>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO.", HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> EVERY TIME EVERYBODY WRITES THEM OFF, HE SOMEHOW MANAGES TO FIND A WAY TO ARRIVE AT HIS GREATEST SUCCESSES.

>> A FLY ON THE WALL ACCOUNT OF JOE BIDEN'S TRIUMPHS AND FAILURES.

AUTHOR FRANKLIN FORD JOINS ME WITH HIS ALL ACCESS BOOK ON THE U.S. PRESIDENT'S FIRST TWO YEARS.

>>> THEN, WHY THIS CCTV FOOTAGE COULD HELP BRING ISIS MEMBERS TO JUSTICE.

WE BRING YOU AN EXCLUSIVE REPORT.

>>> ALSO AHEAD -- >> SINCE WHEN DID WE START LOCKING PEOPLE UP WITHOUT A TRIAL IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> BEFORE ISIS, THERE WAS AL QAEDA, 9/11, AND GUANTANAMO.

WE LOOK BACK AT THE HIT MOVIE ABOUT SURVIVING AMERICA'S MOST NOTORIOUS PRISON, WITH JODIE FOSTER AND LORI AND NANCY HOLLANDER.

THE FILM, "THE MAURITANIAN."

>>> PLUS, JUST HOW POWERFUL IS ASKS HER BIOGRAPHER, SON EUN LEE.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING WE ARE.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

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THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYBODY.

I AM IN LONDON.

ONE OF THE MOST ANTICIPATED BOOKS OF THIS POLITICAL CYCLE IS FINALLY OUT, "THE LAST POLITICIAN," HIS ACCOUNT OF BIDEN'S FIRST TWO YEARS IN OFFICE, FROM THE INAUGURATION, TO THE MANY LEGISLATIVE ACHIEVEMENTS, TO THE AFGHANISTAN DEBACLE, AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN.

THE ATLANTIC STARFIGHTER LEAVES NO STONE UNTURNED.

IN HIS BOOK, AND IN OUR CONVERSATION.

>> FRANKLIN FOER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> IT IS SO GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> FRANKLIN, YOUR BOOK IS ALREADY BEING GOBBLED UP FOR THE ACCESS YOU HAVE HAD, THE FACT IT IS BEING DESCRIBED AS THE FIRST DEEP DIVE INTO THIS PRESIDENCY.

YOU CALL IT "THE LAST POLITICIAN".

WHAT DO YOU MEAN, CALLING JOE BIDEN THE LAST POLITICIAN?

>> WE LIVE IN AN AGE OF ANTIPOLITICS.

AND OBAMA, RAN AGAINST THE SYSTEM, THEY WERE OUTSIDERS AND PROUD OF THAT FACT.

THEY REMOUNTED WASHINGTON.

JOE BIDEN IS NOTHING, IF NOT A CREATURE OF WASHINGTON.

HIS THEORY OF THE CASE IS THAT IN ORDER TO SAVE DEMOCRACY FROM THE DOMESTIC THREATS OF AUTHORITARIANISM, AND IN ORDER TO PROVE DEMOCRACY IS WORTH ITS COMPETITORS ABROAD, HE NEEDS TO SHOW THAT DEMOCRACY CAN STILL DELIVER FOR ITS CITIZENS.

IN EFFECT, HE IS TRYING TO SHOW THAT A POLITICIAN AND POLITICS IN THIS PRACTICE THAT WE HAVE FROM MEDIATING OUR DIFFERENCES OF OPINION IS STILL THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY OF RUNNING A COUNTRY.

THERE WERE TIMES IN THE COURSE OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, WHEN NOBODY IN WASHINGTON, NOBODY IN THE COUNTRY AT THAT MOMENT, SEEMED AS IF THEY HAD SHARED HIS FAITH IN POLITICS.

IT LOOKED LIKE HE WAS HEADED, AT VARIOUS MOMENTS, TO A JIMMY CARTER PRESIDENCY.

ONE OF THE REMARKABLE THINGS ABOUT JOE BIDEN IS THAT HE IS A CREATURE OF COMEBACKS.

SO, EVERY TIME EVERYBODY WRITES FIND A WAY TO ARRIVE AT HIS GREATEST SUCCESS.

>> OKAY, SO YOU SET ME UP PERFECTLY, BECAUSE YOU ALMOST WROTE HIM OFF.

YOU ACTUALLY SAID, I VIEWED HIM AS A BLOVIATING HER DANGEROUSLY FETISHES BIPARTISANSHIP, BUT YOU ALSO SAY THE UNDERESTIMATION OF BIDEN WAS HIS DIESEL, IN OTHER WORDS, HIS SUPERPOWER.

SO, WHAT IS IT, THAT SOMEONE EVEN LIKE YOU, WHO IS DOING THE DEEP DIVE, YOU KNOW, PRACTICALLY BLEW HIM OFF AT THE BEGINNING?

>> IT IS NOT EVEN JUST THE BEGINNING.

I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS A VERY YOUNG REPORTER, I WAS 24, I GOT MY FIRST PHONE CALL WITH JOE BIDEN, WHICH FELT LIKE A MOMENTOUS OCCASION, BECAUSE HE HAD RUN FOR PRESIDENT, HE WAS CHAIRMAN OF THESE SENATE COMMITTEES, AND FIVE MINUTES INTO THE CALL I WAS LIKE, OH, MY GOD, THIS GUY TO GET OFF THE PHONE.

THE WAY THAT HE TALKS, WITH THE FOLKSY ANTIDOTES, THE STORIES THAT HE TELLS OVER AND OVER AGAIN, I THINK AMONG THE ELITES OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, WHO ALL WENT TO IVY LEAGUE SCHOOLS, WHO ALL WENT TO PRIDE THEMSELVES ON THEIR TECHNOCRATIC EXPERTISE, TEND TO LOOK DOWN ON JOE BIDEN AS SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

BIDEN IS A ACUTELY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT HE IS AN OUTLIER AMONG THE ELITES.

SO, SIMULTANEOUSLY, HE CRAVES THE AFFECTION AND ADMIRATION, BUT HE ALSO LOOKS AT THEM WITH A BIT OF DISDAIN, THAT HE THINKS THEY CAN BE LAZY, THEY CAN BE HIGH DOWN IN THEIR THINKING.

THAT CHIP ON HIS SHOULDER AND ELEMENT OF SOCIAL CLASS, I THINK HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE ESSENTIAL KEY TO UNLOCKING JOE BIDEN.

>> IT APPEARS THAT WALL STREET JOURNAL SAYS 73% OF VOTERS SAY JOE BIDEN IS TOO OLD TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.

THIS IS BIDEN, AT PHILADELPHIA, ON LABOR DAY, ADDRESSING THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.

LET ME JUST PLAY IT.

>> YOU KNOW, THAT BIDEN, SHE IS GETTING OLD, MAN.

I WILL TELL YOU WHAT.

WELL, GUESS WHAT?

GUESS WHAT?

THE ONLY THING THAT COMES WITH I HAVE BEEN DOING THIS LONGER THAN ANYBODY, AND GUESS WHAT?

I AM GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO IT, WITH YOUR HELP.

>> SO, WHAT YOU MAKE OF THAT?

AND DID YOU TALK TO HIM, ALL OF HIS, YOU KNOW, CLOSEST ABOUT THAT ISSUE?

HE WILL BE THE ONLY PRESIDENT, OR IS, TO HAVE TURNED 80 IN OFFICE, AND HE WILL BE 86, COMPLETING A SECOND TERM.

DOES HE THINK IT IS A PROBLEM?

>> I THINK THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE PUBLIC BIDEN AND PRIVATE BIDEN ON THIS IS PRETTY MUCH NEGLIGIBLE.

I HAVE THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THIS AGE QUESTION AND THE WAY IN WHICH WE ARE NOT ABLE TO TREAT IT WITH ANY SORT OF NUANCE.

I THINK ANYBODY HAS AGING RELATIVES, AND EVERYBODY BRINGS THEIR OWN PERSONAL BAGGAGE ABOUT AGING TO THIS QUESTION.

IT SHOULD BE SAID THAT INDIVIDUALS AGE IN DIFFERENT SORTS OF WAYS.

WE HAVE THE EXAMPLE OF DIANE FEINSTEIN, THE SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA, WHO GENUINELY APPEARS UNABLE TO DO BASIC OF AGE AND ILLNESS.

>> AND MAYBE EVEN MITCH McCONNELL, THE MINORITY LEADER IN THE SENATE.

>> PERHAPS.

AND THEN, YOU HAVE THE EXAMPLE OF SOMEBODY LIKE JOE BIDEN.

YOU LOOK AT THE WAY HE STROLLS THE STAGE, IT IS CLEAR HE HAS AGED.

YOU LISTEN TO THE WAY THAT HE TALKS, HE DOESN'T TALK IN THE SAME SORT OF REGISTER THAT HE DID WHEN HE WAS 10 YEARS AGO.

BUT, I ALSO -- SO, I HAVE SEEN CONVERSATIONS WITH JOE BIDEN, I HAVE SEEN THE WAY IN WHICH BOTH PARTS ARE TRUE.

I HAVE SEEN HIM TELL STORIES THAT GO ON A LITTLE BIT LONG, AND WHERE HE GETS A LITTLE BIT LOST IN THE STORY --WHICH, MAYBE JOE BIDEN ALWAYS DID.

I MEAN, THAT IS ONE OF THE RAPS ON THE GUY.

BUT, I HAVE ALSO SEEN HOW HE TURNS IT AROUND, AND A SECOND LATER, HE IS GIVING A COMMANDING DESCRIPTION OF AMERICAN GRAND STRATEGY IN THE INDO PACIFIC, FILLED WITH ALL SORTS OF INDIVIDUAL, PRECISE DETAILS, AND COMPLICATED PLANS, AND NUANCED THOUGHTS.

HE IS OLD, AND HIS AGE HAS BROUGHT WISDOM, AND I THINK WE REALLY STRUGGLE, CULTURALLY, TO FIND THE RIGHT WAY TO MAKE SENSE OF THIS IMPORTANT PART OF WHO HE IS.

>> AS YOU KNOW, BECAUSE YOU TALKED TO HIM --AND THIS IS FROM AN ARTICLE IN VANITY FAIR EARLIER --HIS OWN TEAM SAYS THAT ONE OF THE BENEFITS OF HIM IN THIS OFFICE IS THE KIND OF WISDOM, EXPERIENCE, AND PERSPECTIVE THAT HE BRINGS TO BEAR ON THESE PROBLEMS.

IT MATTERS, BUT IT TENDS TO BE DISMISSED, THAT IS THE CHIEF STRATEGIST, MIKE DONNA LYNNE SPEAKING.

SO, DO YOU GET THE IMPRESSION THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE AN ISSUE?

OR, HAVE THEY FIGURED OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS, AND SHOWING THE ADVANTAGE OF IT DURING A RE- ELECTION CAMPAIGN?

>> I THINK THEY ARE GOING TO STRUGGLE TO SHOW THE ADVANTAGE OF IT, TO TRANSLATE WHAT ARE THE ACTUAL SUBSTANTIVE ADVANTAGES OF HIS WISDOM AND EXPERIENCE, AND HOW DO YOU DEMONSTRATE THAT TO THE PUBLIC?

THE COMPLICATED AMERICAN RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA, WHERE THE UNITED STATES IS A GUN TO APPLY ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF PRESSURE, ECONOMICALLY, MILITARILY, ON CHINA AS IT REFOCUSES --READJUSTS ITS FOCUS ON THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

IT IS A REALLY HARD THING TO DO, BECAUSE YOU WANT TO APPLY THAT PRESSURE, YOU WANT TO KEEP THE RELATIONSHIP MANAGED SO THAT THINGS DON'T DANGEROUSLY GO OFF THE RAILS.

AND BECAUSE OF HIS EXPERIENCE, HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT, SIMULTANEOUSLY.

HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO BRING THE HEAT WITHOUT LETTING THINGS GET DANGEROUSLY OUT OF HAND.

IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE MANY OTHER AMERICAN POLITICIANS PULLING OFF A FEAT LIKE THAT.

BUT, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, IN A POLITICAL CONTEXT?

IT IS JUST INHERENTLY A DIFFICULT TASK.

>> WELL, MAYBE BY APPROACHING VLADIMIR PUTIN HIMSELF, WHO IS REPORTED TO HAVE SAID TO ANGELA MERKEL AFTER THE FIRST MEETING OF PRESIDENT BIDEN, WHEN THEY HAD THEIR FIRST MEETING OBVIOUSLY BEFORE THE FULL-SCALE INVASION, THAT BIDEN, HE SAID, WAS MUCH BETTER THAN I EXPECTED, THAT IS WHAT HE SAID TO ANGELA MERKEL.

SO, I GUESS HE HAS SHOWN --AND THE WORLD HAS TURNED TO AMERICA --AS A DEFENDER OF DEMOCRACY.

CLEARLY, OVER THE UKRAINE, THAT RUSSIA WAR.

I THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, BY AND LARGE, SUPPORT THAT.

>> RIGHT.

WELL, IF YOU CONSIDER THE BROAD INDIFFERENCE TO AUTOCRACY AMONG THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, AND EVEN AMONG AMERICA'S ALLIES IN EUROPE, IT IS QUITE A TURNABOUT THAT HE HAS TAKEN A PUBLIC WHICH HAS ACTUALLY HAD TO MAKE INCREDIBLE SACRIFICES ON BEHALF OF THE CAUSE OF UKRAINIAN FREEDOM.

ARMING THE UKRAINIANS, AND SANCTIONING RUSSIA HAS RESULTED COST US A LOT OF MONEY, AND POLITICALLY, I THINK THAT HE HAS DONE A VERY EFFECTIVE JOB OF BRINGING ALONG THE REPUBLICANS AS BEST AS HE CAN IN ORDER TO MAKE THIS A BIPARTISAN THING.

HE HAS WORKED WITH MITCH McCONNELL, WHO IS AN ACTUAL FRIEND OF HIS.

HARD FOR SOME PEOPLE TO IMAGINE, BUT IT IS TRUE.

McCONNELL HAS BEEN THE STEALTH HERO ON BEHALF OF UKRAINE, AND JUST KEPT THE AID PACKAGES FLOWING.

AND BIDEN HAS ALSO BEEN ACUTELY AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THAT GOODWILL, THAT BIPARTISAN SUPPORT, THE COALITION THAT HE HAS HELPED BUILD, IS NOT GOING TO LAST FOREVER.

THERE ARE THESE POLITICAL OBSTACLES, THESE POLITICAL DANGERS, THAT ARE LURKING AROUND THE CORNER.

SO, I DON'T THINK THAT UKRAINE CAN NECESSARILY COUNT ON STASIS WITHIN THE AMERICAN SYSTEM, AND BIDEN DOESN'T COUNT ON THAT, EITHER.

ISSUES, THEN?

BECAUSE THIS MATTERS TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND HOW THEY CONSIDER HIM.

THE IDEA OF BIDENOMICS, YOU HAVE WRITTEN THAT HE DID A SWERVE FROM MANY FORMER PRESIDENT'S, WHO ARE MORE IN FULL TO THE MARKET, TO GLOBALIZATION, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

REST LESS FRIENDLY TO UNIONS AND THE MORE PROGRESSIVE.

BIDEN HAS DONE A TOTAL SWITCHEROO, RIGHT?

HE HAS TAX THE RICH, PAUSED ALL OF THESE BIG, LEGISLATIVE BILLS, JOB GROWTH CONTINUES, WAGES ARE CLIMBING, CONSUMER CONFIDENCE IS CLIMBING, INFLATION AND UNEMPLOYMENT HAVE BOTH DROPPED BELOW 4%.

DOES HE GET THE CREDIT WITH THE PEOPLE FOR THAT FACT?

>> HE PROBABLY DOES NOT.

HE HAS TAKEN A LOT OF WHAT TRUMP ELEVATED TO THE SURFACE WITH HIS FORM OF POPULISM, WHICH WAS TOUGHER TRADE POLICY, A HOSTILITY TO MONOPOLIES, THIS DEFENSE OF AMERICAN MANUFACTURING, AND HE HAS TAKEN IT, AND HE HAS PUT IT WITHIN A MUCH MORE LIBERAL, COSMOPOLITAN CONTEXT, AND ACTUALLY, MANAGED TO IMPLEMENT IT.

SO, YOU TAKE SOMETHING, THE BIGGEST, MOST OBVIOUS EXAMPLE IS INFRASTRUCTURE, WHERE IT WAS ALWAYS INFRASTRUCTURE WEEK DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BUT HE WAS NEVER ABLE TO MAKE THE ACTUAL INVESTMENTS.

AND THEN, BIDEN IS ABLE TO PULL TOGETHER A BIPARTISAN GROUP TO PASS THE BIGGEST INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT SINCE THE EISENHOWER ADMINISTRATION.

>> SO, THAT IS A BIG DEAL.

THE QUESTION, ALSO, IS WHETHER HIS FOREIGN-POLICY IS TRANSFORMATIONAL, OR IS IT TRANSITIONAL?

WE TALKED ABOUT THE TOUGHENING OF THE NATO ALLIANCE, THE FACT THAT THEY ARE DOING A HUGE AMOUNT IN THE INDO PACIFIC TO TRY AND DETER CHINA.

THE PRESIDENT IS GOING THIS WEEK TO VIETNAM AFTER THE G20 SUMMIT.

THAT IS NO EASY JOURNEY FOR ANYBODY, AND HE KEEPS GOING, AND KEEPS DOING IT.

AFGHANISTAN, BECAUSE IT WAS EARLY, AND IT WAS A CATASTROPHE.

THIS IS --I JUST WANT TO REMIND EVERYBODY WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID ON THE 16th OF AUGUST, 2021, AFTER THE TALIBAN TOOK OVER AND ESSENTIALLY HAS SENT AFGHANISTAN BACK TO THE MIDDLE AGES.

THIS IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID.

>> I STAND SQUARELY BEHIND MY DECISION.

AFTER 20 YEARS, I HAVE LEARNED THE HARD WAY THAT THERE WAS NEVER A GOOD TIME TO WITHDRAW U.S.

FORCES.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE STILL THERE.

WE WERE CLEAR EYED ABOUT THE RISKS.

WE PLAN FOR EVERY CONTINGENCY.

BUT, I ALWAYS PROMISED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT I WILL BE STRAIGHT WITH YOU.

THE TRUTH IS, THIS DID UNFOLD MORE QUICKLY THAN WE HAD ANTICIPATED.

>> I THINK THAT MOMENT WAS A TURNING POINT MOMENT FOR HIS PRESIDENCY.

HE WAS ON THE CUSP OF PASSING HIS BUILD BACK BETTER AGENDA IN THE SENATE, WHICH WOULD HAVE EXTENDED THE SOCIAL SAFETY NET JOHNSON.

AND AFGHANISTAN KNOCKED HIM ON HIS HEELS, AND HE NEVER TRULY RECOVERED FROM THAT.

HE HAD BEGUN WITH THIS REPUTATION FOR COMPETENCE BASED ON THE VACCINE ROLLOUT IN HIS INITIAL PERFORMANCE IN OFFICE, AND HE NEVER WAS ABLE TO RECOVER THAT AFTER AFGHANISTAN.

BUT, I THINK YOU ARE MAKING ANOTHER POINT ABOUT HIS FOREIGN- POLICY, WHICH IS --SO, HE HAS REDIRECTED AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY SO THAT THE BIG FRAME IS DEMOCRACY VERSUS AUTHORITARIANISM.

BUT, DEMOCRACY IS NOT THE SAME AS HUMAN RIGHTS.

IF I WERE TO FALL TO HIS HUMAN POLICY PRESIDENCY, I WOULD SEE THAT HE LETS HUMAN RIGHTS SLIP TO THE SIDE TOO OFTEN.

AND HE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE A HUMAN RIGHTS STRATEGY FOR THE FALL OF THE COUNTY GOVERNMENT IN AFGHANISTAN.

AS IT RELATES TO SAUDI ARABIA AND OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD, HUMAN RIGHTS TOP OF HIS AGENDA AND I WISH IT WERE.

>> THAT REALLY IS A FASCINATING INSIGHT THERE.

SO, CAN I JUST ASK YOU, YOU SAY THAT YOUR RESPECT FOR THE PEASANT GREW AS YOU KEPT REPORTING THIS BOOK.

>> SO, AS I HAVE WATCHED BIDEN, I TOLD YOU HOW I BEGAN THINKING OF HIM AS THIS GUY WHO DANGEROUSLY FETISHIZED BIPARTISANSHIP, WHO TOLD THESE STORIES THAT WOULD NEVER END.

AND AS I WATCHED HIM, I SAW THE WAYS IN WHICH HE WAS ABLE TO SHELVE HIS EGO IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH A SENATOR, A FOREIGN ADVERSARY.

I SAW THE WAY IN WHICH HE WAS ABLE TO APPLY THE PSYCHOLOGICAL ACUMEN THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED TO THE PEOPLE HE IS DEALING WITH.

SO, HE CAN UNDERSTAND, IN A VERY REALISTIC SORT OF WAY, WHAT THE BOTTOM LINE IS, WHAT THE PSYCHOLOGICAL MAKEUP IS.

AND AS A POLITICIAN, HE IS ABLE TO STARE ACROSS THE TABLE AND LOOK AT HIS FELLOW POLITICIANS, AND GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS OF PUTTING HIMSELF IN THEIR MINDS, TO UNDERSTAND THEIR SELF- AND I THINK THAT IS THE THING THAT I ENDED UP RESPECTING.

SO, IN A SENSE, JUST TO GO BACK TO THE TITLE OF THE BOOK, I ENDED UP RESPECTING POLITICS AND THE POLITICIAN IN THOSE CORE SKILLS AND TECHNIQUES OF A POLITICIAN, FAR MORE THAN I HAD GOING IN.

>> FRANKLIN FOER, AUTHOR OF "THE LAST POLITICIAN", THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>>> TERRORISM IS NO LONGER REALLY TOP OF THE AGENDA AT INTERNATIONAL GATHERINGS, LIKE THE G-20.

BUT, REMEMBER ICES?

THE TERROR GROUP WREAKED HAVOC AROUND THE WORLD SINCE DECLARING HIS CALIPHATE IN IRAQ AND SYRIA IN 2014.

CARRYING OUT DOZENS OF DEADLY ATTACKS, AND INSPIRING MANY MORE.

AUTHORITIES ARE STILL PIECING TOGETHER ANY EVIDENCE THAT COULD BRING THOSE RESPONSIBLE TO ACCOUNT.

CORRESPONDENT, JOE MONICAL, HAS MORE ON THIS EXCLUSIVE REPORT.

JUST A NOTE, SOME OF THE FOOTAGE MIGHT BE DIFFICULT TO WATCH.

>> ANSWERING THE CALL TO UNITE UNDER ONE FLAG, THIS IS THE SOURCE OF OUR GLORY.

>> IT WAS AN ICES HALLMARK, SLICK MEDIA PRODUCTIONS TERRORIZING THE WORLD.

>> Reporter: IT IS WHAT THEY WANTED US TO SEE.

BUT, NOT THIS.

>> THIS FILM IS DIFFERENT.

THIS FILM IS AN ISLAMIC STATE WITHOUT AN ISLAMIC STATE KNOWING IT WAS BEING FILMED.

>> Reporter: NEVER BEFORE SEEN VIDEO INSIDE THE GROUP HEADQUARTERS IN THE SYRIAN CITY OF ALEPPO IN 2013.

THE CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL TURNING INTO A HOUSE OF HORRORS.

CCTV VIDEO THAT CAPTURES THE REALITY OF THE ISLAMIC STATE, WHERE TORTURE WAS ROUTINE.

HUNDREDS OF SYRIANS WERE HELD IN THIS MAKESHIFT PRISON, AND NEVER MADE IT OUT TO TELL THEIR STORIES.

OTHERS DID, INCLUDING SOME WESTERN HOSTAGES, WITH CHILLING ACCOUNT OF WHAT THEY SURVIVED AND WITNESSED.

>> WE COULD HEAR THE SYRIAN PRISONERS, BEING DETAINED IN THE HOSPITAL, FOR INSTANCE.

WE COULD SEE SOME OF THEM IN THE CORRIDORS, AND WE COULD SEE SOME PEOPLE WAITING FOR UPLOAD.

>> THIS VIDEO WAS MORE THAN A SNAPSHOT OF ICES' REIGN OF TERROR.

>> AS A NORMAL STATE OF AFFAIRS, THE HOSPITAL HAD CCTV RUNNING.

THE MEMBERS OF THE ISLAMIC STATE DIDN'T REALIZE THAT THIS WAS BEING RECORDED IN THE BACKGROUND, AND DIDN'T THINK TOO MUCH ABOUT IT.

>> AND THE CAMERAS ROLLED FOR MONTHS, CAPTURING SCENES LIKE THIS.

A CAPTIVE LEFT HANGING IN A STRESS POSITION, BLINDFOLDED DETAINEES MARCHED DOWN THE HALLWAY.

HEAR HIM LAUGHING AS HE PUSHES DOWN THE HEAD OF HANDCUFFED DETAINEE, ONLY A FEW OF THE CLIPS SHARED EXCLUSIVELY WITH CNN BY THE COMMISSION FOR INTERNATIONAL JUSTICE AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

>> THIS IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF TREATMENT THAT WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT FROM SURVIVORS.

WHAT MAKES THIS IMPORTANT, IS AS YOU SEE THERE, THE ISLAMIC STATE MEMBER WITHOUT A MASK ON WALKING DOWN THE HALL.

THAT IS A PERSON WHO WOULD NORMALLY TRY TO HIDE HIS FACE OUTSIDE.

>> Reporter: WE HAVE BLURRED FACES TO PRESERVE ONGOING INVESTIGATIONS AND POSSIBLE FUTURE PROSECUTIONS.

>> THAT IS INCREDIBLE EVIDENCE AT TRIAL.

FOR SEVERAL OF THESE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED.

>> Reporter: ACCORDING TO INGLES FIGHTERS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD INCLUDING SENIOR MEMBERS FROM EUROPE AND THE U.S., FOR OPERATING IN THE FACILITY, THIS VIDEO, HE SAYS, HAS ALREADY BEEN USED TO IDENTIFY A FRENCH SUSPECT EVIDENCE GATHERED HAS LONG ALLOWED THEM AND LAW ENFORCEMENT IN VARIOUS WESTERN COUNTRIES TO IDENTIFY AND TRACK DOWN ICES MEMBERS WHO FLED, BEFORE THE SEIZURES WERE CRIME INVESTIGATED UNDERCOVER, COLLECTING EVIDENCE LIKE THIS FROM THE BATTLEFIELD IN SYRIA AND IRAQ.

>> IT IS OFTEN THE CASE THAT DOMESTIC LAW ENFORCEMENT AND PROSECUTORIAL AUTHORITIES HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO PROVE THAT THEY WERE A MEMBER.

WHAT WE THINK IS IMPORTANT, IS THAT WHEREVER POSSIBLE, WE ARE ABLE TO PROSECUTE THEM FOR THE FOR THE MURDER.

>> Reporter: THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE PAST.

ISIS REMAINS A TOP GLOBAL SECURITY THREAT.

>> THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE ALREADY PROVEN THAT THEY ARE A THREAT.

WE DON'T WANT TO GIVE THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO DECIDE TO GO DOWN THAT PATH AGAIN.

YOU KNOW?

WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL HUNDRED REQUESTS FOR INFORMATION.

BY LAW ENFORCEMENT PARTNERS HAVE NOT ALL FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE CONFLICT.

>> Reporter: JUST BEFORE DAWN ON JANUARY 17th, HEAVILY ARMED POLICE DESCENDED ON THE STREET IN THE VILLAGE OF ARCO.

THEY RAIDED A HOUSE AND ARRESTED A MAN SUSPECTED OF HAVING BEEN A SENIOR ISIS COMMANDER IN SYRIA.

HIS ARREST IN THE SMALL, SLEEPY TOWN WHERE HE LIVED A QUIET LIFE WITH HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN SHOCKED THE NATION.

RESIDENTS HERE WERE RELUCTANT TO SPEAK TO US ABOUT THE SUSPECT IDENTIFIED AND HE ALLEGEDLY OPERATED IN DAMASCUS, NOT ALEPPO, SO IT WASN'T THE CCTV VIDEO THAT LED TO HIS ARREST.

IT WAS A TIP FROM A SYRIAN NGO AND WITNESS TESTIMONY THAT TRIGGERED A YEARS LONG DUTCH INVESTIGATION.

SOURCES SAY HE HAD A LONG HISTORY OF EXTREMISM IN SYRIA, HOLDING LEADERSHIP POSITIONS FIRST WITHIN AL QAEDA, AND LATER ISIS.

HE REJECTS THE GOVERNMENT'S ACCUSATIONS AND FACES LIFE IN PRISON.

>> HE HAD A LEADING POSITION WITHIN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS.

>> Reporter: MIRIAM BLOM IS THE LEAD PUBLIC PROSECUTOR ON THE CASE.

SHE HAS CHARGED WITH TWO COUNTS OF MENTORSHIP IN TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS WITH THE AIM TO COMMIT WAR CRIMES.

>> IN ORDER TO CHARGE HIM WITH SEPARATE WAR CRIMES, LIKE EXECUTION, OR VIOLENT ARRESTS, OR TORTURE, YOU NEED MORE EVIDENCE THAN INDICATIONS.

>> Reporter: SO, THIS IS ONGOING?

>> WE HAVE INVESTIGATIONS STILL GOING ON, YEAH.

>> Reporter: WAS HE HIDING?

PEOPLE LIKE HIM, ALSO WAR CRIMINALS, CAN COME HIDING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREAM OF REFUGEES.

AND TO BE ABLE TO INVESTIGATE AND PROSECUTE THOSE CASES, IT'S A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT ASPECT IN OUR MISSION.

NOT TO BE A SAFE HAVEN FOR WAR CRIMINALS.

>> Reporter: THE TRAIL OF TERROR ISIS LEFT BEHIND WILL HAUNT NOT ONLY THE ROOMS, BUT THOSE WHO TORMENTED THEM.

>>> FOR DECADES, THE U.S. HELD HUNDREDS OF DETAINEES IN GUANTANAMO BAY, SUBJECTING MANY TO HARSH INTERROGATIONS, AND EVEN TORTURE, SAY SOME OF THE INMATES.

AFTER 9/11, MOHAMMED WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PRISONERS OF THE NOTORIOUS PRISON, SUSPECTED OF BEING A MEMBER OF AL QAEDA.

HE WAS HELD AND TORTURED WITHOUT CHARGE FOR 14 YEARS, AND HIS BOOK, GUANTANAMO DIARY, WAS THE BASIS OF THE FILM, THE MAURITANIAN.

HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE MOVIE WHERE HE TELLS HIS LAWYER, PLAYED BY JODIE FOSTER, THAT HE CONFESSED UNDER DURESS.

>> WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US?

>> I HEARD NOTHING, A FANTASY.

>> YOU SAW THEM?

>> THEY MADE ME.

>> THEY MADE YOU, AS IN THEY COURSED YOU?

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I DON'T KNOW, THEY COURSED YOU?

YOU HAVE TO TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED, MOHAMMED.

>> OKAY, YOU ARE ASKING ME TO SET FIRE TO THIS PLACE, BUT I AM STILL SITTING HERE.

>> WRITE THAT DOWN.

THAT'S WHAT THE PAGES ARE FOR.

WRITE IT DOWN!

YOU NEED TO TELL ME THE TRUTH.

YOU NEED TO TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED, OR I CAN'T DEFEND YOU.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> YOU ARE DEFENDING NOTHING.

WHATEVER I SAY, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

THIS --IHLEN, I WILL DIE HERE!

OUTSIDE, MY FAMILY, MY BROTHER, THEIR LIVES GO ON.

BUT ME, HERE, I AM LIKE A STATUE.

>> WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE USEFUL TO GO BACK TO THAT TIME AS THE 22nd ANNIVERSARY OF 9/11 APPROACHES.

HERE IS MY CONVERSATION WITH JODIE FOSTER AND NANCY HOLLANDER.

WE RECORDED WHEN THE FILM CAME OUT IN 2021.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, AN AMAZING FILM.

JODIE FOSTER, I WANT TO ASK YOU FIRST WHY YOU DECIDED TO DO THIS, BECAUSE I READ THAT YOU DON'T LIKE BIO PICS, YOU DON'T NECESSARILY LIKE POLITICAL MOVIES.

WHAT ABOUT THIS ONE CONVINCED YOU?

>> WELL, YEAH, IT IS THE WRITING, REALLY.

FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TO SAY THAT LIKE MANY AMERICANS WHO LIVED THROUGH 9/11, I KNEW VERY LITTLE ABOUT GUANTANAMO.

I VAGUELY KNEW THAT IT STILL EXISTED, THAT OBAMA WANTED TO CLOSE IT DOWN AND HADN'T MANAGED TO DO IT, AND THAT WAS ABOUT IT.

I READ THE SCRIPT, AND STARTED DOING RESEARCH.

JUST SUCH A FASCINATING STORY, AND TO HAVE MOHAMMED'S CHARACTER BE THE CENTRAL CHARACTER, WHOSE EYES WE LIVE THROUGH AS AUDIENCE MEMBERS, I THINK THAT IS REALLY WHAT MADE THE DIFFERENCE FOR ME.

BE BACK I JUST WANT TO ASK NANCY HOLLANDER ABOUT THE ACTUAL LEGAL CASE AND THE CONUNDRUM, NANCY.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, HE SAID IN THAT CLIP THAT HE WAS, YOU KNOW, HE CONFESSED UNDER DURESS.

THE CHARGES EVER HAVE A CHANCE OF STANDING UP?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THERE WERE NO CHARGES.

HE WAS NEVER CHARGED WITH ANYTHING.

SO, IF HE HAD BEEN CHARGED -- YEAH, THE ACCUSATIONS.

NO, THEY WOULDN'T STAND UP AND THEY DIDN'T STAND UP, AND THAT IS WHY THE JUDGE GRANTED HIS CASE, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T STAND UP AFTER SO MANY YEARS, THE GOVERNMENT COULD IMPROVE ANYTHING.

>> WHAT YOU THINK WHEN YOU FIRST MET HIM?

I MEAN, THE FIRST CLIP THAT WE SHOWED, REALLY, PRETRADE BY JODIE FOSTER, REALLY PASSIONATE ABOUT WANTING TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND HIM.

WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU FIRST MET HIM?

>> I KNEW NOTHING ABOUT MOHAMMED WHEN I FIRST MET HIM, NOTHING, EXCEPT THAT HE WAS THERE, EVERYONE THERE, AS FAR AS WE KNEW AT THAT TIME, ACCUSED OF HAVING TO DO WITH SOMETHING WITH 9/11.

I WENT IN, I MET HIM, I TOLD HIM THIS MANY TIMES, WALKED IN, AND HE PUT HIS ARMS OUT TO HUG, AND THEN HE DIDN'T MOVE, AND I REALIZED HE WAS SHACKLED TO THE FLOOR, WALKED INTO HIS ARMS, AND HE SAID, MY LAWYERS.

AND THAT IS HOW IT STARTED.

I BELIEVE HE TRUSTED ME FROM THE BEGINNING.

I HAD TO LEARN TO TRUST HIM.

I TRUSTED HIM, AS A PERSON.

HE WASN'T GOING TO HARM ME, BUT I WASN'T GOING TO LEARN WHAT TO TRUST WHAT HE WAS TELLING ME.

>> AND JODIE FOSTER, I THINK MOHAMMED, THE PERSON, THE PERSON WHO HAS EMERGED, FORGIVEN, HOPEFUL, AND OPTIMISTIC.

AND YOU ALSO MET HIM, AS WELL, ONSET.

WHAT DID YOU THINK OF HIM, THE ACTUAL MOHAMMED DO?

>> VERY LUCKY TO MEET THE ACTUAL MOHAMMED.

YOU KNOW, WE MARVELED THAT HE COULD HAVE GONE THROUGH SO MUCH, LIVED THROUGH SO MUCH, TORTURE, PSYCHOLOGICALLY, SEXUALLY.

JUST IN EVERY ASPECT OF HIS LIFE.

AND YET, TO EMERGE AS SUCH A FULL HUMAN AND SUCH A GENTLE, SWEET, COMPASSIONATE, FUNNY, TEASING GUY.

HE DID COME TO CAPE TOWN WHERE WE WERE SHOOTING.

IT IS THE ONLY VISA HE HAS BEEN ABLE TO GET, HE JUST GOT ONE TO LEAVE ANYWHERE.

HE GOT TO HANG OUT WITH NANCY, AND THEY GOT TO SEE THE PENGUINS AND VISIT ROBIN ISLAND AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS IN CAPE TOWN, AND IT WAS WONDERFUL.

IT HAS FELT VERY HEALING.

IT FEELS TO ME LIKE IT IS VERY HEALING FOR MOHAMMED TO SEE THE MOVIE IS MADE AND PEOPLE HAVE RECEIVED IT.

>> WELL, ROBIN ISLAND, OF COURSE, THE PRISON WHERE NELSON MANDELA WAS FOR MOST OF HIS 28 YEAR INCARCERATION, THAT MUST HAVE BEEN PRETTY AMAZING.

LET ME TALK TO YOU, ABOUT YOU.

YOU TWO, THE WAY YOU HAVE TEAMED UP.

JODIE, WHAT WAS IT?

I KNOW THAT NANCY WROTE AN OP- ED ABOUT WHY SHE DEFENDS EVEN TERRORISTS.

THAT MEANT A LOT TO YOU, EVEN BEFORE THIS FILM WAS A REALITY.

>> YEAH, SO, NANCY IS REALLY QUITE A HERO.

YOU KNOW, SHE BELIEVES IN THE RULE OF LAW, BELIEVES IN THE CONSTITUTION, SHE BELIEVES EVERYBODY DESERVES A DEFENSE AND IT HAS BEEN HER MISSION TO PROVIDE THAT, AND THAT MEANS CHALLENGING GOVERNMENTS, CHALLENGING AUTHORITY.

I THINK THAT AS NOBLE A MISSION THAT IS, AND AS IMPORTANT A MISSION AS THAT IS, I THINK IT TAKES A TOLL ON SOMEBODY, AND, YOU KNOW, SHE HAS GIVEN SO MUCH SHOW WE CAN HAVE A JUSTICE SYSTEM.

>> NANCY HOLLANDER, YOU DID WRITE THIS ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES AND OP-ED, BECAUSE YOU HAD TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT A LOT OF THE CRITICISM, MAYBE, THAT YOU ARE GETTING FOR ALL OF THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF DEFENDANTS WHO YOU WERE REPRESENTING.

TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT YOU EXPERIENCED AND WHY YOU WROTE THIS?

>> AT THAT TIME, I WROTE THAT, I THINK IT WAS CHENEY WHO SAID, WE SHOULDN'T BE REPRESENTING THESE PEOPLE.

AND THERE WERE SOME OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE ALWAYS SAYING, YOU SHOULDN'T REPRESENT THESE TERRORIST.

IT JUST MADE ME SO ANGRY, AND AS JODIE, HIS NIECE, SAYS IN THE MOVIE --WHICH IS WHAT I WROTE --NOBODY EVER COMPLAINED WHEN I REPRESENTED PEOPLE WHO DID HORRIBLE THINGS.

NOBODY EVER ACCUSED ME OF BEING THEN.

AND YET, WE WERE BEING ACCUSED, LAWYERS WHO REPRESENTED PEOPLE IN GUANTANAMO, OF SOMEHOW BEING LIKE THEM, AND IT INFURIATED ME, AND I THINK THAT PIECE WAS SOME OF MY BEST WRITING, ACTUALLY, BECAUSE I WAS SO ANGRY WHEN I SAT DOWN AND WROTE IT.

>> I'M GOING TO PLAY A CLIP WE HAVE FROM THE FILM, WHICH IS ACTUALLY OF YOUR CHARACTER, JODY, PLAYING, AND YOUR ASSISTANT, LEGAL ASSISTANT.

YOU ARE REALLY ACTUALLY ANGRY AT HER, AS WELL.

SO, LET'S PLAY IT AND WE CAN DISCUSS IT.

>> HE IS GUILTY.

GUILTY!

>> MAYBE HE IS.

HE STILL HAS A RIGHT TO COUNSEL.

>> I AM NOT SAYING HE DOESN'T, I'M SAYING HE HELPED TO KILL 3000 CIVILIANS AND WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN TO GET THEM OUT.

>> WE ARE DOING OUR JOB.

>> I HAD BAKE SALES FOR HIS LEGAL FUND, THAT IS NOT PART OF MY JOB.

MY DAD TOLD ME I AM NOT WELCOME HOME FOR THANKSGIVING THIS YEAR, THAT IS NOT PART OF MY JOB.

>> GET OUT.

>> WHAT?

>> YOU WANT TURKEY AND PUMPKIN PIE WITH MOM, AND DAD, AND UNCLE JOE?

GO ON, GET OUT.

YOU CAN'T WIN A CASE IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOUR OWN.

>> JODIE FOSTER, THAT IS QUITE DRAMATIC STUFF, IT REALLY BRINGS HOME THE STAKES AND HOW YOU HAD TO CONVINCE EVEN YOUR OWN, OR RATHER HOW NANCY HAD TO CONVINCE EVEN HER OWN LEGAL ASSISTANT.

BUT, I WANT TO ASK YOU BEFORE GOING TO NANCY, BECAUSE IT IS NANCY REALLY THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE WORD, AGGRESSIVE, MEAN?

DID YOU EXAGGERATE THAT SIDE?

>> I DEFINITELY DID.

NANCY IS A MUCH NICER PERSON THEN MY NANCY.

I MEAN, WE TEASE EACH OTHER ABOUT THAT.

THIS WILL NOT BE AN INVITATION, WE ARE HERE TO SERVE THE STORY, AND IN ORDER TO DO THAT, WE MAY HAVE TO EXAGGERATE CERTAIN PARTS.

I BELIEVE WHEN NANCY JUST SAID SHE GOT VERY ANGRY, NANCY HAS A WAY OF INTERNALIZING ANGER.

THIS CHARACTER ALLOWS THE SO, YEAH, WE MADE THOSE DIRECTORIAL CHOICES, NARRATIVE CHOICES, JUST MAKE THE TRANSITION OF NANCY'S CHARACTER FROM THE BEGINNING, THROUGH HER RELATIONSHIP WITH MOHAMMED, THROUGH MANY YEARS TO CONDENSE IT AND ALLOW US TO SEE MORE CHANGE.

>> SO, NANCY, WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THAT PERFORMANCE?

AND I GUESS YOU MUST HAVE TALKED A LOT TO JODY, TO THE DIRECTORS, TO EVERYBODY INVOLVED, ABOUT THE PROCESS?

>> WELL, I DID TALK ABOUT THE PROCESS WITH ALL OF THEM, BUT AFTER THAT CLIP, FIRST LET ME SAY THAT TERRY DUNCAN WAS A LAWYER AT THAT TIME, AN ASSOCIATE IN MY OFFICE.

SHE IS NOW, ALL THESE YEARS LATER, AN ACCOMPLISHED, TERRIFIC LAWYER, AND SHE PRIMARILY DOES DEATH PENALTY CASES.

SO, SHE WOULD --I'M SORRY, THE REAL TERRY DUNCAN WOULD NEVER DO THAT.

BUT, CARRY TERRY'S CHARACTER, I BELIEVE, WAS CREATED AS A PROXY FOR THE AUDIENCE, BECAUSE WE KNOW THE AUDIENCE IS THINKING HOWEVER, IF SOMEONE CAME TO ME AND SAID THAT, I WOULD SAY, NOT QUITE AS DRAMATICALLY AS JODIE PUT IT, BUT I WOULD SAY, YOU REALLY NEED TO RECONSIDER WHETHER YOU CAN BE A CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER, BECAUSE IF YOU ARE GOING TO WORRY ABOUT WHO IS GUILTY AND WHO IS INNOCENT, YOU CAN'T DO IT.

AND SO, THAT IS HOW I WOULD SAY IT.

THE FINAL WORDS OF THAT CLIP, YOU HAVE GOT TO BELIEVE YOUR OWN, THOSE ARE MY WORDS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION, BECAUSE PEOPLE MISS YOU WHEN YOU ARE NOT ON SCREEN, YOU HAVE A HUGE FAN BASE, BUT YOU DON'T DO MANY MOVIES.

I HAVE READ YOU SAY THAT YOU DO WHAT HAS MEANING TO YOU.

AND I HAVE HEARD YOU TALK ABOUT, ALSO, ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU DISCUSS AND YOU TACKLE LONELINESS, AND EXISTENTIAL ISSUES.

TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT GOES INTO YOUR CHOICES OF RULES?

MYSTERIOUS, I SUPPOSE.

WHAT MOVES ME MAY NOT MOVE SOMEBODY ELSE, IT IS A VERY PERSONAL CHOICE.

SOMETIMES, THAT WILL BRING ME TO A VERY SMALL, SUPPORTING CHARACTER.

SOMETIMES, IT WILL BRING ME TO A COMEDY.

USUALLY, IT IS SOMETHING THAT I FEEL VERY COMMITTED TO, AND FEELS PERSONALLY RELEVANT TO ME.

MAYBE QUESTIONS I HAVE ABOUT MY LIFE.

IN THIS CASE, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY, IT WAS NOT ONLY THE STORY OF MOHAMMED, WHICH WAS CENTRAL TO THE FILM AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE FILM THAT I WANTED TO SERVE AS A SUPPORTING ACTOR, REALLY, TO KEEP THE SPACE TO HAVE THAT BEAUTIFUL, EXTRAORDINARY PERFORMANCE, BUT ALSO, I WANTED TO INVESTIGATE NANCY'S --I SAY LONELINESS, BUT I DON'T THINK HE IS REALLY LONELY.

I THINK IT IS A SOLITARY MISSION.

I THINK WHEN YOU ARE ON A MISSION THAT OTHER PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND, THERE IS A SOLITARY QUALITY TO IT.

YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP WITH PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE YOU ARE A TERRORIST SO, I THINK THAT NANCY HAS MADE THESE CHOICES, I AM SURE SHE WOULD HAVE DONE IT DIFFERENTLY, BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THE THINGS THAT WE COMMIT TO, THAT WE KNOW ARE JUST AND GOOD, DO TAKE A TOLL ON OURSELVES.

I AM SURE YOU PROBABLY FEEL THAT WAY, AS WELL.

>> YEP.

I DO.

BUT, FOR ANOTHER DISCUSSION.

NANCY, WHAT ABOUT THE LEGAL CONUNDRUM THAT IS VERY REAL, STILL, AT GUANTANAMO?

PRESIDENT BIDEN, THE LATEST TO PROMISE TO CLOSE IT DOWN.

WHAT ARE THE LEGAL ISSUES GOING ON RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, I HOPE IT WILL HAPPEN, AND WE HOPE THAT THIS MOVIE WILL SERVE TO HELP THAT AT THIS POINT.

WE CAN HAVE FOREVER PRISONERS.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME AND HAS BEEN HELD, MANY OF THEM, SINCE 2001.

SO, THE FIRST THING THAT I BELIEVE THAT BIDEN NEEDS TO TACKLE IS TO GET THOSE PEOPLE OUT, BUT WE HAVE TO GET RID OF THE MILITARY COMMISSIONS, AND THEY HAVE TO HAVE PROPER DUE PROCESS AND EVERY CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.

THEY HAVE TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONFRONTATION, WHICH THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE IN THE MILITARY COMMISSION.

SO, WE JUST HAVE TO PUT IT TOGETHER AND GET IT DONE, AND IT CAN BE DONE.

>> OKAY.

WONDERFUL TO HAVE YOU ON, JODIE FOSTER, AND NANCY HOLLANDER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> 30 PEOPLE ARE STILL DETAINED IN GUANTANAMO BAY TODAY.

AS THE WAR IN UKRAINE RAGES ON, RUSSIA MAY BE TURNING TO NORTH KOREA FOR NEW ARMS AND SUPPLIES ACCORDING TO THE U.S. KIM JONG UN IS REPORTEDLY PLANNING TO MEET PRESIDENT PUTIN IN RUSSIA, SOON.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS EXAMINING THE KIM DYNASTY, AND WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR THE KINGDOM.

NOW, TIPPED TO BE HIS SUCCESSOR, KIM JONG UN'S SISTER HAS RISEN TO BE THE MOST POWERFUL WOMAN IN THE NATION.

KIM YO-JONG OVERSEES THE REGIME'S PROPAGANDA DEPARTMENT.

SHE HAS TAKEN A LEAD ON THE COUNTRY'S FOREIGN POLICY.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, "THE SISTER," TRACES HER SPECTACULAR RISE, AND IS JOINING HARRY TO DISCUSS THE KIM DYNASTY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

FIRST, A LITTLE BIT OF NEWS THIS WEEK, THERE WERE REPORTS THAT KIM JONG UN COULD MEET WITH RUSSIA FOR A POSSIBLE ARMS DEAL.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?

>> YES, AND IT WOULD MAKE SENSE.

ALTHOUGH, WHEN KIM JONG UN MET PUTIN FOR THE FIRST AND ONLY TIME, KIM JONG UN FELT, WELL, NOT PROPERLY RESPECTED BECAUSE PUTIN, THE NEXT DAY, FLEW DOWN TO BEIJING TO ATTEND A MAJOR CONFERENCE WHILE LEAVING HIS FOREIGN GUEST IN HIS HOME COUNTRY.

BUT, TODAY, WE ARE LIVING IN A DIFFERENT WORLD SINCE RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE, THE FORMER COLD WAR DYNAMICS OF MOSCOW, BEIJING, AND PYONGYANG STANDING USA, WITH JAPAN AND SOUTH KOREA ON ITS SIDE.

THAT DYNAMIC HAS RETURNED IN FULL FORCE, AND NATURAL INTEREST, OF COURSE, OVERRIDES ANY WOUNDED PRIDE, AND NORTH KOREA WANTS TO SELL ARMS TO RUSSIA, AND RUSSIA NEEDS THOSE NORTH KOREAN AMMUNITIONS AND ARTILLERY.

>> SO, NORTH KOREAN AMMUNITION AND ARTILLERY COULD BE USED IN EITHER BACKSTOPPING RUSSIA'S ARSENAL, OR ACTUALLY USED IN THE CONFLICT IN UKRAINE?

>> I THINK THE LATTER.

HAS QUITE REPEATEDLY ALLEGED, STATED THAT NORTH KOREA HAS BEEN SECRETLY SUPPLYING ARMS TO RUSSIA, SINCE FEBRUARY 2022.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO A POTENTIAL ARMS DEAL WITH RUSSIA, I MEAN, IS NORTH KOREA INTERESTED IN THIS, IN ANY PART, TO JUST BE A THORN IN THE SIDE OF THE WEST, IN ADDITION TO SELLING ARMS?

>> WELL, THAT IS THAT ELEMENT, TOO, OF COURSE.

NORTH KOREA WANTS TO BE TAKEN MORE SERIOUSLY.

ALTHOUGH, ALL OF NORTH KOREA'S INTERLOCKING, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES, TAKES NORTH KOREA QUITE SERIOUSLY, IN TERMS OF THEIR CAPABILITIES.

BUT, NORTH KOREA HAS ANOTHER AGENDA, WHICH IS TO SWAP AMMUNITION, ARTILLERY, AND SO LONG, IN RETURN FOR HIGHER MILITARY TECHNOLOGY.

ICBM TECHNOLOGY, SOME LONG- RANGE MISSILE TECHNOLOGY FROM RUSSIA.

SO, THESE NATIONAL INTERESTS ARE ON PAR FOR RUSSIA AND NORTH KOREA, THAT OVERRIDES ANY TENSIONS AND DIPLOMATIC PROTOCOL, ANY CONCERN OF VIOLATION OF SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS THAT EXCLUSIVELY, EXPLICITLY BEEN NORTH KOREA'S TESTING OF BALLISTIC MISSILES, BUT NORTH KOREA HAS COMPLETELY IGNORED SUCH RESOLUTIONS, AND ON OVER 100 OCCASIONS, HAVE EARLY 2022, AND WHAT DOES RUSSIA SAY?

NOTHING.

WHAT DOES CHINA SAY?

NOTHING.

IN FACT, THE TWO BIG NATIONS, RUSSIA AND CHINA, HAVE WORKED TOGETHER AND COOPERATED TO BLOCK ANY MOVEMENT WITHIN THE UN SECURITY COUNCIL, TO ISSUE EVEN A VERBAL CONDEMNATION OF NORTH KOREA.

>> SO, LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK, THIS IS CALLED "THE SISTER."

IT IS A FASCINATING PROFILE OF SOMEONE THAT, HONESTLY, I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT.

WHAT WAS FASCINATING TO ME WAS THE ROLE YOU SAY SHE IS REALLY PLAYING INSIDE THE REGIME.

ALMOST MEETING FROM BEHIND.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT KIM YO-JONG?

>> WELL, THE SISTER OF THE CURRENT NORTH KOREAN DICTATOR, KIM JONG UN IS, TO ME, A FASCINATING FIGURE, BECAUSE OUT OF THIS BUFFOONISH, THIS WEIRD BRITISH, MALE, BUFFOONISH CONSTANCY THAT IS THE NORTH KOREAN LANDSCAPE, OUT OF THIS HAS RISEN A POWERFUL FEMALE LEADER, A CO-CRIME BOSS OF HER FAMILY REGIME IN THE NORTH KOREAN DYNASTY, WITH HER FINGER ON THE PROVERBIAL NUCLEAR BUTTON, THAT IS.

KIM JONG UN HAS ISSUED SEVERAL WRITTEN STATEMENTS, THREATENING TO PREEMPTIVELY NUKE SOUTH KOREA, AND IN TERMS OF CHECKS AND BALANCES IN NORTH KOREA, THERE IS NOTHING OF THAT KIND TO SPEAK OF.

IT IS AN ABSOLUTIST KIND OF STYLE MONARCHY, PRETENDING TO BE A REPUBLIC.

SO, SHE IS A REALLY POWERFUL WOMAN WHO HAS, WELL, AMBITIONS.

>> YOU MENTIONED IN THEORY, SHE COULD DECIDE WHO IS MONITORED, PROMOTED, REWARDED, BANISHED, OR EVEN TIED UP TO BE EXECUTED IN THE TOWNSQUARE OR IN A SPORTS STADIUM BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

SHE HAS AN OFFICIAL TITLE, WHICH IS THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF PROPAGANDA AND AGITATION DEPARTMENT.

WHERE DOES SHE GET THIS POWER FROM?

>> FROM HER BROTHER, AND IT HAS BEEN THE PREROGATIVE OF THE CURRENT AND PREVIOUS AND SO- CALLED LEADERS.

KIM JONG UN IS THE THIRD GENERATIONAL SUPREME LEADER OF HIS NATION, AND ALL THREE LEADERS HAVE ENJOYED SUCH PREROGATIVES.

MY CONTENTION THAT KIM YO-JONG NOW HAS THAT POWER, AS DEPUTIZED BY HER BROTHER, COMES FROM REPORTS WITHIN NORTH KOREA, FROM DIFFERENT REGIONS OF THE COUNTRY, THAT KIM JONG UN HAS BEEN ISSUING EXECUTION ORDERS OF OFFICIALS AND SENIORMOST OFFICIALS FOR GETTING ON HER NERVES.

SHE DOESN'T LIKE THE WAY SO AND SO LOOKS AT HER, OR TALKS TO HER.

SO, THAT KIND OF CAPRICIOUS AND CRUEL POWER SPEAKS OF THE >> YOU DESCRIBE IN THE BOOK HOW HER KIND OF BRAND HAS INCREASED IN VISIBILITY SINCE THE DEATH OF HER FATHER.

HOW SO?

>> WELL, KIM JONG UN HAS RAPIDLY ELEVATED, FORMALLY ELEVATED HIS SISTER SINCE THE ONSET OF COVID IN EARLY 2020, SINCE MARCH 3rd, 2020, KIM YO- JONG HAS ISSUED OVER 40, 40, WRITTEN STATEMENTS, SAYING THAT SHE IS RUNNING HER NATION'S FOREIGN POLICY FOR SOUTH KOREA, THE U.S., AND BEYOND.

AND WE SEE A STREAK, A VERY UNIQUE STREAK OF LUCRATIVE, FILE, SARCASTIC NOTES IN ALL OF THESE WRITTEN STATEMENTS.

SO, THAT IS HER SIGNATURE, AND SHE HAS CALLED PRESIDENT BIDEN, THE CURRENT SOUTH KOREAN PRESIDENT AS WELL AS HIS PREDECESSOR, ALL KINDS OF NASTY >> YOU KNOW: THE FIRST TIME A LOT OF PEOPLE GOT A VIEW OF WHO SHE WAS WAS DURING THE 2018 OLYMPIC GAMES.

SHE WASN'T THERE FOR THE SPORT, SHE WAS THERE FOR THE POLITICAL NAVIGATION OF IT ALL.

YOU OUTLINE HERE THAT SHE HAD SOME OF HER REQUESTS MET, SOME OF THE PRECONDITIONS.

TELL US WHAT SOME OF THOSE WORK?

>> SO, KIM YO-JONG MADE HER INTERNATIONAL DEBUT ON A VERY GRAND STATE, THE OLYMPICS THAT SOUTH KOREA HOSTED IN FEBRUARY 2018.

SHE WAS QUITE --WELL, THE SOUTH KOREAN PUBLIC AND THE GOVERNMENT, IT SEEMED, WERE QUITE MESMERIZED BY HER PHYSICAL PRESENCE IN SOUTH KOREA.

BUT, SINCE THEN, KIM YO-JONG HAS GONE THROUGH SORT OF A METAMORPHOSIS, A TRANSFORMATION FROM THE PREVIOUS CURRENT YEAR'S PRINCESS FROM PYONGYANG TO A FOUL MOUTH, MEAN FEMALE DESPOTISM.

SINCE 2020, KIM YO-JONG HAS ISSUED VARIOUS CONDEMNATIONS OF SOUTH KOREAN LEADERSHIP, AND MADE AN EXCLUSIVE DEMAND THAT IS TO COME UP WITH A CRIMINAL LAW FOR SOUTH KOREA TO COME UP WITH A CRIMINAL LAW THAT CRIMINALIZES SENDING ANYTHING, LEAFLETS, TOOTHPASTE, A PAIR OF SOCKS, OR ANYTHING ACROSS THE BORDER FROM SOUTH KOREA INTO THE NORTH.

NOW, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS, MANY OF THEM ARE NORTH KOREAN IMMIGRANTS WHO HAVE RESET IN THE SOUTH, HAVE BEEN FOR MANY YEARS, WITH SUCH AMENITIES, ONE DOLLAR BILLS, THE BIBLE, AND SO ON, INTO THE NORTH.

RAISING AWARENESS ON THE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN NORTH KOREA.

OF COURSE, THE NORTH KOREAN REGIME DOES NOT LIKE THIS, AND IN JUNE, 2020, KIM YO-JONG, UNDER HER OWN NAME SAID, COME UP WITH A LAW, CRIMINALIZES SUCH EXPLETIVES, AND SEND THESE PEOPLE TO JAIL.

WITHIN HOURS, VARIOUS SOUTH KOREAN GOVERNMENT MINISTRIES SAID, OKAY, YES, WE WILL WORK ON IT.

AND INDEED, THE LAW WAS PASSED A FEW MONTHS LATER, IN LATE 2020.

A SENIOR BRITISH PARLIAMENTARIAN HAS COINED THE TERM GAG LAW TO REFER TO THIS KIM JONG UN DICTATED LAW.

SO, HER PRESENCE, HER COMMAND, HAS BEEN MET BY THE PREVIOUS SOUTH KOREAN GOVERNMENT, WITH DIFFERENCE.

>> SO, WHAT IS HER ROLE WHEN IT COMES TO DIPLOMATIC THINGS?

BECAUSE IN 2018, IT WAS A HISTORIC MEETING BETWEEN THE NORTH AND SOUTH.

THE FIRST LEADER TO DO SO IN DECADES.

THAT WAS ALSO THE YEAR THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP MET WITH THE NORTH KOREAN LEADER.

SO, WHERE DOES SHE FIT?

WHAT IS HER ROLE?

>> WELL, I THINK KIM YO-JONG IS AN UNPRECEDENTED, DIPLOMATIC WEAPON IN THE NORTH KOREAN DIPLOMATIC TOOLBOX.

WHY?

BY VIRTUE, SIMPLY BY VIRTUE OF SHE WAS BARELY 30 YEARS OLD.

AND HER GENDER, YOU KNOW, SHE BRINGS THIS UNPRECEDENTED, SOFTER, FEMININE GLOW TO THE VERY BRUTISH, COLD, IMAGE THAT IS HER DESPOTIC REGIME.

SO, I THINK THE TENDENCY, THE LATENT PATRONIZATION, THE TENDENCY TO PATRONIZE YOUNG WOMEN, SEXISM, LATE IN MANY OF US, I WOULD SUGGEST MEN AND WOMEN, IS AN ADVANTAGE TO THE KIM REGIME.

YOU KNOW, IT IS EASIER TO STOMACH, TO SWALLOW INSULTS COMING FROM A YOUNG, PRETTY WOMAN, THEN A LESS PHOTOGENIC AND DOWN LOOKING BROTHER.

SO, SHE CASTS A SOFTER GLOW ON HER REGIME.

WHAT SHE SAYS SEEMS TO STRIKE MANY AS GENUINE AND REAL.

SO, WHAT SHE DID IN 2018 TO SET THE STAGE FOR HER BROTHER'S DEBUT ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE, IN HIS CAMPAIGN TO WIN MANY CONCESSIONS FROM THE U.S. AND FROM SOUTH KOREA AND OTHER COUNTRIES.

SHE HAS TAKEN ON THIS ROLE.

I THINK SHE RELISHES IT, BEING UNDER THE SPOTLIGHT, ISSUING VARIOUS CONDEMNATIONS AGAINST WORLD LEADERS, STICKING HER NATION'S UNDYING SUPPORT THAT NORTH KOREA WILL ALWAYS STAND IN THE SAME TRENCHES AS THE HEROIC SOLDIERS AND PEOPLE OF RUSSIA, REFERRING TO THE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

SO, I THINK SHE IS QUITE ENJOYING HERSELF BEING OUT THERE.

>> THERE WAS THE CASE OF THE AMERICAN PALESTINE, AND I WONDER, GAVE A FORCED CONFESSION, AND YOU SAY THIS HAD KIM YO-JONG'S FINGERPRINTS ALL OVER IT.

EXPLAIN?

>> SO, AT THE TIME, KIM YO-JONG HAD BEEN RUNNING HER NATION'S VERY POWERFUL PROPAGANDA AND AGITATION DEPARTMENT.

SINCE 2014, WE HAVE SEEN SOME REALLY VILE, HOMOPHOBIC, RACIST, SEXIST INSULTS HURLED AGAINST A VERY RENOWNED, RETIRED JUDGE FROM AUSTRALIA, WHO IS OPENLY GAY, AGAINST PRESIDENT OBAMA, VERY RACIST, VIAL AGAINST PRESIDENT OBAMA, AND ALSO AGAINST THE DEN SOUTH KOREAN FEMALE PRESIDENT, THE FIRST EVER FEMALE ELECTED, IN EAST ASIA.

WAS DETAINED, TAKEN HOSTAGE IN JANUARY 2016 WHILE ON A VISIT TO NORTH KOREA, AND THEN NORTH KOREA MADE ALL OF THESE TRUMPED UP CHARGES.

OF COURSE, GIVING A COURSE CONFESSION AND SO ON.

AND BECAUSE KIM YO-JONG WAS IN CHARGE, THE DE FACTO LEADER OF HIS DEPARTMENT, THE PROPAGANDA AND AGITATION, I SEE VERY SINISTER ATTEMPTS TO MAKE THIS UNDER THE OFFICES OF THE CIA, HOW HIS METHODIST CHURCH, LOCAL CHURCH, PROMISED TO GIVE HIM $200,000 FOR DOING THINGS TO THE NORTH KOREAN REGIME, TO INSULT THE NORTH KOREAN REGIME.

NONE OF THIS IS TRUE, AND A FEDERAL JUDGE IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ISSUED A RULING FINDING NORTH KOREA GUILTY OF HOSTAGE TAKING, OF TORTURE, AND OF ILLEGAL, EXTRAJUDICIAL KILLINGS, AND I PARTICIPATED IN THAT LAWSUIT AS AN EXPERT WITNESS AND STUDIED THE ISSUE CAREFULLY.

SO, YES, THAT WHOLE UNPLEASANT, VERY CRUEL CASE HAS HER SIGNATURE ALL OVER IT, I WOULD SEE TEST.

>> DO YOU THINK THE FATHER WAS MORE IMPRESSED WITH THE DAUGHTER?

AND IF SO, WHY NOT MAKE HER THE AIR IN THE FIRST PLACE?

WHO HAVE SPOKEN WITH THE LATE NORTH KOREAN LEADER, KIM JONG UN, THE FATHER, KIM JONG UN SAID THAT IF HIS DAUGHTER, KIM YO-JONG, WHO IS THE YOUNGEST CHILD, THE YOUNGEST DAUGHTER, OBVIOUSLY, IF SHE WERE A BOY, HE WOULD HAVE ANOINTED HER AS THE HEIR.

>> WELL, NORTH KOREA, IN PRETENSE, COULD BE A COMMUNIST SYSTEM WHERE THERE IS GENDER EQUALITY.

THE REALITY IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

IT IS A MALE, CHAUVINISTIC MALE- DOMINATED, PATRIARCHAL SOCIETY.

EVEN THE NOTION OF A FEMALE SUPREME LEADER IS QUITE JARRING FOR ORDINARY NORTH KOREANS, AS WELL AS THE LEADERSHIP.

BUT, I CONTEND FOR NOW, FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE OVER THE NEXT 10, 15 YEARS OR SO, UNTIL ONE OF KIM JONG UN'S CHILDREN COMES OF AGE, REACHES ADULTHOOD, THERE ARE SIMPLY NO OTHER VIABLE CANDIDATES TO TAKE OVER, IN CASE KIM JONG UN OTHER THAN HIS SISTER, KIM YO- JONG, BECAUSE IT IS A ROYALTY, A MONARCHY, YOU HAVE TO MAINTAIN POWER WITHIN THE FAMILY, AND KIM YO-JONG IS THE ONLY VIABLE CANDIDATE IN THAT SHE IS CAPABLE, SHE IS OUT THERE VERY MUCH, AND SHE IS AMBITIOUS, AND SHE, AGAIN, IS THE ONLY MEMBER OF THE FAMILY, THE DYNASTY.

>> SO, I HAVE TO ASK THIS FROM A REPORTER'S PERSPECTIVE.

THERE ARE NO DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS, THERE ARE NO INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS, IT IS STILL AN INCREDIBLE ENCLOSED SOCIETY.

HOW DO YOU GET ENOUGH MATERIAL, HOW DO YOU FIND OUT ENOUGH INFORMATION TO WRITE A PROFILE OF THIS WOMAN?

>> WITH GREAT DIFFICULTY.

I HAVE LOOKED OVER EVERY SINGLE STATEMENT, AND I BELIEVE, EVERY REFERENCE TO KIM YO-JONG IN KOREAN, THAT IS NORTH KOREAN DOCUMENTS AS WELL AS IN SOUTH KOREA, WITH THE HELP OF RESEARCH ASSISTANCE, AND ALSO EVERY SINGLE REFERENCE TO HER IN CHINA, IN TAIWAN, OBVIOUSLY ALL ENGLISH LANGUAGE SOURCES.

AND I HAVE BEEN STUDYING NORTH KOREA AND TEACHING ABOUT IT FOR THE PAST 20 YEARS.

SO, I HAVE WATCHED HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF NORTH KOREAN DOCUMENTARY, AND I SAW THAT HER BODY LANGUAGE AND THE BODY LANGUAGE OF OTHER OFFICIALS IN KIM JONG UN'S PRESENCE AND IN HIS SISTER'S PRESENCE IS BASICALLY THE SAME.

THEY TREMBLE, THEY AVERT THEIR GAZE.

IT IS CONSIDERED RUDE, IF NOT CONFRONTATIONAL, FOR AN UNDERLING TO LOOK AT THE SUPERIOR RIGHT IN THE EYE, FOR MORE THAN A COUPLE OF SECONDS.

SO, THE WAY NORTH KOREAN OFFICIALS BEHAVE IN THE PRESENCE OF KIM JONG UN AND HIS SISTER SAYS A LOT ABOUT HOW THEY VIEW THE SISTER AS ALMOST EQUAL TO KIM JONG UN HIMSELF.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "THE SISTER."

MOST DANGEROUS WOMAN IN THE WORLD.

AUTHOR SUNG-YOON LEE, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> A FASCINATING LOOK BEHIND THE CURTAIN.

THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD NIGHT FROM LONDON.

>>>