Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," COULD IT BE DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN?

THE END OF SUMMER IS ONCE AGAIN BRINGING WITH IT BIG QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT LIES AHEAD WITH COVID.

THIS TIME AROUND, WE HAVE A NEW TOOL TO FIGHT IT.

BUT, WILL IT BE ENOUGH?

AND, WILL ENOUGH PEOPLE EVEN USE IT?

THEN LATER, WITH STEVE BANNON CHARGED YET AGAIN FOR HIS SCHEMES SURROUNDING TRUMP-- NO PARDON, THIS TIME-- A LOOK BACK AT MY CONVERSATION WITH THE "NEW YORK TIMES'" AUTHORS OF "THIS WILL NOT PASS: TRUMP, BIDEN, AND THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE."

>> Braude: SCHOOL IS BACK IN SESSION.

THE WEATHER IS TURNING COLDER.

AND THAT MEANS, AS IT HAS FOR THREE YEARS NOW, EXPERTS ARE ANTICIPATING SOME LEVEL OF A COVID SURGE.

BUT WITH A NEW BOOSTER, COULD THIS FALL BE DIFFERENT?

OR, WILL COVID FATIGUE AND THE C.D.C.

'S LATEST MOVE TO RELAX RESTRICTIONS LEAD TO MORE BAD NEWS?

WE'LL DISCUSS THAT-- SURPRISING, AT LEAST TO ME-- NEW RESEARCH ON LONG COVID, AND NEW RULES AROUND COVID IN OUR STATE'S SCHOOLS, WITH DR. SABRINA ASSOUMOU, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND AN INFECTIOUS DISEASES ATTENDING PHYSICIAN AT BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER.

AND, JULIA RAIFMAN, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR IN HEALTH LAW, POLICY, AND MANAGEMENT AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY.

SHE ALSO LEADS THE COVID-19 U.S. STATE POLICY DATABASE.

WILL COME TO YOU BOTH, GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE, JULIA, STARTING WITH YOU, AS WE HEAD INTO COLDER WEATHER WHAT IS THE LEVEL OF SERIOUSNESS AND WHAT IS PROJECTED IN MASSACHUSETTS IN OUR REGION?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WE HAVE HAD A REALLY NICE SUMMER WHERE WE HAVE HAD LOWER TRANSMISSION, HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GATHER MORE SAFELY OUTDOORS AND WE DO SEE PEOPLE ARE GATHERING IN CROWDED INDOOR SETTINGS WITHOUT MITIGATION SO WE CAN EXPECT THE LEVELS TO INCREASE.

WE ALSO SEE THAT LEADERSHIP ON POLICIES REALLY MAKES ITS DIFFERENCE.

WHEN YOU SEE THOSE INCREASES WE START TO SEE A SURGE IN COVID IF WE IMPLEMENT MASK MANDATES DURING THOSE PERIODS IT CAN REDUCE TRANSMISSION, REDUCE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO GET COVID, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE HOSPITALIZED, MISS WORK BECAUSE OF COVID, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO DIE.

>> Braude: HOLD YOUR BREATHE ON MASK MANDATES I WOULD SAY CONSIDERING WHERE PUBLIC OFFICIALS ARE.

BUT MAYBE, WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT OF WHERE WE ARE, DOCTOR, AS WE HEAD INTO THE FALL?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IF WE LOOK, AT THE LONG VIEW OF THE PAST TWO YEARS WE LEARNED A LOT AND ARE IN A DIFFERENT PLACE.

WE HAVE VACCINES.

WE KNOW A LOT ABOUT THE IMPACT OF INDOOR MASKING.

WE HAVE TESTING AND WE HAVE OUTPATIENT TREATMENT.

HOWEVER WHAT WE DO KNOW IS IN THE NORTHEAST ESPECIALLY IN MASSACHUSETTS THE FALL AND WINTER IS THE TIME WHEN WE SPEND MORE TIME INDOORS AND CASES ARE GOING TO GO UP.

>> Braude: SO THE NEW BOOSTERS ARE AVAILABLE.

I WOULD LIKE YOU TO SAY STARTING WITH A PERSONAL TALE.

I REGISTER AT THE LOCAL WALGREEN'S NEAR WHERE I LIVE IN CAMBRIDGE AND NOT ONE SINGLE O POINTMENT WAS TAKEN, NOT ONE THIS COMING WEEKEND.

SO DOCTOR, STARTING WITH YOU, IS THERE ANY REASON ANYBODY 12 OR OTHER SHOULD NOT-- OVER SHOULD NOT BE GETTING THE BOOSTER ASSUMING THEY DIDN'T GET ANOTHER BOOSTER AT LEAST SOMETIME IN THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS?

>> YEAH, NO, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

WE SEE PEOPLE ARE GETTING TIRED OF MORE VACCINES AND WE ARE ALL WONDERING WHAT IS THE END GAME HERE.

BUT THE IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE IS THAT ALTHOUGH THE VACCINE HAVE BEEN HELPFUL, WHAT WE DO SEE IN THE SCIENCE IS THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED WANG IMMUNITY AND THE PROTECTION IS GOING LOWER, AND WE ALSO HAVE VARIANTS THAT ARE-- OVERCOME THE PROTECTION FROM OUR VACCINE, SO ST REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF US WHO ARE ELIGIBLE TOO GET THIS NEW VACCINE, THIS IS HOW WE INCREASE THE PROTECTION.

>> Braude: JULIA RAVEMAN, I LOOKED AT THE NUMBERS, I'M SURE YOU KNOW THESE MUCH BETTER THAN I, BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD AT LEAST ONE BOOSTER SHOT, IS UNDER 50% NATIONALLY, HIGHER IN MASSACHUSETTS, CLOSE TO 60 PERCENT, THE NUMBERS FOR TEENAGERS ARE ABSOLUTELY ABYSMALLY LOW.

THERE IS NO REASON OTHER THAN CROSSING ONE'S FINGERS TO BELIEF THERE IS GOING TO BE A BETTER RECEPTION FOR THIS BOOSTER THAN THE ONES THAT CAME BEFORE, IS THERE?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WHAT WE DO MAKES THE DIFFERENCE SO THIS IS REALLY A TIME FOR LEADERS, PUBLIC OFFICIALS TO STEP UP AND COMMUNICATE TO THE PUBLIC, TO COMMUNICATE TO COMMUNITIES WHERE THERE ARE LOWER VACCINATION AND BOOSTING RATES.

THE IMPORTANCE OF GETTING VACCINATED NOW, THIS IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THOSE OTHER LAYERS OF MITIGATION.

SO WE'RE REALLY GOING TO BE RELYING HEAVILY ON THOSE VACCINES AND BOOSTERS.

WE SEE THE BOOSTERS MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND I CERTAINLY WILL BE GOING TO GET THE NEW VACS EASTERN, THE NEW BOOSTER AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

>> Braude: STAYING WITH YOU, IF SOMEONE SAID TO YOU WHO WAS NOT AN ANTIVACS NUT BUT SOMEBODY WHO IS JUST ANXIOUS, NERVOUS AND SAID WELL, I READ THAT THERE WEREN'T EVEN CLINICAL TRIALS WITH HUMANS, THEY ONLY TESTED THIS NEW OMICRON VARIANT RESPONSIVE VACCINE ON MICE, THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME WHAT IS THE RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO LOOK TO THE SAFETY DATA AND SEE THAT WE HAVE SEEN COVID VACCINES HAVE BEEN VERY SAFE AND COVID IS NOT SAFE.

SO IF YOU WANT TO BE NERVOUS, BE NERVOUS ABOUT COVID.

BE NERVOUS ABOUT GETTING LONG COVID, BE NERVOUS ABOUT BEING HOSPITALIZED OR HAVING SOMEONE IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD WHO IS.

WHAT WE SEE OF THE VACCINES IS THAT THEY ARE SAFE AND THEY HELP PREVENT THOSE SEVERE AFFECTS OF COVID IT IS TOO LATE TO GET VACCINATED ONCE YOU START TO DEVELOP THOSE COVID SYMPTOMS AND YOU REALLY WANT TO HAVE THAT PROTECTION BEFORE THAT HAPPENS, ESPECIALLY AS WE SEE COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION WILL LIKELY INCREASE IN THE COMING WEEKS.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, A LOT OF DOCTORS FROM WHAT I READ AT LEAST IN AN ATTEMPT TO MAKE THIS MORE NORMAL FOR PEOPLE TO GET THE COVID VACCINE ARE SUGGESTING THAT PEOPLE GETTING IT, TO ACCOMPANY THEIR ANNUAL FLU SHOT.

DO YOU SUBSCRIBE TO THAT KIND OF DOCTORLY ADVICE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

GET YOUR, PLEASE GET YOUR COVID SHOT AT THE SAME TIME AS YOU ARE GETTING YOUR FLU SHOT BECAUSE THE OTHER THING WE ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT IS THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A PRETTY BAD FLU SEASON IF WE ARE LOOKING AT WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE STRKS PROBABLY GOING TO BE A VERY DIFFICULT WINTER SO GETTING VACCINATED IS GOING TO BE VERY IMPORTANT AGAINST THE FLU, FROM HEADLINES IN THE MED YARKS I TALKED ABOUT THE, ST IMPORTANT TO CORRECT SOME OF THE INFORMATION THAT IS BEING DISSEMINATED.

SO NUMBER ONE, UNDERSCORING WHAT THE DOCTOR SAID, THE MRNA ARE NOT NEW, WE HAVE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED IN THIS COUNTRY AND OVERSEAS INTL.

THE KEY THING IS THAT THE VACCINES WERE TESTED IN HUMANS T WAS A BA ONE, BUT IT WAS TESTED IN HUMANS IN CLINICAL TRIAL WHAT WE DO NOT HAVE AT THIS MOMENT IS THE VA5, VA4 COMBINED WITH THE-- STRAIN, THE ONE WE WILL BE USING.

BUT THE APPROACH HAS BEEN USED SO IT IS KEY TO SORT OF MAKE THAT DISTINCTION THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT GETTING SOMETHING THAT IS COMPLETELY NEW AND HASN'T BEEN TRIED.

>> UNDERSTOOD.

I WANT TO SAY WITH YOU DOCTOR FOR A SECOND.

ONE THING I'M CONCERNED ABOUT, BECAUSE INITIALLY I LOVED THE IDEA OF SAYING SINCE MOST PEOPLE GET A FLU SHOT, JUST DO IT WHEN YOU GET A FLU SHOT, THE FLIP SIDE AND PLEASE DISABUSE ME OF THIS CONCERN, DOCTOR, IF YOU THINK IT DESERVES TO BE DISABUSED.

THE FLU IS SERIOUS STRKS NOWHERE NEAR AS SERIOUS AS COVID IS.

I LOOK AT THE NUMBERS IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" EVERY DAY, THEY ARE ABYSMAL, 450 PEOPLE A DAY, THAT IS 150,000 PEOPLE ARE GOES TO DIE THIS YEAR IN THIS COUNTRY FROM COVID.

MAYBE 20,000 WILL DIE, ONE SEVENTH AS MANY FROM THE FLU.

ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THAT PAIRING OF VACCINES IS GOING TO SUB LIMINALLY CONVENTION PEOPLE THAT COVID IS SORT OF LIKE THE COMMON COLD KIND OF THING AND NOT AS DANGEROUS AS IT CONTINUES TO BE?

>> IF IS INTERESTING THAT YOU MENTIONING THAT BECAUSE FOR ME I WOULD SAY I AGREE WITH YOU.

THAT COVID IS NOT THE FLU AND IT IS MORE SERIOUS FROM WHERE WE SIT RIGHT NOW IF WE LOOK AT HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE DYING OF COVID, BUT I HAVE BEEN TAKING CARE OF PATIENTS EVERY YEAR AND THE FLU IS NO JOKE.

MANY PEOPLE DIE OF THE FLU EVERY YEAR SO IT IS DEFINITELY SOMETHING THAT WE TAKE VERY SERIOUSLY BUT I THINK THAT WHAT WE ARE DOING BY RECOMMENDING THOSE AT THE SAME TIME, WE'RE USING AN OPPORTUNITY, INSTEAD OF HAVING YOU COME FOR YOUR FLU SHOT, WE JUST WANT TO YOU GET VACCINATED SO WE CAN GET AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE PROTECTED.

>> LET'S MOVE TO SCHOOLS FOR A SECOND.

I ASSUME EVERYBODY WATCHING, AT LEAST THE KIDS KNOW STATEWIDE AT LEAST, NO MORE MASK MANDATES, NO MORE TESTING REQUIREMENTS.

I WENT TO YOUR TWITTER PAGE, YOU HAVE SOMETHING CALLED EQUITY POLICY PRINCIPLES FOR SCHOOLS.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

WHAT ARE YOU PRESCRIBING FOR SCHOOLS ANYWHERE, I GUESS, BUT PARTICULARLY HERE.

>> YOU KNOW I THINK WE'RE REALLY TRYING TO SUPPORT SCHOOLS AND TEACHERS AND SCHOOL COMMUNITIES.

AND I, WE SEE THAT SCHOOLS ARE REALLY ESSENTIAL FOR OUR SOCIETY, THAT WE WANT THEM TO BE PLACES WHERE PEOPLE CAN BE HEALTHY AND LEARN IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT IS CONDUCIVE TO LEARNING, AND BEING ABLE TO STAY IN SCHOOL WITH AS LITTLE DISRUPTION AS POSSIBLE.

WE ALSO WANT EDUCATORS AND STAFF WHO WORK IN SCHOOLS TO BE THERE SAFELY.

AND SO IT IS IMPORTANT THAT SCHOOLS, THAT WE DO HAVE POLICIES THAT HELP TO KEEP THEM SAFE.

WE UNFORTUNATELY THEY ARE CROWDED INDOOR SETTINGS WHERE COVID SPREADS QUICKLY.

SO WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE WHO IS IN A SCHOOL SETTING IS VACCINATED AND BOOSTED.

BEFORE A SURGE HAPPENS.

WE ALSO WANT TO BE PREPARED TO BRING IN LAYERS OF MITIGATION IF THERE ARE SURGES.

SO WE DO SEE THAT YEUFERLAL MASK POLICIES ARE FAR MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A HANDFUL OF INDIVIDUALS.

>> IS THE STATE PRESCRIPTION TOO LAX IN YOUR ESTIMATION.

>> I THINK WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE MUCH STRONGER LEADERSHIP ON SURGE PREPAREDNESS THAN HAVING A POLICY PLANNED.

AND CERTAINLY WE UNDERSTAND IT HAS BEEN A LONG PERIOD.

IT'S VERY POLARIZED.

BUT I THINK THAT WE HAVE SWUNG A LITTLE TOO FAR.

AT FIRST WE HAD REALLY EXTREME MITIGATION MEASURES BUT LEARNED MORE ABOUT THE VIRUS AND WE HAVE CLUNG TO THIS PERIOD WHERE WE HAVE NO MITIGATION AND WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING IS.

COULDING BACK AND SAY LET'S USE WHAT WE LEARNED IN A SMART WAY AND TO REALLY STEP UP THOSE LAYERS OF MITIGATION IN SURGES.

NOW UNFORTUNATELY WE NEED TO BE READY TO DO THAT QUICKLY.

BASED ON WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN OTHER SETTINGS WHERE WE HAVE SEEN THE START OF SCHOOL LEAD TO THOSE SURGES.

SO CAN WE STEP UP ROUTINE TESTING.

CAN WE STEP UP VACCINE AND BOOSTER DELIVERY?

CAN WE STEP UP AND IMPLEMENT UNIVERSAL MASK POLICIES EVEN JUST FOR A LIMITED PERIOD OF A FEW WEEKS WHEN WE DO SEE SURGES.

>> Braude: WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT, I MENTIONED AT THE TOP SOME NEW RESEARCH THAT I FOUND SURPRISING IN THE JOURNAL OF AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, PSYCHIATRY, RESEARCH SAYING PSYCHOLOGICAL DISTRESS BEFORE COVID INCREASES THE RISK OF GETTING LONG COVID MORE THAN FLT THINGS LIKE OBESITY OR ASTHMA OR HYPERTENSION, THAT SORT OF THING.

THAT IS POWERFUL INFORMATION.

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT IN A SOCIETY THAT IS UNDERRESOURCED IN TERMS OF HELPING PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH TO BEGIN WITH, QUICKLY IF YOU CAN.

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO LEAD ON TAKING CARE OF ONE ANOTHER, SUPPORTING ONE ANOTHER THROUGH THIS IN ALL SENSES, AND SO THAT IS TRUE WITH AVOIDS LONG COVID AS WELL.

LONG COVID IS A SERIOUS CONSEQUENCE.

WE HAVE A LOT MORE TO LEARN ABOUT LONG COVID BUT IF WE LEAD WITH COMING TOGETHER TO PROTECT ONE ANOTHER WITH MAKING SMALL SACRIFICES AND TO WEAR MASKS FOR A FEW WEEKS SO WE DON'T HAVE ANYBODY LEFT WITH LONG COVID OR LEFT WITHOUT A RELATIVE, IN A FEW WEEKS THEN WE CAN GET THROUGH THIS TOGETHER.

>> I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT BUT I READ YOU SAY THAT YOU WERE CONCERNED THAT OF THE SAME STRUCTURAL RACISM THAT MADE BLACKS MORE LIKELY TO GET COVID TO BEGIN WITH, ARE THE SAME ONES THAT WILL CREATE BARRIERS TO PEOPLE GETTING ADEQUATE CARE FOR LONG COVID.

ARE PEOPLE FOCUSED ON THAT OR IS THAT JUST ANOTHER STATISTIC THAT WON'T MEAN ENOUGH TO PEOPLE IN POWER?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT.

>> I THINK THAT THAT-- SORRY G AHEAD.

>> QUICKLY.

>>.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY I REALLY HOPE THAT WE START PAYING ATTENTION TO LONG COVID.

BECAUSE WHAT WE ARE DISCOVERING THAT FOR A VERY LONG TIME WE ARE GOING TO BE DEALING WITH THE LONG-TERM CONSEQUENCES OF COVID SO WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS FOR US NUMBER ONE TO GET DATA AND UNDERSTAND WHO IS BEING IMPACTED AND ALSO MAKE SURE EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE.

>> Braude: WE SHOULD MAKE CLEAR WE DON'T KNOW PRECISE NUMBERS ON LONG COVID BUT ARE HIGHER THAN ORIGINALLY PROJECTED.

YOU HAVE A CONCERN QUICKLY IF YOU CAN.

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WE DO NEED SURVEILLANCE DATA ON LONG COVID, WE NEED TO ON HOW MANY CHILDREN IN OUR SCHOOLS ARE AFFECTED BY T HOW MANY TEACHERS ARE AFFECTED BY T HOW MANY ESSENTIAL WORKERS ARE AFFECTED BY IT AND THINK ABOUT WHAT WE CAN DO TO SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFECTEDDED BY LONG COVID STRUCTURALLY.

THE BEST THING WE CAN DO IS PREVENT T THE BEST MEASURES WE CAN TAKE IS TO REDUCE TRANSMISSION AND FOR THAT WE NEED LEADERSHIP ON THESE HARD POLICY DECISIONS THAT ARE ALIGNS WITH EQUITY AND INCLUSION, WE WANT TO SUPPORT OUR POLICY MAKERS, WE CAN GET THROUGH THIS TOGETHER.

WE HOPE THAT THE EQUITY POLICY PLAN WE PUT OUT WILL BE HELPFUL FOR POLICY MAKERS.

WE ARE REALLY GRATEFUL, A HUNDRED MD'S AND Ph.D'S HAVE ENDORSED IT AND 150 EXPERTS SO WE HOPE THAT CAN BE A RESOURCE AS WE GO THROUGH THE COMING YEAR.

>> FROM YOUR LIPS TO THEIR EARS.

>> Braude: DR. SABRINA ASSOUMOU, AND JULIA RAIFMAN, THANKS.

NEXT UP, FORMER TRUMP AIDE STEVE BANNON SURRENDERED TO AUTHORITIES TODAY IN NEW YORK, WHERE HE FACES MULTIPLE CHARGES FOR THE "WE BUILD THE WALL" SCAM.

THAT'S THE ONE WHERE HE AND OTHERS CONVINCED PEOPLE TO DONATE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO FUND THE INFAMOUS BORDER WALL, AND THEN ALLEGEDLY SPENT MUCH OF THE MONEY FOR THEIR OWN PERSONAL PURPOSES.

IT'S THE SAME THING THAT HE WAS ARRESTED AND CHARGED FOR BY FEDERAL AGENTS TWO YEARS AGO, BEFORE TRUMP PARDONED HIM.

BANNON IS ALSO STILL AWAITING SENTENCING FOR HIS CONVICTION ON FEDERAL CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS CHARGES BACK IN JULY.

JUST SOME OF THE LATEST CHAPTERS IN THE FALLOUT FROM TRUMP AND HIS SUPPORTERS' ASSAULT ON U.S. DEMOCRACY-- AN ASSAULT ABOUT WHICH WE SEEM TO LEARN NEW THINGS EVERY DAY.

THAT'S THANKS IN LARGE PART TO REPORTERS LIKE "NEW YORK TIMES" NATIONAL CORRESPONDENTS JONATHAN MARTIN AND ALEXANDER BURNS.

IN THEIR BOOK, "THIS WILL NOT PASS: TRUMP, BIDEN, AND THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE," WE LEARNED, AMONG OTHER THINGS, OF WOULD-BE SPEAKER KEVIN McCARTHY SAYING HE WOULD URGE PRESIDENT TRUMP TO RESIGN AFTER THE INSURRECTION, AND LEARN MORE ABOUT THE POLITICAL CALCULATIONS OF MITCH McCONNELL, WHO REPORTEDLY CALLED TRUMP A "DESPICABLE HUMAN BEING" BEHIND CLOSED DOORS-- BUT STILL REFUSED TO CONVICT HIM TWICE.

THE AUTHORS JOINED ME SHORTLY AFTER THE BOOK CAME OUT.

IS THA FORB KOMENTING OUT, ALEX, JONATHAN, CONGRATULATIONS AND THANK YOU BOTH FOR RUINING MY WEEKEND.

I APPRECIATE IT.

(LAUGHTER) >> A WEEKEND WELL SPENT!

>> Braude: EXACTLY.

>> A BEACH READ.

>> Braude: THE SUBTITLE OF YOUR BOOK IS "TRUMP, BIDEN, AND THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE."

I THINK YOU COULD HAVE ADDED "IF THERE IS ONE."

WHEN YOU TWO WERE REPORTING AND WRITING THE BOOK, IS THAT NOT WHAT YOU WERE THINKING EVERY NIGHT AT THE END OF YOUR WORK, ALEX?

>> ONE WAY TO LOOK AT THE TITLE IS THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA TO HAVE A FUTURE AND SECURE THE FUTURE TO HAVE THE COUNTRY.

THERE ARE MULTIPLE VISIONS OF AMERICA, AND ONE IS DONALD TRUMP SORT OF QUASI-STRONG MAN VIEW OF GOVERNMENT, AND THE OTHER IS A MORE NOSTALGIC AND CONVENTIONAL JOE BIDEN.

I THINK WHAT WE SHOW HERE IS THAT BOTH OF THOSE APPROACHES, OBVIOUSLY IN VERY DIFFERENT WAYS, HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF THE POLITICAL MOMENT, AND THE BATTLE TO DEFINE WHAT COMES NEXT IN SO MANY WAYS IS ONLY JUST STARTING.

>> Braude: JONATHAN, WE SEE McCARTHY, WE KNEW, HUMILIATING HIMSELF, GOING DOWN TO MAR-A-LAGO, BENDED KNEE THING, DOUBLY HUMILIATING HIMSELF ABOUT TO COLLEAGUES HE WOULD SURGE THE PRESIDENT TO RESIGN, YOU RELEASED THE AUDIO RECORDING, OBVIOUSLY HUMILIATION AGAIN.

WHAT HE SAID.

LINDSEY GRAHAM, TRUMP PUTS HIM ON SPEAKER WITHOUT TELLING HIM.

AND THERE ARE SO MAIP MORE.

WHY DO SO MANY REPUBLICAN LEADERS TOLERATE BEING HUMILIATED AT THE HAND OR FEET OF DONALD TRUMP AND STILL PLEDGE LOYALTY TO THE LEADER?

WELL, IT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

>> TWO IMPORTANT ISSUES.

ONE IS RELEVANCE.

I THINK KEVIN McCARTHY AND LINDSEY GRAHAM WANT TO BE IN THE ROOM, AS THEY SAY, SUCKING UP TO TRUMP, AND EVEN HUMILIATING THEMSELVES IS PART OF THE BARGAIN COMING TO TRUMP.

AS YOU MENTIONED IN THE BOOK, WE HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY SCENE-- LINDSEY GRAHAM IS PUT ON SPEAKERPHONE BY DONALD TRUMP AND TOLD TO PERFORM AND TOLD THE PEOPLE THERE TO INTERVIEW DONALD TRUMP, NOT JUST HOW GREAT A POLITICIAN DONALD TRUMP IS AND HOW GREAT HIS ENDORSEMENT AND HOW DAMN GOOD A GOLFER TRUMP.

IS I THINK TRUMP LIKES TO DO THAT TO PEOPLE TO PROVE TO PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE HIS SUPPLICANTS, TO DO SO IN A MOST EXCRUCIATING FASHION.

I THINK THE OTHER REASON IS STRAIGHT-FORWARD POLITICS.

REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS BELIEVE THEIR VOTERS ARE STILL BESOTTED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THEREFORE THE POLITICIANS HAVE TO PLEDGE LOYALTY TO DONALD TRUMP.

I THINK TOMORROW IF KEVIN McCARTHY BELIEVED THE RANK-AND-FILE G.O.P.

VOTER IN AMERICA HAD ENOUGH OF DONALD TRUMP, THE PARTY WOULD GLADLY MOVE ON FROM DONALD TRUMP.

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF LEADERS FOLLOWING VOTERS, WHEN IT COMES TO TRUMP AND THE G.O.P.

SPEAKING OF THE LEADERS, >> Braude: CAN A G.O.P.

LEADERSHIP THAT-- AT LEAST IN PRIVATE-- HAS UTTER CONTEMPT FOR TRUMP, AND A G.O.P.

ELECTORATE THAT SEEMS TO STILL LOVE HIM, HOW LONG CAN THAT CO-EXISTENCE STAND?

>> WELL, WE'RE ABOUT SEVEN YEARS AND CUNTING NOW, RIGHT?

LOOK, I MEAN, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE DO IN THIS BOOK IS, A LOT OF FOLKS, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF YOUR VIEWERS, HAVE PROBABLY HEARD AND READ FOR YEARS THAT REPUBLICAN LEADERS CANNOT STAND DONALD TRUMP.

AND THE WAY THEY TALK ABOUT HIM IN PUBLIC IS NOTHING LIKE THE WAY THEY TALK ABOUT HIM IN PRIVATE.

AND I THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTANDABLY HAVE GOTTEN TIRED OF HEARING THAT, AND SKEPTICAL OF THE REPORTING THAT SUGGESTS THAT, BECAUSE SURELY PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY HAD A PROBLEM WITH DONALD TRUMP WOULD NOT SORT OF KISS THE RING AND OTHER THINGS AS THEY DO AGAIN AND AGAIN.

BUT I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THIS BOOK IS, THEY TALK ABOUT HIM DIFFERENTLY IN PRIVATE, AND I DON'T THINK IT'S SUSTAINABLE FOREVER, PARTICULARLY IF HE RUNS FOR PRESIDENT AGAIN AND SORT OF SIGNALS AT THE OUTSET THAT HE WON'T ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION UNLESS IT'S A VICTORY FOR HIM.

I THINK WE'VE SEEN IN THE PRIMARIES THIS MONTH, INCLUDING MOST SIGNIFICANTLY IN GEORGIA, EVEN REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS, THERE'S A LIMIT TO HOW MUCH THEY WANT TO TALK ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S GRIEVANCES ABOUT THE PAST.

>> Braude: ALEX, STAYING WITH YOU ONE SECOND-- OTHER THAN THE LUNATICS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN FACTION, DO ANY OF THE LEADERS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN, AS THEY'RE WILLING TO SAY PUBLICLY TO MAKE DONALD TRUMP HAPPY?

>> I THINK THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.

I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHO BELIEVE THERE IS MORE FRAUD THAN IS DEMONSTRATED.

I BELIEVE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SINCERELY BELIEVE THAT.

I DON'T THINK WE ENCOUNTERED ONE PERSON IN THIS BOOK WHOM WE INTERVIEWED, OR OBTAINED ANY REPORTING IN THIS BOOK, TO SUGGEST ANYONE IN THE ABSOLUTE LEADERSHIP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OTHER THAN DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF AND THE REAL INNER OLDER COMMITTED PALACE GUARD TRULY BELIEVE THERE'S ANY DOUBT THAT JOE BIDEN IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> Braude: JONATHAN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S MOST TERRIFYING YOU TOUCH ON, WHETHER IN THE INTRODUCTION OR WHEREVER, YOU MENTIONED A NUMBER OF UNELECTED LEADERS WHO STOOD UP TO DONALD TRUMP AND THWARTED THE WORST-- FAUCI, GENERAL MILLEY, ET CETERA.

--I HAD FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ESPER ON THE RADIO THE OTHER DAY, AND IT'S THE SAME SORT OF THEME.

IT WAS INDIVIDUALS DOING THE RIGHT THING, WE BELIEVE, AGAIN, TO THWART THE WORST OF DONALD TRUMP, BUT THERE WERE NO INSTITUTIONAL GUARDRAILS IN PLACE THAT, IF THEY WEREN'T THERE, AND IT APPEARS THAT EVEN ON BIPARTISAN THINGS LIKE THE ELECTORAL FORMAT, WHATEVER, THERE'S NO INTEREST IN CONGRESS IN CREATING THE INSTITUTIONAL GUARDRAILS, SO WE CONTINUE TO BE DEPENDENT UPON THE GOOD BEHAVIOR AND GOOD WILL OF UNELECTED INDIVIDUALS.

IS THAT THE SORRY STATE OF AFFAIRS?

>> OR IN THE CASE OF MIKE PENCE, ELECTED.

I THINK JANUARY 6th COULD HAVE BEEN A LOT WORSE-- PHYSICALLY, IT COULD HAVE BEEN A LOT WORSE.

THERE COULD HAVE BEEN PEOPLE ASSAULTED AND KILLED.

BUT JANUARY 6th COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE IF MIKE PENCE BENDS TO THAT PRESSURE.

I THINK OUR PRECIOUS DEMOCRACY WAS BASICALLY IN THE HANDS OF MIKE PENCE THAT DAY, AND, YOU KNOW, IF NOT FOR MIKE PENCE'S GOOD JUDGMENT IN THAT HOUR, WE WERE FACING A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS IN THE MOST IMPORTANT DEMOCRACY ON EARTH, TELLS YOU ABOUT THE RELIANCE ON INDIVIDUALS AND JUST HOW CORRODED OUR INSTITUTIONS HAVE BECOME.

THIS IS THE BIG QUESTION COMING FORWARD AND WHY THIS BOOK IS SO IMPORTANT, THIS IS NOT ABOUT HISTORY.

THIS IS ABOUT TODAY AND TOMORROW AS MUCH AS IT IS ABOUT YESTERDAY.

THIS IS A CURRENT STORY.

THERE'S A REASON WHY WE CALL THE BOOK "THIS WILL NOT PASS."

WE'RE STILL LIVING THROUGH THE STRESS TEST TO OUR DEMOCRACY, AND WE'LL SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT, AS SOON AS POTENTIALLY 2024.

>> Braude: YOU'RE PRETTY EVEN-HANDED IN THE BOOK, YOU DON'T SPARE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY EITHER, NO LEVELS OF ACCUSATIONS OF CORRUPTION EITHER.

JOE BIDEN UNWILLING TO SETTLE ITS DIFFERENCES, WHICH, ARGUABLY A PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE IN TERMS OF THE PROGRESSIVE AND MORE MAINSTREAM WING OF HIS PARTY.

THE ATTEMPT TO BE BOTH A HEALER AND A TRANSFORMATIONAL PRESIDENT, WHICH MAY BE OXYMORONIC KIND OF THING, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HOW THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS PORTRAYED IN YOUR BOOK, ALEX?

>> I THINK YOU DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB RIGHT THERE, JIM.

I THINK WE SAW THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY RIDE TO POWER IN 2020 WITH THIS BROAD AND IN MANY WAYS UNWIELDY COALITION THAT GOES ALL THE WAY FROM BERNIE SANDERS AND A.O.C.

ON THE FAR LEFT TO FORMER BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS IN THE POLITICAL SECTOR, AND THE ONLY THING THAT REALLY UNITED THEM WAS THE SENSE THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS A DANGEROUS PRESIDENT WHO COULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO KEEP POWER.

I THINK WHAT WE SHOW IN THE BOOK IS JOE BIDEN AND HIS PARTY NEVER FUSED THAT ANTI-TRUMP COALITION INTO SOMETHING MORE COHERENT AND DURABLE, THAT ALLOWS THEM TO OPERATE THE GOVERNMENT IN A RELIABLE WAY.

I DON'T THINK THAT WE SPARE EITHER SIDE IN THIS BOOK.

I ALSO THINK THAT WE'RE VERY VERY CLEAR THAT THE TWO SIDES ARE NOT EQUIVALENT, IN THEIR DEFECTS AND IN THE DEPTH AND THE NATURE OF THEIR DEFECTS.

BUT THE REALITY IS THAT YOU BELIEVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN AND DANGEROUS BECAUSE IT'S ENTHRALLED TO THIS DISGRACED FORMER DEMAGOGUE, DONALD TRUMP.

THE BURDEN IS ON THE DEMOCRATS TO SHOW PEOPLE THERE'S ANOTHER WAY.

>> Braude: AS I READ THE BOOK OVER THE WEEKEND, I READ A QUOTE FROM MALCOLM TURNBULL, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA.

MODERATE CONSERVATIVE.

HERE IT IS.

YOU KNOW THE GREAT LINE, "THIS IS NOT US, THIS IS NOT AMERICA?"

YOU KNOW WHAT?

IT IS, ACTUALLY.

RIGHT AFTER I READ THAT, I WENT ONLINE AND SAW AN INTERVIEW YOU TWO DID ON THE "CBS MORNING NEWS," AND YOU SAID SOMETHING, JONATHAN, LIKE THE OPTIMISTIC TAKE ON THIS IS, VOTERS CONTROL THEIR DESTINY.

BUT I WOULD ARGUE THEY DON'T CONTROL THEIR DESTINY.

CAMPAIGN FINANCE LAWS, VOTER SUPPRESSION LAWS, A SUPREME COURT THAT DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN WHERE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE, OVERWHELMINGLY, ON ISSUE AFTER ISSUE.

LIKE ABORTION, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO, HOW DO THE VOTERS IN AMERICA IN 2022 AND BEYOND CONTROL THEIR DESTINY?

>> I MEAN, I'M REFERRING TO DONALD TRUMP, WHO LOST THE PRESIDENCY AND LOST BOTH CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE.

WE GET THIS QUESTION A LOT FROM PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK, WHICH IS, WHEN IS DONALD TRUMP GOING TO FACE ACCOUNTABILITY?

FROM A LEGAL STAND, I CAN'T LITIGATE THAT.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO HIM JUDICIALLY.

BUT CLEARLY, DONALD TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY PAID A PRETTY SEVERE PRICE FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

THEY LOST THE PRESIDENCY IN BOTH CHAMBERS OF CONGRESS, ALMOST ENTIRELY AS A REBUKE OF DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF.

SO I THINK THERE HAS BEEN SOME ACCOUNTABILITY.

BUT, LOOK, ARE THERE STRUCTURAL CHALLENGES FOR DEMOCRATS IN THIS COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY GIVEN THEIR INABILITY TO WIN A LOT OF THE RURAL VOTERS WHO 15 YEARS AGO WERE WINNING COMFORTABLY?

THERE ABSOLUTELY ARE.

BUT I THINK, CLEARLY, DEMOCRATS HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE WIDE DISDAIN FOR DONALD TRUMP IN AMERICA.

BUT AS ALEX MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO, THEY HAVE NOT YET FIGURED OUT A WAY TO DO SO IN A COHERENT WAY IN PART, YES, BECAUSE OF THEIR TIGHT MAJORITY BUT ALSO IN PART BECAUSE THEIR COALITION IS SO UNGAINLY RIGHT NOW.

AND I THINK BIDEN HAS NEVER TAKEN A SIDE BETWEEN THE KIND OF MODERATE ANTI-TRUMP WING THAT JUST WANTS TO TRY TO MAKE INCREMENTAL PROGRESS IN THE MORE PROGRESSIVE, IDEOLOGICAL WING, BUT WANTS TO REMAKE THE COUNTRY.

BIDEN NEVER PUT IN WITH EITHER CAMP WHO'S PAYING THE PRICE TODAY.

>> Braude: 30 SECONDS LEFT.

SPEAKING OF VOTERS HAVING THEIR SAY, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ON IS BE THE OTHER SIDE OF VOTERS ON ABORTION, CLIMATE CHANGE, GUN SAFETY MEASURES-- THEY'RE ABOUT TO RETURN CONGRESS, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, TO POWER TO CONGRESS QUICKLY.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> IT IS AN UNFORTUNATE REALITY THAT WE EVER A BINARY POLITICAL SYSTEM.

WE ARE NOT AS DYNAMIC.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING WITH THE PARTY IN POWER, YOU ONLY HAVE ONE OTHER ALTERNATIVE, AND PEOPLE OFTEN PULL THE LEVER WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE POLICIES INVOLVED.

AFTER THAT, THEY REGISTER WHAT POLICIES ARE INVOLVED AND GO BACK TO THE SAME BINARY CHOICE IN 2024.

IF IT SEEMS LIKE WE VEER BACK BETWEEN RIGHT AND LEFT, THERE'S A STRUCTURAL REASON FOR THAT.

>> Braude: JONATHAN MARTIN, ALEXANDER BURNS, THANKS.

TERRIFIC AND TERRIFYING ALL AT ONCEK I REALLY ENJOYED IT GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> APPRECIATE IT.

THE BOOK AGAIN IS "THIS WILL NOT PASS: TRUMP, BIDEN, AND THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "TALKING POLITICS."