(gentle music) - I'm Norm Silverstein.

Thanks for joining us.

We're in good company today with Shawn Dunwoody.

You've seen his art around Rochester, and today you get to meet the artist.

A self-described creative force for change, Shawn has used his talents to create public arts projects focused on uplifting the communities he works with.

Shawn is a native Rochesterian.

He grew up in the Marketview Heights neighborhood.

He's focused his life's work on visual storytelling collaboratively painting murals that communicate powerful ideas.

You probably saw his street art sharing messages of safety during the pandemic, or his most recent work, amplifying the efforts of the Black Lives Matter movement.

A catalyst for change, Shawn has used his ability to connect with others to serve in a number of advisory roles, while helping to advance the cultural and economic wellbeing of the Finger Lakes region.

Shawn is also bringing much needed attention to areas of critical need in many city neighborhoods.

Referred to as a visionary, he's been voted best local artist, best muralist, and best art exhibit in 2020 by City News.

Shawn excels at putting his finger on the pulse of the Rochester community.

He's always looking ahead to consider what might be possible, especially if we all work together.

We're pleased to welcome Shawn Dunwoody here today as he reflects on how his work has brought meaning to his life and the lives of so many others.

He will also share how public art is an important medium for telling the stories of our times.

Shawn, thank you so much for being here.

- Oh, it's great to be here, Norm.

Thank you.

I wanna actually take the, what it is that you just, (laughs) you just said.

That's amazing.

I was like, "Wow, that sounds great."

Thank you so very much for having me here.

- Well, you've received a lot of recognition lately for the work you're doing, and I wanna know, what has this meant to you in this time to get this kind of recognition?

- Ooh, okay.

What does it mean to get this recognition?

I really want it to be about others.

It's really not about me.

It's not about what I'm doing, how cool someone may think I am, or how many walls I've put paint onto.

I want it to really about the attention of the people and the causes that are behind what's being created.

Listen to what's happening behind being created.

It's not about my show, it's about those voices that carry on and will carry on.

That's really what I want people to recognize, that there is a movement surging.

So listen to it.

Pay attention.

It's not about me.

I'm just a smoke screen right here.

Pay attention to what's happening in the communities, what's happening to the hearts of the people.

And that's really where I would like to see recognition going.

And I try to deflect it over there as much as I can, but it does feel good.

Cool sometimes to have the recognition.

I can't deny, you know, you gotta feed your ego, but all in all, I want others to be recognized and understand their role in this world.

(laughs) - You know what, (chuckles) I've interviewed a lot of people for this show, but a lot of times people say, "Well, I was born in South Carolina."

I mean, it's rare.

It really actually is rare that someone says, "Well, I was born here in Rochester in Marketview Heights."

So you've come a long way.

- Yeah.

- For a kid from the city, but you've also had overcome a lot.

Are you comfortable sharing a little bit of what you've had to do to get to the position you're in today?

- Yes, I grew up in Marketview Heights on Ritz Street actually, where my parents, prior to that, they owned a record store called The Rat Hole, and everyone would come there and get records and stuff.

But this later on in life, so it's still part, it's still in The Crescent, Les Crescent as they call it.

You know, now it's one of the more poorest neighborhoods in the area.

At its time years ago it wasn't.

And from that, I've spent a lot of time in The Crescent, you know, from there to the 14621 neighborhood.

And, you know, you grow up single parent, not too much going on as far as finances in the home.

But I always wanted to be an artist or creator, or, you know, I always wanted to be a superhero.

God's honest truth, I always wanted to be a superhero.

One of my favorite superheroes is Spider-Man.

So I always wanted to, you know, swing from, you know, spiderwebs and do all those things.

But I found my connection from drawing in comic books and all those things.

One story I have to tell, I was like five years old, and there was this cassette tape, you know, well, folks know cassettes.

So I had this cassette tape and I would fill it up with dead spiders that you find on the window sill, because I wanted to be Spider-Man.

So I figured if I got a sewing needle outta my mother's kit, and I had a cord that was cut.

And if I stick this into the wall socket and electrify this blood and then poke myself, I'll be Spider-Man, right?

Oh, luckily my mom caught me like, "Whatcha you doing, boy?"

And so I realized from that point on, I had to figure out another way to be a superhero.

So in life I was always connected to art and drawing and always wanted to do those things.

But when you're sometimes in a community or in a neighborhood where no one's doing that, it's hard to really talk about it and say, "This is what I wanna do."

And it doesn't fit the mold of everybody else that's around you.

And it sounds a bit ridiculous.

It's like, okay, so you're gonna starve to death, so you wanna be an artist.

What does that mean?

You're not gonna make any money.

You can't do this.

Later on in life, you know, going to high school, I got tossed out of two high schools.

At the age of, you know, 18, I'm having my first child.

By the time I'm 21, I got three kids, no money, no education, part of a social service system.

- Yeah, but you did have three men who believed in you, right?

- (laughs) Yes.

That's right.

That's right.

That's right.

And that's part of the journey.

I have these sort of connection points.

I call 'em my three fathers.

So, you know, in the system, I expressed I wanted to do what I do today.

And one of the first individuals that helped me understand the strength of being a black man was actually Mr. Kelvin Farewell.

And he made me understand the strength of my African ancestry and who I am, and be strong as a black man in this America that may not want you to be that strong.

Another person was a pastor, Louis Hernandez, who taught me about a spiritual path, how you can be connected to all, how things can be really be connected to your heart.

And we're all connected and we're all God's creatures or we're all part of the universe.

And another mentor was artist Joe Hendrick.

And he showed me that art can actually be a vehicle and a way to express yourself, and make connections in this world.

- Well, you know, what was interesting to me was you become successful in more of the traditional gallery scene, and then you decide that you want to be involved and you wanna do public art.

So something must have clicked.

- Yes, oh, yeah.

I'll tell you, something clicked.

So, you know, time goes on.

I discover that art is cool, you know, I'm doing assemblage, you know, and I'm telling the stories and I'm like, oh yeah, this is great.

I'm the artist sipping wine.

I think I'm cool, you know, giving the lectures.

And I was addressing an audience at a university about my work.

And I looked at the audience and I said, "Okay."

It was all Caucasian audience.

And I said, "The messages I'm talking about may be beneficial, but I don't think they're actually gonna do anything with it."

And it's just nice art.

So I said, "I've missed my path."

So I stopped the gallery work, stopped that sort of lecture circuit, and I said, "I have to go back.

I have to go back to my neighborhood."

I said, "I need to be what I wanted to see when I was 15."

As I said earlier, there was no examples of someone that showed I could actually do that.

So that was actually one of my points where I realized I've gotta go back and be that African American male on the block helping to build his own community through art.

- Well, that must have been tough.

I mean, you, you go back to the neighborhood and, you know, what was there that kept you going?

- It's the heart of the people.

I mean, there's a creative culture in the neighborhood.

I mean, most people think that, you know, the hood, is hood.

But there's a lot of creativity that happens in the midst of some stretched or non-stretched resources or lack thereof.

You have to get very creative.

And so there's always this great flow of energy from people from the block to the bench, to the field.

Everybody you're doing what they gotta do.

And it's a great way to get the energy, and get in contact and connection with people.

And that spirit drives me to keep going on the streets and doing something.

- It's also, what I heard was that you also reminded people that a lot of what we see as art today comes from black culture, and it's been kind of appropriated by the European white... - Yeah, (laughs) go ahead and say it.

I know, I know it's a tongue twister sometimes for (laughs) European white males to say.

But yes, yes, you can see that within the culture.

I mean, as I said, when you have an, I'm not gonna say oppression drives creativity, but when you've put people in a certain situation it gives them a creative, they have to find a creative outlet.

So if we look at jazz, America's music, it was born of the people of African descent.

So it was here, it was created, you're trying to create an American music.

And within the lack of resources created a movement of music that's all over the world.

We can see this again, when we look at hip hop culture, whether, whether it be from fashion, dance, to art, graffiti, to the music.

Hip hop culture has traveled the world.

When everyone thought it was going to be a fad like disco, there's people that are sagging their pants and rapping it in Dubai and in Japan and in Ireland.

So, and there's spray painting walls in the UK and in Australia.

So this culture, this American culture that keeps traveling around the world, that then becomes, you know, vanilla iced and, you know, Macklemore is actually comes from the brown people of America.

- You also use words in your murals.

And that was something that I kind of, I didn't realize it until I read about it, but although I've seen your work, I never put the two and two together.

Can you tell me a little bit about what you're trying to accomplish?

'Cause I know there's a reason for it.

- Okay, yes.

A lot of times in public art, there are images that are used.

And when I started to venture out to do this, I realized images can change in the neighborhood because there are some murals I've seen where people have, you know, blackened out their teeth or whatever, or marked over them.

But I felt the English language hasn't changed in, well, it's had some tweaks for the past 400 years.

So why don't I use words?

And I took a tick from advertisers, because when you go to any Bodega Corner store or billboard in the hood, they're advertising to you, hot subs, cold beer, cigarettes, lotto, EBT.

I'm not knocking anybody who engages in any of those things, I do, but so (laughs) I'm just saying, I realize if advertisers have that power over us with the words that they say to us, they show us every day where they've got us for four seconds.

So I realize if I can use that same approach, I have an individual for about four seconds to take in that message.

And so that's where I wanted to use words.

And my first approach at that was actually painting the front of stores, which are in most cases, across from a bus stop.

So people are sitting there for 15 minutes.

So you can actually infuse something a little stronger than just, this is what my neighborhood's about, it's about beer, cigarettes, and lottery.

- Well, you also used words when you painted the Black Lives Matter mural on Court Street, and then of course, the community chalk mural at MLK Park.

And I know you also did the piano keys down across from the Eastman Theater, and I know there's a little story behind the Black Lives Matter mural.

Are you willing to share that with me today?

- Oh, yes.

- The color of the words and where you put it.

- Okay, I'll go through.

Yes, I'll tell this story.

So once the first Black Lives Matter was painted in Washington, I got a call from the city and they're like, "Hey, can we do this?"

And I'm like, "Yeah, let's do it."

We can do it this weekend.

So it was, they called me on a Monday or Tuesday, I can't remember.

And we were gonna do it that weekend.

So the original plan was to do it on Main Street over the Genesee River.

And so I called in to my friends over at Sherwin Williams, and I'm like, "Hey, we're doing this on the street.

Can I get some yellow paint?

And you know, I'm gonna need about 100 gallons of yellow paint."

- (laughs) 100 gallons.

- Yes.

And they're like, we don't have enough of that in the area at all to give you that.

And so they started calling around, even as far as Buffalo, there wasn't enough yellow base to make 100 gallons of yellow, bright yellow paint.

And so I was like, "Okay, well, can I get green?"

They're like, "We need the same base to do that."

And I thought, okay, we know that there, we know there's this Blue Lives Matter, and the Black Lives Matter.

Black lives is about one's racial identity.

I'm always gonna be black.

I can't retire from being black.

I was born being black.

Then you have your Blue Lives Matter movement.

I understand you have to, I have respect for people's lives, I have respect for people.

But this is a position you can leave and retire from.

You weren't born blue.

I was born black.

So I had to play with the idea of the only color I could get enough of was blue.

Oh, what am I gonna do?

And I knew I would catch some flack about it, but, you know, when you rest your mind, and you rest your spirit, sometimes things come to you.

So it came to me and I realized, you know, ancient Kemet, as some folks may know is Egypt.

Ancient Kemet used blue to depict their Nile.

And blue was a very valuable, valuable color to use in ancient Kemet.

So I said, this connects us to ancient Kemet, to our ancient African ancestry.

And it also flows our water, our Genesee River flows south to north just as the Nile does.

So I said, this will make a, I can make this connection.

And then it was like we were put on hold and told to stop, we're not doing it.

And I was like, "Uh."

They were like, "Well."

I was like, "If you didn't want us to do it, I could of had more time to plan and could have painted it yellow."

But then we moved it to Court Street, which I was bothered by.

I was like, "Why are we moving it to Court Street?"

But then once we got there, I realized that it made sense.

It was where everyone was gathering for the protests, and also it was being directed at some individuals that were in that particular station, in that building who were on the radio, who were just fired maybe a day or two before we painted the ground.

So it makes sense.

So we got out there and we made it happen.

I did catch some slack, and feedback from people from it being blue.

I mean, it kind of hurt, but because at that point I'm like, "I am a black life."

And I was out there until three o'clock in the morning to make sure those lines were straight.

And now you wanna beat me up because of a color.

So just chill a minute.

Let's work together.

- Yeah.

That got a lot of attention, didn't it?

I mean, from outside of the Rochester area.

It was... - Yes, it did, it did get a lot of attention, because people, because the way the Black Lives Matter color is they were going was with the yellow, and they're like, "This guy's doing blue."

So everybody's like, is he secretly trying to support the Blue Lives Matter?

Is he making, there were all these different connections.

And it was, am I making a political statement?

Am I in cahoots with city officials?

There was whole bunch of drama.

- What about the "Empire Strikes Back?"

I mean, I'm into "Star Wars" too, but how did that come about?

- Okay, I'll go back to the, that Black Lives Matter that we painted on the street.

I said, "We can do that, but we have to do more."

And I proposed to the city that we paint the entire inside of Martin Luther King Junior Park black.

Reason being is because when people are gathered there, there's an energy, and protests are always based in art.

You know, you've got your creative protest signs.

You've got a march, you've got a song, you've got some poetry, you've got a dance that's happening.

So all your protests are based in art.

So I felt, you know, when people have their signs, and they have their chants, and they're marching, and they're doing everything, there's a certain amount of energy that's there.

And when people leave, when it dissipates and it's over and the signs are taken away, there has to be a way to retain that energy.

And so being that the bowl of MLK Park is an amphitheater where they used to have concerts, I felt why not help to amplify those voices in that bowl?

And so I took to painting the inside of the bowl black.

I put a call out.

First day, predominantly African American women came out and helped me paint those walls black.

And then two days later, we did the ground, and the next morning I put out some chalk and I said, "Here it is.

Say what you need to say within this amphitheater."

Within a few hours it was filled.

And one of the more beautiful things about it is that what else it has become.

Okay, after the rains, it's gone.

But then it miraculously comes back again.

I have yet to put chalk there since the first two days.

But there's always chalk there for someone to work with or someone to use.

It's now become the people space, people document what people are saying.

I felt it was a good way to connect with those individuals who might not go to the rallies, or who might be afraid to go to the rallies, or might need a better understanding from an outside view to actually read what is said and what's going on down there.

- Well, this was a tough time to get the community involved.

I mean, people, nobody seemed to trust anyone.

How did you gain the trust of the folks to come down there and work with you?

- That's a good question.

I don't know.

(laughs) A lot of times, it's just you put it out there, and some people can understand the vision behind it.

So those that, like I said, the first day, those women came out with their children, grandchildren, they understood the vision, they understood the power of amplifying the voice of those who are not represented or heard to give them a platform.

And I think that's what people, people trusted themselves in it.

They didn't have to trust me.

They trusted that themselves were part of the process in shaping something that people will always have a connection point to.

- You know, I loved the piano keys, and hated the fact that we didn't have the jazz festival this year.

Do you see a future for murals like that, that connect to the local community?

- Yes.

Well, yeah, that was a great endeavor.

I have to also thank my partner on that one, Richard Glaser.

We were moving forward, we have this concept of painting these piano keys, which was more connected to just the music's hub that's happening with Eastman.

We feel we've got some funders on board, we're ready to go and roll.

And then there were places and people that were like, "No, we don't want you to do this."

And it literally, all we needed was you're okay just to close down the street.

I mean, it's the city's property.

The city was on board with it, so there was a lot of this and that.

So the project was not actually going to happen until they understood what it could mean.

And so we got out there one morning, I called out to volunteers.

I said, "If you wanna come join, come on out."

So there were about 80 volunteers that showed up that day.

I told people what to do and they did it.

I didn't actually pick up a brush or anything at all.

So the community actually did it.

All of strangers from literally people that were 8 to 83 showed up to paint that.

And after it was done, we took our picture.

Two days later, it's in the Washington Post, which gave that attention, which then draws attention to the Jazz Fest.

And then those folks and institutions that didn't want us to do it, were quite happy that it was done, and started using that crosswalk in a lot of what they were doing.

So sometimes it takes a little bit of push and drive to get something accomplished, because it, I always think about art in the afterlife, not in the moment, but what does it do when you're not there?

When I step away from one of these walls or the ground, it has to do something.

And it actually became a destination during the jazz festival.

People were going there to take pictures on it, dance on it, whatever they were doing.

It became a second attraction outside of Jazz Fest.

So it was the, once again, it became the people's place.

- Yeah, I bumped into Richard at the piano keys not that long ago, and he told me the whole story, and of course wanted me to cover it more with WXXI.

So you just got your time for- - There we go.

(laughs) - for the piano keys.

And that was a great, that was fascinating.

You know, when I first saw that, I was like, "We should have paid more attention to this."

(Shawn laughs) You know, I find it interesting that with all the great work you're doing, you find time to be on a bunch of like, economic development committees.

And one of them was the, I guess the group that was overseeing the skate park.

- The Roc the Riverway Committee.

- Yeah, the Roc the Riverway.

And that you found that some of the people on the committee didn't think that skating was something that black people did.

It was...(chuckles) Was that really true?

- Yes, yes, yes.

There was, we had our closed room discussion.

And so it was not, it was never, when we went to the communities and spoke to people and we got community input, and shout out to Rock City Skatepark, they've been at it for 10 plus years.

Actually, their first fundraiser I held in my gallery 10 plus years ago.

And so they've always been at it, and it was not actually part of the Roc the Riverway plan.

And we sat down at our last decision day, we've already collected information.

I said, "We've gotta add this to this."

Some folks felt it wasn't safe.

Some folks felt it wasn't that, you know, poor people don't skate or black people don't skate.

And I'm like, "Look, man, what are you talking about?

It's one of the more connected sports that we could have.

I mean, there's people skating in Pittsburgh, there's people skating on Portland, there's people skating on Joseph.

It's one of the things that'll bring people together.

Do you understand that the skate culture is just a culture."

And so after, you know back and forth, and everyone's starting to understand, okay, maybe this is something that self programming space will be valuable to downtown, and will bring different people together.

And now in a couple of weeks they're gonna have a ribbon cutting, and it's gonna be one of the first things done part of Roc the Riverway that will bring people together and bring people from outside of Rochester and outside of the county here to engage in what downtown life is about.

- Yeah, I've heard from people that this got done because you were in the room where it happened, like they said in Hamilton.

Did you feel that way at times?

- Yes.

I have to say that.

And so every time I see Bob Duffy, he's always like, "Skate park."

Because it literally was not in the plan.

And I'm not gonna say I had to fight, but I had to push to make sure that happened because it was not gonna happen.

And so the first person to really get on board, and help it was Commissioner Norman Jones.

And he is like, "I see where you're coming from."

He's like, "All right, let's do it.

Let's fund it."

And then everyone around the table felt it was a good decision and move.

So part of people asked, you know, is it, you know, you're always on these committees or whatever, but you have to be in the room to make these decisions.

You know, you have to be there, you have to try and speak for the voice of, not for the people, but with the people.

And so I try to do these things so that eventually other people fill those spots, and can help shape the community and the world at which we live in.

- I mean, do you see some change now where you're not always the only black person in the room?

- Yes, yes.

I see that.

I don't want to be the token all the time.

You can't be that all the time.

And so it's a good thing that there are stronger audiences, and I mean stronger people and voices out there, like Free People Rochester are great folks.

I mean, you've got great voices and great visionaries that are rising up, and that will lead this community into new directions where I think Rochester doesn't quite understand and may be apprehensive to go, but it's gonna be a fantastic ride.

- Do you have some thoughts about where the city's going?

I mean, you're so involved.

- Wow.

- And these are tough times.

- (laughs) Yes.

- I mean, not just one thing.

I've never seen everything come together like this.

Not always in a good way.

Do you have something that makes you optimistic about the future?

(Shawn sighs) - Yeah, this is a turbulent season here in Rochester, and it's been a turbulent time across the world, across the country.

And I think it was important for that to happen.

I think we didn't have the opportunity to see ourselves.

We didn't have a breath moment to look in the mirror and see actually who we are.

And I think this has happened in our country.

This happened in the world.

This has happened here in Rochester.

And I feel as if I'm very optimistic.

I mean, as I said earlier, if you've got these younger voices that are coming through, we have some of our elders, as well who are listening, and working along with these younger voices.

And it's part of Rochester's heart.

We came here because of the, everyone came here because of the falls, the native folks, the indigenous people, those who wanted to settle here.

It has life energy.

It's always turning, always changing, always new.

And so that energy is at the heart of Rochester.

It's always changing, always new, always flowing, always going, always flowing.

And I'm optimistic that even though there's a rough rapid that is happening right now, that falls energy, that momentum will bring us to a new level.

We have to actually take a leap.

We're going to take a leap, not sudden steps.

If we look at, you know, parts in history, there's always this moment in time where it takes a leap.

And we're at that point where we're ready to spring forward, we're being compressed and we're being compressed, but it's only a matter of time before we actually leap.

And we will be a brighter and better Rochester.

And I'm optimistic because I can see it in the people under these trying times.

- I was surprised to find out you're doing so much work out of state, I guess that your reputation is now really creating opportunities for you around the country.

That's gotta be brand new and that must feel pretty good.

- Oh yeah, it does feel good.

It does feel good.

I mean, my work has brought me to places like Poland to Brazil.

I was just in Indiana painting.

I'm supposed to be in Nebraska, but that's not gonna happen due to Covid.

And I was supposed to be in Ireland, and in Minsk, and in Lithuania this year.

But all those got canceled.

But it was actually a way to work with communities.

The same thing I do here to create a message of connectivity.

So yeah, it does feel, I, well, I don't want, it feels cool.

I'll say sometimes it feels cool, but I'm still this messed up, dude that I am, you know, I'm not gonna sit here and lie, and think I'm cool and all swanky.

But it's just, it is sometimes neat when, you know, when you're in another state, and then Forbes writes about you being in another state.

So you're like, "All right, I can ride with that.

I'll take Forbes."

- What do you see for the future of arts and culture in Rochester?

I mean, we always talk about how important it is and how, you know, it's not appreciated, but it really is one of the big drivers for our community.

And now with the COVID-19, it's like people are staying home.

We can't open theaters.

These are, you know, very difficult times.

- Yes, it is a difficult time for the arts in Rochester, across the country.

My opinion, I think, sometimes we have to look, we have to look at different avenues or different ways that arts are being used or appreciated, and incorporate them and bring them into together with everyone.

One of the things I talk about a lot is, you know, you said, you know, theaters aren't open, things aren't happening.

Well now due to Covid, neither are churches, but every Sunday morning you can always get a free concert, a poetry, and some sort of dance if you stop into any neighborhood church.

And so there's always arts and cultural happening in creative urban areas where people are.

And I think we have that time once again to look in the mirror and say, "Have we really connected?

Have we really invested in these arts and cultures that are not represented by predominantly Caucasian males?"

Let's look at everyone else and see what they're doing.

What are some women creatives doing?

What are artists of color doing?

Let's really understand what's going on and bring that together.

And once again, it's not about bringing people to the table, it's about giving people resources to build their own table.

And you can actually have a cross table conversation from there.

And I think that's what the arts in Rochester really needs to look at now is who are those voices that are still creating or are reaching people and how are they doing that?

And maybe that's a model that arts in Rochester or some of these institutions might wanna take a gander at.

- Shawn you do some great work, and you bring a lot of good attention to the city too, and to the movements here.

So thank you.

And thank you for joining me today on "Norm & Company."

Hope we can do it again sometime.

- Thank you, Norm.

It was great to be part of your company.

- Thanks and thank you for watching.

You can also watch this episode and past shows online at wxxxi.org.

And we'll see you next time on "Norm & Company."

(gentle music) (gentle music continues) (bright music)