>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU >> Nash: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS, A WATER MANAGEMENT EXPERT EXPLAINS THE UGLY SITUATION AT A NORTHERN NEW MEXICO DAM THAT'S IN BAD SHAPE.

AND CONCERN OVER THE STATE'S SUMMER WATER OUTLOOK.

>> Oglesby: IT'S ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE.

I DON'T THINK ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT OR ARE AWARE OF HOW BAD A WATER YEAR WE'RE FACING THIS YEAR.

>> Nash: PLUS, THE LATEST INSTALLMENT OF OUR INDIGENOUSLY POSITIVE SERIES UPLIFTS THE POWER OF POWWOWS.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

I'M YOUR HOST NASH JONES.

FROM THE ATOMIC BOMB TO RIVER WATER, POWWOWS TO PBS, WE HAVE LOT WE WANT TO GET TO YOU IN THE NEXT HOUR.

YOU MAY BE FAMILIAR WITH EL VADO DAM, HECK IT MIGHT BE IN YOUR OWN BACKYARD.

BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT IT'S FALLING APART?

WE'RE GOING TO LEARN ABOUT SORRY STATE ABOUT THIS KEY PIECE OF INFRASTRUCTURE FROM ADRIAN OGLESBY, THE DIRECTOR OF A LOCAL RESOURCE CENTER DEDICATED TO INFORMING THE PUBLIC ABOUT NEW MEXICO'S WATER.

ALSO, THE INDIGENOUSLY POSITIVE SERIES.

OUR COLLABORATION WITH NEW MEXICO IN DEPTH IS BACK.

THIS WEEK, THE TEAM TAKES A LOOK AT THE ROLE OF POWWOWS IN CELEBRATION AND RESISTANCE.

WE'LL ALSO LEARN ABOUT A LOCAL PROGRAM IN DOWNTOWN ALBUQUERQUE CREATING A SPACE FOR NATIVE PEOPLE TO SHARE THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPLORE THE DANCING, DRUMMING, AND SINGING THAT FILL THOSE GATHERINGS.

LATER, WE'LL DISCUSS A TRAVELING EXHIBIT ON THE NUCLEAR BOMB AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR IT TO BE HERE IN NEW MEXICO.

CORRESPONDENT MEGAN KAMERICK SPEAKS WITH THE JOURNALIST AND ARTIST BEHIND THE INSTALLATION AND A UNM PROFESSOR WHO WILL HELP BRING IT HERE ABOUT HOW THE WORK TELLS THE STORY ABOUT NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN A NEW WAY AND INVITES THE YOUNGER GENERATION INTO THE CONVERSATION.

BUT FIRST, WE WANT TO ADDRESS WHAT'S ON EVERYONE'S MIND AT OUR STATION AND FOR MANY PUBLIC MEDIA VIEWERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

LATE LAST WEEK, PRESIDENT TRUMP ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER INSTRUCTING THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING TO END FEDERAL FUNDING FOR PBS AND NPR.

WHILE IT'S NOT THE NORM TO FIND OURSELVES IN THE NEWS, WE'RE COMMITTED TO COVERING A NATIONAL STORY WITH LOCAL IMPLICATIONS ALL THE SAME.

SO, CORRESPONDENT GWYNETH DOLAND SAT DOWN WITH NEW MEXICO PBS GENERAL MANAGER AND FORMER CHAIR OF THE NONPROFIT AMERICA'S PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS, FRANZ JOACHIM, TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THINGS STAND AND WHAT THIS COULD MEAN FOR THE NETWORK AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gwyneth: FRANZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE WITH US TODAY.

>> Joachim: THANK YOU.

IT'S A PLEASURE.

>> Gwyneth: FIRST, I WANT TO LET VIEWERS KNOW THAT WHILE YOU ARE THE GENERAL MANAGER OF NEW MEXICO PBS, YOU HAVEN'T SEEN MY QUESTIONS.

YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY INPUT INTO THEM.

AND YOU WILL NOT HAVE A HAND IN EDITING THIS INTERVIEW.

IN FACT, BECAUSE WE WANT TO AVOID THE APPEARANCE OF A CONFLICT OF INTEREST, I'M THE ONE WHO IS DOING THIS INTERVIEW AS A CONTRIBUTOR, RATHER THAN ONE OF THE STAFFERS HERE.

>> Joachim: TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH ALL OF THAT.

>> Gwyneth: SO, ON MAY 1st PRESIDENT TRUMP ISSUED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER AIMED AT ENDING GOVERNMENT FUNDING FOR PBS AND NPR.

TOGETHER, NPR AND PBS GET ABOUT $535 MILLION PER YEAR FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

BUT THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF PBS STATIONS, AFFILIATES LIKE KNME, ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

HOW MUCH DOES THIS STATION GET FROM THAT PILE OF $535 MILLION?

>> Joachim: NEW MEXICO PBS GETS ABOUT $1.7 MILLION, MOST OF THAT, ABOUT 1.65 OR THEREABOUTS IS THROUGH A COMMUNITY SERVICE GRANT, WHICH IS A RENEWABLE GRANT THAT IS ISSUED TO PUBLIC RADIO AND PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS THAT PASS THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS EVERY YEAR.

THERE'S A COUPLE OF SMALLER GRANTS FOR SUPPORTING DISTANCE SERVICES LIKE REACHING OUT TO THE NAVAJO NATION AND SOME OF THE OTHER RURAL COMMUNITIES, BUT THE BULK OF IT IS THROUGH THE COMMUNITY SERVICE GRANT.

>> Gwyneth: WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THAT IS THE OVERALL BUDGET?

>> Joachim: THAT, RIGHT NOW, THIS YEAR IT'S ABOUT 18% OF OUR OPERATING BUDGET.

>> Gwyneth: ALL RIGHT.

TRUMP AND OTHERS HAVE MADE MANY CALLS TO DEFUND PUBLIC BROADCASTING OVER THE YEARS.

BUT, I ADMIT, THIS IS CONFUSING EVEN FOR ME.

ON THE ONE HAND, WE HEAR THAT FEDERAL DOLLARS ARE ONLY A TINY AMOUNT OF OVERALL FUNDING FOR PUBLIC TELEVISION AND PUBLIC RADIO.

THEN WE HEAR FROM STATIONS LIKE OURS WHERE IT'S 18% AND THAT CUTTING THOSE FUNDS WOULD DEVASTATE THIS STATION.

WHICH IS IT?

>> Joachim: THIS STATION, OR STATIONS OR THE SYSTEM?

IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE COMPLEX THAN THAT.

LOSING 18% OF ANY BUSINESS'S REVENUE IS GOING TO BE PRETTY HARD TO TAKE.

I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WOULD DEVASTATE US, BUT IT WOULD CERTAINLY MEAN A LOT OF CONTRACTION AND A LOT OF CHANGE AND LOT LESS SERVICE WE'RE ABLE TO PROVIDE.

THE REAL ISSUE IS THE SMALLER STATIONS IN MOST STATES, PARTICULARLY WESTERN AND RURAL STATES, WHERE THAT PERCENTAGE OF THEIR OPERATING BUDGET IS QUITE A BIT HIGHER.

IT'S AS HIGH AS 40% IN SOME CASES.

AND TELEVISIONS AND RADIO STATIONS, IT RUNS THE GAMUT, BUT I KNOW THERE'S STATIONS IN NEW MEXICO THAT ARE EXISTING ALMOST 100%, SAY 98%, ON THAT FEDERAL APPROPRIATION.

THESE ARE COMMUNITIES THAT DO NOT HAVE THE POPULATION OR THE DOLLARS IN THAT POPULATION TO SUPPORT PUBLIC MEDIA THROUGH JUST PHILANTHROPIC INDIVIDUAL GIVING.

THERE'S NOT AN OPPORTUNITY TO SELL UNDERWRITING SPACE, ADS IF YOU WILL, BECAUSE THERE'S JUST NOT ENOUGH POPULATION TO WARRANT THAT.

SO, PUBLIC MEDIA'S GOAL IS TO SERVE ALL OF THESE UNSERVED AND UNDERSERVED POPULATIONS AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS THROUGH SOME MEANS OF FUNDING BEYOND THE PHILANTHROPIC.

>> Gwyneth: BUT ALBUQUERQUE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE THE BIGGEST MARKET IN THE STATE.

WE'RE THE BIGGEST STATION.

>> Joachim: SURE.

>> Gwyneth: YOU KNOW, THIS FEDERAL FUNDING HAS BEEN CONTENTIOUS FOR DECADES.

WHY NOT JUST SAY GET RID OF IT AND, YOU KNOW, GO OUT FOR PHILANTHROPIC FUNDING, DOUBLE DOWN ON UNDERWRITING, KEEP HUSTLING FOR MONEY ON THE TV?

>> Joachim: WELL, NEW MEXICO PBS IS ONE OF THE MOST SUPPORTED PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS IN THE COUNTRY AS IT IS.

I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S A LOT OF HEADROOM TO GO BACK.

PER CAPITA, WE RECEIVE MORE DOLLARS FROM MEMBERS IN NEW MEXICO THAN JUST ABOUT ANY OTHER STATION IN THE COUNTRY.

SO, I'M NOT SURE WHERE ELSE WE'D GO.

PHILANTHROPIC THROUGH CORPORATE DONATIONS, THAT IS NICE WHEN IT'S WORKING WHEN THE ECONOMY IS GOOD AND THE MESSAGE FITS, BUT BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF PUBLIC TELEVISION AND THE RESTRICTIONS PLACED ON US IN TERMS OF WHAT IS CALLED ADVERTISING, WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO WHAT OTHER STATIONS, COMMERCIAL STATIONS, ARE ALLOWED TO DO.

WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO USE THE SAME LANGUAGE.

WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO USE THE SAME VISUALS.

WE'RE MUCH MORE RESTRICTED IN HOW WE DO IT.

THAT'S MUCH LESS OF AN INCENTIVE FOR ADVERTISERS TO USE US FOR ADVERTISING.

SO, INDEED, MOST OF THE CORPORATE DONATIONS WE GET ARE GENUINELY PHILANTHROPIC DONATIONS WHERE WE'RE REQUIRED BY LAW TO TELL EVERYBODY WE'RE RECEIVING THESE DONATIONS.

THE WAY WE DO THAT IS THROUGH THESE UNDERWRITING RESPONSIBILITIES.

IF YOU NOTICE THE LANGUAGE IS SOMETHING LIKE, BROUGHT TO YOU IN PART BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU AND BY THE WAY THIS COMPANY HAS BEEN SUPPORTING PUBLIC MEDIA HAVE 45 YEARS.

THEY'RE NOT SAYING COME ON DOWN AND BUY STUFF.

THEY'RE SAYING WE SUPPORT PUBLIC MEDIA.

IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT MESSAGE.

AND IT'S A PHILANTHROPIC MESSAGE.

BUT IT'S ALSO NOT A MESSAGE THAT'S GOING TO LEND TO LOT OF ADVERTISING DOLLARS.

>> Gwyneth: HELP ME UNDERSTAND.

THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING IS THIS THING THAT CONGRESS CREATED AND THE MONEY FLOWS THROUGH, BUT CAN YOU JUST TALK US THROUGH HOW THAT WORKS?

>> Joachim: CERTAINLY.

SO, THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING WAS CREATED BY AN ACT OF CONGRESS IN 1967 OUT OF THE 1967 PUBLIC BROADCASTING ACT.

AND THEY WERE CREATED AS A PRIVATE INDEPENDENT CORPORATION THAT WOULD RECEIVE FEDERAL APPROPRIATIONS FROM CONGRESS.

AND THEY WOULD DISTRIBUTE THOSE FUNDS TO PBS, PUBLIC TELEVISION AND PUBLIC RADIO STATIONS, AROUND THE COUNTRY.

THEY ALSO ACT AS A FIREWALL SO THAT CONGRESS AND THE WHITE HOUSE AND ANY OTHER ARM OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CANNOT INSERT THEMSELVES INTO THE PROCESS AND BASICALLY AFFECT THE FUNDING OR HOLD THE FUNDING BASED ON THINGS THAT PARTICULAR ADMINISTRATION OR THAT PARTICULAR CONGRESS FEELS MIGHT BE IMPORTANT IN THE MOMENT.

>> Gwyneth: AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT APPEARS TO BE HAPPENING NOW.

THE WHITE HOUSE SAID ON SOCIAL MEDIA THAT NPR AND PBS, QUOTE, RECEIVE MILLIONS FROM TAXPAYERS TO SPREAD RADICAL WOKE PROPAGANDA DISGUISED AS NEWS.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT WE'RE NOT SURE EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NOW BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME BARRIERS IN TRUMP'S WAY.

FIRST, LEGAL EXPERTS SAY THE PRESIDENT JUST DOESN'T HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO UNDO THE BUDGET THAT CONGRESS MADE.

SECOND, THE SUPREME COURT HAS RULED THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T MAKE FEDERAL FUNDING CONTINGENT ON STATION'S EDITORIAL DECISIONS.

BUT, IT'S STILL A VERY REAL THREAT AND A VERY REAL POSSIBILITY, I UNDERSTAND THAT.

THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING SUED TRUMP LAST WEEK OVER HIS MOVE TO FIRE THREE OF THE FIVE BOARD MEMBERS.

AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO ASSUME THAT THERE WILL BE LAWSUITS OVER THIS RECENT MOVE, BUT IT COULD STILL HAPPEN.

SO, WHAT ARE YOU DOING NOW TO PREPARE FOR THE POSSIBILITY OF THOSE CUTS?

>> Joachim: WELL, WE'RE LOOKING AT OUR OWN OPERATIONS AND SEEING WHERE, WHEN THE TIME COMES, WE MIGHT CUT.

IN OUR SPECIFIC CASE, WE HAVE SPENT YEARS BUILDING UP RESERVES SO WE HAVE A SAVINGS ACT, IF YOU WILL, THAT WILL BACKSTOP US.

WE HAVE SQUIRRELLED AWAY MONEY IN TERMS OF FOUNDATION ACCOUNTS AND TAKING PHILANTHROPIC GIFTS FROM DONORS AND PUT THEM INTO PLACES THAT, IN SOME CASES, THE DONOR SAYS I WANT IT USED FOR THIS SPECIFIC PURPOSE LIKE JOURNALISM OR ARTS PROGRAMMING AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

IN OTHER CASES, THEY'RE JUST SAYING WE WANT YOU TO SQUIRREL THIS MONEY AWAY AND KEEP IT FOR OPERATIONS.

AND WE'VE CREATED THESE INTEREST-BEARING ACCOUNTS THAT SPIN OFF INTEREST, BUT ARE NOT COMPLETELY TIED UP SO THAT WE CAN SPEND THE CAPITAL IF WE ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO.

SO, WE DO HAVE SOME SAVINGS IN PLACE TO KEEP US WHOLE FOR THE TIME BEING.

BUT IT'S REALLY, AGAIN, LESS ABOUT US AS AN INDIVIDUAL STATION AND MORE ABOUT THE NETWORK.

IT'S OKAY TO BE A PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION, BUT IF THERE'S NO PBS FEEDING US PROGRAMMING, IF YOU'RE NOT GETTING NATURE AND NOVA FROM PBS, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO CREATE BY OURSELVES.

SO, THE WHOLE SYSTEM STARTS TO BREAK DOWN WHEN ALL THE PIECES START TO DISAPPEAR.

SO, IF NEW MEXICO PBS SURVIVES, AND I EXPECT THAT WE WILL FOR A WHILE, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT OTHER STATIONS ARE GOING TO SURVIVE AND THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE BEHOLDEN TO PICKING UP THE SERVICES THAT THEY'RE NOW DROPPING AND FILLING IN THOSE GAPS AND SPENDING MORE OF OUR TIME AND MORE OF OUR MONEY ON MORE THINGS WITH LESS TO WORK FROM.

IT'S REALLY MORE ABOUT THE SYSTEM, HONESTLY, THAN IT IS ABOUT AN INDIVIDUAL STATION.

>> Gwyneth: WHAT WOULD BE SOME OF THE FIRST WAYS THAT VIEWERS WOULD NOTICE THESE CUTS IF THEY CAME INTO BEING?

>> Joachim: I THINK YOU COULD -- ON TWO LEVELS, YOU COULD SEE -- LOCAL PROGRAMMING START TO CHANGE.

YOU COULD SEE LOCAL PROGRAMMING DROP OFF.

THIS PROGRAM COULD BE AT RISK.

COLORES COULD BE AT RISK.

OTHER PROGRAMS THAT WE CREATE, DOCUMENTARIES WE PRODUCE, WOULD SLOW DOWN OR GO AWAY.

THAT IS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

AT THE NATIONAL LEVEL, YOU COULD SEE PROGRAMMING START TO DISAPPEAR.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS ACTUALLY BEING AFFECTED RIGHT NOW IS WHAT'S CALLED THE READY TO LEARN PROGRAM THAT CAME THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

$14 MILLION A FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WENT DIRECTLY TO PBS THROUGH THIS PROGRAM.

THAT MONEY HAS GONE AWAY.

THAT MEANS CHILDREN'S PROGRAMMING RIGHT NOW IS AT RISK BECAUSE DOLLARS HAVE DISAPPEARED.

SO, THE THING THAT WE'RE MOST KNOWN FOR, THE REASON WE CAME INTO BEING IN THE FIRST PLACE, CHILDREN'S PROGRAMMING IS STARTING TO DISAPPEAR.

WE WILL SEE LESS OF IT.

WE'LL SEE LESS NEW STUFF.

AND WE CERTAINLY WON'T SEE THE INNOVATION THAT PUBLIC TELEVISION IS FAMOUS FOR IN CHILDREN'S PROGRAMMING.

>> Gwyneth: I'VE NOTICED IN RECENT DAYS SOME CHANGES ON THE AIR.

I SAW PBS PRESIDENT PAULA KERGER UP THERE MAKING A PLEA.

I SAW A QR CODE POP UP JUST LAST NIGHT.

NPR AND PBS HAVE KIND OF TAKEN DIFFERENT APPROACHES IN RESPONDING TO TRUMP'S CUTS.

NPR IS ASKING FOR DONATIONS.

AND THEIR PLAY IS TO SOCK AWAY AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE, WHILE PBS IS ASKING VIEWERS TO CONTACT THEIR REPRESENTATIVES IN CONGRESS.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S A SMART APPROACH?

>> Joachim: I DO.

I THINK IT ACKNOWLEDGES THAT FEDERAL FUNDING IS ESSENTIAL AND IRREPLACEABLE.

AGAIN, IF YOU WANT TO ASSUME THAT JEFF BEZOS OR SOME LARGE DONOR IS GOING TO COME IN AND SAVE THE DAY, THEY MAY THIS YEAR.

THEY MAY NOT NEXT YEAR.

THEY PROBABLY WON'T THE YEAR AFTER.

AS SOON AS THE BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T SUPPORT IT, THAT MONEY GOES AWAY.

I DON'T THINK ANY ORGANIZATION LIKE WE ARE IS GOING TO EXIST PURELY ON PHILANTHROPIC DOLLARS.

IT'S NOT GOING TO GET US THROUGH THOSE TOUGH TIMES.

ANY INDIVIDUAL, ANYBODY, ANY SMART INVESTOR IS GOING TO LOOK AT A DIVERSIFIED FUNDING BASE.

THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK AT A DIVERSIFIED PORTFOLIO.

WE RECEIVE MONEY, THE VAST MAJORITY OF OUR OPERATING BUDGET COMES FROM INDIVIDUALS, VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

BUT WE ALSO GET MONEY FROM THE STATE OF NEW MEXICO.

WE ALSO GET THE FEDERAL DOLLARS.

WE ALSO GET SOME CORPORATE PHILANTHROPY AND WE ALSO DO SOME ENTREPRENEURIAL STUFF WHERE WE'RE PROVIDING SERVICES THAT WE CHARGE FOR.

SO, THERE'S A VERY DIVERSE FUNDING BASE AND THAT MAKES FOR A VERY HEALTHY ORGANIZATION.

YOU START TAKING AWAY THOSE PIECES, AND YOU START MAKING THE WHOLE SYSTEM MUCH MORE BRITTLE.

>> Gwyneth: FRANZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US ABOUT THESE PROPOSED CUTS.

>> Joachim: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, GWYNETH.

>> Niko: POWWOW IS A WAY OF RESISTANCE, RECLAIMING OUR CULTURE.

WHEN YOU'RE URBAN, YOU'RE DISCONNECTED.

AND WE'RE BOMBARDED CONSTANTLY WITH, OUR JOB, SCHOOL, HAVING TO STUDY.

OF COURSE, TECHNOLOGY.

>> Juanita: THEY NEEDED THIS FOR THESE YOUTH AND THESE YOUNG PEOPLE TO GIVE THEM THE SPACE WHERE THEY CAN COME AND LEARN THESE THINGS AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE EMBARRASSED.

THEY CAN JUST BE THEMSELVES AND BE HAPPY AND BE OPEN.

>> Nash: THE FOURTH EPISODE OF OUR INDIGENOUSLY POSITIVE SERIES IS COMING UP IN ABOUT 10 MINUTES.

AND THANKS TO GWYNETH DOLAND FOR THE INTERVIEW WITH OUR GENERAL MANAGER FRANZ JOACHIM.

WE KNOW IT'S BEEN RAINING AROUND THE STATE IN RECENT DAYS.

BUT THE SNOW-MELT THAT FLOWS INTO NEW MEXICO'S RIVERS WAS LOW THIS WINTER.

SO, WATER WATCHDOGS WHO LOOK AT THE BIGGER PICTURE ARE ALREADY CONCERNED THAT WE'RE HEADING FOR A HOT, DRY SUMMER.

BUT OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, WATER MANAGERS ALONG THE RIO GRANDE HAVE FACED AN ADDED LIMITATION.

THE DAM THAT CREATES THE EL VADO RESERVOIR ON THE RIO CHAMA TRIBUTARY HAS BEEN LEAKING.

HERE'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE RIGHT NOW.

YOU CAN SEE THE RESERVOIR ITSELF WAS DRAINED TO AVOID CATASTROPHIC FAILURE, BUT ENGINEERS CONTINUE TO FACE SOME EXTRAORDINARY CHALLENGES IN TRYING TO REPAIR AND REFILL IT.

WATER MANAGEMENT EXPERT AND DIRECTOR OF THE UTTON TRANSBOUNDARY RESOURCE CENTER, ADRIAN OGLESBY, TELLS CORRESPONDENT ELIZABETH MILLER THAT ENGINEERS HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THE PROBLEM FOR NEARLY A DECADE AND IT STILL WON'T BE FIXED ANY TIME SOON.

MILLER ALSO ASKED ABOUT THE WATER OUTLOOK FOR NEW MEXICO THIS SUMMER, WHICH ISN'T LOOKING GOOD EITHER.

>> Elizabeth: ADRIAN, HOW IS THIS SUMMER SHAPING UP FOR WATER IN NEW MEXICO?

>> Oglesby: IT'S TERRIBLE.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE.

I DON'T THINK ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT OR ARE AWARE OF HOW BAD A WATER YEAR WE'RE FACING THIS YEAR.

INFLOWS TO THE RIO GRANDE AT EL VADO ARE EXPECTED TO BE 33% OF THE LAST TEN YEARS, MEDIAN FLOW.

A LOT OF FOLKS ARE AWARE THAT WE ARE LOOKING AT DRAMATICALLY LESS WATER IN THE RIO GRANDE DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE OVER THE NEXT 50 YEARS, BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEING THIS YEAR IS WHAT WE WERE PROJECTING WAS GOING TO BE HAPPENING OUT DECADES FROM NOW.

>> Elizabeth: WOW, THAT IS INCREDIBLE.

>> Oglesby: IT'S TERRIFYING.

>> Elizabeth: ABSOLUTELY.

NEW MEXICO RELIES ON A COMPLICATED STRING OF RESERVOIRS TO STORE WATER FOR VARIOUS USES.

SOME OF THAT IS DEDICATED TO IRRIGATION, SO FARMS.

AND OTHERS HOLD WATER FOR CITIES.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ONE OF THOSE PIECES STOPS WORKING?

>> Oglesby: YEAH, SO, IT'S INTERESTING THAT ON THE RIO GRANDE MAIN STEM WE ONLY HAVE ONE DAM.

AND THAT'S COCHITI.

AND IT'S REALLY ONLY FOR FLOOD CONTROL AND RECREATION.

THE DAMS THAT WE USE TO STORE WATER FOR THE CITY, FOR THE FARMERS, FOR THE FISH, THOSE ARE ON THE CHAMA RIVER.

THE RIO CHAMA.

SO, WE'VE GOT, AT THE TOP, HERON WHERE WE STORE THE IMPORTED SAN JUAN-CHAMA WATER WE BRING OVER FROM THE SAN JUAN RIVER.

AND BELOW THAT, WE HAVE EL VADO, WHICH IS THE DAM THAT IS CURRENTLY BROKEN.

AND BELOW EL VADO WE HAVE ABIQUIU, WHERE WE STORE LOT OF THE CITY'S SAN JUAN-CHAMA WATER.

SO, WITH ONE OF THOSE PIECES TAKEN OUT OF THE MIX, IT'S PRETTY INCREDIBLE CHALLENGES, BUT IT'S ALSO MAKING US THINK CREATIVELY AS WELL.

IN TERMS OF HOW WE CAN USE THE OTHER RESERVOIRS.

>> Elizabeth: INTERESTING.

EL VADO, THE ONE THAT'S BROKEN, IS ONE OF FEWER THAN TEN STEEL-FACED DAMS THAT STILL EXIST IN THE WORLD.

>> Oglesby: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Elizabeth: WHEN IT WAS BUILT IN THE 1930s THEY USED PACKED EARTH COVERED WITH STEEL PLATES.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SIGNS THAT THE DAM IS STRUGGLING?

>> Oglesby: YEAH, SO WE'VE KNOWN FOR A WHILE THAT THE DAM HAS HAD ISSUES.

WHEN YOU PUT STEEL PLATES AND PUT THEM UNDER WATER, YOU KNOW, THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN.

ACTUALLY, MORE THINGS HAPPEN WHEN YOU TAKE THE WATER AWAY, OR MOVE IT BACK AND FORTH.

EARLY ON, A SMALL SPRING DEVELOPED ON THE DOWNSTREAM SIDE OF EL VADO, AFFECTIONALLY CALLED DEER SPRING.

IT WAS OBVIOUS THE DAM WAS LEAKING.

THE OTHER CLEAR SIGNS.

THE SPILLWAY THAT BRINGS WATER OVER THE TOP OF THE DAM IF IT OVERFLOWS, I REMEMBER WALKING DOWN THE SPILLWAY 10 OR 15 YEARS AGO AND YOU COULD HEAR THE HOLLOW ECHOING UNDERNEATH YOUR FEET FROM THE CAVITATION FROM THE SOIL THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE HOLDING IT UP.

>> Elizabeth: OH, MY, THAT'S QUITE DRAMATIC.

>> Oglesby: YEAH, IT IS A LITTLE SCARY.

>> Elizabeth: RIGHT.

I THINK ENGINEERS STARTED GOING IN AND ASSESSING THE STATUS OF THE DAM AND SOMEWHERE AROUND 2007 THEY REALIZED THERE WITH WAS SOME PROBLEMS.

>> Oglesby: I THINK THAT'S ABOUT RIGHT.

WE REALLY STARTED GETTING SERIOUS ABOUT IS AROUND 2014-2015.

AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE HAD WAS THAT EL VADO DOES NOT HAVE A LARGE POPULATION BELOW IT.

SO, GETTING IT PRIORITIZED AS A DAM FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO COME AND INVEST IN REPAIRS WAS DIFFICULT BECAUSE THEY PRIORITIZE DAMS THAT WENT THEY FAIL THEY'RE GOING TO KILL A LOT OF PEOPLE OR FLOOD OUT LOT OF PEOPLE.

>> Elizabeth: RIGHT.

RIGHT.

>> Oglesby: WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE THE NUMBERS TO JUSTIFY BRINGS THE FEDS IN.

SO, THE DELEGATION WAS GREAT AND WORKED WITH THE CONSERVANCY DISTRICT AND GOT IT BUMPED UP ON THE PRIORITIES LIST.

>> Elizabeth: THAT WOULD BE LIKE THE NEW MEXICO DELEGATION TO CONGRESS AND THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE CONSERVANCY DISTRICT.

>> Oglesby: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Elizabeth: THEY WORKED TOGETHER TO GET THIS DAM PRIORITIZED.

>> Oglesby: YOU GOT IT.

>> Elizabeth: SO, FOR FOLKS WHO DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY OF DAMS FOR A LIVING, CAN WE PUT SOME CONTEXT AROUND THAT TIME FRAME?

TEN YEARS AGO, TO HAVE FIGURED OUT THERE'S A PROBLEM, IS A WHILE.

>> Oglesby: IT'S A WHILE, YEAH.

THIS DAM WAS BUILT DURING THE DEPRESSION.

1933-35.

WE FILLED IT UP IN '36.

PART OF THE RATIONALE TO USE THE STEEL PLATES WAS TO BOOST THE STEEL INDUSTRY DURING THE DEPRESSION.

THE DAM HAD TO HAVE SOME REHABILITATION WORK DONE IN THE '50s.

THE BUREAU OF RECLAMATION CAME IN, DURING THAT TERRIBLE DROUGHT, AND HELPED DO SOME REPAIRS ON THE DAM.

YOU KNOW, FOR A DAM THAT'S CLOSE TO 100 YEARS OLD, IT'S DONE A PRETTY IMPRESSIVE JOB OVER THE YEARS.

BUT EL VADO IS REALLY INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO US BECAUSE IT'S KIND OF LIKE THE SWISS ARMY KNIFE OF RESERVOIRS.

WE WERE ABLE TO DO A LITTLE BIT MORE WITH IT.

WE WERE ABLE TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE FLEXIBLE WITH IT THAN WITH OTHER DAMS.

SO, HERON UPSTREAM, SAN JUAN-CHAMA WATER, ABIQUIU DOWNSTREAM FLOOD CONTROL, SAN JUAN-CHAMA WATER.

BUT AT EL VADO WE WERE STORING FOR ALL THE FARMERS IN THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE.

WE STORE THE PRIOR AND PARAMOUNT, THE SENIOR WATER RIGHTS, FOR THE SIX PUEBLOS DOWN HERE.

THERE IS HYDROPOWER.

EIGHT MEGAWATTS IS GENERATED OUT OF THAT DAM AND IS OWNED BY LOS ALAMOS COUNTY.

WE STORE TO LITTLE BIT OF WATER FOR THE RIO CHAMA ACEQUIA ASSOCIATIONS OUT THERE.

AND THEN, WE ALSO STORE WATER IF THE FISH, FOR THE ENDANGERED FISH DOWN HERE IN THIS VALLEY.

>> Elizabeth: RIGHT.

OF COURSE.

>> Oglesby: AND BELOW EL VADO, WE HAVE THIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT RECREATIONAL STRETCH WHERE YOU GOT THIS REALLY GOOD GERMAN BROWN TROUT POPULATION.

SO, FLOWS ARE REGULATED, IN CERTAIN WAYS, TO TRY TO HELP THOSE POPULATIONS AND BOOST THE FISHING ECONOMY.

AND THE RAFTING ECONOMY HAS REALLY RELIED ON STEADY WEEKEND RELEASES OUT OF EL VADO.

SO, CAREFULLY MANAGING OTHER PEOPLE'S WATER AND DELIVERING IT ON A SCHEDULE THAT HELPS BOOST THIS OTHER ECONOMY WITHIN NEW MEXICO, THE RECREATIONAL ECONOMY.

>> Elizabeth: RIGHT.

THAT'S LOT OF IMPACTS.

AND THAT'S A HIGHLY-COVETED STRETCH OF RIVER TO GET A PERMIT >> Oglesby: IT'S BEAUTIFUL.

>> Elizabeth: -- TO SPEND AN OVERNIGHT RAFT TRIP ON.

>> Oglesby: IT'S A MAGICAL PLACE.

>> Elizabeth: YEAH.

TOTALLY STUNNING.

ARE WE LOOKING AT CATASTROPHIC DAM FAILURE AS POSSIBLE HERE?

LIKE THE WHOLE THING COULD COLLAPSE?

OR HAS THAT BEEN AVERTED?

>> Oglesby: NO, NO.

I WON'T SAY ANYTHING HAS BEEN AVERTED BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIX IT.

ESSENTIALLY, WHAT HAPPENED IS THESE STEEL PLATES HAVE PUT DOWN ON DIRT AND THAT DIRT HAS CAVITATED BEHIND IT.

THE PLATES HAVE ERODED AND THEY'RE VERY OLD.

THE INITIAL ATTEMPTS TO FIX IT WERE TO PUT GROUTING ALONG AND BEHIND THESE PLATES.

BUT, UNFORTUNATELY, THE GROUTING CAUSED SOME OF THE PLATES TO BUCKLE.

SO, THAT'S WHEN THE FIX STOPPED.

FOLKS AT RECLAMATION STEPPED BACK AND SAID, THIS ISN'T GOING TO WORK AND WE NEED A NEW SOLUTION.

NO WORK IS BEING DONE AT EL VADO RIGHT NOW AND PROBABLY WON'T BE FOR A COUPLE YEARS WHILE WE DEVELOP WHAT THE PLAN IS TO FIX IT.

>> Elizabeth: SO THEY'RE REALLY KIND OF STUCK.

THEY DRAINED THE RESERVOIR IN 2022 IN THE HOPES THEY COULD START IMPLEMENTING THE FIX AND IT'S JUST -- >> Oglesby: THAT'S RIGHT.

YEAH.

>> Elizabeth: IT'S JUST NOT WORKING.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS THE DAM IS IN MUCH WORSE CONDITION THAN THEY ANTICIPATED?

>> Oglesby: YEAH, I MEAN IT'S BAD.

I WAS ON THE BOARD OF THE CONSERVANCY DISTRICT IN 2009-2017.

SO, WE'RE HAVING A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS ABOUT IT BACK THEN.

BACK THEN, IT WAS FULL.

WE WERE HOLDING LOT OF WATER, SO WE REALLY DIDN'T HAVE A STRONG IDEA OF THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM.

IN THOSE EARLY DAYS, WE WERE ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT BRINGING IN DIVERS TO GO IN AND FIX IT WHILE THE WATER WAS STILL IN THERE.

>> Elizabeth: OH, MY.

>> Oglesby: YEAH.

OF COURSE, NATURE HAS CHANGED THAT PLAN.

WE DON'T NEED DIVERS ANYMORE, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> Elizabeth: RIGHT.

GIVEN THE VISIBLE LACK OF SUCCESS WITH THIS APPROACH, AND CONSTRUCTION STOPPED AND LIKELY TO REMAIN STOPPED FOR AT LEAST ANOTHER THREE TO SIX YEARS, FORESEEABLE FUTURE, WHILE THE ENGINEERS TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO, HOW ARE WATER MANAGERS COPING WITHOUT THIS DAM?

WE TALKED ABOUT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT ASPECTS THAT ARE AFFECTED.

>> Oglesby: YEAH, WE'RE STILL ABLE TO USE IT A LITTLE BIT.

ABOUT 25,000 ACRE-FEET OF WATER CAN BE STORED THERE.

>> Elizabeth: OF 200,000?

>> Oglesby: YEAH.

IT'S GOOD TO KEEP IT IN PERSPECTIVE, FOR SURE.

ONE THING WE'VE TALKED ABOUT FOR YEARS HAS BEEN OUR INTEREST IN MANAGING OUR DAMS IN WHAT WE WOULD CALL A CONJUNCTIVE MANNER.

SO, TAKING AWAY THESE LIMITATIONS OF YOU CAN ONLY STORE ONE KIND OF WATER HERE AND ONE KIND OF WATER THERE, AND LOOKING AT HOW WE CAN USE THEM IN A MORE FLEXIBLE WAY, SO WE CAN OPTIMIZE THE SYSTEM AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF FREAK STORMS AND CAPTURE THAT WATER OR MOVE WATER TO CREATE SPACE WHEN WE NEED IT.

WE HAD OUR HANDS TIED BY THE LAWS THAT ESTABLISHED THESE RESERVOIRS.

THIS PROBLEM HAS CAUSED PEOPLE WHO OTHERWISE WOULD NOT BE THINKING ABOUT CREATIVE RESERVOIR OPERATIONS TO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THEM.

PART OF THE SOLUTION IS WE'RE STORING SOME OF THE PUEBLO'S WATER IN ABIQUIU.

AND THAT REQUIRED SOME APPROVAL OF THE TEXAS-RIO GRANDE COMPACT COMMISSIONER AND LOTS OF OTHER PEOPLE.

IT'S A LONG PROCESS, BUT THAT FLEXIBILITY IS SOMETHING THAT NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN CONTEMPLATED IF EL VADO WAS STILL FUNCTIONING.

SO, THERE MAY BE A LITTLE SILVER LINING HERE IN THAT WE'RE THINKING ABOUT OUR RESERVOIR MANAGEMENT IN A BROADER WAY.

>> Elizabeth: AND ADAPTATION COULD ROLL OUT AND TAKE UP OTHER ROLES, POTENTIALLY, AS WE'RE LOOKING AT A MORE CLIMATE-STRAINED FUTURE?

>> Oglesby: YEAH.

ABSOLUTELY.

IN FACT, CONGRESSWOMAN STANSBURY HAS BEEN TRYING TO CHAMPION AN EFFORT TO HAVE NATIONAL ACADEMY STUDY OUR RESERVOIR SYSTEMS ON THE RIO GRANDE.

>> Elizabeth: OH, WOW.

>> Oglesby: DOING A REALLY HIGH-LEVEL SCIENTIFIC ANALYSIS OF WHAT IS THE OPTIMAL TO USE THESE RESERVOIRS TO MAXIMIZE OUR WATER SUPPLIES.

>> Elizabeth: GREAT.

IN JANUARY, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DISMISSED ALL OF THE NATIONAL DAM SAFETY REVIEW BOARD MEMBERS.

DOES THE LACK OF THAT PIECE OF OVERSIGHT ADD ANY CONCERN HERE?

>> Oglesby: OH, ABSOLUTELY.

YEAH.

BECAUSE THERE ARE DAMS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF DAMS IN NEW MEXICO THAT NEED WORK.

THIS IS JUST A VERY PROMINENT SITUATION HERE.

YEAH, WE'RE THINKING THAT WE'RE PROBABLY GOING TO SEE 40% CUTS TO THE STAFF AT BUREAU OF RECLAMATION.

THEY HAVE HAVE A DENVER TECHNICAL SERVICE CENTER THAT PROVIDES A LOT OF THE RESEARCH WORK THAT HELPS US FIGURE OUT HOW TO FIX DAMS.

THE CUTS UP THERE COULD SERIOUSLY IMPACT THE TIMELINE THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT FOR FIXING EL VADO.

YEAH, TRUTH BE TOLD, WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION IT'S ALL SO CHAOTIC.

I DON'T WANT TO PREDICT ANYTHING.

BUT IT'S CERTAINLY NOT HELPING.

>> Elizabeth: RIGHT.

DEFINITELY HARD TO PREDICT AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT.

ADRIAN OGLESBY, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> Oglesby: ABSOLUTELY.

THANKS SO MUCH.

>> Schlosser: I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT WE DON'T WANT A NUCLEAR WAR AND HAVE THAT AS THE STARTING POINT, BUT THE CONVERSATION NEEDS TO BE HAPPENING.

AND WE REALLY NEED TO ALSO RECKON WITH OUR PAST.

AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THE CREATION OF THE NUCLEAR WEAPON ENTERPRISE HAD PROFOUND EFFECTS ON THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN IT, THE PEOPLE WHOSE LAND WAS TAKEN, THE DAMAGE THAT WE'VE DONE TO THE ENVIRONMENT.

>> Nash: WE'LL HEAR FROM THE FOLKS BEHIND THE EXHIBIT AND FILM 'THE BOMB', IN ABOUT TEN MINUTES.

"WHEN YOU'RE URBAN, YOU'RE DISCONNECTED."

THAT'S A QUOTE FROM THIS MONTH'S EPISODE OF INDIGENOUSLY POSITIVE, OUR COLLABORATION WITH NONPROFIT NEWS OUTLET NEW MEXICO IN DEPTH.

CORRESPONDENT BELLA DAVIS TAKES US TO A POWWOW DANCE CLASS IN DOWNTOWN ALBUQUERQUE TO EXPLORE THE IMPORTANCE OF FINDING COMMUNITY IN URBAN SPACES, ALONG WITH POWWOW ETIQUETTE.

HERE'S BELLA.

>> Niko: THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF YEARS WE'VE BEEN HERE.

POWWOW IS A WAY OF RESISTANCE, RECLAIMING OUR CULTURE.

WHEN YOU'RE URBAN, YOU'RE DISCONNECTED.

AND WE'RE BOMBARDED CONSTANTLY WITH OUR JOB, SCHOOL, HAVING TO STUDY.

OF COURSE, TECHNOLOGY ALL THE TIME, AND I WANTED TO PROVIDE A SAFE SPACE WHERE ADULTS AND YOUTH COULD COME AND EXPLORE THEIR CULTURE IN A POSITIVE WAY.

[DRUMS AND SINGING] >> Bella: NIKO DEROIN-SILVA IS THE OWNER OF POWWOW WELLNESS.

SHE IS TEACHING CLASSES ONCE A WEEK IN DOWNTOWN ALBUQUERQUE WHERE FOLKS CAN CAN PRACTICE DANCING AND LEARN ABOUT ETIQUETTE AT POWWOWS, WHICH BASICALLY ARE GATHERINGS THAT FEATURE DANCING, DRUMMING, AND SINGING IN THE CELEBRATION OF INDIGENOUS CULTURES.

NIKO'S CLASS ALSO GIVES COMMUNITY MEMBERS THE CHANCE TO SHARE KNOWLEDGE WITH EACH OTHER LIKE MAKING REGALIA.

>> Juanita: THEY NEEDED THIS FOR THESE YOUTH AND THESE YOUNG PEOPLE TO GIVE THEM THE SPACE WHERE THEY CAN COME AND LEARN THESE THINGS.

AND THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE EMBARRASSED.

THEY CAN JUST BE THEMSELVES AND BE HAPPY AND BE OPEN AND LEARN TO DANCE AND LEARN WHAT THE SONGS ARE ABOUT AND WHAT THE DIFFERENT DANCE STYLES ARE.

>> Niko: SO, THE WORD POWWOW, THE ORIGINAL WORD IS PAU WAU.

IT'S SPELLED A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY.

IT'S ORIGINALLY AN ALGONQUIAN WORD.

[DRUMS AND SINGING] >> Bella: ONE TRANSLATION OF THAT ORIGINAL WORD IS 'HE DREAMS' REFERRING TO A MEDICINE MAN.

SOME TRACE THE ROOTS OF TODAY'S POWWOWS AT LEAST A COUPLE HUNDRED YEARS BACK.

THE GATHERINGS CONTINUE TO GROW AS MORE NATIVE AMERICANS MOVE TO CITIES AS PART OF THE INDIAN RELOCATION ACT OF 1956.

IT WAS ONE STEP IN A LONG EFFORT BY THE U.S. TO ASSIMILATE NATIVE AMERICANS AND ULTIMATELY TAKE AWAY OUR LANDS.

>> Niko: SO, YOU HAVE THIS UPRISE OF, YOU KNOW, THESE REPRESSED INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES STARTING TO SAY, HEY, WE'D LIKE TO RECLAIM THAT.

AND LET'S GO FORWARD AND BE COMMUNITY AND WE'RE IN THESE URBAN AREAS AND LET'S LEARN FROM EACH OTHER.

>> ALL RIGHT, I KNOW YOU KNOW HOW TO MAKE A CIRCLE.

LET'S MAKE A CIRCLE OVER HERE.

MAKE A CIRCLE OVER HERE.

AND THIS IS OUR LAST ACTIVITY.

>> Niko: IF I CALL OUT SOMETHING THAT RESONATES WITH YOU OR WE HAVE IN COMMON, THEN ALL THOSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SWITCH PLACES.

>> I LOVE MY RELATIVES THAT LIKE THE COLOR RED.

>> Jessa Rae: I HAVE KNOWN NIKO DEROIN MY ENTIRE LIFE.

WE HAVE KNOWN EACH OTHER SINCE WE WERE JUST LIKE THESE KIDS RUNNING AROUND US.

WE GREW UP IN JUNIORS IN NORTHERN CALIFORNIA.

SO, WE GREW UP IN THE POWWOW CIRCLE TOGETHER.

FOR LONG TIME, NIKO HAS TALKED ABOUT THIS.

YOU KNOW, FOR YEARS, SHE'S TALKED ABOUT HER DREAM OF CREATING A SPACE FOR FAMILIES TO COME TOGETHER AND DANCE AND LEARN AND BE A PART OF THE POWWOW CIRCLE AND PRACTICE WELLNESS IN THAT WAY.

>> Bella: THE CLASS WE WENT TO IS HELD AT THE RESILIENCE HUB, RUN BY NEW MEXICO COMMUNITY CAPITAL, A NONPROFIT THAT SUPPORTS NATIVE ENTREPRENEURS.

NIKO STARTED THE CLASS EARLIER THIS YEAR, AFTER TEACHING HER FIRST FORMAL POWWOW LESSONS AT THE NATIVE AMERICAN COMMUNITY ACADEMY.

>> Niko: IT WAS REALLY COOL TO SEE PEOPLE WHEN THEY CAME TO PICK UP THEIR STUDENTS.

YOU KNOW, I HAD DADS THAT SAID, HEY, I HAVE A DRUM, DO YOU MIND IF WHERE BRING IT?

I'M LIKE, "YES, OF COURSE!"

AND I HAVE PEOPLE THAT I CAN BRING AND I CAN INVITE BOYS TO THE DRUMS, SHOW THEM HOW IT'S DONE.

AND THEN ANOTHER DAD CAME AND SAID, HEY, CAN I JAM WITH YOU?

I SING SOUTHERN, OR I SING NORTHERN.

AND ANOTHER PARENT SAID, HEY, I HAVE THESE SHAWLS THAT ARE JUST COLLECTING DUST, MAYBE I COULD DONATE THEM TO YOUR CLASS.

I HAD ANOTHER PARENT OFFER TO SEW PARTS OF REGALIA.

SO, COMMUNITY JUST STARTED TO FORM FROM THAT ONE CLASS.

AND IT JUST SNOWBALLED.

>> SHIELD CHIEF, TAKE IT AWAY!

[DRUMS AND SINGING] >> Wil: THE NAME OF MY DRUM GROUP IS SHIELD CHIEF.

IT'S A FAMILY NAME FROM MY GRANDFATHER -- GREAT GRANDFATHER WHOSE NAME IS SHIELD CHIEF.

[SPEAKING ORIGINAL LANGUAGE] AND KEEPING IN LINE WITH THE PAWNEE VIBE I HAD GOING SINGING WITH MY FAMILY, OUR FAMILY GROUP WAS PUMPKIN VINE, WHICH OUR CLAN ON OUR SKIDI SIDE.

[ SPEAKING ORIGINAL LANGUAGE ] THERE'S BEEN A FEW TIMES WE'VE HAD COMMUNITY MEMBERS APPROACH US AND ASK IS IT OKAY IF MY NEPHEW STARTS SINGING, OR IT'S A QUESTION OF WHAT AGE CAN THEY START?

OR IS IT APPROPRIATE?

THESE ARE QUESTIONS THAT I NEVER REALLY THOUGHT OF OR TAKEN HAVE GRANTED BECAUSE I GREW UP IN THIS.

SINCE BIRTH IS WHEN WE START.

FOR ME, BACK HOME YOU JUST ASK THE HEAD SINGER TO SING.

IF IT'S OKAY.

BUT FOR SOMEBODY THAT DOESN'T COME FROM, MAYBE, THAT BACKGROUND OR DOESN'T KNOW THE ETIQUETTE AND PROTOCOL IT COULD BE A LITTLE INTIMIDATING.

I'M DEFINITELY GLAD TO COME OUT AND ANSWER ANY OF THOSE QUESTIONS AND HELP THEM THROUGH THE PROCESS.

JUST SHOW THAT IT'S IT IS OPEN AND IT'S WELCOMING.

IT'S NOT A -- IT SHOULDN'T BE A SCARY THING TO TRY TO LEARN TO DANCE OR SING.

>> Bella: NIKO POINTS OUT THAT WITH 574 FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED TRIBES IN THE U.S., PLUS HUNDREDS OF INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES IN CANADA, THERE'S NUANCE TO ALL OF THIS.

PLUS, NOT ALL TRIBES HOST POWWOWS.

BUT FOR ANYONE INTERESTED IN ATTENDING, THERE'S SOME BASICS TO KEEP IN MIND.

>> Niko: I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER FOR NON-NATIVES COMING INTO OUR COMMUNITIES FOR A POWWOW IS RESPECT.

SOMETIMES A CEREMONY MIGHT BE GOING ON AND THEY'LL SAY, PLEASE, NO PICTURES, NO RECORDING.

THAT'S IMPORTANT.

>> I ASK THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE CAMERAS ON YOUR PHONES, WE ASK THAT YOU REFRAIN FROM TAKING ANY KIND OF PICTURES OR VIDEO.

AGAIN, WE ASK THAT YOU REFRAIN FROM TAKING ANY KIND OF PICTURE OR VIDEO DURING THIS PORTION OF THIS INITIATION CEREMONY.

>> Niko: I, MYSELF, I DON'T MIND IF YOU COME IN A GOOD WAY AND SAY I'M NOT FAMILIAR, COULD YOU EXPLAIN SOME OF THE DANCES OR THE PROTOCOL OR WHERE COULD WE SIT.

SOMETIMES, THEY'LL HAVE A DESIGNATED AREA FOR NON-NATIVES.

>> Bella: GROWING UP, NIKO DANCED IN WHAT'S CALLED THE TINY TOTS CATEGORY FOR YOUNG CHILDREN.

SOME OF HER RELATIVES STILL TALK FONDLY ABOUT NIKO BEING IN THE POWWOW ARENA AS SOON AS SHE COULD WALK.

>> Niko: WE CALL IT A COMING-OUT CEREMONY, WHERE WE GIVE SOMEONE THE RIGHT TO DANCE.

AND THE PERSON SPONSORING THE DANCER WILL SHOW THEM AROUND THE ARENA AND TEACH THEM ABOUT THE REGALIA.

I KNOW FROM MY OWN TRIBE, WE DRESS THEM IN THE ARENA.

AS A WITNESS, EVERYBODY CAN SEE THAT THEY ARE LOVED.

THEY ARE CARED FOR.

THEY ARE SUPPORTED.

AND THAT'S WHAT REALLY NEEDED TO HAPPEN IS EVERYBODY COMING TOGETHER SAYING WE SUPPORT YOU.

YOU ARE LOVED.

YES, WE HAD SOME BIG TRAUMA OVER THE YEARS, BUT WE'RE STILL HERE.

WE'VE ADAPTED.

WE OVERCAME.

WE'RE RESILIENT.

SO, POWWOW IS A BIG FORCE OF THAT.

>> Nash: THANKS TO BELLA DAVIS, PRODUCER BENJAMIN YAZZA, AND PHOTOJOURNALIST JOEY DUNN FOR THEIR WORK.

YOU CAN WATCH ALL FOUR INSTALLMENTS OF INDIGENOUSLY POSITIVE ON THE NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

WE FINISH OUT THE SHOW THIS WEEK EXPLORING A TOPIC WITH DANGEROUS IMPLICATIONS FOR THE ENTIRE PLANET, AND A PARTICULARLY EMOTIONAL CONNECTION HERE IN NEW MEXICO, NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

OPEN RIGHT NOW AT UNM ZIMMERMAN LIBRARY, A NEW EXHIBIT CALLED 'THE BOMB' TAKES VISITORS THROUGH A SERIES OF IMAGES AND ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE AND FILM CLIPS DOCUMENTING THE UNSETTLING HISTORY AND UNCERTAIN FUTURE OF THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL MACHINE.

KUNM NEWS DIRECTOR AND NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS CORRESPONDENT MEGAN KAMERICK SPEAKS WITH THE TWO PEOPLE WHO CREATED THE EXHIBIT AND THE FILM THAT INSPIRED IT.

JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR ERIC SCHLOSSER AND FILMMAKER SMRITI KESHARI.

ALSO AT THE TABLE IS MYRRIAH GOMEZ, THE PROFESSOR WHO HELPED BRING THE INSTALLATION TO UNM.

HERE'S MEGAN.

>> Megan: THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

ERIC, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

YEARS AGO, I INTERVIEWED YOU AT THIS VERY TABLE WHEN 'COMMAND AND CONTROL' CAME OUT.

AND YOUR BOOK EXPOSED THE CHALLENGES OF MANAGING OUR NUCLEAR ARSENAL.

THEN YOU MADE THIS FILM WITH SMRITI, 'THE BOMB.'

WHY DID YOU WANT TO CONTINUE YOUR WORK IN THIS KIND OF FORMAT?

>> Schlosser: YOU KNOW, I THINK THE THREAT POSED BY NUCLEAR WEAPONS IS PROBABLY THE GREATEST EXISTENTIAL THREAT THAT WE FACE.

AND WITH MY WORK, I'VE REALLY TRIED TO BRING ATTENTION TO THE ISSUE IN A WAY THAT WILL BEGIN A CONVERSATION AND DEBATE.

IN NEW MEXICO, BECAUSE OF ALL THE NUCLEAR FACILITIES HERE, I THINK THERE'S A REAL AWARENESS OF IT.

BUT, AT THE SAME TIME IN THE UNITED STATES, THERE'S A REMARKABLE AMOUNT OF AMNESIA ABOUT THE NUCLEAR THREAT.

RIGHT NOW IN EUROPE, PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT IT BECAUSE OF PUTIN'S NUCLEAR THREATS AGAINST UKRAINE AND COUNTRIES ARE BEGINNING TO WONDER IF THEY NEED THEIR OWN NUCLEAR WEAPONS, BUT THIS IS A HUGE ISSUE THAT WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE IN THE 1980s EVERYBODY TALKED ABOUT.

AND NOW IT'S BEEN LARGELY FORGOTTEN.

SO, MY BOOK AND THIS FILM ARE BOTH WAYS OF TRYING TO PROVOKE A DIALOGUE AND GET PEOPLE TO THINK AGAIN.

>> Megan: I REMEMBER THAT WELL, BEING IN COLLEGE IN THE '80s.

SMRITI, ERIC'S BOOK IS VERY DENSE WITH FACTS AND STORIES OF SOME PRETTY TERRIFYING MISTAKES AND NEAR MISSES IN MANAGING THE NUCLEAR ARSENAL.

THE FILM HAS NO NARRATION.

IT'S IMAGES, IT'S SOUND DESIGN, ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE AND ANIMATION.

WHY CHOOSE THE TECHNIQUES YOU DID TO TELL THE STORY?

>> Keshari: YEAH.

WELL, THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WE TALKED ABOUT FROM THE ONSET, TO DEGREE THE INFORMATION IS THERE.

YOU KNOW, THESE EXPERTS ARE PEOPLE TALKING AT YOU.

BUT WITH THIS, WE REALLY WANTED TO TAKE PEOPLE THROUGH THIS VISCERAL AND EMOTIONAL UNDERSTANDING OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS, TO NOT TELL THEM HOW TO FEEL, BUT TO LET THEM GO THROUGH THAT JOURNEY.

AND THAT WAS REALLY AT THE HEART OF IT, NOT JUST ERIC AND I, BUT ALSO OUR AMAZING CO-DIRECTOR KEVIN FORD AND ALSO THE BAND WHO DID THE LIVE SCORE.

THE MUSIC IS SUCH A CENTRAL PART OF THE NARRATIVE.

OUR CREATIVE DIRECTOR, OR OUR ARTISTIC DIRECTOR STANLEY DONWOOD WHO TOOK A LOT OF THE RAW MATERIAL AND THE RESEARCH THAT ERIC HAD AND USED IT AS ANIMATION AND ILLUSTRATION THROUGH THE FILM.

SO, IT WAS REALLY THIS COLLABORATIVE PROCESS WITH THE CREATIVE TEAM.

AND WE WERE ALWAYS ON THE SAME PAGE OF WANTING TO TAKE PEOPLE THROUGH THE WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FELT WHEN THEY WERE HAVING TO GO TO SCHOOL AND GO THROUGH DUCK AND COVER.

AND YOU'RE SEEING THE HEADLINES AND THE EFFECT THAT IT HAS, YOU REALLY FEEL IT IN YOUR BONES.

>> Megan: ERIC, THE EXHIBIT AT UNM ZIMMERMAN LIBRARY IS A RECONFIGURING OF THE FILM INTO A MORE IMMERSIVE EXPERIENCE.

WHY DID YOU WANT TO CREATE THIS NEW ITERATION WITH SMRITI?

>> Schlosser: BACK TO THE EARLIER QUESTION.

I WROTE MY BOOK AND THEN THERE WAS A PBS DOCUMENTARY BASED ON THE BOOK THAT I FEEL VERY PROUD OF.

IT WAS A MORE CONVENTIONAL DOCUMENTARY WITH INTERVIEWS AND EXPLAINING THINGS FOR YOU.

AND WITH 'THE BOMB' SMRITI AND I WANTED TO DO SOMETHING THAT WORKED ON A DIFFERENT SORT OF LEVEL.

AS SHE SAID, ON A VISCERAL EMOTIONAL LEVEL, SO THAT WHEN WE STAGE IT ON A LARGE SCALE, WHICH WE DID IN BERLIN AND SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA, AT THE NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES AT WASHINGTON, D.C., IN OSLO AT THE NOBEL PEACE CEREMONIES, WE HAD A BAND PLAYING LIVE AS THE FILM WAS PROJECTED.

I HAVE IT ON MULTIPLE SCREENS OR A VERY LARGE SCREEN.

BUT CONCERT MANAGEMENT AND PROMOTION IS NOT OUR SKILL SET.

AND IT TOOK SO MUCH TIME AND ENERGY TO DO ONE OF THOSE PERFORMANCES THAT WE CREATED AN INSTALLATION THAT HAS MULTIPLE SCREENS THAT HAS RECORDED MUSIC SO THE BAND DOESN'T HAVE TO TRAVEL EVERYWHERE IT GOES.

AND WE'VE BEEN TALKING IT TO COLLEGE CAMPUSES AROUND THE UNITED STATES.

AND THE INSTALLATION WILL BE PUT IN A GALLERY AND IT WILL BE UP FOR A MONTH OR SO.

AND SMRITI AND I WILL GO TO THE COLLEGE AND TRY TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH PANELS, WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE, WITH DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW.

I'VE ENGAGED WITH ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE ON THIS ISSUE, FROM HIGH-GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, TO HIGH-LEVEL PEOPLE AT THE LABS AND AT THE AIR FORCE.

AND THEY'RE REALLY STRONGLY DIFFERENT OPINIONS ON HOW TO GO FORWARD.

BUT I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT WE DON'T WANT A NUCLEAR WAR, AND HAVE THAT AS THE STARTING POINT.

BUT THE CONVERSATION NEEDS TO BE HAPPENING.

AND WE REALLY NEED TO ALSO RECKON WITH OUR PAST.

AND THE WAYS IN WHICH THE CREATION OF THE NUCLEAR WEAPON ENTERPRISE HAS HAD PROFOUND EFFECTS ON THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN IT, THE PEOPLE WHOSE LAND WAS TAKEN, THE DAMAGE THAT WE'VE DONE TO THE ENVIRONMENT.

AND MY BACKGROUND ACADEMICALLY IS IN HISTORY.

I REALLY BELIEVE WE NEED TO CONFRONT OUR HISTORY, ACKNOWLEDGE OUR HISTORY, IN ORDER TO MOVE FORWARD IN A JUST AND HONORABLE WAY.

>> Megan: MYRRIAH GOMEZ, LET ME TURN TO YOU.

YOU'VE BEEN A SCHOLAR OF THE IMPACT OF THE BOMB AND THE NUCLEAR INDUSTRY IN NEW MEXICO.

WHAT KIND OF IMPACT DID THIS ART INSTALLATION HAVE ON YOU AND THE FILM?

>> Gomez: YOU KNOW, WHEN SMRITI AND ERIC FIRST CONTACTED ME, THERE WAS NO WAY OF TURNING THIS OPPORTUNITY DOWN.

WHAT I HAVE FOUND IN MY -- I'VE BEEN TEACHING A CLASS AT UNM CALLED ATOMIC BOMB CULTURE, FOR JUST ABOUT TEN YEARS NOW.

AND WHAT I FIND IS THAT THIS GENERATION OF COLLEGE STUDENTS AND THIS YOUNGER AND UPCOMING GENERATION, THEY DON'T KNOW VERY MUCH.

THEY'RE ENOUGH REMOVED FROM THE COLD WAR TO WHERE THEY EITHER DON'T KNOW OR THEY WILL READILY ADMIT WE DIDN'T LEARN ANY OF THIS IN NEW MEXICO HISTORY, IN U.S. HISTORY.

SO, WHEN WE'RE ENTERING -- WE ENTERED JANUARY OF 2025 WITH THE DOOMSDAY CLOCK BEING MOVED TO THE CLOSEST IT'S EVER BEEN AT 89 SECONDS, AND THEY DON'T REALLY HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THAT.

SO, WHEN THE CREATORS FIRST APPROACHED ME, I SAID WE HAVE TO DO THIS.

WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO ENGAGE COLLEGE STUDENTS AND THE ALBUQUERQUE AND NEW MEXICO COMMUNITY IN GENERAL, IN THIS CONVERSATION IN A WAY THAT I FEEL IS APPROACHABLE.

IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE IT'S TALKING HEADS TALKING AT YOU.

LIKE SMRITI SAID, IT'S VERY EVOCATIVE IN TERMS OF MAKING THE VIEWER GO THROUGH THE SET OF EMOTIONS.

I THINK, FOR ME, THERE WAS A LOT OF NEW FOOTAGE FOR ME, BUT LOT OF NUCLEAR TESTING FOOTAGE FOR WATCHING THAT HISTORICAL FOOTAGE AND ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE.

AND I KNOW THAT WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE AS WE ARE ESSENTIALLY IN A NEW MANHATTAN PROJECT DEVELOPING NEW NUCLEAR WEAPONS, ALL OF THOSE PLUTONIUM PITS AT THIS POINT ARE BEING BUILT IN NEW MEXICO IN LOS ALAMOS.

AND WE HAVE TO BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT NUCLEAR TESTING RIGHT NOW.

AND COLLEGE STUDENTS NEED TO BE PREPARED TO ENTER THAT DIALOGUE.

>> Megan: SMRITI, WHAT KIND OF REACTIONS HAVE YOU SEEN WITH PEOPLE ON CAMPUSES, ESPECIALLY, INTERACTING WITH THE FILM?

>> Keshari: THEY'RE DEBATING.

AND THEY ARE ALSO ASKING US QUESTIONS.

ERIC, 'COMMAND AND CONTROL' HAS REALLY MADE SUCH AN IMPACT ON THE NUCLEAR WEAPON FIELD, I WOULD SAY.

SO, FOR THEM TO EVEN BE ABLE TO TALK TO ERIC ABOUT IT, IT KIND OF JUST GIVES IT A NEW ENTRY POINT.

AND I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS IN COLLEGE AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THIS EARLIER, IT'S IMPACT THAT 'FAST FOOD NATION' HAD -- >> Megan: ANOTHER ONE OF ERIC'S BOOKS.

>> Keshari: YEAH.

IN WAKING US UP TO THE REALITY OF THE FOOD INDUSTRY.

I THINK THAT'S REALLY AT THE ONSET.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THIS IS RIGHT, THIS IS WRONG, LEFT OR RIGHT.

IT'S MORE ABOUT INVESTING AND STARTING TO GET EXPOSED OR INTERESTED IN THE SUBJECT MATTER.

>> Megan: I'M INTERESTED IN THE AESTHETIC CHOICES IN THE IMAGES YOU DECIDED TO USE.

I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE OF YOU WOULD LIKE TO TALK ABOUT THAT?

>> Schlosser: WHAT SPECIFICALLY -- WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

>> Megan: YOU START WITH -- WE SEE LOTS OF DIFFERENT ARMIES, PRESUMABLY ALL THE NUCLEAR POWERS.

WE SEE A LOT OF ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE.

WE SEE A LOT OF THINGS OF THE MACHINERY.

TO YOUR BOOK, THE MACHINERY THAT'S CONTAINING THESE WEAPONS.

>> Schlosser: THE FILM IS NON-LINEAR.

IT DOESN'T HAVE A NARRATOR.

IT DOESN'T HAVE INTERVIEWS.

BUT IT'S VERY CAREFULLY STRUCTURED.

SO, IT'S NOT A SERIES OF RANDOM IMAGES.

AND THE FILM OPENS UP IN SPACE WITH SATELLITE PHOTOGRAPHY OF EARTH.

AND EARTH IS BEAUTIFUL FROM SPACE.

AND WHEN YOU GET A LITTLE CLOSER IS WHEN YOU -- YOU KNOW, THE NEXT SEQUENCE IS THE ARMIES MARCHING.

AND UP UNTIL NOW, THE UNITED STATES HAS NOT PARADED ITS NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AND THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T HAVE A HUGE TRADITION, EXCEPT ON MAYBE MEMORIAL DAY, OF MILITARY PARADES.

WHEREAS, OTHER COUNTRIES THAT ARE NUCLEAR POWERS SHOW OFF THEIR NUCLEAR WEAPONS AS SYMBOLS OF THEIR NATIONAL MIGHT.

AND WITHOUT GOING THROUGH THE WHOLE FILM, THESE MACHINES ARE BEAUTIFUL.

AS MAN-MADE OBJECTS, THEY'RE SHINY, THEY'RE INGENIOUS AND WITH THE RESEARCH I DID, I SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH PEOPLE FROM SANDIA.

AND THEY'VE DONE REMARKABLE TECHNICAL WORK.

AND THE FACT THAT WE NEVER HAD A NUCLEAR WEAPONS ACCIDENT WITH A FULL-SCALE DETONATION IS A TESTAMENT TO THE SCIENTIFIC AND ENGINEERING SKILL, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THERE IS THIS ALLURE OF THESE WEAPONS.

AND THEIR POWER AS MANIFEST IN THESE GIGANTIC EXPLOSIONS, WHICH IF YOU LIKE FIREWORKS, AS I DO -- >> Megan: THEY'RE PRETTY MESMERIZING -- >> Schlosser: THERE'S SOMETHING VERY MESMERIZING.

BUT THEN AS YOU REALIZE WHAT THEY CAN DO, THEY LOSE THEIR APPEAL.

SO, I DON'T WANT TO GO THROUGH THE WHOLE FILM.

BUT IT WAS REALLY INTENDED TO BE A VISUAL JOURNEY THAT WORKS ON A DIFFERENT LEVEL FROM THE WAY THAT I'M EVEN EXPLAINING IT RIGHT NOW.

>> Megan: RIGHT.

>> Schlosser: MY BOOK HAS SO MANY PAGES OF FOOTNOTES AND SOURCES, AND THAT'S A CERTAIN KIND OF RATIONAL, LOGICAL MIND THAT I REALLY BELIEVE IN.

I BELIEVE IN SCIENCE.

I BELIEVE IN EMPIRICAL METHOD.

I BELIEVE IN STUDYING HISTORY.

BUT THEN I ALSO THINK THAT THERE ARE CERTAIN TRUTHS THAT CAN BE COMMUNICATED A DIFFERENT WAY.

AND THAT'S WHAT THE FILM THAT SMRITI AND I MADE TRIES TO DO.

>> Keshari: ONE THING THAT I'LL ADD TO THAT IS THAT WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS THE CONVERSATION SO QUICKLY GOES INTO IT CAN BECOME ABOUT THE COUNTRIES AND WHO HAS THEM AND MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS AND WHICH ONE AND QUANTITY.

AND DETERRENCE -- BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ERIC'S BOOK REALLY DID IS REALLY LOOKED AT IT FROM POINT OF VIEW FROM THE FOCUS OF THE MACHINE.

AND IT'S THIS MACHINE THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

AND WE'RE NOT SAYING NO TO DEFENSE.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THERE ARE LOW COMBAT MISSILES.

THERE'S PRECISION.

BUT THIS MACHINE, SPECIFICALLY, IS THE MOST POWERFUL MACHINE EVER BUILT.

SO, COMING INTO IT FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW OF SHOWING THIS IS THE THING THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

THIS IS HOW POWERFUL IT IS.

THIS IS THE CONSEQUENCES.

BUT IT'S THIS MACHINE.

IT HELPS TO GET PEOPLE ON THE SAME SORT OF PLACE BECAUSE IF YOU'RE THINKING I NEED TO DEFEND, YOU KNOW, OR IF YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT SAFETY OR SECURITY, IT'S A DIFFERENT DIALOGUE.

BUT IF WE'RE ALL TALKING ABOUT THIS MACHINE, HOW POWERFUL IT IS, THE CONSEQUENCES IT HAS.

IS THIS WHAT WE WOULD USE IF YOU WERE A BUSINESS INVESTOR?

IS THIS THE MACHINE YOU WOULD INVEST IN?

WHEN YOU COME INTO IT FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW, AND THEN VISUALLY TO GET PEOPLE THERE, LET'S SHOW THE THING THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT.

IT'S NOT ALL THESE OTHER THINGS.

IT'S THIS.

>> Megan: IT WAS ALSO VERY MOVING TO SHOW -- YOU HAD THE IMAGES THAT PEOPLE MADE WHO HAD BEEN IN HIROSHIMA WERE VERY MOVING AS IT COMES RIGHT AFTER SOME OF THESE THINGS THAT ARE MESMERIZING.

MYRRIAH, THERE'S ALSO ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE OF THE CREATION OF LOS ALAMOS.

I WAS WONDERING HOW THAT SAT WITH YOU WHILE YOU WATCHED IT, OR OTHER PARTS OF THE FILM YOU WANT TO COMMENT ON?

>> Gomez: I MEAN, THE ARCHIVAL FOOTAGE IS ALWAYS INTERESTING FOR ME TO WATCH, FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

AND AS I'M LISTENING TO YOU ALL TALK ABOUT THE ARTISTIC COMPONENTS OF THE FILM, I THINK THAT FOR SOME OF US IN NEW MEXICO TO WATCH THAT IN THIS WAY WITHOUT A VOICEOVER, BEING CONFRONTED WITH THAT IMAGERY, WILL BE DIFFICULT.

AND I THINK, FOR ME, YOU DO GO THROUGH THIS RANGE OF EMOTIONS AS YOU'RE WATCHING THIS FILM.

THERE'S A PARTICULAR SCENE -- AND NOT TO GIVE THE FILM AWAY, BUT I WILL SAY THERE'S A PARTICULAR SCENE WHERE THE NARRATIVE SORT OF GETS TO THE MANHATTAN PROJECT.

AND THERE'S SOME TRINITY FOOTAGE THERE AS WELL.

AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THESE SORTS OF NARRATIVES THAT THE POPULATION -- THE AMERICAN POPULATION IN PARTICULAR, IS USED TO THINKING ABOUT OR RECEIVING WHEN IT COMES TO THE TRINITY TEST OR WHEN IT COMES TO MANHATTAN PROJECT.

AND THERE'S THE REST OF US THINKING WE HAVE A DIFFERENT NARRATIVE OR DIFFERENT STORY OR A DIFFERENT SORT OF VOICEOVER IN OUR HEADS WHEN WE'RE WATCHING THAT.

FOR DOWNWINDERS IN THE TULAROSA BASIN IT MAY BE WATCHING THAT FOOTAGE OF THEM LOADING THE GADGET AND THINKING THAT WAS THE LAST DAY THAT WE COULD HAVE ESCAPED WHAT WAS TO COME FOR THE NEXT 80 YEARS.

OR FOR ME IN PARTICULAR, THE FOOTAGE IN LOS ALAMOS.

THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE THERE BEFORE MY GREAT GRANDPARENTS WERE EVICTED FROM THEIR FARM.

>> Megan: MYRRIAH, HOW CAN THIS KIND OF ART REACH PEOPLE IN OTHER WAYS?

SMRITI TOUCHED ON THIS, BUT PERHAPS EVEN BOOKS OR OTHER SCHOLARSHIP CAN'T.

>> Gomez: ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVE WITH THE EXHIBIT AND I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE MEL RIBAS AT UNIVERSITY LIBRARIES WHOSE BEEN REALLY INSTRUMENTAL IN COORDINATING THE EXHIBITION OF IT AT ZIMMERMAN.

THERE'S A BIG WALL WHERE FOLKS, VIEWERS CAN ESSENTIALLY WRITE COMMENTS REFLECTING ON HOW NUCLEAR WEAPONS MAKES THEM FEEL.

BECAUSE I THINK WE OFTEN THINK ABOUT NUCLEAR ISSUES IN THESE SORTS OF VERY OBJECTIVE WAYS AND IT IS LIKE THIS VERY CLEAR-CUT SORT OF THINKING AND WE DON'T THINK ABOUT EMOTION, OFTENTIMES.

SO THIS FILM OPENS IT UP TO THAT EMOTIONAL RESPONSE AND LETTING PEOPLE BE AFRAID OR BE WHATEVER IT IS.

I HAD A STUDENT IN MY CLASS THIS SEMESTER.

THE VERY FIRST DAY OF CLASS WAS LIKE I DON'T KNOW IF I SHOULD BE HERE.

I'M SO AFRAID OF NUCLEAR WEAPON, ET CETERA.

AND I'VE WATCHED THIS STUDENT IN PARTICULAR THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THE SEMESTER, AND MY STUDENTS WILL BE PRESENTING SOME OF THEIR WORK AS PART OF THE SYMPOSIUM.

BUT I'VE WATCHED THE STUDENT, NOW THAT SHE HAS THE INFORMATION AND CRITICAL THINKING SKILLS TO ENGAGE WITH THAT, SHE HAS DIFFERENT THOUGHTS.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY SHE'S ANY LESS AFRAID, BUT I THINK BEING ABLE TO ENGAGE CRITICAL THINKING IS WHAT'S IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE IF I WAS THERE AS A PROFESSOR JUST TELLING STUDENTS WHAT TO THINK AND HOW TO THINK, I'M NOT REALLY DOING MY JOB.

I THINK THE FILM ALLOWS FOR THAT SORT OF CRITICAL THINKING AND CRITICAL ENGAGEMENT WITH THESE ISSUES.

>> Schlosser: I JUST WANT TO ADD THAT THE MANHATTAN PROJECT AND THE HISTORY OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT, NOT NECESSARILY THE CONVENTIONAL HISTORY IN WHICH A GROUP OF BRILLIANT SCIENTISTS CREATE A NEW MACHINE, BUT THE BROADER HISTORY OF HOW THEY DID IT, WHAT THEY DID TO THE LAND, WHO OWNED THE LAND, WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES HAVE BEEN.

IT COULD NOT BE MORE RELEVANT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE AS WE SIT HERE THERE IS A MANHATTAN PROJECT GOING ON IN IRAN.

THERE'S THE BEGINNINGS OF MANHATTAN PROJECT IN SOUTH KOREA.

IT'S EXTRAORDINARY TO ME HOW MANY COUNTRIES ARE NOW THINKING ABOUT HAVING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AND THE NON-PROLIFERATION REGIME THAT WAS INITIATED BY PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON, WHICH WAS TO LIMIT THE NUMBER OF COUNTRIES WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND COMMIT THE UNITED STATES TO GETTING RID OF OUR ARSENAL AS WELL AS THE RUSSIANS, THAT WHOLE NOTION IS NOW IN DANGER.

SO, AGAIN, GETTING BACK TO HISTORY, I HOPE THAT ALL THESE COUNTRIES WILL THINK VERY CAREFULLY ABOUT WHAT WE'VE DONE IN THIS COUNTRY, AND ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES HERE BECAUSE THE MORE COUNTRIES HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS, THE MORE UNSTABLE THE WORLD ORDER IS GOING TO BE.

AND MY BOOK IS ABOUT THE REALLY COMPLEX TECHNOLOGICAL SYSTEMS THAT YOU NEED TO MANAGE THIS ARSENAL EFFECTIVELY.

AND WITHOUT BEING FALSELY NATIONALISTIC AND JINGOISTIC, WE INVENTED THIS TECHNOLOGY.

WE PERFECTED IT.

I HAVE MORE FAITH IN OUR NUCLEAR ENTERPRISE THAN ANY OTHER IN THE WORLD.

YET, WE'VE COME CLOSE A NUMBER OF TIMES TO BLOWING OURSELVES UP.

SO, IT SHOULD BE A VERY CAUTIONARY TALE TO ANY OTHER COUNTRY THAT'S THINKING ABOUT HAVING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AND THE MANHATTAN PROJECT IS SOMETHING THAT ALL THESE COUNTRIES SHOULD LOOK CAREFULLY AT.

>> Megan: I THINK YOU JUST ANSWERED MY QUESTION.

BUT AS MYRRIAH ALLUDED TO, THE BULLETIN OF ATOMIC SCIENTISTS MOVED THE DOOMSDAY CLOCK CLOSER TO MIDNIGHT THAN IT'S EVER BEEN.

IS THIS WHY?

>> Schlosser: WELL, I THINK IT'S A NUMBER OF REASONS.

PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS BEEN MAKING NUCLEAR THREATS, AND THE MEDIA THAT HE CONTROLS IN RUSSIA HAS BEEN CELEBRATING THE USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN A WAY THAT WE'VE NEVER SEEN BEFORE.

SO, THEY'VE CREATED COMPUTER-GENERATED IMAGES OF THE DESTRUCTION OF LONDON.

THEY'VE REALLY, REALLY EMPHASIZED NUCLEAR WEAPON AS THE SOURCE OF RUSSIAN NATIONAL POWER.

AND THAT'S EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.

>> Megan: ERIC SCHLOSSER, SMRITI KESHARI, MYRRIAH GOMEZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN AND TALKING ABOUT THIS AND FOR THE EXHIBIT.

>> Schlosser: THANK YOU.

>> Keshari: THANK YOU.

>> Gwyneth: THANKS, MEGAN.

>> Nash: THANKS TO MEGAN KAMERICK AS WELL AS THE CREW FROM 'THE BOMB' AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THE SHOW.

IF YOU WANT TO REWATCH OR SHARE ANY OF THE STORIES THAT WE BROUGHT TO YOU THIS WEEK, YOU CAN FIND EACH OF THE INTERVIEWS AND THE FULL EPISODE AT NMPBS.ORG OR ON THE NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS YOUTUBE CHANNEL.

FOR NEW MEXICO PBS, I'M NASH JONES.

WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK WITH A LOOK FROM MORE STORIES FROM ACROSS THE STATE THAT WE THINK DESERVE YOUR ATTENTION.

UNTIL THEN, STAY FOCUSED.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS IS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.