- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind The Headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- A look at the recent elections and the future elections this year.

Tonight, on Behind The Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I'm Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian, and thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by Linda Phillips, she is Shelby County Election Administrator, thank you for being here.

- Oh, thank you for having me.

- And Mark Luttrell is Chairman of the Shelby County Election Commission, thank you for being here again.

- Thank you, Eric.

- Along with Bill Dries, Reporter with The Daily Memphian.

At the top, I said we're gonna look at elections, and not so much the candidates in the horse race, but the process of the elections.

And I'll start with a big picture question, before we get more in the weeds, I think, you know, and some of what's going on right now.

And I asked your predecessor, Brent Taylor, a couple months ago, who was Shelby County Chair of the Election Commission.

In this time where, at least, at a national level, and often a state level, there's so many questions and doubts about election integrity.

And all that comes... much of that comes from the Trump loss, in the most recent federal election.

But in many states, you know, that's a big issue.

It's a big issue of governors, of secretaries of states, and so on and so forth.

How do you, I'll start with you, Linda, how do you assure people that there is integrity in the elections, that the numbers are accurate, the certification, we're taping this a week ago from when it airs, that the rolls that are certified are what people really voted?

Because there's been questions, as long as I can remember as an adult, but the questions have only grown.

And the arguments and concerns have only got more heated.

- Well, what I would say with voters is that if they have doubts about the process, they should call us and come out, take a tour, see what we do to preserve the integrity of our elections.

We have a very tight process, we have an enormous amount of security, and there are lots and lots of checks and balances.

So, you know, I am confident that our elections are run fairly, honestly, and accurately.

- And for you, you've been... We were joking a little bit before we started that you're on here, in I think, your fourth position.

It was the head of the Penal Farm, and then as sheriff, then as county mayor, and now in this position.

- Right.

- So you've been in public life one way or another, I mean, most of your professional career.

For you, how do you assure... And do you get questions when people... if people know, back when you were mayor, or now, if they know you're on the Commission, that, you know, well they... these things all are accurate.

Dead people are voting, the... you know, all the things you hear, kind of anecdotally, what do you say to them?

- Well, shortly after leaving the office of mayor, I was talking to one of my political friends.

He said, "Mark, if you really want to learn "to appreciate the election process, work a campaign, now work the polls."

So in 2020, I worked the polls.

- Oh, really, as a poll worker?

- Yes.

- Checking people in.

- And yeah, working there, out in New Bethel in Germantown, and worked early voting 2 weeks of 12 hour days, and then election day.

And I had an opportunity to see Democrats and Republicans working together, and the Election Commission really endeavors to have a bipartisan representation throughout the process.

So you see Democrats and Republicans working without any regard to DNR, and working through those issues, and really going out of their way to try to get that person to vote and get 'em... Oftentimes people come in and their addresses are off, or they haven't registered correctly, or maybe there's been other confusions.

So I walked away from that event in 2020 thinking, "We've got a pretty darn good system."

- Yeah, when that happened, and then I'll go to Bill, when that happens, the simple...

But really, you know, there's an inaccuracy with someone who walks in, that again, it became such a national issue.

I mean, you had CNN cameras, and Fox News cameras, and MSNBC saying, you know, national news on ballots.

And, you know, a couple of ballots in Arizona, or Florida, or Georgia, that were not right.

What really happens here in Shelby County, if someone walks in, as the mayor, as the Chairman says, you know, "There's an address problem, there's some discrepancy," what is that process?

Is it people throwing up their hands and saying, "There's fraud happening," or is it much more routine?

- It's much more routine, you know, people change their addresses all the time and forget to tell us, but we have a process.

You know, the voter comes in, we never turn a voter away.

Worst case scenario, they'll vote a provisional ballot, and we'll research it after the election.

But most of the problems can be resolved very quickly and easily just with a phone call to our help desk.

- Yeah, let me bring in Bill.

- So the next election that comes up is the August election.

And that will be the County General Election that will also include some nonpartisan county offices, state, and federal primaries.

And we have, I believe, the Arlington Municipal Elections on that particular ballot.

Folks in the business, in the trade, call this "the big ballot".

It is the longest ballot of any election cycle in our politics here in Shelby County.

How do you prepare for that?

[everyone laughs] - Well, I'll start off.

Constantly, we're trying to recruit workers, and we need more workers.

The Democrats do a good job of volunteering to work the polls.

We need more Republicans to come out and be a part of the process as well, so we need more volunteers.

We need roughly about 750 to run a good election with this long ballot that may take even more, but certainly we need help in that regard.

One of the deficiencies that has been long noted, and which has been in the media, is our equipment.

We have... And this is not a problem that can be resolved by August, but it's a lingering issue for us, as we deal with these long ballots, is the inefficiency of the equipment we have.

We need some help from our County Commission to get the funding that's necessary to completely renovate our election process; we are woefully inadequate.

- And Linda, that process is in court as we speak, so a court will have to settle what amounts to a standoff, between the County Commission and the Election Commission, over who funds a new voting system, and who gets to pick that new voting system.

- Yeah, the law is very clear that the County Commission funds it.

And we believe that the law is very clear that the Election Commission funds it.

So we'll just have to see how it plays out.

- So the touchscreen machines that we have, and that we've had for quite a while now, are they up to handling this big ballot come August?

- Yes, they will handle it.

You know, my concern is, because it is such a very long ballot, the uploading of each memory card takes more time.

So voters should not expect results instantly on election night.

- So on the touchscreens, you can turn what are called "pages".

And so how many pages does one of these ballots take up?

- We don't know yet, we're starting the process.

You start the process with the layout of the paper ballots.

And I do know that it is going to be three eighteen-inch pieces of paper for absentee voters.

- All right, there has been some discussion about what you prepare for, in terms of voter turnout, based on what turnout has been, on that election cycle in, in past elections.

And it seems as if, for some years now, there's always been a dispute about the primary, since they're so low turnout, why not open up all of the early voting sites on day one of the early voting period?

Versus a phased-in opening, where you might have just the downtown site, as we did now, in the first two days, and then you move to the others.

This election cycle for the May primaries was a little bit different, because Easter Sunday was in the middle of that.

But should we look at trying to increase voter turnout in early voting?

Or should we look at what the pattern has been?

Which is the better strategy, do you think?

- Well, I prefer the strategy of what the pattern is, but then we temper that with local knowledge.

I mean, this is kind of a crude way to do it, but we drive around to neighborhoods and see how many campaign signs are up.

That, you know, tells us how much interest there is in certain races.

And we allocate equipment based upon both past turnout, what we think are the important races that are driving voter turnout, because voters come out to vote when they think their vote makes a difference.

Now, we generally, in an August election, I mean, this is up for the county... the Election Commission to decide, but we always open all early voting sites in an August election on day one.

- Okay, all right.

- One of the things, Bill, when I became Chairman, and I asked Linda about this early on, is, "What is the determining factor of how you open 'em, and when you open 'em?"

And we have an immense amount of historical data that goes back years and years and years, it shows voting trends, voting patterns, surges, events that might typically impact that election.

It's a very data-driven process.

It's not just counting signs, but it's everything from counting signs, to looking at voting trends, to look at the wave of the campaigns, how popular the campaigns seem to be.

We knew that this particular primary was not generating a great deal of interest, in large part because the Democrats really didn't have a primary.

- Or the Republicans.

- I mean, the Republicans, really didn't have a primary, which certainly affected the turnout of the election.

- Those were not as close, I'm sorry to interrupt you, what you mean by that is they were not competitive races for the Republicans.

- Well, they weren't competitive, and they didn't come out.

- Because they had one candidate, so it was sort of, "Hey, that person's gonna win, so there's not gonna be a lot of people coming out."

- And there just wasn't that great a turnout in the Republican areas.

- Yeah, yeah.

- So it was something that we knew going in, and that prediction proved to be true.

- To that point about primaries, you've run in those primaries before for sheriff and for county mayor, there is some renewed discussion about whether partisan primaries in county elections are a worthy endeavor that they should continue.

And I think a lot of that discussion this time has been spurred by some discussion on the city side about having partisan primaries.

- Yeah.

- Do you think card... do you think county partisan primaries work, should they be held?

- No, I think we need to move away from that, in large part because primaries, or elections, should be an opportunity for parties to expand their base.

Primaries cause parties to turn insular, and work on their base, and really not work to expand.

One of the things that I really endeavored to do, as a candidate, is to get outside of the Republican base area, and see what you could do to spread your message out across the community.

It's very difficult to get candidates to do that when they're at a partisan primary race, and they're really trying to generate outcome from their base.

So rather than being a process of broadening the base, and increasing your tent, primaries reduce the size and cause people to become more insular in their thinking.

I would prefer not to have the partisan primaries, that we keep it open, and that we give people that choice to vote as they wish.

We're one of the counties that has partisan primaries.

You have many counties across Tennessee that do not have partisan primaries, it's a local decision to be made.

- A follow-up, though, it seems as if it... this is not something that one party can, or would do, unilaterally.

So as long as one party is doing very well in the county primaries, is it likely that we will see an end to it?

- Well, it's a good point.

I think the Republicans essentially did away with theirs this year, and that was just the work of the heads of the party.

But I think your point's well taken, if it works to your benefit, then you obviously want to keep it.

But I think from the standpoint of the service that's provided to the citizenry in total, it's an opportunity that's missed to broaden your tent.

- I think, just in some of the numbers behind some of the things we're talking about, I think the turnout was about 10% of eligible voters, is that- - About 11%.

- About 11%, which is, you know, on some level just disappointing, right?

You know, just as a citizen, as a person, you want this level of engagement.

But again, we're talking about some of these problems.

But did I read this correctly, you can correct me if I'm wrong, "Nearly 40,000 voters cast their ballots "in the early voting period.

"That was actually a 35% increase "compared to the 2014 county primary-only election, and on pace with 2018."

So there's some good news in the silver lining.

The 11% is disappointing, but there were... And again, we're jumping over COVID and all that kind of stuff.

- Actually, if you look by party, Democratic, the number of voters that selected a Democratic ballot increased over 2014 and 2018.

- Yeah.

- The low turnout in 2022 was primarily because Republicans stayed home.

- Yeah, let me do two...

I know we touched on this, but just to give people who aren't as close to this, and y'all correct me where I get something wrong, 'cause although I did write it down.

In August, again, that's the general elections for county, is that correct?

We just had the primaries, also the state and federal primaries, that's the part that always makes my head explode.

That part of that August is general election, and it's final for, help me, county mayor, County Commission, the DA, those are probably the biggest of the kind of particular- - The countywide offices.

We also have nonpartisan and races for judicial offices for judges.

And we have nonpartisan county general elections for school board positions- - Okay.

- As well.

- Okay, those will all be final.

Then we've got the primaries for the state... - Legislature.

- Legislature, the governor, and then House.

We don't have a Senate this year- - No, we don't have that.

- Is that correct, okay, that's all.

Then November 8th, which I think most people think of as the election day in November, that will be the final election for the state and- - And that's all general.

- And that's all general.

And then we've also got some in the suburb, some elections, and we'll do that another time.

- Municipal elections.

[everyone laughs] - Eric, also I'll make the point that you've got multiple elections that are taking place, but they're all on the same ballot.

[chuckles] - Yeah, right, right.

- So you go in there, you're gonna be voting a general election, you're gonna be voting a primary election, you're voting judicial elections, all on the same ballot.

- And it is...

I mean, I've said this before, and I, you know, I'm pretty close to this.

I mean, we cover, we talk to these people, we write about 'em, we talk to people here.

And inevitably, I go in and go, "I didn't research this one, there's a race that I didn't..." - Yeah.

- And what for, again, y'all are nonpartisan, particularly you, I mean are... and you're talking about being bipartisan, but you're in a nonpartisan position, right?

I mean, you administer these elections.

But in terms of voter education, when people go into, what we're talking about, is gonna be a big ballot, do you have recommendation for them of how they can do the research, to be aware of what they're going in to vote on?

- Well, there's two good resources, one is local, the university...

I mean, not the university, the Memphis Public Library has a really good website with links to the candidates, and their Facebook pages, and their, you know, webpages if they have them.

The League of Women Voters' "Vote 411" is another good unbiased source of information.

- One more, getting back into the weeds a little bit, did I read right that the state did a lot when it was in session, as it always does.

Did they squash rank-choice voting, did I... - They did.

- So there's been that conversation... - It's done.

- It's done.

So now at state law, it would take the state to undo what was debated here, and talked about here, and lots of advocates for rank-choice voting.

But that is just not gonna happen at this point.

- It's not gonna, no.

- Okay, let me go back to Bill.

- And we should point out that there could be additional things on the ballot too, because the City Council right now, as we talked about previously, is looking at some city charter amendments, which have to be approved or rejected by voters on that.

So you need to know, pretty soon from them, if that's gonna go on August or November, I take it.

- Yeah, I've been in contact with their attorney, and they know the deadlines, so... - All right.

In terms of our voter base, the total number of voters here, you do a purge process that cannot take place in an election year, right?

- Well, parts of it can.

- Okay.

- But we don't eliminate any voters ninety days prior to a federal election, so... - Okay.

- How and why would a voter be... when we say "purged" or "eliminated", that's from the rolls, from the list of what?

- Well, it takes objective third-party evidence that a voter no longer lives at the address that they are registered at.

And that can be one of several things.

It can be a piece of returned first class mail, if it was part of a uniform nondiscriminatory mailing, it can be a notice from the Department of Safety that they have a more recent different address for them.

Or it can be a notice from the United States Postal Service that the voter has filed a change of address form.

So based upon that, once we get that notification, we make the voter inactive, and send them a forwardable notice that offers them some choices.

- How much does...

I mean, build a story for us, people have written about it, about trouble at the... problems with the US Postal Service and deliveries.

And, you know, I've experienced it, anecdotally, but I think also objectively, most people would say there's a lot of undelivered mail.

I mean, I was getting holiday cards in March and April.

And I mean, it's just really kind of bad.

How much...

When you are so dependent on the sort of, the legal certification that this piece of mail returned, or received, or whatever, how much trouble are you all running into with USPS issues?

- We were having some issues in late '20 and '21, but it seems to have gotten better.

But even though we get a piece of mail returned, that's not the final step in the process.

The voter has four years, or two federal general elections, to make contact with us to vote, before they would be removed from the rolls.

- And I highlight this, in part, because again... and this comes up, people are saying, Well, there was a big purge, so it is worth digging in on.

The other one is, what are the rules now in Tennessee about criminal history and voting?

And how does that come into play with taking... purging voters from the rolls?

- Well, again, the same kind of a process.

We get a notice from the courts, or we get a notice from the state, that a voter has been convicted of a felony.

And we're provided with the information to make sure that we're talking about the same voter; date of birth, social security number.

If those things are true, then we will make... remove the voter from the rolls.

But then we send the voter a notice, you know, just in case somebody, somewhere along the lines, made a mistake.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- I mean, we send them a notice.

- About how many people in this year, I mean, in a... you don't know at this point, but in a given busy year with elections, how many voters might be purged?

- Well, they're only done in off... we only actually remove them in off years, but typically 15,000 of a total registration of 585,000.

- So I mean, a significant number, I mean, it's not insignificant.

- Yeah.

- Okay.

Yeah, Bill.

- Mayor, Mr. Chairman.

[everyone chuckles] Yes, yes.

What kind of a view have you had of the process from the inside on this, and did it differ significantly, has it differed significantly, from what you encountered when you were a candidate?

- Well, the frustrations that you all have mentioned, and personally, in dealing with these things, we find is widespread.

And typically people don't really focus on the election process until the day of the election.

And they come and they have problems, and you have to work 'em out.

What really got me interested in it was the events of 2020.

There was so much [indistinct] over the issues of 2020, that I wanted to get involved, and just see, to what extent, I could be a part of it.

This was, probably 2020, was probably the most reviewed and audited election in the history of the United States.

I think it was a good election, and I think the results are true.

I wanted to be part of making sure that Shelby County was true and was working in accordance with the law.

Plus it's just a process that I'm interested in, because we're seeing so many people drop out of the voting process.

The erosion that we see falling off, to me, is alarming.

And part of it has to do with the lack of trust in the electoral process.

So I think we have two responsibilities; Linda and myself have two responsibilities.

Number one is to make sure that we have a system with integrity.

But secondly, we do have a public relations responsibility to try to get out and sell the election process that we have.

And how we go about doing that is something that the Commission, and the administrator, need to sit down and see how we can do that best.

But I'm motivated to seeing what we can do to get an uptick in turnout, because our turnout gets woefully low with each election.

And then this past May, when you're down to 10%...

I can remember on some city elections, back a few years ago, where you had under 10%.

And when you think of 7 and 8% of the eligible voters are selecting the leadership for 100% of the people, something is not clear.

- Well, and in looking at that 2018, the midterms in 2018, that general election was the first election, by my count in, since 1994, that was a non-presidential general election, where we had a majority of the voters in the county turn out.

That's a pretty long gap to go.

Linda, you you've worked elsewhere, is that typical, or are we unique in that regard, do you think?

- No, it's reasonably typical, but I think it has more to do with, you know, the rolls that we have.

You know, we recently mailed a postcard to every active voter.

And about, at this point, I believe we have about 80,000 of them returned as undeliverable, which doesn't surprise me, that's in line with previous mailings.

If we'd like, change a polling place, we'd get between 20 and 30% of them returned as undeliverable.

So I think we're basing our turnout off of the wrong number.

- So with that, I mean, we talked about the post office and all this, what do you do beyond mail?

And I'm sure, you know, my kids, you know, who are 22, 23, would be like, "You're trying to mail me?"

I mean, you know, like, "How about hitting me, you know, one, by email at worst, text definitely, social media."

I mean, what are the efforts there, back to the PR and the outreach and that whole... the importance of that role, what does the Election Commission do, beyond the mail to try to reach voters?

- Well, if we have an email or a phone number, we will try those, which frankly, often we don't, a lot of voters they're optional on the voter registration form, and they don't fill them out.

We have a lot of landlines that are no longer exist, [laughs] we do know that much.

- Right, right.

So, you know, and we publish a list of inactive voters on our website.

We make efforts to reach out and- - Yeah.

- we do everything we can.

- Just a minute.

- And you also worked in this past election with the Shelby County Voter Alliance on several events, is more of that likely to... - I hope so, I hope... we're meeting this afternoon on that topic, so- - Okay.

- I'll know more then.

- As a former candidate, I mean, did... You ran twice for sheriff, twice for county mayor, in that period of time, did you go for more your campaign folks, more social, more outreach, more texting?

I mean, was that... that must have happened as you were running.

- Oh absolutely, of course, social media was really coming into full stride when I was running, and social media became a part of it.

But you know, there's nothing better than the candidate just getting out there and walking the neighborhoods.

- Okay.

- And that's what more candidates need to be doing.

- All right, we will leave it there.

Thank you for joining us.

If you missed any of the show, you can get the full show at wkno.org, or you can download as a podcast wherever you get your podcast.

Thanks for being here, and we'll see you next week.

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