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[MOTIVATIONAL MUSIC] - Hi, everyone.

Steve Adubato.

We kick off the program with an important, compelling and timely, unfortunately, timely conversation about political violence with Shannon Hiller, who's executive director of Princeton University's Bridging Divides initiative.

Shannon, good to have you with us.

- Great to be here, Steve.

Thanks for having me.

- We'll put up the website for Princeton and for the Bridging Divides Initiative, what is the initiative and why is it so timely and important?

- Yeah, thanks, Steve.

We are part of the Policy school at Princeton, and we focus on tracking and mitigating political violence specifically here in the United States.

And as part of the policy school, we do that not just to understand the problem, but to help communities navigate these periods of heightened tension to hopefully address a lot of the underlying drivers that got us to this place, and ultimately to support the type of democracy where we can all belong.

- We're including this as part of our series, "Democracy in Danger."

The graphic will come up and it'd be hard to debate that democracy is not in danger.

That being said, I'm curious about this.

I was struck by, after the horrific murder, the assassination of Charlie Kirk, I thought that was an opportunity on some level to have a meaningful dialogue about political violence.

I also thought the same thing after January 6th.

I also thought the same thing after the attempts to assassinate President Trump as a candidate.

What's it gonna take for people to stop blaming the other side for the violence and stepping back and trying to understand it and what we can do about it?

Loaded question, I know.

- Well, it's a really important question, and frankly, it's one we hear throughout our research, so we hear it when we talk to local officials.

We hear the same question when we talk to communities trying to address the direct impacts of this climate of hostility, and we hear it from policymakers who are interested in solutions.

I think what you're expressing is that there's a lot of frustration around these missed opportunities.

I would add to your list.

I also thought the attacks on the legislators in Minnesota and the long list of targets there was another opportunity we missed to turn the tide.

So frankly, after the tragic murder of Charlie Kirk, one of the first things we said, both from our research and experience from those conversations, is we have to accept that this isn't an inevitable escalation.

- Say that, it is or it is- - It is not.

Yeah, it is not an inevitable escalation in part, you know, I started my career working in countries around the world addressing conflict, working on longer term peace building, and what we see is that no matter how bad it gets, there's always an opportunity to turn the corner.

So you're exactly right that these moments are each of them an opportunity and we have been failing to rise to the occasion collectively.

I'd be glad to talk about some of the things and some of the bright spots we have seen.

- What, bright spots?

- You know, especially I would say at the state and local level, we have seen some bright spots.

As I said, when we talk to leaders, community leaders, elected leaders, everyday people, there's exactly the same hunger for turning the tide and for pushing back on this climate.

They see the effects it's having on their community.

And so I think, we do see opportunities where, whether it's Governor Cox speaking up in the aftermath of the shooting in Utah or otherwise, where leaders rise to the moment, what we hear sort of the headwinds, on the other hand, are that the national discourse and the instinct to call for broad-based retribution against political opponents in these moments are really strong headwinds for a lot of those local and state efforts in many cases.

- There are a lot of causes, a lot of contributing factors, and I'm not a fan of people blaming any one person or any one organization or one political party, but I am curious about this, about the, I've been obsessed for years about the tone and tenor of our political dialogue.

From the research that you've done with your colleagues at Princeton, to what degree, if at all, has President Trump's public conversation, his rhetoric contributed to the environment, in which political violence, if not an inevitable outcome, should not be a shocking outcome and only complicate things, not just public rhetoric.

But after taking office in January of 2025, a blanket pardon to everyone involved in the effort, the insurrection effort of January 6th to attempt to overturn the election and many calling for the, quote, "hanging" of then-vice President Mike Pence, who as vice president had a constitutional responsibility to certify the outcome of the election.

I know it's a complicated question, but how much of this political violence or the environment of it falls at the feet of the president?

- I think it's a fair question.

Let me take those one part at a time please.

So you're asking, first, or, well, you asked second about sort of the specific pardons around January 6th.

- January 6th, yeah.

- I think it's particularly timely.

We're coming up on the fifth anniversary, it's hard to believe, of the January 6th attack on the capitol.

You know, I know you just had Andy Kim on the show too, and I think, you know, he is an excellent example of members of Congress trying to figure out a way to think about the legacy of that day that actually unifies instead of divides.

When we look at the impact of the blanket pardons, and I emphasize blanket because I think, you know, there may have been a legitimate case, - Absolutely.

- I've written about this before, to pardon some of this, the lower level offenders, including people who expressed remorse for getting caught up in that day.

But exactly as you highlighted, the president chose to not just pardon some of those lower level offenders who had been charged, but individuals who had violently attacked police, members, leaders of groups that had literally staged armed individuals in Virginia with a plan to invade the capital later in the day when it comes to Oathkeeper leaders and others.

And I think, that missed an opportunity, exactly as we were just talking about, and missed an opportunity to move us forward from that day.

- But did it also... Sorry for interrupting, Shannon.

Did it also send a message about when and under what circumstances political violence is okay?

- I think it was of a piece of the president and his advisor's tendency to see the data and the real trends around political violence with an explicitly partisan lens.

And so, I do think pardoning violent offenders who did not express remorse shows that type of behavior, if in support of the president's agenda will be allowed.

At the same time, many of those leaders that have been pardoned, have not gained huge followings since then, even though they're still active.

So, you know, as you said, kind of from the bigger picture, there's a lot of complex factors at play, but I do think it was a dangerous precedent to issue those blanket pardons.

- And it's not a comparable, nothing's comparable, when you're talking about these horrific events, but the assassination of Charlie Kirk, at least for me, and it's not for me to express an opinion, but there are questions to be asked of those who even engaged in conversations about, "Well, what was Charlie Kirk talking about?

What was his ideology?"

As if there was any correlation, any remotely credible or logical correlation between what he was saying publicly and the horrific assassination of him in a public situation that leaves two small children and his wife without their father and their husband.

But along those lines, complicated, multifactorial, if you will, are there any specific recommendations, Shannon, that you and your colleagues at the Bridging Divides initiative at Princeton University are putting out there that would help us move forward instead of just describing it or explaining it?

Please.

- Right.

Well, as you can imagine, some of our initiative focuses on understanding and creating trusted, timely information about what's actually happening.

But you're exactly right, that's not the full solution.

So we get asked this question from government officials, as I said, everyday people, community leaders.

And so I'll kind of answer it the highest level first.

I think we have to invest in resources and systems that help us with early prevention.

So it's right that we've been increasing spending on keeping people safe when they run for office, and that kind of reactive physical safety, that's a piece of the picture.

But we also have to be able to invest in the types of mental health resources and systems that help to identify risk very early on.

And so we have to invest in those types of systems and resources for early prevention.

- What role do you think we play, those of us in media, particularly public media?

Do we play a meaningful role?

And by the way, meaningful because those of us in media could be helpful or could fuel it.

Please.

- I think that's right... In any given moment, we say in a lot of different types of research, trusted voices, right?

And so different communities have different trusted voices.

You and the folks at PBS are speaking to a particular audience.

And so in a moment of conflict or attention, the ways that you deliver the news and analysis can make an impact on where we go in the sort of overall conflict environment.

And that's the same for trusted voices to any different community around the country.

And so I think we could get into, it's not our area of focus about how the changing media landscape has reduced... has created real challenges in trying to address that.

But, on the other side, we're often encouraged that in that real challenging media environment, people are turning increasingly to trusted voices in their own communities.

So sometimes those are folks in the media, sometimes that's faith leaders or others.

And so I think that's really the commonality of what we see that can help is people in positions of trust speaking up and speaking out.

You know, that's the other thing I'd say is we have to expect better from our leaders.

We have to expect them to be part of the solution.

And when they don't live up to that expectation, we have to hold them accountable.

And this is a democracy.

One of the main ways we hold leaders accountable is at the ballot box.

And I think we have to be more consistent in that, as a polity, if we wanna see change in how it impacts our civic space.

And maybe the last thing I'd say, and this was sort of implicit in some of your questions.

We have to, people all up and down, have to get involved.

If we don't wanna see inevitable escalation, go out and get training in deescalation or mediation, we have a resource on our website where we have trainers of all different kinds and all 50 states and DC.

These resources exist in our communities.

Talk to your neighbors about hard issues.

If we don't talk about these hard issues, they will just continue to plague us and be fodder for those who would prefer to divide us.

- To Shannon Hiller's point, also accept that different people have different points of view.

It doesn't mean they're your enemy, it doesn't mean there's a civil war going on in our country or that there makes any sense for that to happen.

Accept that different people have different points of view.

And could you imagine, as Shannon Hiller just said, have a conversation.

It's an original thought in the eyes or in the thoughts of many who believe... Nevermind.

Now that's what happens, Shannon, when I get on my soapbox about political violence and the need to have dialogue.

Shannon Hiller and her colleagues, I'm talking about it, they're doing important work at Princeton University's Bridging Divides initiative.

Shannon, thank you so much.

We'll continue the conversation.

- Thanks, Steve.

- You got it.

Stay with us, we'll right back.

- To watch more Think Tank with Steve Adubato, find us online and follow us on social media.

- Welcome back, folks.

We are honored to be speaking to State Senator Andrew Zwicker from the 16th Legislative District.

Senator, thank you for joining us.

- Thanks for having me, Steve.

- Senator, tell folks where the 16th district is.

- We're Central New Jersey.

Yes, of course it exists, but it's parts of Mercer, and Hunterdon, Somerset, and Middlesex counties, from South Brunswick, Princeton, all the way up in the south part of the district to Clinton in the northern part, 14 towns in total.

- Okay.

I was just saying to you before you came on the air that, on behalf of those of us connected to public media, even a not-for-profit media production company like ours affiliated with public broadcasting, we appreciate the fact that you and your colleague, Senator Burzichelli, and others, Senator Ruiz and others, held an oversight hearing.

The Senate Oversight Committee held a hearing, and a graphic will come up for a mini series we're doing, simply called "Media Matters."

Because media matters.

What was the goal, what is the goal that oversight committee, A, and B, what did you come away with, Senator?

- The goal of what we came away with worked perfectly.

The goal was to highlight the issue, because, as you know well, but people across, not just my district, but across the state know well, Public Broadcasting is a part of our daily lives.

It's a part of our childhood, certainly.

If we're of a certain age, we grew up with public media, public broadcasting, but it provides a unique resource, this show and others, that are focused in particular on New Jersey.

Unique programming that is, whether it's for children, whether it's for the arts, or whether it's specifically about New Jersey.

The financial pressures that it has been under are not unique to New Jersey.

It's happening nationally.

There's been federal pressures, state pressure.

The point of the oversight committee was to, and I'm the chair of the oversight committee, so I worked hand in hand with Senator Burzichelli in particular on this topic.

But he and I were talking that we could use a committee hearing to highlight the topic, number one, bring many of the experts in New Jersey to come and testify, and then be charged with, now is the time to now bring everyone back together after this oversight hearing to talk about the path forward.

How do we prepare public media in New Jersey for not one year, two years, but 10, 20 years into the future?

And frankly, that includes making sure that public media not just has a structure around it, but has the resources it needs to provide the programming that you do every single day.

- Well said, and let me also be clear that our not-for-profit media production company does not have a line item in the state budget, but we're very acutely aware of the role the state has played, and PS, the federal government as well as it relates to underwriting, supporting funding on the federal level for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which is what it is right now given the policy decisions made by the Trump administration and then the dollars that pass through to PBS.

That being said, there's gonna be a significant change on July 1st, 2026.

Our longtime partners at WNET, who for 15 years, without going into the details, governor Christie in 2011 opted to no longer fund what was then New Jersey network.

WNET stepped up and with our production company as part of that effort, they took over the responsibility for 15 years, and they've opted not to continue that, mostly for economic reasons.

And here's the question, Senator, what role do you believe, given the fact that state funding has also been cut to public media in the state, in addition to federal money, money's tight.

We got a new governor, governor Sherrill, how the heck can the case be made that the state has a role here?

- Well, Steve, I would say this, that since the Corporation of Public Broadcasting was created back in the late 60s, there has always been a role for the public and the private.

Public dollars with corporate or foundation dollars coming together to provide unique programming.

That's what the mission has been from the start.

It's what it continues to be.

I would argue that the programming that we're fighting to protect is part of the infrastructure of New Jersey.

We want to have educated and informed citizens, and public broadcasting fits into a role and a place that no one else does.

And because of that, I think it's beholden upon us as a state.

Right now, look, the federal government has taken a political position.

The pressure of the state was, in my opinion, inadvertent.

It wasn't based upon politics, but money was cut in the last state budget.

- Yes.

- We need to not just put that money back in, but figure out how we don't have to have, every single year, a fight for a shrinking piece of this pie.

The way to do that is you leverage state dollars with private and philanthropic dollars to create the ecosystem that is public broadcasting.

- One more quick question, then we'll move to a couple of other issues.

So people say, "Hey, wait, I don't need public broadcasting.

I get my information on my phone, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, I'm on TikTok, and they know what I want.

So they give me what I want.

They figured out the algorithm.

So what's this thing with public media?"

You say, Senator?

- Well, I say that social media, for all of its positives and its entertainment value, is not the place where we're gonna get news.

It's not the place we're gonna have an in-depth conversation on the future of public broadcasting in New Jersey.

Right?

And so.

- Hey, hold on, Senator, you're saying we wouldn't get a lot of clicks?

- I'm counting on you to get us the clicks, right?

Your popularity.

- Yeah, we don't wanna go there to try to get clicks, 'cause that's the wrong direction.

But go ahead, Senator.

- Right.

You know, I mean the reality is that social media wants us to have these ten second, 15 second little sound bites, and here comes AI talking robots.

I mean, I get it.

There's a place for that.

But that's not a place for news.

That's not a place for education.

That's a place for small bits of entertainment.

This is a unique, unique ecosystem, and it needs to be not just protected, but supported.

- Let's shift gears and thank you for indulging me talking about the future of public media.

Hopefully it didn't feel self-serving to folks because it's a much bigger issue.

- It is a big issue.

Yeah.

- Sorry for interrupting, this is a big issue.

By way of background, your professional background is not in politics, it's in what, Senator?

- Physics.

- Oh, that.

- Where I'm working on alternative advanced forms of nuclear energy when I'm not in the legislature.

- You too?

Me too!

No, I'm joking.

- Aren't we all?

- Stop, stop.

Hold on, do this for us.

In reading about the work you're doing, you're very involved in a legislative agenda, leading legislative agenda, community college to career pipeline.

What the heck does that mean?

- So the reality is that when you have some sort of degree, some sort of credential, now for some it's a college degree.

For others it's a two year community college degree.

Others may be getting a certification, maybe an apprentice going into the trades, but some sort of certification or degree leads to a good paying job that is going to take you into a career where you can support a family.

So the goal is now to increase the number of New Jerseyans significantly, from roughly where we are right now is I think close to 50%, towards 75% of all New Jerseyans having some sort of certification or degree.

That's good for our economy, it's good for families, it's good for people.

- This is another area where you've taken the lead.

Neurodiversity.

What is neurodiversity?

- Well, first thank you for just bringing this up.

So neurodiversity are individuals who, quite frankly, they think differently than you or I might.

Their brains are wired differently.

It could be autism, but it could be a range of other afflictions that, you know, in the end is just how they think through different processes.

And the goal of this package of legislation that you're referencing is to do everything we can to ensure that neurodiverse individuals have opportunities to join the workforce, have opportunities to be in a place that is supportive of whatever environment that they may need.

Some folks have auditory issues, so they may need some accommodations for their auditory issues, but neurodiverse folks are highly, highly skilled and just need opportunities like everybody else.

And what we found, and research has shown, is that when it comes to things like AI, when it comes to some of the fields under the umbrella of STEM, science technology, neurodiverse individuals are leading the pack.

And so this package of bills is to sort of level the playing field and ensure that they can be productive members of New Jersey's economy.

- Well said, got a minute and a half left.

A new governor is taking office.

Governor Mikie Sherrill.

What would you say, this is an unfair question, top two or three agenda items she should focus on together with the state legislature, Senator Zwicker?

- Yeah, number one, overall, we see this everywhere is affordability.

But in particular, and she's highlighted it, energy affordability.

We need a short, medium, and long-term plan so that we have reliable energy, but we have affordable energy.

That's number one.

Number two I would say is we need a strong emphasis on ensuring we have a robust public higher education system.

Governor Murphy worked hard on our K through 12 system.

- Right.

- I would urge her to focus on our publics.

Our two and four year publics are amazing institutions, but they need some focus over the next few years.

- Number three?

- What did I say?

Higher education.

Oh, housing.

Number three has gotta be housing.

I've got, you know, 20 something year old kids, they can't afford to buy a house right now.

We've gotta do something about what I would say, we call it affordable housing, but really it's housing that is affordable, and we all want the American dream of buying a house.

We gotta figure out how we can ensure that young people can do that as well.

- Absolutely.

Senator Andrew Zwicker from the 16th legislative district is also the chair of the Senate Oversight Committee doing important work on the future of public media.

And you heard him talk about a range of other issues.

Senator, I cannot thank you enough for joining us.

We look forward to future conversations.

- Thanks for having me, Steve.

- You got it, I'm Steve Adubado, that's Senator Zwicker.

We'll see you next time.

- [Narrator] Think Tank with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by The New Jersey Education Association.

Community FoodBank of New Jersey.

IBEW Local 102.

NJ Best, New Jersey’s five-two-nine college savings plan.

Hackensack Meridian Health.

New Jersey Board of Public Utilities.

The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey.

And by South Jersey Industries.

Promotional support provided by ROI-NJ.

And by NJ.Com.

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