FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Lou: THIS WEEK ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS EXPLORING OVERSIGHT.

WE DIG INTO ACCUSATIONS OF FORMER NEW MEXICO SHERIFF AND POLICE CHIEF WHO WERE MIXED UP IN A MULTI-STATE MACHINE GUN SCHEME AND WHY NO ONE WAS WATCHING.

>> Reisen: IN THE INDICTMENT IT SAYS THAT BOTH GONZALES AND MORA HAD NO EXPECTATION THAT THESE GUNS WOULD EVER BE DEMONSTRATED OR PURCHASED.

>> Lou: PLUS ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL VOTES TO SCRAP ITS AIR QUALITY BOARD.

WE'LL TELL YOU WHAT THAT MEANS FOR ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US THIS WEEK.

I AM SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO.

THE ALBUQUERQUE BERNALILLO COUNTY AIR QUALITY CONTROL BOARD IS GETTING REPLACED BY A GROUP ENVIRONMENTALISTS FEAR WILL BE FRIENDLIER TO POLLUTERS.

THAT IS AFTER THE CITY COUNCILORS PASSED TWO BILLS EARLIER THIS MONTH, BOTH INTRODUCED BY DISTRICT 5'S DAN LEWIS.

IN ABOUT 30 MINUTES OUR LANDS LAURA PASKUS SPEAKS WITH ERIC JANTZ, THE LEGAL DIRECTOR OF NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENTAL LAW CENTER.

AS HE EXPLAINS, HIS GROUP SEES THE MOVE AS A DELIBERATE ATTEMPT TO AVOID A REGULATION THAT WOULD LIMIT INDUSTRIES IN NEIGHBORHOODS ALREADY OVERBURDENED WITH POLLUTION.

DURING THAT SAME MEETING, COUNCILORS VOTED 6-3 IN FAVOR OF KEEPING ALL BUS FARES FREE FOR ALL RIDERS IN ALBUQUERQUE.

IN THE SECOND HALF OF TODAY'S SHOW, LAURA ASKS TWO TRANSIT ADVOCATES WHO BENEFITS MOST FROM THE ZERO-FARE PROGRAM.

BUT FIRST WE TURN OUR ATTENTION BACK TO A U.S. DISTRICT COURT IN MARYLAND.

THAT IS WHERE A FEDERAL INDICTMENT ALLEGING A CROSS-COUNTRY MACHINE GUN SCHEME NAMED FORMER BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFF, MANNY GONZALES, AND HIS UNDERSHERIFF, RUDY MORA, WHO ALSO SERVED AS POLICE CHIEF FOR LAGUNA PUEBLO.

NEITHER HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME BUT ACCORDING TO THE INDICTMENT, BOTH GONZALES AND MORA FALSIFIED DOCUMENTS TO HELP FIREARMS DEALERS ILLEGALLY OBTAIN MORE THAN 1000 MACHINE GUNS AND SHORT BARREL RIFLES.

IN JUST OVER 15 MINUTES, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER JEFF PROCTOR SPEAKS WITH DIANE LAYTON, A MEMBER OF THE BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE ADVISORY REVIEW BOARD.

JEFF ASKS WHY THERE ARE NO CHECKS AND BALANCES IN PLACE THAT MIGHT HAVE KEPT GONZALES FROM SIGNING BOGUS LETTERS TO HELP DEALERS IMPORT AUTOMATIC WEAPONS BUT JEFF BEGINS BY DIGGING A LITTLE DEEPER INTO THE INDICTMENT ITSELF AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE TWO FORMER NEW MEXICO LAWMEN.

IN A CONVERSATION WITH ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL CRIMINAL JUSTICE REPORTER MATTHEW REISEN, WE BREAK DOWN THE FACTS OF THE CASE AND CONSIDER THE POSSIBILITY OF CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST EITHER GONZALES OR MORA.

>> Jeff: MATT REISEN, WELCOME TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Reisen: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Jeff: SO WE WILL GET TO MANNY GONZALES, RUDY MORA AND THE LOCAL CONNECTIONS IN A MOMENT.

BUT I WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN WITH PART OF WHAT WAS IN THE HEADLINE ON YOUR OCTOBER 26 ALBUQUERQUE JOURNAL STORY.

WHICH MENTIONED A CROSS-COUNTRY MACHINE GUN SCHEME.

BASED ON THE INDICTMENT FILED IN U.S. DISTRICT COURT IN MARYLAND AND YOUR REPORTING, WHAT WAS THE SCHEME AND HOW DID IT WORK?

>> Reisen: SO THERE WAS A MAN NAMED SEAN SULLIVAN.

HE LIVES OUT EAST.

HE IS A GUN DEALER.

HE WAS ALSO AT THE TIME OF THIS WAS A DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY ANALYST AND HE WORKS FOR BNT USA WHICH IS LIKE A SILENCER GUN MANUFACTURER, IMPORTER TYPE, BUT HE HAD THE ABILITY TO IMPORT GUNS, RESTRICTED GUNS, THAT AREN'T ALLOWED TO BE MANUFACTURED IN THIS COUNTRY SO YOU HAVE TO IMPORT THEM.

BASICALLY WHAT HAPPENED WAS, SULLIVAN HAD A FRIEND NAMED LARRY VICKERS WHO WAS DELTA FORCE, BIG GUN ENTHUSIAST, YOUTUBE CHANNEL, MILLIONS OF VIEWS.

HE REVIEWS GUNS, LOVES THE AK 47 APPARENTLY, HAS ONE SIGNED BY KALASHNIKOV.

THAT WAS IN MY OTHER RESEARCH.

BASICALLY SULLIVAN HAD VICKERS, WHO VICKERS KNEW POLICE CHIEFS IN VARIOUS AREAS AND VICKERS WOULD ASK FOR A FAVOR FROM THESE POLICE CHIEFS FOR THEM TO SIGN DOCUMENTS.

THESE DOCUMENTS ARE CALLED LAW LETTERS.

WHAT A LAW LETTER IS, IS IT ALLOWS FOR THE IMPORTATION OF MACHINE GUNS IF IT IS FOR THE USE OF DEMONSTRATING TO A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY FOR POSSIBLE PURCHASE.

BASICALLY LIKE A CHIEF OF POLICE CAN SAY, HEY, I AM INTERESTED IN BUYING THIS MACHINE GUN OR THIS RESTRICTED WEAPON.

THEY CAN SIGN A LAW LETTER STATING THAT ON LIKE A DEPARTMENT LETTERHEAD AND THEN BASICALLY THEY WOULD GIVE THESE LETTERS TO VICKERS AS A FAVOR, THOUGH.

THESE WERE SMALL DEPARTMENTS.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE SWAT TEAMS.

ONE OF THEM ACTUALLY HAD ONLY ONE SWORN OFFICER AND THAT WAS THE POLICE CHIEF.

THEY WOULD GIVE THESE LETTERS TO VICKERS AND THEN VICKERS WOULD GIVE THESE LETTERS TO SULLIVAN WHO WOULD TURN THEM INTO THE ATF ON AN APPLICATION TO IMPORT GUNS AND BASICALLY PAY FOR MACHINE GUNS.

AND THE ATF WOULD APPROVE THESE REQUESTS BASED ON THESE LAW LETTERS.

AND THEN SULLIVAN WOULD BE ABLE TO IMPORT THESE WEAPONS AND HIM AND VICKERS WOULD SPLIT THEM UP AMONGST THEMSELVES, THEY WOULD SELL SOME OF THEM, THEY WOULD POST THEM ONLINE.

>> Jeff: AND KEEP THE ONES THEY LIKED, YEAH?

>> Reisen: AND KEEP THE ONES THEY LIKED, YEAH.

THEY WOULD LIKE SHOW PICTURES AND BE LIKE, OH, I WANT THAT ONE, GIVE ME THE ONE WITH THE SLING.

AND THEY WOULD SELL SOME OF THEM FOR LIKE $100,000 AND GIVE THEM TO COLLECTORS AND THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE NAMED AND NOT CHARGED WHO WERE INVOLVED IN KIND OF LIKE BEING GIVEN THE GUNS, BUYING THE GUNS.

>> Jeff: I KNOW THERE WAS SOME OF THAT, BUT ONE THING I WANT TO GET TO QUICKLY OFF THE TOP HERE, THE FED'S CALLED THOSE MACHINE GUNS.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE GUNS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?

>> Reisen: SOME OF THE GUNS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE GLOCK 18'S WHICH ARE GLOCK PISTOLS BUT THEY FIRE AUTOMATICALLY.

SOME OF THE GUNS WERE, IT IS FAMAS.

I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU PRONOUNCE IT.

IT MIGHT BE FAMAS.

THOSE ARE AUTOMATIC WEAPONS.

SILENCERS ARE CONSIDERED NFA'S LIKE NFA WEAPONS.

AND THEN LIKE WE ARE TALKING LIKE WAR RELICS.

LIKE WE TALKING GUNS THAT NEED A TRAILER TO BE MOVED FROM PLACE TO PLACE.

THEY NEED WATER TO COOL THEM BECAUSE THEY FIRE 950 BULLETS IN A MINUTE.

>> Jeff: SO, WHAT IS REQUIRED TO BE ABLE TO PUT YOUR HAND ON THIS KIND OF FIRE POWER?

I AM GOING TO GET CALLS FROM PEOPLE WHO SAY IT IS OKAY TO OWN THESE SORTS OF WEAPONS BUT IF YOU WANT AN MP5 OR AN UZI PISTOL, YOU TALKED ABOUT SOME IN YOUR FIRST ANSWER, BUT WHAT DO I HAVE TO DO TO HAVE ONE OF THOSE GUNS?

>> Reisen: YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE A FEDERAL FIREARM LICENSEE, BASICALLY A GUN DEALER, BUT YOU WOULD ALSO HAVE TO HAVE LICENSURE TO -- YOU HAVE TO GET A LICENSE TO BE ABLE TO POSSESS, TRANSFER OR BUY NFA FIREARMS.

AND NFA FIREARMS ARE FIREARMS RESTRICTED IN THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT AND THAT WAS AN ACT PUT IN PLACE A LONG TIME AGO AND BASICALLY JUST BANNED AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, SHORT-BARRELED RIFLES, SILENCERS, PARTS THAT MAKE GUNS AUTOMATIC.

>> Jeff: GOT YOU.

SO, THAT IS GOING TO GET US A LITTLE BIT TO MANNY AND RUDY.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO KIND OF THE DESIGN OF THE SCHEME.

I LOVE THE WAY YOU PUT IT IN YOUR STORY THAT YOU SHOULD THINK OF IT LIKE A DOCTOR WRITING FRAUDULENT PRESCRIPTIONS FOR HIS FRIENDS.

WHO WAS WHO IN THAT ANALOGY AND IN THE SCENARIO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NOW?

>> Reisen: SO, IN THAT ANALOGY, THE DOCTOR IS A POLICE CHIEF, THE FRIENDS ARE GUN DEALERS, GUN ENTHUSIASTS, GUN COLLECTORS AND THE PRESCRIPTIONS, THE DRUGS, ARE LIKE AUTOMATIC WEAPONS.

SO, YEAH, IT IS PRETTY WILD STUFF.

>> Jeff: SO, WHO WERE MANNY AND RUDY IN THIS PARTICULAR SCENARIO?

LET'S GET TO SOME SPECIFICS WHILE WE ARE AT IT.

IN THIS INDICTMENT, LET'S MAKES IT CLEAR, SO FAR THEY HAVE NOT BEEN CHARGED.

NEITHER OF THEM IS FACING ANY CHARGES AT THIS TIME, BUT HOW MANY OF THESE LAW LETTERS DID THOSE GUYS WRITE AND HOW MANY GUNS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

>> Reisen: BETWEEN THEM, THEY WROTE OVER 100 LAW LETTERS AND THEY REQUESTED HUNDREDS OF GUNS.

>> Jeff: ALMOST 600, JUST FROM MANNY, RIGHT?

>> Reisen: YES, JUST FROM MANNY.

HUNDREDS OF GUNS BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM AND BASICALLY THEY REQUESTED VARIOUS FIREARMS, RESTRICTED ONES.

THE ONLY ONES WE KNOW ABOUT WAS THE FAMAS RIFLES, AUTOMATIC RIFLES, AND THEN THE GLOCKS, AUTOMATIC GLOCKS.

THEY REQUESTED SEVERAL OF THOSE.

THOSE ACTUALLY GOT IMPORTED ON THOSE REQUESTS.

IT IS UNCLEAR IF THEY EVER MADE IT HERE OR INTO ANYONE'S POSSESSION HERE, BUT THEY MADE IT INTO THE COUNTRY.

>> Jeff: SO WE DON'T KNOW WHAT BECAME OF THE GUNS THEY REQUESTED, RIGHT?

>> Reisen: WE DON'T.

>> Jeff: THAT IS AN OUTSTANDING QUESTION THAT I AM SURE YOU'RE PURSUING AS A NUMBER OF OTHER REPORTERS PROBABLY ARE.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE LAW LETTER SITUATION, THOUGH.

IN THIS INSTANCE, THEY HAVE TO SIGN THE LETTER THAT SAYS I WOULD LIKE TO PERFORM THIS DEMONSTRATION.

I AM THINKING ABOUT BUYING SOME OF THESE GUNS.

THE BEST WE KNOW SO FAR, DID MANNY OR RUDY OR EITHER OF THE OTHER TWO LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS, EVER PLAN ON HAVING THESE DEMONSTRATIONS OR HAVING THESE GUNS IN THEIR ARSENALS?

>> Reisen: TO OUR KNOWLEDGE, NO.

I MEAN, IN THE INDICTMENT IT SAYS THAT BOTH GONZALES AND MORA HAD NO EXPECTATION THAT THESE GUNS WOULD EVER BE DEMONSTRATED OR PURCHASED.

AND THERE IS ACTUALLY EMAILS IN A SEPARATE PETITION WHERE BASICALLY AN ATF IS DENYING ONE OF THE REQUESTS THAT MANNY DID, BASICALLY, AND SAYING IN THE DENIAL THAT GONZALES HIMSELF SAID THERE WAS NO USE FOR THESE GUNS AND THERE WOULDN'T BE A USE FOR THESE GUNS.

>> Jeff: DID HE GO BACK TO ATF AND MAKE A SUBSEQUENT STATEMENT?

I THINK I REMEMBER THAT FROM THE REPORTING.

DID HE OFFER SOME CONTRADICTORY ANSWERS?

>> Reisen: YEAH.

SO THIS ALL HAPPENED IN LIKE A SEVERAL MONTH TIME PERIOD.

BASICALLY THEY REACHED OUT TO HIM AND SAID, HEY, WE ARE FLAGGING YOU -- WE ARE REACHING OUT TO YOU BECAUSE WE FLAGGED THAT THESE GUNS ARE REQUESTED.

THESE DON'T SEEM LIKE THEY WERE WORLD WAR II RELICS.

ONE OF THEM WAS A GUN THAT HAS TO BE ON A TRAILER.

AND LIKE THESE DON'T SEEM LIKE GUNS YOU WOULD NEED.

DID YOU APPROVE THESE LAW LETTERS, BECAUSE, IF NOT, BASICALLY EXPLAINING THE LOOPHOLE AND STUFF.

SO, THEN, THEY SENT ANOTHER E-MAIL THAT WAS, LIKE, HEY A GUN DEALER IN FLORIDA IS NOW USING A LAW LETTER SIGNED BY YOU, LIKE, FOR GONZALES, OBVIOUSLY.

AND SO THEY SET UP A MEETING AND THEN APPARENTLY AT THAT TIME MANNY TOLD THEM, I DON'T NEED THESE GUNS.

THE GUN REQUESTS WERE DENIED BUT THEN A MEETING WAS SET UP WITH MORA, MANNY, LARRY KOREN, THE BCSO SWAT AND THE ATF, AND JAMES TAFOYA, A GUN OWNER IN TOWN.

WE'LL GET TO HIM IN A SECOND.

A MEETING WAS SET UP AND APPARENTLY AT THAT MEETING, MANNY TOLD THE ATF THAT THEY WERE VALID AND AUTHENTIC LETTERS AND THIS IS AFTER HE SAID THAT HE WOULD HAVE NO USE FOR THOSE WEAPONS.

>> Jeff: OKAY.

ONE OTHER THING I JUST WANT TO GET CLEAR DURING ALL THIS.

MANNY GONZALES WAS THE SHERIFF OF BERNALILLO COUNTY DURING THE PERIOD OF TIME THIS WENT ON.

IT WENT ON FOR FIVE OR SIX YEARS, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY.

>> Reisen: FIVE OR SIX YEARS.

>> Jeff: AND RUDY MORA WAS HIS UNDERSHERIFF WHEN MANNY WAS AT BCSO BUT THE ALLEGATIONS SORT OF NAMING HIM, THE PERIOD OF TIME HE WAS SIGNING THESE LETTERS, WHAT WAS HIS JOB THEN?

>> Reisen: HE WAS THE POLICE CHIEF FOR LAGUNA PUEBLO.

>> Jeff: OKAY.

SO THE LOCAL CONNECTION FOR MANNY AND RUDY, THE PERSON THEY WERE WRITING THESE LETTERS FOR, IS A GUY NAMED JAMES CHRISTOPHER TAFOYA.

WHY MIGHT MY VIEWERS REMEMBER HIS NAME FROM BEFORE?

>> Reisen: JAMES TAFOYA, HE WAS -- WHEN THERE WAS A BIG PROTEST DOWNTOWN, A LOT OF APD'S OFFICERS WERE DOWNTOWN AND DURING THAT TIME, SOMEONE WENT TO HIS GUN STORE ON THE WESTSIDE AND THEY CUT THE POWER AND BROKE IN AND THEY STOLE MORE THAN 100 GUNS.

NONE OF THEM WERE THE NFA GUNS, ACTUALLY VERIFIED THAT, BUT THEY STOLE MORE THAN 100 GUNS FROM THE STORE AND THEY NEVER FOUND WHO WAS -- THEY NEVER CHARGED ANYONE FOR THAT CRIME AND MOST OF THOSE GUNS ARE STILL OUT THERE SOMEWHERE.

>> Jeff: HAS TAFOYA BEEN IN THE NEWS OTHERWISE BEFORE THIS?

I THINK I REMEMBER ONE OTHER STORY THAT MIGHT HAVE INVOLVED HIM.

>> Reisen: I WROTE A STORY, A PACKAGE ABOUT STRAW PURCHASING AND I KIND OF WANTED TO FIND OUT WHERE A LOT OF THIS WAS HAPPENING AND BASICALLY WHAT I FOUND WAS THAT TAFOYA'S WAS ONE OF TWO GUN STORES WHERE MOST OF THE CHARGED STRAW PURCHASING OFFENSES ORIGINATED IN THE STATE.

MEANING THAT THAT IS WHERE PEOPLE WENT AND SAID, THIS GUN IS FOR ME WHEN REALLY IT WASN'T FOR THEM.

>> Jeff: SO, THE ATF KNEW WHO THIS GUY WAS BEFORE ANY OF THIS, AT LEAST THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN.

>> Reisen: YES.

THEY HAVE BEEN APPROVING NFA WEAPONS FOR HIM FOR A LONG TIME BEFORE THIS STUFF HAPPENED.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO GO BACK TO THE TWO OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT FOLKS MIXED UP IN THIS WHOLE THING.

ONE IS A POLICE CHIEF FROM NORTH CAROLINA.

THE OTHER FROM A TINY DEPARTMENT IN NORTH DAKOTA.

WHAT ARE THEY ALLEGED TO HAVE DONE AND HOW IS IT, IF IT IS, DIFFERENT FROM WHAT MANNY AND RUDY ARE ALLEGED TO HAVE DONE?

>> Reisen: WHAT THEY HAVE DONE IS THEY HAD SIGNED LAW LETTERS FOR VICKERS AND FOR OTHER CO-CONSPIRATORS WHO ARE NOT CHARGED, NOT EVEN NAMED ACTUALLY, JUST INITIALS ARE IN THE INDICTMENTS, BUT THEY SIGNED LAW LETTERS REQUESTING MACHINE GUNS.

WHAT THE ATF HAD IN THE INDICTMENT IS ACTUAL TEXT MESSAGE COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN THEM WHERE IT IS LIKE, CLEAR, THIS IS LIKE VICKERS ASKING FOR A FAVOR OR, YOU KNOW, THIS OTHER INITIAL PERSON ASKING FOR A FAVOR.

AND THEY ARE CLEARLY SAYING, OKAY, I'LL DO IT FOR YOU THIS ONE TIME OR, YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU OWE ME ONE, WHICH CLEARLY POINTS LIKE THIS WAS NOT ABOUT THEM GETTING MACHINE GUNS.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT THEY DID, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, WHAT THEY DID AND WHAT GONZALES AND MORA DID, I DON'T SEE A DIFFERENCE PERSONALLY.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEM, I THINK, IS THAT GONZALES AND MORA, WHEN THEY WERE BCSO, THEY ACTUALLY HAD LIKE A DEPARTMENT THAT HAD A SWAT UNIT.

THEY HAD A LOT MORE OFFICERS.

THOSE TWO POLICE CHIEFS WERE, LIKE, ONE OF THEM WAS THE ONLY SWORN OFFICER FOR THE DEPARTMENT.

AND THE OTHER ONE JUST HAD LIKE A COUPLE DOZEN OR MAYBE A COUPLE DOZEN OFFICERS.

>> Jeff: AND MANNY AND RUDY SIGNED A LOT MORE LETTERS FOR A LOT MORE GUNS, TOO, AND YET THEY ARE NOT CHARGED.

ONE QUESTION I HAVE AND I'LL ASK IF YOU KNOW, ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY ONGOING INVESTIGATION RELATED TO THIS?

>> Reisen: I REACHED OUT TO THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE OUT THERE IN LIKE MARYLAND WHERE THIS IS BEING CHARGED OUT OF, AND THEY WOULD NOT CONFIRM OR DENY THAT AN INVESTIGATION WAS EVEN OCCURRING, WHICH IS -- >> Jeff: THE CLASSIC FEDERAL RESPONSE.

>> Reisen: IT IS SILLY, YEAH.

>> Jeff: AT THIS JUNCTURE, MANNY IS NOT TALKING, RUDY IS NOT TALKING, THEY ARE NOT TALKING TO YOU, THEY ARE NOT TALKING TO ME.

BEST I CAN TELL, THEY MIGHT BE TALKING TO A HANDFUL OF LAWYERS AROUND TOWN.

WHO IS TALKING IS JOHN ALLEN, THE CURRENT SHERIFF.

HE HAD A NEWS CONFERENCE NOT LONG AFTER THE NEWS BROKE.

WHAT DID YOU LEARN THEN?

>> Reisen: HE BASICALLY CAME OUT AND SAID, LOOK, HERE IS THE NFA WEAPONS THAT WE HAVE.

IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE SOME WORLD WAR II RELIC GUNS.

THEY DON'T HAVE ONES THAT NEED TRAILERS, BUT THEY HAVE ONES THAT LIKE SHOOT HUNDREDS, 900 PLUS ROUNDS A MINUTE.

THEY HAVE BUSH MASTERS WHICH IS LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIKE KIND OF LIKE CARBINE RIFLES.

THEY HAD A SAWED OFF DOUBLE-BARRELED SHOTGUN.

YEAH.

BASICALLY ANOTHER THING THAT WAS INTERESTING THAT CAME OUT WAS THAT THEY FOUND OUT IN THEIR AUDIT THAT THERE WERE A COUPLE DOZEN AK 47'S AT LAGUNA PUEBLO THAT BELONGED TO A PRIVATE CITIZEN AND THERE HAVE BEEN SOME KIND OF COMMUNICATIONS WHERE DEPUTIES HAD BEEN -- HAD TO GO TO LAGUNA PUEBLO AND GET THE GUNS AND BRING THEM TO BCSO'S ARMORY.

I AM STILL LOOKING INTO THAT WHOLE THING.

BUT THAT BASICALLY CAME OUT TOO, WHERE LIKE HE WAS UNAWARE THAT THOSE GUNS WERE IN THERE.

HE SAID HE WAS UNAWARE THOSE GUNS WERE IN THEIR ARMORY.

SO BASICALLY THEY HAD TO, THEN, FIND THAT PRIVATE CITIZEN AND I BELIEVE THEY RELINQUISHED THE GUNS TO HIM AFTER TAGGING THEM INTO SOME KIND OF EVIDENCE SYSTEM.

>> Jeff: MATT, I AM NOT GOING TO ASK YOU TO TIP YOUR HAND BUT I HAVE KNOWN YOU LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW YOU STILL HAVE QUESTIONS HERE.

BRIEFLY, WE HAVE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE QUESTIONS YOU STILL HAVE?

>> Reisen: I AM CURIOUS WHAT HAPPENED IN THE MEETING BETWEEN ATF AND MANNY AND I'M CURIOUS WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT, BECAUSE ACCORDING TO ANOTHER PETITION, TAFOYA WANTED HIS GUNS BACK, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T CHARGE HIM FOR YEARS AFTER THEY CHARGED SULLIVAN AND VICKERS.

AND IN THE PETITIONS, HE BASICALLY SAYS THAT AFTER THAT MEETING WITH THE ATF WHERE MANNY SAID THEY ARE VALID AND AUTHENTIC, THAT THE ATF BEGAN APPROVING MORE LETTERS BETWEEN THE PARTIES.

SO I AM INTERESTED IN WHAT PLAYED OUT AFTER THAT.

I AM INTERESTED IN THIS PRIVATE CITIZEN WITH THESE AK 47'S BECAUSE, LIKE, THE FACT THEY WERE AT LAGUNA PUEBLO AND BROUGHT TO BCSO, APPARENTLY UNDER THE ORDERS OF THE LEADERSHIP, IS VERY COINCIDENTAL WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT MORA AND MANNY BOTH BEING INVOLVED IN THIS.

SO, I MEAN THOSE ARE JUST SOME OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I HAVE.

AT THIS POINT.

>> Jeff: I WILL BE LOOKING FORWARD TO READING THE ANSWERS YOU FIND AND I KNOW THAT PRETTY MUCH EVERYBODY ELSE I KNOW WILL AS WELL.

THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME TO BEING HERE TODAY AND BREAKING IT DOWN.

>> Reisen: THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Jeff: I'LL BE BACK HERE AT THE TABLE IN A QUICK SECOND WITH DIANE LAYDEN WHO SITS ON THE BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE ADVISORY REVIEW BOARD TO TALK ABOUT WHY OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY HAS BEEN CHALLENGING IN NEW MEXICO AND BEYOND FOR DECADES WHEN IT COMES TO SHERIFFS.

>> Jantz: IT PURGES THE CURRENT BOARD AND REPLACES IT WITH FOLKS WHO ARE PRESUMABLY MORE INDUSTRY FRIENDLY.

THE REALLY INTERESTING THING AND ACTUALLY KIND OF TROUBLING THING ABOUT THIS WHOLE PROCESS HAS BEEN THAT THESE BILLS ARE SPECIFICALLY TARGETING A PARTICULAR RULE-MAKING PROCEEDING, RIGHT.

SO, INDUSTRY HASN'T BEEN HAPPY WITH THE WAY THINGS HAVE GONE AND SO RATHER THAN GO THROUGH THE DESIGNATED PROCESS, THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO SEEK SOME OTHER REDRESS.

>> Jeff: LAURA'S CONVERSATION ABOUT AIR QUALITY REGULATIONS IN ALBUQUERQUE IS COMING UP IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES.

RIGHT NOW I AM JOINED BY DIANE LAYDEN.

DIANE, WE HAVE BEEN TALKING OVER EMAIL AND OTHERWISE ABOUT POLICING AND POLICE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR MANY YEARS AND I AM THRILLED TO HAVE YOU ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

THANK YOU FOR COMING.

>> Layden: I AM HAPPY TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: WE HAVE JUST SPENT A BIT HERE AT THE TABLE TALKING WITH MATT REISEN ABOUT THIS CASE.

INVOLVING POTENTIALLY IMPLICATING MANNY GONZALES AND RUDY MORA INVOLVING A MULTI-STATE MACHINE GUN SCHEME, AS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DESCRIBES IT.

BUT WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT ARE THE SYSTEMS IN WHICH THIS TOOK PLACE.

YOU HAVE BEEN OBSERVING BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFFS AND OTHER ASPECTS OF COUNTY GOVERNMENT IN VARIOUS CAPACITIES OF YOUR OWN SINCE LONG BEFORE YOU AND I MET.

WHAT HAVE BEEN SOME OF THE HIGHLIGHTS, LOW LIGHTS AND SEAMS THAT HAVE EMERGED IN THE LAST 40 OR 50 YEARS THAT YOU HAVE WATCHED THIS.

>> Layden: I WORKED FOR BERNALILLO COUNTY IN THE MID 1970'S.

I WAS HIRED IN THE PERSONNEL DEPARTMENT AND BECAME THE PERSONNEL DIRECTOR AND THEN BECAME AN ASSISTANT COUNTY MANAGER FOR LABOR RELATIONS WHEN THE COUNTY UNIONIZED AND THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT WAS THE FIRST DEPARTMENT THAT DID.

THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN QUESTIONS ABOUT THE COUNTY WORKING WITH ITS INDEPENDENT ELECTED OFFICIALS.

AND SOME OF THOSE OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN MORE INDEPENDENT THAN OTHERS.

SHERIFFS NOTORIOUSLY ARE INDEPENDENT IN NEW MEXICO AND SHERIFF MANNY GONZALES CLAIMED THAT NEW MEXICO SHERIFFS HAVE UNLIMITED POWERS.

THIS ISN'T ACCURATE.

THE COUNTY HAS BUDGET AUTHORITY AND ORDINANCE-MAKING POWER AND THE STATE GOVERNMENT REGULATES, EXCUSE ME, LOCAL GOVERNMENTS.

BUT, WITH THAT VIEWPOINT, SHERIFF GONZALES WAS ABLE, FOR EXAMPLE, TO REFUSE TO DISCUSS EVER BODY CAMERAS WITH THE COUNTY COMMISSION ALTHOUGH THE COMMISSION HAD BROUGHT FORTH THE MONEY TO BUY BODY CAMERAS.

SO, IT TOOK A STATE LAW TO BE PASSED IN JUNE, 2020, FOR BERNALILLO COUNTY TO HAVE BODY CAMERAS WHEN APD HAS HAD THEM SINCE 2012.

IN TERMS OF OTHER EVENTS OVER THE MANY YEARS, SHERIFF JOE WILSON IN THE MID 1970'S WAS REMOVED FROM OFFICE FOR BACKDATING A MEMO AUTHORIZING COUNTY CARS TO GO TO THE RACETRACK.

AND I BELIEVE TWO OF HIS EMPLOYEES, HIS CHIEF DEPUTY AND UNDERSHERIFF, SPENT SOME TIME IN PRISON OVER THIS MATTER.

SO, THERE HAVE BEEN UP'S AND DOWN'S WITH INDEPENDENT ELECTED OFFICIALS AND NOT ONLY THE SHERIFF BUT SOMETIMES THE TREASURER OR THE ASSESSOR.

>> Jeff: WE'LL GET TO THOSE OTHER POSITIONS IN A MOMENT TOO BUT YOU HAVE MENTIONED BEFORE ELECTED A COUPLE OF TIMES IN SORT OF THE EARLY PART OF OUR CONVERSATION HERE.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER CHALLENGES FROM AN ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY PERSPECTIVE THAT THAT NATURE OF THE OFFICE, THESE ARE ELECTED POSITIONS, NOT APPOINTED POSITIONS, WHAT OTHER CHALLENGES HAS THAT PRESENTED FOR COUNTY GOVERNMENT?

>> Layden: THE SHERIFF, FOR EXAMPLE, IS MENTIONED IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION IN TERMS OF HIS OR HER DUTIES.

THE COUNTY COMMISSION DOESN'T HAVE EVERYDAY AUTHORITY OVER THESE OFFICIALS.

YES, THEY ARE SUBJECT TO COUNTY ORDINANCES BUT THE COMMISSION DOESN'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON IN COUNTY OFFICES.

AND THAT IS HOW THESE LETTERS COULD HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BY SHERIFF GONZALES AND UNDERSHERIFF MORA WITHOUT ANYBODY KNOWING ABOUT THEM.

THERE WASN'T A DIALOGUE.

THERE IS NO LEGAL OVERSIGHT REQUIRED OF THE SHERIFF.

>> Jeff: HE DOESN'T ANSWER TO THE COMMISSION, RIGHT?

>> Layden: OFFICIALLY, HE DOES NOT ANSWER TO THE COMMISSION.

>> Jeff: SO THEY DO IT A LITTLE DIFFERENT IN THE CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE, DIANE, ON THE LAW ENFORCEMENT SIDE.

POLICE CHIEF IS APPOINTED BY THE MAYOR, HIREABLE AND FIREABLE BY THE MAYOR.

AS WE HAVE JUST DISCUSSED, THE SHERIFF IS AN ELECTED POSITION.

ARE WE LOOKING THERE AT SORT OF THE TWO EDGES OF THE PROVERBIAL DEMOCRACY SWORD?

>> Layden: OF COURSE, THE PERFORMANCE OF THE SHERIFF DEPENDS ON THE QUALITY OF THE SHERIFF WHO IS ELECTED.

CERTAIN SHERIFFS COULD, OF COURSE, HAVE WARM RELATIONS WITH THE COUNTY COMMISSIONERS.

AND I BELIEVE THAT RELATIONSHIP MAY EXIST NOW BETWEEN SHERIFF ALLEN AND THE COUNTY COMMISSION.

THAT IS MY IMPRESSION AS AN OUTSIDE OBSERVER.

I THINK STATE LAW WOULD HAVE TO BE CHANGED FOR SHERIFFS TO HAVE MORE ACCOUNTABILITY.

CURRENTLY, THEY CAN SIGN CONTRACTS WITHOUT A LEGAL REVIEW BY THE COUNTY COMMISSION STAFF, BY THE ATTORNEYS, THAT WORK FOR BERNALILLO COUNTY.

I KNOW THIS.

THIS CAME UP WHEN THE ON PATROL PROGRAM BECAME CONTROVERSIAL.

THAT WAS A TV PROGRAM IN WHICH LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS FOLLOWED BERNALILLO COUNTY DEPUTIES.

AND THEY STOPPED A WOMAN AFTER SHE HAD HAD A CAR ACCIDENT.

SHE CAME TO THE SHERIFF'S BOARD WITH HER STORY WITH HER BOYFRIEND AND HER MOTHER.

SHE HAD BEEN PLACED ON NATIONAL TV WITHOUT HER CONSENT.

IT WAS AT THOSE MEETINGS I DISCOVERED THAT THE SHERIFF COULD SIGN A CONTRACT WITH THE TV PROGRAM AND THERE WAS NO LEGAL REVIEW REQUIRED.

NOW, HE COULD REQUEST A LEGAL REVIEW BUT HE DIDN'T HAVE TO.

SO, THE SHERIFF HAS GREAT AUTONOMY AT BERNALILLO COUNTY AND APPARENTLY THROUGHOUT NEW MEXICO.

>> Jeff: AND THROUGHOUT THE NATION TOO.

YOU MENTIONED EARLIER THAT NOTION OF ULTIMATE AUTHORITY.

MANNY IS SORT OF ALIGNED WITH WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE REFER TO, AND THEY REFER TO THEMSELVES, AS THE SO-CALLED CONSTITUTIONAL SHERIFFS MOVEMENT.

WHAT KINDS OF CHALLENGES DOES THAT PRESENT IN TERMS OF SYSTEMS OF GOVERNMENT WORKING TOGETHER.

>> Layden: OKAY.

THE CONSTITUTIONAL SHERIFFS MOVEMENT BELIEVES IN NO POWER HIGHER THAN THE COUNTY, REALLY.

THERE IS ACTUALLY A GROUP CALLED POSSE COMITATUS WHICH MEANS POWER OF THE COUNTY.

IT IS A RIGHT WING GROUP.

THE SHERIFF'S CONSTITUTIONAL MOVEMENT DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THE AUTHORITY OF GOVERNORS OR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

IT BELIEVES IN ITS OWN AUTHORITY.

AND SO WE SAW THAT SHERIFF GONZALES DID NOT COMPLETELY COMPLY WITH GOVERNOR LUJAN GRISHAM'S PUBLIC HEALTH ORDERS, THE MASK MANDATES AND THE VACCINES.

HOW DO WE CHANGE THAT?

I WANT TO MENTION THAT IN TEXAS, I HAVE BEEN TOLD, THAT IN TEXAS SHERIFFS DO NOT HAVE CONTRACTUAL AUTHORITY.

ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF THE SHERIFF'S BOARD, JIM STUART, WAS A SHERIFF IN TEXAS AND HE SAID SHERIFFS THERE DON'T HAVE THAT AUTHORITY.

HE WAS SURPRISED THAT NEW MEXICO SHERIFFS HAVE CONTRACTUAL AUTHORITY.

SO THIS IS ONE AREA WE COULD LOOK AT FOR GREATER ACCOUNTABILITY.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO TALK SOME MORE ABOUT THE BOARD IN A MOMENT.

BUT ONE MORE QUESTION SORT OF ON THIS SYSTEMIC BIT WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING HERE.

WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING LIKE THIS STORY THAT HAS BROKEN IN THE LAST MONTH WHERE THE TOP ELECTED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL IN OUR COUNTY AND HIS NO.

2 GUY ARE ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN A BIG MULTI-STATE MACHINE GUN SCHEME, IN PARTICULAR, IN THE MIDDLE OF WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON IN OUR COMMUNITY.

WE HAVE HAD TONS OF RESIDENTS AND AN INCREASING NUMBER OF RESIDENTS DIE AND ARE WOUNDED BY BULLETS HERE.

THERE IS A GUN VIOLENCE EPIDEMIC IN OUR COMMUNITY.

SO WHEN PEOPLE SEE SOMETHING LIKE THIS, WHAT DOES THIS DO TO FAITH IN GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS AND LEADERS FOR THE PUBLIC?

ESPECIALLY AT A TIME WHEN THAT KIND OF FAITH IS ALREADY SORT OF WANING.

>> Layden: WELL, NOW, THIS CERTAINLY UNDERMINES FAITH IN THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT, ALTHOUGH, PERHAPS NOT IN THIS SHERIFF, WHO IS LOOKING INTO THIS MATTER.

TO HAVE WRITTEN LETTERS TO OBTAIN GUNS THAT PEOPLE THEN COULD SELL TO COLLECTORS AND OTHERS WHO WANT TO GET AHOLD OF MACHINE GUNS AND SHORT BARREL RIFLES, TO DO THAT, NOW, MATT REISEN'S ARTICLE SAID THAT THEY DON'T KNOW IF SHERIFF GONZALES BENEFITED FROM THIS ARRANGEMENT AND THAT IS SOMETHING WE STILL NEED TO FIND OUT.

AND THAT MAY BE A REASON WHY HE WASN'T CHARGED IN THIS INDICTMENT BUT WAS NAMED.

WE DON'T KNOW.

WE DON'T KNOW THE DEGREE OF HIS CULPABILITY, IF ANY.

>> Jeff: THOSE KIND OF QUESTIONS LEAVE DOUBT FOR THE PUBLIC TOO, RIGHT?

>> Layden: BUT WHY THE SHERIFF WOULD DO IT, WHY HIS UNDERSHERIFF WOULD DO IT, THAT IS THE QUESTION.

WHY WOULD THEY GO TO THIS TROUBLE TO WRITE THESE LETTERS TO OBTAIN THESE GUNS FOR OTHER PEOPLE APPARENTLY, FOR COLLECTORS AND GUN DEALERS, AND SO ON, AT A TIME WHEN GUNS ARE A MAJOR POLITICAL ISSUE AND PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE THROUGHOUT OUR COUNTRY AND ESPECIALLY HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

>> Jeff: I WANT TO GO TO A PAPER THAT YOU PREPARED FOR THE HISTORICAL SOCIETY OF NEW MEXICO ABOUT THE FORMATION, THE GOD PARTICLE, IF YOU WILL, OF THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE ADVISORY REVIEW BOARD.

IT SOUNDS LIKE MANNY'S TENURE IN OFFICE WAS A BIG CATALYST FOR THE CREATION OF THAT BOARD.

TELL ME SOMETHING ABOUT THAT BOARD ON WHICH YOU SIT, OF COURSE, AND HOW IT FUNCTIONS.

>> Layden: I WAS APPOINTED IN 2021.

THE BOARD WAS FORMED IN SEPTEMBER 2020 BY THE COUNTY COMMISSION.

THE ORDINANCE CREATING THE BOARD WAS WRITTEN BY JAMES COLLIE WHO WAS A MEMBER OF THE COUNTY COMMISSION FOR ONE YEAR.

HE STEPPED IN TO COMPLETE THE TERM OF MAGGIE HART STEBBINS WHO LEFT THE COUNTY COMMISSION FOR A STATE GOVERNMENT POSITION.

I INTERVIEWED JIM COLLIE AND ALSO INTERVIEWED MAGGIE.

JIM TOLD ME THAT WHEN HE JOINED THE COMMISSION, THAT IS ALL OTHER COMMISSIONERS TALKED ABOUT IS WHAT TO DO ABOUT THE SHERIFF.

>> Jeff: THAT FRUSTRATION YOU MENTIONED BEFORE.

>> Layden: OF PARTICULAR CONCERN WAS THE BODY CAMERAS AND THE INABILITY OF THE COMMISSION TO GET THE SHERIFF TO ADOPT BODY CAMERAS.

I WISH TO SAY FOR MYSELF I MET A SHERIFF'S DEPUTY WHERE I LIVE WITH HIS GUN AT THE READY.

HE WAS CHASING A SUSPECT AND THIS WAS BACK BEFORE BODY CAMERAS AND I ENDED UP WRITING THREE LETTERS TO THE JOURNAL ABOUT THIS.

ALBUQUERQUE POLICE CARRY BODY CAMERAS AND HAVE FOR YEARS, BUT THERE IS A SHERIFF'S DEPUTY IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD LOOKING FOR A SUSPECT WITH HIS GUN AT THE READY AND THERE IS GOING TO BE NO RECORD OF WHAT TOOK PLACE.

>> Jeff: WE TALKED TODAY ABOUT THIS STRUGGLE FOR ACCOUNTABILITY AND OVERSIGHT.

I KNOW THAT NEITHER OF THOSE WORDS IS IN THE TITLE OF THE BOARD YOU SIT ON BUT HOW IS IT SUPPOSED TO FUNCTION?

WHAT IS ITS RELATIONSHIP TO THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT AND WHAT ARE SOME OF ITS LIMITATIONS?

>> Layden: THE NAME OF THE BOARD IS THE BERNALILLO COUNTY SHERIFFS ADVISORY -- SHERIFF'S OFFICE ADVISORY AND REVIEW BOARD.

WE ARE NOT AN OVERSIGHT BOARD.

THIS ISSUE AROSE WHEN THE ORDINANCE WAS WRITTEN.

THIS ORDINANCE ISN'T LIKE THE INITIAL CIVILIAN POLICE OVERSIGHT AUTHORITY THAT WAS SET UP AT THE CITY WHICH WAS OVERSIGHT AND THEY WERE REVIEWING DISCIPLINARY CASES.

WE DON'T DO THAT.

WE ARE INTENDED TO PROVIDE ACCESS TO THE PUBLIC TO COME TO THE BOARD AND BRING THEIR ISSUES TO US AND THEY HAVE.

I MENTIONED THE ON-PATROL CASE ALSO.

THE SISTER OF ELISHA LUCERO, ELAINE MAESTAS CAME TO THE BOARD ABOUT THE KILLING OF HER SISTER BY SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES.

THE FAMILY HAD CALLED THE SHERIFF'S OFFICE FOR HELP.

THE SISTER IS MENTALLY ILL. SHE ALLEGEDLY CAME OUT WITH A KNIFE AND THEY KILLED HER WITH 21 BULLETS.

NOW, THIS WAS AN EXPENSIVE LAWSUIT AND IS ONE OF THE REASONS THE SHERIFFS BOARD WAS FORMED.

THIS LAWSUIT AND ANOTHER LAWSUIT INVOLVING THE KILLING OF ANOTHER MAN IN A TRUCK.

HE WAS AN INNOCENT PERSON BUT HE WAS IN A TRUCK THAT WAS BEING PURSUED BY SHERIFFS DEPUTIES.

THOSE TWO CASES, I BELIEVE, COST THE COUNTY ABOUT SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS.

SO IN TERMS OF THE FORMATION OF THE SHERIFF'S BOARD, THERE WAS CONCERN ABOUT THE LAWSUITS AS WELL AS THE ABSENCE OF BODY CAMERAS AND THE UNWILLINGNESS OF THE SHERIFF TO EVEN DISCUSS THAT SUBJECT.

>> Jeff: DOES MANNY PARTICIPATE WITH THE BOARD?

DOES HE ALLOW THAT BOARD TO ADVISE AND REVIEW HIS DEPARTMENT?

>> Layden: I MISSED MUCH OF THAT FIRST YEAR.

THE BOARD STARTED MEETING IN NOVEMBER, 2020.

I JOINED IN JUNE.

BUT I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT MANNY NEVER CAME TO A SHERIFF'S BOARD MEETING.

HIS UNDERSHERIFF, LARRY KOREN AND A COUPLE OF OTHER OF HIS LEADING PEOPLE DID COME TO SHERIFF'S BOARD MEETINGS.

WE DID HAVE A PRESENTATION ON HOW THE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE PROTECTS THE SCHOOLS.

THE CURRENT SHERIFF HAS BEEN MORE OPEN WITH OUR BOARD AND HAS SENT MORE OF HIS PEOPLE TO MEET WITH US.

>> Jeff: THAT SOUNDS LIKE A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

DIANE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN AND HELPING US UNDERSTAND THE CONTEXT FOR WHAT TAKES PLACE.

>> Layden: THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Ramirez: IF YOUNG PEOPLE HAD ACCESS TO FREE TRANSIT IT WOULD IMPACT ACCESS TO EDUCATION.

AND I THINK YOU MIGHT REMEMBER THERE IS A STORY WE MET A YOUNG PERSON WHO WAS A FRESHMAN AT HIGHLAND HIGH SCHOOL, 100 TARDIES AND HE WAS ON THE VERGE OF BEING SUSPENDED FROM HIGHLAND.

NO ONE AT HIGHLAND EVER ASKED HIM, WHAT IS MAKING YOU TARDY, RIGHT?

IT WAS BECAUSE HE HAD TO GET TWO BUSES TO GO TO A SCHOOL OF CHOICE AND BE A COHORT AT HIGHLAND.

RIGHT.

ACCESS TO EDUCATION.

ACCESS TO EMPLOYMENT.

WOULD IT BE EASIER TO FIND AND KEEP A JOB IF YOU HAD FREE TRANSIT.

97% OF BOYS OF COLOR TOLD US ABSOLUTELY, YES.

>> Lou: LAURA'S INTERVIEW ABOUT THE ZERO FARES PROGRAM IS COMING UP IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES.

RIGHT NOW, WE ARE WORKING TO BETTER UNDERSTAND THE REASONING BEHIND TWO BILLS ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL PASSED LAST WEEK, BOTH FROM COUNCILOR DAN LEWIS.

ONE ABOLISHED THE AIR QUALITY CONTROL BOARD, THE JOINT VENTURE BETWEEN ALBUQUERQUE AND BERNALILLO COUNTY.

THE OTHER SET A MORATORIUM ON NEW AIR QUALITY REGULATIONS UNTIL FEBRUARY OF NEXT YEAR.

TO GET A GRASP WHY CITY COUNCIL TOOK SUCH DRASTIC ACTION, WHICH THE COUNTY OPPOSED, OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS CAN SAT DOWN WITH NEW MEXICO ENVIRONMENTAL LAW CENTER'S LEGAL DIRECTOR, ERIC JANTZ.

THE TWO ALSO TALKED ABOUT HOW THIS ISN'T THE ONLY PLACE IN NEW MEXICO WHERE ELECTED OFFICIALS AND POLICYMAKERS HAVE FAVORED INDUSTRIES PLACING PROFITS OVER PEOPLE, AS JANTZ PUT IT.

>> Laura: ERIC JANTZ, WELCOME AT THE SHOW.

>> Jantz: THANK YOU, LAURA.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> Laura: SO, THE ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL LAST WEEK ABOLISHED, VOTED TO ABOLISH, THE ALBUQUERQUE BERNALILLO COUNTY AIR QUALITY CONTROL BOARD.

TO START WITH, WHAT DOES A BOARD LIKE THAT DO?

>> Jantz: SO THE AIR QUALITY CONTROL BOARD IS A BOARD CREATED BY NEW MEXICO STATUTE THAT IS -- THE MAIN JOB IS TO REGULATE THE AIR QUALITY WITHIN ALBUQUERQUE AND BERNALILLO COUNTY.

THE STATE ENVIRONMENT DEPARTMENT REGULATES AIR QUALITY OUTSIDE THE COUNTY BUT IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE AIR BOARD TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE OF US IN ALBUQUERQUE AND BERNALILLO COUNTY HAVE CLEAN AIR TO BREATHE.

>> Laura: SO, THIS BOARD THAT WAS ABOLISHED, WILL SOMETHING REPLACE IT?

>> Jantz: THAT IS THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT THIS LEGISLATION IS THAT IT PURGES THE CURRENT BOARD AND REPLACES IT WITH FOLKS WHO ARE PRESUMABLY MORE INDUSTRY FRIENDLY.

THE REALLY INTERESTING THING AND ACTUALLY KIND OF TROUBLING THING ABOUT THIS WHOLE PROCESS HAS BEEN THAT THESE BILLS ARE SPECIFICALLY TARGETING A PARTICULAR RULE-MAKING PROCEEDING, RIGHT.

SO INDUSTRY HASN'T BEEN HAPPY WITH THE WAY THINGS HAVE GONE AND SO RATHER THAN GO THROUGH THE DESIGNATED PROCESS, THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO SEEK SOME OTHER REDRESS.

>> Laura: WHAT IS THAT RULE MAKING PROCESS?

>> Jantz: THAT RULE MAKING INVOLVES A PETITION BEING FILED WITH THE BOARD, THE BOARD CAN DECIDE TO EITHER HEAR THE PETITION OR NOT.

IN THIS CASE THEY DID.

THE PETITION GETS HEARD AND CURRENTLY IS SCHEDULED FOR DECEMBER 4 THROUGH 8 AT THE CIVIC CENTER.

AND AT THAT POINT, EVERYBODY WHO IS INVOLVED, BOTH INDUSTRY AND PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPORTING THE RULE, WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PRESENT EXPERT WITNESSES AND EVIDENCE ABOUT WHY THE BOARD SHOULD MAKE -- SHOULD EITHER PASS THIS RULE, REJECT IT OR MAKE CHANGES TO IT AND PASS THAT.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE PROCESS REALLY HASN'T EVEN STARTED YET.

THE BOARD HASN'T HEARD ANY EVIDENCE, HASN'T MADE ANY DECISIONS.

THAT IS WHY THIS IS SO ALARMING, RIGHT, IS BECAUSE THE BOARD -- COUNCILOR LEWIS HAS SORT OF PUT A ROADBLOCK IN THIS LEGITIMATE AND LAWFUL PROCESS IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AT ALL.

>> Laura: SO, YOU HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH COMMUNITIES IN THE SOUTH VALLEY FOR THIS HEALTH ENVIRONMENT AND EQUITY IMPACTS RULE.

WHAT WOULD THAT RULE DO?

>> Jantz: ESSENTIALLY THIS RULE IDENTIFIES THE MOST OVERBURDENED COMMUNITIES, THOSE COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE THE MOST -- BIGGEST, HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF POLLUTING INDUSTRIES.

BUT ALSO THE ONES THAT HAVE THE MOST HEALTH IMPACTS, HAVE THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF POVERTY AND OTHER SOCIAL VULNERABILITIES THAT MAKE THEM MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO ILLNESS FROM AIR POLLUTION, FROM EXPOSURE TO AIR POLLUTIONS, AIR HAZARDS, RIGHT.

IT IDENTIFIES THOSE COMMUNITIES.

IT REQUIRES A PERMIT APPLICANT TO GO THROUGH A PROCESS OF IDENTIFYING WHO IS IN THE COMMUNITY, WHAT CONCENTRATIONS OF AIR CONTAMINANTS ARE IN THE COMMUNITY ALREADY, DOING RISK ANALYSES AND THEN THE ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH DEPARTMENT, WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ISSUING PERMITS, TAKES A LOOK AT THE REPORT THAT THE INDUSTRY GENERATES AND THAT COMMUNITIES HAVE THE ABILITY TO COMMENT ON AND MAKE A DECISION ABOUT WHAT SORT OF POLLUTION MITIGATION MONITORING AND REPORTING REQUIREMENTS THEY ARE GOING TO PUT ON A PARTICULAR OPERATION.

>> Laura: IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE A COMMUNITY WHO IS CONFRONTED WITH LEGACY POLLUTION AND NEW POLLUTING INDUSTRIES MOVING IN HAVE WORKED TOGETHER WITHIN THE SYSTEM TO MOVE FORWARD PROTECTIONS FOR THEIR PUBLIC HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT AND NOW THE ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCIL HAS STOPPED THAT PROCESS OR HARMED THAT PROCESS.

WHY DO YOU THINK COUNCILOR LEWIS AND FOUR OF HIS COLLEAGUES WOULD DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

>> Jantz: I THINK THAT IS A QUESTION FOR THE COUNCILORS.

MY SUSPICION IS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THIS RULE, EVEN THOUGH THERE ISN'T A RULE YET, THERE IS A PROPOSED RULE, BUT, AS I SAID, THE BOARD HASN'T MADE ANY DECISIONS, THAT THIS PROPOSED RULE IS GOING TO COMPLETELY SHUT DOWN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN BERNALILLO COUNTY.

I MEAN THAT IS NONSENSE.

WE HEAR THIS ALL THE TIME AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING WITH COMMUNITIES PROFESSIONALLY FOR 20 YEARS.

AND EVERY TIME THERE IS A NEW SORT OF REGULATION PROPOSED OR RULE PROPOSED OR LAW PROPOSED, THE FIRST THING WE ALWAYS HEAR IS THIS IS GOING TO DESTROY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN THE COUNTY, THE CITY, THE STATE OR WHEREVER, RIGHT?

INVARIABLY THESE INDUSTRIES ARE ABLE TO ADAPT TO THE NEW REGULATORY LANDSCAPE.

IT IS JUST A MATTER OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE THE POLITICAL OR THE WILL TO DO THAT.

THERE IS PERHAPS SOME ECONOMIC DISLOCATION BUT ECONOMIC RUIN HAS NEVER HAPPENED.

>> Laura: SO, I MEAN, THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS PASSED INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT ENVIRONMENTAL LEGISLATION IN THE 1960'S AND 70'S.

AND AMERICANS OVERWHELMINGLY WANT THINGS LIKE CLEAN DRINKING WATER, CLEAN AIR AND CLEAN WATER AND YET OVER TIME THOSE LAWS ARE CONSISTENTLY WEAKENED OR LIKE WE SEE HERE, NEW RULES AND REGULATIONS AREN'T ALLOWED TO GO FORWARD.

WHY IS THAT?

>> Jantz: HONESTLY, LAURA, I THINK IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO PROFITS OVER PEOPLE.

SQUEEZING THE LAST LITTLE BIT OF PROFIT OUT OF EVERY OPERATION, I THINK, FOR SOME PEOPLE MATTERS MORE THAN THE COMMON GOOD OF BEING ABLE TO PROTECT PEOPLES' HEALTH.

IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE ULTIMATELY PROTECTING PEOPLES' HEALTH AND HAVING CLEAN AIR, WATER, LAND, WHATEVER, IS A LOT MORE ECONOMICALLY BENEFICIAL FOR THE WHOLE RATHER THAN KEEPING SORT OF DIRTY AIR, DIRTY WATER, DIRTY LAND, RIGHT.

WHEN THE CLEAN AIR ACT WAS PASSED, YOU KNOW, INDUSTRY SQUAWKED ABOUT HOW IT WAS GOING TO RUIN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BUT IT TURNS OUT STUDY AFTER STUDY HAS SHOWN THAT THE RETURN TO ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT FROM HAVING CLEAN AIR UNDER THE CLEAN AIR ACT OUTWEIGHS THE COST OF COMPLIANCE BY LIKE 30 TO 1.

>> Laura: SO, I THINK YOU AND I HAVE KNOWN EACH OTHER FOR CLOSE TO 20 YEARS.

WE FIRST MET WHEN YOU WERE WORKING WITH THE NAVAJO NATION TO BAN URANIUM MINING WITHIN THE NAVAJO NATION.

YOU HAVE WORKED WITH COMMUNITIES ALL ACROSS NEW MEXICO WHO FACE CHALLENGES IN HAVING EITHER LEGACY OR NEW POLLUTING INDUSTRIES, WHO LACK ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER, CLEAN AIR, A SAFE ENVIRONMENT.

WHAT DO THOSE COMMUNITIES HAVE IN COMMON THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE LOTS OF OUR AUDIENCE MEMBERS JUST TAKE FOR GRANTED?

>> I THINK THAT SORT OF THE THREAD THAT RUNS THROUGH EVERYTHING IS COMMUNITIES ARE LARGELY COMMUNITIES OF COLOR AND OFTEN LOW INCOME.

AND THERE HAS BEEN A WEALTH OF RESEARCH OVER THE DECADES SHOWING THAT THE BEST PREDICTOR OF WHERE POLLUTING INDUSTRY GETS SITED IS WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A COMMUNITY OF COLOR NEARBY.

>> Laura: YOU KNOW, I KEEP THINKING ABOUT HOW THERE ARE ALL THESE LAWS IN PLACE AND THERE IS A SYSTEM IN PLACE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN PLACE TO PROTECT PEOPLE FROM POLLUTION, FROM UNSAFE CONDITIONS AND I FEEL LIKE WE SEE TIME AND TIME AGAIN COMMUNITIES IN NEW MEXICO WHO TRY TO WORK WITHIN THE EXISTING STRUCTURE AND THE EXISTING SYSTEM, FOR INSTANCE, WITH THE HEALTH IMPACT OR THE HEALTH ENVIRONMENT EQUITY IMPACT RULE.

WORKING WITHIN THE STRUCTURE THAT EXISTS.

AND THEN YOU HAVE ELECTED LEADERS WHO COME IN AND CHANGE THE SYSTEM, CHANGE THE RULES.

WHAT ARE PEOPLE SUPPOSED TO DO?

>> Jantz: THAT IS A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

I MEAN, THE COMMUNITIES WHO FACE THESE ISSUES ARE REALLY USED TO THAT SORT OF GAME OF WHACK-A-MOLE AND VERY ADAPTABLE.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT AS THIS PROCESS UNWINDS, WHICHEVER WAY IT GOES, THE COMMUNITY FOLKS THAT WE ARE WORKING WITH AND THE VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES THROUGHOUT BERNALILLO COUNTY WILL ADAPT TO IT.

I MEAN, THEY ARE NOT GOING AWAY.

THEY ARE COMMITTED TO MAKING SURE THAT THEIR AIR, THE AIR THEY AND THEIR FAMILIES BREATHE IS CLEAN AND REALLY THE AIR THAT ALL OF US IN BERNALILLO COUNTY BREATHE IS CLEAN.

BUT, YEAH, I MEAN, WE SEE THIS ALL THE TIME.

IT IS JUST A MATTER OF HAVING TO BE CREATIVE AND ADAPT.

>> Laura: LASTLY, WHAT SHOULD THE REST OF ALBUQUERQUE PEOPLE UP IN THE NORTHEAST HEIGHTS, PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, IN COMMUNITIES THAT MAYBE AREN'T IMPACTED BY THESE VERY POLLUTING INDUSTRIES, YOU KNOW, HOW DO PEOPLE NEED TO BETTER SUPPORT THEIR NEIGHBORS AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS?

>> Jantz: AGAIN, THIS DOESN'T IMPACT -- POOR AIR QUALITY DOESN'T JUST IMPACT DISADVANTAGED OR VULNERABLE COMMUNITIES, UNDER-RESOURCED COMMUNITIES.

THEY IMPACT ALL OF US.

IT IS JUST A MATTER OF WHEN.

IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN SOONER OR LATER.

AND SO, FOLKS WHO DON'T LIVE IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR OR LOW INCOME COMMUNITIES, OR COMMUNITIES THAT ARE VULNERABLE BECAUSE OF SOCIAL DETERMINATES OF HEALTH, LIKE POVERTY, ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE, FOOD INSECURITY, THINGS LIKE THAT, CAN SUPPORT THOSE COMMUNITIES AND THEMSELVES BY GETTING ENGAGED IN PROCESSES LIKE THIS.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, URGING THE MAYOR TO VETO THE PIECES OF LEGISLATION AND IF HE DOES THAT AND THE COUNCIL DECIDES THEY WANT TO TRY TO OVERRIDE THE VETO, MAKING SURE THEIR COUNCILOR VOTES THE RIGHT WAY.

>> Laura: RIGHT.

THANK YOU ERIC.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> Jantz: MY PLEASURE, THANKS FOR HAVING ME, LAURA.

>> Lou: BE SURE TO SIGN UP FOR THE OUR LAND NEWSLETTER TO STAY UP TO DATE ON OTHER DEVELOPING ENVIRONMENTAL STORIES AROUND THE STATE.

YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AT NMPBS.ORG/NEWMEXICOINFOCUS.

NOW IN A DIFFERENT DECISION EARLIER THIS MONTH, CITY COUNCILORS VOTED 6-3 TO KEEP BUS FARES FREE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

THAT'S AFTER A REPORT FROM THE CITY'S TRANSIT DEPARTMENT FOUND NO CONNECTION BETWEEN VIOLENT CRIME AND FREE RIDES.

THE DECISION TO COMMENCE WHAT WAS A TWO-YEAR PILOT PROGRAM AS A PERMANENT FEATURE OF THE CITY'S PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM.

IN A SEGMENT WE FIRST RAN LAST MARCH LAURA SPOKE TO TWO TRANSIT ADVOCATES FROM TOGETHER FOR BROTHERS TO DISCUSS THEIR PUSH TO KEEP ALBUQUERQUE'S BUS SYSTEM FREE FOR EVERYONE IN THE CITY.

>> Laura: CHRISTOPHER, ALTHEA, THANKS FOR BEING HERE TODAY.

>> Ramirez: THANKS FOR INVITING US.

>> Laura: I WANTED TO START LET'S TALK ABOUT BUSES IN ALBUQUERQUE.

WHO RIDES THEM?

WHY ARE THEY FOR?

>> Ramirez: ABSOLUTELY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS GREAT AND I THINK YOU KNOW THIS, TOGETHER FOR BROTHERS HAS BEEN DOING COMMUNITY-BASED RESEARCH AROUND TRANSPORTATION SINCE 2017.

WE WERE FUNDED BY THE KELLOGG FOUNDATION AND NEW MEXICO HEALTH EQUITY PARTNERSHIP TO REALLY LOOK INTO YOUTH AND TRANSPORTATION AND WE HAVE LEARNED A LOT ABOUT BUS RIDERS.

WHAT IS ALSO GREAT IS EVERY FIVE YEARS, ALBUQUERQUE IS REQUIRED BY THE FEDERAL TRANSPORTATION ADMINISTRATION, FTA, TO DO ON-BOARD SURVEYS WITH BUS RIDERS SO WE LEARN ABOUT THEM AND ALSO THAT WE CAN VERIFY WE ARE NOT ENGAGING IN ANY CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS.

SO FEBRUARY AND MARCH OF 2022, AS ZERO FARES WAS LAUNCHING, WE HAVE THIS INCREDIBLE DATA TOOL OF THE ON-BOARD SURVEY THAT SAYS SOME IMPORTANT THINGS ABOUT BUS RIDERS IN ALBUQUERQUE.

ONE THING, 80% OF BUS RIDERS IDENTIFIED ON AVERAGE AS HAVING A HOUSEHOLD INCOME LESS THAN $25,000.

SO THAT IS BASICALLY LIVING IN POVERTY, RIGHT.

A LOT OF OUR BUS RIDERS ARE ECONOMICALLY IN THAT, ONE OF THE LOWEST CATEGORIES IN TERMS OF HOUSEHOLD INCOME.

THE OTHER THING WE WANT TO ALSO SHARE IS WE LEARNED IN THAT ONBOARD SURVEY, 60% OF BUS RIDERS DO NOT HAVE A DRIVER'S LICENSE OR IDENTIFICATION.

AND THAT IS IMPORTANT AS WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT IN A LITTLE BIT THAT ONE OF THE PROPOSED CHANGES TO ZERO FARES WAS A PASS WHICH WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ZERO FARES, BUT WE LITERALLY HAVE 60% OF BUS RIDERS WHO DON'T HAVE ID'S TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE SENIOR, TO PROVE THEIR AGE, TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE WHO THEY SAY THEY ARE.

SO, THAT IS IMPORTANT TOO.

AND WE KNOW THAT ESPECIALLY IMPACTS PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS WHO FIND IT HARD TO HAVE AND KEEP AN ID.

THAT IS VALID.

>> Atherton: IT IS A WIDER RANGE OF PEOPLE THAN I THINK PEOPLE GIVE CREDIT FOR.

I THINK PEOPLE LIKE ME, SOME HAVE LIKE A MEDICAL REASON TO NOT WANT TO DRIVE OR EVEN SOME OF MY FRIENDS WHO HAVE ANXIETY ABOUT THE ROAD CONDITIONS HERE, PEDESTRIAN FATALITY RATES, THINGS LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, END UP DECIDING THAT THE BUS, EVEN IF THEY ARE ONLY SOMETIMES USING IT, A BETTER WAY TO GO.

AND YOU KNOW I SEE A LOT OF STUDENTS AT CNM, UNM AROUND THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS USING IT.

SO, YOU KNOW, ALSO A LOT OF SENIORS WHO MAYBE JUST LIKE DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH DRIVING ANYMORE, WHETHER THEY CAN OR THEY HAVE DECIDED NOT TO FOR MEDICAL REASONS AS WELL, IT ENDS UP BEING A PRETTY DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE ON MY DAILY RIDES.

>> Laura: ZERO FARES.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HOW THAT PROGRAM BENEFITS ANYBODY IN ALBUQUERQUE BUT IN PARTICULAR YOUNG MEN OF COLOR AND THEIR FAMILIES.

>> Ramirez: ABSOLUTELY.

I AM GOING TO TAKE US BACK ALL THE WAY TO 2018.

WE FINISHED DOING A YEAR OF COMMUNITY BASED RESEARCH, HEALTH IMPACT ASSESSMENT.

THIS IS WHAT IT TOLD US.

IF YOUNG PEOPLE HAD ACCESS, IT WOULD IMPACT THEIR ACCESS TO EDUCATION.

I THINK YOU MIGHT REMEMBER THERE WAS A STORY, WE MET A YOUNG PERSON WHO WAS A FRESHMAN AT HIGHLAND HIGH SCHOOL.

100 TARDIES.

HE WAS ON THE VERGE OF BEING SUSPENDED FROM HIGHLAND.

NO ONE AT HIGHLAND HAD EVER ASKED THEM, WHAT IS MAKING YOU TARDY, RIGHT?

AND IT WAS BECAUSE HE HAD TO GET TWO BUSES TO GET TO A SCHOOL OF CHOICE AND BE A COHORT AT HIGHLAND.

RIGHT.

ACCESS TO EDUCATION.

ACCESS TO EMPLOYMENT.

IT WOULD BE EASIER TO FIND AND KEEP A JOB IF YOU HAD FREE TRANSIT.

97% OF BOYS AND YOUNG MEN OF COLOR TOLD US ABSOLUTELY YES.

RIGHT, ACCESS TO RECREATION.

WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO GET TO QUALITY PARKS AND OUTDOOR SPACES, ABSOLUTELY, RIGHT.

IN THE 90'S AGAIN.

THE OTHER THING THAT WAS A SURPRISE AS WE WERE DOING SURVEYS, INTERVIEWS, FOCUS GROUPS, WE LEARNED -- WE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS.

HEALTHY, LIKE, YOU NEED TO EXERCISE, BUT THE OTHER THING THAT A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE, WHICH IS PROBABLY NO SURPRISE TO YOU BECAUSE OF THE NEWS THAT YOU DONE ABOUT FOOD SECURITY, IS THE INTERNATIONAL DISTRICT AND WESTGATE, THE MOST IMPACTED TRANSIT DEPARTMENT, LIKE HOUSEHOLDS ACCESS TO HEALTHY FOOD WAS ANOTHER IMPORTANT FACTOR, RIGHT, FREE TRANSIT WOULD DO THAT.

WE LEARNED THAT IN 2018, WE PUSHED FOR FREE STUDENT PASSES AND THEN SOMETHING GREAT HAPPENED IN 2019.

WE WERE INTRODUCED TO THIS NEW NATIONAL DAY OF ACTION ON ROSA PARKS' BIRTHDAY ON FEBRUARY 4.

WE USED THAT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO DO SOMETHING, TO MAKE A CALL FOR FREE TRANSIT FOR EVERYONE.

WE PASSED OUR FIRST RESOLUTION WITH THE TRANSIT ADVISORY BOARD IN 2019.

CITY COUNCIL VOTED IN SUPPORT OF FREE TRANSIT BUT WE MISSED A REALLY IMPORTANT ELEMENT, THEY DIDN'T ADD ANYTHING TO THE BUDGET.

SO IN 2021 SOMETHING MAGICAL HAPPENED BECAUSE WE DID IT IN 2020, AGAIN.

AND IN 2021 THEN COUNCILOR SENA FOUND THE THREE MILLION DOLLARS FOR THE PILOT PROGRAM FOR ZERO FARES.

THAT IS WHERE WE ARE AT, RIGHT.

>> Laura: I CAN IMAGINE HOW IMPORTANT BUSES ARE FOR PEOPLE TO ACCESS DIFFERENT SERVICES AND DIFFERENT PLACES ALL ACROSS THE CITY.

SO, FOR THE ZERO FARES PROGRAM, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT IT HAS AFFECTED PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO DO THINGS OUTSIDE IN ADDITION TO REACHING YOUR JOB OR YOUR SCHOOL?

>> Atherton: IT HAS DEFINITELY HELPED A GREAT AMOUNT BECAUSE I KNOW I WAS ON THE ART BUS A FEW MONTHS AGO AND TALKING TO SOMEONE AND SHE SAID SHE TAKES THE BUS TO THE BOSQUE EVERY SUNSET.

THAT IS HER THING.

EVERY SUNSET SHE LIKES TO CATCH THE SUNSET THERE AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT ZERO FARES AND HOW THAT MAKES THAT AN AFFORDABLE DECISION FOR HER AND AN AFFORDABLE WAY TO GET TO A BEAUTIFUL PLACE TO WATCH THE SUNSET EVERYDAY.

I THINK ABOUT ONE OF THE HEALTH CLINICS WHERE I ACCESS MEDICAL CARE, ALAMOSA COMMUNITY CENTER, THAT IS A GREAT ACCESSIBLE BY BUS LOCATION.

EVEN THOUGH IT IS PRETTY FAR FROM MY HOUSE I CHOOSE TO GO TO THAT ONE BECAUSE I KNOW I CAN GET THERE PRETTY RELIABLY BY THE BUS.

SO, IT JUST KIND OF OPENS UP DOORS FOR SO MANY PEOPLE AND EVEN IF PEOPLE COULD AFFORD THE SERVICE BEFORE, THE SERVICE IS BETTER NOW THAT IT IS ZERO FARE.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WAIT FOR EVERYBODY COUNTING NICKELS, MAKING SURE THEY HAVE THE FARE.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO WITNESS THE FARE COMPLEX BETWEEN THE DRIVERS AND RIDERS.

EVERYBODY GETS ON THE BUS AND GOES.

IT HAS MADE ME WANT TO TAKE THE BUS MORE AS SOMEONE WHO COULD WALK SOME PLACES AND TAKE THE BUS SOME PLACES, I AM LIKE, OH NO, IT WILL BE SO FAST TO GET ON THE BUS AND THERE WILL BE FEWER CONFLICTS IN GENERAL.

AS TO HOW IT USED TO BE.

>> Laura: I CAN IMAGINE THAT.

LIKE, OBVIOUSLY, I WOULD BE ABLE TO PAY THE FARE BUT I KNOW LIKE AS A RIDER LIKE IN A NEW CITY OR SOME PLACE, I GET FLUSTERED, LIKE DO I NEED TO HAVE AN ID, DO I NEED A PUNCH CARD, DO I NEED EXACT CHANGE?

I CAN SEE HOW THE ZERO FARES HAS IMPACTS BEYOND -- >> Atherton: HONESTLY, EVEN JUST NOT TAKING OUT MY PURSE AND DIGGING THROUGH TO FIND MY ID.

I HAD FREE FARES BEFORE AS A CNM STUDENT, YOU KNOW, LIKE EVEN NOT HAVING TO DIG OUT FOR MY PURSE AND, YOU KNOW, JUST REDUCES STRESS SO I AM WAY LESS FLUSTERED WHEN I AM ON THE BUS.

I JUST HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT MY MASK.

>> Ramirez: CAN I ADD THAT ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE SEEING WITH ZERO FARES TOO IS I LOVE HEARING FROM SOME MORE COMMUNITY PARTNERS BECAUSE WE HAVE HEARD FROM OTHER SERVICE PROVIDERS LIKE ALBUQUERQUE HEALTH FOR THE HOMELESS.

THEY HAVE SEEN A SIGNIFICANT DECREASE IN NO SHOWS OR LATE SHOWS FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE GETTING SERVICES BECAUSE PREVIOUSLY, TO GET TO THEIR SERVICE, YOU HAD TO HAVE A BUS PASS.

THAT IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST BARRIERS FOR PEOPLE EXPERIENCING HOMELESSNESS TO ACCESS HEALTHCARE.

WE ALSO HEARD FROM THE RESOURCE CENTER THAT CLIENTS THAT GO TO THE RESOURCE CENTER DIDN'T HAVE AS MANY CONFLICTS WITH DRIVERS, RIGHT, ABOUT THEIR ID'S OR NOT HAVING FARES AND BEING HARASSED.

SO I THINK THOSE ARE REALLY POSITIVE OUTCOMES TO ZERO FARES.

IT IS GET ON AND GO.

IT IS THAT EASY.

>> Laura: LASTLY, WHAT IS THE STATUS OF THE ZERO FARES PROGRAM AND WHAT DO YOU ANTICIPATE MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE NEXT WEEKS, MONTHS.

>> Atherton: RIGHT NOW WE HAVE OUR YEAR OF OUR PILOT STILL GOING ON AND THEN THEY JUST EXTENDED TIME FOR A STUDY TO SEPTEMBER TO SEE HOW THINGS ARE GOING WITH THE FIXED ROUTES.

AND, IN ADDITION, THERE IS A NEW BILL THAT WAS JUST PROPOSED TO THE CITY COUNCIL.

THEY HAVE TO DO AN EQUITY STUDY ON IT FIRST, THAT WOULD MAKE THE ARTS BUS AND PARA-TRANSIT, THE SUN VAN, FREE FOR EVERYBODY PERMANENTLY, WHICH WOULD BE A FANTASTIC PROGRAM THAT I THINK WOULD BE, YEAH, JUST ONE OF THE BEST THINGS WE CAN DO.

OF COURSE I WANT IT TO BE THE FIXED ROUTE SERVICES TOO BUT IT'S A GREAT PLACE TO START.

>> Ramirez: AGAIN, WHAT WE ARE EXCITED FOR IS THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PLANS REALLY CALLS FOR COMMUNITY INPUT AND FOR COMMUNITY LED SOLUTIONS TO TRANSIT SECURITY THAT DON'T RELY JUST ON LAW ENFORCEMENT.

OTHER COMMUNITIES ARE LOOKING TO ALBUQUERQUE.

WE RECENTLY ATTENDED A NATIONAL CONVENTION IN DC.

THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE ARE MOVING TOWARDS.

I THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE HEARD DC JUST BEAT US OUT AS THE LARGEST CITY WITH FREE BUSES IN THE COUNTRY.

THERE ARE ABOUT 100,000 PEOPLE MORE THAN ALBUQUERQUE.

AND WE ARE HAPPY TO LET THEM TAKE THAT MONIKER BEING THE LARGEST CITY WITH FREE BUSES.

BUT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TO ALBUQUERQUE AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT THE FUTURE LOOKS LIKE FOR PUBLIC TRANSIT.

>> Laura: AWESOME.

THANK YOU BOTH.

>> Lou: YOU CAN FIND MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE CITY'S ZERO FARES PROGRAM UNDER THIS STORY NMPBS.ORG OR THE NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS YOUTUBE PAGE.

NOW, WE END TONIGHT ON A NEW REPORT THAT SHOWS NEW MEXICO STUDENTS WITH DISABILITIES ARE STILL STRUGGLING, DESPITE MAJOR INCREASES IN SPECIAL EDUCATION FUNDING.

THE LEGISLATIVE FINANCE COMMITTEE FOUND MANY PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAVEN'T USED ALL OF THE STATE AND FEDERAL DOLLARS AVAILABLE TO THEM.

THE REPORT ALSO SHOWS THE PUBLIC EDUCATION DEPARTMENT FAILED IN ITS DUTY TO OVERSEE AND STANDARDIZE THE ROLLOUT OF FEDERALLY MANDATED SPECIAL EDUCATION SERVICES.

OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS, PER STUDENT SPENDING FOR KIDS WITH DISABILITIES HAS RISEN 60% BUT ONLY ABOUT 2/3 OF DISABLED PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS GRADUATE FROM HIGH SCHOOL.

AND THE NUMBER OF FOURTH GRADERS WITH A DISABILITY WHO CAN READ ACTUALLY WENT DOWN FROM 5% IN 2013 TO JUST 3% LAST YEAR.

THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THE SHOW AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.