>> Hi.

I'm Louis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur.

And welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds and leaders in the world to inspire you to live your best life today.

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Shefali, family dynamics and personal development expert, best-selling author, and clinical psychologist.

Today, she teaches us how to break free from your past and embrace who you really are, how to get to the root cause of the issues in your relationships, and how to get better at setting boundaries in your life.

I'm so glad you're here today.

Let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪ ♪ When something horrific happens to a woman... >> Yes.

>> And they've got to go through -- I mean, man or woman, and they've got to go through a process of healing, some of these things might take a while to heal, though.

It might take years, right?

>> Decades.

>> Decades.

If something really tragic happens -- >> In your childhood.

>> Exactly.

So how does someone not shame themselves for taking a longer time to let go and deal with the process that it takes for them?

The grieving process.

The pain process.

>> Right.

>> What is a timeline that we should be thinking of on how we can reclaim that power?

>> All my work is on conscious parenting for a reason, because the pain and trauma inflicted by our parents or those early years takes a lifetime.

That's what I do for a living, is I help people uncover how they're replaying the same patterns of the trauma bonds from childhood.

This is our whole life is to recover from the trauma.

>> What was the main trauma for you that you still work through?

>> The main trauma was a pervading sense of unworthiness, which came from growing up in a very patriarchal culture.

>> You never felt worthy.

>> I never felt good enough.

I was always looking for validation from the men in my life or my achievement or my title, my role.

"I'll be the best mother.

I'll be the best wife."

It was only in my mid-40s when my kids -- >> Two years ago?

>> Just two years ago.

When my kid really grew up, that I began to look at myself because I'd finished checking off like half the list.

>> Went to the great school, got the doctorate, wrote the books, The New York Times, Oprah, all these things.

>> Kid is grown up.

Now who am I?

And I realized that I had been living a false self because the bedrock was unworthiness.

And I didn't even know it.

>> Until recently.

>> Until recently.

Until I had a huge epiphany, yes.

Yeah.

>> So who are you?

>> So now I'm evolving.

And that's why, to your question, there is no timeline.

It's a process.

You will be asleep till you wake up, and you often don't know you're asleep till you have some dramatic moment, till you have some epiphany.

You know, so I was on this spiritual path, growing.

And then one day I grew out of my marriage, and that's when -- that was my moment of trauma.

>> You were in the marriage.

>> I was fine.

>> And you grew out.

You were like, "This is no longer for me.

>> Yes.

And then everything looked unfamiliar.

And I was so identified with that marriage.

I was so identified with that idea of family.

But I was no longer that person who entered the marriage.

And I had no intention of leaving for years, 25 years.

So it was traumatic for me.

Why?

Not just because it was an interpersonal dynamic, but because culture has put so much pressure on us women to be nice and don't make anyone upset and don't end the marriage, you know, don't break up -- >> Work through it.

>> Work, sacrifice.

>> Isn't there a part of working through challenges and not, you know, it's like, okay, if there's a challenge, it doesn't mean you should end the relationship.

>> No, it doesn't.

It took me another two years after my epiphany to really decide.

>> To work through it and figure it out.

>> I stayed.

I worked through it.

You must, because it's not the other person.

It's what's coming up for you.

And until you heal those wounds, you carry the same baggage to the next relationship.

>> What was the thing that came up for you?

>> For me, it was that I was the epitome of the self-sacrificial good girl, and I was here to save other people.

So after 25 years of playing this role, I burnt out, and I had evolved enough to understand my pattern that I am doing this because I'm so scared to be out of the relationship.

I had become enmeshed and codependent in the relationship, so it was all me.

The other person was just playing the role I put them to play.

>> Right.

>> You know, "You make sure you're really 'X, Y, Z' so that I can feel the same way I felt all my life."

You know, we recruit people so that we can play the same emotional role we've played in childhood.

>> Until what?

Until when?

>> Until we do all this inner work to evolve.

So when I did all this work and it kind of collided with the marriage, now is the next confrontation of now what do you do, right?

I always say in my courses, you know, all your relationships may break up because now you're a new you.

Now is another path of a dark tunnel.

Now you have to go through no-woman's land as you redefine who you are, right?

Now you're a whole new being.

But people shouldn't be afraid of this.

This is a natural process of evolution of the soul.

We must evolve, yes.

But culture has told us to stay scared, to stay stagnant, keep appearances up, keep your relationship for longevity, not for growth.

You know, marriage follows a longevity model, right?

>> You're only successful if you're together for decades.

>> The goal is you stay -- it's a longevity-based model, not a growth-based model.

>> You were married for how long?

>> 20 -- I was with the same person for 25 years.

>> Wow.

>> So for me, it was -- it's not easy to just leave, but we both needed to grow.

And once we can decide as a couple that this is not working for our growth, we could release each other.

Some do it more beautifully, some don't, right?

Yeah.

>> But we don't wait for permission.

We have to follow our own North Star of growth and do what feels right for us after working through the process.

>> So what's it look like to own how you are part of it so that you don't stay in victim -- you say victim consciousness?

>> Yes.

>> What does that look like?

>> So the most important spiritual lesson I try to pass on to all my clients and all women is you are definitely a victim of the patriarchy.

We never forget that.

But within the patriarchy, you are now a victim of your own oppression.

Victim consciousness is where you keep the consciousness of the oppressor, but make it your own.

So now you objectify yourself.

>> So give me an example.

What's that look like for someone today?

>> Oh, my goodness.

Across the board.

So if you just take our mental attitude, the culture has told us to be quiet, be kind, be sweet, be polite, and don't be powerful or real.

So now if a man molests us and it's a public space, that's why people in the #MeToo movement had such a hard time coming out, because the culture has told us, so now we do it to ourselves.

"Don't say anything.

Pretend it didn't occur.

Deny it."

Or if our child -- You know how many clients, women, I have whose children are being abused, but they turn the other cheek because they can't disrupt the family system?

So this is how we do it to our children now.

We do it to ourselves.

Okay, take another aspect of our physical looks.

You know, we look in the mirror and we see now all the faults that we believe culture has told us we should not have.

So we objectify ourselves.

You know, no one is a greater -- >> Critic than ourselves, yeah.

>> Critic than ourselves.

And for women and beauty, because we've been so objectified, we do it to ourselves.

It's a daily onslaught.

So we've taken what culture has done and we've made it our own.

>> So how do we start to identify the traumas of the past so that we can actually start to heal them?

>> So there's two pathways.

One is voluntarily or involuntarily.

>> Okay.

>> So very few people do it voluntarily.

You know, who -- >> They're just like, "What do I want to think about today?

Let me think about my --" >> "Let me improve my life and let me undo my patterns, right?"

So I went on a spiritual quest when I was 21.

Very unusual, right?

I was so fascinated by self-work that I knew that was my path.

So I entered it without trauma necessarily.

So the involuntary way is how most people enter.

>> An event occurs that's traumatic and "This doesn't work.

I'm going to break down."

>> They hit rock bottom.

>> Yes.

>> So you have to really hit rock bottom.

>> Right.

>> So what does that mean?

And as a therapist, I want rock bottom for my clients.

>> Yes.

>> Why?

>> That's the only way to go to the next step.

>> Yes.

Yes.

>> If things are 80% good, that's the worst place to be.

>> That's the worst place.

>> The worst place.

It's like, "Things are good right now.

They're okay."

That's the worst because you can't get out of that.

>> You're complacent.

>> I'd rather be everything falling apart because then at least I'm like, "Okay, this keeps happening.

I need to figure out a new way of being."

>> Right.

So what you're saying by that is that when we say rock bottom, what is really hitting rock bottom is our ego, our false self.

>> Yes.

>> All the ways we were pretending don't work anymore.

What a beautiful gift that is.

That's why I call it the gift of the rock bottom.

Because when you get to that place, most people freak out.

But therapists are like, "Come to me, come to me."

>> Right, right.

>> Because this is your portal, because you're finally without your defenses.

The athlete doesn't work anymore.

The comedian doesn't work anymore.

Charmer doesn't work anymore.

>> Yeah.

>> Pretty girl doesn't work.

Nothing's working.

How amazing.

Now you get to go deep to figure out who you are without those roles or labels.

>> And a lot of people try to cling on to them as long as they can.

>> Yes.

Yes.

>> Because it's scary.

>> They're so scared.

>> It's scary.

>> Scary.

>> So what about the voluntarily?

It's hard to get there, right?

>> Voluntarily, it's somebody who -- >> It's hard to be like, "Let me improve myself today."

>> Existential philosophers.

You know, I was like that kind of kid, like, I was always seeking.

So I went for Vipassana meditation when I was 21 because I wanted to find out another meaning to this madness.

I was like -- I knew this was mad and I was, "This can't be all of it."

I needed to go on a discovery of myself, so I put myself in that position.

But it's not typical.

>> Yeah.

>> You know why?

Because we're in a rat race.

You know, we're on this conveyor belt just chugging along.

>> Yes.

>> Checking off the prescription list.

Our parents have brainwashed us.

Culture has brainwashed us.

We're so scared to get off the conveyor belt, you know?

We're like, "Let me just stay on."

>> Because we're going to upset our parents or our family, our peers or whatever.

>> You know, everybody.

The most daunting, practical thing that happened to me when I got married -- when I was getting divorced was "How am I going to tell people," you know?

And then I realized, "Is that my problem?

Like, other people?"

And I realized, yes, other people is our problem because we're so tethered to what other people think, other people's opinions.

And I realized I don't owe anybody any information about my journey until it happens organically.

So I really told people only when it happened organically.

>> Wow.

>> And people got upset by that because they thought they were entitled.

And I had to let them know this is something very deep and personal.

>> This is my life, not your life.

>> "You can't have an opinion about this," you know?

Like, people are upset, they're crying.

I'm like, "You need to deal with your projections onto me," because the projections are enormous.

>> Yes, they are.

>> They are, for everything.

If you're famous, people project onto you.

If you look a certain way, they project onto you.

>> If you're broke, if you're rich, everything.

>> It's constant.

Once you realize that, "Oh, people are not even noticing you, they're just projecting," that's a huge turning point in the spiritual process.

"Oh, they're just projecting."

>> So once the ego has hit rock bottom, how should we start to evaluate our traumas, our pains, so that we can move forward -- so we can heal them and move forward?

>> Oh, once the ego hits rock bottom, it's the most amazing place to start.

It's ground zero.

>> When was the last time for you?

>> Oh, my God.

Two years ago.

>> Really?

>> Yeah.

>> You hit rock bottom, but you were already awakened, I thought?

You were already conscious.

You were teaching people these things.

>> You go through many levels.

>> Yeah.

So there'll be another level in 10 years?

>> It could be.

How lovely.

>> Why do we got to go through so much pain?

>> No, it's not pain.

It's unfolding.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah, it's so -- I loved what I went through.

I honor and cherish all the pain because I needed to break down.

See, we look at pain in a very absurd way in this culture.

We're so pain phobic.

As a therapist or as a healer or seeker, pain, to me, is the most open place.

Pain is openness.

>> What happens when people say, "You know what, I'm not into therapy or self-growth or developing myself or looking at my pain.

I'm just -- I don't need to do that stuff.

My life is good.

Things are fine.

I'm succeeding.

I'm winning.

My relationship is good."

What tends to happen in general to people like that?

>> You as a coach or a partner recognize that they are in resistance, because nobody's life is so good until they've done a lot of work, right?

But you can tell when people are not ready, and you can break your head waiting for them.

You can show them pattern after pattern.

I, now in my 40s, have gracefully learned to identify these people and release them from any expectation.

You know, everyone has their own level of awareness.

I call it "Where are they on the continuum of consciousness?"

So just because you change, don't expect you going home and your partner changing.

>> It's not going to happen?

>> It's not by osmosis.

>> So how does this -- I mean, there's a lot of married couples in the world that have two, three kids.

They've been married 10, 15 years.

It tends to typically be the woman, I feel like, is starting to grow and evolve, right, emotionally, being more emotionally conscious.

And I'm generalizing this where the man is more resistant.

Again, generalization.

What should the woman do there?

If the man is maybe 20% behind and then 40% behind, like, but she loves him.

She wants to keep it together.

She wants to be married to this person.

Does she just accept the behavior and live with it and do the best she can and find her relationships elsewhere and -- How does a woman in that position where it's not horrible -- >> Yeah.

It's that 80%.

70%.

>> Yeah, it's maybe it's like half the time he's conscious, half the time he's not.

What does a woman do there?

>> Yeah, the second or third question in every seminar I do is "What do I do?

My partner is not doing the work."

It is the second to third, if not the first, yes.

So women, you're right, take the lead because we are already tuning in.

We get our menstrual cycle.

We are connected to our bodies.

We're breastfeeding our children.

We're raising -- We're in the world of emotional connectivity anyway.

We are the connectors.

>> You're communicating with other women about challenges, shame, hurt.

Whereas men typically tend to not say those things.

>> Right, you're in the outside world achieving, you know?

And you've made it a mechanistic, hierarchical, dogmatic world.

We're in the world of feelings and raising children and they keep us close to our heart.

So now the woman is growing, and it's not terrible.

Then she has to kind of compromise.

Yeah, she fills her bucket through other means.

This is most women doing this.

>> Really?

>> Yeah, she's just decided, "Okay, he is what he is.

He's good enough.

She's good --" It could be a same-sex relationship.

The partner is good enough.

So if you're willing to be with good enough, good enough is good enough.

Then, if it's really abusive, that's when she's in a pickle.

>> Yeah.

>> And that's why she needs her sisters to support her and be there for shelter and protection.

And other men.

If the other person is just not growing, right -- So one is abuse.

That's direct.

You got to know what to do.

One is 50/50.

That's hard.

But if the other person is just not changing, then the woman has to make a pivotal decision.

"How important is growth and consciousness for me?"

And then she has to follow her own governance and her lead, and that's really hard for women to do.

But she needs to honor growth.

Relationships should be growth-inducing, growth-fulfilling, growth-focused, growth-destined.

>> Oof.

>> If both are not working on growth, then you can be good friends.

>> Right.

>> Right?

See them once a month.

And certainly if they're taking away from you, if they're constricting you, you know, in our 40s and 50s, we realize we don't need that anymore.

We are worthy.

>> You're like, "I don't --" >> "I don't need this."

Yeah, "I don't need this."

But, you know, till then, we do.

And we've already had five children and, you know, a lifetime with this person.

But it's okay to say "Now I'm ready for the next chapter of my life," to be brave, to say "It's okay.

I can -- I can do this."

Change is not easy because it brings such a fear of rejection and abandonment.

But it's okay.

It's okay.

Seasons change.

The tide changes.

The moon and the sun go up and down.

It rises and falls.

>> People come and go.

People are born.

People die.

>> Yeah, we were young once.

We're older.

So change is inevitable, as we know, right?

Nothing is permanent.

Neither should our relationships be.

>> What should the three questions that -- say someone's starting to date someone.

They're three months in, six months in, and things are moving along.

You want to ask three questions to determine if this relationship has the chance of being, you know -- >> Growth.

>> Powerful, growth-minded, acceptance.

Not controlling.

What what would those three questions be?

>> Well, you know, you first want to know how much inner work the person has done.

You want to talk to their therapist.

You want to see the appointments.

You want to know how long they've been doing this.

I'm just kidding.

You'll get a sense of their consciousness quotient.

That is number one.

>> Yes.

>> You have to see how integrated is this person from their childhood to adulthood.

Have they worked on their wounds?

>> Here's the challenge.

Everyone shows the best version of themselves in the first year, and they act like they've done this in general, right?

So how do you truly know when everyone's on their best behavior?

>> So you don't move in.

Don't move in.

>> "You want to hang out with that guy or that girl?

Go ahead, yeah."

>> Don't get so excited in that first year.

You know that each one is trying to present the false self, so don't you know that?

So don't give in for the first year.

You know it takes time.

So you can't be jumping to the altar right away, right?

>> Yeah.

>> So number one is what is the consciousness quotient?

And then I would -- you know, I'm a little unconventional, so I will not find anyone, probably, but it's because they'll fail my questions.

So I would ask them about their beliefs about, you know, all the stereotypical institutions.

And I have done so much work deconstructing cultural lies that I want to be with someone who has deconstructed -- >> Otherwise, you're fighting against values, beliefs, ideas.

>> Then it becomes a schism of basic values, you know?

And then the last thing would be, you know, just how present they are.

Are they worthy of their own love?

Are they whole?

You know, that's all connected to the first two.

But it then shows up in that person because they're present.

They're radiant, they're joyous, they're liberated.

You know, you can see liberated people because they don't need anything from you.

>> They're not expecting anything.

They don't need something to feel good.

>> They don't judge.

>> They are good.

>> And they're bursting with that.

>> Yeah.

>> So you feel it.

That's true chemistry, right?

You want to be attracted to the essence of the person, not to their sports car or -- >> Their bank account or the way they look.

>> Right, because that's going to end.

That's transient.

Consciousness lasts.

You are living with the person's consciousness, you're living with the person's inner demons.

Because after the first two years, when the cars are all -- you've done that.

>> You've traveled the world, you've done -- yeah.

>> Now you're living with their inner child.

Do you like their inner child?

That's what we go like, "Whoa."

And your inner child comes out.

So does your inner child know how to play with their inner child?

And that's when you say the bubble bursts.

But it's no one's fault.

It's because we both presented with the bubble.

This is what the ego does.

It presents the best self.

You think you're falling in love.

Even the idea of falling in love, you don't want to fall.

You should not be falling.

>> Rise.

>> You should be standing solid.

>> Exactly.

>> So the fact that we fall is because we are falling for the illusion, you know?

And then we're upset in two years that another relationship didn't work out because it was the false self, "the survivor," who is holding on.

And after some time, the survivor stops or the ego breaks down, and now you see each other's raw self behind the prison wall.

And you're now both convicts looking for the other to rescue them.

I call them twin beggars.

Give me, give me, give me, give me.

>> You're not giving me enough.

Yeah.

>> It's never going to be enough.

>> Wow.

>> Because we were beggars all along.

We needed to only dare to enter a relationship after we've been full.

Very hard to do, I know.

So you're gonna beg away.

>> How does a 23-year-old... >> She doesn't.

>> ...get full.

>> She goes through the pain and the pain like we all have gone through, heartache after heartache, blaming the other, crying to our girlfriends.

>> "He didn't do this.

She didn't do that."

>> And then everyone commiserates and go, "Yeah, he was really terrible."

>> "He was horrible."

>> "He was horrible.

Leave him."

We don't realize it's just inner child to inner child.

Trauma to trauma, beggar to beggar.

>> What happens when two people who have truly healed their traumas, I mean, done the years of work, they're not expecting, they're not holding grudges, they're not resentful, they're not needing something, what happens when those two type of people get together?

>> I think there's such a thing as a beautiful intimacy where you truly can see the other person but as their own being.

And you don't need anything from them.

You don't need them to be a certain way.

And they know and you know that it's a journey.

So we walk together for some sunsets, and maybe others we don't.

And each is okay.

We'll be sad if the other one walks away, but not devastated or broken.

See, we sometimes think to be broken is to have really loved if they left.

Similarly, when our kids go off to school or college, if we don't cry, that means I didn't really love my kids.

We have this weird romance around crying a lot or pain or brokenness.

That means we really loved.

No, love is freedom.

We need to be happy for the other person when they go to their other lover.

>> That's big, right?

>> But if you truly loved that other person, then how is it about you?

It's what makes that person happy.

Very hard.

Because culture has raised us with possession and monogamy as the main goal.

So anyone who deviates from that is a frickin' cheater, and we know what we call cheaters.

>> I have a couple final questions for you.

So imagine it's your last day on Earth, many years away, and you've accomplished everything you want to accomplish.

But for whatever reason, you got to take all of your work with you, all of your written work, this interview, all of your content.

No one has access to what you've shared in the past, but you have a piece of paper and a pen and you get to leave behind three lessons to the world.

Three things you've learned.

This is all we would have to remember your information by.

I call it three truths.

What would be your three truths?

>> Wow.

I think number one would be wake up to the lies of the Matrix and don't sell your soul to culture's lies.

It's a lie.

Number two, it's your destiny to be your authentic self and to live free.

So claim it.

Don't believe that giving it up is a virtue.

>> Ooh, yeah.

>> And I think the third one would be, you know, why I named my daughter Maya, is just all of this is an illusion.

And it's so insignificant in the cosmic scheme of things.

Your ego makes things significant, but, you know, the freedom comes when you realize you're not that significant.

>> My final question is what's your definition of greatness?

>> Daring to be real and authentic.

That's greatness for me.

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable.

Stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes.

And if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website LewisHowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of "The School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course "Find Your Greatness" is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to LewisHowes.com/tv.

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