I am trying to make an actual TV show.

It's so hard to find a funny show that isn't filthy.

I watch them, but I don't want to.

Let's do this.

Fire!

Like lots of fire.

I'm so dedicated.

So cool.

Where does it go from there?

You know.

Oh, I forgot your attention.

Now.

This is bigger than you can handle.

Well, there are new plans for tonight.

About four.

Fun.

Oh, what are you waiting for?

Let's go.

Cool.

Absolutely.

All right, one more big round of applause for Penelope.

And before I bring up today's moderator, we also do a big round of applause for our theater team that just switch not over so fast.

They're so awesome, you guys.

Please help me welcome today's moderator, Miss Abby White from the Hollywood Reporter.

Of course.

Hello, everyone.

Did you enjoy that?

Great.

We're going to have a discussion about that very lovely pilot.

But first, I would like to bring out the people who made that possible.

Mark Duplass and Mel Aslin.

Thank you.

You guys seem so relaxed.

I feel like I'm so overdressed, so stuffy.

I'm good.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

So the first guest chair suck as you get some comfortable chairs.

Come all the way to Denver.

Yeah.

This is actually a really great setup.

I really love this.

So the first question I have for you is really about a theme, and that's because I'm a junkie.

Penelope is really brave.

And as I was watching the pilot, I kept thinking about how as I've gotten older, I've maybe lost some of that bravery.

I'm curious why you were making this.

In what ways did you find yourself being brave in the writing?

The directing, the casting?

All this is such a good question.

Yeah.

You want to start with the writing?

Yeah.

I mean, I can start.

I birth this story in the early part of the pandemic.

You know, some quiet time in my home.

My daughters at the time were, 13 and nine.

I was thinking about, what are their destinies going to be like?

What's the world going to be like when they come into it?

I was thinking about my own life, and things that I felt disconnected from my relationship to nature.

What?

I had lost all those things.

And the story just started coming to me.

And because I had all kinds of extra time before I knew it, I'd written eight episodes of the show.

And I was like, all right.

So I have this thing.

I feel really passionate about it.

I feel very protective of it.

The pantheon of young adult television, does not tell me that this is going to be what they're buying right now because, this is not euphoria.

This is something.

This is something else.

So it's a weird space to define, by the way.

It's it's a very, very broad.

Yeah.

So that's when, you know, I did what I do.

I called Mel, and I said, I want to give this to you.

It just came out of me.

And thankfully, she connected to it.

And some of the similar things that I did.

And so we did some rewriting together, and we kind of found the, the form of it, and, and as you, as you can see from the pilot, it's got a much more meditative pace.

It's much more akin to what's happening in, like, the Norwegian slow TV movement than it is to modern television.

Still, you know, we are Duplass Brothers Productions and we've sold shit to HBO and Netflix, so we're like, fuck it, let's go sell the show.

And we brought it and everybody was like, this is so beautiful and so unique, and it's so deeply connected to something that I've lost.

We can't make this here.

We're looking for the next euphoria.

Yes.

And maybe, like, the animals talk back to her.

If there were a lot of really threatening animals, maybe.

And we weren't surprised by that, necessarily.

So I guess that's where you're asking about bravery.

That's where we hit the crossroads of, like, well, what are we going to do?

Like, we might be able to force this down the throat of a traditional buyer, but it's going to be going through a lot of development, a lot of changes.

And we're very precious about this.

Yeah.

And it was, you know, I think at that point, too, there was a moment where I think Mark and I said, should we change this for what they're asking for?

And that was a pretty quick moment.

And we very quickly said no.

And just kind of took a moment, said, should we do this?

Like, should we go make a whole season of TV on our own and pay for it and just go for it and not wait around for somebody to say yes?

And so we did.

And I think that was for us, like such a brave moment.

It was scary as fuck.

It was so scary.

I mean, I look at that like I'm on the morning show and I can use a lot of that money.

But it was so scary.

Yeah, yeah, cause we've done independent films before where, you know, pay a few hundred thousand dollars and we go out and we take the film and you can sell it at Sundance, but there really isn't a model yet of, like, independently made television, where you make a whole season and try and take it out and sell it.

But we were like, well, let's just try.

Yeah.

And it was like where we normally do a two week shoot for our self-financed stuff.

This was an eight week and we were cross boarding an entire season and we're like, I'll direct them all.

Yeah.

Male directed every episode.

Because we had to cross borders.

Thank you.

Yeah.

No, it was, So every day I think we did scenes from, like five different episodes in one day.

So it was just this, like, mental puzzle of having to remember where we're at and.

And then do it on such a budget because we were paying for it ourselves.

So it was I mean, even in the edit, I was like, we're going to hold on things longer than most people are used to in TV.

Like, I can buy this in any film, but like on TV, I haven't seen this pacing yet.

And we're going to we're going to stay true to the pacing.

We wrote for.

I ask this a lot because most TV shows that are wired are not written by teenagers.

They're written by adults.

This is really kind of your first foray into the space.

I'm curious about how you connected with the 16 year old girl.

Like what prompted you to get into that headspace to tell this story?

Well, if you looked at my Spotify playlist, you'd be like, oh, I get it.

I see.

He's a is he a swiftie?

I think he's a swiftie.

But really, like, I mean, Penelope is an emissary of me.

And of Mel, in some ways, you know, this is.

I feel soul sick, I feel disconnected, I feel something is is is wrong and something is off.

And when I go into the backpacking and hiking community, there is a sense of generosity.

There is a sense of community that I've never really experienced before.

And when I thought about, you know, putting that through the lens of a 16 year old girl, this really felt like a project that that could be, you know, dare we say, like a needle mover.

There are all these articles going around right now about these chosen Luddite societies of young girls who are like, my phone is destroying me.

I have to have this in order to stay connected to my world.

But like, they're they're they're doing these things where they go out into the woods for like a week and they leave their phones at home and they're connecting to this kind of euphoria that they have lost a different kind of euphoria.

And and so we felt like, wow, if we could make something that feels like a little bit of a wish fulfillment show, that that is not a direct representation of what life is, but maybe a slightly fantastical way of of the way that life could be, and that I have enough experience in this community to know that people are incredible.

You know, when you meet them, like you're supposed to feel scared when she gets in the van with that guy because we know what that means.

But when you in this community, it's not like that.

It's different.

And so that felt really good.

I definitely we definitely ran a bunch of the dialog by my daughters.

And then, Megan, who is our lead actress, did a bunch of really good work with Mel in terms of, like, all right.

Yeah, some some 45 year old white dude wrote this line.

Let me let me fix this real quick.

Yeah.

I also don't think the kid voice in me has ever left.

So there was definitely some of that.

And one of my best friends is 14 years old.

So it's also that, yeah, I think it was a lot of it was, though I think our child like voices coming out, too.

I think there's certain things where we're like, would they say this today?

And we're like, whatever they're going to say, it.

I think why I'm attracted to why and why it's such a weird split.

I mean, you have like Percy Jackson and then you have euphoria, right?

And I think the thing that's so interesting about that space is that we're always, always coming of age.

Right.

Like that process actually never stops.

And so it gets sort of interesting as an adult to reflect on the ways that, you know, you had that initial experience, which felt incredibly overwhelming and definitive when you're a teenager, which is the first time you're kind of experiencing it and then how it evolves and reshapes as you become an adult.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Like, you know, I really like Neil Gaiman.

I really like what he does.

And he, I read his, his, like, book of letters.

And there was something really great he said in one of his speeches one time, and I'm going to paraphrase this poorly, but he basically said, like, as a writer, if you if you choose to live this life, at some point you're going to come to this crisis of conscious where you realize you've probably spent your whole life, inwardly navel gazing on your own feelings, and you might feel like you have wasted your life being very selfish, trying to get to your own profound thoughts which aren't that profound in the long run.

And he's like, there's one way to combat this, right?

For young adults.

He's like, because when you are taking that and you are giving it to them, this is the special time where you can actually be deeply impactful in your life.

And that will help to save you from that, dark moment of the soul, which I like that.

So you spoke earlier about the challenges of going from two weeks to eight weeks self-funding.

I'm curious about what exactly in that process was really different for you and where were the biggest challenges?

I think obviously movie making and TV making are different.

You've brought up things like pacing, how long you sit on a shot.

But this was a this was truly a new endeavor for you.

And it's it will probably be if somebody tries to replicate it, a new endeavor for them.

So I'm curious.

Yeah.

I mean, I'll let Mel talk to the specifics of, you know, what it was like trying to shoot that and direct that stuff.

But, you know, for my take on this, you know, kind of being the financier of this and our company being the financier of it, it was an it, place of extreme vulnerability for me because we've gotten to the place as a company where we really feel like we know how to make an independent film for the proper price and set someone up to, really succeed with it.

Whereas even if it's not creatively exactly what we hoped it would be, we can probably still make the money back, still set up this new filmmaker to go on and make other things, and everybody's going to walk away happy.

So the safety and our independent film model, we pulled everything out for this.

There is no existing ecosystem for independent television.

We've done a couple of things kind of similar to this, like animals in room 104, but they were still basically set up and paid for by a studio ahead of time.

So we were really just like flying by the seat of our pants.

So I felt really scared, and I had to think about value for the first time in a long time and in a new way, you know, had to think about, you know, okay, I'm at once a businessman and I'm at once a creative person, right.

And I'm trying to reconcile these things.

And I had to really get solvent with Mel and just say, the value of this show is that it gets out into the world and that it reaches people who feel a similar way and that maybe, maybe starts to pave a trail, for like a way of making television that is going away right now with the reduction of the streamers in our business.

We have full on Reaganomics happening right now on television.

There is the big IP stuff, and there's the tiny reality stuff and that interesting middle of that place where where Fleabag and I May Destroy You and Baby Reindeer come from is just gone.

And I want to fight for that.

And so I had to be willing to lose my shirt in order to do that and bet on something really important to me, and hope that someone would come in and say, yes, we want to put this out.

Or maybe we figure out how to independently distribute it or something and, and do that, take that loss leader mentality, which I haven't had to do in a long time.

It was really scary.

Yeah.

But I think because we didn't build it originally to be self-financed.

That's true.

That was we were very good.

We didn't listen to our own advice actually.

But yeah, yeah, whenever up-and-coming filmmakers or television makers ask us like, what is your advice?

We're always like, don't take your million dollar idea and try and cram into a $100,000 film.

Build something for $100,000.

Be smart and responsible and a healthy human being and we did not do that on this one.

Which, you know, I don't regret it in the long run, but it was like I was thinking about this the other day.

I'm like that it with the number one thing we tell people is build it.

But again, we didn't know.

And sometimes you gotta be dumb.

Yeah, exactly.

Like we're always trying to be smart.

But every now and then you guys do something really stupid.

Yeah, exactly.

No, but I mean, I think, you know, to the question of, like, going from two weeks to eight weeks on a self-financed budget, I think the biggest thing, I mean, I've been working in indie film and TV for 15 years, and the one thing I have always, always learned is like to be a responsible, healthy and smart and best filmmaker you can possibly be is just be ready to pivot.

And so this was just like pivots every second because every I mean, we had every weather possibility and a fire, happening like the forest next to me and torrential rain.

And the show gets kind of big in the coming episodes too.

Yeah.

We're in, like, the Pacific Northwest.

So it was just like having gone through the, like, training camp of indie film over and over again.

I was like, I can't be precious.

Let's do this.

We just got to make this.

So I want to ask about your cast because as someone who does love, why a casting is so important, it's like, I think more so sometimes I don't not knocking live action at all.

But I do think the cast chemistry and who your leads are, your audience really has to see themselves and these people and really deeply connect not just with them, but with their connections on screen.

So how did you go about that process in finding your leads?

I mean, our casting director saw about 400, I think she told me, young women and then dwindled it down to like 100.

And I think I watched half of those.

And then I had Mark watch like 25 or, you know, we just, like everybody kept taking their paths.

And, ultimately it was it was like one of those weird moments where you know, Mark and I had a friend, Lynn Shelton, who had been the producing director on the show Little Fires Everywhere.

And I remember when she was working on that, she was like, there's this kid, Megan Scott, and she had told me about her, and it wasn't until suddenly I'm in this zoom and Megan's face pops up and we're reading and I'm like, oh my God, you're the girl.

And she was so great.

And I like Will totally admit, like, I was like, you kind of look like me when I was younger.

And there's like something there that's like spiritually working for me.

And then, and then you saw her and you were like, no question.

Yeah.

It was it was kind of a no brainer.

And she had played Reese Witherspoon's daughter and Little Fires Everywhere.

And I was working with Reese at the time, and I was like, all right, what do you think?

And she had nothing but incredible things to say about her.

And it just felt kind of a little magical.

Oh, kismet.

You also happen to have a you yes.

Star that you kind of you for it.

Yeah.

We're like the bring the euphoria guy in here and what you do there like if you like euphoria up next watch it like.

No I mean honestly I was like that kind of made me chuckle.

But I have had my eye on Austin for years.

And, you know, when we'd been talking, I just kept coming back to his name and and ultimately it was just he ended up being our co-producers, old roommate.

And she just called her up and he was like, I'm in.

So that was very easy.

I'm curious about how you assembled your team here.

Obviously you have done TV series before.

But this is sort of a different approach.

I'm curious if, you know, you had to convince some folks because your model was a little different, or if everybody was like, hey, I'm here, I'm signed on.

We've worked on it before.

I mean, Mel has, really dedicated crew of people who love her.

Nobody treats their crews better than than Mel does.

She really does.

So, I'll, I will say what she can't say for herself, which was everybody was ready to go, no matter what.

For her.

It just been 15 years producing.

Yes.

Then you'll get to do what you want.

But, you know, as to as to like the modeling of of of this, you know, it was it's been really fun and interesting because, you know, from taking out the show to figuring out who we're going to sell to from making the deals with our actors, no one knows how to do it.

It's the funniest thing.

The independent film is an entity.

It's like this is kind of how it's done.

You pay a little bit and there's some back end points in this.

With television, it's so wildly different because then there's future episodes and are they going to be in those, and how is this all going to happen?

So there was there was actually this childlike fun to we were just like making up New Deal structures as we have gone along, you know, you walk into the room to make a deal, an independent film, and everybody knows what to do.

You walk into this room to make the deals and was like, what are we doing?

How does this work?

And it's been really kind of fun.

We kind of in some ways feel like we're at the forefront of building kind of a new infrastructure right now that we think needs to happen.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it was I mean, Mark's totally right.

Like having to work out the actor deals when they're like, wait, who are you with?

And we're like, nobody.

We're by ourselves.

And, we want to sign him on for three seasons.

But it was, you know, we made it work.

And then.

Yeah, like Mark said, the the core creative team, you know, my cinematographer has been my partner for 13 years.

And, you know, the crew, and we shot in the Pacific Northwest.

So it was my whole Seattle crew who also all looked at me like I was crazy.

But they know Mark and I, so they're like, we're in.

We trust you.

And, you know, so I was literally about to just say something aloud that I know I'm not allowed to say yet, but.

Or am I allowed to say no?

It was.

If I think of it's the thing we all know about, I think it's okay.

I'm not going to restrict you till the end.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Let's.

Fine.

We are.

We can go with the flow.

I, I did have this question because this show is like this.

I don't want to be like, it's a pandemic show, but there's so much about your your production company focuses on human connection.

That's the thing that I love about the stuff that you put out.

But this was really human connection to nature, and I don't I sort of had to work remote and I couldn't connect with other human beings.

And so I was out in the world in a way that I was not out in the world ever.

As a city kid.

And it was really a, like, awakening and really, like, very lovely.

I so I was watching this and I was just, like, very curious if the pandemic hadn't happened, would you have written Penelope?

Yeah, that's a good question.

It's hard to it's hard to predict.

I know that, there was a quieting of my life in general, you know, like the noise of my life and all the things that we would normally be producing had come down, you know, and I was supposed to be shooting the morning show and then, like, I put on hiatus because we were obviously in the pandemic.

So certainly just the, the physical space and amount of time that it provided for me was a big key factor.

But I think emotionally I was brought to it because I was already feeling like slightly disconnected from the world in the way that we are starting to relate, due to everything that technology has brought to us in the last 10 or 15 years.

And then it was sort of a double down with, with the pandemic, you know?

So I think that that was that was a part of it.

But I do think, you know, from a structural standpoint of like, what's new and what's what's exciting and what are the kinds of things that we can do.

And the idea of independent television was brewing for a while before this happened.

You know, we made a show for HBO called room 104 that had some DNA that's similar to this.

That's like little there, almost like a little 1 or 2 plays that take place in a motel room and they can be made cheaply.

And we saw that HBO was like, oh, this is, this is cool.

Like, we don't have to pay as much for this.

And it's getting on the air and it's doing pretty well.

And so we kind of like that idea.

And we and as we saw the industry start to shrink away from that and shy away from it, which is even worse now, we were definitely feeling like this is a place we should be putting some some time and energy.

Yeah.

And I don't even think this was we had started to do self-financed indie TV a little bit, like I think we, we just premiered for pilots at South By and we did this four times, but with smaller, more sizable.

And I think to be clear, you know, the, the the difference of what we're trying to do here is not just make the pilot, because part of what the problem is, while it's really exciting to make the pilot, you are still in a position of asking someone to come forward and give you the money to make the rest of your series before it can be brought to a larger audience.

So we just asked ourselves that question like, is there a way that we can design the the scope and size of these shows so that we can make them independently 6 to 8 episodes, ideally, so that when we show up at the festival place like series vests, that this place can not only be a launching pad to show, here's my pilot, give me some money to make the next thing it can actually be.

Here's my whole show.

Come buy this thing as it is.

Maybe even buy my second season of it.

That we can build a marketplace here in these festivals, the way that Sundance did in the early 90s with independent film, an entire ecosystem sprung out of that job creation, super exciting, creative, outlier content becoming mainstream.

Like, I want to see that happen in TV.

And I think the only way personally, that we're going to see it.

Oh yeah, you can norm array.

We can get it.

We can go, go, go.

The only way you're going to we were felt that we were going to see it as to bring the whole season, you know, and try to do that.

So obviously there is the challenge of doing this, and hearing everyone say, this is so lovely.

No thank you.

But there's also you've now made it.

Yeah.

It has to go somewhere.

Yes.

What has that process crazy in an insane and insane six months, I would say.

And I'll try to be as honest as possible without naming names and making anyone feel bad, who we also tend to work with a lot, you know?

But, I do think it's important to, like, tell the truth and demystify this process.

You know?

So, when you're taking out an independent television show, no one knows how to approach it.

That whole thing we talked about earlier with making a deal, it was so confusing when people would raise their hand and say, we saw Penelope at Sundance, we want to see the rest of the series.

We would send them links to the rest of the series, and they would rate and say, oh, okay, we're we're interested in this.

Well, when it came time to negotiate the deal on the terms, everybody was literally just like a middle school schoolyard, like, you go first.

I don't know what to do.

What do you do?

I don't know how to do girl terms.

Oh, like it was.

So it was so confusing because, you know, I don't wanna get too in the weeds.

But I think a lot of you here are creators, and I think you deserve to kind of hear some of the semantics of this stuff.

Like there is the you make something and then one of the huge companies comes in and buys worldwide rights to your show in perpetuity.

They control it.

They put it out as an original on their service, and they tell you whether you're going to get a second season or not based upon how it does, which is kind of almost like the traditional model, except they didn't pay for it upfront to make it.

They just bought it afterwards.

That's cool.

There's probably a big paycheck with that.

The negative of that is you've then once again, put yourself in their hands to tell you whether you can make season two because it's all theirs.

Then on the bottom end of that dealmaking spectrum is like a much smaller deal, right?

Where you say, you know what, I'm going to sell just the rights to like the UK or Scandinavia and get it started there first and save my us.

Right.

So maybe it hits there and then if it hits there, then maybe my US rights become triply valuable because it was that that hit over there.

Is that going to be enough money to make you all your money back?

Probably not.

It's a little bit of a risk.

Or you could do like a US only sale, but maybe for like a short amount of time and then see if it does well and hold on to all the other international rights.

Here's the positives and negatives of that.

Positives are you remain the studio and in control of your destiny because you're going to probably sell each and every single territory, right?

So like I'm going to sell Germany, I'm gonna sell, you know, the US, some sell the UK, I'm sell Scandinavia.

And that way let's say season one goes out and we sold to nine different places.

Right.

And it didn't work in three of them.

That doesn't mean we're canceled.

That means those three pullback we still got six.

We want to make season two I find other distributors in those areas.

So I am actually with Mel and Jay in control of weather season to happens or not that's really beneficial.

Downside huge pain in the ass trying to sell all these individual territories a shit ton of work.

So we have been educating ourselves, going around and around on different conversations.

And who's the right distributor for this?

Should we sell us on it?

Should we do a worldwide deal?

A lot of people were very, very interested.

We got a lot of different kinds of offers.

I don't know.

Can can we just.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So this is what we did.

At the end of the day, we sold the US rights to Netflix.

Okay.

Show is going to come.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Shows is very invested in the white space.

I think they're very.

There has sort of dropped out a little bit and they are picking up a lot of that slack.

So it's wonderful to hear and what we have done because, you know, look we had a film deal with Netflix for a while.

I've known Ted Sarandos for a long time.

And what we have done is basically, absolved them.

And this, you know, again, there's a little bit in the weeds, but I think it's important as creators, you should know this stuff.

We have absolved them of the responsibility to make us their flagship show.

Right.

We're saying, listen, you got to go out and put out all those big shows and you owe it to this huge movie stars to promote them.

Otherwise you'll get in trouble with their agents and all that stuff.

You know what?

Just put us on the service, okay?

And we're going to sign a very short deal with you guys, and we're going to see how it does that way.

Netflix.

You're not taking an oversize, outsized risk on this show, and you're not going to be pissed at us if it doesn't work and turn around and say, independent television is never going to work, goddamn it, we're not doing it again.

We've mitigated their risk.

They've taken care of us enough so that we feel like this is a good place to put it.

If in a few years, the show is a rollicking success, great, they get the opportunity to re license it for them.

We are going to own the rest of the rights.

Still, the VOD rights for rentals, the rest of the world.

So we'll take a partner on to help us sell this and the rest of the world, piece by piece by piece by piece.

And then ideally, we see how we do on Netflix, and then we kind of round up and we're in control of whether season two happens in the event that it's a blowout success, you might see a bigger scope.

Season two.

In the event that it's a moderate success, we might write it for a smaller scope, but at least we're in the driver's seat.

Now as to whether we get to keep making this show.

So that felt like the best deal for us.

Yeah, yeah, I you do?

Well, you can clap.

Feel free.

Yeah.

This is good news.

Do you feel like this is something that can be replicated going forward?

Yes, 100%.

So we have three other series that are fully completed, six episodes apiece, all at different budget ranges.

You know, one of them is like a smaller documentary series that feels a lot more like How To with John Wilson or Fishing with John, you know, and that wasn't as big of a financial risk.

The mark that I directed.

And then we have another show that we kind of call like the, like, bizarre theater clown version of Broad City that is to these two female creators that are just incredible.

And they made this post-apocalyptic show about the last broadcast and what is really the nature of fake news these days.

And so we gave them full creative control, financial support, the cameras, everything.

We became their studio, like you go and so they just finish theirs.

And then there's, a third show I made with one of my oldest friends.

That's a very darkly funny examination of deep, white male guilt.

That's about these two guys who are really.

They're just trying to be good allies in the way.

And and they they're always challenging each other.

Like, what is the best way for us to be good to the earth and be good to the people who need us.

And they they constantly keep tripping over themselves and thinking, you know, that's not going to work, this isn't gonna work.

And the only thing they can think of to do that will be beneficial to the planet and the people in it, is to check into a motel room and kill themselves.

And, and and then and then they figure out maybe that wasn't such a good idea.

So we have these three shows and we're about to take those out, and those are kind of a moderate size where we same thing we shot the full first season of all three shows and then we have a bunch.

We're working with a bunch of different writers, different playwrights, different directors building out seasons of television.

And now that this is starting to get out, that we're doing this, we're starting to see something really interesting happen, which is like, people like Netflix, people like HBO are saying, well, shit, if you don't make us risk to too much on this and you are excited to own some of the other territories, let's all go in on this thing together, put it out there and see if it works, and we can chase success.

So we're hoping we can fill back up that interesting middle again, not by going to them and saying, fuck you guys, you better pay us the $5 million an episode to make this.

You should.

That's not going to work it.

Make it an easy yes for them.

Bring them into it.

And hopefully we can all build an ecosystem together.

That's sustainable.

Yeah.

All right.

I've asked a lot of questions.

I want to turn the mic to the icy hands immediately.

I didn't even say I'm ready for questions.

Just start going.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, I guess I don't see Mike, so I'm just going to.

Let's start right here.

The name of Penelope.

Why did you choose the name?

Great question.

She asked about the name Penelope.

Why don't you choose the name?

You know, I'm really glad you asked that because I don't have a good answer for it.

It came to me, and I trusted it, and I believe in it.

And I've been talking about this a lot with my creative peers.

And Mel and I talk about this a lot.

When I came out of the independent film world and made my first studio movie, where I had to have a good answer, intellectually good elocution answer for every choice I made, it almost killed me.

And it and it made me fall out of love with my project, because I had to take something out of the gut and spiritual realm and intellectualize it in order for them to say it was okay and with a process like this where it's just us and we're going, you actually don't have to do that.

When Mel turns to me and says, like, there's going to be a woman singing, for the score of this, I don't have to say, explain to me why historically that could actually work in this thing.

I just got to hear it and feel it and say, yes, let's go.

And the name Penelope felt right.

And so we just said yes.

And sometimes those things reveal themselves to you much later, painters get to do this stuff, you know?

But you don't get to do this inside of the studio system because everything has to be an intellectual argument.

Fight to the death.

So, I don't know, I might be able to tell you in a couple of years.

Also, I think it's up to us.

I mean, I had an immediate reaction.

I mean, I saw the movie Penelope.

It's sort of fantastical, and brave and courageous.

And there's a whimsy to that name.

Right?

So it's part of it is also just what is our reaction to this and how do we form a relationship through that?

I saw yes.

You with the two, the fingers.

Yes, I know the most brilliant Canadian tuxedo.

Thank you.

Can you guys approach or talk about your approach to dialog is very eloquent.

How you use dialog in this film is approach like like how you like to approach it and like your right style with dialog.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I Mark and I do so much, have done so much improv in mainly in indie film, but I think you always kind of bring a level as an actor of improv to the table.

But I think when we do, you know, Penelope was fully scripted and we, you know, because we had time, we reworked and reworked the dialog, but we still always come to the table with that, that, belief in leaving space on the edges for the actors.

And the minute Megan got attached, her and I were zooming pretty regularly and talking through the scripts, and sometimes I would just listen to her talk and I would take down notes and, change kind of what Mark and I had done on first passes.

And then even when Austin got on board again, it was just kind of talking and allowing them to fill in the edges and fill in the space and, and then if something came up on set, you know, allowing it and I think that's where some of the best, you know, lightning in a bottle jams come from.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that, you know, comedic improv is something that people generally understand where it's like they say, okay, we're in a comedy, we'll shoot the script, then we'll improvise and look for extra jokes that may be additive, the kind of improvization you're doing.

And something like this we call dramatic improv, which is really finding ways to re say the lines or cut the line in half.

If you're feeling so connected to it that your eyes might be able to actually tell you the second half of the line without using your mouth, we'll say things like, say this to us, try it with your mouth first and try it with your face second.

And maybe you don't need your mouth for this one, you know?

So I think that allowing your actors to bring their own ways of doing things, but still staying true to the spirit of lines is really important.

You know, we're not playwrights who are like, you got to say these words as music to that.

We we don't really believe that we like the actors to bring stuff.

Yeah, we can always do a take that's like, say it, say it with less words.

Yeah.

Version.

And we always use that one.

I'm trying to be fair.

All right.

Let's.

Yeah.

It's back.

There you go.

Hi.

Oh.

You got a mic?

Yeah.

Special.

First, I mean, beautiful, beautiful pilot.

I mean, I like that you were connecting with something so subtle and so truthful.

So props to you for bringing it out into the world.

And I think this is not only an innovation for the market before this type of filmmaking, you know, and that's really beautiful and really important.

So my question is, Mark, you said that Nell treats her crews really well.

Her crews love her.

So now I'm curious, why do your crews love you?

And how do you make that happen on a low budget?

Thank you.

I feed them really well.

That is the number one thing is feed them.

I mean, I have been known to be caught at the craft service table organizing it so the food looks better because it irks me when, like, they throw chip bags on and they call that feeding the crew.

So it is.

I take it very seriously.

That line item does not get cut, even on the low budget stuff.

But honestly, also, like I always think about the questions I would ask, like we're going on the, you know, we're going on our way.

Here are all the things I would ask about my way to live while I'm making this film.

And just think ahead for human needs.

Honestly, I think it's producers get so wrapped up in just like the bottom line and getting it made.

Getting it made.

And I always go in first with like, the human needs.

And then if we need to make changes to the creative for that, I think that's something a lot of people aren't willing to do, and you kind of have to I think one thing, a couple of things I also noticed Mel does really well as a director in particular are, providing a lot of creative autonomy.

There's a lot of humility in how she directs, does a lot of go to the department head and they'll ask, Mel, how are you seeing this?

Sometimes as a director, we often feel if we don't have very clear and concise answers, we're going to look like idiots.

And I think that, humility and the ability to say, I'm not actually sure yet, I haven't thought that deeply about it.

What do you think?

What would you bring to this?

And it brings out the best in those people.

And then I think one thing that we didn't necessarily design it this way, but because we've been making projects for a long time and we make them cheaply enough so that that mostly do go into profit, our points actually pay out to people.

So anybody who works on our set, they're getting some sort of back end share of the situation, and they feel like they're a part of it, and they keep coming back.

Because, you know, some of these early movies, crazy, like our sound recordist, will walk away with a $50,000 check after we sell the movie.

You know, it's not so good anymore.

The industry is not as good as it once, you know, but that's also a part of why they continue to follow Mel's, because she, you know, she has been able to pay out.

Well, I also think what you said earlier, Mark, which was like, look, turned out like grab blow.

I think that's always been the way we were.

Like, it's now it's no fun getting to a height alone.

So that's a really good point.

Bring everybody with you.

We do a lot of promoting people to their first time as department head, and taking a risk on them.

And we find that rather than try and get that like 68 year old grumpy male DP whose credits you love, who's pissed off at you the whole time because they're mad you convinced them to come do this indie.

Why don't you hire that other DP who's so grateful to have this?

They will kill themselves for you and they'll follow you to the end of the earth.

So that's not only selfless giving them the gate.

It's selfish for us.

We're getting better work, you know?

So two more quick questions.

Let's start again.

Yes.

This was so beautiful.

Inspired.

Thank you.

And our team is sitting here being like, how can we do this ourselves?

Now we've done for six episodes, half hour, 20 minutes.

Yes.

Other pieces of advice would you like time?

Yeah.

The question is what is the advice on how do you make independent TV swing the sword that is in your hand?

If you remember anything from this thing, what is the sword that is in your hand and swing it?

For a time that was only a $3 movie in my kitchen that could go to Sundance, I truly believe.

Yes, we're speaking at this wonderfully privileged place of I've got my actor money that helps to fund these things.

So we certainly have an access to all kinds of stories that a lot of people in this room just don't have access to.

But I really believe this.

If we didn't have that, we'd be out there finding the story that makes sense to make for $5,000 for six episodes.

You know, during the pandemic, we made a zoom film, Myself and Natalie Morales, because there was a physical limitation, and we shot it in four days.

And it and it worked and it came out really good.

So don't be afraid of things like mockumentary.

Don't be afraid of video diary, don't be afraid of found footage.

They all have bad reputations.

There's nothing wrong with the form.

They've just been misused and they've kind of gotten schlocky.

But you make a great version of that.

You can still make something with 3 to 4 people that can really stand out, but I think you should be focusing on making that that whole season, you know, and we're going to do our part and a lot of our peers to make sure that these festivals, like Serious Fest and others are going to turn from not just launching pads, but to markets where you can sell those things and do the next one, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I think if you have, like if you have $100,000, try and spread that out over like six episodes and amortize as opposed to putting it all into a pilot.

Yes.

You're going to make more money in the long run, and you're going to actually have like property.

Now that where you have, it's more than one basket you're putting an egg in.

And then this is, you know, it sounds crazy, but like independent film and independent TV is a world of scarcity.

That's our entire mindset here, right?

Try to find a way to fabricate the sense of abundance for yourself, and the way that you do that is not to make the $500,000 show for $100,000, make the $50,000 show for $100,000.

Like I made this movie Blue Jay.

That's just ten scenes with me and Sarah Paulson, and we made that for twice the budget.

We should have made it for, which was still very, very low, but we felt like we were in the lap of luxury.

We were shooting two scenes a day and we were like, we got all this time.

We're getting seven takes.

Said seven and a half days.

Yeah, and you can do that.

You have to, but you have to fabricate it for yourself to be very conscious about it.

Oh, it's all location to.

Yeah.

That's that is the key.

Yeah.

Final question.

Right.

So I've been a fan and safety not guaranteed.

I love that movie.

Thanks.

And, I am just I'm so appreciative of this perspective.

Created.

We have a pilot in the in the series this year and created it two years ago.

Initially went out with it.

Very tepid response.

And I have been there.

Yes.

And been over, the past year going, do we fund this thing that we try and just do it ourself?

It doesn't exist.

So it's it's so fantastic to hear that that is starting to become a thing.

So let me talk to you just real quickly, you know, and I know I'm a little pontificating and preachy up here, but I feel very passionate about this, so I'm just going to lean into it for a second.

This is a question of value versus value, okay.

The value of what we're taught here, which is if you make something and it doesn't make its money back, you're a failure and it didn't make its value.

I don't believe in that anymore.

I know it's, you know, a tricky thing, but the value of you making a show of it's important to you, even if you get it out there to, for people to see, even if it doesn't get as far as you thought it would, you would just play some festivals and it doesn't get bought right away, but it finds you someone who is a new collaborator for you and that person might even be able to help you get some financing for the next project you make.

The keeping going of that, has its own value.

And then, weirdly, we can click back into that old North American capitalist value system.

Because if you stay here, you keep fighting, you keep making things.

Sometime in the next five, ten, 15, 20, 30 years, you're going to make something that explodes, that has the actual capitalist North American value.

Right.

And then when that happens and your baby reindeer on Netflix at that time, everything you have made before that is going to posthumously rise in value.

And that's your catalog of stuff.

And so that won't have been in vain.

And you can be able to sell that stuff to the Criterion Channel and that will monetize itself.

So don't forget if it doesn't happen for you right away, this is part of your catalog and you keep going.

And it's not just one bite at the apple.

And that is something that's really critical to remember as you, you know, because we forget we get harder on ourselves if we don't turn profits on things is a long game.

It's a marathon.

Yeah.

Well thank you.

Yeah.

Thank.

Thank you Mel and Mark this is a lovely conversation.

Thank you.

And thank you all for joining us today at Series Fest.

I hope you have a great rest of your day.

Thank you guys.

Thank you.