NICK SCHIFRIN: Finally from us, "Settle# In" with author Malcolm Gladwell,## who says he doesn't trust people# who don't change their minds.

He recently sat down with Amna Nawaz# for our new video podcast to discuss## that and revisit his first book,# "The Tipping Point," 25 years later.

AMNA NAWAZ: I wanted to ask you about# this, because this has really stood## out to me about you and the way# you talk about your work and the## way you are willing to revisit your own# work and to say, I got something wrong.

And the crime example, as you have# mentioned, I know you wrote about## in "The Tipping Point" that the broken# windows policing policies in New York,## where the idea that little crimes could# be tipping point for big crimes.

And we## know over time now years later how that# led to very harmful policing policies,## like stop and frisk and disproportionately# targeting Black and brown people.

And you have come out since then and said,# we were wrong.

And I was part of that,## and I'm sorry.

And it was so striking to me# to have someone with your kind of platform and## voice say something like that so definitively.# So I wondered if you would tell me a little bit## about what Fed that decision and how hard# that was to come out and say, I was wrong.

MALCOLM GLADWELL, Author, "Revenge of the# Tipping Point": Well, it wasn't hard at all?

AMNA NAWAZ: No?

MALCOLM GLADWELL.. (LAUGHTER) MALCOLM GLADWELL.. she's -- I so consistently# change my mind on things,## that she's sometimes looks at me and she's# like -- because I will express an opinion.

And she will be like, well, you could change your# mind tomorrow.

And I will go, yes, actually... AMNA NAWAZ: I might?

MALCOLM GLADWELL: I might.

AMNA NAWAZ: I probably will.

MALCOLM GLADWELL: Or I will go to#.. I thought you hated that restaurant?

I'm# like, yes, I did.

But I changed my mind.

(LAUGHTER) MALCOLM GLADWELL: Or I remem.. guy named Martin.

And I was -- I had a --# I had a laptop made by Hewlett Packard.

And he was like, why do you have a Hewlett# Packard laptop?

And I went on and on and## on and on and on and on and on and on and on# and on and on about how, I will not join the## Apple universe.

That is -- and I gave all# these 17 reasons why it was a bad thing.

And then, like a week later,# he comes by and I'm working## on an Apple laptop.

And he's like,# what -- I said, I changed my mind.

I always change my mind.

I think it's# fine.

I don't trust people who don't.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes, but to be fair, changing# your mind on like what restaurant you like## or what laptop you use, that's different# than something you researched and reported## and put into a book and then said, you# know what, actually, years later... MALCOLM GLADWELL: Something I# researched and reported 25 years ago.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

MALCOLM GLADWELL.. did you believe 25 years ago that# you still believe today?

Like... AMNA NAWAZ: Oh, yes, I'm not saying things don't# change.

I'm saying for someone who published a## book around one of these ideas to then have the# courage and honesty to come out and say that,## it feels like we live in a time where# people aren't willing to do that.

People will defend, defend,# defend, deny, deny, deny.

Like tell you you're not seeing#something you're actually seeing.

And you said,## you know what?

I actually got# it wrong.

That's not the norm.

MALCOLM GLADWELL: Is it?

I mean, maybe# it's not the norm in public life,## but I feel like ordinary people# change their mind all the time.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

MALCOLM GLADWELL: And I fe.. the prism of being a parent now.# Parents, you always -- the whole## lesson of being a parent is that you are# required to constantly change your mind.

Your kids force you to change your mind nonstop.# It's all they do, right?

You say it's time to## go to bed.

And they say, no, it's not.

And you# know what happens?

You're wrong.

They're fine.

(LAUGHTER) MALCOLM GLADWELL: They don't# go to bed.

So then you learn,## oh, maybe my idea that they have to be in bed by# 6:45 is a mistake.

And then you change your mind.

And then you -- it's all this# kind of like -- you're constantly## gathering -- you have a view about# -- I have two children.

You have a## view about one of them based on# your experience with the other.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

MALCOLM GLADWELL.. with this -- with the second one.

They won't# say it.

And so you -- like, it's just -- it's## just one -- so I feel like, for ordinary people, I# guess there's no ego involved in that as a parent.

AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

MALCOLM GLADWELL: So you.. sense there has been this very weird thing# that's been -- maybe it's true that this## is recent in public life, where people# are scared about changing their mind.

And I don't really understand it, because# I don't trust people who don't change their## mind.

If you don't -- the only way I# would ever give any expert the benefit## of my trust is if I observe them gather new# evidence and alter their preconceived notion.

AMNA NAWAZ: Why do you think people are# scared?

Do you think they're scared of## the reaction or scared it makes them look weak?

MALCOLM GLADWELL: Well, I'm the wrong guy## to ask because I don't -- I have no.. With crime, I mean, the broader thing with crime,# the reason I feel so free to change my mind is## that we have been living in the last 25 years# in the golden age of criminology, where we have## discovered things about crime and we have revised# our understanding in incredibly fascinating ways.

The whole field -- like, I talked about -- in# one of my other books, I talked about a guy named## David Weisburd, who was part of a movement,# what's called hot spot policing.

And it's## this observation that the crime in any given# city, there's a handful of city blocks that## year after year are responsible for# an overwhelming majority of crime.

Crime is not dispersed throughout# an area.

It's concentrated.

And you## can identify those concentrated places and# you can crack down on those places and you## can drive an enormous crime -- this is# something we did not know 25 years ago.

I mean, it's -- that and a number# of -- a whole series of other things## are things that we have discovered by very# careful, brilliant work by really, really,## really smart people.

So, to be interested in# crime is of necessity to have to change your mind.

NICK SCHIFRIN: For the full# conversation and more episodes,## check out our video podcast "Settle In" on# YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.