>>Good morning and welcome to Global Perspectives.

I'm David Dumke.

Today we are joined by Shafik Gaber.

He is a very prominent Egyptian businessman.

He has been the head of a number of organizations, is involved in the World Economic Forum.

He was one of the founders and then the president of the American Chamber of Commerce in Egypt, the founder of Egypt's International Economic Forum.

The head of the Mohammed Shafik Gaber Foundation.

And he's doing a number of programs that we want to talk today about educating both Americans and Egyptians about each other and the importance of dialog.

Welcome to the show,Shafik.

>>Thank you, David.

Thank you very much for having me.

>>So you have a prominent business career, but so much of your career is also dictated on the relationships you have built over the years and your work in recent in the past two decades especially has - tell us about it.

It's focused more on foundation work.

>>Well, there's a story behind this David.

I mean, I unfortunately got accepted at Wharton.

I couldn't afford it.

And therefore, I ended up staying in Egypt at the time.

Years later, I came as an aspiring entrepreneur to come to the United States looking for a contractor to work on a project in Egypt.

And I spent seven days in New York and I had no interest at all for anybody to come along.

So I had a choice either go back to Egypt empty handed or to go to the subcontract.

I crisscrossed America.

I went from Appleton, Wisconsin, to Rensselaer, Indiana, to Monticello, Arkansas, to Des Moines, Iowa.

And I met the subcontractors.

And we work together and we bid in Egypt, and we won.

But more importantly, I got to learn about America.

More importantly, I got to know Americans at their home, at their office, with their family.

And I found a lot of similarity in values and traditions.

And that gave me the insight that Egypt and the US can have a lot of mutual benefit, but they need to know each other much better, not only just on the political level, but on the human level, on the cultural level, on the art level.

And therefore, I started my foundation.

And it's been doing, thank God, very well.

We have 142 fellows now.

Half Americans half Egyptians.

And those Americans and Egyptians have never been to each other's countries.

And prior to doing the exchange, the perception is quite negative, especially after 9/11 and 2011, where in Egypt we had the so-called Arab Spring, which was not an Arab Spring.

It was very much a winter spring.

So that is something I dedicate myself to because I believe in the world we live in with technology, it is so important to have human interaction.

>>You've obviously witnessed a lot of foreign businessmen come to Egypt and they.

What is the common mistake they make when they go to Egypt?

>>They come to Egypt and they think they're going to be working just like in the United States, which I've learned having operated in a number of countries around the world, that the first thing you do is get to know the country way before you start even doing any business.

I remember an experience going to Czechoslovakia back in 1990.

I went 11 times just to understand the system, get to know the people, the culture, what are the taboos and what are the positives?

Before I started doing business and I was quite successful and it's a pattern which I very much encourage American business.

When you come to Egypt, get to know Egypt, get to get an Egyptian partner, and that will facilitate things in a very positive way.

>>Is there often a sense of rush so people want to get there and just kind of rush relationships and rush-- >>True.

Very true.

And not only that, and the world we live in today, people try and do everything digitally and everything virtually.

It's not very much the Egyptian way.

The Egyptian way is they want to sit with you.

They want to share tea and coffee.

They want to get to know you.

And then we want to talk business.

It's it's not the American way.

And you need to sort of bridge that gap.

>>We're talking about businessmen coming there.

But you've also, of course, worked on a lot of cultural programs as your fellowship program isn't in one box.

It's in every box, for example.

But on the cultural side, you've done a lot of work and you've also done a lot of work connecting people on the political side, too.

Do you see the same holds true with with all those different categories?

>>To a huge degree, I will never, ever forget what took place during the presidency of Jimmy Carter, when he played a crucial role of bringing President Sadat and Prime Minister Begin together after many attempts that failed.

And even during Camp David in 1978, there was a lot of tension President Sadat said, I cannot accept the occupation of Sinai and President and Prime Minister Begin said, I'm not going to let Sinai go.

I'm going to retire there.

And there was a deadlock and it almost broke.

Except something very interesting happened, and that is both of them broke discussions in negotiations for a day.

They caught each other walking in Camp David's Gardens and they forgot about politics.

Begin started speaking about his grandchildren.

And Sadat started speaking about his brother, who was shot down during the 1973 war.

They turned from being politicians to human beings, and that broke the ice for the first time for them to realize that they didn't want to have another Israeli or another Egyptian die in war.

And therefore, I always encourage members of Congress and politicians not just to have a choreographed visit where everything is sort of set up and, you know, you know exactly what you're going to say and what you're going to hear.

And it's just good for TV.

No, you need to know each other.

You need to break bread.

You need to talk to each other, even if you disagree.

But then that's where you can find common ground and common interest.

>>Now have you been able to see some of the transformation in terms of understanding?

>>Without question.

I have seen it very, very clearly with a number of people.

And I believe if you invest the time to know the other, you will find so many different alternative solutions to problems that you think are totally unsolvable.

>>So where are US-Egyptian relations today?

>>With the United States?

>>Yes.

>>Well, I mean, it's been up and down and-- >>Two - two levels.

Let me let me get.

>>Please.

>>One is the political level.

Obviously we've had there's been significant develops in Egypt over the last 15 years.

And as likewise, the United States.

And then there's also the personal level.

You know, does this ever affect relations that are not political at all?

>>So on the personal level, the relations have been very strong and that has not changed.

And there are also specific segments of the relationship that are strategically important for both the United States and Egypt.

So the military, the intelligence, the cooperation of counterterrorism, all of these areas are very, very strong areas that continue regardless of any political ramifications.

But at the same time, we witnessed in Egypt a time during President Obama where the Muslim Brotherhood were welcomed in Washington.

And unfortunately, not too many people know what the Muslim Brotherhood is is a true fascist terrorist organization.

History tells you that.

I mean, books written by Americans and American and European researchers will go into detail.

But people saw just one aspect of it.

Today, I personally believe just in the last few days, President Biden was in Egypt.

Speaker Nancy Pelosi was in Egypt.

A group of no less than 35 members of Congress were in Egypt, plus a number of senior people.

That is a sign of rebuilding and strengthening that relationship, not just on a bilateral basis, but on a multiple basis, a regional basis, where Egypt gets involved on issues pertaining to Israel and the Palestinians and an African side too.

The United States is not going to compete with China, which is building airports and ports in Africa, but in cooperation with Egypt and Israel, it can create a whole inter-African operation in the digital area and technology which is very much needed.

>>So along with that, you know, you're talking about what they can do, but you know, what are what are they not able to do for some reason?

There's been a lot of criticism, for example, of U.S. policies in the region of of looking at the region as it wants it to see it rather than how the region is.

And I don't mean that negatively or positively, but it's a different, different vision in many ways.

>>I think your question or comment is brilliant because when you are sitting in Washington and you see what you see, that is not necessarily the facts on the ground.

And that is why I say in the world today, where so much is happening and so fast and the concentration span is short.

You have to get to know the other.

You cannot just I'll give you an example.

There is no ambassador of the United States in Egypt for two years now.

How can that operate?

I mean, you have to be engaged 24/7 nowadays because the pace of change is very, very fast.

And therefore, I see a lot of avenues where the U.S. and Egypt can benefit, but they both have to invest in making it happen.

>>You're constantly engaging with with business and political leaders and common people in the United States.

But sometimes that's not always the case at the government level, especially when tension arises.

And when you don't talk, you don't understand that the other is doing exactly what you're just saying.

So Egypt's facing some economic challenges right now.

Do you get a sense you've also been in Washington recently.

Do you get a sense that United States understands what's Egypt's going through and why?

>>To an extent.

Egypt's going through what it's going through for a number of reasons.

Of course, the Ukraine war has had a very negative impact.

Egypt imports 60% of its wheat and grain from Ukraine, and that's been a relationship that's going on for a long time.

Food prices going up is not a good thing.

Egypt is a country of 107 million people, of which 9 million are refugees.

And there's not one camp in Egypt.

They're all integrated in the society.

A fact that no many no, not too many people in the United States know.

I was speaking to Chairman Meeks just maybe in May of this year, and he was saying, we have a problem with your human rights, Shafik.

And I said, we're not perfect.

And I take your point.

But at the same time, do realize that neither the United States nor other countries are perfect.

How many refugees are here in the U.S. on the borders?

I mean, there are many issues and we're dealing with it, but we're accepting 9 million people.

And Egypt is not a rich country.

So we have 9 billion people integrated in the society.

So there are many issues that with engagement, we can find areas and common interests and common mutual benefit.

But if we don't talk to each other as much as we should, we miss out on many different opportunities.

>>And it seems you can draw some false conclusions.

So for example, I was talking to some of the members of Congress who have recently been to Egypt, and they were legitimately surprised that Egyptians on the street didn't have wanted was not supportive of the US position in Ukraine, for example.

>>And >>Go ahead.

No, please.

You said that the Egyptians on the street are not supporting the US position.

>>In Ukraine and it was, it was more of, you know, they were and the question of course was, was how could you support, you know, Russian aggression in the area?

What then came out, of course, in the conversation is is 90% of the grain comes from the Ukrainian Russian area.

Exactly.

And that's definitely you know, it's playing right into inflation and some of that, some of the price.

>>But there's another aspect, too, which I want to point out.

Egypt has gone.

I have lived through two wars.

If you talk to an ordinary Egyptian on the street, he will tell you wars have to end.

We are in the year 2022.

We came out of pandemic and it's time to come together rather, to escalate conflict.

This war going on in Ukraine and Russia.

The average Egyptian, although on official basis, Egypt supports the US position.

But the average Egyptian will say there's got to be a better deal out there.

Instead of Ukrainians losing their homes, infrastructure being destroyed, Russians losing their lives.

You're you're not going to come to any positive ending unless leaders sit together and negotiate.

We remember in Egypt very much Dr. Henry Kissinger, when he negotiated between Egypt and Israel very successfully.

There is no Henry Kissinger right now.

>>Understood.

I mean, Henry Kissinger, of course, is he's still still with us.

So he's actually still active in the debate, of course.

>>He wrote something in 2014 forecasting that this could happen and saying what needs to take place so that it doesn't happen.

But not not not too many people listen to that.

>>Well, it seems like there's a lot of reactions to things without the study.

And obviously, there's a complaint a lot of times that, you know, leaders tend to forget their own history when they're trying to react to everything going on.

Given that, I would just want to ask your take on where is Egypt going right now in terms of its policy?

Obviously, the US relationship has always been among the most important, but Egypt is a is a regional power and it's always got international, significant and global influence as well.

So I'd just like see your take and where Egypt is today compared to ten years ago when you had the Brotherhood.

>>Huge change, really a huge change internally and regionally.

Let me give you some examples.

Egypt is now investing in Africa, something that it did not do before.

We have just completed the body of the Tanzanian dam working with the country of Tanzania.

We are working with the Libyans to try and find a solution on the civil unrest that is existing right now in Libya.

We're working with the Sudanese.

I have to admit, sometimes I wonder how our team in the government is, you know, dividing its time because there are so many issues that exist in the Middle East.

We're working with the Saudis and the Qataris and the and the United Arab Emirates to find areas where we can also cooperate for the benefit of the region, which I believe the United States can play a critical role.

Because as we go forward and the world becomes more complicated, unless people feel that their lives are improving, it would be quite fearsome if we allowed more conflicts like what's happening in Ukraine.

That's on that side, on the internal side, I think the president is rebuilding Egypt very much in a manner which is very similar to what happened to the United States after World War Two.

You come to Egypt now and there are more highways, more bridges, new cities being built.

It's it's it's a major undertaking, not an easy one for a country like Egypt.

But he seems to be determined to go ahead with it, understanding that Egypt is a country bigger than France.

But we live literally in only 6% because we only live around the Nile.

And that is a focus of the president to a large degree.

>>Well, given given that you're building the bones of the economy, what's the significance of of COP 27 in your mind as as a businessman and as someone who is very well versed on Egyptian outlook economically and otherwise?

So what is the importance of COP 27 and what about sustainability in Egypt?

>>I will tell you something that many people don't know.

We have one of the largest solar power plants in the world in upper Egypt.

We have a major program to bring electric vehicles manufactured in Egypt.

Already, the president has provided a system of incentives for any investment that is green or sustainable to have a tax break.

I'm not seeing that this is going to happen overnight, but there is a huge positivity in the vision that that's where we want to go.

So we don't want to continue and be a part of the problem.

We want to be part of the solution.

And I think as you witnessed, you've been in COP 27 as you witnessed.

There is a huge amount of energy.

The big question is, will the big countries come together and make this happen?

Help us and others, or will this be another conference and we'll just wait for the next 20, what, 28?

And that's right.

>>Well, you know, again, the track record isn't great, but the dialog is is important.

And I think obviously that it's any taking place in Egypt seems like a relatively new concept in terms of Egypt's awareness of the importance of this issue in particular.

I want to turn back to your your fellow program and the art of the dialog and some of the other initiatives you're dealing with.

So first with the fellows, tell us what goes into that program.

You've explained the motivation.

But yeah.

>>The motivation is this at one point after 9/11 and 2011, I was shocked when I went to a small town in the heart of the United States, and I said, I'm Egyptian.

And the gentleman looked at me and said, Oh, desert sand, terrorism, Islamophobia.

So I was taken aback.

In Cairo, in a provincial city, I sit and talk about America, and a young person got up to me and said, Why are you so impassioned about America?

America?

They're all so so self-righteous.

They're obnoxious, and if they disagree with you, they're going to bomb you.

And I said, My God, the perception is really gone bad.

And I tried very hard to find ways and means to make this see the reality.

So I started this program, East-West The Art of Dialog, where we bring young Egyptians 24 to 35, young Americans 24 to 35 through a very tough, selective process.

The Americans should have never been to Egypt and the Egyptians should have never been to the United States.

And we bring them together in a very intensive program where they get to experience the good, the bad and the ugly on both sides.

They meet politicians, businessmen, technology startups, artists, activists, a whole in-depth program which totally transforms their perception.

And then after that, if they have any joint project that would serve both Egypt and the United States, the foundation will finance that.

So it's a program that's been going for ten years.

We celebrated ten years this year.

>>So tell me about some of the projects that have emerged from very interesting.

>>Egypt has a very high diabetic problem and an American young lady from California brought nurses that are trained to become trainers to Egyptian nurses on how to deal with diabetic patients.

Another amazing project was a gentleman from Washington who brought Little League Baseball to Egypt and then one Egyptian and one American.

As a matter of fact, the American is originally from Florida.

They write an op ed every month together, presenting both views the Egyptian view and the American View.

And we keep you know, there's one project after another.

Another gentleman has produced two movies.

He went into the movie business and he made a movie in Egypt and he made a movie in Brazil of other places.

But those programs are very exciting.

I have to say, I'm an extremely proud of these young fellows and what they have achieved.

And it's a continuing story.

We're bringing them all together next year in a reunion, 142 of them.

>>Oh, nice.

So explain the title of this, The Art of the Dialog.

You're a well known collector of Orientalist art.

So explain how you combine your passion for art with this very worthy program.

>>As a matter of fact, I'll be very honest with you, David, as I struggle to find a path to bring young Americans and young Egyptians together, it struck me that those American and European painters in their twenties, thirties and forties coming to the Middle East in the 1800s, not flying Pan Am, but basically going by ship or crossing the Atlantic and then going by land to the Middle East.

Going to Jerusalem.

Going to Alexandria.

Going to Algeria.

To Morocco.

These young painters came to that area painted and would take their canvases back to New York, London, Paris, Rome.

And that was an early way of getting to know each other.

There was no TV.

There was no other means of communication.

And I said, wait a minute, these people didn't sit in Paris and paint.

No, they went there.

And I decided if we're really going to have the ability to have a dialog, it's not going to be on the phone.

It's not going to be on Zoom.

It's not going to be in any other fashion except sitting across each other, being able to share food, share passion, share questions, and also put questions that maybe we don't agree on.

So the point is, how do we bring them together?

And that's what really prompted me to create the Art of Dialog, how to be able to listen and to be able to ask, to be able to learn.

>>Your art collection has traveled all over the United States and UK.

So tell me about about that experience.

>>It's an amazing experience because the art collection happened by accident.

I had no knowledge about art.

I was walking in the streets in France, one in Paris, as a matter of fact.

I saw a painting which immediately brought to me Egypt.

And I walked in to the gallery and he told me that painting is 150 years old.

And I said, 150 years old.

Wow it looks like it was painted last week.

And frankly, I studied for three years The Art of Orientalism.

What made American and European painters do that adventure of going into the Orient?

Spending time setting up their studios, learning the language.

So much is going on there.

I call them early globalists.

And there I started to study that art for three years.

Then I started collecting and I shared my collection with, you know, as you said, with people in the United States and in Europe and in Egypt.

And I'm very easy, passionate about the importance of knowing about the other.

And that's the only way you could do it back then.

>>So all this your your your life of engagement, if you will.

It started on a on a business gamble if you will, on a trip here.

>>True.

Very true.

>>So what are your some of your favorite places you've been on on this adventure you've had?

>>How much time do you have?

>>Well, unfortunately, only a couple of minutes.

>>But no, I have to say that I have learned a lot from the days that I hitchhiked across Europe with $148 in my pocket.

That was way back in 1968 till today, I find myself when I meet people like yourself and others, and I engage with them and I have the ability to communicate with them and learn from them.

To me, that is the most important thing and the world's a big place and there's so much that people can learn from each other.

And that is my passion.

And I just hope that we find ways and means of ending conflict and building more trust and building better relations because the world in the future, it's going to get more and more complicated.

>>So these investments in young people in particular, what more can governments or universities, what what what institutions should be engaging in this?

What is the engagement you're talking about with young people in particular?

What else can should be done to encourage this kind of engagement?

You know, I do.

>>I am surprised sometimes when I speak to CEOs of American companies or Egyptian companies that are dealing between Egypt and the United States.

And I say, why don't you select some of your young people to join the program?

And their answer is sometimes a little bit weird.

What is the benefit?

The benefit is incredible, but they don't have that sense.

You find companies in the United States that is selling into the Middle East, but its staff doesn't know the Middle East.

It sells with the concept of the United States.

>>Does it seem like something that just it would be like you're saying it would be nice, but it's not necessary.

Would you would you argue the reverse is true?

>>That question and I will tell you a little anecdote, to close.

I mean, when we applied for visas for the first class ten years ago, when they applied at the embassy, the embassy refused all the visas.

And the reason was they had never been to the states before.

So that's exactly the reason we're doing the program.

But I have to say, since then, the embassy in Egypt has been very supportive.

And they understand because they see these people, they sit with them and they're like ambassadors for the United States in Egypt and vice versa.

And we need more of that.

>>Well, you have been a long time ambassador for Egypt all over the West, including the United States.

It's always great to have you to talk to you.

>>Thank you very much, David.

Appreciate it.

>>And thank you for joining us.

We'll see you again next week on another episode of Global Perspectives.