AMNA NAWAZ: As we mark Presidents' Day,## our podcast "Settle In" asks a simple# question: What would Abraham Lincoln do?

A Substack by historian Matthew Pinsker uses## that question as a framework# to explore modern politics.

He spoke recently with Geoff Bennett about that# and his new book, "Boss Lincoln: The Partisan## Life of Abraham Lincoln," which examines# how Lincoln still shapes our country today.

GEOFF BENNETT: If he were watching politics# today, what do you think would surprise him## most about our political parties, and what# do you think wouldn't surprise him at all?

MATTHEW PINSKER, Author, "Boss Lincoln: The# Partisan Life of Abraham Lincoln": I don't know if## he would be surprised, but I .. depressed that people seem to# be losing faith in democracy.

After 250 years, after just -- after# recovering from the trauma of the Civil War,## I think he would expect people to# have more faith in their creed.## That's part of the reason why I think, in my# Substack, I focus on, what would Lincoln do?

In my classroom, in my public speeches,# in the book, in everything I'm doing,## I'm trying to remind people the reason why Lincoln# called this the last best hope of Earth.

Democracy## is not the Greek word for perfect, OK, but it# might as well be the Greek word for disagreement.

And people should not be# demoralized by disagreements,## even ones that have high stakes, even# ones that feel angry.

People in America## have always been angry.

And that doesn't# have to mean the end of the republic.

And## if everyone would just kind of remember# that, we would all be in a better place.

GEOFF BENNETT: That's good advice.

The idea... MATTHEW PINSKER: That's straight .. GEOFF BENNETT: Yes.

Well, that was my next# question.

.. what would Lincoln do, what's the framework# you use to determine what in fact he would do?

MATTHEW PINSKER: Well, when he became president,# of course, seven states seceded from the Union,## in opposition, in protest against his# election as an anti-slavery president.## So these are seven states in the Deep South that# have slavery, and they put slavery above country.

But there are 15 slave states in the union# in 1861, and Lincoln uses his inaugural to## speak to the eight that are still within the# union.

The majority of slave states are still## there.

And he tells them, essentially, he# says, secession is the essence of anarchy.

And then, in the next sentence, he# basically defines union.

He says,## a majority held in restraint by constitutional# checks and limitations is the only true sovereign## of a free people.

Anything else,# you fly to anarchy or despotism.

And so what he's telling people is that# the union that he's trying to save,## it's not the compact of states, like the# Confederates are saying.

And it's not just## the platitude for we the people.

It's the union# between the winners and losers in the election.## And he's trying to reassure those eight slave# states that, even though he's anti-slavery,## he will respect the constitutional limitations# that protect their rights as slaveholders.

And it wasn't enough to win over those eight# states, but it split them.

Four stayed within## the union and four joined the Confederacy.

If he# had lost all eight, the Confederacy would have won## that war.

And so it was a great accomplishment,# even though it wasn't enough to prevent bloodshed.

GEOFF BENNETT: Yes.

As you said, your Substack invites thes.. would he look upon January 6, as an insurrection,# a political failure, or something else?

MATTHEW PINSKER: I mean, there's# no doubt that he would have looked## on it as an insurrection because# he dealt with it in his own time.

They didn't have the count for# the electoral vote on January 6.## Their count was on February 13.

The# inaugural was in March.

And Lincoln## wrote letters to subordinates warning# them that it was a dangerous moment,## that the forces for secession might try to# disrupt the count.

And he was planning for it.

He also worried about the possibility of# disruption during the inaugural.

He understood## how grave those kind of disruptions# could be.

He took nothing for granted.

But when I show my students the# picture of the man from Delaware## who was carrying the Confederate Flag# through the Capitol on January 6,## I ask them what they think Lincoln would see,# what they see.

And I get a variety of answers.

But I end that discussion by saying, what Lincoln# would see is Americans.

Even though he thought## they would be misguided, even though he clearly# would have thought January 6 was an insurrection,## or an attempted insurrection, he would still think# of them with malice toward none, and try to find## a way to reconnect, to persuade, to re-bind# that union that was shattered on January 6.

And I know people have tried, and# yet we still need to keep trying,## because that bond is still frayed.

GEOFF BENNETT: The symbolic weight of that# man with the Confederate Flag in the Capitol,## given that that was the very# thing that Lincoln fought against,## he tried to guard against, you think# he would see that man as an American?

MATTHEW PINSKER: I do, absolutely.

Look, he was the one who offered# amnesty to the Confederates.

Now,## the difference between his amnesty and# Trump's pardon of the January 6 rioters## is that Lincoln made it conditional.

This is# boss Lincoln at his best.

They not only had to## pledge future loyalty to the Constitution.# They also had to pledge loyalty to all the## anti-slavery proclamations and statutes# that had been adopted during the war.

He understood that he had to leverage his# offer of forgiveness for their recognition## that slavery was dead.

And that's how# amnesty proceeded during the Civil War.## That's why he was able to say with# malice toward none, we can provide## charity for all if you acknowledge# the wrongheadedness of your views.

And that's not easy for people.

Kevin Seefried was# the name of the man who carried that Confederate## Flag on January 6.

When he was sentenced, he# expressed remorse.

He brought with him his son,## who was the age of my students, on# that day.

He also expressed remorse.

Now that they have been pardoned, I hope they# still feel that remorse.

But I'm not sure they do,## because the pardon that President# Trump offered was just a blanket,## sweeping pardon.

He calls them victims.

Now, I don't think Lincoln would see them as# victims, but he would still see them as Americans.

AMNA NAWAZ: And you can find that# full episode of "Settle In" and## more on our PBS News YouTube page# or wherever you get your podcasts.