDING BEFORE THE COURT, BUT IT WOULD NOT AFFECT WHAT IS GOING ON IN A STATE LIKE MASSACHUSETTS.

>> Braude: UNDERSTOOD.

SEVERAL YEARS AGO ACTUALLY THE NIGHT BEFORE THE NEW HAMPSHIRE PRIMARY IN 2016, A CANDIDATE DONALD TRUMP JOINED REAGAN AND ME ON A RADIO SHOW AND I THINK WE WERE THE FIRST PEOPLE TO ASK HIM IF HE HAD A LITMUS TEST FOR SUPREME COURT NOMINEES.

HERE IS WHAT TRUMP HAD TO SAY.

>> WE WANT GOOD, STRONG CONSERVATIVE PEOPLE THAT ARE EXTREMELY SMART.

I A PRO-LIFE AND I WOULD PUT IN PRO-LIFE.

>> Braude: SO HE CLEARLY KNEW WHAT HE WANTED AND BREONNA TAYLOR THAT UP BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW IF YOU THINK THIS PUTS PRESSURE ON STEPHEN BREYER IN HIS EIGHTIES TO DO WHAT HE APPEARS NOT TERRIBLY INTERESTED IN DOING, WHICH IS STEPPING DOWN AT A TIME WHEN A LIKE MINDED PRESIDENT COULD NAME A REPLACEMENT, AND NOT REPEAT -- AND IT IS HARD TO EVER CRITICIZE HERE, WHAT RUTH BADER GINSBURG CHOSE TO DO AND WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED THERE.

DO YOU THINK IT DOES INCREASE PRESSURE ON JUSTICE BREYER?

YOU KNOW, I THINK HE DOES FEEL THE PRESSURE.

I MEAN, I THINK HE YOU KNOW, IS AWARE OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING AND WHAT THE POLITICS OF THIS SITUATION ARE.

YOU KNOW, IF WE WERE AT A DIFFERENT TIME YOU KNOW, YOU REFERENCED JUSTICE GINSBURG, I MEAN WHEN SHE WAS NOMINATED TO THE COURT SHE WAS CONFIRMED NINE 7-3 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT A AND IF WE WERE LIVING IN A TIME LIKE THAT WHERE REALLY QUALITY PEOPLE COULD GET CONFIRMED REGARDLESS OF THEIR POLITICAL VIEWS OR THEIR YOU KNOW, POSITIONS THEY HAVE TAKEN ON ISSUES YOU KNOW, THEN HIS POSITION I THINK WOULD BE REASONABLE, BUT I DO HAVE A CONCERN THAT HE WILL OVER STAY AND THEN THE TIMING COULD BE BAD FOR NOMINATING AND CONFIRMING A REPLACEMENT WHO WOULD YOU KNOW, TAKE HIS ID LOGICAL POSITIONS ON THE COURT.

>> Braude: HE LIVES RIGHT ACROSS THE RIVER AND I HOPE SHE PAYING ATTENTION.

REN REN THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, JIM.

>> Braude: WELL, USUALLY I SEEK OUT A SUSPENSEFUL WORLD MIGHT END PIECE OF FICTION WHEN, SOLID, A SUSPENSEFUL WORLD MIGHT END CRIME THRILLER FROM THE NONFICTION SECTION FEATURING A MAIN CHARACTER YOU COULDN'T MAKE MAKE IT IF YOU TRIED.

>> SOME PEOPLE CALL IT CORONAVIRUS, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A BEAUTIFUL PLACE IN IT AT THIS, RIGHT?

>> IF WE WERE THE TESTING A MILLION PEOPLE INSTEAD OF 14 MILLION WE WOULD HAVE FAR FEWER CASES.

WHEN SOMEBODY IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE AUTHORITY IS TOTAL.

>> >> , CATASTROPHIC FINAL YEAR JOINED BY ONE OF THE COAUTHORS ALONG WITH CARROLL, THAT WOULD BE PHILIP SEYMOUR HOFFMAN OF THE "WASHINGTON POST" WHERE HE WON A PULITZER PRIZE FOR REPORTING ON RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE IN THE 2016 ELECTION, ALSO A POLITICAL ANALYST FOR NBC NEWS AND MSNBC AND THE COAUTHOR OF A VERY STABLE GENIUS, DONALD J. TRUMP'S TESTING OF AMERICA.

PHILIP IT IS GOOD TO MEET YOU, CONGRATULATIONS ON A SPECTACULAR BOOK.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IT IS AN HONOR TO TALK TO YOU TODAY.

>> Braude: THANK YOU, IT YOU ARE VERY KIND.

AFTER READING YOUR BOOK I WAS EVEN MORE CONVINCED DONALD TRUMP WAS A NARCISSIST REALITY DENYING INCOMPETENT AND POSSIBLY MENTALLY ILL PRESIDENT, WOULD I HAVE READ CORRECTLY?

>> WELL, YOUR CONCLUSION IS NOT UNLIKE THE CONCLUSION THAT SO HAD BEEN OF THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP OVER THE YEARS CAME TO CONCLUDE.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO THE INTERVIEWS THEY DID WITH CAROL AND WITH ME.

WE SPOKE DO MORE THAN 140 SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS, FRIENDS AND CONFIDANTS OF THE PRESIDENT, AND THEY ALL DREW SIMILAR CONCLUSIONS ABOUT HIS CHARACTER, ABOUT HIS MENTAL STATE, AND ABOUT HIS ABILITY TO LEAD, TO GOVERN THE NATION.

THEY WERE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE WAY IN WHICH HE STRUGGLED TO GOVERN.

>> Braude: PHILIP, I KNOW YOU ARE NOT AN EDITORIAL LIST AND MAYBE THAT'S WHY I WAS STUNNED AND HAD TO READ A SECOND LINE OPENING LINE IN THE PROLOGUE WHERE YOU SAY YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUE DONALD TRUMP CARED MORE ABOUT HIMSELF THAN HIS COUNTRY.

HOW HARD WAS THAT FOR YOU TO WRITE?

YOU KNOW, THAT'S A REALLY ..

IMPORTANT LINE IN THE PROLOGUE OF THE BOOK, BECAUSE I THE I IT IS CENTRAL TO UNDERSTANDING THIS ENTIRE PRESIDENCY AND CAROL AND I DIDN'T TAKE IT LIGHTLY TO COME TO THAT CONCLUSION.

AS YOU NOTED WE ARE NOT ED FOARL-ISTS AND WE DON'T SHARE 19 OUR REPORTING, WE ARE JOURNALISTS AND OBJECTIVE FINDERS OF FACT AND YOU KNOW, IN THIS CASE, WE DID ALL OF THIS SCRUPULOUS REPORTING, THESE INTERVIEWS, THESE REVIEW OF DOCUMENTS AND OF THE HISTORY WE ALL LIVED THROUG THE LAST FOUR YEARS, AND THAT IS THE CONCLUSION WE HAD TO DRAW, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THE FACTS LED.

IT IS NOT SORT OF A PARTISAN TAKE, BUT IT IS THE COLD HARD REALITY OF THE SITUATION.

>> Braude: HOW CLOSE WAS DONALD TRUMP TO ATTEMPTING A COUP AFTER TO QUOTE HIM THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM HIM, PHILIP?

>> VERY CLOSE.

SO CLOSE, IN FACT, THAT CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF WHICH IS THE HIGHEST RANKING MILITARY OFFICER IN THE UNITED STATES, GENERAL MARK MILLEY, THOUGHT THERE WAS A COUP AT FOOT.

HE WAS WORRIED ABOUT TRUMP INSTALLING LOYALISTS AT THE FBI AND CIA AND THROUGHOUT THE PENTAGON AND USING HIS POWER AS THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF TO TRY TO TURN THE MILITARY IN A WAY TO KEEP HIM IN POWER, KEEP HIM IN OFFICE, EVEN THOUGH HE HAD LOST THE ENTRY AND FAIR ELECTION, THIS WAS A DEEP CONCERN OF MILLEY'S AND SHARED BY THE OTHER JOINT CHIEFS AND THEY ACTUALLY HAD DISCUSSIONS IN THAT PERIOD BETWEEN -- IN THE OF THIS ELECTION AND THE JANUARY INAUGURATION OF JOE BIDEN ABOUT WHAT THEY WOULD DO TO TRY TO BLOCK, TO WITHSTAND AN ORDER FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT THEY CONSIDERED TO BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL OR DANGEROUS.

THEY WERE ALL PREPARED TO RESIGN INDIVIDUALLY.

>> Braude:YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT TROUBLED ME IN TERMS OF THE RESPONSE TO YOUR BOOK IS GENERAL MILLEY GOT A LOT OF RAISE WHICH HE DESERVES, I AM NOT TAKING THAT AWAY, BUT WHAT I THINK MOST OF THOSE ANALYSTS MISS WAS IT WASN'T INS STOWCIAL GUARDRAILS THAT WE CAN ALWAYS RELY UPON WHEN THERE IS AN UNHINGED OR ROGUE PRESIDENT.

IT WAS THE HONOR OF INDIVIDUALS, THE MILLEYS, EVEN ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR REFUSED TO GO AHEAD WITH THE INSURRECTION ACT AGAINST BLACK LIVES MATTER AND HELPING ADVANCE THE BIG LIE.

SO DOES THAT NOT TROUBLE YOU AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS FOLLOWED THE WHITE HOUSE THIS CLOSE.

>> HAD IT NOT BEEN GENERAL MILLEY BUT A GENERAL FLYNN, FOR EXAMPLE, MAYBE THAT COUP WOULDN'T HAVE HAVE JUST BEEN ATTEMPTED?

>> I I THINK YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT AND THAT IS SUCH AN IMPORTANT POINT FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND.

THE INSTITUTIONS YOU KNOW, WHILE THEY HELD, THEY DID NOT HOLD BECAUSE OF THE STRENGTH OF THE INSTITUTIONS AND OF THE LAWYER.

RATHER, THEY HELD BECAUSE OF THE STRONG CHARACTER AND BACKBONE, THE SPINE OF PEOPLE LIKE GENERAL MILLEY AND EVEN ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR WHO WAS A PARTISAN ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO HAD TRUMP'S BACKING TIME AND AGAIN IN POLITICAL CASES, BUT IN THE MOST EXTREME CASE, AFTER THE ELECTION, BARR DID THE RIGHT THING AND UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WAS NO WIDESPREAD FRAUD AS THE PRESIDENT HAD IMAGINED IT AND HE WOULD NOT ALLOW THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO GO ALONG WITH TRUMP'S PURSUIT OF EFFECTIVELY OVERTURNING THE RESULTS OF THIS ELECTION, SAME TOO WITH MILLEY AND THE PENTAGON IN KEEPING THE MILITARY OUT OF POLITICS AND KEEPING THE PRESIDENT FROM BEING ABLE TO USE THE MILITARY TO HOLD ON TO POWER THE WAY AN AUTHORITARIAN DICTATOR MIGHT DO IN ANOTHER LAND.

>> Braude:YOU KNOW, AS SOMEONE WHO ADMITS ME I SUFFER FROM TRUMP DERANGEMENT SYNDROME, I ASSUMED I WOULDN'T LEARN MUCH FROM YOUR BOOK, BUT I LEARNED A HELL OF A LOT, INCLUDING ABOUT WHAT DONALD TRUMP WAS DOING DURING THE INSURRECTION ON JANUARY 6TH.

CAN YOU GIVE US A BRIEF SUMMARY OF WHILE HE WAS NOT TRYING TO STOP THE VIOLENCE, WHAT WAS HE DOING, PHILIP?

YOU KNOW, REMEMBER THE MORNING OF JANUARY 6TH, PRESIDENT TRUMP WENT OUT TO THE -- AND SPOKE AT THAT STOP THE STEAL RALLY, AND THEN WHEN HE RETURNED TO THE OVAL OFFICE HE WAS WATCHING TELEVISION.

HE WAS WATCHING ON TV LIVE AS THOUSANDS OF HIS SUPPORTERS STORMED THE CAPITOL, LITERALLY AT HIS DIRECTION, THEY MARCHED TO THE U.S. CAPITOL AND STORMED THE STEPS AND STARTED BRAINING INTO THE BUILDING AND TRUMP WAS WATCHING.

THE V AND ACCORDING TO PEOPLE WHO SAW HIM THAT DAY WHO TALKED TO ME AND CAROL FOR THIS BOOK, HE WAS PLEASED BY WHAT HE SAW.

HE WAS HAPPY TO SEE HIS SUPPORTERS STAGING THIS SORT OF PHYSICAL SHOW OF FORCE TO TRY TO INTIMIDATE REPUBLICAN LAW MAKE ENTERS OVERTURNING THE ELECTION.

HE LOVED SEEING THE RED MAKE AMERICA AGAIN HATS, THE TRUMP FLAGS FLYING, HE ENJOYED IT.

IT WASN'T UNTIL IT BECAME A TRULY VIOLENT AND LETHAL SCENE AT THE CAPITOL THAT HE UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WAS A PROBLEM HERE AND YET EVEN THEN IT TOOK TWO HOURS, EVEN THREE HOURS FOR TRUMP TO ACTUALLY ISSUE A STATEMENT TELLING HIS SUPPORTERS TO STAND DOWN, TO BE SAFE AND TO GO HOME.

IT TOOK A LOT OF LOBBYING ACCORDING TO OUR REPORTING FROM IVANKA TRUMP, HIS DAUGHTER, FROM MARK MED GOES, THE WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF AND OTHER ALLIES WHO WERE CALLING THE PRESIDENT, BEGGING HIM TO ISSUE THAT STATEMENT AND HE FINALLY RELUCTANTLY DID SO.

>> Braude:YOU KNOW, ALMOST EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND IN MY ESTIMATION IS TOLD BY THE FACT THAT HE AGREED TO MEET WITH THE TWO OF YOU AT MARLA GO IN THE LOBBY WHICH IS ALSO -- LAURA INGRAM WALKING BY, I ASSUME THE PEOPLE SETTING UP THE BUFFET WALKING BY.

NOT FOR ONE HOUR BUT FOR TWO AND A HALF, BUY DID DONALD TRUMP -- I ASSUME HE KNEW ABOUT YOUR PRIOR BOOK.

WHY DID DONALD TRUMP AGREE TO MEET WITH YOU, DO YOU THINK?

YOU KNOW, IT IS INTERESTING.

HE NOT ONLY KNEW ABOUT OUR ISSUES BOOK, A VERY STABLE GENIUS BUT HE HATED IT.

HE ATTACKED IT ON TWITTER.

HE CALLED ME AND CAROL LOSERS, HE COMPLAINED ABOUT IT TO HIS ADVISORS, AND I HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH TRUMP GOING BACK FOUR OR FIVE YEARS FROM INTERVIEWING HIM MANY TIMES AS A CANDIDATE AND THEN AS PRESIDENT IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

BUT HE WOULD NOT DO AN INTERVIEW WITH US FOR THE FIRST BOOK THE SECOND BOOK I ALONE CAN FIX IT HE AGREED TO THE INTERVIEW AND HE DIDN'T EVEN TAKE MUCH PERSUADING.

HE SAID, YES RIGHT AWAY.

HE WANTED TO TELL HIS STORY.

HE WANTED TO TRY TO SHAPE, TO CURATE THE HISTORY THAT WE WERE TELLING OF HIS FINAL YEAR IN OFFICE.

BUT I THINK MORE THAN ANYTHING, HE WAS BORED.

REMEMBER HE WAS OUT OF OFFICE, HE WASN'T ENTER ACTING WITH REPORTERS ON A DAILY BASIS LIKE HE WAS USED TO AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

SITTING DOWN THERE AT MAR A LAGO SURROUNDING BY ALL OF HIS COURTIERS AND PLAYING GOLF .. AND THE STEAKS AND THE 0 BUFFET AND CHOCOLATE CAKE HE JUST WANTED SOMEBODY TO AT TALK TO AND HE LIKED THE IDEA WE WOULD FLY DOWN TO FLORIDA AND LISTEN TO TO WHAT HE HAD TO SAY FOR SO LONG.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO SAY HE PICKED THE WRONG PEOPLE BUT IN FACT I THINK HE PICKED THE RIGHT PEOPLE.

YOUR BOOK IS TERRIFIC, CONGRATULATIONS TO BOTH OF YOU, PHILIP.

THANK YOU THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Braude: WITH THE ON STLAWT OF BAD NEWS FROM HURRICANES, AFGHANISTAN AND COVID-19 THERE IS ANOTHER RECOVERY EFFORT THAT HAS FALLEN OFF THE RADAR FOR FAR TOO MANY EVEN AS THE SITUATION GETS WORSE.

>> Braude:.

>> EARLY A MONTH AFTER AN EARTHQUAKE KILLED MORE THAN 2,000 PEOPLE IN HAITI DESTROYED THOUSANDS OF HOPES AND BUSINESSES, THE HAITIAN GOVERNMENT IS WARNING OF A SPIKE IN KIDNAPPINGS AND OTHER CRIMES DUE TO GANG ACTIVITY.

SADLY IT IS A SCENE FAR TOO REMINISCENT OF 2010 WITH WHEN A DEVASTATING EARTHQUAKE HIT FOLLOWED BY A CHOLERA OUTBREAK WHICH WAS TRACED BACK TO U.N. PEACEKEEPING FORCES.

NOW HAITI IS AGAIN TRYING TO REBUILD FROM MULTIPLE CRISES, JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THIS IS LU LU, SHE IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE MGH CENTER FOR GLOBAL HEALTH, SHE LIVED IN HAITI FOR TEN YEARS AND HELPED MANAGE RESPONSES TO THAT 2010 EARTHQUAKE IN, AND CHOLERA OUTBREAK AND JUST RETURNED FROM ANOTHER TRIP TO THE COUNTRY.

DR. IVES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANKS.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: COULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT YOU SAW WHEN YOU WERE THERE RECENTLY?

>> >> OH, IT WAS REALLY DEVASTATING REALLY IMPACTFUL.

SHALLVILLE LAJT, SMALL TOWNS WERE, WHERE HOMES HAD BEEN COMPLETELY DEVOID, VERY SIGNIFICANT DAMAGE TO INFRASTRUCTURE, ROADS AND BRIDGES, REALLY PHYSICALLY DAMAGED BY THE EARTHQUAKE ITSELF AND A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST REALLY NEEDING HELP, MEDICAL HELP AND HELP OR THEIR LIKELIHOOD AS WELL.

>> MY UNDERSTANDING IS EVEN THINGS LIKE CLEAN WATER, SOME BASICS ARE UNAVAILABLE TO THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE; IS THAT CORRECT?

>> YES, THAT IS CORRECT.

I MEAN, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO THOUGH AND TO REMEMBER, THIS PART OF HAITI, THE SOUTHERN PART OF HAITI IS ALREADY QUITE RURAL.

THE INFRASTRUCTURE, EVEN ON A GOOD DAY, THE ROADS ARE QUITE TRICKY, ACCESS TO WATER, FOOD SECURITY IS ALREADY A CHALLENGE, AND JUST FIVE YEARS AGO ACTUALLY HURRICANE MATTHEW REALLY DEVASTATED THIS AREA WITH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HOMES AND LIKELIHOOD AND FARMS WIPED AWAY.

SO PEOPLE THERE THERE WERE STILL REALLY RECOVERING FROM THAT, SO TO ADD ON TOP OF THAT CRISIS IS REALLY TRAUMATIC FOR THE PEOPLE.

>> Braude: WITH THE ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF HAITI, FROM WHAT I HAVE READ FROM AFAR IS HOW MUCH EVEN MORE INFLUENCE GANGS HAVE HAD IN LATE AT THIS, WE READ THAT DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS HAD TO CLOSE THEIR HOSPITAL, I THINK IN PORT-AU-PRINCE OVER THE SUMMER BECAUSE OF GANG ACTIVITY.

HOW MUCH HARDER DOES THAT MAKE THE WORK OF DEDICATED PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND SO MANY OTHER DOCTORS AND SUPPORT PEOPLE?

>> >> YES, THE SECURITY SITUATION IS REALLY CHALLENGING AND ACTUALLY EVEN BEFORE THE ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT THERE WAS SERIOUS GANG ACTIVITY AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DISPLACED FROM THEIR HOMES IN THE AREA WHERE THEY JUST COULDN'T LIVE BECAUSE OF THE VIOLENCE THAT IS GOING ON.

AND IT CERTAINLY COMFORTS THE HUMANITARIAN, DAMPENS THE RESPONSE TO THE EARTHQUAKE, NOT JUST OUTSIDERS LIKE MYSELF BUT LOCAL DOCTORS AND NURSES TRYING TO BRING FOOD SUPPLIES HAVE REALLY HAD A HARD TIME BECAUSE OF THE VINES.

THERE HAD BEEN A TRUCE SO TO SPEAK.

THE ABILITY FOR THROUGH HUMANITARIAN CONVOYS TO PASS FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS, BUT FROM ALL THAT I AM HEARING NOW, THINGS ARE BEGINNING TO DETERIORATE AGAIN, MAKING IT VERY DIFFICULT.

>> Braude: I HAVE HAD SEVERAL HAITIAN AMERICAN LEADERS FROM BOSTON ON THE SHOW, AND I HAVE ASKED THEM HOW DO YOUR -- HOW ARE YOUR FAMILIES AND FRIENDS BACK IN HAITI?

HOW DO THEY ENDURE THIS SERIES OF NIGHTMARES ONE AFTER ANOTHER?

AND TEY ALL TALK ABOUT THE RESILIENCE, WHICH I GUESS FOR SOMEONE LIKE ME WHO HASN'T BEEN THERE IT IS HRD TO UNDERSTAND.

HOW DO YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION?

HOW DO THEY SURVIVE WHEN JUST AS YOU ARE HOPING TO GET OVER ONE CATASTROPHE ANOTHER BEFALLS YOU?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, I THINK THE KIND OF FOREIGN GAZE, RESILIENCE, BUT I DO THINK ONE QUESTION IS LIKE HOW MUCH CAN A PEOPLE BE ASKED TO ENDURE.

>> Braude: EXACTLY.

>> EITHER THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT OR BY EXTERNAL GOVERNMENTS THAT REALLY INTERFERE.

I MEAN PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE.

THEY HAVE CHILDREN TO FEED.

THEY ARE TRYING TO GET THEIR CHILDREN TO SCHOOL.

THEY HAVE LIKELIHOOD, LIVELIHOODS, THEY WANT TO SURVIVE, SO I THINK THE ENDUNCAN TO SURVIVOR IS A VERY HUMAN ONE, BUT I DO WORRY THAT WE JUST CONTINUE TO SEE THIS DIFFICULTY AND THIS KIND OF OPPRESSION OF PEOPLE THROUGH STRUCTURAL DEFISH SISTER.

>> Braude:YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU KNOW AND I HAVE ENCOUNTERED REAMS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE WANTED TO HELP IN SOME FASHION, BUT LOTS OF THOSE PEOPLE, WE HAVE LAURA SULLIVAN FROM NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO ON THE RADIO TOMORROW WHO IS PROPUBLICA A HANDFUL OF YEARS AGO TALKED ABOUT THE $500 MILLION THAT RED CROSS RAISED AFTER 2010 AND WHAT HAPPENED AND DIDN'T HAPPEN WITH IT.

IF PEOPLE ARE TO AVOID MAJOR ORGANIZATIONS LIKE RED CROSS, IS THE ALTERNATIVE TO SEEK OUT LOCAL ORGANIZATIONS FROM AFAR AND GIVE DIRECT DONATIONS TO THEM?

IS THAT THE DESIRED PATH?

>> YEAH.

I THINK A REALLY IMPORTANT KIND OF TERMINOLOGY IN THE INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT IS LOCALIZATION OF AID AND I THINK HAITI IS A PRIME EXAMPLE WHERE THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF LOCAL ORGANIZATIONS, VERY, VERY STRONG CIVIL SOCIETY, PEOPLE ALREADY HELPING EACH OTHER FROM THE FIRST MOMENTS OF THE EARTHQUAKE IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE, PARTLY BECAUSE OTHER PEOPLE COULDN'T EVEN PHYSICALLY GET THERE.

BUT IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT WHEN YOU ARE BEING CAREFUL AND I THINK WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO HELP IN HAITI.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT NOT TO LOOK AWAY.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO SEE WHAT ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME, WHO IS THE HAITIAN -- WHERE THE HAITIAN IS LEADING.

HOW CAN YOU MAKE SURE IT IS NOT JUST ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE SHOWING UP KIND OF AS PART OF THE CRISIS CARAVAN, SO TO SPEAK, TO RESPOND.

I MEAN THERE IS IMPORTANT LOGISTICS WORK IN AN EARTHQUAKE FOR EXAMPLE THAT MANY SMALLER ORGANIZATIONS CAN'T DO, YOU HAVE DO LIFT HEAVY MATERIAL, ET CETERA.

>> Braude: SURE.

>> SO THERE IS SOME NEED FOR LOGISTICAL SUPPORT BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING FOR THE LONG-TERM IT IS IMPORTANT TO FIND ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME, THAT ARE LED BY HAITIANS, THAT UNDERSTAND THE COMMUNITY AND THAT ARE GOING TO BE THERE TO MAKE SURE THAT MONEY IS WELL SPENT.

WITH U.S., WITH OUR OWN FEDERAL ASSISTANCE TO I THINK WE HAVE A ROLE AS CITIZENS HERE TO JUST CALL ON OUR LEADERS TO MAKE SURE THAT THE MONEY IS BEING ALSO PUT TO GOOD USE.

>> Braude: I ECHO THOSE THINGS AND ARE A TELL YOU HOW MUCH I ADMIRE YOU AND YOUR WORK,, DR. IVES, THANK YOU FOR SHARING THE STORY.

I REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS VERY MUCH FOR TALKING ABOUT HAITI.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE WILL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

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